PDA

View Full Version : The Manning offense - Parts 1-6


TonyR
03-24-2012, 02:17 PM
Manning said at his introductory presser that he wasnít going to be the offensive coordinator. Thatís literally true, in the sense that he wonít have that title. He almost certainly will be leading the installation of his own offense, though. John Fox said on Sirius the other day that he expects there to be a collaboration process between what Manning and McCoy like. Translation: Manning's offense will be used.

Manningís offense is the simplest in the NFL, which has the benefit of making it 100% callable from the line of scrimmage, and with every play available. For all the talk about audibling, most teams in the NFL primarily use a check-with-me system. That means that there will be a call made in the huddle, and also a coach-selected second call that should exploit a defense which is aligned well to defend the first call. By doing it this way, the QB can just yell out ďALERT! ALERT!Ē or something to that effect, and switch the play to the alternate call that everybody is expecting. Nothing is given away to the defense, because the check-off play will be something different every time the offense huddles.

The Manning offense (I call it that, because thereís nothing else like it) features about six running plays and 10 pass concepts. Each of those plays will have a number of different code words related to them, so that if I call out GLENGARRY once, and itís an inside run, I donít have to use GLENGARRY again for the same inside run later. I can have GLENGARRY, NEBRASKA, CHATTANOOGA, MARLINESPIKE, and AVALANCHE all mean the same inside running play.

I can also use a lot of dummy words, and have an activating word, which changes by the series. Manning has used that approach over the years. You might hear:
Odd 44, stack, calliope, 52ís the Mike, yellow 13, alert, alert, slide left, extra, reliable, GLENGARRY, maximum, overload right, green 27, set hut!
Most of that doesnít mean anything Ė I just made it up, but letís say Odd 44 means that the defense is in a three-man front and the two DEs are in 4-techniques. 52 is the Mike is self-explanatory. Reliable is the activating word, meaning that the word that comes after it, GLENGARRY, indicates the play call. The rest of it is dummy information. Maybe Manning says slide left, but that doesnít mean the offensive line will. He says overload right, even if there isnít an overload to the right.

Manning is the only QB in the NFL who is afforded the ability to call his own plays at the line of scrimmage whenever he feels he should. Itís worked really well, so thereís no reason to change that. Weíll get into recognition a little later, and how he chooses plays. For now, just understand that itís up to him in those moments when heís barking out random-sounding words, and that some of those words mean things.

Read the whole thing here: http://www.itsalloverfatman.com/broncos/entry/understanding-the-manning-offense-part-1

GreeleyGrizzley
03-24-2012, 02:28 PM
I can't wait to see Manning stand up there and do his thing, in orange! I still can't believe he's a Bronco. It's so great because I've seen him do it week in and week out, victimizing defenses across the league. Let's do it Manning!! I am pumped...

Alright, back to technical discussion of the offense...

Rohirrim
03-24-2012, 02:30 PM
That's all well and good, but I'll bet I'll still be sitting there on Sunday thinking, "Snap the goddamn ball!"

I kid. :puff:

I'm looking forward to seeing this operate.

Agamemnon
03-24-2012, 04:15 PM
It will certainly be better than anything McCoy would be able to manage. I'll say that much.

Cito Pelon
03-24-2012, 04:28 PM
This pretty much illustrates what a ridiculous signing this was.

TonyR
03-24-2012, 04:32 PM
This pretty much illustrates what a ridiculous signing this was.

How so? Just curious what you mean.

SonOfLe-loLang
03-24-2012, 04:33 PM
Yeah. How

KevinJames
03-24-2012, 04:34 PM
<object width="420" height="315"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/hVx4EjaqY78?version=3&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/hVx4EjaqY78?version=3&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="420" height="315" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true"></embed></object>

UberBroncoMan
03-24-2012, 04:36 PM
Was so sick of running on first down every ****ing time for 2nd and long.

Agamemnon
03-24-2012, 04:37 PM
Was so sick of running on first down every ****ing time for 2nd and long.

Well now we'll be passing on most first downs so rejoice! ;)

Cito Pelon
03-24-2012, 04:38 PM
How so? Just curious what you mean.

Manning's not gonna come in here and run some kind of kickass, no-huddle call it at the line offense, no way.

Agamemnon
03-24-2012, 04:39 PM
<object width="420" height="315"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/hVx4EjaqY78?version=3&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/hVx4EjaqY78?version=3&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="420" height="315" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true"></embed></object>

God that has always annoyed me so much. Now I get to watch it every Sunday. We better win a ****ing Super Bowl. That's all I've got to say.

UberBroncoMan
03-24-2012, 04:42 PM
<object width="420" height="315"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/hVx4EjaqY78?version=3&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/hVx4EjaqY78?version=3&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="420" height="315" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true"></embed></object>

**** do I miss Al Wilson.

He was our Peyton Manning of Defense. Downhill since.

Wish we could get him in to coach up and mentor Irving for the off-preseason.

Cito Pelon
03-24-2012, 04:43 PM
Yeah. How

Manning won't come in here and take off from where he left off 3 years ago. Not gonna happen. Sorry, but it's not gonna happen. He wasn't the kickass guy people like to think of him anyway, except for reg season.

DenverBrit
03-24-2012, 05:26 PM
**** do I miss Al Wilson.

He was our Peyton Manning of Defense. Downhill since.

Wish we could get him in to coach up and mentor Irving for the off-preseason.

Yeah, Al went to TN and knew Manning's theatrics were mostly nonsense.
He would shift the D at the last minute so there would be no time for PM to change the play again.

We really need another Al.

TonyR
03-24-2012, 05:26 PM
Manning won't come in here and take off from where he left off 3 years ago. Not gonna happen. Sorry, but it's not gonna happen. He wasn't the kickass guy people like to think of him anyway, except for reg season.

3 year ago? The season before last he passed for 4,700 yards (his best ever) and 33 TD's.

broncolife
03-24-2012, 05:27 PM
Yeah, Al went to TN and knew Manning's theatrics were mostly nonsense.
He would shift the D at the last minute so there would be no time for PM to change the play again.

We really need another Al.

but, but we have Joe Mays:)

Hercules Rockefeller
03-24-2012, 05:46 PM
It will certainly be better than anything McCoy would be able to manage. I'll say that much.

Yeah, McCoy was able to run an offense with a QB who couldn't complete 1 out 2 passes and succeed. ****ing moron probably can't do jack with a real QB who can actually throw the ball.

jerseyguy4
03-24-2012, 05:59 PM
The "Peyton Manning Offense" has evolved a lot of his career.

Offhand, I would mark the huddle evolution points as:
- (start of career) regular QB who huddles except under 2 minutes
- started stretching the 2 minute no-huddle into longer stretches when needed
- no huddle all the time

similarly, the play calling has evolved....I only know what the articles said at the time. but it went something like this:
- regular. Tom Moore was calling the plays
- Moore would call in 3 plays, and allow Peyton to choose among them
- Moore would call in an "idea", and Peyton would work with that. Possibly it would be scrapped at the line if necessary
- Moore stopped calling plays, and instead would call in whatever information Peyton and he agreed was most useful. Peyton was basically running his own show.

Actually, I would be a little surprised if the Manning/McCoy agreement was straight "do whatever you think works" right out of the gate. One of Manning's best qualities is that he's been flexible over the years. McCoy and Manning need to come up with a new system, a Denver Broncos system, and a Manning-McCoy system.

Honestly, it could be just about anything and I wouldn't be surprised. I do expect it to be a damn good show though. As fans, we might need a little patience too. Might take a few games to find a rhythm.

bombay
03-24-2012, 05:59 PM
Manning won't come in here and take off from where he left off 3 years ago. Not gonna happen. Sorry, but it's not gonna happen. He wasn't the kickass guy people like to think of him anyway, except for reg season.

Three years ago?

I wonder what happened in 2010.

bombay
03-24-2012, 06:02 PM
Whatever happens, Tebow is gone, so it will be about football, not who may get their feelings hurt, whether the OC can invent a high school offense on the fly, etc.


What a relief.

jerseyguy4
03-24-2012, 06:21 PM
<object width="420" height="315"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/hVx4EjaqY78?version=3&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/hVx4EjaqY78?version=3&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="420" height="315" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true"></embed></object>
Not sure when this video was from, but Glenn retired after 2006.
To continue on my previous post, this was mid career Manning. You can see they were still showing huddles, which eventually were almost non existant.

Kinda joking, but Saturday and all the linemen often complained that they spent so much time at the line, it was killing their legs and knees. Maybe that's why he went to GB

Manningís offense is the simplest in the NFL, which has the benefit of making it 100% callable from the line of scrimmage, and with every play available.
Very true.

extralife
03-24-2012, 06:28 PM
Manning won't come in here and take off from where he left off 3 years ago. Not gonna happen. Sorry, but it's not gonna happen. He wasn't the kickass guy people like to think of him anyway, except for reg season.

whelp, I'm convinced

BroncoBeavis
03-24-2012, 06:30 PM
Three years ago?

I wonder what happened in 2010.

Had to rally to make the playoffs then one n done loss to the Jets in the Wild Card game.

Rohirrim
03-24-2012, 06:50 PM
Manning won't come in here and take off from where he left off 3 years ago. Not gonna happen. Sorry, but it's not gonna happen. He wasn't the kickass guy people like to think of him anyway, except for reg season.

Like the OP says, it's not that complex of an offense. I'm sure the Broncos won't have any trouble with it.

Gutless Drunk
03-24-2012, 07:26 PM
Manning won't come in here and take off from where he left off 3 years ago. Not gonna happen. Sorry, but it's not gonna happen. He wasn't the kickass guy people like to think of him anyway, except for reg season.

30505

ZONA
03-24-2012, 08:18 PM
There's no doubt Manning will put his stamp on the offense but I'll bet anything you won't see the Broncos passing the ball nearly as much as the Colts offense did. Elway knows all to well how important a solid running game is and I think he's convinced Manning that is going to be his best friend as he enters the home run stretch of his career.

DenverBrit
03-24-2012, 08:20 PM
but, but we have Joe Mays:)

Like many here, I was hoping he'd be the backup.

barryr
03-24-2012, 08:58 PM
If Irving can't show he's ready, then it's back to Mays again. I'm not too excited of that possibility.

maven
03-24-2012, 09:25 PM
man... this is going to be a fun season as a Bronco fan. I am really looking forward to it.

mhgaffney
03-24-2012, 09:35 PM
man... this is going to be a fun season as a Bronco fan. I am really looking forward to it.

yeah, if we can get past our Manning hate.

Dedhed
03-24-2012, 09:45 PM
The "Peyton Manning Offense" has evolved a lot of his career.

Offhand, I would mark the huddle evolution points as:
- (start of career) regular QB who huddles except under 2 minutes
- started stretching the 2 minute no-huddle into longer stretches when needed
- no huddle all the time

similarly, the play calling has evolved....I only know what the articles said at the time. but it went something like this:
- regular. Tom Moore was calling the plays
- Moore would call in 3 plays, and allow Peyton to choose among them
- Moore would call in an "idea", and Peyton would work with that. Possibly it would be scrapped at the line if necessary
- Moore stopped calling plays, and instead would call in whatever information Peyton and he agreed was most useful. Peyton was basically running his own show.

Actually, I would be a little surprised if the Manning/McCoy agreement was straight "do whatever you think works" right out of the gate. One of Manning's best qualities is that he's been flexible over the years. McCoy and Manning need to come up with a new system, a Denver Broncos system, and a Manning-McCoy system.

Honestly, it could be just about anything and I wouldn't be surprised. I do expect it to be a damn good show though. As fans, we might need a little patience too. Might take a few games to find a rhythm.The problem with the model is that most of the skill players on offense were also a part of that evolution over a 5-6 year period.. We don't have the time to evolve on offense if we're going to have success within Manning's window.

Jetmeck
03-24-2012, 09:49 PM
There's no doubt Manning will put his stamp on the offense but I'll bet anything you won't see the Broncos passing the ball nearly as much as the Colts offense did. Elway knows all to well how important a solid running game is and I think he's convinced Manning that is going to be his best friend as he enters the home run stretch of his career.

like this idea but we better get willis some help..............

Bronco Boy
03-24-2012, 09:51 PM
The problem with the model is that most of the skill players on offense were also a part of that evolution over a 5-6 year period.. We don't have the time to evolve on offense if we're going to have success within Manning's window.

Colts were 13-3 Mannings's 2nd season.

Bronco_Beerslug
03-24-2012, 09:51 PM
It will certainly be better than anything McCoy would be able to manage. I'll say that much.
Why are you here?

jerseyguy4
03-24-2012, 10:02 PM
The problem with the model is that most of the skill players on offense were also a part of that evolution over a 5-6 year period.. We don't have the time to evolve on offense if we're going to have success within Manning's window.
Running backs came and went. Wayne and Harrison were long term, but I think less important in the evolution of the Colts offense. The hardest part I thought was the O line, which is why I was surprised to see Elway let Saturday get away to GB.

I agree with you, but I don't think it has to evolve in the same way it did for the Colts (meaning back to ground 0). There's a lot of experience to build upon. It'll be a different process altogether, as it should be. No reason to recreate the Colts here.

We sit here discussing, but I almost guarantee that process has already begun. Manning was previously working out with old friends at Duke. But I would bet that has already changed, that he's reached out to the Broncos WR group, and that they are already throwing passes together.

Mediator12
03-24-2012, 10:05 PM
The problem with the model is that most of the skill players on offense were also a part of that evolution over a 5-6 year period.. We don't have the time to evolve on offense if we're going to have success within Manning's window.

Nah. Not really. They added new guys all the time. New WR's flourished in the slot, Tamme played better than Dallas 2 years ago, New RB's moved in and out of the lineup.

The thing about INDY, is those skill position guys were Not super-talented guys outside of Marvin Harrison and Edgerrin James. There are a Lot of just solid guys like Dallas, Reggie, Collie, Garcon and others who rolled in and played well in a real simple system.

The one thing the experienced guys could do is change route setups on the fly. They could extend a comeback 2 steps to get a deep CB to flip his hips and turn as they shortened his cushion and then throw the ball (ala Darrent Williams). Then, they would adjust a Sluggo to that new depth and score the Winning TD as the CB bit on the underneath read with no help overtop and getting pummeled on outs, comebacks and slants all game.

Still can not believe Manning threw that pick to Porter in the SB when they had him so set up for that same move with Wayne on third down.

