PDA

View Full Version : With Manning on Board and Tebow gone....


Dedhed
03-21-2012, 10:14 AM
Where do we go in terms of QBOTF?

Firstly, I would love for this thread to not devolve into a discussion on whether the moves were the right one's or not, there are 35 threads for that. Let's just accept that we are where we are and go from there.

Manning is the QB of the now, but I think we can all agree that he is a 3-4 year option at best, and Weber seems like a pretty weak backup plan if Manning's head falls off this year.

Let's discuss QBOTF.

ayjackson
03-21-2012, 10:24 AM
Ostwieler? Foles?

Ronnie Tsunami
03-21-2012, 10:25 AM
In before the "Weeden."

Anyone who says weeden is clueless. Bro's 30. Would have been ok for a plug and play immediately. can't start him at 33.

Spider
03-21-2012, 10:26 AM
been looking for a QBOTF since elway retired ........dont know what makes this situation so different

BroncoFanatic
03-21-2012, 10:27 AM
Given the length of Manning's contract, our QBOTF is probably in high school right now

Requiem
03-21-2012, 10:28 AM
Cousins, Osweiler or Lindley.

razorwire77
03-21-2012, 10:28 AM
Draft Ryan Lindley with the newly acquired 4th rounder. He's got size 6'4" 235. He's got above average arm strength. The kid basically needs to sit for a year or two.

Draft Lindley and develop him.

Acquire a decent veteran backup via FA.

bronco militia
03-21-2012, 10:28 AM
we should just wait for the Jets to cut Tebow....

Gort
03-21-2012, 10:32 AM
Where do we go in terms of QBOTF?

Firstly, I would love for this thread to not devolve into a discussion on whether the moves were the right one's or not, there are 35 threads for that. Let's just accept that we are where we are and go from there.

Manning is the QB of the now, but I think we can all agree that he is a 3-4 year option at best, and Weber seems like a pretty weak backup plan if Manning's head falls off this year.

Let's discuss QBOTF.

if Manning hurts his neck again on the first sack in the first quarter of the first game, then Weber is the QBOTF and we are all f'ed.

Elway has gone all in and bet the farm that Manning doesn't get hurt for the duration of his contract. a very risky gamble in my opinion.

Drunken.Broncoholic
03-21-2012, 10:34 AM
Hard to discuss anything with Broncofanatics AV giving us a salute.

Requiem
03-21-2012, 10:34 AM
Draft Ryan Lindley with the newly acquired 4th rounder. He's got size 6'4" 235. He's got above average arm strength. The kid basically needs to sit for a year or two.

Draft Lindley and develop him.

Acquire a decent veteran backup via FA.

Exactly what I'm hoping. No reason to spend earlier than that on a guy who is going to sit behind Manning. Lindley would be a great developmental QB. If we do go early, I like Cousins. Smart, cerebral and a solid football player.

SonOfLe-loLang
03-21-2012, 10:35 AM
I assume the QBOTF will NOT be drafted this season. Maybe next

Dedhed
03-21-2012, 10:36 AM
Exactly what I'm hoping. No reason to spend earlier than that on a guy who is going to sit behind Manning. Lindley would be a great developmental QB. If we do go early, I like Cousins. Smart, cerebral and a solid football player.

I think Lindley is dumber than Rocks. He reminds me of every strong armed QB who failed because they believe their arm is all they need.

Drunken.Broncoholic
03-21-2012, 10:37 AM
I think Lindley is dumber than Rocks. He reminds me of every string armed QB who failed because they believe their arm is all they need.

Jeff george?

Lindley could pan out to be very good. I would take Foles

Bmore Manning
03-21-2012, 10:40 AM
I like Osweiler, but I would rather use all early picks to strengthen the team on the defensive side of the ball. I could see Denver trading for Wallace, so the first actual pick would need to go to the defense, DT and LB.

Drunken.Broncoholic
03-21-2012, 10:40 AM
Aaron Murray?

Requiem
03-21-2012, 10:42 AM
I think Lindley is dumber than Rocks. He reminds me of every strong armed QB who failed because they believe their arm is all they need.

Though, he doesn't feel that way at all and almost all scouting outlets like Lindley because he is a veteran leader and a cerebral player.

Vontaze Burfict is dumber than a cummy Kleenex.

ludo21
03-21-2012, 10:42 AM
caleb hanie

Taco John
03-21-2012, 10:43 AM
I assume the QBOTF will NOT be drafted this season. Maybe next

I don't know. Is that something that you can wait on when you've got an injury risk starting? I don't think so. I think we have to be looking at a developmental prospect this year.

Dedhed
03-21-2012, 10:45 AM
I like Osweiler, but I would rather use all early picks to strengthen the team on the defensive side of the ball. I could see Denver trading for Wallace, so the first actual pick would need to go to the defense, DT and LB.

I like Osweiler also, but I'm torn on where to invest draft picks. With Manning as the QB do you look to make the offense a juggernaut and hope the defense is serviceable or do you look to build the defense and count on the fact that Manning will make the offense great regardless of who's there?

Do you roll the dice on Manning staying healthy, or do you draft a contigency player now?

There are serious questions to consider.

Requiem
03-21-2012, 10:49 AM
Peyton Manning is starting this year. Nobody after the first couple of top QB's are going to be full-time signal callers. We don't need to spend higher than a fourth round selection on a guy sitting on the bench. If we bring in another FA QB, I say it eliminates our need to draft one completely -- unless you want to use a late rounder.

Dedhed
03-21-2012, 10:49 AM
Though, he doesn't feel that way at all and almost all scouting outlets like Lindley because he is a veteran leader and a cerebral player.All scouting outlets liked Ryan Leaf, means nothing. Lindley makes terrible decisions on the field, so I don't know how you call him cerebral.

He's never completed 60% of his passes in a season and regressed to 53% against MWC competition. I don't see anything other than a strong arm.

gyldenlove
03-21-2012, 10:50 AM
Osweiler, he is just the type that Elway loves, big kid with a huge arm and decent athleticism, he also has the added bonus of not being ready for play for a while.

Slightly Soiled
03-21-2012, 10:50 AM
I say bring in Painter. He can run Mannings O if he goes down.......Wait

Requiem
03-21-2012, 10:53 AM
Why are you equating accuracy to being smart? He has thrown twice as many TD's as interceptions. He doesn't make a whole lot of poor decisions. He needs to work on his mechanics and footwork and the accuracy will improve.

Dedhed
03-21-2012, 10:53 AM
Osweiler, he is just the type that Elway loves, big kid with a huge arm and decent athleticism, he also has the added bonus of not being ready for play for a while.

would you be willing to invest a 2nd round pick in Brock this year?

maher_tyler
03-21-2012, 10:55 AM
Ostwieler? Foles?

In the 2nd

Rother8
03-21-2012, 10:58 AM
Foles in 3rd and OR Barkley next year.

maher_tyler
03-21-2012, 10:59 AM
Foles in 3rd and OR Barkley next year.

Foles will be gone by the 3rd, imo.

Dedhed
03-21-2012, 11:00 AM
Foles in 3rd and OR Barkley next year.

I'm not a fan of Foles. Seems like a candy Striper to me. If Manning stays healthy all year I don't see Barkley as an option in 2013.

Bmore Manning
03-21-2012, 11:07 AM
I'm not a fan of Foles. Seems like a candy Striper to me. If Manning stays healthy all year I don't see Barkley as an option in 2013.

I think they need to go D heavy. Manning makes the O.

yerner
03-21-2012, 11:09 AM
Foles in 3rd and OR Barkley next year.

How the hell do they get Barkley next year?

TheDave
03-21-2012, 11:10 AM
Not sure how old some of you are... but... in the NFL 4 years is a lifetime.

