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View Full Version : Woody: Manning chase was Fox's suggestion


TonyR
03-17-2012, 08:26 AM
According to a trustworthy source, when team officials watched the tearful news conference announcing that Manning was being released by the Colts, Fox stood and strongly suggested that the Broncos go full footballs-out for him. After considering the potential ramifications and having a discussion with owner Pat Bowlen, Elway agreed.

Fox broke his public silence Thursday evening and told me: "Sometimes you have to be willing to take big risks in life."


Read more: Woody Paige: Broncos' brass still in pursuit of Peyton Manning - The Denver Post http://www.denverpost.com/paige/ci_20194610/broncos-brass-still-pursuit-peyton-manning#ixzz1pNsrUkKJ
Read The Denver Post's Terms of Use of its content: http://www.denverpost.com/termsofuse

barryr
03-17-2012, 08:30 AM
And Fox was supposedly the one guy who believed in Tebow the most. Tebow is so gone no matter what happens with Manning.

spdirty
03-17-2012, 08:38 AM
I call bull****. They couldn't have just decided to go after Manning after seeing the presser. I have to believe this chase has been planned and talked about within the organization since the end of last season.

rbackfactory80
03-17-2012, 08:40 AM
I bet Fox had to twist Elway's arm lol.

barryr
03-17-2012, 08:41 AM
I call bull****. They couldn't have just decided to go after Manning after seeing the presser. I have to believe this chase has been planned and talked about within the organization since the end of last season.

True, I don't think it would have been hard to convince Elway anyway since I don't think he ever believed in Tebow since he inherited him.

cmhargrove
03-17-2012, 08:41 AM
And Fox was supposedly the one guy who believed in Tebow the most. Tebow is so gone no matter what happens with Manning.

People keep jumping to this conclusion. I'm not naive here, but as long as all the cards are above the table, I think its not hard to explain why you went all out for a HOF QB that might still have some tread on his tires. Tim is a mature kid, and I think he understands the business as well.

If Denver doesn't sign Manning, Tebow's best chance in the NFL is to stay and win our starting job, even if he moves on in the next year or two. You won't help your career if you jump ship (because of hurt feelings) and sit on the bench for a new team. He is slotted to be our starter if there is no Manning. Even Tim and his agent know that is his best case scanario next year.

CEH
03-17-2012, 08:42 AM
I call bull****. They couldn't have just decided to go after Manning after seeing the presser. I have to believe this chase has been planned and talked about within the organization since the end of last season.

Exactly you build Plan A and Plan B. Plan A is all in on Manning. PLan B is a normal offseason. You can build that in November when Indy is 0-12 and Manning is not coming back and due $28 MM . All this was fact in November

Woody is an idiot

TheReverend
03-17-2012, 08:51 AM
These guys LOVE throwing each under the bus in regards to Tebow lol

barryr
03-17-2012, 08:54 AM
People keep jumping to this conclusion. I'm not naive here, but as long as all the cards are above the table, I think its not hard to explain why you went all out for a HOF QB that might still have some tread on his tires. Tim is a mature kid, and I think he understands the business as well.

If Denver doesn't sign Manning, Tebow's best chance in the NFL is to stay and win our starting job, even if he moves on in the next year or two. You won't help your career if you jump ship (because of hurt feelings) and sit on the bench for a new team. He is slotted to be our starter if there is no Manning. Even Tim and his agent know that is his best case scanario next year.

I just don't agree. The Broncos going after Manning shows they do not believe in him. The only teams who really went after Manning were ones who at least have the appearance of having questions at QB.

I will state once again like I have other times. If they had simply told Tebow you are the starter going into TC and they brought in a drafted rookie and some vet to compete and Tebow got beat, so be it. He would have had his chance to win the job outright, but failed.

Instead they would have signed Manning, who would not agree to come to the Broncos to "compete" for a job, much less the Broncos giving huge money for "competition." He would have the job and Tebow would have lost his chance to really compete for the job before even the draft.

Add Tebow felt slighted about not being the starter going into last season and now this. People can say how they think he should feel, but any normal person could see the writing on the wall here.

Tebow is not the guy they drafted and history shows, just as with coaches, if a new coach and GM take over a team and they do not have an already established QB on the roster, rarely do any of the current QB's stay very long. They would wait for their own QB to develop, but not one they didn't draft or sign.