That is the adjustability that he has at the LOS. That versus, a two route half field zone read. I'll take the former please ;D

Dedhed
03-24-2012, 10:06 PM
Colts were 13-3 Mannings's 2nd season.
and his 1st?

Dedhed
03-24-2012, 10:10 PM
Nah. Not really. They added new guys all the time. New WR's flourished in the slot, Tamme played better than Dallas 2 years ago, New RB's moved in and out of the lineup.

The thing about INDY, is those skill position guys were Not super-talented guys outside of Marvin Harrison and Edgerrin James. There are a Lot of just solid guys like Dallas, Reggie, Collie, Garcon and others who rolled in and played well in a real simple system.

The one thing the experienced guys could do is change route setups on the fly. They could extend a comeback 2 steps to get a deep CB to flip his hips and turn as they shortened his cushion and then throw the ball (ala Darrent Williams). Then, they would adjust a Sluggo to that new depth and score the Winning TD as the CB bit on the underneath read with no help overtop and getting pummeled on outs, comebacks and slants all game.

Still can not believe Manning threw that pick to Porter in the SB when they had him so set up for that same move with Wayne on third down.

That is the adjustability that he has at the LOS. That versus, a two route half field zone read. I'll take the former please ;D
Great take. However, there is really a call for immediate success here. Bowlen has to pony up a guaranteed $40M+ at the end of the season.

cutthemdown
03-24-2012, 10:14 PM
**** do I miss Al Wilson.

He was our Peyton Manning of Defense. Downhill since.

Wish we could get him in to coach up and mentor Irving for the off-preseason.

LOL I doubt it. I would say the Broncos relationship with Wilson probably a tad soured.

Bronco Boy
03-24-2012, 10:16 PM
and his 1st?

You said 5-6 years. It only took one.

Dedhed
03-24-2012, 10:29 PM
You said 5-6 years. It only took one.

You really think Bowlen is going to pony up $40M if we bomb next year?

Bronco Boy
03-24-2012, 10:37 PM
You really think Bowlen is going to pony up $40M if we bomb next year?

So Manning's a rookie now. Damn that sucks.

Mediator12
03-25-2012, 07:03 AM
The whole thing with INDY in the Dungy era and then Polians mess, was we will out play you, not outscheme you. It allowed them to get just guys in the draft, without any real talent, and plug and play with simple scheme's and just say here we come, try and beat us.

The problem is, without Manning's control over the offense, to get in and out of the right play, the offense could not cover its role last year. And, the defense had NO secondary to cover let alone play the run good enough, even with its "starters" the last 2 years.

They fell apart at the seams with a combination of putting all their eggs in one injury away screwed basket and poor attention to personnel on defense the last 4 years. They never replaced Sanders or their CB's appropriately and it made their pass rush less effective as teams could 3 and 5 step them to death.

DEN does not have that problem right now. They are actually much better suited to how Manning wants to play, and better on the back end suprisingly.

Gort
03-25-2012, 07:16 AM
The problem with the model is that most of the skill players on offense were also a part of that evolution over a 5-6 year period.. We don't have the time to evolve on offense if we're going to have success within Manning's window.

this. this. this!

why don't people understand that what Manning built in Indy takes time to implement and perfect. he and his OL and his receivers need to work together to put his system in place and it cannot be done in 1 year and it cannot be done with rookies. this is why i was concerned about this signing and this is why the FO had better get its act together and start bringing in players who can pick the system up quickly so Manning can start practicing with them and getting the timing down. we have a 2-3 year window and the clock is ticking. we cannot put the other pieces into place via the draft. rookies generally don't walk off the college campus and into an NFL locker room ready to be starters. that's why the rebuild is over. we will need to sign FAs and make trades and that's why we will have no real draft this year (picks traded away) if the FO really intends to win now.

Ingame
03-25-2012, 07:20 AM
30505

What I noticed from his great 2010 season
QB ratings against the west-
KC- 65.0
SD- 59.8
Oak- 76.9

CEH
03-25-2012, 07:42 AM
I can see our offense at 25.5+ ppg.If our defense can get to 21 ppg there is no reason not to go 12-4. Point differential of +5 would be huge.

BroncoBeavis
03-25-2012, 07:51 AM
There's no doubt Manning will put his stamp on the offense but I'll bet anything you won't see the Broncos passing the ball nearly as much as the Colts offense did. Elway knows all to well how important a solid running game is and I think he's convinced Manning that is going to be his best friend as he enters the home run stretch of his career.

Yeah that's why we saw the Kyle Orton Broncs totally poundin the rock weeks 1-5 Hilarious!

rbackfactory80
03-25-2012, 07:52 AM
Chargers own Manning.


Yours Truly,

TonyR
03-25-2012, 10:36 AM
and his 1st?

What was Indy's record the year before Manning took over? What was Denver's record last year? Do you see a difference here?

TonyR
03-25-2012, 10:38 AM
this. this. this!

Other than the fact that subsequent posters destroyed the take you're so emphatically agreeing with, yes...

Gort
03-25-2012, 11:29 AM
Other than the fact that subsequent posters destroyed the take you're so emphatically agreeing with, yes...

nobody destroyed this take.

the Broncos were 4-12 in 2010. they started 1-4 last year running an offense closer to Manning's style. even after the changes for Tebow, we only went 8-8. as you so often reminded us, that 8-8 could have easily been 4-12 or 5-11 if not for some remarkable luck (MIA, SD, NYJ, CHI). you don't put Manning into the same system with essentially the same players and automatically become a SB contender.

you need to get complementary players and you need to get them fast. you can't draft them and wait 2 or 3 years for them to mature into starters.

anyone who thinks otherwise is really suffering from wishful thinking.

to win with Manning, this FO needs to get moving and start getting the best possible players to fill our many holes as is possible. they need to do this now and they need to use our draft picks in 2012 and 2013 to facilitiate whatever trades we might need to pull off. we are not rebuilding through the draft anymore, we are reloading with FAs and veterans.

feel free to attempt to dispute these self-obvious facts.

TonyR
03-25-2012, 11:45 AM
nobody destroyed this take....

His point was that we don't have 5-6 years for our offense to evolve. The reality is that we don't need that long. Manning took over a terrible team and had them at 13-3 his second year.

Gort
03-25-2012, 11:52 AM
His point was that we don't have 5-6 years for our offense to evolve. The reality is that we don't need that long. Manning took over a terrible team and had them at 13-3 his second year.

here's my point. we have 2 or 3 years with Manning. i know he signed a 5 year contract, but he'll turn 39 before his 4th season here. so let's just all agree that we should be shooting for a trip to the SB in 2013 or 2014. even if 2012 is a throwaway year to get everyone up to speed and Manning up to speed, we cannot fill the holes we have using the draft. we have one 1st, one 2nd, and one 3rd right now for 2012, IIRC. realistically, those are the only rounds that you can expect to find starters. but those guys will be rookies. even if we get rookies good enough to start, they will play like rookies. so we must get FAs and other veterans by trade because you can't rely on 3 picks in 2012 and 3 picks in 2013 to come in and be legit NFL starters in their first and second years. it doesn't work that way, even if your organization is really good at drafting, which we are not. so how do we become a SB contender in 2013 and 2014? by addressing our needs now with solid or elite veterans. remember, Champ is getting older too. he might not be a CB anymore in 2 or 3 years. and we might lose some of our good players to free agency as well.

the whole thing is a big jigsaw puzzle. Manning (if healthy) is just one part of that puzzle. this FO needs to start working on the rest of the puzzle ASAP.

bendog
03-25-2012, 12:40 PM
nobody destroyed this take.

the Broncos were 4-12 in 2010. they started 1-4 last year running an offense closer to Manning's style. even after the changes for Tebow, we only went 8-8. as you so often reminded us, that 8-8 could have easily been 4-12 or 5-11 if not for some remarkable luck (MIA, SD, NYJ, CHI). you don't put Manning into the same system with essentially the same players and automatically become a SB contender.

you need to get complementary players and you need to get them fast. you can't draft them and wait 2 or 3 years for them to mature into starters.

anyone who thinks otherwise is really suffering from wishful thinking.

to win with Manning, this FO needs to get moving and start getting the best possible players to fill our many holes as is possible. they need to do this now and they need to use our draft picks in 2012 and 2013 to facilitiate whatever trades we might need to pull off. we are not rebuilding through the draft anymore, we are reloading with FAs and veterans.

feel free to attempt to dispute these self-obvious facts.

it's absurd because Orton couldn't back 8 out of the box, which is why they couldn't run. Teams play 5 OUT of the box against manning.
Give it a ****ing rest.

Gort
03-25-2012, 12:53 PM
it's absurd because Orton couldn't back 8 out of the box, which is why they couldn't run. Teams play 5 OUT of the box against manning.
Give it a ****ing rest.

you people with your magic beans theory... it's just nonsense.

signing Manning doesn't do a damned thing to address the multiple problems on defense.

signing Manning requires us to run out of a 3-receiver set. who are these 3 receivers? DT? Decker? and who? DT and Decker are very young and inexperienced. are you going to draft another receiver? is he going to be productive as a rookie? is Manning going to have the timing worked out with these guys in just 1 camp? will our young receivers learn how to run the right routes or figure out what Manning is expecting simply by osmosis?

if Manning automatically guarantees us a SB trip this year, why did Indy give him up? and why didn't he take Indy to the SB every year?

for all your bitching about Tebow fans being delusional, you are every bit as delusional if you think signing Manning and a handful of draft picks makes us a SB contender. unless Manning really does have a bag of magic beans. which he doesn't.

Spider
03-25-2012, 01:18 PM
it's absurd because Orton couldn't back 8 out of the box, which is why they couldn't run. Teams play 5 OUT of the box against manning.
Give it a ****ing rest.
this ........ WIJG is AN IDIOT

Spider
03-25-2012, 01:20 PM
His point was that we don't have 5-6 years for our offense to evolve. The reality is that we don't need that long. Manning took over a terrible team and had them at 13-3 his second year.

Tebow love ... that is all it is ...... these guys are talking out of their asses

Mediator12
03-25-2012, 01:29 PM
nobody destroyed this take.

the Broncos were 4-12 in 2010. they started 1-4 last year running an offense closer to Manning's style. even after the changes for Tebow, we only went 8-8. as you so often reminded us, that 8-8 could have easily been 4-12 or 5-11 if not for some remarkable luck (MIA, SD, NYJ, CHI). you don't put Manning into the same system with essentially the same players and automatically become a SB contender.

you need to get complementary players and you need to get them fast. you can't draft them and wait 2 or 3 years for them to mature into starters.

anyone who thinks otherwise is really suffering from wishful thinking.

to win with Manning, this FO needs to get moving and start getting the best possible players to fill our many holes as is possible. they need to do this now and they need to use our draft picks in 2012 and 2013 to facilitiate whatever trades we might need to pull off. we are not rebuilding through the draft anymore, we are reloading with FAs and veterans.

feel free to attempt to dispute these self-obvious facts.

Actually YOU destroyed it with your own logic. The team took a conventional balanced offense and switched MID-Season to a college run heavy protection offense with limited pass-option reads. They simplified the offense and prayed the defense could keep them in games. When they did, the new offense won games, while Implemented in the middle of the season with players based on a whole different model.

You are going backwards with your analogy and implying that players drafted for the balanced sytem actually won more games when they went to an entirely new system they were introduced to in a short term! The team now gets a HOF QB whose best talent is putting the team into the best play at the LOS and runs the simplest offense in the NFL and you are trying to tell me it will take years of development to succeed?

Based on what? They get to train all offseason, install everything, get minicamps, and have a QB who is already throwing to the WR's more than TEBOW had in the offseason. Really, explain to me how we are supposed to believe they have no shot going forward to pick this offense up and flourish. It's not a complicated system.

jerseyguy4
03-25-2012, 02:53 PM
you people with your magic beans theory... it's just nonsense.

signing Manning doesn't do a damned thing to address the multiple problems on defense.
Wrong. From 06-10, the Colts were in top 5 teams with the highest # of 1st downs (with a couple #1's). Denver expects this from Manning and they certainly didn't have it before. More 1st downs is more rest time for defense. More rest goes a long way to make players look (and play) better.

signing Manning requires us to run out of a 3-receiver set.Based on the TE pick ups, I expect to see just as much (or more) of a 2 TE set
is Manning going to have the timing worked out with these guys in just 1 camp? will our young receivers learn how to run the right routes or figure out what Manning is expecting simply by osmosis?
Look what Manning did for Austin Collie and Anthony Gonzalez in their rookie years. I am sure everyone understands how important this is, and I half expect they are already throwing together.
for all your b****ing about Tebow fans being delusional, you are every bit as delusional if you think signing Manning and a handful of draft picks makes us a SB contender. unless Manning really does have a bag of magic beans. which he doesn't.
Sources have reported Manning does, in fact, have a bag of magic beans.

Agamemnon
03-25-2012, 03:05 PM
you people with your magic beans theory... it's just nonsense.

signing Manning doesn't do a damned thing to address the multiple problems on defense.

signing Manning requires us to run out of a 3-receiver set. who are these 3 receivers? DT? Decker? and who? DT and Decker are very young and inexperienced. are you going to draft another receiver? is he going to be productive as a rookie? is Manning going to have the timing worked out with these guys in just 1 camp? will our young receivers learn how to run the right routes or figure out what Manning is expecting simply by osmosis?

if Manning automatically guarantees us a SB trip this year, why did Indy give him up? and why didn't he take Indy to the SB every year?

for all your b****ing about Tebow fans being delusional, you are every bit as delusional if you think signing Manning and a handful of draft picks makes us a SB contender. unless Manning really does have a bag of magic beans. which he doesn't.

You're wasting your breath. You can't reason with delusion.

extralife
03-25-2012, 03:28 PM
you heard it here first guys. because Peyton Manning doesn't play defense he wasn't worth signing. nevermind that he is the best free agent in the history of the NFL, he simply isn't good enough for us.

I mean lets get real here: the people screaming about the Manning signing are Tebow nuthuggers. go to the Jets forums. please.

Cito Pelon
03-25-2012, 03:31 PM
whelp, I'm convinced

Yeah, yeah, whatever to you and Tony and Bombay and whomever. I'll get behind Plan A one of these days I guess. Here's my new favorite song :D:

Sad Songs (Say So Much)

Music: Elton John
Lyrics: Bernie Taupin

Guess there are times when we all need to share a little pain
And ironing out the rough spots
Is the hardest part when memories remain
And it's times like these when we all need to hear the radio
`Cause from the lips of some old singer
We can share the troubles we already know
Turn them on, turn them on
Turn on those sad songs
When all hope is gone
Why don't you tune in and turn them on
They reach into your room
Just feel their gentle touch
When all hope is gone
Sad songs say so much


Cry for me, Manning-boners.