Manning is our QB now and for the foreseeable future.

enjolras
03-21-2012, 11:15 AM
Kellen Moore with one of our fifth rounders. He has all the tools, just lacks the height. I think it can work.

Crushaholic
03-21-2012, 11:20 AM
Not sure how old some of you are... but... in the NFL 4 years is a lifetime.

Manning is our QB now and for the foreseeable future.

I'm not sure that he will be able to finish his entire contract. While one eye is squarely on Manning, the other eye needs to be grooming the next QB...

NUB
03-21-2012, 11:21 AM
Um, you can forget about QBOTF while Manning is here. This is another example of people not understanding who Manning is. Backups die underneath him as he is a practice machine that takes all the reps. We are all in with Manning.

TonyR
03-21-2012, 11:23 AM
Is that something that you can wait on when you've got an injury risk starting?

It's been reported multiple times, and stated here multiple times, that Peyton Manning is no more at risk for injury than any other player. His neck is as strong as it was prior to his injury.

TheDave
03-21-2012, 11:25 AM
I'm not sure that he will be able to finish his entire contract. While one eye is squarely on Manning, the other eye needs to be grooming the next QB...


I think Elway would consider drafting a QB this year a Tommy Maddox move... Maybe in a year or 2 but not this year.

Remember even Manning has one of those delicate QB egos. IMO Elway will look to groom a replacement in 2014... not now.

LRtagger
03-21-2012, 11:28 AM
If Manning gets hurt early and goes on IR, it will be a rough year but we will be in the same position the Colts are in this year...should be able to draft a blue chip QB and opt out of the future portions of Manning's contract.

Taco John
03-21-2012, 11:29 AM
It's been reported multiple times, and stated here multiple times, that Peyton Manning is no more at risk for injury than any other player. His neck is as strong as it was prior to his injury.

Nevertheless... We have to protect ourselves. Your point hardly means anything because EVERY NFL player is at significant injury risk.

jhns
03-21-2012, 11:32 AM
It's been reported multiple times, and stated here multiple times, that Peyton Manning is no more at risk for injury than any other player. His neck is as strong as it was prior to his injury.

Which is why he knew he had to accept injury clauses in his contract!

...

TonyR
03-21-2012, 11:34 AM
Which is why he knew he had to accept injury clauses in his contract!

...

This is more about his recovery than it is about being "reinjured". And the fact that he was willing to sign such a team friendly contract goes to show his confidence in his recovery.

TonyR
03-21-2012, 11:34 AM
Nevertheless... We have to protect ourselves.

Agree, particularly with an "older' QB. And with Beadles still on the roster...

kappys
03-21-2012, 11:35 AM
We have the next 2 drafts to see what happens. If a QB prospect is available that Elway likes snap him up. I predict 3-4 years out of PM so the urgency isn't super high this season.
Granted PM could get injured but as Elway noted - there is no plan B. One plan B would have been to keep Tebow, but even he was likely a 1 years solution only. His salary jumps to around $6 mil in 2013 too much for a backup who would never really see the field.

jhns
03-21-2012, 11:36 AM
This is more about his recovery than it is about being "reinjured". And the fact that he was willing to sign such a team friendly contract goes to show his confidence in his recovery.

So he has to pass a physical every year because they are worried about recovery? Recovery is the concern after he has played a couple seasons? I don't think so...

Broncoman13
03-21-2012, 11:37 AM
Ostweiler FTW!

ColoradoDarin
03-21-2012, 11:38 AM
I assume the QBOTF will NOT be drafted this season. Maybe next

This!

Roll with Hanie as backup. Lord help us if Manning goes down.

cousinal11
03-21-2012, 11:40 AM
Russell Wilson

TonyR
03-21-2012, 11:43 AM
So he has to pass a physical every year because they are worried about recovery? Recovery is the concern after he has played a couple seasons? I don't think so...

There is a risk of "adjacent segment degeneration", but this is more a "condition" than it is an "injury". More info in the article linked here:

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/story/2012-03-08/doctors-upbeat-on-manning-health/53424974/1

Wellington K. Hsu, a spine surgeon and assistant professor at Northwestern University, says the fused area should not be vulnerable. "In fact, his neck is probably stronger now than it was before the surgery because he has a solid, bony fusion," Hsu said.

Rick Sasso, an Indianapolis spine surgeon who, like Hsu, was not involved in Manning's treatment, agrees. "As long as the fusion was solid, that segment is very protected," he said.

Sasso says the surgery Manning had, known medically as a "single level anterior fusion," is common. He estimates he has performed about 1,500 of them.

"It's one of the most routine operations we do now as spine surgeons. We do it as an out-patient. Most out-patients go home about four hours after the operation is done,' Sasso said.

Cito Pelon
03-21-2012, 11:49 AM
Lindley, Foles seem like projects worth drafting. Apparently, EFX liked Weeden and he's rated pretty high by some people. Osweiler, he's the dreaded underclassman guy with 15 starts, right?

Now, with Manning on the team maybe he can help with talent evaluation, maybe it's MEFX or EFXM, or EFMX for talent evaluation. Maybe PM has some input/insight.

IMO, the FO really should go ahead and draft a project this year.

Jekyll15Hyde
03-21-2012, 11:51 AM
Osweiler, he is just the type that Elway loves, big kid with a huge arm and decent athleticism, he also has the added bonus of not being ready for play for a while.

I am on board with Osweiler

Dedhed
03-21-2012, 11:56 AM
His neck is as strong as it was prior to his injury.
Not even close.

DomCasual
03-21-2012, 11:56 AM
Russell Wilson

Well, I did dream of him playing in Denver, at one time.

Dedhed
03-21-2012, 12:01 PM
Well, I did dream of him playing in Denver, at one time.
Russell Wilson hardly seems the type that Elway is looking for at the position.

Beantown Bronco
03-21-2012, 12:04 PM
Not even close.

Hmmmm, do we believe Dedhed or Wellington K. Hsu, a spine surgeon and assistant professor at Northwestern University.....decisions, decisions.

kappys
03-21-2012, 12:07 PM
Hmmmm, do we believe Dedhed or Wellington K. Hsu, a spine surgeon and assistant professor at Northwestern University.....decisions, decisions.

Well Dedhed has a groovy avatar and Dr. Hsu hasn't even made full professor yet.

edog24
03-21-2012, 12:11 PM
Jack

Cito Pelon
03-21-2012, 12:13 PM
This is more about his recovery than it is about being "reinjured". And the fact that he was willing to sign such a team friendly contract goes to show his confidence in his recovery.

True about the recovery aspect. But, if the "regaining arm strength because of nerve damage" aspect is true, then it's possible there may be further nerve damage if there is a reinjury.

Whatever, they're rolling with PM this year and will address the QBOTF later. They don't have total unmitigated confidence in PM's long-term health obviously.

DomCasual
03-21-2012, 12:13 PM
Russell Wilson hardly seems the type that Elway is looking for at the position.

Yeah, it's a Rockies thing.

Agamemnon
03-21-2012, 01:11 PM
I assume the QBOTF will NOT be drafted this season. Maybe next

Doubt it. We'll draft project QB's in later rounds and hope we find a diamond in the rough, but the reality is we are trying to win now so our high draft picks are going to be spent on other things for the next few years.

TonyR
03-21-2012, 01:21 PM
Hmmmm, do we believe Dedhed or Wellington K. Hsu, a spine surgeon and assistant professor at Northwestern University.....decisions, decisions.

LOL I've been down this road with him more than once already. Some people never learn.

BroncoBeavis
03-21-2012, 01:24 PM
Hmmmm, do we believe Dedhed or Wellington K. Hsu, a spine surgeon and assistant professor at Northwestern University.....decisions, decisions.

Read a little further and they'll talk about there being a risk of related injury further up or down the spine. So the risk isn't where the surgery was done, but the impact that has on the spine around the fusion.

