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View Full Version : OT: Capital Gains tax


zdoor
03-28-2012, 08:31 PM
I'm pretty likely to me a transaction in the next few weeks that will yield significant capital gains. I live in California, and the transaction will occur in the same state, subjecting me to 10.5% state capital gains plus almost 15% federal capital gains tax. Read through a bunch of online material and found a few things but wondering if anyone here has had any success minimalizing capital gains taxes and what strategy they used? Any help is appreciatted...

TheReverend
03-28-2012, 08:32 PM
The best I've managed is shuffling things around to try and maximize any potential previous year carry forwards... Good luck!

Dr. Broncenstein
03-28-2012, 08:35 PM
You could launder the money.

zdoor
03-28-2012, 08:37 PM
You could launder the money.

Lol... That defintely fall in line with my heritage...


I'm going to use all my loss carry overs and try to account for every expense I've had over the years on the investment, but I'm still looking at a royal screwing by the government. Any other ideas?

Dedhed
03-28-2012, 08:39 PM
Get an accountant.

TheReverend
03-28-2012, 08:40 PM
Lol... That plus defintely fall in line with my heritage...


I'm going to use all my loss carry overs and try to account for every expense I've had over the years on the investment, but I'm still looking at a royal screwing by the government. Any other ideas?

Can you massage valuations?

I mean, do you really remember what you bought it at? It could very well have been twice that amount and your memory is off

Dr. Broncenstein
03-28-2012, 08:40 PM
Lol... That plus defintely fall in line with my heritage...


I'm going to use all my loss carry overs and try to account for every expense I've had over the years on the investment, but I'm still looking at a royal screwing by the government. Any other ideas?

I'm actually getting a refund this year for the first and only time in my career. All I had to do was buy a 90 thousand dollar geothermal system. Lol.

Dedhed
03-28-2012, 08:41 PM
It could very well have been twice that amount and your memory is off
Lulz. I did your style.

zdoor
03-28-2012, 08:41 PM
Get an accountant.

Have a decent one and i'm meeting with a referred financial planner next week. Just looking for anything someone else did that worked.

Dedhed
03-28-2012, 08:43 PM
I'm actually getting a refund this year for the first and only time in my career. All I had to do was buy a 90 thousand dollar geothermal system. Lol.

Lol. I put in a solar paneling system on a barn in 2010, and the bastards still took my money.

zdoor
03-28-2012, 08:43 PM
Can you massage valuations?

I mean, do you really remember what you bought it at? It could very well have been twice that amount and your memory is off

Bought 50% in '97 and the other 50 in 2007. Have all the docs but thought about estimating some of the 1997 purchase. Kinda makes my ass pucker though...

Dedhed
03-28-2012, 08:44 PM
Have a decent one and i'm meeting with a referred financial planner next week. Just looking for anything someone else did that worked.

Define "worked".

zdoor
03-28-2012, 08:44 PM
I'm actually getting a refund this year for the first and only time in my career. All I had to do was buy a 90 thousand dollar geothermal system. Lol.

Thinking about spending some of the money on solar...

zdoor
03-28-2012, 08:45 PM
Define "worked".

Didn't go to jail??

MrPeepers
03-28-2012, 08:46 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_gains_tax_in_the_United_States

do it this year. if you held it longer than a year your good. consider selling anything you are at a loss on, might help offset it and get you out of your dogs.

rugbythug
03-28-2012, 08:46 PM
I am assuming you can not do a 1030 Exchange correct?

ColoradoDarin
03-28-2012, 08:46 PM
Anything you can currently sell at a loss (even if you want to buy it back, just have to wait 30 days) to off set some of it?

Dr. Broncenstein
03-28-2012, 08:47 PM
Lol. I put in a solar paneling system on a barn in 2010, and the bastards still took my money.

30% tax credit no cap on geothermal systems. Not to mention my power company gave me a twelve thousand dollar credit.

zdoor
03-28-2012, 08:50 PM
I am assuming you can not do a 1030 Exchange correct?

As far as I know that can only be done with real estate... This isnt real estate...

zdoor
03-28-2012, 08:51 PM
30% tax credit no cap on geothermal systems. Not to mention my power company gave me a twelve thousand dollar credit.

That's not bad...I should compare it to solar...

ak1971
03-28-2012, 08:53 PM
I get a big jar a Vaseline every quarter and get prepared to get ****ed

zdoor
03-28-2012, 08:59 PM
I get a big jar a Vaseline every quarter and get prepared to get ****ed

Yeah, me too. It's killing me thinking of paying more tax on something I bought with money I've already paid tax on...

rugbythug
03-28-2012, 08:59 PM
As far as I know that can only be done with real estate... This isnt real estate...

I thought (with no basis in actual research or anything) That it was a like kind. IE- art for art. Real Estate for Real Estate etc... But I am accruing not selling and I am a long way from creating a capital gains issue.

Dedhed
03-28-2012, 09:00 PM
Didn't go to jail??
I tell my accountant exactly that; keep as much of my money as is possible while making sure there's no chance I end up in the clink.

rugbythug
03-28-2012, 09:00 PM
Yeah, me too. It's killing me thinking of paying more tax on something I bought with money I've already paid tax on...

Well lets be honest your not. Your paying tax on the value gained. So you have that going for you.

Dedhed
03-28-2012, 09:01 PM
I get a big jar a Vaseline every quarter and get prepared to get ****ed
I have that same jar.

Dr. Broncenstein
03-28-2012, 09:02 PM
Yeah, me too. It's killing me thinking of paying more tax on something I bought with money I've already paid tax on...

Don't let it actually kill you, because you'll owe another tax on top of the other two.

zdoor
03-28-2012, 09:04 PM
Well lets be honest your not. Your paying tax on the value gained. So you have that going for you.

True. But, the government took no risk, and had no hand in the profit. BS that I get no say in where 25% of the money goes...

Punisher
03-28-2012, 09:05 PM
Yeah, me too. It's killing me thinking of paying more tax on something I bought with money I've already paid tax on...

It sucks when your living a blue collar life and all the scumbag stereotypes on welfare are the ones really living the American dream

Dedhed
03-28-2012, 09:17 PM
30% tax credit no cap on geothermal systems. Not to mention my power company gave me a twelve thousand dollar credit.

I get the same 30%, and max of $15k in buy-back from the utility.

R8R H8R
03-28-2012, 09:20 PM
Lol... That defintely fall in line with my heritage...


I'm going to use all my loss carry overs and try to account for every expense I've had over the years on the investment, but I'm still looking at a royal screwing by the government. Any other ideas?

It looks like your accountant has already given you your realistic options. What is the financial planner for? If it is to suggest tax shelters, just be carefull. I.E. what is the loss needed to offset the gain, and how long does it take to recoop the loss, etc? Be wary of limited partnerships, never had a client of t mine ever brag about a ltd partnership they are in(I'm an inv. advisor). in other words, if the investment is itself a bad one, what good was the supposed tax break?
Good luck.

That One Guy
03-28-2012, 09:24 PM
I've always heard the answer is to sell at a loss and buy parallel stocks. For example, you can't buy your particular stock back for 30 days and declare a loss but if you buy the same industry and you expect the two stocks to mirror each other, then you're fine.

Or just be like me and don't make any money. Slow & steady on the SPY, DIS, and until recently, GE. Not a lot gained, none lost, and the taxes are simple.

BroncoBuff
03-28-2012, 10:30 PM
30% tax credit no cap on geothermal systems. Not to mention my power company gave me a twelve thousand dollar credit.

So you're running on self-installed geo-thermal .... I'm taxing my memory here, but is your place country club-adjacent, somewhere in MO/AK? It's been a few years, but somebody here was renovating their grounds, beautiful verandas. Very nice.

Broncojef
03-28-2012, 11:16 PM
Just pay the tax as soon as possible and be happy
Soon the capital gains will be taxed at a higher rate
To be "fair". I sold a company to saveon the taxes
That will soon hit.

Broncojef
03-28-2012, 11:19 PM
By the way capital gains tax in Colorado is
Only 5 percent, federal 15, move closer to the
Broncos!

Irish Stout
03-28-2012, 11:21 PM
As far as I know that can only be done with real estate... This isnt real estate...

Not true, can be done with certain like kind properties. Did you know that same specie animals but different sexes are not like kind property? Probably screws you up here.

strafen
03-28-2012, 11:48 PM
I'm actually getting a refund this year for the first and only time in my career. All I had to do was buy a 90 thousand dollar geothermal system. Lol.

ROFL!

Pseudofool
03-28-2012, 11:53 PM
Heaven forbid people get taxed on money they make without actually working for it. Oh my, poor people with money to invest. What a craptastic sense of dignity the people of this country have. Make your money, pay your taxes, and quit whining.