Gort
03-25-2012, 03:31 PM
you heard it here first guys. because Peyton Manning doesn't play defense he wasn't worth signing. nevermind that he is the best free agent in the history of the NFL, he simply isn't good enough for us.

I mean lets get real here: the people screaming about the Manning signing are Tebow nuthuggers. go to the Jets forums. please.

and the people who think Manning alone will bring us a Lombardi every year for the next 5 years because he's just so awesome and that's all we needed to do are the same ones who hated Tebow irrationally and had to leave the site during the 7-game winning streak because it it enraged them to see Tebow and the Broncos have any sort of success on the field.

Gort
03-25-2012, 03:34 PM
Actually YOU destroyed it with your own logic. The team took a conventional balanced offense and switched MID-Season to a college run heavy protection offense with limited pass-option reads. They simplified the offense and prayed the defense could keep them in games. When they did, the new offense won games, while Implemented in the middle of the season with players based on a whole different model.

You are going backwards with your analogy and implying that players drafted for the balanced sytem actually won more games when they went to an entirely new system they were introduced to in a short term! The team now gets a HOF QB whose best talent is putting the team into the best play at the LOS and runs the simplest offense in the NFL and you are trying to tell me it will take years of development to succeed?

Based on what? They get to train all offseason, install everything, get minicamps, and have a QB who is already throwing to the WR's more than TEBOW had in the offseason. Really, explain to me how we are supposed to believe they have no shot going forward to pick this offense up and flourish. It's not a complicated system.

yours is the classic response i'd expect on the OM. setup a strawman and refute it. ignore the actual post.

let's try again. forget Tebow for a moment.

was the 2010 team a playoff caliber team?
was the 2011 team a playoff caliber team with Orton?

if you answered "yes" to either of those questions, this conversation is over and ends with me facepalming at you.

is the 2012 team essentially the same team that Orton played with, only with Manning in his place?

if you answered "no" to this question, this conversation is over and ends with me facepalming at you.

if you get to this point, then please explain to me how Manning and Manning alone suddenly elevates a really bad team (4-12 and then 1-4) all the way to SB contender status. if your answer is "everybody will play better, because you know, it's Peyton Manning and he's AWESOME and he releases the ball in 200 microseconds", then again, this conversation is over and you're a dumbass.

if you think you can explain how Manning by himself makes an OL that struggled with pass blocking last year (both with and without Tebow) and with young, inexperienced receivers (of which one has left for Sandy Eggo) that have never worked with Manning before, then please do.

also, how do we fill the holes on the defense? through the draft? we have deficiencies at DT (2 of them) and LB (1 or 2 of them depending how you feel about DJ Williams) and CB.

somehow, this FO needs to fill 3 or 4 holes this year with guys who we can rely on for the next 2-3 years. that's assuming we won't be competing for a SB in 2012. then next year, they have to do the same... fill 3 or 4 more holes so that come 2013, we are really a SB contender.

can you show me any offseason where we drafted 3 or 4 guys who became solid, established starters in their 1st or 2nd seasons in the league?

extralife
03-25-2012, 03:35 PM
and the people who think Manning alone will bring us a Lombardi every year for the next 5 years because he's just so awesome and that's all we needed to do are the same ones who hated Tebow irrationally and had to leave the site during the 7-game winning streak because it it enraged them to see Tebow and the Broncos have any sort of success on the field.

well I suppose if those were actual people on the forum instead of strawmen in your head you might have a point. though even then you probably wouldn't, because Tim Tebow doesn't play for the Broncos anymore. He plays for the Jets. Peyton Manning plays for us. I hear he's pretty good. You should look him up.

Gort
03-25-2012, 03:40 PM
well I suppose if those were actual people on the forum instead of strawmen in your head you might have a point. though even then you probably wouldn't, because Tim Tebow doesn't play for the Broncos anymore. He plays for the Jets. Peyton Manning plays for us. I hear he's pretty good. You should look him up.

you're the one who is acting as if all problems are solved. i know it makes you happy to have Manning and to be rid of Tebow. but it's only the first step if this is truly to become a SB contending team. can Manning win Lombardis with a dearth of talent around him? need i remind you that the Broncos record in recent years has been.

2011: 8-8
2010: 4-12
2009: 8-8
2008: 8-8
2007: 7-9
2006: 9-7

do those records indicate to you that we've been stockpiling talent and building a SB contending franchise? because they don't to me.

Bacchus
03-25-2012, 03:52 PM
Read the whole thing here: http://www.itsalloverfatman.com/broncos/entry/understanding-the-manning-offense-part-1

That is a great article. Anyone who did not read it should. I wish the Post would actually put something of this quality up.

Cito Pelon
03-25-2012, 04:04 PM
Actually YOU destroyed it with your own logic. The team took a conventional balanced offense and switched MID-Season to a college run heavy protection offense with limited pass-option reads. They simplified the offense and prayed the defense could keep them in games. When they did, the new offense won games, while Implemented in the middle of the season with players based on a whole different model.

You are going backwards with your analogy and implying that players drafted for the balanced sytem actually won more games when they went to an entirely new system they were introduced to in a short term! The team now gets a HOF QB whose best talent is putting the team into the best play at the LOS and runs the simplest offense in the NFL and you are trying to tell me it will take years of development to succeed?

Based on what? They get to train all offseason, install everything, get minicamps, and have a QB who is already throwing to the WR's more than TEBOW had in the offseason. Really, explain to me how we are supposed to believe they have no shot going forward to pick this offense up and flourish. It's not a complicated system.

Obviously, I'm not getting how this is the simplest offense in the NFL. How is it so simple?

Because there are no complicated playcalls into the huddle?
Because there is only one play called in, letting the huddle break fast, then Manning uses the remaining time on the play clock to adjust as he sees fit?
Because there are three plays called into the huddle, then Manning chooses one, then they break the huddle fast, then Manning uses the remaining time on the play clock to adjust as he sees fit?

I have to admit it worked in Indy to the tune of a lot of Div Titles and playoff appearances, didn't work all that great in the playoffs, they had a lot of low-scoring O performances.

You said Indy had the attitude "we'll outplay you, not outscheme you." Ok, that's fine, we'll see how it pans out. Maybe I'm being overly skeptical, but this isn't Indy. I'm a Teboner, so keep that in mind.

Bacchus
03-25-2012, 04:13 PM
Chargers own Manning.


Yours Truly,

Elway stated that the Chargers beat the Colts all the time because if you wanna beat SD you need to run the ball and the COlts could not do that. He vowed Denver will be a good running team. So I think the Broncos will have a very good game plan for the Chuggars.

Bacchus
03-25-2012, 04:17 PM
you heard it here first guys. because Peyton Manning doesn't play defense he wasn't worth signing. nevermind that he is the best free agent in the history of the NFL, he simply isn't good enough for us.

I mean lets get real here: the people screaming about the Manning signing are Tebow nuthuggers. go to the Jets forums. please.

2nd best FA, I think almost everyone would agree Reggie White was the greatest, especially because he was in his prime and brought a SB Championship to GB.

Bacchus
03-25-2012, 04:18 PM
you're the one who is acting as if all problems are solved. i know it makes you happy to have Manning and to be rid of Tebow. but it's only the first step if this is truly to become a SB contending team. can Manning win Lombardis with a dearth of talent around him? need i remind you that the Broncos record in recent years has been.

2011: 8-8
2010: 4-12
2009: 8-8
2008: 8-8
2007: 7-9
2006: 9-7

do those records indicate to you that we've been stockpiling talent and building a SB contending franchise? because they don't to me.

The Denver team right now has much MUCH more talent than the Colts' team of 2010 that went 10-6. There is no reason to think even with the tough schedukle they have this year Denver can't go 10-6 themselves.

Gort
03-25-2012, 04:18 PM
2nd best FA, I think almost everyone would agree Reggie White was the greatest, especially because he was in his prime and brought a SB Championship to GB.

ruh roh!

you didn't say Manning was the greatest FA signing of all time.

you will regret saying anything once the Mannboners arrive to make you see the error of your ways.

Punisher
03-25-2012, 04:53 PM
Whatever happens, Tebow is gone, so it will be about football, not who may get their feelings hurt, whether the OC can invent a high school offense on the fly, etc.


What a relief.

this

extralife
03-25-2012, 05:36 PM
2nd best FA, I think almost everyone would agree Reggie White was the greatest, especially because he was in his prime and brought a SB Championship to GB.

Debatable, but QB is so much more important than DE that I'll go with Peyton. If you're going to add in what he did after signing with GB--which doesn't seem very fair to me, given that we can't see Manning's future--most people forget that White only had double digit sacks once with GB.

TonyR
03-25-2012, 06:26 PM
signing Manning doesn't do a damned thing to address the multiple problems on defense.

Not directly. But the Manning offense will score more and get more first downs. And if you understand football even a little bit you'll understand how that might help the defense.

Broncolt
03-25-2012, 06:49 PM
There's no doubt Manning will put his stamp on the offense but I'll bet anything you won't see the Broncos passing the ball nearly as much as the Colts offense did. Elway knows all to well how important a solid running game is and I think he's convinced Manning that is going to be his best friend as he enters the home run stretch of his career.

This. Broncos offense wont be as pass-heavy as Colts offense was... The reason the Colts pass game was sooo huge in Indy is because of the LACK of running game/success...and hopefully the solid run game in denver will make the offense even tougher to beat.

Broncolt
03-25-2012, 06:54 PM
Running backs came and went. Wayne and
We sit here discussing, but I almost guarantee that process has already begun. Manning was previously working out with old friends at Duke. But I would bet that has already changed, that he's reached out to the Broncos WR group, and that they are already throwing passes together.

Ill put my life savings on it that this is exactly whats happening. Peyton is definitely NOT sitting around waiting, he is definitely going straight to work studying game tapes of the receivers, even getting workouts/sessions done with them. Peyton's gameplay style heavily relies on work ethic, timing, and chemistry/cohesiveness with the team.

Cito Pelon
03-25-2012, 06:59 PM
Not directly. But the Manning offense will score more and get more first downs. And if you understand football even a little bit you'll understand how that might help the defense.

Well, we'll see if Manning from TWO years ago (heh-heh) is the same Manning come opening day, with the Denver team. Of course, you know the 2010 Colts went one and done in the playoffs, scoring 16 points at home against the Jets, and Manning couldn't come from behind to win in the 4th quarter at home. Manning did put up 6 points in the 4th quarter, though, and did have the lead, so that's something to hang his hat on.

Manning was 6-for-10 for 75 yds, 0 TD's in that 4th quarter, in his last playoff game, at home.

extralife
03-25-2012, 07:06 PM
how damning. he must not be good enough to play QB for us.

in Tim Tebow's last playoff game he was 9-26 and we scored 10 points against the worst defense in the NFL.

Cito Pelon
03-25-2012, 07:27 PM
how damning. he must not be good enough to play QB for us.

in Tim Tebow's last playoff game he was 9-26 and we scored 10 points against the worst defense in the NFL.

The Pats defense that won the AFC Title, and held Baltimore to 20 points in the AFCCG and the Giants to 21 in the Super Bowl.

Hey, if you want to join on the Manning bandwagon that's fine with me. I'm not on board yet, not until he actually does something for the Broncos to the tune of an AFC Title.

DENVERDUI55
03-25-2012, 07:34 PM
Yeah, Al went to TN and knew Manning's theatrics were mostly nonsense.
He would shift the D at the last minute so there would be no time for PM to change the play again.

We really need another Al.

and Manning would still bend Denver over for 40 plus pts.

DENVERDUI55
03-25-2012, 07:42 PM
yours is the classic response i'd expect on the OM. setup a strawman and refute it. ignore the actual post.

let's try again. forget Tebow for a moment.

was the 2010 team a playoff caliber team?
was the 2011 team a playoff caliber team with Orton?

if you answered "yes" to either of those questions, this conversation is over and ends with me facepalming at you.

is the 2012 team essentially the same team that Orton played with, only with Manning in his place?

if you answered "no" to this question, this conversation is over and ends with me facepalming at you.

if you get to this point, then please explain to me how Manning and Manning alone suddenly elevates a really bad team (4-12 and then 1-4) all the way to SB contender status. if your answer is "everybody will play better, because you know, it's Peyton Manning and he's AWESOME and he releases the ball in 200 microseconds", then again, this conversation is over and you're a dumbass.

if you think you can explain how Manning by himself makes an OL that struggled with pass blocking last year (both with and without Tebow) and with young, inexperienced receivers (of which one has left for Sandy Eggo) that have never worked with Manning before, then please do.

also, how do we fill the holes on the defense? through the draft? we have deficiencies at DT (2 of them) and LB (1 or 2 of them depending how you feel about DJ Williams) and CB.

somehow, this FO needs to fill 3 or 4 holes this year with guys who we can rely on for the next 2-3 years. that's assuming we won't be competing for a SB in 2012. then next year, they have to do the same... fill 3 or 4 more holes so that come 2013, we are really a SB contender.

can you show me any offseason where we drafted 3 or 4 guys who became solid, established starters in their 1st or 2nd seasons in the league?

Man these Teboners are dense. You are about to get schooled by Med. There isn't one person on the board that is at his level of understanding the game.

