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KO5K
03-28-2012, 06:25 AM
Multiple pro scouts told NFL Network’s Albert Breer, however, that despite the lofty numbers, Manning was showing signs of decline. He was 34 then, and is now 36.

“The falloff was significant on film,” one scout from an AFC rival team told Breer. “He showed stiffness and lost athletic traits. What made him so special was never his athletic ability or movement skills, but you could see it with his arm strength, too.”

The scout was specifically critical of Manning’s diminished velocity.

“His rotation was fine, his accuracy was fine,” said the scout. “But as far as the ball getting from Point A to Point B, and how much time he was giving defensive backs to drive on the football, there was enough there for concern.”

Observed another executive for a team that pursued Manning offseason, “Seeing some of the footage of him throwing, there was depreciation in velocity and zip.” The club exec does think Manning will be “fine,” and expects his passing velocity and arm power to “keep getting better” while recovering from neck surgeries.



Continues: http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/03/27/nfl-scouts-concerned-about-mannings-arm-strength/

TonyR
03-28-2012, 06:28 AM
Mostly debunked by TJ Johnson at IAOFM:


I decided to look at the tape myself. I first went back to the tape of Manning's play in Super Bowl 44, in which he went 31 of 45 for 333 yards passing and used that as my baseline for comparison. I would classify Manning's velocity in that game as NFL average. Next, I compared it with Manning's last game of 2010, in which the Colts faced the Tennessee Titans. If Manning had lost velocity, it would have become readily apparent by Week 17.

The Titans tried to play Manning in either a Cover 2/Zone Under or a Cover 2/Man Under scheme most of the day. The strength of the Cover 2 (and why it's so popular) is that it takes away big plays and forces the offense to methodically drive down the field. It is susceptible to the deep outside of the field, however, if the quarterback can fit the ball into the compressed windows between the cornerback and the safety coming over the top. It's also weak against a variety of route combinations, like the high/low against the weakside corner or clear/dig routes against the linebackers.

This is exactly how Manning attacked the Titans that day. He got particular use out of his quick game--slant combinations, speed outs to the running backs after the cornerback had been cleared, and a variety of high/low read combinations where he went to the low read. More importantly, he also stuck four intermediate/deep outs in the range of 13-20 yards, which are the gold standard by which a quarterback's arm strength is judged. He even threw a nice 30-yard touchdown in the game with velocity--in fact, with more velocity than Kerry Collins, his counterpart in the game, had shown (this may or may not be saying much, depending on your view of Collins's arm). He was typically Manning--changing plays at the line of scrimmage, isolating his mismatches, and limiting the Titans' ability to substitute on defense. On one particular play of note, he connected with new Broncos tight end, Jacob Tamme, up the seam after seeing the linebacker out of position (the linebacker had made the mistake of biting on a play fake). His timing, ball placement, and location were never better.

Of Manning's forty-one throws, his velocity was poor on four of them. Interestingly enough, they were all throws of fifteen yards or more; further, all four of the poor throws were to the right. I found this even more peculiar given John Elway's mention of it in today's DP article. Still, I wasn't overly concerned. If Manning had truly lost velocity, one would have expected the number of poor throws to be greater.

Perhaps age and injury will tell a different tale. And with a year off, it's impossible to know how much velocity he'll lose--if any. But the idea that his velocity was slipping noticeably in 2010--before the injury--seems a little far-fetched.

http://www.itsalloverfatman.com/broncos/entry/was-peyton-manning-losing-strength-even-before-the-injury

I recommend reading the whole thing including the comments.

TonyR
03-28-2012, 06:30 AM
A comment from Johnson below the article I linked above:

It was pretty exciting. I can tell you this, I commented to Doug as I was watching the tape things, like, "Oh, look, he just noticed the linebacker leaning towards his zone and he's going right after him." Another time it was, "Doug, he just baited the safety into showing his true coverage--cover 1, and now he's going to take a shot deep because he knows the other safety can't get over." Another time I said to Doug, "holy crap, he just went through his fourth progression in just over two seconds. And hit it."