There's no such thing as a surgery that just makes your spine stronger. There are always risks.

jhns
03-21-2012, 01:28 PM
Hmmmm, do we believe Dedhed or Wellington K. Hsu, a spine surgeon and assistant professor at Northwestern University.....decisions, decisions.

Or Manning, the teams, and everyone else actually involved in the situation. I'm sure Manning agreed to all the injury clauses because his neck is better than ever....

Turd_Ferguson
03-21-2012, 01:29 PM
I would like to see them draft Kellen Moore late. I like Osweiler too, he kinda reminds me of Tom Brady when he was a rookie... Gangly and awkward looking, who knows he might fill out and end up being a solid QB. Moore seems to have good football smarts, and it would be really interesting to what he could be like after sitting behind Manning a few years.

Beantown Bronco
03-21-2012, 01:31 PM
Read a little further and they'll talk about there being a risk of related injury further up or down the spine. So the risk isn't where the surgery was done, but the impact that has on the spine around the fusion.

There's no such thing as a surgery that just makes your spine stronger. There are always risks.

You are making a different argument. Try to keep up. Nobody said anything about the spine. Just the neck.

"In fact, his neck is probably stronger now than it was before the surgery because he has a solid, bony fusion," Hsu said

dedhed said that this statement above was BS. I'd like to know his qualifications for saying that.

Dedhed
03-22-2012, 11:34 AM
Hmmmm, do we believe Dedhed or Wellington K. Hsu, a spine surgeon and assistant professor at Northwestern University.....decisions, decisions.

What that Dr said doesn't have anything to do with it. TonyR(tard) said his noeck is 100%. It's not, and it's not close.

Dedhed
03-22-2012, 11:39 AM
You are making a different argument. Try to keep up. Nobody said anything about the spine. Just the neck.

"In fact, his neck is probably stronger now than it was before the surgery because he has a solid, bony fusion," Hsu said

dedhed said that this statement above was BS. I'd like to know his qualifications for saying that.I didn't say anything of the sort. I said tony was wrong for stating that Manning's is 100%. He's not, and won't be for awhile. When you take into account the lost range of motion that accompanies the fusion of formerly moving parts, he'll never be 100% his old self. It's not possible by the definition of the surgery that was performed.

What the Dr. is saying in your quote is that the fused segment is structurally fine, and likely stronger than it was prior to surgery. That doesn't speak at all to the reduced range of motion, the atrophied muscles, and the destroyed nerves in the surrounding area.

Dedhed
03-22-2012, 11:40 AM
LOL I've been down this road with him more than once already. Some people never learn.

You're that person.

TonyR
03-22-2012, 11:43 AM
I said tony was wrong for stating that Manning's is 100%.

LOL Which makes you look even more stupid since I didn't say any such thing. I did, however, quote what two spinal surgeons have to say on the topic, but clearly they don't know as much about it as you...

Dedhed
03-22-2012, 11:48 AM
His neck is as strong as it was prior to his injury.
Derp!

TonyR
03-22-2012, 11:51 AM
Derp!

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/footb...lth/53424974/1

Wellington K. Hsu, a spine surgeon and assistant professor at Northwestern University, says the fused area should not be vulnerable. "In fact, his neck is probably stronger now than it was before the surgery because he has a solid, bony fusion," Hsu said.

Rick Sasso, an Indianapolis spine surgeon who, like Hsu, was not involved in Manning's treatment, agrees. "As long as the fusion was solid, that segment is very protected," he said.


ROFL! Dr. Dedhead knows better!

BroncoMan4ever
03-22-2012, 11:54 AM
Where do we go in terms of QBOTF?

Firstly, I would love for this thread to not devolve into a discussion on whether the moves were the right one's or not, there are 35 threads for that. Let's just accept that we are where we are and go from there.

Manning is the QB of the now, but I think we can all agree that he is a 3-4 year option at best, and Weber seems like a pretty weak backup plan if Manning's head falls off this year.

Let's discuss QBOTF.

i like the idea of Foles in the 4th or 5th. of all the QBs in the draft his skill set most closely mirrors Peyton's, so the learning curve while steep would not require a reworking of his playing style. he is intelligent a good leader for a bad team and does have a lot of raw potential.

Dedhed
03-22-2012, 11:56 AM
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/footb...lth/53424974/1

Wellington K. Hsu, a spine surgeon and assistant professor at Northwestern University, says the fused area should not be vulnerable. "In fact, his neck is probably stronger now than it was before the surgery because he has a solid, bony fusion," Hsu said.

Rick Sasso, an Indianapolis spine surgeon who, like Hsu, was not involved in Manning's treatment, agrees. "As long as the fusion was solid, that segment is very protected," he said.


ROFL! Dr. Dedhead knows better!
You really don't have a clue do you? He's talking about THE FUSED AREA! being stronger, and the fused area alone. THAT SEGMENT

He's not speaking to his neck in general you tool.

Why would Manning say he has a way to go if you had any clue what you were talking about?

BroncoBeavis
03-22-2012, 11:57 AM
Guys I just got some updated scientific opinion on the subject via TGN neg rep message..

i had a similar surgery over 30 years ago when they still used 'wooden pegs' to isolate/ fuse the vetebrea and it didn't manifest itself as a problem for decades. stop being a timmy tool.

There you have it folks. If wooden pegs can hold up through TGN's rigorous bratwurst and fapathon schedule, it's a lock that Manning's neck is ready for 300 lb linemen. :)

TonyR
03-22-2012, 12:00 PM
Why would Manning say he has a way to go if you had any clue what you were talking about?

Dear god you're stupid. His "ways to go" involves his arm strength, not his neck. We've been over this multiple times and there are countless articles that discuss it. I don't have time to keep educating you and proving you wrong. Go argue with someone you may actually have a chance against: yourself. I just showed you two spinal surgeons basically saying what a moron you are, I don't know what else to tell you. Other than you're wrong.

DarkHorse30
03-22-2012, 12:00 PM
Kellen Moore with one of our fifth rounders. He has all the tools, just lacks the height. I think it can work.

bingo. 56-24, Brock.

Dedhed
03-22-2012, 12:00 PM
i like the idea of Foles in the 4th or 5th. of all the QBs in the draft his skill set most closely mirrors Peyton's, so the learning curve while steep would not require a reworking of his playing style. he is intelligent a good leader for a bad team and does have a lot of raw potential.

He's got a little talent, but he'll probably go before the 4th and will be a reach there, imo.

Rohirrim
03-22-2012, 12:02 PM
Looks like Drew Stanton may soon be available, unless of course, the Jets tell him to sit down and shut up;
http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/drew-stanton-wants-out-after-new-york-jets-trade-for-tim-tebow-032212

Kaylore
03-22-2012, 12:02 PM
The neck isn't the issue - it's the nerve damage and loss of strength that is the problem. The neck is fine. Would it still be fine if Clay Mathews pile drove it into the ground? No, but no one's would. The bone itself is stronger than it was.

However the nerve was damaged and needs to re-grow and that happens slowly. Remember Trevor Pryce? Slowly his strength will come back, but it will take time.

Rohirrim
03-22-2012, 12:04 PM
The neck isn't the issue - it's the nerve damage and loss of strength that is the problem. The neck is fine. Would it still be fine if Clay Mathews pile drove it into the ground? No, but no one's would. The bone itself is stronger than it was.

However the nerve was damaged and needs to re-grow and that happens slowly. Remember Trevor Pryce? Slowly his strength will come back, but it will take time.

Fortunately, Manning usually knows what the defense is going to do and gets rid of the ball faster than anybody I've ever seen.

Dedhed
03-22-2012, 12:06 PM
Dear god you're stupid. His "ways to go" involves his arm strength, not his neck. We've been over this multiple times and there are countless articles that discuss it. I don't have time to keep educating you and proving you wrong. Go argue with someone you may actually have a chance against: yourself. I just showed you two spinal surgeons basically saying what a moron you are, I don't know what else to tell you. Other than you're wrong.