Broncolt
03-25-2012, 08:14 PM
yours is the classic response i'd expect on the OM. setup a strawman and refute it. ignore the actual post.

let's try again. forget Tebow for a moment.

was the 2010 team a playoff caliber team?
was the 2011 team a playoff caliber team with Orton?

if you answered "yes" to either of those questions, this conversation is over and ends with me facepalming at you.

is the 2012 team essentially the same team that Orton played with, only with Manning in his place?

if you answered "no" to this question, this conversation is over and ends with me facepalming at you.

if you get to this point, then please explain to me how Manning and Manning alone suddenly elevates a really bad team (4-12 and then 1-4) all the way to SB contender status. if your answer is "everybody will play better, because you know, it's Peyton Manning and he's AWESOME and he releases the ball in 200 microseconds", then again, this conversation is over and you're a dumbass.

if you think you can explain how Manning by himself makes an OL that struggled with pass blocking last year (both with and without Tebow) and with young, inexperienced receivers (of which one has left for Sandy Eggo) that have never worked with Manning before, then please do.

also, how do we fill the holes on the defense? through the draft? we have deficiencies at DT (2 of them) and LB (1 or 2 of them depending how you feel about DJ Williams) and CB.

somehow, this FO needs to fill 3 or 4 holes this year with guys who we can rely on for the next 2-3 years. that's assuming we won't be competing for a SB in 2012. then next year, they have to do the same... fill 3 or 4 more holes so that come 2013, we are really a SB contender.

can you show me any offseason where we drafted 3 or 4 guys who became solid, established starters in their 1st or 2nd seasons in the league?

put peyton in the 2011 colts season and colts would have won atleast 10 close games they had. (alot of games were very close losses in the 4th). your argument is expected, but boy i cannot wait till you eat your crow next season. You have no idea what peytons capable of doing. Im not saying superbowl for the next 5 years, but expect to see a HUGE improvement in both DT and decker, the rest of the offense, and YES (refuting wat u said before) the defense too. If the offense puts more points up, the other team simply has to play catch up, with their gameplan predictable, it makes it easier on the defense esp with passrushing. This is the way its been in Indy, with a ****tier defense than the one broncos have right now. Also, running game is for sure going to be loads better, as long as the OL is solid, because defenses will have to respect the passing game.

In indy, the colts offense was SO predictable, especially the last couple of seasons with NO running game to help. teams knew we were going to throw on practically every down, and played the pass ALL the time and peyton still was successful (in regular season atleast)...opens up running game. Your gonna see a diff broncos team next year..you watch

Broncolt
03-25-2012, 08:33 PM
Well, we'll see if Manning from TWO years ago (heh-heh) is the same Manning come opening day, with the Denver team. Of course, you know the 2010 Colts went one and done in the playoffs, scoring 16 points at home against the Jets, and Manning couldn't come from behind to win in the 4th quarter at home. Manning did put up 6 points in the 4th quarter, though, and did have the lead, so that's something to hang his hat on.

Manning was 6-for-10 for 75 yds, 0 TD's in that 4th quarter, in his last playoff game, at home.

That game was single-handedly lost by Jim Caldwell.

Edit: Terrible game for Peyton to end his career as a Colt, atleast for colt fans lol

Broncolt
03-25-2012, 08:35 PM
The Pats defense that won the AFC Title, and held Baltimore to 20 points in the AFCCG and the Giants to 21 in the Super Bowl.

Hey, if you want to join on the Manning bandwagon that's fine with me. I'm not on board yet, not until he actually does something for the Broncos to the tune of an AFC Title.

LOL, that patriots defense didnt do crap to win against bmore, bmore lost that game themselves...pats defense sucked this year, tebow did awful. both times...no need to jump on the manning bandwagon just yet, well patiently wait for u when the season comes

Cito Pelon
03-25-2012, 08:44 PM
Man these Teboners are dense. You are about to get schooled by Med. There isn't one person on the board that is at his level of understanding the game.

Riiiight. Med has hits and misses just like all the rest of us.

DENVERDUI55
03-25-2012, 08:45 PM
Riiiight. Med has hits and misses just like all the rest of us.

I'm talking X's and O's.

Cito Pelon
03-25-2012, 08:51 PM
put peyton in the 2011 colts season and colts would have won atleast 10 close games they had. (alot of games were very close losses in the 4th). your argument is expected, but boy i cannot wait till you eat your crow next season. You have no idea what peytons capable of doing. Im not saying superbowl for the next 5 years, but expect to see a HUGE improvement in both DT and decker, the rest of the offense, and YES (refuting wat u said before) the defense too. If the offense puts more points up, the other team simply has to play catch up, with their gameplan predictable, it makes it easier on the defense esp with passrushing. This is the way its been in Indy, with a ****tier defense than the one broncos have right now. Also, running game is for sure going to be loads better, as long as the OL is solid, because defenses will have to respect the passing game.

In indy, the colts offense was SO predictable, especially the last couple of seasons with NO running game to help. teams knew we were going to throw on practically every down, and played the pass ALL the time and peyton still was successful (in regular season atleast)...opens up running game. Your gonna see a diff broncos team next year..you watch

Yeah, well, we'll see what happens. I can see the argument that Manning will take the O to another level. We'll see if it actually happens. And judging by Manning's history, will it translate into playoff wins is the big question.

jerseyguy4
03-25-2012, 08:57 PM
Ill put my life savings on it that this is exactly whats happening. Peyton is definitely NOT sitting around waiting, he is definitely going straight to work studying game tapes of the receivers, even getting workouts/sessions done with them. Peyton's gameplay style heavily relies on work ethic, timing, and chemistry/cohesiveness with the team.
Broncolt:
I know you're a pre-Denver Manning fan, as am I. From previous years, we know what's going on. What we both said is true and we know it.

Everyone:
I hate to be overly optimistic. But I see a lot of "if Peyton is as good as he was...", and "if Manning can put up the numbers he did in ..."
Get this...I've watched Manning for 14 years...he's gotten better EVERY year. I know there's a plateau somewhere. And I know he didn't have neck surgery every one of those 14 years.

But mark my words: No one works harder. No one practices or prepares more. He's coming back, and it wouldn't suprise me to see have his best season ever. Sound far fetched? It's not...he's done it every other year of his career.

People are worried he might not live up to 2010 or 2009. But I'd put my money on the side that says he'll do even better.
When Manning was recovering, there was analyst talk of his retirement. I told people that believed that then..."Don't bet against Peyton Manning"

I'm fired up for the season! Long time to wait!!!!

Gort
03-25-2012, 09:02 PM
put peyton in the 2011 colts season and colts would have won atleast 10 close games they had. (alot of games were very close losses in the 4th). your argument is expected, but boy i cannot wait till you eat your crow next season. You have no idea what peytons capable of doing. Im not saying superbowl for the next 5 years, but expect to see a HUGE improvement in both DT and decker, the rest of the offense, and YES (refuting wat u said before) the defense too. If the offense puts more points up, the other team simply has to play catch up, with their gameplan predictable, it makes it easier on the defense esp with passrushing. This is the way its been in Indy, with a ****tier defense than the one broncos have right now. Also, running game is for sure going to be loads better, as long as the OL is solid, because defenses will have to respect the passing game.

In indy, the colts offense was SO predictable, especially the last couple of seasons with NO running game to help. teams knew we were going to throw on practically every down, and played the pass ALL the time and peyton still was successful (in regular season atleast)...opens up running game. Your gonna see a diff broncos team next year..you watch

i'm sorry, but i don't know what to call this other than the "magic bean" theory.

unlike you, i watched every Broncos game last year. i saw for myself what talent we have and where we are lacking.

if Manning is so good that he instantly makes every other player on the roster so much better that his team becomes a legit SB contender, then why did Indy give him up? why didn't every team in the league come knocking for his services? why doesn't have have 10 or 11 Lombardis already?

seriously, you're not doing yourself any favors with this sort of hyperbole.

whatever benefits a healthy Manning may bring to this team on both O and D are offset by some very real needs we have for quality starting NFL players at some positions, and a real problem with depth on the roster if/when the inevitable injuries occur to key starters.

and on top of that, Manning still needs to work with his offense to get the system implemented and well-rehearsed. i don't see that happening in just 1 training camp.

so to win now, we need to start filling these holes and we can't wait to do it over 2 or 3 drafts. the timetable has been pushed up. the draft can no longer be the primary way to acquire the necessary pieces because it takes too long to get those 5 or 6 quality starters that we need that way.

that's what i'm saying. go ahead and put a lifesize picture of Manning on the ceiling above your bed. i don't care. i'm not even telling you that your crush on him is wrong. i'm simply saying that he's not enough to get us back to the SB. same thing if we were talking about Brees or Brady or Rodgers all by themselves as well.

maybe in SF, a healthy Manning is all that would be needed to get to the SB with the roster they have, but they built that roster over several years. we haven't been doing that. go back to the beginning of the McD regime and see how we essentially pressed the reset button on what Shanny was doing. now look at last year and you'll see that alot of what McD did in 2 years has been purged from the roster as well. we are not a team that has been rebuilding and stockpiling talent for several consecutive years. so to give Manning what he needs, we will have to pursue free agents and veterans via trade.

Broncolt
03-25-2012, 09:09 PM
Yeah, well, we'll see what happens. I can see the argument that Manning will take the O to another level. We'll see if it actually happens. And judging by Manning's history, will it translate into playoff wins is the big question.

Thats a very valid consideration and I agree, but I'd just replace your last statement by "judging by THE COLTS* history" ;)

Broncolt
03-25-2012, 09:14 PM
Broncolt:
I know you're a pre-Denver Manning fan, as am I. From previous years, we know what's going on. What we both said is true and we know it.

Everyone:
I hate to be overly optimistic. But I see a lot of "if Peyton is as good as he was...", and "if Manning can put up the numbers he did in ..."
Get this...I've watched Manning for 14 years...he's gotten better EVERY year. I know there's a plateau somewhere. And I know he didn't have neck surgery every one of those 14 years.

But mark my words: No one works harder. No one practices or prepares more. He's coming back, and it wouldn't suprise me to see have his best season ever. Sound far fetched? It's not...he's done it every other year of his career.

People are worried he might not live up to 2010 or 2009. But I'd put my money on the side that says he'll do even better.
When Manning was recovering, there was analyst talk of his retirement. I told people that believed that then..."Don't bet against Peyton Manning"


I cant agree anymore with this post!! you and I probably know Manning best/better than denver fans... I know the stats really dont support that Peyton has gotten better ever year, but if any of you watched every colt game like me and jerseygurl (represent to NJ!) youd easily say that Manning never really "plateau"ed as a QB. He gets smarter and better all the time. Add to the fact that as the years went on, in my eyes the colts started to rely heavier and heavier on Manning. He wasnt MVP in 08 and 09 for no reason! He literally had the team on his back. Everyone saw the colts decline as a team too, when in 2010 they went 10-6 vs their normal 12+ win seasons...

jerseyguy4
03-25-2012, 09:18 PM
then why did Indy give him up? why didn't every team in the league come knocking for his services? why doesn't have have 10 or 11 Lombardis already?
Reality is, no one player gives you a Superbowl victory. Having Manning guarantees you nothing, and I am sure he will say something virtually the same every week (he always has).. What you will get is a solid run offense, with a very realistic shot at winning the division.

The goal is to make the playoffs. The 2nd goal is to be hot going into the playoffs. If people just assume that picking up Peyton means you better start clearing space on the shelf for the Lombardis, there's a fair chance you will be disappointment. Every year is a struggle and only 1 team can win.

But if you're outlook is just that you want to Broncos play well, make the playoffs, and have a SHOT at the Lombardi, then strap the F in. Looks to be a good year.

Christ, enjoy it already. If you don't enjoy this, I can't imagine what you will ever enjoy as a fan.

Broncolt
03-25-2012, 09:22 PM
if Manning is so good that he instantly makes every other player on the roster so much better that his team becomes a legit SB contender, then why did Indy give him up? why didn't every team in the league come knocking for his services? why doesn't have have 10 or 11 Lombardis already?

whatever benefits a healthy Manning may bring to this team on both O and D are offset by some very real needs we have for quality starting NFL players at some positions, and a real problem with depth on the roster if/when the inevitable injuries occur to key starters.

and on top of that, Manning still needs to work with his offense to get the system implemented and well-rehearsed. i don't see that happening in just 1 training camp.

so to win now, we need to start filling these holes and we can't wait to do it over 2 or 3 drafts. the timetable has been pushed up. the draft can no longer be the primary way to acquire the necessary pieces because it takes too long to get those 5 or 6 quality starters that we need that way.

that's what i'm saying. go ahead and put a lifesize picture of Manning on the ceiling above your bed. i don't care. i'm not even telling you that your crush on him is wrong. i'm simply saying that he's not enough to get us back to the SB. same thing if we were talking about Brees or Brady or Rodgers all by themselves as well.

maybe in SF, a healthy Manning is all that would be needed to get to the SB with the roster they have, but they built that roster over several years. we haven't been doing that. go back to the beginning of the McD regime and see how we essentially pressed the reset button on what Shanny was doing. now look at last year and you'll see that alot of what McD did in 2 years has been purged from the roster as well. we are not a team that has been rebuilding and stockpiling talent for several consecutive years. so to give Manning what he needs, we will have to pursue free agents and veterans via trade.

Indy gave him up simply because Irsay, colts owner, felt that this offseason was the perfect opportunity to scrap everything and rebuild. The front office and coaching staff are compltely different faces with different philosophies and ideas. The colts will be a different team next year. To answer your question in easy form: Colts are looking to rebuild, Peyton is looking for another ring, or two. It was best of both parties' interests to part ways.

SB rings are a team effort. Like I said before, I never said Peyton was going to win 5 superbowls, but youd have to be an idiot to think that Peyton will not higher the chances of winning a lombardi.

Manning's best friends for the next couple of months will be DT, decker, dresseen, and Tamme startingggg....now (or a week ago...), the offense will hopefully mesh together.

I understand your argument more, and you obviously know the broncos better than me. There are holes that do need to be filled yes, and you believe they need to be done through free agency. That point, I can agree with. As the window isnt very large.

Gort
03-25-2012, 09:24 PM
Reality is, no one player gives you a Superbowl victory. Having Manning guarantees you nothing, and I am sure he will say something virtually the same every week (he always has).. What you will get is a solid run offense, with a very realistic shot at winning the division.

The goal is to make the playoffs. The 2nd goal is to be hot going into the playoffs. If people just assume that picking up Peyton means you better start clearing space on the shelf for the Lombardis, there's a fair chance you will be disappointment. Every year is a struggle and only 1 team can win.

But if you're outlook is just that you want to Broncos play well, make the playoffs, and have a SHOT at the Lombardi, then strap the F in. Looks to be a good year.