And how Tebow, if Manning signs elsewhere, could believe it if the Broncos told him they do believe in him is hard to fathom. Their actions show otherwise.

Some say, well it is Manning they went after, so he will understand. Sure, he will understand that they don't think they can win with him and don't even want to bother to see him win or lose the job in TC.

Trust can be a fragile thing and the quickest way for a coach or FO to lose players is when they can't be trusted and right now, I don't see how Tebow can believe what they tell him anymore.

And again, people can believe what Tebow should feel, but nobody likes feeling they have been lied to. We can argue all day whether you feel Tebow was lied to or shouldn't feel this or that, but he is human and one can easily see how he could see it that way.

But no, I am not saying the Broncos are necessarily wrong. If they do not believe in Tebow, then they should be looking for a new starting QB. But because of how this is played out, I just believe they need a new one even if Manning signs someplace else since Tebow would just feel he is on borrowed time and the patience for him to develop would not be that high.

TonyR
03-17-2012, 08:55 AM
Also noted in the article:

The Broncos, considered favorites last weekend, apparently are third this weekend.

Read more: Woody Paige: Broncos' brass still in pursuit of Peyton Manning - The Denver Post http://www.denverpost.com/paige/ci_20194610/broncos-brass-still-pursuit-peyton-manning#ixzz1pO04AFZu
Read The Denver Post's Terms of Use of its content: http://www.denverpost.com/termsofuse

BroncoBeavis
03-17-2012, 09:01 AM
Exactly you build Plan A and Plan B. Plan A is all in on Manning. PLan B is a normal offseason. You can build that in November when Indy is 0-12 and Manning is not coming back and due $28 MM . All this was fact in November

Woody is an idiot

Either Woody's an idiot or EFX are.

cmhargrove
03-17-2012, 09:02 AM
I just don't agree. The Broncos going after Manning shows they do not believe in him. The only teams who really went after Manning were ones who at least have the appearance of having questions at QB.

I will state once again like I have other times. If they had simply told Tebow you are the starter going into TC and they brought in a drafted rookie and some vet to compete and Tebow got beat, so be it. He would have had his chance to win the job outright, but failed.

Instead they would have signed Manning, who would not agree to come to the Broncos to "compete" for a job, much less the Broncos giving huge money for "competition." He would have the job and Tebow would have lost his chance to really compete for the job before even the draft.

Add Tebow felt slighted about not being the starter going into last season and now this. People can say how they think he should feel, but any normal person could see the writing on the wall here.

Tebow is not the guy they drafted and history shows, just as with coaches, if a new coach and GM take over a team and they do not have an already established QB on the roster, rarely do any of the current QB's stay very long. They would wait for their own QB to develop, but not one they didn't draft or sign.

And how Tebow, if Manning signs elsewhere, could believe it if the Broncos told him they do believe in him is hard to fathom. Their actions show otherwise.

Some say, well it is Manning they went after, so he will understand. Sure, he will understand that they don't think they can win with him and don't even want to bother to see him win or lose the job in TC.

Trust can be a fragile thing and the quickest way for a coach or FO to lose players is when they can't be trusted and right now, I don't see how Tebow can believe what they tell him anymore.

And again, people can believe what Tebow should feel, but nobody likes feeling they have been lied to. We can argue all day whether you feel Tebow was lied to or shouldn't feel this of that, but he is human and one can easily see how he could see it that way.

I agree with you that there is a history of broken trust. This organization hasn't been in Tebow's corner, but I think people underestimate how much effect Tebow's beliefs have on his reaction to this situation. The boy has perserverance written in his very bones, and this is but another challenge towards his goals. It's crappy to watch, but I think his whole life has been about overcoming adversity and rising above. Anyway - that's my personal opinion, and I guess we won't know how our personal opinions shake out until about August.

So here is my question for you. You be Tebow's agent. Do you tell him to stay at a team where he is slotted as the starter, or do you tell him to go try to "compete" for another team? If so, list your teams where you think the staff will accomodate Tebow as the starter.

TonyR
03-17-2012, 09:04 AM
Either Woody's an idiot or EFX are.