You're not providing an education in anything other than idiocy, and you've done nothing to prove me wrong. I'm gladly admitting that the fusion site is stronger than pre-surgery, just like the Drs say. That is maybe 50% of the issue regarding his neck. The other 50% is nowhere near 100%.

Answer this honestly; Do you really think that the muscles and nerves in Manning's neck are 100%?

If you're dumb enough to answer yes to that, try answering this one honestly.

Do you really think that his arm strength issues have nothing to do with his neck not being 100%?

Dedhed
03-22-2012, 12:10 PM
The neck isn't the issue - it's the nerve damage and loss of strength that is the problem. The neck is fine. Would it still be fine if Clay Mathews pile drove it into the ground? No, but no one's would. The bone itself is stronger than it was.

However the nerve was damaged and needs to re-grow and that happens slowly. Remember Trevor Pryce? Slowly his strength will come back, but it will take time.You're correct, but lacking detail. The fusion site within the neck isn't the issue. The bones themselves are stronger than, perhaps, ever. However, the nerves and muscles are part of the neck, which is why you can't stay "The neck is fine". You can say "the neck is structurally stable" Like the Dr's have said, but his neck in it's entirety still has a long way to go.

Heyneck
03-22-2012, 12:21 PM
The neck isn't the issue - it's the nerve damage and loss of strength that is the problem. The neck is fine. Would it still be fine if Clay Mathews pile drove it into the ground? No, but no one's would. The bone itself is stronger than it was.

However the nerve was damaged and needs to re-grow and that happens slowly. Remember Trevor Pryce? Slowly his strength will come back, but it will take time.

Don't kid yourself... The neck is an issue. You know?... there is are reason it has been operated on 4 times. Right now it checks medically... so yeah it's "strong" right now. But one bad hit and he is out. This is not a matter of "if" but "when". As long as we keep him hit clean he should be back to form. The improvement on strength reports are there...he is still 6 months away... so he should be ready. My fear of that scenario is the one similar to Favre's. Will he be able to sustain a full season without going into some sort of limp arm by the end of it?

Pseudofool
03-22-2012, 12:27 PM
The other 50% is nowhere near 100%. How do you know? The burden of proof in on you. Honestly, it just sounds like you're coming up with statements like this off-the-cuff.

Dedhed
03-22-2012, 12:36 PM
How do you know? The burden of proof in on you. Honestly, it just sounds like you're coming up with statements like this off-the-cuff.

I'll take the fact that I heard it from the horse's mouth as proof enough. Manning said he has a ways to go, so he's relieved me from needing to prove anything.

TonyR
03-22-2012, 12:40 PM
How do you know? The burden of proof in on you. Honestly, it just sounds like you're coming up with statements like this off-the-cuff.

He wants so badly to be correct. We give him direct quotes from spinal surgeons which directly refute his points so then he tries to spin them and change them. It's like watching a dog chase its tail. His next argument will be that the earth is actually flat. "Well, you're correct but you're lacking details. In the places where the earth is flat, like the front range of Colorado, it's actually flat."

mwill07
03-22-2012, 12:42 PM
Um, you can forget about QBOTF while Manning is here. This is another example of people not understanding who Manning is. Backups die underneath him as he is a practice machine that takes all the reps. We are all in with Manning.

Manning has never played with a rookie drafted earlier than the 6th.

Tombstone RJ
03-22-2012, 12:43 PM
Draft Ryan Lindley with the newly acquired 4th rounder. He's got size 6'4" 235. He's got above average arm strength. The kid basically needs to sit for a year or two.

Draft Lindley and develop him.

Acquire a decent veteran backup via FA.

I kinda like going with this type of plan. That is, the Broncos should just go ahead and take a flyer on a late round QB hoping that he will develop under Manning. Best case scenario, they take a talented young guy who learns under Manning and Elway and then steps in when Manning retires.

The Broncos can always draft a high round QB or trade for one when Manning retires. However by going this route, if Manning gets injured the young guy can come in and get playing time.

mwill07
03-22-2012, 12:43 PM
It's been reported multiple times, and stated here multiple times, that Peyton Manning is no more at risk for injury than any other 36 year old player. His neck is as strong as it was prior to his injury.

fyp. the neck may be ok, but the rest of Manning's body has some years on it.

Dedhed
03-22-2012, 12:47 PM
He wants so badly to be correct. We give him direct quotes from spinal surgeons which directly refute his points so then he tries to spin them and change them. It's like watching a dog chase its tail. His next argument will be that the earth is actually flat. "Well, you're correct but you're lacking details. In the places where the earth is flat, like the front range of Colorado, it's actually flat."

None of what the surgeons have said refutes anything I've said, you're just too daft to wrap your head around that.

Everything Manning said refutes everything you're saying. You're just too daft to wrap your head around that.

If I'm wrong, Manning is 100% healthy right now.

If you're wrong, he still has a lot of strength and rehab work to do.

Let's start a poll.

Dedhed
03-22-2012, 12:49 PM
In the places where the earth is flat, like the front range of Colorado, it's actually flat."Not true. The front range is still curved, you just lack the perspective to see it. Nothing new there.

TonyR
03-22-2012, 12:50 PM
If you're wrong, he still has a lot of strength and rehab work to do.

You're changing the argument, as expected. I never said he was completely healed. What I did say is that his neck is fine, and I supported that with quotes from two spinal surgeons (which you disagreed with). It's his arm strength that's still an issue. But he did say on Monday that if the Broncos played this weekend he would play.

Tombstone RJ
03-22-2012, 12:51 PM
Um, you can forget about QBOTF while Manning is here. This is another example of people not understanding who Manning is. Backups die underneath him as he is a practice machine that takes all the reps. We are all in with Manning.

Not necessarily. Manning knows he's got a limited amount of time. How come teams like the Packers can draft good young QBs and have them sit behind great QBs like Favre and Rogers but the Broncos can't do this?

I say draft a kid but don't spend an high draft pick on him. Draft him rough around the edges and then let him develop. Worse case scenario is Manning is magically healthy longer than 4 years and at that point and time you trade the young QB for picks.

Drek
03-22-2012, 12:53 PM
Fortunately, Manning usually knows what the defense is going to do and gets rid of the ball faster than anybody I've ever seen.

Oh, so Peyton Manning doesn't take hits? Cool. Looking forward to our first zero sacks allowed season.

The neck isn't the issue - it's the nerve damage and loss of strength that is the problem. The neck is fine. Would it still be fine if Clay Mathews pile drove it into the ground? No, but no one's would. The bone itself is stronger than it was.

However the nerve was damaged and needs to re-grow and that happens slowly. Remember Trevor Pryce? Slowly his strength will come back, but it will take time.
Here is the real problem. The fusion isn't the risk here. The nerve health is. Will he ever get back to 100%? How about 90%? 80%? What level of strength does Manning need to be a quality QB in the NFL? Those are all very serious risks.

He also is now obviously still at significant risk of additional spinal damage. The fusion will be stronger, but the surrounding area it isn't, he has had noted loss in muscle strength, and has had multiple surgeries on the area. Anyone thinking his spinal health will ever be back to 100% are fooling themselves. He's a perpetual risk for additional damage there.

This leads me to my opinion on the thread title: We just shipped our ideal backup out of town. Its debatable that any QB in the league can run Manning's style of offense but Manning. Its obvious that no player who hasn't had significant time to develop in it will be able to do so. So what are we going to do about our backup situation in 2012? Grab the next Curtis Painter, i.e lamb to the slaughter when asked to work within Manning's system.

What we SHOULD have done was to keep Tebow. You lose Manning you revert to the Tebow offense that much of the team already knows and that you know wins games over short stretches. Meanwhile Tebow develops and is a red zone weapon you can use to protect Manning in games.