Christ, enjoy it already. If you don't enjoy this, I can't imagine what you will ever enjoy as a fan.

thank you. that's what i'm saying. we need MORE pieces for the jigsaw puzzle before the whole thing comes together. if Manning had 10 more years, then no problem... we can take our time getting them on the cheap as free agents or via the draft. but he doesn't have 10 more years, so our FO needs to be more urgent and needs to be really good to get those needs met sooner rather than later.

i honestly don't care if somebody thinks Manning makes us 20% better or 30% better. it's the silly idea that Manning all by himself makes us 100% better and automatic SB contenders. i've seen some people claim that we are now the odds-on favorite to win the SB. that's just not so.

jerseyguy4
03-25-2012, 09:25 PM
Add to the fact that as the years went on, in my eyes the colts started to rely heavier and heavier on Manning. He wasnt MVP in 08 and 09 for no reason! He literally had the team on his back...
100% true. It actually was the point where 3rd and short was almost a guaranteed pass play. It was sad! Yet the Colts were still 10+ wins

And this year I see a running game behind him that I haven't hoped for much since the Colts picked up Tony Ugoh (which was a bust). There's a damn good reason to be excited. Why are so few Broncos fans afraid to drink the punch?

Gort
03-25-2012, 09:35 PM
100% true. It actually was the point where 3rd and short was almost a guaranteed pass play. It was sad! Yet the Colts were still 10+ wins

And this year I see a running game behind him that I haven't hoped for much since the Colts picked up Tony Ugoh (which was a bust). There's a damn good reason to be excited. Why are so few Broncos fans afraid to drink the punch?

Broncos records of late:

2011: 8-8
2010: 4-12
2009: 8-8
2008: 8-8
2007: 7-9
2006: 9-7

not alot to be optimistic about in recent years.

also, as new Broncos fans, look up how many of these years featured 0-3 slides to end the regular season.

Broncolt
03-25-2012, 09:35 PM
100% true. It actually was the point where 3rd and short was almost a guaranteed pass play. It was sad! Yet the Colts were still 10+ wins

And this year I see a running game behind him that I haven't hoped for much since the Colts picked up Tony Ugoh (which was a bust). There's a damn good reason to be excited. Why are so few Broncos fans afraid to drink the punch?

Like the rest of the league and other team fans, everyone has their doubts of Peyton for obvious reasons, be it health, age, choking, overrated etc. There are so many factors that would point to and support Peyton's failure. Were not just overly optimistic...we just know Peyton better than an average NFL fan, especially if weve been watching him his entire career in Indy.

Bacchus
03-25-2012, 09:49 PM
People talk about Peyton's health, but in reality his health has been very good. He is in much better shape than what Elways was at age 36. His legs, and arm are still in very good condition. He has 3 years to get another ring. I am very sure that Denver can do this. 3 years for one ring, I think it will happen.

DBroncos4life
03-25-2012, 09:51 PM
thank you. that's what i'm saying. we need MORE pieces for the jigsaw puzzle before the whole thing comes together. if Manning had 10 more years, then no problem... we can take our time getting them on the cheap as free agents or via the draft. but he doesn't have 10 more years, so our FO needs to be more urgent and needs to be really good to get those needs met sooner rather than later.

i honestly don't care if somebody thinks Manning makes us 20% better or 30% better. it's the silly idea that Manning all by himself makes us 100% better and automatic SB contenders. i've seen some people claim that we are now the odds-on favorite to win the SB. that's just not so.

Vegas doesn't agree with you at all and no one is claiming we are a LOCK to win the SB. They said our odds are better. If you don't think our O or team is improved with Manning over Tebow please tell me so. That way I can just add you to my iggy list.

jerseyguy4
03-25-2012, 09:53 PM
Broncos records of late:

2011: 8-8
2010: 4-12
2009: 8-8
2008: 8-8
2007: 7-9
2006: 9-7

not alot to be optimistic about in recent years.

also, as new Broncos fans, look up how many of these years featured 0-3 slides to end the regular season.
Ok, I did. I see your point.

But I don't think you should damn the fate of 2012 based on a head honcho core that wasn't yet in place.
Elway is only on year 2
Fox - year 2
Del Rio - year 1. (I don't know what the chatter was, but I think Del Rio was a damn good grab)
Manning - year 1
That's a lot of new chiefs, proven chiefs. And last year, even with a wild card win, the 2011 Broncos were not Elway and Fox's vision.

I'd love to be a fly on the wall at the coach meetings. I have a feeling these guys are as fired up as I am.

Come on bro, relax and have some fun. Throw back your EZ chair and have a cocktail.

Bronco Boy
03-25-2012, 10:38 PM
These new posters aren't nearly jaded enough. Work on that please.

Agamemnon
03-25-2012, 10:41 PM
100% true. It actually was the point where 3rd and short was almost a guaranteed pass play. It was sad! Yet the Colts were still 10+ wins

And this year I see a running game behind him that I haven't hoped for much since the Colts picked up Tony Ugoh (which was a bust). There's a damn good reason to be excited. Why are so few Broncos fans afraid to drink the punch?

Tebow was the main reason the run game was so prolific last year. Without him, it is categorically mediocre.

Agamemnon
03-25-2012, 10:43 PM
Ok, I did. I see your point.

But I don't think you should damn the fate of 2012 based on a head honcho core that wasn't yet in place.
Elway is only on year 2
Fox - year 2
Del Rio - year 1. (I don't know what the chatter was, but I think Del Rio was a damn good grab)
Manning - year 1
That's a lot of new chiefs, proven chiefs. And last year, even with a wild card win, the 2011 Broncos were not Elway and Fox's vision.

I'd love to be a fly on the wall at the coach meetings. I have a feeling these guys are as fired up as I am.

Come on bro, relax and have some fun. Throw back your EZ chair and have a cocktail.

Nothing new. We change QB's and coaches all the time, and nothing ever really changes. You'll learn.

Cito Pelon
03-25-2012, 11:00 PM
Vegas doesn't agree with you at all and no one is claiming we are a LOCK to win the SB. They said our odds are better. If you don't think our O or team is improved with Manning over Tebow please tell me so. That way I can just add you to my iggy list.

Hey, it always comes back to this - if you're not gonna win the SB with a retread from outside, why not go all in developing the homegrown guy you have already? The situation was not so dire with Tebow like the other teams that brought in retreads. If the homegrown guy doesn't work out, then you draft a guy.

I'm not seeing the glass half-full argument with Manning, I'm seeing a glass half-empty. With Tebow, it was glass half-full.

DBroncos4life
03-25-2012, 11:12 PM
Hey, it always comes back to this - if you're not gonna win the SB with a retread from outside, why not go all in developing the homegrown guy you have already? The situation was not so dire with Tebow like the other teams that brought in retreads. If the homegrown guy doesn't work out, then you draft a guy.

I'm not seeing the glass half-full argument with Manning, I'm seeing a glass half-empty. With Tebow, it was glass half-full.
We have a higher chance of winning the SB in the next three years with Manning then we ever will with Tebow. Manning is flat out better then Tebow. Its not even debatable.

Cito Pelon
03-25-2012, 11:33 PM
We have a higher chance of winning the SB in the next three years with Manning then we ever will with Tebow. Manning is flat out better then Tebow. Its not even debatable.

It's fine with me if you say so. I say it would have been better to develop Tebow instead of going with this "higher chance" guy that is maybe good for a few years. I don't like bringing in a retread. So we'll see what happens.

BroncoBeavis
03-25-2012, 11:37 PM
We have a higher chance of winning the SB in the next three years with Manning then we ever will with Tebow. Manning is flat out better then Tebow. Its not even debatable.

How many times do you think Peyton Manning's seen that sign in your avatar?

See, it is debatable. ;D

Broncolt
03-25-2012, 11:57 PM
Tebow was the main reason the run game was so prolific last year. Without him, it is categorically mediocre.

Tebow is a huge part of the running game success last season, esp for mcgahee breaking 1000. But have you seen Peyton working with a 31st/32nd rated rushing offense? (see mannings last 3 seasons). I truly think a stronger pass game will also have a positive effect on Denvers rushing game. Hope it goes smoothly

Broncolt
03-26-2012, 12:00 AM
How many times do you think Peyton Manning's seen that sign in your avatar?

See, it is debatable. ;D

Oh the left one? A plenty :strong:

DBroncos4life
03-26-2012, 02:35 AM
It's fine with me if you say so. I say it would have been better to develop Tebow instead of going with this "higher chance" guy that is maybe good for a few years. I don't like bringing in a retread. So we'll see what happens.

You seem to think that Tebow is a lock to develop when it is far from it. And please stop calling Manning a retread. He is the biggest NFL FA in god knows how long if ever. He is far from some has been scrub we found off the street.

BroncoBeavis
03-26-2012, 07:08 AM
Oh the left one? A plenty :strong:

Yeah not sure 4 for 11 is all that impressive. Hopefully that was just the Colts' idea of clutch and not Manning's.

TonyR
03-26-2012, 07:27 AM
I say it would have been better to develop Tebow...

That's the thing, though. EFX didn't think he was every going to "develop", and they're far from alone in that opinion.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/25/sports/football/a-gifted-athlete-tim-tebow-has-plenty-of-flaws.html?ref=timtebow

BroncoBeavis
03-26-2012, 07:39 AM
That's the thing, though. EFX didn't think he was every going to "develop", and they're far from alone in that opinion.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/25/sports/football/a-gifted-athlete-tim-tebow-has-plenty-of-flaws.html?ref=timtebow

More analysis from the Tebow throwz lotz of skreenz people.

Tom Brady's QB guy thinks he can develop. Good enough for me.

55CrushEm
03-26-2012, 08:08 AM
Great take. However, there is really a call for immediate success here. Bowlen has to pony up a guaranteed $40M+ at the end of the season.

Exactly. People keep touting only $18M guaranteed......but if he's on our roster 12 months from now....it's really a total of $58M guaranteed.

DBroncos4life
03-26-2012, 08:14 AM
Exactly. People keep touting only $18M guaranteed......but if he's on our roster 12 months from now....it's really a total of $58M guaranteed.

And that means hes performed at a high level for the Broncos. Oh the ****ing humanity!!!

TonyR
03-26-2012, 08:15 AM
Exactly. People keep touting only $18M guaranteed......but if he's on our roster 12 months from now....it's really a total of $58M guaranteed.

I'm not sure I understand why this would concern you. If he plays well this season and stays healthy they'll keep him. Otherwise they'll have a decision to make. We'll cross that bridge when we get to it.

^ DB4life beat me to it...

55CrushEm
03-26-2012, 08:23 AM
I'm not sure I understand why this would concern you. If he plays well this season and stays healthy they'll keep him. Otherwise they'll have a decision to make. We'll cross that bridge when we get to it.

^ DB4life beat me to it...

Yes, I know. My only point was that when people keep cheering that this was soooooooo team friendly, b/c it's ONLY $18M guaranteed.....that is technically true NOW....just a bit misleading.

That is all. IF he plays like the Manning of old, then of course.....we make out not matter what happens.

55CrushEm
03-26-2012, 08:25 AM
Reality is, no one player gives you a Superbowl victory. Having Manning guarantees you nothing, and I am sure he will say something virtually the same every week (he always has).. What you will get is a solid run offense, with a very realistic shot at winning the division.

The goal is to make the playoffs. The 2nd goal is to be hot going into the playoffs. If people just assume that picking up Peyton means you better start clearing space on the shelf for the Lombardis, there's a fair chance you will be disappointment. Every year is a struggle and only 1 team can win.

But if you're outlook is just that you want to Broncos play well, make the playoffs, and have a SHOT at the Lombardi, then strap the F in. Looks to be a good year.

Christ, enjoy it already. If you don't enjoy this, I can't imagine what you will ever enjoy as a fan.

Of course. But the underlying point is that by signing Manning to a $96M contract....we don't just want to make the playoffs. We were a playoff team already if I recall correctly.....

The ultimate goal MUST be to win at least one Superbowl with this guy....or else it WILL be a failure.

You can't walk away 5 years from now....with no Lombardi trophies....and say, "Well, at least Manning made us a playoff team!!"

BroncoBeavis
03-26-2012, 08:30 AM
I'm not sure I understand why this would concern you. If he plays well this season and stays healthy they'll keep him. Otherwise they'll have a decision to make. We'll cross that bridge when we get to it.

^ DB4life beat me to it...

You act like there's any wiggle room in there. The only way they can walk away after a year is in the case of complete catastrophe... like either top-5 draft pick bad, or PM can't play anymore bad.

The idea that if we finish 9-7 and out of the playoffs this year, they're going to cut Manning and roll with Caleb Hanie in 2013 is comical.

bendog
03-26-2012, 08:39 AM
Tebow's effect on the running game was simply that his ability to fake to Willis and take the rock off the left tackle's outside shoulder was effective until defenses put a safety in the slot, and even then McCoy pulled out essetinally the old triple option with Royal. However, in the end, it didn't fool anyone as both Pitt and NE out gained Den on the ground, and unfortuantely, Tebow had not learned how to read with corner got safety help in Cover one, so ... NE murdered us.

But, hey, let's not discusse the manning offense, let's make this ANOTHER TEBOW THREAD, AYE JOHN GAULT

TonyR
03-26-2012, 08:47 AM
Tebow's effect on the running game...

Not to mention the fact that whatever we lose from Tebow we probably gain from no longer having 8-9 guys in the box every play.

BroncoBeavis
03-26-2012, 08:47 AM
Tebow is a huge part of the running game success last season, esp for mcgahee breaking 1000. But have you seen Peyton working with a 31st/32nd rated rushing offense? (see mannings last 3 seasons). I truly think a stronger pass game will also have a positive effect on Denvers rushing game. Hope it goes smoothly

You do realize that when Tebow wasn't in the game, 31st/32nd is about the neighborhood we were talking.

BroncoBeavis
03-26-2012, 08:48 AM
Tebow's effect on the running game was simply that his ability to fake to Willis and take the rock off the left tackle's outside shoulder was effective until defenses put a safety in the slot, and even then McCoy pulled out essetinally the old triple option with Royal. However, in the end, it didn't fool anyone as both Pitt and NE out gained Den on the ground, and unfortuantely, Tebow had not learned how to read with corner got safety help in Cover one, so ... NE murdered us.

But, hey, let's not discusse the manning offense, let's make this ANOTHER TEBOW THREAD, AYE JOHN GAULT

Great logic. Teams had to sell out to stop the Tebow run threat. Therefore Peyton Manning will have a great rushing attack.

jerseyguy4
03-26-2012, 08:51 AM
The ultimate goal MUST be to win at least one Superbowl with this guy....or else it WILL be a failure.
That's every team's ultimate goal every single year. And I suppose years after the fact, this is how seasons are judged.

But as a fan, do people really think there's much difference between the fans of the Superbowl winning team and the Superbowl losing team? I always think back to the Pats/Giants Superbowl from 07. Giants win in the final seconds.