Jetmeck
03-29-2012, 12:03 AM
Get rich and vote repubiclan. Until then us poor folks have to pay ours.
Romney is a joke to all you people poking at the democrats so enjoy another four years of straightening up the mess that last ex gov ,white, good ole boy left us with.

Spend money on wars and rich ,corporate tax breaks but you damn well better not spend anything on the people like health care cause we are broke after spending it all as said above,,,,,,,,,,,,, tards.

Pay those taxes.....if the stupids get their wish we will have another retard ex gov for pres and maybe he can invest your dough rebuilding another middle eastern country after they blow it up..... LOL

Pseudofool
03-29-2012, 12:06 AM
Don't let it actually kill you, because you'll owe another tax on top of the other two.The woes of rich people. Getting taxed when getting money they didn't work for ("investment") and giving it to people who didn't work for it ("inherentence"). What does this country have--a sense of justice and equity?

Dr. Broncenstein
03-29-2012, 12:23 AM
The woes of rich people. Getting taxed when getting money they didn't work for ("investment") and giving it to people who didn't work for it ("inherentence"). What does this country have--a sense of justice and equity?

I know it's crazy rich people behavior to want to pass on your accumulated wealth that was already taxed to your children without the government taking a second and third cut. Someday if you have money and children you might feel the same way.

R8R H8R
03-29-2012, 01:27 AM
Get rich and vote repubiclan. Until then us poor folks have to pay ours.
Romney is a joke to all you people poking at the democrats so enjoy another four years of straightening up the mess that last ex gov ,white, good ole boy left us with.

Spend money on wars and rich ,corporate tax breaks but you damn well better not spend anything on the people like health care cause we are broke after spending it all as said above,,,,,,,,,,,,, tards.

Pay those taxes.....if the stupids get their wish we will have another retard ex gov for pres and maybe he can invest your dough rebuilding another middle eastern country after they blow it up..... LOL

Quit insulting Clinton; besides, he is no longer eligible for Prez.

Dr. Broncenstein
03-29-2012, 02:51 AM
So you're running on self-installed geo-thermal .... I'm taxing my memory here, but is your place country club-adjacent, somewhere in MO/AK? It's been a few years, but somebody here was renovating their grounds, beautiful verandas. Very nice.

New construction, professionally installed. I'm on 65 acres so we went with the horizontal trenches for the loop field over an area about the size of a football field instead of drilling vertical wells. Two 6-ton 27 SEER units for five heating / cooling zones.

Broncojef
03-29-2012, 02:55 AM
The woes of rich people. Getting taxed when getting money they didn't work for ("investment") and giving it to people who didn't work for it ("inherentence"). What does this country have--a sense of justice and equity?

Oh but they did work for it. At some point someone worked
Hard enough to save extra and invest back into the country.
The money after being taxed once then gets reinvested and drives
The economic engine that fosters a strong country and promotes
Hiring people. Capital gains is a second tax on top of the payroll
Tax people make upfront. When you discourage investing and criminalize
Capitalism you end up with high unemployment and a broke economy
As we have now. Bush was a progressive just like Obama get rid
Of that and things will change. I can't understand the nobody deserves
To be wealthy crowd. Get a job and work hard stop whining about what others
May have something you don't.

Bronco_Beerslug
03-29-2012, 04:53 AM
The woes of rich people. Getting taxed when getting money they didn't work for ("investment") and giving it to people who didn't work for it ("inherentence"). What does this country have--a sense of justice and equity?

Uh, there are plenty of people who are NOT rich that enjoy capital gains. And there is nothing wrong with me giving my children money (that I worked my arse off for and was already taxed), tax free.

And I do work for any money I make in the markets.

And one more thing, it's "inheritance". That's part of the "work" I put into my investing strategy, learning how to spell.

Jetmeck
03-29-2012, 07:00 AM
I know it's crazy rich people behavior to want to pass on your accumulated wealth that was already taxed to your children without the government taking a second and third cut. Someday if you have money and children you might feel the same way.

capital gains is a tax on the GAINS.....kinda like interest on your cds or bank account. Guess we should not pay those taxes either.

Be happy your republican bretheren will invest your dough overseas after they start another bs war.

You need better accountants like GE or better yet could you get us all one of those republican protected tax breaks for oil companies ?
they get 4 billion a year cause they need it !!! lol
WE deserve the same deal. hahahahaha

TheReverend
03-29-2012, 07:04 AM
capital gains is a tax on the GAINS.....kinda like interest on your cds or bank account. Guess we should not pay those taxes either.

Be happy your republican bretheren will invest your dough overseas after they start another bs war.

You need better accountants like GE or better yet could you get us all one of those republican protected tax breaks for oil companies ?
they get 4 billion a year cause they need it !!! lol
WE deserve the same deal. hahahahaha

Am I reading this wrong? Because it reads like investments are a political partisan thing. Ha!

SportinOne
03-29-2012, 07:18 AM
It sucks when your living a blue collar life and all the scumbag stereotypes on welfare are the ones really living the American dream

Yeah, im sure their lives are wonderful. Do you really think they are happy?

SportinOne
03-29-2012, 07:27 AM
You can work hard foor the initial money, fine. Then you invest it and you wanna bitch about getting taxed on gains that required you to do nothing... and at a lower rate than a laborer! Lets be clear, this tax money doesnt go just to people. It goes towards building and maintaining our society. It helps you, too. I would like to see the percentage of tax money that goes towards welfare and unemployment. I doubt its a significant one compared to all of the other services that government provides us. Stop worrying about what other people are doing, if you can invest you seem to be doing just fine. Dont cry because you can only get 75 percent of the free money you wanted.

55CrushEm
03-29-2012, 07:31 AM
The woes of rich people. Getting taxed when getting money they didn't work for ("investment") and giving it to people who didn't work for it ("inherentence"). What does this country have--a sense of justice and equity?

So I buy shares of stock.....you say I didn't "work" for that. But I'm still RISKING my money....what risk is the government taking on my investment?

Explain to me again how taxing capital gains more and more, will encourage investment in business.......

55CrushEm
03-29-2012, 07:32 AM
capital gains is a tax on the GAINS.....kinda like interest on your cds or bank account. Guess we should not pay those taxes either.

Damn right we shouldn't. How in the hell can people accumulate wealth, when the few vehicles used to do that get taxed to the core?

Pony Boy
03-29-2012, 08:11 AM
Am I reading this wrong? Because it reads like investments are a political partisan thing. Ha!

It became political when the liberals got their panties in a wad when Romney released his tax documents and it showed he pays a 15% tax rate on capital gains. I feel 15% for gains on money invested that you already paid regular income tax on is fair.

Enticing people to invest with a lower tax rate is a foreign language to most tax and spend liberals.

ColoradoBuff
03-29-2012, 08:14 AM
I am assuming you can not do a 1030 Exchange correct?


It's actually a 1031 Exchange

http://www.1031exchangemadesimple.com/

SportinOne
03-29-2012, 08:20 AM
So I buy shares of stock.....you say I didn't "work" for that. But I'm still RISKING my money....what risk is the government taking on my investment?

Explain to me again how taxing capital gains more and more, will encourage investment in business.......

Thats your choice. You are gambling. The key is that you are obtaining money, which is taxed. Simple enough?

jhns
03-29-2012, 08:26 AM
Thats your choice. You are gambling. The key is that you are obtaining money, which is taxed. Simple enough?

Yup. It is the same if you win big at the casino.

I.don't know where people stand on the 1% issue, but you can't complain about the 1% having all the money and complain that they are being taxed for capital gains. That is how a good percentage of the 1% make their money.

55CrushEm
03-29-2012, 08:43 AM
Thats your choice. You are gambling. The key is that you are obtaining money, which is taxed. Simple enough?

Some people would call it gambling. With the right research, some would call it prudent investing and financial planning. I highly doubt that Warren Buffet veiws what he does as "gambling".

But of course, you're of the opinion that the government should take a big bite of everything, right?

Again, tell me how taxing the crap out of capital gains will ENCOURAGE more business investment......

That One Guy
03-29-2012, 09:28 AM
You can work hard foor the initial money, fine. Then you invest it and you wanna b**** about getting taxed on gains that required you to do nothing... and at a lower rate than a laborer! Lets be clear, this tax money doesnt go just to people. It goes towards building and maintaining our society. It helps you, too. I would like to see the percentage of tax money that goes towards welfare and unemployment. I doubt its a significant one compared to all of the other services that government provides us. Stop worrying about what other people are doing, if you can invest you seem to be doing just fine. Dont cry because you can only get 75 percent of the free money you wanted.

Free money? Where do I get that? If someone's just handing out $100 bills somewhere, I'll gladly let the gov't take $25 for each one I get.

houghtam
03-29-2012, 09:28 AM
Some people would call it gambling. With the right research, some would call it prudent investing and financial planning. I highly doubt that Warren Buffet veiws what he does as "gambling".