Instead we shipped him out of town because Elway and co. never wanted him here and is completely unwilling to work with him. Now our backup is Adam Weber and we're likely going to spend more value than we received for Tebow to acquire an inferior replacement.

So the real backup/QBOTF option? Cross your fingers and pray Manning actually plays the next five years straight at a high level. Otherwise you probably aren't going to enjoy the alternatives.

Dedhed
03-22-2012, 12:55 PM
You're changing the argument, as expected. I never said he was completely healed. What I did say is that his neck is fine, and I supported that with quotes from two spinal surgeons (which you disagreed with). It's his arm strength that's still an issue. But he did say on Monday that if the Broncos played this weekend he would play.

You do understand that the arm strength is entirely related to the nerve damage in the neck, right? You know where the nerves that lead to the arm come from, right? You, maybe, now are beginning to see that any reason for Manning currently being less than 100% is because of his neck, right?

I'm not changing anything, you're just finally started to grasp the concept of what I've been saying all along, so it seems like a whole new world to you.

Tombstone RJ
03-22-2012, 12:58 PM
Also, people forget that NE drafted a guy by the name of Mallet because he fell into their lap. Manning should have no problem if the same thing happens with the Broncos, that is, a good young QB (too good to pass up) falls into the Broncos lap come draft day.

Tombstone RJ
03-22-2012, 01:03 PM
Oh, so Peyton Manning doesn't take hits? Cool. Looking forward to our first zero sacks allowed season.


Here is the real problem. The fusion isn't the risk here. The nerve health is. Will he ever get back to 100%? How about 90%? 80%? What level of strength does Manning need to be a quality QB in the NFL? Those are all very serious risks.

He also is now obviously still at significant risk of additional spinal damage. The fusion will be stronger, but the surrounding area it isn't, he has had noted loss in muscle strength, and has had multiple surgeries on the area. Anyone thinking his spinal health will ever be back to 100% are fooling themselves. He's a perpetual risk for additional damage there.

This leads me to my opinion on the thread title: We just shipped our ideal backup out of town. Its debatable that any QB in the league can run Manning's style of offense but Manning. Its obvious that no player who hasn't had significant time to develop in it will be able to do so. So what are we going to do about our backup situation in 2012? Grab the next Curtis Painter, i.e lamb to the slaughter when asked to work within Manning's system.

What we SHOULD have done was to keep Tebow. You lose Manning you revert to the Tebow offense that much of the team already knows and that you know wins games over short stretches. Meanwhile Tebow develops and is a red zone weapon you can use to protect Manning in games.

Instead we shipped him out of town because Elway and co. never wanted him here and is completely unwilling to work with him. Now our backup is Adam Weber and we're likely going to spend more value than we received for Tebow to acquire an inferior replacement.

So the real backup/QBOTF option? Cross your fingers and pray Manning actually plays the next five years straight at a high level. Otherwise you probably aren't going to enjoy the alternatives.

I think Tebow wanted out. The Broncos did the best thing for Tebow and gave him a chance with another team.

I firmly believe the Broncos can draft another QB who is better than Tebow and groom him for the future. I love TT, but let's be honest here, we were all hoping he'd pan out and no one can honestly say that Tebow will indeed be the next Steve Young.

mwill07
03-22-2012, 01:06 PM
I don't think drafting a QB late is worth it. Odds of hitting on that pick are really, really low, relative to, say, OL/DL help.

In no particular order, here are (arguably) the top 20 QB's in the league - you'd presumably want your QBotF to be a top 20 guy.

Brees: round 2,32 overall
Stafford: round 1,1 overall
Brady: round 6,199 overall
Rivers: round 1,4 overall
Eli Manning: round 1,1 overall
Fitzpatrick: round 7,250 overall
Ryan: round 1,3 overall
Freeman: round 1,17 overall
Romo: undrafted
Rodgers: round 1,24 overall
Newton: round 1,1 overall
Roethlisberger: round 1,11 overall
Schaub: round 3,90 overall
Dalton: round 2,35 overall
Vick: round 1,1 overall
cutler: round 1,11 overall
hasselbeck: round 6,187 overall
alex smith: round 1,1 overall
palmer: round 1,1 overall
Peyton Manning: round 1,1 overall

broken down by round:
1st 13
2nd 2
3rd 1
4th 0
5th 0
6th 2
7+ 2

yes, there are a couple late round guys in Hasselbeck, Brady, Fitzpatrick, and Romo. However, by a large margin, you get your QBotF in the first.

i'm sorry, that's the way it is. Drafting a QB outside 1 is drafting for back-up only.

eta: 9 of the top 20 QB's in the league were drafted within the first 5 spots.

BroncoBen
03-22-2012, 01:08 PM
Given the length of Manning's contract, our QBOTF is probably in high school right now

:thumbs: No Kidding... or at least a freshman in College right now... let us hope that Manning can play the whole 5 years.

edog24
03-22-2012, 01:10 PM
I don't think drafting a QB late is worth it. Odds of hitting on that pick are really, really low, relative to, say, OL/DL help.

In no particular order, here are (arguably) the top 20 QB's in the league - you'd presumably want your QBotF to be a top 20 guy.

Brees: round 2,32 overall
Stafford: round 1,1 overall
Brady: round 6,199 overall
Rivers: round 1,4 overall
Eli Manning: round 1,1 overall
Fitzpatrick: round 7,250 overall
Ryan: round 1,3 overall
Freeman: round 1,17 overall
Romo: undrafted
Rodgers: round 1,24 overall
Newton: round 1,1 overall
Roethlisberger: round 1,11 overall
Schaub: round 3,90 overall
Dalton: round 2,35 overall
Vick: round 1,1 overall
cutler: round 1,11 overall
hasselbeck: round 6,187 overall
alex smith: round 1,1 overall
palmer: round 1,1 overall
Peyton Manning: round 1,1 overall

broken down by round:
1st 13
2nd 2
3rd 1
4th 0
5th 0
6th 2
7+ 2

yes, there are a couple late round guys in Hasselbeck, Brady, Fitzpatrick, and Romo. However, by a large margin, you get your QBotF in the first.

i'm sorry, that's the way it is. Drafting a QB outside 1 is drafting for back-up only.

eta: 9 of the top 20 QB's in the league were drafted within the first 5 spots.

Agree, I think we need sign whoever is cheap and serviceable, wait this season out and cross our fingers we don't need to use a backup qb this year. Who knows what will be available next year or after.

bendog
03-22-2012, 01:10 PM
I don't see the rational for using any draft ammo on a qb. Maybe there's a tebow hangover. They got Henne to be the #2.

It's a three year window with Peyton. Build the best team they can. After three years, if the team is good, they can trade three ones for a rookie.

But we all should know that Elway and Fox want a qb who can make all the throws from all the drops, be a good ball handler in handing off/pitching and making fakes. They don't seem to rate athleticism necessarily as high as Shanny did, which is sort of interesting.

Tombstone RJ
03-22-2012, 01:16 PM
I don't think drafting a QB late is worth it. Odds of hitting on that pick are really, really low, relative to, say, OL/DL help.

In no particular order, here are (arguably) the top 20 QB's in the league - you'd presumably want your QBotF to be a top 20 guy.