Did Giants fans have a better season than the Pats fans? I don't think so. Pats fans saw their team win every game. And they were in the entire Superbowl, only losing right at the very end. It was an awesome season.

What extras do the Giants fans get? I suppose the evening of the Superbowl that partied some more. They get to tell people at work how awesome it is for a few days around the water cooler. But the truth is, it is fleeting. A week after the Superbowl, it's over. Football is over.

So I suppose years from now, Broncos pundits will look back at the Manning era and judge it by the rings it produced. But as a fan, it's time to enjoy it right now, and let history write its own story.

Manning has 1 Superbowl ring. I suppose that means he has 13 failed seasons. But I have watched every one of those seasons, and none of them ever felt like a failure during the season to me. (well, maybe 2 of them did!)

55CrushEm
03-26-2012, 08:56 AM
That's every team's ultimate goal every single year. And I suppose years after the fact, this is how seasons are judged.

But as a fan, do people really think there's much difference between the fans of the Superbowl winning team and the Superbowl losing team? I always think back to the Pats/Giants Superbowl from 07. Giants win in the final seconds.

Did Giants fans have a better season than the Pats fans? I don't think so. Pats fans saw their team win every game. And they were in the entire Superbowl, only losing right at the very end. It was an awesome season.

What extras do the Giants fans get? I suppose the evening of the Superbowl that partied some more. They get to tell people at work how awesome it is for a few days around the water cooler. But the truth is, it is fleeting. A week after the Superbowl, it's over. Football is over.

So I suppose years from now, Broncos pundits will look back at the Manning era and judge it by the rings it produced. But as a fan, it's time to enjoy it right now, and let history write its own story.

Manning has 1 Superbowl ring. I suppose that means he has 13 failed seasons. But I have watched every one of those seasons, and none of them ever felt like a failure during the season to me. (well, maybe 2 of them did!)

I hear everything you're saying. But the point is we were/are one of the youngest teams in the NFL....and we were ALREADY A PLAYOFF TEAM. So to go out and get Manning, who yes, instantly makes our offense FAR FAR better......

....it still has to pay off in a Superbowl.....precisely BECAUSE we were ALREADY on the up-and-up, young, playoff team, etc.....

Again, if you think that if 5 years go by WITHOUT a Lombardi.....that signing Manning will be viewed as "successful".....I simply disagree. I believe this move MUST payoff in a championship.

bendog
03-26-2012, 09:00 AM
I was here hoping for the second installment. I'm interested in the take on how both Manning and the recievers read the defenses, because I'm betting that there are post-huddle reads on what the routes branch out as.

Like this, but I thought the first installment on IAOFM was nicely done

http://smartfootball.blogspot.com/2009/01/peytons-favorite-pass-play-levels.html

bendog
03-26-2012, 09:03 AM
I hear everything you're saying. But the point is we were/are one of the youngest teams in the NFL....and we were ALREADY A PLAYOFF TEAM. So to go out and get Manning, who yes, instantly makes our offense FAR FAR better......

....it still has to pay off in a Superbowl.....precisely BECAUSE we were ALREADY on the up-and-up, young, playoff team, etc.....

Again, if you think if 5 years go by WITHOUT a Lombardi.....that signing Manning will be viewed as "successful".....I simply disagree. I believe this move MUST payoff in a championship.

I think winning the AFC will be enough. Manning and Bowlen (and EFX) want to win it, but for us fans .... we didn't beat Pitt, and the zebras pretty much gave that one to the AFC.

oubronco
03-26-2012, 09:03 AM
Nice find Bendog

Mediator12
03-26-2012, 01:01 PM
yours is the classic response i'd expect on the OM. setup a strawman and refute it. ignore the actual post.

let's try again. forget Tebow for a moment.

was the 2010 team a playoff caliber team?
was the 2011 team a playoff caliber team with Orton?

if you answered "yes" to either of those questions, this conversation is over and ends with me facepalming at you.

is the 2012 team essentially the same team that Orton played with, only with Manning in his place?

if you answered "no" to this question, this conversation is over and ends with me facepalming at you.

if you get to this point, then please explain to me how Manning and Manning alone suddenly elevates a really bad team (4-12 and then 1-4) all the way to SB contender status. if your answer is "everybody will play better, because you know, it's Peyton Manning and he's AWESOME and he releases the ball in 200 microseconds", then again, this conversation is over and you're a dumbass.

if you think you can explain how Manning by himself makes an OL that struggled with pass blocking last year (both with and without Tebow) and with young, inexperienced receivers (of which one has left for Sandy Eggo) that have never worked with Manning before, then please do.

also, how do we fill the holes on the defense? through the draft? we have deficiencies at DT (2 of them) and LB (1 or 2 of them depending how you feel about DJ Williams) and CB.

somehow, this FO needs to fill 3 or 4 holes this year with guys who we can rely on for the next 2-3 years. that's assuming we won't be competing for a SB in 2012. then next year, they have to do the same... fill 3 or 4 more holes so that come 2013, we are really a SB contender.

can you show me any offseason where we drafted 3 or 4 guys who became solid, established starters in their 1st or 2nd seasons in the league?

Wow! Guy takes a day off since the draft is slowing for a bit and i come back to this.

OK, where to start here.

1. It is not a strawman argument, even though you concocted a very simple one in response to my sarcasm. I guess I did not touch a nerve, I must have severed one ;D Your logic is that DEN is so flawed from a personnel position that last years 8-8 record was simply an aberration even with the QB that must not be mentioned!

2. I am not even going to attempt to respond to your second part of your post. It's absurd, and has nothing to do with playing football. I too could set up an unwinnable argument for you, but that's not how life is in reality. I always show both sides and concede what is wrong because I do not get caught up in looking tough or having to be right.

3. Let's talk football:

A. Every team in the NFL has a playoff caliber element to it. To blindly ascribe teams actual ability is ridiculous. DEN was not an especially individually talented team last year, but they played much better than the sum of their parts, especially on defense. That is why team sports are so damn unpredictable. Teams play better or worse than the sum of their parts every week. The best ones simply out play the team across from them more often than not. So, please stop with the drama over talent. Talent means NOTHING without execution on game day. Something DEN proved mightily they COULD do last year.

I seriously do not think the most talented team won the SB last year. Just the best TEAM playing together at the right time. Much like GB last year. Both the past SB winners were barely Playoff participants.

B. INDY was not very talented in the Payton Manning era. And, it more than showed last year without him. What they were was a systems team, which I have already explained. Their OL has been extremely poor and only decent at protecting inside out. They were bottom 2 in run blocking, pass protection, and missed assignments. They are horrific versus what DEN already has with injured and young guys. Add in a QB who gets rid of the ball on time, rarely gets sacked, and takes you out of bad plays pre-snap and they instantly look a lot better and probably perform much better without any improvement themselves. What happens when they get healthy and get another year under their belt as well? I think they will do tremendously better because they will not have to protect as long and can have the presnap advantage instead of disadvantage they had with last years limited scheme.

C. INDY's defense was built to play with a lead and failed miserably when they had to play standard defense. DEN, not only played well when they were straight up with teams, they excelled down the stretch of close games. Imagine what they could do with a 2 score lead? DEN's defense has a lot more bite into them and having an offense that would be close to leading the league in average drive and Points per drive would only make them stronger. Also, not leading the league in 3 and outs and average FP wouldn't hurt them either.

When INDY went to the SB 3 years ago, the defense stepped up for Manning that year. They won 4 games when Manning did not put up 24 points like they were designed to do. It was only When their defensive stars got Hurt in the second half of the SB that they failed. Peyton was undefeated and in the SB with half a defense behind him. That TEAM played much better than their natural talent.

That is my argument, plain and simple. Yes, DEN needs more talented players at key spots. All teams do. However, the good and great teams find ways to win anyway. That was DEN last year. I think they will be better with Manning right off the bat and I think they need to find some Vet FA's to come on board and play like Bunkley did for them last year. There are still plenty of those guys out there and I hope they are not done.

Finally, There is an old Maxim in Consulting. "Never forget the NOW, in order to take advantage of the future. The future is never gauranteed. Only the Present."

DBroncos4life
03-26-2012, 01:10 PM
Wow! Guy takes a day off since the draft is slowing for a bit and i come back to this.

OK, where to start here.

1. It is not a strawman argument, even though you concocted a very simple one in response to my sarcasm. I guess I did not touch a nerve, I must have severed one ;D Your logic is that DEN is so flawed from a personnel position that last years 8-8 record was simply an aberration even with the QB that must not be mentioned!

2. I am not even going to attempt to respond to your second part of your post. It's absurd, and has nothing to do with playing football. I too could set up an unwinnable argument for you, but that's not how life is in reality. I always show both sides and concede what is wrong because I do not get caught up in looking tough or having to be right.

3. Let's talk football:

A. Every team in the NFL has a playoff caliber element to it. To blindly ascribe teams actual ability is ridiculous. DEN was not an especially individually talented team last year, but they played much better than the sum of their parts, especially on defense. That is why team sports are so damn unpredictable. Teams play better or worse than the sum of their parts every week. The best ones simply out play the team across from them more often than not. So, please stop with the drama over talent. Talent means NOTHING without execution on game day. Something DEN proved mightily they COULD do last year.

I seriously do not think the most talented team won the SB last year. Just the best TEAM playing together at the right time. Much like GB last year. Both the past SB winners were barely Playoff participants.

B. INDY was not very talented in the Payton Manning era. And, it more than showed last year without him. What they were was a systems team, which I have already explained. Their OL has been extremely poor and only decent at protecting inside out. They were bottom 2 in run blocking, pass protection, and missed assignments. They are horrific versus what DEN already has with injured and young guys. Add in a QB who gets rid of the ball on time, rarely gets sacked, and takes you out of bad plays pre-snap and they instantly look a lot better and probably perform much better without any improvement themselves. What happens when they get healthy and get another year under their belt as well? I think they will do tremendously better because they will not have to protect as long and can have the presnap advantage instead of disadvantage they had with last years limited scheme.

C. INDY's defense was built to play with a lead and failed miserably when they had to play standard defense. DEN, not only played well when they were straight up with teams, they excelled down the stretch of close games. Imagine what they could do with a 2 score lead? DEN's defense has a lot more bite into them and having an offense that would be close to leading the league in average drive and Points per drive would only make them stronger. Also, not leading the league in 3 and outs and average FP wouldn't hurt them either.

When INDY went to the SB 3 years ago, the defense stepped up for Manning that year. They won 4 games when Manning did not put up 24 points like they were designed to do. It was only When their defensive stars got Hurt in the second half of the SB that they failed. Peyton was undefeated and in the SB with half a defense behind him. That TEAM played much better than their natural talent.

That is my argument, plain and simple. Yes, DEN needs more talented players at key spots. All teams do. However, the good and great teams find ways to win anyway. That was DEN last year. I think they will be better with Manning right off the bat and I think they need to find some Vet FA's to come on board and play like Bunkley did for them last year. There are still plenty of those guys out there and I hope they are not done.

Finally, There is an old Maxim in Consulting. "Never forget the NOW, in order to take advantage of the future. The future is never gauranteed. Only the Present."
If I could have your babies I would.....no homo

Rohirrim
03-26-2012, 01:36 PM
Getting a solid DT into the mix with that #25 pick will work wonders as well. Get a guy like Cox who I'm betting can play the 3 technique right out of the gate (I'm guessing we're going to a rush heavy defense). Play with the lead, get the TOs, and beat up the QB. Simple formula.

Broncolt
03-26-2012, 01:39 PM
Wow! Guy takes a day off since the draft is slowing for a bit and i come back to this.

OK, where to start here.

1. It is not a strawman argument, even though you concocted a very simple one in response to my sarcasm. I guess I did not touch a nerve, I must have severed one ;D Your logic is that DEN is so flawed from a personnel position that last years 8-8 record was simply an aberration even with the QB that must not be mentioned!

2. I am not even going to attempt to respond to your second part of your post. It's absurd, and has nothing to do with playing football. I too could set up an unwinnable argument for you, but that's not how life is in reality. I always show both sides and concede what is wrong because I do not get caught up in looking tough or having to be right.

3. Let's talk football:

A. Every team in the NFL has a playoff caliber element to it. To blindly ascribe teams actual ability is ridiculous. DEN was not an especially individually talented team last year, but they played much better than the sum of their parts, especially on defense. That is why team sports are so damn unpredictable. Teams play better or worse than the sum of their parts every week. The best ones simply out play the team across from them more often than not. So, please stop with the drama over talent. Talent means NOTHING without execution on game day. Something DEN proved mightily they COULD do last year.

I seriously do not think the most talented team won the SB last year. Just the best TEAM playing together at the right time. Much like GB last year. Both the past SB winners were barely Playoff participants.

B. INDY was not very talented in the Payton Manning era. And, it more than showed last year without him. What they were was a systems team, which I have already explained. Their OL has been extremely poor and only decent at protecting inside out. They were bottom 2 in run blocking, pass protection, and missed assignments. They are horrific versus what DEN already has with injured and young guys. Add in a QB who gets rid of the ball on time, rarely gets sacked, and takes you out of bad plays pre-snap and they instantly look a lot better and probably perform much better without any improvement themselves. What happens when they get healthy and get another year under their belt as well? I think they will do tremendously better because they will not have to protect as long and can have the presnap advantage instead of disadvantage they had with last years limited scheme.

C. INDY's defense was built to play with a lead and failed miserably when they had to play standard defense. DEN, not only played well when they were straight up with teams, they excelled down the stretch of close games. Imagine what they could do with a 2 score lead? DEN's defense has a lot more bite into them and having an offense that would be close to leading the league in average drive and Points per drive would only make them stronger. Also, not leading the league in 3 and outs and average FP wouldn't hurt them either.

When INDY went to the SB 3 years ago, the defense stepped up for Manning that year. They won 4 games when Manning did not put up 24 points like they were designed to do. It was only When their defensive stars got Hurt in the second half of the SB that they failed. Peyton was undefeated and in the SB with half a defense behind him. That TEAM played much better than their natural talent.

That is my argument, plain and simple. Yes, DEN needs more talented players at key spots. All teams do. However, the good and great teams find ways to win anyway. That was DEN last year. I think they will be better with Manning right off the bat and I think they need to find some Vet FA's to come on board and play like Bunkley did for them last year. There are still plenty of those guys out there and I hope they are not done.