So was the MIT blackjack team gambling or investing? What about betting on Syracuse or Indiana to lose early in the tournament after their star player got hurt?

That One Guy
03-29-2012, 09:30 AM
Yup. It is the same if you win big at the casino.

I.don't know where people stand on the 1% issue, but you can't complain about the 1% having all the money and complain that they are being taxed for capital gains. That is how a good percentage of the 1% make their money.

I may be wrong on this but don't the businesses pay the taxes when they take it in? So as an "owner", you're paying taxes for receiving the money and then you pay again when you put it in your pocket? How does that make sense?

Or am I not understanding correctly?

houghtam
03-29-2012, 09:32 AM
I may be wrong on this but don't the businesses pay the taxes when they take it in? So as an "owner", you're paying taxes for receiving the money and then you pay again when you put it in your pocket? How does that make sense?

Or am I not understanding correctly?

You're also paying taxes when you take it out of your pocket and spend it. What's your point?

That One Guy
03-29-2012, 09:33 AM
So was the MIT blackjack team gambling or investing? What about betting on Syracuse or Indiana to lose early in the tournament after their star player got hurt?

Even gamblers like to call their schemes investing. Gambling has a connotation with it of chance and luck where people want to believe their winning is guaranteed.

I agree. It's all the same but if you do your work and choose wisely, the odds eventually shift from the area of pure gambling to the area where success is more likely in "investing".

When I was first starting out, I chose stocks by PEG ratio. I simply sorted and went with the first one. It was more gambling than sitting down to a blackjack table.

That One Guy
03-29-2012, 09:35 AM
You're also paying taxes when you take it out of your pocket and spend it. What's your point?

I think that's also kind of silly but at least it's a different tax for different things. The two income taxes are quite literally both by the same government for the same money.

houghtam
03-29-2012, 09:37 AM
Even gamblers like to call their schemes investing. Gambling has a connotation with it of chance and luck where people want to believe their winning is guaranteed.

I agree. It's all the same but if you do your work and choose wisely, the odds eventually shift from the area of pure gambling to the area where success is more likely in "investing".

When I was first starting out, I chose stocks by PEG ratio. I simply sorted and went with the first one. It was more gambling than sitting down to a blackjack table.

Not sure if you've read about the MIT blackjack team or not, but that was definitely NOT gambling. Their system limited their losses and maximized their winnings. In fact, since blackjack is based on numbers and probability and the stock market is affected by real world decisions, I'd be willing to say the stock market would have been more a gamble for them than the blackjack table.

55CrushEm
03-29-2012, 09:38 AM
So was the MIT blackjack team gambling or investing?

Gambling, while in the process creating better odds for yourself by collusion.

What about betting on Syracuse or Indiana to lose early in the tournament after their star player got hurt?

Gambling.

What's your point?

You can't seriously be comparing betting on a basketball game with investing hard earned money into a company that has great products, good cash flows, good ROAs, low P/E ratios compared to other companies in their industry, good growth trajectories and forecasts, good directors, a CEO with a proven track record, etc.....

Let's say I buy more than 50% of a company's stock....and take effective control of the company.....I then exercise my business expertise, turn the company around, get it growing, employ more people, etc, etc. Would you call THAT "gambling"?

Furthermore, is this the type of activity you want to discourage through higher taxation?

houghtam
03-29-2012, 09:43 AM
You can't seriously be comparing betting on a basketball game with investing hard earned money into a company that has great products, good cash flows, good ROAs, low P/E ratios compared to other companies in their industry, good growth trajectories and forecasts, good directors, a CEO with a proven track record, etc.....

You can't seriously be comparing betting on a company with investing hard earned money in a team that has a great record, good tournament history, good RPI, low turnover ratios compared to other teams in their conference, good potential and youth on the team, a good coach, an AD with a proven track record, etc.....

DenverBrit
03-29-2012, 10:11 AM
Capital gains offsets are very hard to find. Capital losses and tax credits are about all I can think of.
But the cost of trying to save on the fed cap rate, is probably more than it's worth. It's the CA rates that probably will give you most trouble.

As others have recommended, an accountant or FP are your best bets.

That One Guy
03-29-2012, 10:17 AM
Not sure if you've read about the MIT blackjack team or not, but that was definitely NOT gambling. Their system limited their losses and maximized their winnings. In fact, since blackjack is based on numbers and probability and the stock market is affected by real world decisions, I'd be willing to say the stock market would have been more a gamble for them than the blackjack table.

If the perfect scenario happened, there was a possibility they could lose money.

If I bet someone 1million:1 odds that everytime I flipped a coin, it'd land either heads or tails, I'd have pretty good chances of winning money. The possibility exists that by some fluke chance, it'll land on it's side.

It's gambling if there's any possibility at all that you can lose. No matter the likelihood. The grey area between gambling and investing is pretty much just semantics.

Dedhed
03-29-2012, 10:18 AM
Heaven forbid people get taxed on money they make without actually working for it. Oh my, poor people with money to invest. What a craptastic sense of dignity the people of this country have. Make your money, pay your taxes, and quit whining.

You're the whiner here. All of my income is taxed CG, and you're a complete moron if you think I don't haven't worked to get to that point.

What a craptastic sense of inferiority you have.

Dedhed
03-29-2012, 10:24 AM
Then you invest it and you wanna b**** about getting taxed on gains that required you to do nothing...
The ignorance is thick here. Are you really naive enough to think that investing doesn't require work?

Perhaps you don't qualify for capital gains because you don't put any work into building a winning portfolio. Ever think of that?

houghtam
03-29-2012, 10:28 AM
It's gambling if there's any possibility at all that you can lose. No matter the likelihood. The grey area between gambling and investing is pretty much just semantics.

I agree. Investing is a little different in that the company you're investing in is actually using your money. But to say investing is less of a gambling venture than anything else that is legally called "gambling" is a fallacy. Sure, some people educate themselves very well and invest in companies they feel will be able to profit them. Just as some people educate themselves on how teams perform against the spread, at home vs. away, vs. 3-4 or 4-3 defenses, etc. and part with some of their hard-earned cash based on how they feel a team will do.

However, the vast majority in both camps have no clue what they're doing. The only difference is where the money goes after you lose it.

Dedhed
03-29-2012, 10:28 AM
It's gambling if there's any possibility at all that you can lose. No matter the likelihood. The grey area between gambling and investing is pretty much just semantics.True. Casinos make gobs of money gambling. They're almost guaranteed to make money over the long run based on the odds.

They're still gambling, however. The secret to investing/trading is to work to gain the knowledge so you can turn the odds in your favor.

55CrushEm
03-29-2012, 10:33 AM
You can't seriously be comparing betting on a company with investing hard earned money in a team that has a great record, good tournament history, good RPI, low turnover ratios compared to other teams in their conference, good potential and youth on the team, a good coach, an AD with a proven track record, etc.....

So you're saying there's little difference between gambling and investing.

Let's just agree to disagree, then.

I find a HUGE difference between investing $100K in Microsoft or more appropriately INVESTING $100K in a new business venture......and betting $100K on a single had of blackjack.

houghtam
03-29-2012, 10:45 AM
So you're saying there's little difference between gambling and investing.

Let's just agree to disagree, then.

I find a HUGE difference between investing $100K in Microsoft or more appropriately INVESTING $100K in a new business venture......and betting $100K on a single had of blackjack.

You're right, there is a HUGE difference between those, when compared at face value, considering you're probably doing research on that company.

Give me $100k to bet on a single hand of blackjack after I haven't seen a face card in 10 hands, and it's closer to your definition of an investment than your definition of gambling.

DenverBrit
03-29-2012, 10:48 AM
If the perfect scenario happened, there was a possibility they could lose money.

If I bet someone 1million:1 odds that everytime I flipped a coin, it'd land either heads or tails, I'd have pretty good chances of winning money. The possibility exists that by some fluke chance, it'll land on it's side.

It's gambling if there's any possibility at all that you can lose. No matter the likelihood. The grey area between gambling and investing is pretty much just semantics.

You've never invested or taken a risk?

Investing in the market is nothing like gambling....I do both.....if people could succeed at gambling as they do investing, they'd all own casinos by now and Vegas would be long gone. ;D

Dedhed
03-29-2012, 10:49 AM
You're right, there is a HUGE difference between those, when compared at face value, considering you're probably doing research on that company.

Give me $100k to bet on a single hand of blackjack after I haven't seen a face card in 10 hands, and it's closer to your definition of an investment than your definition of gambling.

Comparing an investment to a single hand of black jack is apples to oranges. An investment can go against you for awhile, and a single hand of black jack is over when it's over.