Part of what he does so well--in addition to having a hot route on EVERY passing play--is that he waits so long, the defenders end up showing their leverage--in other words, he notices their subtle leaning to their responsibilities on the play. Most QBs only go so far. They can do the basic stuff--determine the placement of the safeties and make a reasonable guess at man or zone coverage. They usually catch this on their initial "slow scan." What makes Manning so great is his 2nd and 3rd scans. The defense almost always gives away its intentions. It's damn hard for a LB with ADHD to hold himself still for the entirety of the play clock.

KevinJames
03-28-2012, 06:40 AM
Still has a stronger arm than both Tebow & Orton even if hes not 100% so its no big deal to me

BroncoInferno
03-28-2012, 06:45 AM
Manning threw for 4700 yards and 33 TDs with this supposed "decline." Even if their premise is true, they don't seem to consider the possibility that his nagging neck issues were the culprit.

hades
03-28-2012, 06:53 AM
Dangnabbit, we are so screwed now. Why oh why did Elway not see this before he made the offer to bring him on board!

broncswin
03-28-2012, 07:00 AM
Oh snap...we be fooked

TonyR
03-28-2012, 07:24 AM
hades and broncswin, assuming you're serious please read post #2.

Kaylore
03-28-2012, 07:57 AM
We dun goofed! Consequences will never be the same!

The Joker
03-28-2012, 07:59 AM
I are demand teh explanations!

DBroncos4life
03-28-2012, 08:02 AM
We dun goofed! Consequences will never be the same!

I don't know if I can take this much longer. Way back in 2009 when we traded Cutler I saw this team set back 10 years. Flash foward to 2012 after all lose long years of being set back we did it again when we trade Tebow and picked up Manning.

spdirty
03-28-2012, 08:06 AM
I don't know if I can take this much longer. Way back in 2009 when we traded Cutler I saw this team set back 10 years. Flash foward to 2012 after all lose long years of being set back we did it again when we trade Tebow and picked up Manning.

Pretty weird if Bowlen wouldve just done the right thing after firing Shanny in 2009 and hired Elway to be the lead dog this team would be completely different right now and we wouldn't have Manning...probably wouldn't have Fox either.

BroncoBeavis
03-28-2012, 08:11 AM
I don't think it's all that concerning. Nothing matters until gametime.

I just find it funny that all the sudden people like Big Tony are throwing out the whole "Bahhhh...Scouts Schmouts, they don't know what the eff they're talking about"

What a difference a couple weeks makes. :)

Rohirrim
03-28-2012, 09:02 AM
Translation: We didn't get him, ergo he sucks.

hades
03-28-2012, 09:02 AM
hades and broncswin, assuming you're serious please read post #2.

I've read that same thing mentioned in post number 1 on the internet in several places now, so it has to be true! ;)

Drunken.Broncoholic
03-28-2012, 09:04 AM
The ball loses velocity when it's heading to the reciever sideways. We don't have that problem anymore.

Kaylore
03-28-2012, 09:13 AM
I don't know if I can take this much longer. Way back in 2009 when we traded Cutler I saw this team set back 10 years. Flash foward to 2012 after all lose long years of being set back we did it again when we trade Tebow and picked up Manning.

It hasn't really worked out for Cutler in Chi-town. The dude can't stay healthy. And Tebow is still a long shot to be a starter. I'm looking forward to next season, but feel free to take a more dour outlook if you prefer.

Lestat
03-28-2012, 09:13 AM
only three things i care about.
can he read the defense? - yes
can he get the ball from point A to point B in a highly rare manner? - yes
can he get us to the playoffs and drive us deep? - TBD

Broncolt
03-28-2012, 09:13 AM
Ridiculous. Peyton's zip was still, for the most part, the same in 2010, with the exception of a few attempts here and there. Peyton sure did throw more ducks in 2010, especially during that losing streak to NE, DAL, and SD. THAT was due to his neck injury. Hes been playing with that thing since 2006.

Doctors have repeatedly said that Peyton's nerve has still been regenerating and hasnt plateaued yet (which is a good thing). According to these doctors:

1. Peyton is just as injury prone to his neck as if hes never had a neck injury to begin with. In other words, has the same injury risk as the 31 other QBs suited up on gameday.
2. Peyton's velocity/zip will most likely be BETTER than before the surgery. Thats the whole reason he got it... he was losing nerves and couldnt get the right feel of the ball.