What it really boils down to is that Woody's "trustworthy source" is either right or wrong. That or Woody made it up...

cmhargrove
03-17-2012, 09:07 AM
What it really boils down to is that Woody's "trustworthy source" is either right or wrong. That or Woody made it up...

Point taken, but you're not off the hook. Back to my agent question -- where would you advise your client to go, if not accepting the "starting role" for the Broncos?

Dedhed
03-17-2012, 09:08 AM
I just don't agree. The Broncos going after Manning shows they do not believe in him.

I disagree with this. Manning is a once in a lifetime player. Pursuing him doesn't say anything about Tebow other than he isn't currently as good as one of the top QBs in the history of the game. There's no one arguing that point.

But it doesn't translate to having no faith in Tebow.

barryr
03-17-2012, 09:11 AM
I agree with you that there is a history of broken trust. This organization hasn't been in Tebow's corner, but I think people underestimate how much effect Tebow's beliefs have on his reaction to this situation. The boy has perserverance written in his very bones, and this is but another challenge towards his goals. It's crappy to watch, but I think his whole life has been about overcoming adversity and rising above. Anyway - that's my personal opinion, and I guess we won't know how our personal opinions shake out until about August.

So here is my question for you. You be Tebow's agent. Do you tell him to stay at a team where he is slotted as the starter, or do you tell him to go try to "compete" for another team? If so, list your teams where you think the staff will accomodate Tebow as the starter.

I would tell him to bolt since any other team would be trading for him or signing him because they want him. Tebow is slated to be the starter, but as we can see and he can especially, that doesn't really mean much since it is written with pencil.

As for teams, it depends on what teams that need a QB do. Miami needs a QB and that would be an option, but not if they sign Flynn. Seattle could be a team with interest, but not if they sign Flynn. The Browns could be a team with interest, especially fan interest in that team is quite low right now, but not if they draft Tannehill. Any others would be a team with a solid QB in place and where they would plan to use Tebow in wildcat type of plays and maybe goal line situations.

barryr
03-17-2012, 09:16 AM
I disagree with this. Manning is a once in a lifetime player. Pursuing him doesn't say anything about Tebow other than he isn't currently as good as one of the top QBs in the history of the game. There's no one arguing that point.

But it doesn't translate to having no faith in Tebow.

We will have to agree to disagree then. Romo isn't as good as Manning either, yet Dallas made effort to get Manning and they seem to have a ton of money somehow with all of the other moves they have made. Difference is they believe in their QB. The Broncos do not believe in Tebow. If they did, they wouldn't bother going after Manning, especially since this roster is not Super Bowl caliber and one would hope they would spend pretty much the same way in FA no matter who was the QB.

Dedhed
03-17-2012, 09:18 AM
So here is my question for you. You be Tebow's agent. Do you tell him to stay at a team where he is slotted as the starter, or do you tell him to go try to "compete" for another team? If so, list your teams where you think the staff will accomodate Tebow as the starter.

There is nowhere else in the league where Tebow will be as accommodated as he will be in Denver, assuming we don't sign Manning, of course.

TonyR
03-17-2012, 09:19 AM
Point taken, but you're not off the hook. Back to my agent question -- where would you advise your client to go, if not accepting the "starting role" for the Broncos?

Well I don't think the agent's advice is all that big of a factor because the Broncos either keep him or they don't. So I'd say sit tight and see what the Broncos do because I don't think there's much, if any, market for Tim Tebow.

BabyTO
03-17-2012, 09:20 AM
Fox broke his public silence Thursday evening and told me: "Sometimes you have to be willing to take big risks in life."
how about believing and developing the guy that saved your ass from being fired you big turd

Dedhed
03-17-2012, 09:21 AM
We will have to agree to disagree then. Romo isn't as good as Manning either, yet Dallas made effort to get Manning and they seem to have a ton of money somehow with all of the other moves they have made. Difference is they believe in their QB. The Broncos do not believe in Tebow. If they did, they wouldn't bother going after Manning, especially since this roster is not Super Bowl caliber and one would hope they would spend pretty much the same way in FA no matter who was the QB.
I think you're mistaking the idea that the Broncos don't believe Tim is there yet with the idea that they do not believe in him at all.

Are you applying the same logic to Alex Smith, Jake Locker, Hasselback, Kolb?