But comparing the career of a seasoned blackjack player to a long term investment is fair.

houghtam
03-29-2012, 10:51 AM
Comparing an investment to a single hand of black jack is apples to oranges. An investment can go against you for awhile, and a single hand of black jack is over when it's over.

But comparing the career of a seasoned blackjack player to a long term investment is fair.

Agree.

I have no problem with "gambling" or "investing", I just think it's a curious distinction between the two. They're both basically the same thing.

Dedhed
03-29-2012, 10:53 AM
You've never invested or taken a risk?

Investing in the market is nothing like gambling....I do both.....if people could succeed at gambling as they do investing, they'd all own casinos by now and Vegas would be long gone. ;D
You're taking a blanket approach here. There are individuals who succeed in gambling at casinos, but their gains are more than offset by all the hobbyists who lose their shirts.

Also, gambling at a casino is a zero sum game. If you win, the house loses, and vice-versa. Investing in a stock is not a zero sum endeavor. If the company does well, so do the share holders.

Dedhed
03-29-2012, 10:54 AM
Agree.

I have no problem with "gambling" or "investing", I just think it's a curious distinction between the two. They're both basically the same thing.

Saying they're basically the same thing is dishonest. Saying they have similarities is appropriate.

See my zero sum post for the main difference.

houghtam
03-29-2012, 10:57 AM
Saying they're basically the same thing is dishonest. Saying they have similarities is appropriate.

See my zero sum post for the main difference.

They have enough similarities that if you invest or gamble without knowing what you're doing, you will lose your ass.

That's similar enough to me.

55CrushEm
03-29-2012, 10:59 AM
Saying they're basically the same thing is dishonest. Saying they have similarities is appropriate.

This.



Buying stocks based on "hot tips", trading frequently by following the gyrations of the market, and holding on to certain stocks based on pure sentiment is not investing. It's speculation.


Topic of Risk
There are card games, like poker, that demand skill. However, you cannot choose the cards dealt out to you. In investing, you can choose your investment.

This is the pivotal difference between investing vs gambling

So how does risk play into this? Buying stock and betting on the roulette wheel both involve uncertain outcomes and therefore carry risk.

The probability of a win is a lot higher when you do your homework and buy stock. Why? With a roulette wheel, every number on the board has an equal probability of winning. So the outcome is completely random.

With stocks, when you buy companies with good fundamentals at attractive prices, the probability that they will grow and produce good returns on your investment is not random. True, there is always uncertainty in the future, but the chance of losing money in the long-term is relatively low.

Dedhed
03-29-2012, 11:00 AM
They have enough similarities that if you invest or gamble without knowing what you're doing, you will lose your ass.

That's similar enough to me.

I think that's overly simplify it, but whatever.

DenverBrit
03-29-2012, 11:05 AM
You're taking a blanket approach here. There are individuals who succeed in gambling at casinos, but their gains are more than offset by all the hobbyists who lose their shirts.

Also, gambling at a casino is a zero sum game. If you win, the house loses, and vice-versa. Investing in a stock is not a zero sum endeavor. If the company does well, so do the share holders.

I think you're mixing 'investing' with 'speculating.' If one 'speculates' then it is closer to gambling.

There is one thing for sure, the market will keep going up for millions of 'investors'. Very few gamblers will have that experience.

Dedhed
03-29-2012, 11:09 AM
There is one thing for sure, the market will keep going up for millions of 'investors'. Very few gamblers will have that experience.

That's the working definition of zero sum.

DenverBrit
03-29-2012, 11:14 AM
That's the working definition of zero sum.

As would options and futures.

I'm not sure if we are debating the same point. I don't believe 'investing' is the same as Casino 'gambling.'

ColoradoDarin
03-29-2012, 11:43 AM
The woes of rich people. Getting taxed when getting money they didn't work for ("investment") and giving it to people who didn't work for it ("inherentence"). What does this country have--a sense of justice and equity?

Great logic! So instead we give the money to the government, who both earned it and then risked it?


And then some bureaucrat in DC can dole it out to his crony buddies like Solyndra or Siga Technologies in order for them to suck at the tax-payer teat.

Dedhed
03-29-2012, 12:41 PM
I don't believe 'investing' is the same as Casino 'gambling.'
Nor do I.

zdoor
03-29-2012, 12:50 PM
Heaven forbid people get taxed on money they make without actually working for it. Oh my, poor people with money to invest. What a craptastic sense of dignity the people of this country have. Make your money, pay your taxes, and quit whining.

This is almost to stupid to respond too...

You have no idea what I'm selling and how much I "worked" for it... Really easy to say stupid shiat like this when its not your money...

zdoor
03-29-2012, 12:53 PM
Capital gains offsets are very hard to find. Capital losses and tax credits are about all I can think of.
But the cost of trying to save on the fed cap rate, is probably more than it's worth. It's the CA rates that probably will give you most trouble.

As others have recommended, an accountant or FP are your best bets.

Yeah, the 15% sucks but its the additional 10.33% that is really killing me....

Meck77
03-29-2012, 01:10 PM
Saw a bumper sticker once that went like this.


Keep working hard. Millions on welfare depend on you!


It's owe so easy to say "Tax the small businessman" but I'd much rather see a guy like Zdoor keep an extra 5 or 10% to expand his business and create more jobs instead of the federal government squandering his tax dollars on wars or pay raises for themselves but that's the way it goes.

Sent you a message Zdoor via rep.

zdoor
03-29-2012, 01:57 PM
Saw a bumper sticker once that went like this.


Keep working hard. Millions on welfare depend on you!


It's owe so easy to say "Tax the small businessman" but I'd much rather see a guy like Zdoor keep an extra 5 or 10% to expand his business and create more jobs instead of the federal government squandering his tax dollars on wars or pay raises for themselves but that's the way it goes.

Sent you a message Zdoor via rep.

Thanks for the rep and advice Meck. I've been thinking along the same lines. Seems like one of the few things that's safe anymore...

SportinOne
03-29-2012, 02:03 PM
Some people would call it gambling. With the right research, some would call it prudent investing and financial planning. I highly doubt that Warren Buffet veiws what he does as "gambling".

But of course, you're of the opinion that the government should take a big bite of everything, right?

Again, tell me how taxing the crap out of capital gains will ENCOURAGE more business investment......

If there is a portion of the process that is completely out of the person's control, i would call that gambling. If i get a job at a company, something outlandishly catastrophic would have to happen for the work I do not to be compensated.

I am of the opinion that all income, however obtained, should be taxed. I am also of the opinion that if you can tax the income of a manual laborer that busts his ass each and every day, that you should tax income from capital gains at at least the same percentage, optimally a bit higher on principle alone. I don't mean that Capital Gains should be taxed at 75% or even 50%. Nowhere did I say that.

SportinOne
03-29-2012, 02:20 PM
The ignorance is thick here. Are you really naive enough to think that investing doesn't require work?

Perhaps you don't qualify for capital gains because you don't put any work into building a winning portfolio. Ever think of that?

Excuse me, it must be hard to dig through the numbers, find the best bet, hand over your money, and sweat it out while you wait for the big payoff. I mean, yeah, that sounds stressful. But that's not work, my friend.

I'm really not concerned with having a "winning portfolio." I'll leave that for all you winners. There are a lot of people that go through a lot of trouble and spend a lot of money in an attempt to obtain what they could already have by simply practicing patience and self-love.

But i digress. If you think you need the extra 15 to 25% of your "i did my homework" money, i believe you.

Beantown Bronco
03-29-2012, 02:28 PM
Excuse me, it must be hard to dig through the numbers, find the best bet, hand over your money, and sweat it out while you wait for the big payoff. I mean, yeah, that sounds stressful. But that's not work, my friend.


How far do you want to take that though? Think about it. One could make that EXACT argument about most 9-5 "non-manual labor" office jobs.

jhns
03-29-2012, 02:42 PM
How far do you want to take that though? Think about it. One could make that EXACT argument about most 9-5 "non-manual labor" office jobs.

I get taxed at like 27% of my salary in my office job.

TheReverend
03-29-2012, 02:49 PM
Dear Hippies,

Stop b****ing about people that are savvy enough to take earned money and turn it into more earned money. They're providing your lifestyle.

PS. If you spent half your b****ing-time learning and working, you'd be agreeing with the rest of us.

Sincerely,
Part of the wallet paying for your ****ty healthcare, student loan forgiveness, welfare, SSI, etc

DenverBrit
03-29-2012, 03:40 PM
Yeah, the 15% sucks but its the additional 10.33% that is really killing me....

Good luck with CA, they hate to miss a buck.

enjolras
03-29-2012, 03:46 PM
So I buy shares of stock.....you say I didn't "work" for that. But I'm still RISKING my money....what risk is the government taking on my investment?