With peytons work ethic and determination, hes going to surprise the NFL next season, and shut the doubters up.

Oh lets not forget that his little brother just surpassed him in SB rings. You think Peytons cool with people even mentioning the possible debate that Eli> Peyton?? If anyone is hungry for a SB ring, its Peyton.

Lestat
03-28-2012, 09:16 AM
4,500 yards & 45 TD's isn't a surprise from Peyton Manning, that's a ho hum season. ;D
Ridiculous. Peyton's zip was still, for the most part, the same in 2010, with the exception of a few attempts here and there. Peyton sure did throw more ducks in 2010, especially during that losing streak to NE, DAL, and SD. THAT was due to his neck injury. Hes been playing with that thing since 2006.

Doctors have repeatedly said that Peyton's nerve has still been regenerating and hasnt plateaued yet (which is a good thing). According to these doctors:

1. Peyton is just as injury prone to his neck as if hes never had a neck injury to begin with. In other words, has the same injury risk as the 31 other QBs suited up on gameday.
2. Peyton's velocity/zip will most likely be BETTER than before the surgery. Thats the whole reason he got it... he was losing nerves and couldnt get the right feel of the ball.

With peytons work ethic and determination, hes going to surprise the NFL next season, and shut the doubters up.

Oh lets not forget that his little brother just surpassed him in SB rings. You think Peytons cool with people even mentioning the possible debate that Eli> Peyton?? If anyone is hungry for a SB ring, its Peyton.

Drunken.Broncoholic
03-28-2012, 09:18 AM
Ridiculous. Peyton's zip was still, for the most part, the same in 2010, with the exception of a few attempts here and there. Peyton sure did throw more ducks in 2010, especially during that losing streak to NE, DAL, and SD. THAT was due to his neck injury. Hes been playing with that thing since 2006.

Doctors have repeatedly said that Peyton's nerve has still been regenerating and hasnt plateaued yet (which is a good thing). According to these doctors:

1. Peyton is just as injury prone to his neck as if hes never had a neck injury to begin with. In other words, has the same injury risk as the 31 other QBs suited up on gameday.
2. Peyton's velocity/zip will most likely be BETTER than before the surgery. Thats the whole reason he got it... he was losing nerves and couldnt get the right feel of the ball.

With peytons work ethic and determination, hes going to surprise the NFL next season, and shut the doubters up.

Oh lets not forget that his little brother just surpassed him in SB rings. You think Peytons cool with people even mentioning the possible debate that Eli> Peyton?? If anyone is hungry for a SB ring, its Peyton.

This

Broncolt
03-28-2012, 09:19 AM
4,500 yards & 45 TD's isn't a surprise from Peyton Manning, that's a ho hum season. ;D

Lets make that 51 TDs :thumbsup: He needs to take his record back from the enemy, Tom Brady.

Lestat
03-28-2012, 09:24 AM
lol if he takes it back it's 55+ all the way.
Lets make that 51 TDs :thumbsup: He needs to take his record back from the enemy, Tom Brady.

Kaylore
03-28-2012, 09:33 AM
Ridiculous. Peyton's zip was still, for the most part, the same in 2010, with the exception of a few attempts here and there. Peyton sure did throw more ducks in 2010, especially during that losing streak to NE, DAL, and SD. THAT was due to his neck injury. Hes been playing with that thing since 2006.

Doctors have repeatedly said that Peyton's nerve has still been regenerating and hasnt plateaued yet (which is a good thing). According to these doctors:

1. Peyton is just as injury prone to his neck as if hes never had a neck injury to begin with. In other words, has the same injury risk as the 31 other QBs suited up on gameday.
2. Peyton's velocity/zip will most likely be BETTER than before the surgery. Thats the whole reason he got it... he was losing nerves and couldnt get the right feel of the ball.

With peytons work ethic and determination, hes going to surprise the NFL next season, and shut the doubters up.

Oh lets not forget that his little brother just surpassed him in SB rings. You think Peytons cool with people even mentioning the possible debate that Eli> Peyton?? If anyone is hungry for a SB ring, its Peyton.

Great post. Keep doing this. Welcome!