Finally, There is an old Maxim in Consulting. "Never forget the NOW, in order to take advantage of the future. The future is never gauranteed. Only the Present."

QFT ^5

Agamemnon
03-26-2012, 03:43 PM
Getting a solid DT into the mix with that #25 pick will work wonders as well. Get a guy like Cox who I'm betting can play the 3 technique right out of the gate (I'm guessing we're going to a rush heavy defense). Play with the lead, get the TOs, and beat up the QB. Simple formula.

DT's almost always suck their first season or two. Drafting a DT does not fix our defense for this season. Not even remotely.

Rohirrim
03-26-2012, 03:59 PM
DT's almost always suck their first season or two. Drafting a DT does not fix our defense for this season. Not even remotely.

You've got to be the most negative person on this board. Sure, even a good DT out of college is going to have a growth curve to become a complete player, but that doesn't mean he can't come in and make an impact. Suck? Give the doom and gloom **** a rest.

DBroncos4life
03-26-2012, 04:11 PM
You've got to be the most negative person on this board. Sure, even a good DT out of college is going to have a growth curve to become a complete player, but that doesn't mean he can't come in and make an impact. Suck? Give the doom and gloom **** a rest.

In the last two seasons rookie DTs have had impacts on the DLine. This guy is a hating clown.

DENVERDUI55
03-26-2012, 04:12 PM
Wow! Guy takes a day off since the draft is slowing for a bit and i come back to this.

OK, where to start here.

1. It is not a strawman argument, even though you concocted a very simple one in response to my sarcasm. I guess I did not touch a nerve, I must have severed one ;D Your logic is that DEN is so flawed from a personnel position that last years 8-8 record was simply an aberration even with the QB that must not be mentioned!

2. I am not even going to attempt to respond to your second part of your post. It's absurd, and has nothing to do with playing football. I too could set up an unwinnable argument for you, but that's not how life is in reality. I always show both sides and concede what is wrong because I do not get caught up in looking tough or having to be right.

3. Let's talk football:

A. Every team in the NFL has a playoff caliber element to it. To blindly ascribe teams actual ability is ridiculous. DEN was not an especially individually talented team last year, but they played much better than the sum of their parts, especially on defense. That is why team sports are so damn unpredictable. Teams play better or worse than the sum of their parts every week. The best ones simply out play the team across from them more often than not. So, please stop with the drama over talent. Talent means NOTHING without execution on game day. Something DEN proved mightily they COULD do last year.

I seriously do not think the most talented team won the SB last year. Just the best TEAM playing together at the right time. Much like GB last year. Both the past SB winners were barely Playoff participants.

B. INDY was not very talented in the Payton Manning era. And, it more than showed last year without him. What they were was a systems team, which I have already explained. Their OL has been extremely poor and only decent at protecting inside out. They were bottom 2 in run blocking, pass protection, and missed assignments. They are horrific versus what DEN already has with injured and young guys. Add in a QB who gets rid of the ball on time, rarely gets sacked, and takes you out of bad plays pre-snap and they instantly look a lot better and probably perform much better without any improvement themselves. What happens when they get healthy and get another year under their belt as well? I think they will do tremendously better because they will not have to protect as long and can have the presnap advantage instead of disadvantage they had with last years limited scheme.

C. INDY's defense was built to play with a lead and failed miserably when they had to play standard defense. DEN, not only played well when they were straight up with teams, they excelled down the stretch of close games. Imagine what they could do with a 2 score lead? DEN's defense has a lot more bite into them and having an offense that would be close to leading the league in average drive and Points per drive would only make them stronger. Also, not leading the league in 3 and outs and average FP wouldn't hurt them either.

When INDY went to the SB 3 years ago, the defense stepped up for Manning that year. They won 4 games when Manning did not put up 24 points like they were designed to do. It was only When their defensive stars got Hurt in the second half of the SB that they failed. Peyton was undefeated and in the SB with half a defense behind him. That TEAM played much better than their natural talent.

That is my argument, plain and simple. Yes, DEN needs more talented players at key spots. All teams do. However, the good and great teams find ways to win anyway. That was DEN last year. I think they will be better with Manning right off the bat and I think they need to find some Vet FA's to come on board and play like Bunkley did for them last year. There are still plenty of those guys out there and I hope they are not done.

Finally, There is an old Maxim in Consulting. "Never forget the NOW, in order to take advantage of the future. The future is never gauranteed. Only the Present."

Owned you won't be hearing from Mr Galt I bet.

crush17
03-26-2012, 04:21 PM
Great post Med, as usual.

TonyR
03-27-2012, 10:55 AM
Part 2.

http://www.itsalloverfatman.com/broncos/entry/understanding-the-manning-offense-part-2

bendog
03-27-2012, 12:41 PM
Part 2.

http://www.itsalloverfatman.com/broncos/entry/understanding-the-manning-offense-part-2

And the thread died? lol

TonyR
03-27-2012, 12:59 PM
And the thread died? lol

I thought people would be interested in this football stuff. Apparently not. Maybe too simple for the hard core football junkies, and too complicated for everybody else? Most likely people just didn't bother to read it at all...

bendog
03-27-2012, 01:13 PM
I thought it interesting in that there didn't seem to be many post-snap reads that the qb and wr were required to by in synergy (God damn I love using that word in football!) with each other. Rather, it appeared to be pretty simple stuff, albiet Tebow will take years before he might even be able to do the simplist stuff. Take two tightends, and split em both into slots. If the OLB go with them, run the ball. If they don't, either should be open on an out route, with the recievers running the corners off by deep routes.

The slot guy has the nickle back by the shorthairs because he had no inside nor outside help. Stokely just reads with side the nickle cheats, and takes a route the other way, and Peyton lays it in.

If the corners and safeties show cover two, there's an open spot deep outside, and the running back is an easy throw in the slot. If it's man, the nickleback is in a tough spot.

Like the article said, it didn't even get to reading the safties, and that's actually the first place the qb looks when he comes to the line. It'll be interesting to see how this defelops. The link I put up yesterday about how a Manning offense has branches off routes also seemed to me to imply the basic concept was pretty simple. And that sucess was more about Peyton making consistent reads and putting the ball on the spot where the reciever knew it'd be. Consistency.

bendog
03-27-2012, 01:14 PM
Anyway, thanks for a football post.

DENVERDUI55
03-27-2012, 01:37 PM
Part 2.

http://www.itsalloverfatman.com/broncos/entry/understanding-the-manning-offense-part-2

Good football post. I can't wait for the season. This would of failed miserably last year.

bendog
03-27-2012, 01:42 PM
Good football post. I can't wait for the season. This would of failed miserably last year.

With either one of those two. Though, before the whole Tim saga began, and before offenses figured out what Nolan was doing with such terrible talent, Orton did execute McIdiot's offense. And that's more me suggesting McIdiot may not be an offensive idiot than Orton being anything more than a bottom tier starting qb best suited to backup.

Rohirrim
03-27-2012, 01:45 PM
I once read a story that a player asked a coach why the gaps and techniques are numbered that way, because it doesn't make a lot of sense and the coach answered, "'Cause Bear Bryant did it that way and nobody has had the guts to change it." ;D

Hulamau
03-27-2012, 01:51 PM
I can't wait to see Manning stand up there and do his thing, in orange! I still can't believe he's a Bronco. It's so great because I've seen him do it week in and week out, victimizing defenses across the league. Let's do it Manning!! I am pumped...

Alright, back to technical discussion of the offense...

Me too ... I just wish he was 31 when we got this gift! Still with a whole year off and never having taken a tremendous beating I think he can last at an elite level until he is 40 to 41 with solid protection.

Like a fine wine somethings get better with age ... up to a point.

TonyR
03-27-2012, 01:54 PM
I think he can last at an elite level until he is 40 to 41 with solid protection.

I agree. Keep those knees healthy and there's no reason he can't play another 3-5 years.

Cito Pelon
03-27-2012, 01:55 PM
I thought it interesting in that there didn't seem to be many post-snap reads that the qb and wr were required to by in synergy (God damn I love using that word in football!) with each other. Rather, it appeared to be pretty simple stuff, albiet Tebow will take years before he might even be able to do the simplist stuff. Take two tightends, and split em both into slots. If the OLB go with them, run the ball. If they don't, either should be open on an out route, with the recievers running the corners off by deep routes.

The slot guy has the nickle back by the shorthairs because he had no inside nor outside help. Stokely just reads with side the nickle cheats, and takes a route the other way, and Peyton lays it in.

If the corners and safeties show cover two, there's an open spot deep outside, and the running back is an easy throw in the slot. If it's man, the nickleback is in a tough spot.

Like the article said, it didn't even get to reading the safties, and that's actually the first place the qb looks when he comes to the line. It'll be interesting to see how this defelops. The link I put up yesterday about how a Manning offense has branches off routes also seemed to me to imply the basic concept was pretty simple. And that sucess was more about Peyton making consistent reads and putting the ball on the spot where the reciever knew it'd be. Consistency.

On paper, yeah. Execution of something that is theoretically so simple is another matter, right?

bendog
03-27-2012, 01:58 PM
On paper, yeah. Execution of something that is theoretically so simple is another matter, right?

Well, that is the point. There's no doubt no qb in football ever prepared to the detail level of Manning. It may be that the basics of a Peyton offense are pretty simple. I'm not sure that the link, or the one I put up yesterday that suggested a little more complexity in wr routes, are really correct. I recall shanny's passing offense required some post-snap reads, but I'd defer to Mediator on that.

But consistency of execution is Peyton's calling card. The ball is on the spot where it's supposed to be when it's supposed to be there. There are no surprises.

Rohirrim
03-27-2012, 02:05 PM
Well, that is the point. There's no doubt no qb in football ever prepared to the detail level of Manning. It may be that the basics of a Peyton offense are pretty simple. I'm not sure that the link, or the one I put up yesterday that suggested a little more complexity in wr routes, are really correct. I recall shanny's passing offense required some post-snap reads, but I'd defer to Mediator on that.

But consistency of execution is Peyton's calling card. The ball is on the spot where it's supposed to be when it's supposed to be there. There are no surprises.

Which is why he goes apoplectic when his receivers run the wrong route.

I hope Decker and DT and company understand how hard they are going to be worked.

bendog
03-27-2012, 02:08 PM
Which is why he goes apoplectic when his receivers run the wrong route.

I hope Decker and DT and company understand how hard they are going to be worked.

I think he goes apoplectic (big words, love it) cause he knows he's gonna get his neck slammed.

Rohirrim
03-27-2012, 02:10 PM
I think he goes apoplectic (big words, love it) cause he knows he's gonna get his neck slammed.

I just remember stories of Peyton, Wayne and Harrison going over the timing of routes for hours and hours.

Cito Pelon
03-27-2012, 02:10 PM
Wow! Guy takes a day off since the draft is slowing for a bit and i come back to this.

OK, where to start here.

1. It is not a strawman argument, even though you concocted a very simple one in response to my sarcasm. I guess I did not touch a nerve, I must have severed one ;D Your logic is that DEN is so flawed from a personnel position that last years 8-8 record was simply an aberration even with the QB that must not be mentioned!

2. I am not even going to attempt to respond to your second part of your post. It's absurd, and has nothing to do with playing football. I too could set up an unwinnable argument for you, but that's not how life is in reality. I always show both sides and concede what is wrong because I do not get caught up in looking tough or having to be right.

3. Let's talk football:

A. Every team in the NFL has a playoff caliber element to it. To blindly ascribe teams actual ability is ridiculous. DEN was not an especially individually talented team last year, but they played much better than the sum of their parts, especially on defense. That is why team sports are so damn unpredictable. Teams play better or worse than the sum of their parts every week. The best ones simply out play the team across from them more often than not. So, please stop with the drama over talent. Talent means NOTHING without execution on game day. Something DEN proved mightily they COULD do last year.

I seriously do not think the most talented team won the SB last year. Just the best TEAM playing together at the right time. Much like GB last year. Both the past SB winners were barely Playoff participants.

B. INDY was not very talented in the Payton Manning era. And, it more than showed last year without him. What they were was a systems team, which I have already explained. Their OL has been extremely poor and only decent at protecting inside out. They were bottom 2 in run blocking, pass protection, and missed assignments. They are horrific versus what DEN already has with injured and young guys. Add in a QB who gets rid of the ball on time, rarely gets sacked, and takes you out of bad plays pre-snap and they instantly look a lot better and probably perform much better without any improvement themselves. What happens when they get healthy and get another year under their belt as well? I think they will do tremendously better because they will not have to protect as long and can have the presnap advantage instead of disadvantage they had with last years limited scheme.

C. INDY's defense was built to play with a lead and failed miserably when they had to play standard defense. DEN, not only played well when they were straight up with teams, they excelled down the stretch of close games. Imagine what they could do with a 2 score lead? DEN's defense has a lot more bite into them and having an offense that would be close to leading the league in average drive and Points per drive would only make them stronger. Also, not leading the league in 3 and outs and average FP wouldn't hurt them either.

When INDY went to the SB 3 years ago, the defense stepped up for Manning that year. They won 4 games when Manning did not put up 24 points like they were designed to do. It was only When their defensive stars got Hurt in the second half of the SB that they failed. Peyton was undefeated and in the SB with half a defense behind him. That TEAM played much better than their natural talent.

That is my argument, plain and simple. Yes, DEN needs more talented players at key spots. All teams do. However, the good and great teams find ways to win anyway. That was DEN last year. I think they will be better with Manning right off the bat and I think they need to find some Vet FA's to come on board and play like Bunkley did for them last year. There are still plenty of those guys out there and I hope they are not done.

Finally, There is an old Maxim in Consulting. "Never forget the NOW, in order to take advantage of the future. The future is never gauranteed. Only the Present."

Well, that's the key I guess. Like Champ was saying the other day, the rest of the team has to take the bull by the horns and play hard and smart, not stand around watching in awe as Manning plays.

Rohirrim
03-27-2012, 02:14 PM
Well, that's the key I guess. Like Champ was saying the other day, the rest of the team has to take the bull by the horns and play hard and smart, not stand around watching in awe as Manning plays.

I think building a winning NFL team is more of an art than a science. It's not just having somebody filling each position. It's the lockerroom, how many vets, how many rookies, personalities, coaches, trainers...

and then there's luck.

TonyR
03-27-2012, 02:17 PM
I just remember stories of Peyton, Wayne and Harrison going over the timing of routes for hours and hours.

Then of course there's this story:


What's Manning's next coach going to get?