They are taxing you on the gain, not the risk. You'd have a fair point if they were taxing your investment no matter how it turned out (invest $30k, get back $15k and still pay 30%). That's not how the system works, however. They are only hitting you on money that you've made beyond your initial investment.

We can talk about opportunity cost and diminishing capital gains (which is a system I support really), but lets be real about what's going on here at least.

Explain to me again how taxing capital gains more and more, will encourage investment in business.......

Explain to me the opposite. How does taking 15% of the gain discourage investment in business? There are lots of barriers to investing, but I think capital gains rarely enters into the equations. The gains are simply to good, and the tax implications of losses too favorable for people not to do it. Even at much higher taxes on the gains.

For instance, explain to me why the largest (by a mile) is California, which also has the highest (by a mile) capital gains rate by state. That the tax rate is so much higher doesn't seem to be precluding investment in the slightest.

Here are some numbers from 2007.

http://www.cbinsights.com/blog/venture-capital/venture-capital-state-statistics-2011
http://www.thereibrain.com/realestate-blog/2007/10/capital-gains-tax-rates-state-by-state/

houghtam
03-29-2012, 03:53 PM
Dear Hippies,

Stop b****ing about people that are savvy enough to take earned money and turn it into more earned money. They're providing your lifestyle.

PS. If you spent half your b****ing-time learning and working, you'd be agreeing with the rest of us.

Sincerely,
Part of the wallet paying for your ****ty healthcare, student loan forgiveness, welfare, SSI, etc

Dear Dumbasses,

Some of us are decently well off and still think you should pay your goddamn taxes and stop whining.

Sincerely,

Shut your smarmy toilet.

PS: No really, do.

Jetmeck
03-29-2012, 07:05 PM
Great logic! So instead we give the money to the government, who both earned it and then risked it?


And then some bureaucrat in DC can dole it out to his crony buddies like Solyndra or Siga Technologies in order for them to suck at the tax-payer teat.


This is the kind of ass backwards bs that needs to stop. sure solyndra tanked, a lot of businesses do. Solar energy is a big part of our future and needs to be invested in. Whats the problem with that ? Again a lot of businesses fail.....maybe you should bitch at China for flooding the market with cheap solar panels instead of blaming the guy trying to invest in our future. numb nutz.............

Republicans have pissed away billions and billions on wars and rich and corporate tax breaks but somebody investing in the future is the bad guy ?

Your kinda ****ed up.................

SportinOne
03-29-2012, 08:17 PM
Dear Hippies,

Stop b****ing about people that are savvy enough to take earned money and turn it into more earned money. They're providing your lifestyle.

PS. If you spent half your b****ing-time learning and working, you'd be agreeing with the rest of us.

Sincerely,
Part of the wallet paying for your ****ty healthcare, student loan forgiveness, welfare, SSI, etc

Dear dude,

if you can make your money without really working for it, that's cool with me. But i would expect you to pitch in at the same rate that i'm pitching in. That's all. And yes, I do work. I've yet to meet anyone who has had "student loan forgiveness." Certainly not I.

But hey, if it exists, i'm also part of the wallet and i'm completely okay with paying a few cents or dollars a month to help solve what is major problem.

cutthemdown
03-29-2012, 08:21 PM
Pay your taxes you freeloader!

Signed Obama!

ColoradoDarin
03-30-2012, 07:12 AM
This is the kind of ass backwards bs that needs to stop. sure solyndra tanked, a lot of businesses do. Solar energy is a big part of our future and needs to be invested in. Whats the problem with that ? Again a lot of businesses fail.....maybe you should b**** at China for flooding the market with cheap solar panels instead of blaming the guy trying to invest in our future. numb nutz.............

Republicans have pissed away billions and billions on wars and rich and corporate tax breaks but somebody investing in the future is the bad guy ?

Your kinda ****ed up.................

Again more liberal "logic" means pissing away more money because someone else is pissing away money. Great, that's how we got $15T in debt already. ****ing dumbass.

Dedhed
03-30-2012, 08:34 AM
Excuse me, it must be hard to dig through the numbers, find the best bet, hand over your money, and sweat it out while you wait for the big payoff. I mean, yeah, that sounds stressful. But that's not work, my friend.

I'm really not concerned with having a "winning portfolio." I'll leave that for all you winners. There are a lot of people that go through a lot of trouble and spend a lot of money in an attempt to obtain what they could already have by simply practicing patience and self-love.

But i digress. If you think you need the extra 15 to 25% of your "i did my homework" money, i believe you.Like I said, you're the whiner here. Point out where I've complained about paying CG. I love that I make enough money to pay what I do in taxes.

What's absurd is that you actually believe that you're somehow deprived by me making money, and are clearly angry about it. You have two choices, become concerned about creating a "winning portfolio" or don't complain about those who are and are successful because of it.

You're brutally naive in assuming that anyone paying capital gains hands their money to someone and sits around watching the returns flow into their bank account. You look foolish imagining that's reality.

It's pitiful to act like you don't have something because others do and it makes otherwise intelligent people look like whiny tools.

Dr. Broncenstein
03-30-2012, 08:39 AM
Remeber citizen, your success only occurs because another goes without. You will be accordingly punished for any achievement.

Dedhed
03-30-2012, 08:42 AM
Dear Hippies,

Stop b****ing about people that are savvy enough to take earned money and turn it into more earned money. They're providing your lifestyle.

PS. If you spent half your b****ing-time learning and working, you'd be agreeing with the rest of us.

Sincerely,
Part of the wallet paying for your ****ty healthcare, student loan forgiveness, welfare, SSI, etc

Take it easy on the hippie talk. I've always been a hippie and always will be. I just never bought into the ideology that because others make millions, I'm somehow deprived.

That's not a hippie credo, it's a victim's credo.

I chose to learn how beat the 1%ers at their own games. It's much sweeter than complaining about them not paying enough taxes while working a crap job 60+ hours a week, and still stressing about my bills.

Pony Boy
03-30-2012, 08:56 AM
I was talking to a guy and he was pissing and moaning about his high health insurance premiums and why a healthy guy like himself should be paying for others that were sick or without insurance coverage.

Five minutes later he was spouting off about how the wealthy in this country and why they should pay more taxes to pay for the programs the lower income families need.


Do the right thing but say out of my pocket ........

Taco John
03-30-2012, 10:33 AM
If I had it my way, all federal taxes would be 0%, with all revenues generated by user fees and consumption taxes - with all social programs managed by the states.

Pony Boy
03-30-2012, 10:38 AM
If I had it my way, all federal taxes would be 0%, with all revenues generated by user fees and consumption taxes - with all social programs managed by the states.

"Taco John for President in 2012" ........... I could see a brokered convention

houghtam
03-30-2012, 10:42 AM
If I had it my way, all federal taxes would be 0%, with all revenues generated by user fees and consumption taxes - with all social programs managed by the states.

So the entire south would be worse off than it is now?

Taco John
03-30-2012, 10:43 AM
So the entire south would be worse off than it is now?


Beats me, and honestly, I don't care how the south manages the south.

houghtam
03-30-2012, 10:50 AM
Beats me, and honestly, I don't care how the south manages the south.

Neither do I, as long as no longer being a part of the United States is part of it.

Taco John
03-30-2012, 11:02 AM
Neither do I, as long as no longer being a part of the United States is part of it.

I wouldn't go that far, but I'd be happy to let states manage their own social programs, be it heathcare, or welfare.

Dedhed
03-30-2012, 11:24 AM
I don't care how the south manages the south.
I heard they're gonna rise again.

Pony Boy
03-30-2012, 11:37 AM
So the entire south would be worse off than it is now?

That was the general idea when this country was formed there was to be individual states with "states rights" being the protected under one flag. The money eating Federal government and "states rights" are like oil and water.

SportinOne
03-30-2012, 02:00 PM
Like I said, you're the whiner here. Point out where I've complained about paying CG. I love that I make enough money to pay what I do in taxes.

What's absurd is that you actually believe that you're somehow deprived by me making money, and are clearly angry about it. You have two choices, become concerned about creating a "winning portfolio" or don't complain about those who are and are successful because of it.

You're brutally naive in assuming that anyone paying capital gains hands their money to someone and sits around watching the returns flow into their bank account. You look foolish imagining that's reality.

It's pitiful to act like you don't have something because others do and it makes otherwise intelligent people look like whiny tools.

I never said i was deprived by you making money. I said that tax percentages should be fair.

I will concede that not EVERYONE who pays capital gains sits around waiting for a payout. Example: someone buys a house, puts a lot of work into remodeling it, then sells it. if he doesn't wait long enough, he'll pay the capital gains tax, am i right? okay fine, and when he does, that rate should be at least as high as normal income tax rates.. see above statement.. that's the meat of my argument. do you disagree with that? i think you've already stated that you don't.. so this is much ado for nothing.