Do all those guys have to be dealt as well?

TonyR
03-17-2012, 09:22 AM
I disagree with this. Manning is a once in a lifetime player. Pursuing him doesn't say anything about Tebow other than he isn't currently as good as one of the top QBs in the history of the game. There's no one arguing that point.

But it doesn't translate to having no faith in Tebow.

I certainly understand this perspective. But as I've said before, if they thought Tebow was the QBOTF they wouldn't be interested in Manning. You don't replace your franchise QBOTF, there is absolutely zero precedent for such a move. So the pursuit really does say quite a lot. I'll have to agree with barry here.

peacepipe
03-17-2012, 09:23 AM
how about believing and developing the guy that saved your ass from being fired you big turd

foxs' job was never at risk,so tebow never saved his ass from being fired. if anything fox saved tebows job by changing the entire offense to help tebow.

Dedhed
03-17-2012, 09:23 AM
how about believing and developing the guy that saved your ass from being fired you big turd

Manning is a security blanket for any coach because Manning actually becomes the figurehead of the team and the coach is less culpable. Dungy hid behind Manning for a decade, cashing checks while Manning ran the team.

montrose
03-17-2012, 09:24 AM
I call bull****. They couldn't have just decided to go after Manning after seeing the presser. I have to believe this chase has been planned and talked about within the organization since the end of last season.

Schefter reported just a few weeks ago the Broncos had no interest in going after Manning, so it would appear there was a change of plans somewhere.

BroncoBeavis
03-17-2012, 09:25 AM
I certainly understand this perspective. But as I've said before, if they thought Tebow was the QBOTF they wouldn't be interested in Manning. You don't replace your franchise QBOTF, there is absolutely zero precedent for such a move. So the pursuit really does say quite a lot. I'll have to agree with barry here.

Problem is, virtually nobody is established as a franchise QBOTF after 14 regular season games. At that point, some people thought Sanchez might be. Some people thought Leinart would be. Some thought Rodgers wouldn't be. Some thought Eli wouldn't be. Most thought Brees wouldn't be.

JCMElway
03-17-2012, 09:25 AM
how about believing and developing the guy that saved your ass from being fired you big turd

Fox would not have been fired in the first year of a rebuild. Not even close.

TonyR
03-17-2012, 09:26 AM
Schefter reported just a few weeks ago the Broncos had no interest in going after Manning, so it would appear there was a change of plans somewhere.

^ I recall early in the process a comment in an article (I think reported by Schefter) that they weren't intending to go after Manning and then "something changed", but I can't seem to find it anywhere...

BabyTO
03-17-2012, 09:27 AM
foxs' job was never at risk,so tebow never saved his ass from being fired.
that wouldnt even surprise me one bit. if you hire a turd like john fox who has been chased out of carolina because of how bad of a headcoach he is, and then you sign him, why would you get rid of him again? obviously you were expecting a 1-15 season under him, which is exactly what we were heading towards.

i was saying under any GM or owner that tries to win games fox would have been fired this year if it wasnt for tebow.

Dedhed
03-17-2012, 09:27 AM
I certainly understand this perspective. But as I've said before, if they thought Tebow was the QBOTF they wouldn't be interested in Manning. You don't replace your franchise QBOTF, there is absolutely zero precedent for such a move. So the pursuit really does say quite a lot. I'll have to agree with barry here.
Tebow hasn't proven he's that franchise guy, but that does not equate to a complete lack of belief in him by any stretch.

There is all sorts of precedence for sitting a young guy with franchise potential behind a proven veteran. What there is zero precedence for is a QB of Manning's caliber hitting the FA market.

barryr
03-17-2012, 09:30 AM
Tebow hasn't proven he's that franchise guy, but that does not equate to a complete lack of belief in him by any stretch.

There is all sorts of precedence for sitting a young guy with franchise potential behind a proven veteran. What there is zero precedence for is a QB of Manning's caliber hitting the FA market.

You only replace your QB in this situation for 2 reasons: You don't believe you have your future QB or you think you have a roster good enough to win a Super Bowl right now.

peacepipe
03-17-2012, 09:33 AM
that wouldnt even surprise me one bit. if you hire a turd like john fox who has been chased out of carolina because of how bad of a headcoach he is, and then you sign him, why would you get rid of him again? obviously you were expecting a 1-15 season under him, which is exactly what we were heading towards.

i was saying under any GM or owner that tries to win games fox would have been fired this year if it wasnt for tebow.Fox although not great has been to the SB. also bowlen wasn't going to bring in a coach just to fire him the next yr.