BroncoBen
03-28-2012, 10:14 AM
The ball loses velocity when it's heading to the reciever sideways. We don't have that problem anymore.

No kidding... at lease the Balls will not be thrown into ground or behind the WRs anymore.
Velocity is not going to be an issue...

Broncolt
03-28-2012, 10:21 AM
Great post. Keep doing this. Welcome!

Thank you thank you! Just tryna give in some logical input...it bugs me to see so many doubters about next season in regards to Manning. The media just likes to speculate, create stories for the buzz and whatnot.

DBroncos4life
03-28-2012, 10:24 AM
It hasn't really worked out for Cutler in Chi-town. The dude can't stay healthy. And Tebow is still a long shot to be a starter. I'm looking forward to next season, but feel free to take a more dour outlook if you prefer.

No I'm totally happy with Manning man. As for Cutler that was a fluke deal. The guy was playing just about as good as a QB in the NFL right up to his injury. Tebow will get another coach fired this year. Ryan has no idea what he has done. Though I do think that opens the door for McD to be reunited with Tebow in New York.

Mogulseeker
03-28-2012, 10:34 AM
Sour grapes

Mediator12
03-28-2012, 11:25 AM
The whole REASON Manning had the surgery was to regenerate the nerves! The dude is a perfectionist and knew he was having problems with some throws because of his injury. He played through it for 2 years and was DAMN good even with a reduced velocity on some throws.

His velocity has never been more than NFL average. He started throwing less spirals too over the last few years. However, as he heals he might actually get better! Otherwise, we are stuck with just a top 4 QB and not the best ;D

BroncoBeavis
03-28-2012, 11:43 AM
The whole REASON Manning had the surgery was to regenerate the nerves! The dude is a perfectionist and knew he was having problems with some throws because of his injury. He played through it for 2 years and was DAMN good even with a reduced velocity on some throws.

His velocity has never been more than NFL average. He started throwing less spirals too over the last few years. However, as he heals he might actually get better! Otherwise, we are stuck with just a top 4 QB and not the best ;D

The surgery didn't do anything to the nerves other then give them a chance to regenerate and prevent them from getting worse.

If he kept playing through it, it's likely he would've started struggling more and more.

ZONA
03-28-2012, 12:20 PM
weak stuff.........get it? hahaha

crush17
03-28-2012, 12:23 PM
The surgery didn't do anything to the nerves other then give them a chance to regenerate and prevent them from getting worse.

If he kept playing through it, it's likely he would've started struggling more and more.

Nurrrrrrrrrrrrr...

Ya think? Holy **** youre an idiot.

BroncoBeavis
03-28-2012, 12:41 PM
Nurrrrrrrrrrrrr...

Ya think? Holy **** youre an idiot.

Better take it up with the guy who said Manning only had the surgery because he's a perfectionist.

Delta B

rbackfactory80
03-28-2012, 12:44 PM
You guys ever seen Rich Gannon play?

Peyton's nerve
03-28-2012, 12:54 PM
Beavis is right. I was shot.

bronco militia
03-28-2012, 01:18 PM
Beavis is right. I was shot.

LOL

the nerve of some people....hopefully you're not related to Pat Bowlen.

Mediator12
03-28-2012, 02:07 PM
The surgery didn't do anything to the nerves other then give them a chance to regenerate and prevent them from getting worse.

If he kept playing through it, it's likely he would've started struggling more and more.

You realize your first sentence is an oxymoron to your point right? And you have no idea about nerve damage. Just getting pressure off the nerve can allow recovery to 100%.

YIKES!

broncswin
03-28-2012, 02:08 PM
hades and broncswin, assuming you're serious please read post #2.

no...no...no...no...no...not serious ROFL!

BroncoBeavis
03-28-2012, 02:16 PM
You realize your first sentence is an oxymoron to your point right? And you have no idea about nerve damage. Just getting pressure off the nerve can allow recovery to 100%.

YIKES!

You said

The dude is a perfectionist and knew he was having problems with some throws because of his injury. He played through it for 2 years and was DAMN good even with a reduced velocity on some throws.