Jetmeck
03-30-2012, 05:58 PM
Again more liberal "logic" means pissing away more money because someone else is pissing away money. Great, that's how we got $15T in debt already. ****ing dumbass.

FREAKIN PATHETIC. Not a liberal or a conservatic. Just know the difference between a bunch of idiot republicans trying to take care of the rich and corporations while ****ing the little guy. See the balanced budget proposal from the house of retarded republicans giving tax breaks to the rich and corporations like 4 billion to oil companies they will protect to the death while telling old people your medicare is basically gone and no more helping people go to college with loans.

They do it right in your face. Yet tards like you vote for them.
Sure we need to cut costs but tell me my parents need their medicare taken away so your rich buddies keeps tax breaks that need to snap back to 1990 era levels when the economy was good.
Oil companies need 4 billion a year in tax breaks ? Try to defend that position if you got anything swingin ?

Sure we need to cut spending but spending on what is the issue ?
Republicans ****ed it all up with stupid wars and their give aways to the rich via tax code and corporate tax rates then want to tell the old people...we are so sorry we have to take your medicare.....just don't loook over here as I give my rich buddies a tax break at the same time.

Rich better get voting republican cause all these scumbags like Wisconsin governor walker (walker being recalled for anti labor bs) and the tea party tards are gone come november.

The majority of the people is the working middle class and they see what these tard republicans are doing. they don't work for the majority...they work for the rich only...............

RaiderH8r
03-30-2012, 08:05 PM
Lol... That defintely fall in line with my heritage...


I'm going to use all my loss carry overs and try to account for every expense I've had over the years on the investment, but I'm still looking at a royal screwing by the government. Any other ideas?

Relax your sphincter.

houghtam
03-30-2012, 08:14 PM
Relax your sphincter.

Oh I get it. Because taxes are like anal rape.

You're clever.

ColoradoDarin
03-30-2012, 09:20 PM
FREAKIN PATHETIC. Not a liberal or a conservatic. Just know the difference between a bunch of idiot republicans trying to take care of the rich and corporations while ****ing the little guy. See the balanced budget proposal from the house of retarded republicans giving tax breaks to the rich and corporations like 4 billion to oil companies they will protect to the death while telling old people your medicare is basically gone and no more helping people go to college with loans.

They do it right in your face. Yet tards like you vote for them.
Sure we need to cut costs but tell me my parents need their medicare taken away so your rich buddies keeps tax breaks that need to snap back to 1990 era levels when the economy was good.
Oil companies need 4 billion a year in tax breaks ? Try to defend that position if you got anything swingin ?

Sure we need to cut spending but spending on what is the issue ?
Republicans ****ed it all up with stupid wars and their give aways to the rich via tax code and corporate tax rates then want to tell the old people...we are so sorry we have to take your medicare.....just don't loook over here as I give my rich buddies a tax break at the same time.

Rich better get voting republican cause all these scumbags like Wisconsin governor walker (walker being recalled for anti labor bs) and the tea party tards are gone come november.

The majority of the people is the working middle class and they see what these tard republicans are doing. they don't work for the majority...they work for the rich only...............

I know you have no ****ing clue what you are talking about when you repeat the bolded above. It's a nice talking point for easily led sheep like yourself (however stupid a point, but stupid repeated over and over makes people think it's something) but it's bogus. It's not oil company specific credits - it's a standard that most industries can take as a credit, what they are trying to do is treat oil companies differently (the other part is the foreign taxes paid credit, also available to more than just oil companies).

And I'll just note here that you didn't refute my original point, so I guess you have fully conceded that stupid spending doesn't justify other stupid spending.

PS - A further note - Obamacare cut Medicare by $500 billion. You should throw some hate to Obama and every Congresscritter who voted for that POS (and hope the SC overturns it).

Dedhed
03-30-2012, 10:27 PM
I never said i was deprived by you making money. I said that tax percentages should be fair.I would love for tax percentages to be fair. I'm not sure if you're aware that the rate I pay in capital gains is very likely higher than what you're paying on your income tax, so I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here.

I will concede that not EVERYONE who pays capital gains sits around waiting for a payout. Example: someone buys a house, puts a lot of work into remodeling it, then sells it. if he doesn't wait long enough, he'll pay the capital gains tax, am i right? okay fine, and when he does, that rate should be at least as high as normal income tax rates.. see above statement.. that's the meat of my argument. do you disagree with that? i think you've already stated that you don't.. so this is much ado for nothing.It's clear that you only consider manual labor to be actual work. Fine by me, as judge Smails said "The world needs ditch diggers too."

I've worked very hard to learn how not to work hard, and I could not care less whether that doesn't fit your definition of work.

Jetmeck
03-30-2012, 10:57 PM
I know you have no ****ing clue what you are talking about when you repeat the bolded above. It's a nice talking point for easily led sheep like yourself (however stupid a point, but stupid repeated over and over makes people think it's something) but it's bogus. It's not oil company specific credits - it's a standard that most industries can take as a credit, what they are trying to do is treat oil companies differently (the other part is the foreign taxes paid credit, also available to more than just oil companies).

And I'll just note here that you didn't refute my original point, so I guess you have fully conceded that stupid spending doesn't justify other stupid spending.

PS - A further note - Obamacare cut Medicare by $500 billion. You should throw some hate to Obama and every Congresscritter who voted for that POS (and hope the SC overturns it).

First IT is four billion in tax breaks to oil companies........it isn't make believe .... given to them by guess who.... BUSH (member VP Cheney THE EX-OIL MAN.......YEA)
to develop more oil fields. Had specific discussions with my Rep. about these taxes which he stupidly supports. Your dead wrong..........member VP Cheney THE EX-OIL MAN.......YEA

Secondly stupid spending......really. I pointed out to you OBAMA was trying to develop solar energy which you dumbass repubs want to keep bringing up solyndra. Chinese flooded the market with 30 billion worth of govt funding in there solar industry effectively crushing ours. But that is stupid spending FOR TRYING investing in our future ?

least this man is trying to invest in our future.......what would you call the billions in wars spending ? stupid
or stupidly trying to dole out more taX breaks to the people who need it the least when your SUPPOSEDLY WORRIED ABOUT THE DEFICIT ?

Anyone voting republican that is working class America is clueless and I concede nothing to you but I am allergic to stupidity.

Good luck bucko your getting four more years cause the majority
has had enough.............cry like a baby to pay a tax rate that worked so well in the Clinton YEARS...poor..........babies.
IT'S coming just as soon as the door hits the tea party on their ass on their way out of congress.........

ITS WHAT YOUR SPENDING ON THAT IS KEY......
wars...no
tax breaks for the rich...no

healthcare for everybody...yes
invest in renewable energy....yes

Heh numb nutz Obama care stream lined and cut costs in Medicare.......tell me you are against that just cause its an Obama idea ?

But Obama care DID NOT KICK ANYONE OFF MEDICARE like the recent house budget bill would ..........there is a big difference.

clueless

RaiderH8r
03-30-2012, 11:15 PM
Oh I get it. Because taxes are like anal rape.

You're clever.

I'd club that turtle with a baby seal.

ColoradoDarin
03-31-2012, 07:10 AM
First IT is four billion in tax breaks to oil companies........it isn't make believe .... given to them by guess who.... BUSH (member VP Cheney THE EX-OIL MAN.......YEA)
to develop more oil fields. Had specific discussions with my Rep. about these taxes which he stupidly supports. Your dead wrong..........member VP Cheney THE EX-OIL MAN.......YEA

Secondly stupid spending......really. I pointed out to you OBAMA was trying to develop solar energy which you dumbass repubs want to keep bringing up solyndra. Chinese flooded the market with 30 billion worth of govt funding in there solar industry effectively crushing ours. But that is stupid spending FOR TRYING investing in our future ?

least this man is trying to invest in our future.......what would you call the billions in wars spending ? stupid
or stupidly trying to dole out more taX breaks to the people who need it the least when your SUPPOSEDLY WORRIED ABOUT THE DEFICIT ?

Anyone voting republican that is working class America is clueless and I concede nothing to you but I am allergic to stupidity.

Good luck bucko your getting four more years cause the majority
has had enough.............cry like a baby to pay a tax rate that worked so well in the Clinton YEARS...poor..........babies.
IT'S coming just as soon as the door hits the tea party on their ass on their way out of congress.........

ITS WHAT YOUR SPENDING ON THAT IS KEY......
wars...no
tax breaks for the rich...no

healthcare for everybody...yes
invest in renewable energy....yes

Heh numb nutz Obama care stream lined and cut costs in Medicare.......tell me you are against that just cause its an Obama idea ?