Brees: round 2,32 overall
Stafford: round 1,1 overall
Brady: round 6,199 overall
Rivers: round 1,4 overall
Eli Manning: round 1,1 overall
Fitzpatrick: round 7,250 overall
Ryan: round 1,3 overall
Freeman: round 1,17 overall
Romo: undrafted
Rodgers: round 1,24 overall
Newton: round 1,1 overall
Roethlisberger: round 1,11 overall
Schaub: round 3,90 overall
Dalton: round 2,35 overall
Vick: round 1,1 overall
cutler: round 1,11 overall
hasselbeck: round 6,187 overall
alex smith: round 1,1 overall
palmer: round 1,1 overall
Peyton Manning: round 1,1 overall

broken down by round:
1st 13
2nd 2
3rd 1
4th 0
5th 0
6th 2
7+ 2

yes, there are a couple late round guys in Hasselbeck, Brady, Fitzpatrick, and Romo. However, by a large margin, you get your QBotF in the first.

i'm sorry, that's the way it is. Drafting a QB outside 1 is drafting for back-up only.

eta: 9 of the top 20 QB's in the league were drafted within the first 5 spots.

If you have the time to develop a young QB then there's little to no risk in drafting a QB in the later rounds. Again, worse case scenario you draft a 1st round QB after Manning retires, but that's still a risk too.

TonyR
03-22-2012, 01:16 PM
I'm not changing anything...

Yes, you are. It's what you always do when proven wrong rather than manning up and admitting defeat. Click the link below and refresh your memory on where this started, and then follow your trail of failure from there.

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showpost.php?p=3532828&postcount=52

mwill07
03-22-2012, 01:21 PM
If you have the time to develop a young QB then there's little to no risk in drafting a QB in the later rounds. Again, worse case scenario you draft a 1st round QB after Manning retires, but that's still a risk too.

there's little to no risk because there's little to no reward. There's no point - just accept the fact that you probably won't find a QBotF outside the first, it doesn't matter how much time you give him to develop.

If you want to develop a late round guy into a mediocre QB, great...that's what you will get. I think that EFX has made it clear tha mediocracy at the QB position will not be acceptable here, and therefore any late round pick will be a waste.

Dedhed
03-22-2012, 01:30 PM
Yes, you are. It's what you always do when proven wrong rather than manning up and admitting defeat. Click the link below and refresh your memory on where this started, and then follow your trail of failure from there.

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showpost.php?p=3532828&postcount=52
Keep whining, bro. You have no leg to stand on. You're flat out wrong. Manning isn't 100%, and his neck is the reason. Fap all you want, nothing will change in that regard.

bendog
03-22-2012, 01:33 PM
Keep whining, bro. You have no leg to stand on. You're flat out wrong. Manning isn't 100%, and his neck is the reason. Fap all you want, nothing will change in that regard.

So, you're against this move because his neck might break again? That's it. Nothing about Teebs being a better qb over the long haul?

Dedhed
03-22-2012, 01:34 PM
So, you're against this move because his neck might break again? That's it. Nothing about Teebs being a better qb over the long haul?
Where did I say anything about being against the move?

bendog
03-22-2012, 01:36 PM
Where did I say anything about being against the move?

oh, ok. So, you're just arguing over the neck thing. (backing slowly away)

Drek
03-22-2012, 01:38 PM
So, you're against this move because his neck might break again? That's it. Nothing about Teebs being a better qb over the long haul?

The problem isn't that his neck might break again. The problem is that he might never be 100% again. That he might not even be 90% ever again. And that he also isn't now suddenly less likely to suffer similar nerve damage if he takes a few serious hits next year.

Again, the bone isn't the problem. That was never the problem. The nerve damage to his spine was the problem and still is the problem. He is still a significant risk, both his health and his ability to play the game.

BroncoBeavis
03-22-2012, 01:39 PM
I think Tebow wanted out. The Broncos did the best thing for Tebow and gave him a chance with another team.

I firmly believe the Broncos can draft another QB who is better than Tebow and groom him for the future. I love TT, but let's be honest here, we were all hoping he'd pan out and no one can honestly say that Tebow will indeed be the next Steve Young.

Tebow may have wanted out, but that's an irrelevant point since the team was shopping him before they even started talking to Manning.

If Tebow wanted to stay or go didn't matter, because Honest John wanted him gone regardless.

bendog
03-22-2012, 01:40 PM
The problem isn't that his neck might break again. The problem is that he might never be 100% again. That he might not even be 90% ever again. And that he also isn't now suddenly less likely to suffer similar nerve damage if he takes a few serious hits next year.

Again, the bone isn't the problem. That was never the problem. The nerve damage to his spine was the problem and still is the problem. He is still a significant risk, both his health and his ability to play the game.

So what? The contract protects the team capwise.

Dedhed
03-22-2012, 01:42 PM
oh, ok. So, you're just arguing over the neck thing. (backing slowly away)

I'm not backing anywhere. I'm merely pointing out that Tony is a tard for saying that the neck is fine.

Bmore Manning
03-22-2012, 01:42 PM
If Peyton gets hurt, big if, we are talking about a player who played for multiple years with this injury and was on pace to break Brett Favres record of consecutive games started. He is at no more risk than any other QB or player for that matter. Any pick of a QB with Peyton on the roster with the wholes at DT, S, CB, and LB would be a wasted pick. Peyton doesn't share snaps or reps, and if he were to get hurt you would want a good draft pick not a compitent back up to lead this team to mediocrity.

Tombstone RJ
03-22-2012, 01:43 PM
there's little to no risk because there's little to no reward. There's no point - just accept the fact that you probably won't find a QBotF outside the first, it doesn't matter how much time you give him to develop.

If you want to develop a late round guy into a mediocre QB, great...that's what you will get. I think that EFX has made it clear tha mediocracy at the QB position will not be acceptable here, and therefore any late round pick will be a waste.

What's the failure rate of 1st round QBs again? There's always risks drafting a QB, there's just less risk in the later rounds. Again, I think you take an extremely rough QB with a lot of upside. A guy like RG3 before RG3 became all the rage. If he doesn't pan out, who cares?

BroncoBeavis
03-22-2012, 01:43 PM
So what? The contract protects the team capwise.

In reality, only through year 1. If he makes it through this year, we're pretty much up a creek through year 3 if he gets hurt.

Dedhed
03-22-2012, 01:43 PM
The problem isn't that his neck might break again. The problem is that he might never be 100% again. That he might not even be 90% ever again. And that he also isn't now suddenly less likely to suffer similar nerve damage if he takes a few serious hits next year.

Again, the bone isn't the problem. That was never the problem. The nerve damage to his spine was the problem and still is the problem. He is still a significant risk, both his health and his ability to play the game.

Exactly. It's really not that difficult to understand folks.

BroncoBeavis
03-22-2012, 01:44 PM
If Peyton gets hurt, big if, we are talking about a player who played for multiple years with this injury and was on pace to break Brett Favres record of consecutive games started. He is at no more risk than any other QB or player for that matter. Any pick of a QB with Peyton on the roster with the wholes at DT, S, CB, and LB would be a wasted pick. Peyton doesn't share snaps or reps, and if he were to get hurt you would want a good draft pick not a compitent back up to lead this team to mediocrity.

So he hadn't missed any games until he missed 16 in a row (and has yet to play one since)

Not very reassuring. But as everyone will tell you, I'm a dirty t-boner. :)

bendog
03-22-2012, 01:45 PM
I'm not backing anywhere. I'm merely pointing out that Tony is a tard for saying that the neck is fine.

I was backing away from you and the argument. Given the structure of the contract, the team is pretty well protected. It seems a non-issue in terms of the broncos as a franchise in cap and real dollar terms.

Drunken.Broncoholic
03-22-2012, 01:45 PM
Yes, you are. It's what you always do when proven wrong rather than manning up and admitting defeat. Click the link below and refresh your memory on where this started, and then follow your trail of failure from there.

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showpost.php?p=3532828&postcount=52

Manning up? Nice. Old slang...new meaning?

Dedhed
03-22-2012, 01:45 PM
If Peyton gets hurt, big if, we are talking about a player who played for multiple years with this injury and was on pace to break Brett Favres record of consecutive games started. He is at no more risk than any other QB or player for that matter.

This assumes that he'll ever get to 100%. There are no guarantees in that regard, so let's start there before we talk about re-injury being the risk.