I'm saying Peyton probably wouldn't have risked the surgeries (and the lengthy sideline time) if it was just about improving how he was already playing. He had the surgery because if he didn't have it, he was going to get even worse. The surgery wasn't so much about regenerating the nerve, although there is some hope there, but it was more important to stop the deterioration. Had Peyton been able to keep playing at his 2010 level, I'm sure he would have indefinitely vs skipping a season.

Peyton's nerve
03-28-2012, 02:18 PM
no...no...no...no...no...not serious ROFL!

I don't know. Beavis is making cognizant points and I heard ray ray is gonna hit me, so I'm not feeling too swell right now.

baja
03-28-2012, 02:18 PM
But then he wouldn't have become a Bronco!

Broncos_OTM
03-28-2012, 02:33 PM
Looking forward to seeing peyton going no huddle at mile high!

barryr
03-28-2012, 06:25 PM
Not sure what there is to freak out about with this. Manning is 36 and may have lost some arm strength. Like this doesn't happen to any QB's when they get older? I see no big deal.

Mediator12
03-28-2012, 06:43 PM
You said



I'm saying Peyton probably wouldn't have risked the surgeries (and the lengthy sideline time) if it was just about improving how he was already playing. He had the surgery because if he didn't have it, he was going to get even worse. The surgery wasn't so much about regenerating the nerve, although there is some hope there, but it was more important to stop the deterioration. Had Peyton been able to keep playing at his 2010 level, I'm sure he would have indefinitely vs skipping a season.

He thought and was told he would NOT miss a season. Then, the Doctor who performed the first surgery did not actually finish fixing the problem. Which lead to the second surgery. And, finally the day before he had the third surgery, the Colts were preparing to have him back in Training camp.

He had the initial surgery to allow the pressure on the nerve to be relieved, but the Doctor did not do the Job right. Heck, even Manning gets a bad surgery. And, it took 3 more to fix the one bad one. The surgeon's ineptitude is what cost him and the Colts his services last season. He was supposed to be back well before last training camp.

The Surgery was completely about relieving the nerve pressure and allowing him the arm strength and endurance he had in his other arm. Believe me, I lived every minute here in INDY.

Punisher
03-28-2012, 07:05 PM
Manning threw for 4700 yards and 33 TDs with this supposed "decline." Even if their premise is true, they don't seem to consider the possibility that his nagging neck issues were the culprit.

this

R8R H8R
03-28-2012, 07:07 PM
No I'm totally happy with Manning man. As for Cutler that was a fluke deal. The guy was playing just about as good as a QB in the NFL right up to his injury. Tebow will get another coach fired this year. Ryan has no idea what he has done. Though I do think that opens the door for McD to be reunited with Tebow in New York.

Another coach fired? What are you talking about? McD got himself fired. I hope you are not going to try to argue otherwise. However, I can make an argument that Tebow had a hand, in a smart part, in getting one coach promoted(Allen), and darn near got his OC a HC job, all in the same year.

I'm no fan of Rex Ryan, but if he is fired this year, his mouth will have more to do with that than Tebow ever will. The dysfunction in his locker room was there long before Tebow ever got there. In fact, Tebow may have been brought in partly to help put a band aid on an already toxic atmosphere.

Look, I don't give a crap whether you like or hate Tebow, but I just don't get where the vitriol comes from towards this kid. So what if he can't throw. He won games and helped bring this team back to relevance for the 1st time in about 7 years. He's gone now, no need to trash him.

peacepipe
03-28-2012, 07:17 PM
I hope Manning is listening to all this,I'm sure he'll have an even bigger chip on his shoulders as a result. I think PM goes into the season highly motivated by this,making me a happy camper.

R8R H8R
03-28-2012, 08:08 PM
I hope Manning is listening to all this,I'm sure he'll have an even bigger chip on his shoulders as a result. I think PM goes into the season highly motivated by this,making me a happy camper.

After listening to an interview of Manning on 104.3 today, he said that he has been in the Denver complex working out, and get this, apparently living there since his introduction PC. So yea, I think he has a HUGE chip on his shoulder, and he wants revenge. The heart of a champion.

broncswin
03-28-2012, 08:15 PM
I don't know. Beavis is making cognizant points and I heard ray ray is gonna hit me, so I'm not feeling too swell right now.

WTF...lmao...this may be one of the weirdest things I have been a part of...and that is saying a lot, Mr. Nerve.