BroncoBeavis
03-17-2012, 09:34 AM
You only replace your QB in this situation for 2 reasons: You don't believe you have your future QB or you think you have a roster good enough to win a Super Bowl right now.

Problem is if you believe the 1st, you bring in an option that has more than a couple years left. They have to believe Manning gives them a chance at a title, otherwise they wouldn't want to blow up their cap on a window they know can't deliver.

So on that front, I think they're more badly mistaken than anything. They need to look at the '10 Colts and really ask themselves if those guys had a legit shot at the title. Because they didn't.

TonyR
03-17-2012, 09:34 AM
Tebow hasn't proven he's that franchise guy, but that does not equate to a complete lack of belief in him by any stretch.

There is all sorts of precedence for sitting a young guy with franchise potential behind a proven veteran. What there is zero precedence for is a QB of Manning's caliber hitting the FA market.

Agree with all of this. But regarding the bolded part, I can't think of an example where a young guy was sat behind a veteran after starting for most of a season. Sure, guys have struggled and been temporarily replaced, but to actively pursue a replacement starter? A starter whose contract will outlast that of the young player?

Dedhed
03-17-2012, 09:35 AM
You only replace your QB in this situation for 2 reasons: You don't believe you have your future QB or you think you have a roster good enough to win a Super Bowl right now.This is pure conjecture on your part, and doesn't carry much weight in the argument. I could just as easily say that you only make this move because you want your young QB to learn from the very best in the game.

barryr
03-17-2012, 09:35 AM
I think you're mistaking the idea that the Broncos don't believe Tim is there yet with the idea that they do not believe in him at all.

Are you applying the same logic to Alex Smith, Jake Locker, Hasselback, Kolb?

Do all those guys have to be dealt as well?

The Titans are a special case because of Manning's Tennessee ties and the owner wants butts in the seats and more season ticket holders.

Why would the Cards believe in Kolb? What did he do last year that would convince them of anything?

Alex Smith could be a different story, though my feeling is the 49ers won't win a championship with him. I mean, it took him many years to develop, most QB's do not stay that long with one team if hadn't shown that much.

Dedhed
03-17-2012, 09:36 AM
The Titans are a special case because of Manning's Tennessee ties and the owner wants butts in the seats and more season ticket holders.

Why would the Cards believe in Kolb? What did he do last year that would convince them of anything?

Alex Smith could be a different story, though my feeling is the 49ers won't win a championship with him. I mean, it took him many years to develop, most QB's do not stay that long with one team if hadn't shown that much.

I can't believe you can't see what you're saying here.

Dedhed
03-17-2012, 09:38 AM
Agree with all of this. But regarding the bolded part, I can't think of an example where a young guy was sat behind a veteran after starting for most of a season. Sure, guys have struggled and been temporarily replaced, but to actively pursue a replacement starter? A starter whose contract will outlast that of the young player?

Can you think of an example where a QB of Manning's caliber was on the open market?

Hamrob
03-17-2012, 09:39 AM
I agree with you that there is a history of broken trust. This organization hasn't been in Tebow's corner, but I think people underestimate how much effect Tebow's beliefs have on his reaction to this situation. The boy has perserverance written in his very bones, and this is but another challenge towards his goals. It's crappy to watch, but I think his whole life has been about overcoming adversity and rising above. Anyway - that's my personal opinion, and I guess we won't know how our personal opinions shake out until about August.

So here is my question for you. You be Tebow's agent. Do you tell him to stay at a team where he is slotted as the starter, or do you tell him to go try to "compete" for another team? If so, list your teams where you think the staff will accomodate Tebow as the starter.I agree and disagree. I agree that he should stay/go to a place where he will be the starter. I disagree that his best chance will be in Denver. Why?

Fox/Elway do not want him to be their starter. There is a lot of time left before the season begins. I would not be surprised to see them either trade for a QB to compete with Tebow or draft one at #25. They could get in the Flynn discussions, they could trade for Hassleback, they could pick up Smith.