Tombstone RJ
03-22-2012, 01:45 PM
Tebow may have wanted out, but that's an irrelevant point since the team was shopping him before they even started talking to Manning.

If Tebow wanted to stay or go didn't matter, because Honest John wanted him gone regardless.

I'm not saying you are wrong, but do you have any proof of this?

Dedhed
03-22-2012, 01:46 PM
I was backing away from you and the argument.AHhh, well played you. I have no issues with the move even though I think it comes with substantial risk.

Drunken.Broncoholic
03-22-2012, 01:46 PM
When did Mannings neck ever break the first time?

Drek
03-22-2012, 01:49 PM
So what? The contract protects the team capwise.

Oh, I didn't realize that we could use our cap savings to buy wins directly. I thought we needed a quarterback to do that.

BroncoBeavis
03-22-2012, 01:49 PM
I'm not saying you are wrong, but do you have any proof of this?

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/Peyton-Manning-working-deal-with-Denver-Broncos-031912

Asked how Manning looked when he threw the ball for the Broncos' staff, Fox told Glazer that Manning still has some work ahead of him in terms of strengthening and conditioning his arm. But Fox also told Glazer that Manning could play today if he had to.

And what about Tim Tebow? Sources told Glazer the Broncos were quietly shopping their one-time starter as early as the NFL Scouting Combine in late Feb, trying to gauge interest around the league..

Drek
03-22-2012, 01:50 PM
When did Mannings neck ever break the first time?

Shortly into his first spinal surgery when the surgeon had to go through the bone to work on the damaged nerves in his spine.

bendog
03-22-2012, 01:52 PM
Oh, I didn't realize that we could use our cap savings to buy wins directly. I thought we needed a quarterback to do that.

OK, so you envision Teebs as a championship caliber quarterback? At best he seems to me to be a bigger project than Tannehill who Den could have taken this year with the ones from 12 and next year. Again, I'm trying to see your pov, but I just don't see the risk in this UNLESS your bottom line is you really think Teebs is the qbof.

Drek
03-22-2012, 02:02 PM
OK, so you envision Teebs as a championship caliber quarterback? At best he seems to me to be a bigger project than Tannehill who Den could have taken this year with the ones from 12 and next year. Again, I'm trying to see your pov, but I just don't see the risk in this UNLESS your bottom line is you really think Teebs is the qbof.

1. It is entirely possible that given a couple more years of development Tebow could be our QBOTF.

2. Even if he isn't, lets play out a scenario when our #2 QB matters over the next 3-5 years:

Manning gets hurt, can't play from weeks 9-12 which includes the bye week, so three games. The team is currently 5-3, leading the division by one game. We turn to his backup. Now what backup would you prefer?

Option 1 - Random young guy we're "grooming" in Peyton Manning's passing offense. By grooming I mean getting zero practice reps because those are all Manning's. We saw how this works with Indy last year.

Option 2 - Tim Tebow, reverting the offense back to the spread option of this past season, but gradually incorporating more passing as Tebow improves.

Which of those two options gives you the best chance to hold onto the division lead? How about extend that lead?

We just watched Indy in 2011 go through a musical chairs of QBs, a couple of whom had been in their system for several years, wash out with a roster that Manning had in the Super Bowl not too long before.

My point is this, in a nut shell: In what world are we going to find a QB with the ability to win games over the short term and at the same time offer long term starter potential like Tebow? To further that point, where will we find one of those guys for less than a 4th round pick?

I don't have an answer to that question. I don't think anyone does. Hence why we lost value by moving Tebow, weakening just how significant an addition Manning was. His salary is insured from loss, in what way is his performance insured from similar loss?

lolcopter
03-22-2012, 02:04 PM
I'm on the osweiler wagon

kappys
03-22-2012, 02:10 PM
1. It is entirely possible that given a couple more years of development Tebow could be our QBOTF.

2. Even if he isn't, lets play out a scenario when our #2 QB matters over the next 3-5 years:

Manning gets hurt, can't play from weeks 9-12 which includes the bye week, so three games. The team is currently 5-3, leading the division by one game. We turn to his backup. Now what backup would you prefer?

Option 1 - Random young guy we're "grooming" in Peyton Manning's passing offense. By grooming I mean getting zero practice reps because those are all Manning's. We saw how this works with Indy last year.

Option 2 - Tim Tebow, reverting the offense back to the spread option of this past season, but gradually incorporating more passing as Tebow improves.

Which of those two options gives you the best chance to hold onto the division lead? How about extend that lead?

We just watched Indy in 2011 go through a musical chairs of QBs, a couple of whom had been in their system for several years, wash out with a roster that Manning had in the Super Bowl not too long before.

My point is this, in a nut shell: In what world are we going to find a QB with the ability to win games over the short term and at the same time offer long term starter potential like Tebow? To further that point, where will we find one of those guys for less than a 4th round pick?

I don't have an answer to that question. I don't think anyone does. Hence why we lost value by moving Tebow, weakening just how significant an addition Manning was. His salary is insured from loss, in what way is his performance insured from similar loss?

Tebow is pretty cheap this year, then I think $6 mill and some change followed by $7 mill and some change. All this for a backup who would then command a multi-year contract and probably not see the field(I am hoping for 3 good years from Manning). The time to start grooming a back up is next season - this year we need a solid vet.

bendog
03-22-2012, 02:15 PM
1. It is entirely possible that given a couple more years of development Tebow could be our QBOTF.

2. Even if he isn't, lets play out a scenario when our #2 QB matters over the next 3-5 years:

Manning gets hurt, can't play from weeks 9-12 which includes the bye week, so three games. The team is currently 5-3, leading the division by one game. We turn to his backup. Now what backup would you prefer?

Option 1 - Random young guy we're "grooming" in Peyton Manning's passing offense. By grooming I mean getting zero practice reps because those are all Manning's. We saw how this works with Indy last year.

Option 2 - Tim Tebow, reverting the offense back to the spread option of this past season, but gradually incorporating more passing as Tebow improves.

Which of those two options gives you the best chance to hold onto the division lead? How about extend that lead?

We just watched Indy in 2011 go through a musical chairs of QBs, a couple of whom had been in their system for several years, wash out with a roster that Manning had in the Super Bowl not too long before.

My point is this, in a nut shell: In what world are we going to find a QB with the ability to win games over the short term and at the same time offer long term starter potential like Tebow? To further that point, where will we find one of those guys for less than a 4th round pick?

I don't have an answer to that question. I don't think anyone does. Hence why we lost value by moving Tebow, weakening just how significant an addition Manning was. His salary is insured from loss, in what way is his performance insured from similar loss?

Ok, I see where you're going. I honestly don't know if EFX thought Tebow could back up Manning, given that Tebow cannot run a cerebral multi-tree tree pass pattern offense that's Manning's staple. I'm pretty sure they didn't want to have Tebowmania around with Manning as the qb.

We probably disagree as to whether Tebow could have had much success next year trying to run the wildcat thing after the League had seen it. IMo, it was exposed, and Tebow was going to have to be a much better passer to have success. Given the schedule I figured 6-10 was probably the upside, and if Teebs hadn't made a lot of progress 4-12 was certainly dooable. But I was ok with that because I think 2013 will be a stellar draft year for qbs.

I think a guy like Henne is about the best we can hope for as a backup. He's not gonna win any games, but he can complete 60% of his passes in a pro-style offense. Elway wasn't starting 19 games late in his career. If the team can stay at .500 w/o Manning, they could be ok.

But again I just don't see the risk either W/L or longterm. Manning gives the team a better chance to win games over the short term. If Manning goes seriously down, the team should be in position to move into the top half of the draft and draft a qbof. If Manning has three great years, and then we have a crap qb for a year, the team should be in great position to move into the first half of the draft in 2018 and draft a qbof.