Agamemnon
03-29-2012, 12:36 AM
LOL at all the people poo-pooing the idea that Manning's physical tools might be in decline. Oh the power of willful delusion...

derp
03-29-2012, 05:17 AM
Oh the power of willful delusion...

Quoth the Tebow fan.

SPORTSWRITER
03-29-2012, 06:28 AM
Mostly debunked by TJ Johnson at IAOFM:


I decided to look at the tape myself. I first went back to the tape of Manning's play in Super Bowl 44, in which he went 31 of 45 for 333 yards passing and used that as my baseline for comparison. I would classify Manning's velocity in that game as NFL average. Next, I compared it with Manning's last game of 2010, in which the Colts faced the Tennessee Titans. If Manning had lost velocity, it would have become readily apparent by Week 17.

The Titans tried to play Manning in either a Cover 2/Zone Under or a Cover 2/Man Under scheme most of the day. The strength of the Cover 2 (and why it's so popular) is that it takes away big plays and forces the offense to methodically drive down the field. It is susceptible to the deep outside of the field, however, if the quarterback can fit the ball into the compressed windows between the cornerback and the safety coming over the top. It's also weak against a variety of route combinations, like the high/low against the weakside corner or clear/dig routes against the linebackers.

This is exactly how Manning attacked the Titans that day. He got particular use out of his quick game--slant combinations, speed outs to the running backs after the cornerback had been cleared, and a variety of high/low read combinations where he went to the low read. More importantly, he also stuck four intermediate/deep outs in the range of 13-20 yards, which are the gold standard by which a quarterback's arm strength is judged. He even threw a nice 30-yard touchdown in the game with velocity--in fact, with more velocity than Kerry Collins, his counterpart in the game, had shown (this may or may not be saying much, depending on your view of Collins's arm). He was typically Manning--changing plays at the line of scrimmage, isolating his mismatches, and limiting the Titans' ability to substitute on defense. On one particular play of note, he connected with new Broncos tight end, Jacob Tamme, up the seam after seeing the linebacker out of position (the linebacker had made the mistake of biting on a play fake). His timing, ball placement, and location were never better.

Of Manning's forty-one throws, his velocity was poor on four of them. Interestingly enough, they were all throws of fifteen yards or more; further, all four of the poor throws were to the right. I found this even more peculiar given John Elway's mention of it in today's DP article. Still, I wasn't overly concerned. If Manning had truly lost velocity, one would have expected the number of poor throws to be greater.

Perhaps age and injury will tell a different tale. And with a year off, it's impossible to know how much velocity he'll lose--if any. But the idea that his velocity was slipping noticeably in 2010--before the injury--seems a little far-fetched.

http://www.itsalloverfatman.com/broncos/entry/was-peyton-manning-losing-strength-even-before-the-injury

I recommend reading the whole thing including the comments.

Important to remember that Peyton probably played the 2010 season in discomfort from his neck injury. Those type of injuries seldom occur all at once, and are likely to get worse with time and absent of any specific treatment program. I believe his surgery and the time off will only help. I had virtually the same surgery about ten years ago, and it took me about 16 months to regain all of my strength. I believe Peyton will be fine!

TonyR
03-29-2012, 06:54 AM
Manning moved his rehab to Denver’s facility immediately after signing, and has done all he can—which is very limited at this point, due to the new offseason rules—to get ready for the 2012 season, his first in the NFL in colors other than the Colts’ blue and white.

“It’s great to have him there, and obviously he’s full of knowledge,” Broncos executive vice president John Elway told NFL Network. “But he’s still going through his rehab process and working hard. With the new rules, we can only do so much, but he’s working hard on rehabbing his arm. And he’s been working out, throwing with the guys, and that’s the kind of guy he is. He’s got our playbook, so he’s had his head in the playbook trying to learn, and kind of combine what he’s used and what we do.”

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d827ef799/article/expectations-high-as-peyton-manning-broncos-get-acclimated

Rabb
03-29-2012, 08:14 AM
Elway cannot complete a sentence without using the word obviously

bronco militia
04-03-2012, 12:02 PM
UP

Peyton's nerve
04-03-2012, 12:07 PM
I feel a little numb today