But Obama care DID NOT KICK ANYONE OFF MEDICARE like the recent house budget bill would ..........there is a big difference.

clueless

Bwhahahahahhaha. Nice try. Not a single damn thing you've said refutes the facts I've presented.

Why do you hate poor people? Your president has pursued policies that raise the cost of energy (and promised he'd do that while he was running, so no surprise) and higher energy prices hurt the poor the most (but make white affluent liberals feel good about themselves, with the main pollution of smugness).


PS. I'm anti-war, so you can drop that bull**** line too. :)

Jetmeck
03-31-2012, 07:41 AM
Bwhahahahahhaha. Nice try. Not a single damn thing you've said refutes the facts I've presented.

Why do you hate poor people? Your president has pursued policies that raise the cost of energy (and promised he'd do that while he was running, so no surprise) and higher energy prices hurt the poor the most (but make white affluent liberals feel good about themselves, with the main pollution of smugness).


PS. I'm anti-war, so you can drop that bull**** line too. :)



Have refuted every single point you have made you are just too stupid to understand the difference between pissing away money on foolish **** like tax cuts for the rich and corporate give aways and trying to help all the people with healthcare and green energy and etc........................

See we all need a president and senate and house that will do the will of the people (the majority ) not just whats best for the rich and corporations.

You are thick headed ? huh............

Beat you like a bad habit...............you got nothing at all.

NOT ONCE DID YOUR DEFLECTING ASS DEFEND THE REPUBLICAN POSITION OF TAKING AWAY MEDICARE ON ONE HAND AND GIVING AWAY TAX BREAKS TO RICH ****S THAT DON';T NEED IT.

UNTIL YOU EXPLAIN THIS IDIOCRISY ......KISS MY ASS !

Goodnight...poor brainwashed fool !

ColoradoDarin
03-31-2012, 08:44 AM
Have refuted every single point you have made you are just too stupid to understand the difference between pissing away money on foolish **** like tax cuts for the rich and corporate give aways and trying to help all the people with healthcare and green energy and etc........................

See we all need a president and senate and house that will do the will of the people (the majority ) not just whats best for the rich and corporations.

You are thick headed ? huh............

Beat you like a bad habit...............you got nothing at all.

NOT ONCE DID YOUR DEFLECTING ASS DEFEND THE REPUBLICAN POSITION OF TAKING AWAY MEDICARE ON ONE HAND AND GIVING AWAY TAX BREAKS TO RICH ****S THAT DON';T NEED IT.

UNTIL YOU EXPLAIN THIS IDIOCRISY ......KISS MY ASS !

Goodnight...poor brainwashed fool !


Says the guy who BELIEVES what a congresscritter told him, "why no politician would lie to *meeeeeeeeeeeee*"


Ahahhahahahahahahahaha.

RhymesayersDU
03-31-2012, 09:01 AM
I'm convinced this guy is Spider's idiot twin.

Tombstone RJ
03-31-2012, 09:27 AM
I'm pretty likely to me a transaction in the next few weeks that will yield significant capital gains. I live in California, and the transaction will occur in the same state, subjecting me to 10.5% state capital gains plus almost 15% federal capital gains tax. Read through a bunch of online material and found a few things but wondering if anyone here has had any success minimalizing capital gains taxes and what strategy they used? Any help is appreciatted...

wow, that sucks. 26% hit. This is exactly the reason why I have a hard time accepting the fed gov wanting to raise capital gains taxes.

Tombstone RJ
03-31-2012, 09:37 AM
You can work hard foor the initial money, fine. Then you invest it and you wanna b**** about getting taxed on gains that required you to do nothing... and at a lower rate than a laborer! Lets be clear, this tax money doesnt go just to people. It goes towards building and maintaining our society. It helps you, too. I would like to see the percentage of tax money that goes towards welfare and unemployment. I doubt its a significant one compared to all of the other services that government provides us. Stop worrying about what other people are doing, if you can invest you seem to be doing just fine. Dont cry because you can only get 75 percent of the free money you wanted.

blah, blah, blah. Again, capital gains is a tax on money that has already been taxed. Lot's of non rich people get some capital gains when they do things like sell land (my family for instance that has farmland).

So, we pay taxes on the land, we pay taxes to maintain the land (tractors, repairs, etc., etc.,) then when we go to sell the land we pay taxes and because the land has been in our family for a long, long, long, long time and has increased in value, boom! Capital Gains too!

We are not wealthy, this type of tax sucks.

houghtam
03-31-2012, 09:40 AM
blah, blah, blah. Again, capital gains is a tax on money that has already been taxed. Lot's of non rich people get some capital gains when they do things like sell land (my family for instance that has farmland).

So, we pay taxes on the land, we pay taxes to maintain the land (tractors, repairs, etc., etc.,) then when we go to sell the land we pay taxes and because the land has been in our family for a long, long, long, long time and has increased in value, boom! Capital Gains too!

We are not wealthy, this type of tax sucks.

How do you think the Native Americans felt?

Count your blessings.

Taco John
03-31-2012, 09:41 AM
Have refuted every single point you have made you are just too stupid to understand the difference between pissing away money on foolish **** like tax cuts for the rich and corporate give aways and trying to help all the people with healthcare and green energy and etc........................



It's the same thing actually. When government invests in such technology as "green energy," all they're doing is subsidizing millionaire and billionaires.


<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/9xpVXLfXZH4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


And the only thing government has ever been able to do for healthcare is make it more expensive.

Tombstone RJ
03-31-2012, 09:42 AM
How do you think the Native Americans felt?

Count your blessings.

we have native blood too...

Taco John
03-31-2012, 09:43 AM
How do you think the Native Americans felt?

Count your blessings.

LOL!

Yeah, the government didn't shoot you for your land. Count your blessings! Ha!

(totally serious, though - they steal land like they steal your wallet. Ask Meck about getting his land stolen from him)

houghtam
03-31-2012, 09:55 AM
LOL!

Yeah, the government didn't shoot you for your land. Count your blessings! Ha!

(totally serious, though - they steal land like they steal your wallet. Ask Meck about getting his land stolen from him)

Oh yeah I know all about that.

Just throwing in some perspective here. ;D

Seriously though your capital gains taxes aren't going anywhere, guys. Suck it up and pay it like a man (or woman, as the case may be). Quit whining. You sound just as bad as you think the occupy protesters sound.

Meck77
03-31-2012, 10:02 AM
LOL!

Yeah, the government didn't shoot you for your land. Count your blessings! Ha!

(totally serious, though - they steal land like they steal your wallet. Ask Meck about getting his land stolen from him)

Although it was my personal battle Taco there is a WAR going on for property rights in America. Eminent domain is one of those things that most people don't identify with until it happens to them. The government surgically targets what they want and takes what they can with the least amount of resistance.

In my case I was able to afford a strong team of lawyers so in the end they didn't "steal it" but I certainly wasn't made whole. Not to mention the process took 1.5 years. Thousands of hours of my time just trying to keep what I had.

The majority of people simply roll over because they don't have the time or the money to defend themselves and the government knows this.

Bottom line is the government takes people's property for less than the tax accessed value in most cases. Does that sound right to you? Furthermore they don't always take it for "public good" like people are led to believe. They take it for profit and redevelopment for themselves.

RaiderH8r
03-31-2012, 10:37 AM
Although it was my personal battle Taco there is a WAR going on for property rights in America. Eminent domain is one of those things that most people don't identify with until it happens to them. The government surgically targets what they want and takes what they can with the least amount of resistance.

In my case I was able to afford a strong team of lawyers so in the end they didn't "steal it" but I certainly wasn't made whole. Not to mention the process took 1.5 years. Thousands of hours of my time just trying to keep what I had.

The majority of people simply roll over because they don't have the time or the money to defend themselves and the government knows this.

Bottom line is the government takes people's property for less than the tax accessed value in most cases. Does that sound right to you? Furthermore they don't always take it for "public good" like people are led to believe. They take it for profit and redevelopment for themselves.

US gov has the largest, best funded law firm in history at their disposal.

Tombstone RJ
03-31-2012, 10:39 AM
Although it was my personal battle Taco there is a WAR going on for property rights in America. Eminent domain is one of those things that most people don't identify with until it happens to them. The government surgically targets what they want and takes what they can with the least amount of resistance.

In my case I was able to afford a strong team of lawyers so in the end they didn't "steal it" but I certainly wasn't made whole. Not to mention the process took 1.5 years. Thousands of hours of my time just trying to keep what I had.

The majority of people simply roll over because they don't have the time or the money to defend themselves and the government knows this.

Bottom line is the government takes people's property for less than the tax accessed value in most cases. Does that sound right to you? Furthermore they don't always take it for "public good" like people are led to believe. They take it for profit and redevelopment for themselves.

we have the same worries with this type of stuff, nothing has happened, yet. However I've been into the city's administration building and have seen a map on their wall where the city plans on putting a road right through the middle of our property. Its interesting to see because they have not discussed this with our family. Now, this is just a little city we are talking about but they have screwed with other property owners in the past.