"A player who is totally driven to make everyone around him better," Dungy says. "That, to me, is the gist of Peyton Manning.

"One of my last years in Indianapolis (2007), we drafted (Ohio State WR) Anthony Gonzalez in the first round. Well, because of the rules that prevented rookies from fully participating in the offseason program until their colleges had graduation, Anthony couldn't come in until sometime in June. He missed a lot of time.

"But Peyton drove twice a week to Columbus -- about a three-hour drive each way -- to work out with Anthony and get him ready to be our slot receiver. A lot of people don't know that he did that.

"But that's the kind of drive and tenacity that he has. That's what you'll get."

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/thehuddle/post/2012/03/tony-dungy-says-peyton-mannings-next-coach-will-be-awed-by-qbs-drive-memory/1

Cito Pelon
03-27-2012, 02:24 PM
Well, that is the point. There's no doubt no qb in football ever prepared to the detail level of Manning. It may be that the basics of a Peyton offense are pretty simple. I'm not sure that the link, or the one I put up yesterday that suggested a little more complexity in wr routes, are really correct. I recall shanny's passing offense required some post-snap reads, but I'd defer to Mediator on that.

But consistency of execution is Peyton's calling card. The ball is on the spot where it's supposed to be when it's supposed to be there. There are no surprises.

I can see how the basics of calling the play and adjustments at the LOS are relatively simple, as opposed to having a 30 second long play call come in from the sideline that the QB has to repeat verbatim to the huddle.

Calling most of the O at the LOS introduces some problems also. Well, we'll see what the O brain trust comes up with, and how quickly the O gets on the same page as Manning if they do indeed go with the no-huddle "Manning offense".

Cito Pelon
03-27-2012, 02:40 PM
I think building a winning NFL team is more of an art than a science. It's not just having somebody filling each position. It's the lockerroom, how many vets, how many rookies, personalities, coaches, trainers...

and then there's luck.

We'll see what they have this year and next in terms of the team chemistry. This is a very young team, and about to get even younger if they end up keeping most of their draft picks.

They have a strong coaching staff, IMO, so that should help.

Rohirrim
03-27-2012, 02:45 PM
We'll see what they have this year and next in terms of the team chemistry. This is a very young team, and about to get even younger if they end up keeping most of their draft picks.

They have a strong coaching staff, IMO, so that should help.

Fortunately, bringing in a guy like Manning is only going to help, as far as building a team ethos of professionalism, focus and effort. I think Champ and Dawkins bring that to the D already, and we saw that last year. It will be very interesting to see how this young Oline responds to Manning, especially. We're going from a young captain back there who was pretty wild and daring, to an old salt who can handle the ship in any weather (just to beat that metaphor to death). ;D

McDman
03-27-2012, 03:09 PM
Wow! Guy takes a day off since the draft is slowing for a bit and i come back to this.

OK, where to start here.

1. It is not a strawman argument, even though you concocted a very simple one in response to my sarcasm. I guess I did not touch a nerve, I must have severed one ;D Your logic is that DEN is so flawed from a personnel position that last years 8-8 record was simply an aberration even with the QB that must not be mentioned!

2. I am not even going to attempt to respond to your second part of your post. It's absurd, and has nothing to do with playing football. I too could set up an unwinnable argument for you, but that's not how life is in reality. I always show both sides and concede what is wrong because I do not get caught up in looking tough or having to be right.

3. Let's talk football:

A. Every team in the NFL has a playoff caliber element to it. To blindly ascribe teams actual ability is ridiculous. DEN was not an especially individually talented team last year, but they played much better than the sum of their parts, especially on defense. That is why team sports are so damn unpredictable. Teams play better or worse than the sum of their parts every week. The best ones simply out play the team across from them more often than not. So, please stop with the drama over talent. Talent means NOTHING without execution on game day. Something DEN proved mightily they COULD do last year.

I seriously do not think the most talented team won the SB last year. Just the best TEAM playing together at the right time. Much like GB last year. Both the past SB winners were barely Playoff participants.

B. INDY was not very talented in the Payton Manning era. And, it more than showed last year without him. What they were was a systems team, which I have already explained. Their OL has been extremely poor and only decent at protecting inside out. They were bottom 2 in run blocking, pass protection, and missed assignments. They are horrific versus what DEN already has with injured and young guys. Add in a QB who gets rid of the ball on time, rarely gets sacked, and takes you out of bad plays pre-snap and they instantly look a lot better and probably perform much better without any improvement themselves. What happens when they get healthy and get another year under their belt as well? I think they will do tremendously better because they will not have to protect as long and can have the presnap advantage instead of disadvantage they had with last years limited scheme.

C. INDY's defense was built to play with a lead and failed miserably when they had to play standard defense. DEN, not only played well when they were straight up with teams, they excelled down the stretch of close games. Imagine what they could do with a 2 score lead? DEN's defense has a lot more bite into them and having an offense that would be close to leading the league in average drive and Points per drive would only make them stronger. Also, not leading the league in 3 and outs and average FP wouldn't hurt them either.

When INDY went to the SB 3 years ago, the defense stepped up for Manning that year. They won 4 games when Manning did not put up 24 points like they were designed to do. It was only When their defensive stars got Hurt in the second half of the SB that they failed. Peyton was undefeated and in the SB with half a defense behind him. That TEAM played much better than their natural talent.

That is my argument, plain and simple. Yes, DEN needs more talented players at key spots. All teams do. However, the good and great teams find ways to win anyway. That was DEN last year. I think they will be better with Manning right off the bat and I think they need to find some Vet FA's to come on board and play like Bunkley did for them last year. There are still plenty of those guys out there and I hope they are not done.

Finally, There is an old Maxim in Consulting. "Never forget the NOW, in order to take advantage of the future. The future is never gauranteed. Only the Present."

This is better than pretty much anything I could write.

I really don't think we will win the SB this year, I think if it happens it is in '13 and '14.

Cito Pelon
03-27-2012, 03:11 PM
Fortunately, bringing in a guy like Manning is only going to help, as far as building a team ethos of professionalism, focus and effort. I think Champ and Dawkins bring that to the D already, and we saw that last year. It will be very interesting to see how this young Oline responds to Manning, especially. We're going from a young captain back there who was pretty wild and daring, to an old salt who can handle the ship in any weather (just to beat that metaphor to death). ;D

So it's Captain Queeg vs. Fletcher Christian? :wiggle: Or is it King Agamemnon vs. Achilles?

Rohirrim
03-27-2012, 03:29 PM
So it's Captain Queeg vs. Fletcher Christian? :wiggle: Or is it King Agamemnon vs. Achilles?

More like Wyatt Earp to Billy the Kid. ;D

fontaine
03-28-2012, 04:27 AM
1. It's not like Manning is working with completely new skill players. Tamme knows the Manning offense and will be there in the offseason/camp to work with Dreessen and the others.

2. Stokley was already involved in recruiting Manning to Denver and he's already working out with him. No doubt he's going to be working with Decker/DT to get them up to speed as well and will be brought into camp (what else is he going to do this offseason?).

3. And then there's Jack Del Rio who has had success against Manning in the past and played against him TWICE a year for a decade. He's going to be crucial in exploiting/highlighting every weakeness/deficiency in our WRs/TEs and providing them with a defensive perspective on how they'll be defended.

The only genuine area of concern is the interior in Walton/Beadles and I'm not going to venture how they'll pan out. I remain skeptical but we'll know more once OTAs start off. If someone like Walton is STILL struggling then they can always bring in an experienced safety net in Dan Koppen.

Ultimately, yes, it comes down to execution and you get that by individual players working hard in their preparation. We have a coaching staff that got the entire offense to buy into that approach even while completey changing around the offense midseason with Tebow with the only malcontent in Lloyd being shipped out immediately.

If those same guys can go all out for someone like Tebow who was learning and making mistakes then they'll go the extra distance for a Hall of Fame QB that can get them closer to that championship game.

cutthemdown
03-28-2012, 04:32 AM
I worry about Manning just being as good as he used to be. Some say he lost velocity that last yr he played. Still went off for 4700 but there were whispers his ball not as good. Here is to hoping he will be worth all this!

TonyR
03-28-2012, 06:43 AM
The only genuine area of concern is the interior in Walton/Beadles and I'm not going to venture how they'll pan out. I remain skeptical but we'll know more once OTAs start off.

Is it naive of me to hope that they benefit from the strength and conditioning program, as well as the coaching, that they probably didn't get much of prior to last season?

jerseyguy4
03-28-2012, 06:51 AM
I worry about Manning just being as good as he used to be. Some say he lost velocity that last yr he played. Still went off for 4700 but there were whispers his ball not as good. Here is to hoping he will be worth all this!
The current article from NFL.com suggests that the zip he lost in 2010 was due to his deteriorated pinched nerve, which is exactly why he had the surgery.

fontaine
03-28-2012, 09:01 AM
Is it naive of me to hope that they benefit from the strength and conditioning program, as well as the coaching, that they probably didn't get much of prior to last season?

Strength and conditioning is only part of it.

Beadles doesn't play with proper leverage and technique.

Peyton's nerve
03-28-2012, 09:53 AM
The current article from NFL.com suggests that the zip he lost in 2010 was due to his deteriorated pinched nerve, which is exactly why he had the surgery.

Let's hope it works!

TonyR
04-17-2012, 01:15 PM
Part 6 posted today (the seven-step passing game)


http://www.itsalloverfatman.com/broncos/entry/understanding-the-manning-offense-part-6

Dedhed
04-17-2012, 01:21 PM
Is it naive of me to hope that they benefit from the strength and conditioning program, as well as the coaching, that they probably didn't get much of prior to last season?

You, of course, realize that you have argued against this exact logic for the last 9 months.

BroncoBeavis
04-17-2012, 01:23 PM
You, of course, realize that you have argued against this exact logic for the last 9 months.

Peyton makes all things new.

TonyR
04-17-2012, 01:28 PM
You, of course, realize that you have argued against this exact logic for the last 9 months.

I'm going to assume you're referring to Tebow since I've never argued against this regarding our offensive line which is what is being talked about here. And if I assume correctly there is really no comparison between a QB and an offensive lineman. So no, I have not argued against "this exact logic" for the last 9 months. In fact, again assuming you're talking about Tebow, I never argued that he can't get better. I have, however, argued that he'll probably never be good enough.

Drek
04-17-2012, 01:37 PM
Strength and conditioning is only part of it.

Beadles doesn't play with proper leverage and technique.

Because he's never had a significant amount of good coaching as a LG.

He played guard one year in college then played tackle the next three. His first year in the league he was being coached by someone out of their depth (who is now back in his comfort zone as a TE coach) while being shuffled about as the injury replacement swing man at bout OT and OG. Last season he got a shortened off-season to work with a new OL coach.

Same for Walton really, though at least Walton hasn't had his position changed multiple times.

Both of these guys have potential for big steps forward with a full off-season of working with Magazu. So does Franklin. Clady could take a big step forward simply by having his first off-season in two years of real strength and conditioning.

Add that Manning will make their lives easier with his reads at the line and will audible into schemes that will limit the amount of time they need to protect and you have a recipe for significant improvement.

DT and Decker also could break out big with Manning. Both have the complete tool box of WR skills with the only possible exception being Decker's lack of elite deep speed and it's not like he's slow. Both appear to be intelligent young men, and if I recall both did well on the wonderlic coming out of college so there is some (slight) corroboration to that. Given enough time to work with Manning they both can likely digest the intricacies of Manning's offense from a WR standpoint. Both will be going into year three as well, a breakout period in most WRs careers.

The big key to me for this offense to be truly elite is an all purpose RB to round out Manning's available options. McGahee is a between the tackles hammer, he doesn't offer home run potential and he doesn't catch the ball well. Moreno is a questionable runner between the tackles but does the secondary things (pass pro, run routes, catch the ball) well. If we could combine them we'd have one complete back. Instead we have none.

That is why, to me, there are two backs in this draft we need to key in on. Doug Martin and Robert Turbin. We need one of the two. Martin is the safer bet but both have a Matt Forte type ceiling and would give Manning an awesome weapon to work with and take the pressure off in short yardage situations.

bendog
04-17-2012, 02:01 PM
Part 6 posted today (the seven-step passing game)


http://www.itsalloverfatman.com/broncos/entry/understanding-the-manning-offense-part-6

I don't want a lot of 7 step drops. I like Franklin as a road grader, but peyton has a bad neck.

TonyR
04-17-2012, 02:05 PM
I don't want a lot of 7 step drops. I like Franklin as a road grader, but peyton has a bad neck.

I hear ya. The author mentions that the 3 and 5 step were the focus of the Manning offense in Indy. But if our O-line is better than Indy's, as the author suggests, some 7 step can perhaps be included.

Mediator12
01-28-2013, 11:08 PM
yours is the classic response i'd expect on the OM. setup a strawman and refute it. ignore the actual post.

let's try again. forget Tebow for a moment.

was the 2010 team a playoff caliber team?
was the 2011 team a playoff caliber team with Orton?

if you answered "yes" to either of those questions, this conversation is over and ends with me facepalming at you.

is the 2012 team essentially the same team that Orton played with, only with Manning in his place?

if you answered "no" to this question, this conversation is over and ends with me facepalming at you.

if you get to this point, then please explain to me how Manning and Manning alone suddenly elevates a really bad team (4-12 and then 1-4) all the way to SB contender status. if your answer is "everybody will play better, because you know, it's Peyton Manning and he's AWESOME and he releases the ball in 200 microseconds", then again, this conversation is over and you're a dumbass.

if you think you can explain how Manning by himself makes an OL that struggled with pass blocking last year (both with and without Tebow) and with young, inexperienced receivers (of which one has left for Sandy Eggo) that have never worked with Manning before, then please do.

also, how do we fill the holes on the defense? through the draft? we have deficiencies at DT (2 of them) and LB (1 or 2 of them depending how you feel about DJ Williams) and CB.

somehow, this FO needs to fill 3 or 4 holes this year with guys who we can rely on for the next 2-3 years. that's assuming we won't be competing for a SB in 2012. then next year, they have to do the same... fill 3 or 4 more holes so that come 2013, we are really a SB contender.

can you show me any offseason where we drafted 3 or 4 guys who became solid, established starters in their 1st or 2nd seasons in the league?

DEN went 13-3 and were the top seed in the AFC. Everything I said in my post that would happen with Manning came true. I think you owe me an apology ;D