Tombstone RJ
03-22-2012, 02:16 PM
http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/Peyton-Manning-working-deal-with-Denver-Broncos-031912

Ah yes, the old Glazer reference... not substantiated, just a rumor.

TonyR
03-22-2012, 03:45 PM
I'm not backing anywhere. I'm merely pointing out that Tony is a tard for saying that the neck is fine.

Sigh. You are a profoundly ponderous person. Such a gasbag. Let's replay what went down here.

I said this:
It's been reported multiple times, and stated here multiple times, that Peyton Manning is no more at risk for injury than any other player. His neck is as strong as it was prior to his injury.

To which you stupidly replied this:
Not even close.

I supported my statement with this (a spine surgeon specifically backing up what I said):
There is a risk of "adjacent segment degeneration", but this is more a "condition" than it is an "injury". More info in the article linked here:

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/story/2012-03-08/doctors-upbeat-on-manning-health/53424974/1

[I]Wellington K. Hsu, a spine surgeon and assistant professor at Northwestern University, says the fused area should not be vulnerable. "In fact, his neck is probably stronger now than it was before the surgery because he has a solid, bony fusion," Hsu said.

Rick Sasso, an Indianapolis spine surgeon who, like Hsu, was not involved in Manning's treatment, agrees. "As long as the fusion was solid, that segment is very protected," he said.

You supported your statement with...nothing. And then you changed the argument.

Very similar to how I destroyed you here:

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?p=3469947#post3469947

BroncoBeavis
03-22-2012, 04:00 PM
Sigh. You are a profoundly ponderous person. Such a gasbag. Let's replay what went down here.

I said this:


To which you stupidly replied this:


I supported my statement with this (a spine surgeon specifically backing up what I said):


You supported your statement with...nothing. And then you changed the argument.

Very similar to how I destroyed you here:

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?p=3469947#post3469947

While you're destroying people, please go back and read the article you linked.

Both say that doesn't preclude Manning having a disk problem in another level of his spine. "That has been known to occur. That is called adjacent segment degeneration," Hsu said.

Dedhed
03-22-2012, 04:02 PM
Sigh. You are a profoundly ponderous person. Such a gasbag. Let's replay what went down here.

I said this:


To which you stupidly replied this:


I supported my statement with this (a spine surgeon specifically backing up what I said):


You supported your statement with...nothing. And then you changed the argument.

Very similar to how I destroyed you here:

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?p=3469947#post3469947
I'm just going to have to accept that you're too dimwitted to even begin to explain this to.

elsid13
03-22-2012, 04:09 PM
If Tannehill somehow falls into their lap at 25 then you have to make a serious decision if you pick him as Denver QBToF or trade back. If he not there, then I recommend go after someone like B.J. Coleman late.

Drek
03-22-2012, 05:53 PM
Ok, I see where you're going. I honestly don't know if EFX thought Tebow could back up Manning, given that Tebow cannot run a cerebral multi-tree tree pass pattern offense that's Manning's staple. I'm pretty sure they didn't want to have Tebowmania around with Manning as the qb.
What other QB can run Manning' staple offense? I wouldn't expect Tom Brady or Drew Brees to be able to run that offense without significant growing pains. No QB in recent history has ever ran anything like it. So picking our packup by who will fail less in Manning's offense is entirely teh wrong way to go.

And how is there any real issue with Tebowmania if Manning is your QB? Do you really think Bronco fans will be calling for Tebow if Manning is healthy enough to play? Thats pure fantasy. No one argues that a healthy Manning is a massive leap forward. But what if you don't have a healthy Manning and still need to find a way to win games?

We probably disagree as to whether Tebow could have had much success next year trying to run the wildcat thing after the League had seen it. IMo, it was exposed, and Tebow was going to have to be a much better passer to have success. Given the schedule I figured 6-10 was probably the upside, and if Teebs hadn't made a lot of progress 4-12 was certainly dooable. But I was ok with that because I think 2013 will be a stellar draft year for qbs.
He's already shown improvement as a passer and has shown that in single game samples he can be a very effective passer. So if we're talking about getting by for a few games without Manning he's still a great option, full on wild cat offense or not.

I think a guy like Henne is about the best we can hope for as a backup. He's not gonna win any games, but he can complete 60% of his passes in a pro-style offense. Elway wasn't starting 19 games late in his career. If the team can stay at .500 w/o Manning, they could be ok.
1. Henne already signed with the Jags.

2. What do we care about completion percentage if he can't help us win games?

3. How do we stay at .500 without Manning if we're going to put up some scrub QB trying to run Manning's system? That's a bad bet.

But again I just don't see the risk either W/L or longterm. Manning gives the team a better chance to win games over the short term. If Manning goes seriously down, the team should be in position to move into the top half of the draft and draft a qbof. If Manning has three great years, and then we have a crap qb for a year, the team should be in great position to move into the first half of the draft in 2018 and draft a qbof.
Sure, but this entire valuation hinges on a belief that Tebow has no chance to be a good passing QB, which is far from a sure thing. We might have already had the guy and we gave him up for very little simply out of an unwillingness to manage the associated media conversation. Pretty damn weak.

schaaf
03-22-2012, 06:02 PM
I know Osweiler personally from high school... I am hoping to god we don't draft him

ColoradoDarin
03-22-2012, 06:04 PM
I know Osweiler personally from high school... I am hoping to god we don't draft him

Now this sounds good. Details!

KipCorrington25
03-22-2012, 06:05 PM
The QB of the future is some guy that won't be a rookie for 3 or 4 years becasue you can't really expect to have some guy come in a sit for 4 or 5 years and get no reps. Once Manning is near the end then you start looking to develop someone. Sorgi and Painter never developed **** holding a clip board for years.

Aftermath
03-22-2012, 06:06 PM
Exactly what I'm hoping. No reason to spend earlier than that on a guy who is going to sit behind Manning. Lindley would be a great developmental QB. If we do go early, I like Cousins. Smart, cerebral and a solid football player.

I really hope your joking... If we draft a QB early, you want Cousins? I wouldn't take him with a 7th rounder.

Broncobiv
03-22-2012, 06:26 PM
Osweiler can bite me. I don't want any Sun Devil scum leading my beloved team. Plummer was bad enough, but since we didn't actually draft him, I didn't mind so much.

Broncobiv
03-22-2012, 06:30 PM
On a semi-related note, what is the point of even having a guy like Weber on the team? He's never seen a snap, and when people talk about the future of the position, his name isn't even mentioned. I mean, we're talking about signing backups from other teams and drafting guys in the 5th round+ to immediately leap-frog over Weber. So honestly, what is the point in having him on the roster?

elsid13
03-22-2012, 06:30 PM
On a semi-related note, what is the point of even having a guy like Weber on the team? He's never seen a snap, and when people talk about the future of the position, his name isn't even mentioned. I mean, we're talking about signing backups from other teams and drafting guys in the 5th round+ to immediately leap-frog over Weber. So honestly, what is the point in having him on the roster?

For training camp use and abuse.

schaaf
03-22-2012, 07:14 PM
Now this sounds good. Details!

Athletically he can do it all. Stands 6'7 and has a rocket arm. His problem is all his issues are in his head, maturity problems, lack of work ethic, and attitude towards the game. You won't find one person who's played with him or knows him who will say he is ready for the NFL, he is at least 2 years out. I don't mean to bash too much since he's from Montana and all but for knowing him And his ways, I will be pissed if we draft him. Ryan leaf? Cough cough haha

yerner
03-22-2012, 07:18 PM
Osweiler can bite me. I don't want any Sun Devil scum leading my beloved team. Plummer was bad enough, but since we didn't actually draft him, I didn't mind so much.

Right on. ASU football is really just a gay porn audition.

Dedhed
03-22-2012, 07:51 PM
People who take alumni status into account when discussing prospects are annoying. Get over it people.