Tombstone RJ
03-31-2012, 10:41 AM
US gov has the largest, best funded law firm in history at their disposal.

the us gov is a bunch of lawyers. look at the makeup of congress. This is why citizens are getting screwed because the big lawyers work for the big interests and make big $$ for themselves.

Meck77
03-31-2012, 10:58 AM
we have the same worries with this type of stuff, nothing has happened, yet. However I've been into the city's administration building and have seen a map on their wall where the city plans on putting a road right through the middle of our property. Its interesting to see because they have not discussed this with our family. Now, this is just a little city we are talking about but they have screwed with other property owners in the past.

I totally understand.

I wonder if you guys would be able to put your farm in a conservation easement. You'd give up your development rights but I wonder if that could prevent the city from using eminent domain on a road through your property. There are certainly tax advantages and you guys could get a check for doing it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation_easement

It sounds like your farm is in the path of development so this might be worth looking into.

My advice. GET A LAWYER now and know your rights before you are blindsided. I was notified by a letter one day that said "Your property will be purchased via eminent domain. You have 30 days to get an appraisal. If you don't we will use our appraisal only to establish the value. That's how it goes in most cases. Of course their appraisers are enjoying the government gravy train so they are instructed to value the land for peanuts.

Also, I'd like it be known now that your family does not want a road through your land and you will fight to the end if they try it. They might reroute their road if they know it's going to be a hard battle. The strongest survive. The weakest get rolled over.

Tombstone RJ
03-31-2012, 09:45 PM
I totally understand.

I wonder if you guys would be able to put your farm in a conservation easement. You'd give up your development rights but I wonder if that could prevent the city from using eminent domain on a road through your property. There are certainly tax advantages and you guys could get a check for doing it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation_easement

It sounds like your farm is in the path of development so this might be worth looking into.

My advice. GET A LAWYER now and know your rights before you are blindsided. I was notified by a letter one day that said "Your property will be purchased via eminent domain. You have 30 days to get an appraisal. If you don't we will use our appraisal only to establish the value. That's how it goes in most cases. Of course their appraisers are enjoying the government gravy train so they are instructed to value the land for peanuts.

Also, I'd like it be known now that your family does not want a road through your land and you will fight to the end if they try it. They might reroute their road if they know it's going to be a hard battle. The strongest survive. The weakest get rolled over.

Thanks for the advice Meck. The wiki link you provided states that conservation easments are still subject to eminent domain: As is the case with any property interest, a conservation easement may be taken by eminent domain (and thereby extinguished) when the public value of the proposed project exceeds that of the conservation interest being protected by the easement.

Yah, the land is prime real estate for development and the largest private piece of property within the city limits. It's inevitable that it will be developed and the city has already taken several acres for utility and road easements. They did pay fair market value for the easements which is fine. That being said I'm not looking forward to the future trying to decide what to do about beautiful farm land which has been in the family for 3 generations. We've talked about turning the forested acreage into a conservation or something but have it open to the public, like a park type thing. The other parts of the property are sandwiched between two roads, and one of the roads is becoming a major thoroughfare. However, with the real estate crash I don't think there will be any problems for the forseeable future, it's not like this property is in San Diego or Denver.

That One Guy
03-31-2012, 10:40 PM
Thanks for the advice Meck. The wiki link you provided states that conservation easments are still subject to eminent domain: As is the case with any property interest, a conservation easement may be taken by eminent domain (and thereby extinguished) when the public value of the proposed project exceeds that of the conservation interest being protected by the easement.

Yah, the land is prime real estate for development and the largest private piece of property within the city limits. It's inevitable that it will be developed and the city has already taken several acres for utility and road easements. They did pay fair market value for the easements which is fine. That being said I'm not looking forward to the future trying to decide what to do about beautiful farm land which has been in the family for 3 generations. We've talked about turning the forested acreage into a conservation or something but have it open to the public, like a park type thing. The other parts of the property are sandwiched between two roads, and one of the roads is becoming a major thoroughfare. However, with the real estate crash I don't think there will be any problems for the forseeable future, it's not like this property is in San Diego or Denver.

Complete shot in the dark but look into endangered species. They could be a haven if you can find one that lives on your property. It'd pretty much make your land undevelopable if it'd disturb them and maybe they'd lose interest. You'd have to look into the details and whatnot, though.

Dr. Broncenstein
03-31-2012, 10:55 PM
Complete shot in the dark but look into endangered species. They could be a haven if you can find one that lives on your property. It'd pretty much make your land undevelopable if it'd disturb them and maybe they'd lose interest. You'd have to look into the details and whatnot, though.

I have bats that live in a cave on my property. Heard it was worth significant money to declare your property a bat sanctuary, but I haven't found any specifics to date.

Tombstone RJ
04-01-2012, 09:19 AM
I have bats that live in a cave on my property. Heard it was worth significant money to declare your property a bat sanctuary, but I haven't found any specifics to date.

you need to buy a batmobile and drive it around, freak everyone out. Buy this one: http://www.1966batmobile.com/replica4.htm

smoke them tires!

Dr. Broncenstein
04-01-2012, 09:35 AM
We can't stop here, this is bat country.

Tombstone RJ
04-01-2012, 10:40 AM
We can't stop here, this is bat country.

the batmobile will fit nicely in your garage, right next to the general lee... running roughshod over them thar hills...

Meck77
04-01-2012, 11:24 AM
Thanks for the advice Meck. The wiki link you provided states that conservation easments are still subject to eminent domain: As is the case with any property interest, a conservation easement may be taken by eminent domain (and thereby extinguished) when the public value of the proposed project exceeds that of the conservation interest being protected by the easement.

Yah, the land is prime real estate for development and the largest private piece of property within the city limits. It's inevitable that it will be developed and the city has already taken several acres for utility and road easements. They did pay fair market value for the easements which is fine. That being said I'm not looking forward to the future trying to decide what to do about beautiful farm land which has been in the family for 3 generations. We've talked about turning the forested acreage into a conservation or something but have it open to the public, like a park type thing. The other parts of the property are sandwiched between two roads, and one of the roads is becoming a major thoroughfare. However, with the real estate crash I don't think there will be any problems for the forseeable future, it's not like this property is in San Diego or Denver.

I was afraid of that.

Forested acreage is a good idea. I've done the numbers on tree farms and they are solid. Much more profitable then any livestock or crop you could probably grow in the mountains. If you buy smaller "whips" you can start harvesting dollars in less than 3 years making 5x your initial investment year after year after year. Keep planting, keep harvesting dollars. Could provide a nice slush fund for attorneys later.

R8R H8R
04-01-2012, 02:18 PM
I'm pretty likely to me a transaction in the next few weeks that will yield significant capital gains. I live in California, and the transaction will occur in the same state, subjecting me to 10.5% state capital gains plus almost 15% federal capital gains tax. Read through a bunch of online material and found a few things but wondering if anyone here has had any success minimalizing capital gains taxes and what strategy they used? Any help is appreciatted...

Ask this guy:

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQhDfqZaMGlvA1HkY2qMmgiM0hvVetxu F2PwgGkEB5y2nwIaKU2ew

Or this guy:

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRb3qMVVOFbJ5SwEuURbpGoqECyiyUmO RsuSFianGsx5j7C5Q7rZw

They both have been very successful in minimizing their tax bite in recent years. But I honestly don't know if Geithner is explaining how he only cheated "a little bit" , or he's demonstrating what his wife thinks of his shortcomings.

Cito Pelon
04-01-2012, 03:54 PM
So I buy shares of stock.....you say I didn't "work" for that. But I'm still RISKING my money....what risk is the government taking on my investment?

Explain to me again how taxing capital gains more and more, will encourage investment in business.......

Taxing capital gains builds infrastructure, which in turn builds business.

Cito Pelon
04-01-2012, 04:09 PM
blah, blah, blah. Again, capital gains is a tax on money that has already been taxed. Lot's of non rich people get some capital gains when they do things like sell land (my family for instance that has farmland).

So, we pay taxes on the land, we pay taxes to maintain the land (tractors, repairs, etc., etc.,) then when we go to sell the land we pay taxes and because the land has been in our family for a long, long, long, long time and has increased in value, boom! Capital Gains too!

We are not wealthy, this type of tax sucks.

Yeah, there's some situations where capital gains is ridiculous, but some where those capital gainers should be taxed heavily.

Too bad we don't have a tax system sophisticated enough to sort between those who have a one-time capital gain bigtime score and those that are long-time capital gain scorers. The one-time big hitters get nailed same as the long time scorers.