The difference: The team that will be trading for him....will actually WANT him as their QB. Yes, he may have to compete, but he will be with a team that thought enough of him, to actually trade for him.

If I'm Tebow's agent, I ask EFX, If I can shop around for a deal. That way, you have a shot at finding a situtaion where your guy is liked, is wanted, and has the best chance to actually be the starter for sometime to come.

In Denver, Fox is looking for a way to get Tebow off the field, he's not interested in Tebow being his QB for any extended period of time. There is nothing that Tebow can do about it either. He has to know that.

barryr
03-17-2012, 09:41 AM
This is pure conjecture on your part, and doesn't carry much weight in the argument. I could just as easily say that you only make this move because you want your young QB to learn from the very best in the game.

Sure, as is conjecture thinking Tebow will be all smiles and happy. The things Manning does are not things most QB's do nor are given that kind of power either, so thinking Tebow can learn that much what Manning does when the odds are slim Tebow would ever get that kind of power seems silly. Tebow would need to learn a new offense, but sitting and watching for 2-3 years at least is not really going to help him. In fact, I believed what Tebow needed was a full camp where he got the most of the snaps with his fellow starters to help with improvemnt, but here in this case, he would be sitting and watching Manning take the snaps and somehow this is going to help Tebow read defenses, help with his timing with his receivers? Sorry, but no, watching tape is great, but bottom line is you need practice and to play to get better and that won't happen with Manning around, nor can that help make the Broncos suddenly believe Tebow is the answer in 3 years when his contract is up either.

barryr
03-17-2012, 09:43 AM
I can't believe you can't see what you're saying here.

I don't feel the Broncos believe in Tebow and nothing to this point shows me otherwise.

TonyR
03-17-2012, 09:43 AM
Can you think of an example where a QB of Manning's caliber was on the open market?

No. But again, Manning's contract will be a 3-5 year commitment. That would effectively be an outright replacement of Tim Tebow. Which goes back to the original argument: you don't replace a guy you believe in.

peacepipe
03-17-2012, 09:45 AM
objectively looking at it, the only team out that has expressed any interest is jax.

barryr
03-17-2012, 09:46 AM
No. But again, Manning's contract will be a 3-5 year commitment. That would effectively be an outright replacement of Tim Tebow. Which goes back to the original argument: you don't replace a guy you believe in.

Agreed. If it was for one year, then maybe I see that, but doubtful the Broncos or Manning see this as a one year rental. QB's usually get better by playing.

cabronco
03-17-2012, 09:46 AM
I think Fox saying it was his idea to go after PM, allegedly, is more to take heat off of Elway if things dont work out. Otherwise it will be a shyt storm with JE being the eye, now he would be kind of right center of it..Now if they land the big fish it was a consensus between the three...

barryr
03-17-2012, 09:47 AM
objectively looking at it, the only team out that has expressed any interest is jax.

Well, any public interest, but as we saw with the 49ers and Manning, who knows what is really going on around the NFL.

peacepipe
03-17-2012, 09:49 AM
Well, any public interest, but as we saw with the 49ers and Manning, who knows what is really going on around the NFL.

true,but I don't see a flurry teams tripping over themselves to try & get tebow. jax probably more interested in filling seats than what tebow can or cannot do.

BroncoBeavis
03-17-2012, 09:49 AM
objectively looking at it, the only team out that has expressed any interest is jax.

Yeah, that says next to nothing. You'd have to be an EF(x)ing moron to blabber on about every QB in the league you'd like to have unless you're reasonably sure you have a shot to get him.

houghtam
03-17-2012, 09:49 AM
I can't believe you can't see what you're saying here.

If you're referring to your assumption that barryr is in any way comparing giving Alex Smith time and seeing he's not the QBOTF, and having given Tebow enough time, Tebow was given 14 games, Alex Smith was given 70. Kolb has been in the league 5 years.

barryr
03-17-2012, 09:50 AM
If you're referring to your assumption that barryr is in any way comparing giving Alex Smith time and seeing he's not the QBOTF, and having given Tebow enough time, Tebow was given 14 games, Alex Smith was given 70. Kolb has been in the league 5 years.

True, thank you :notworthy

Dedhed
03-17-2012, 09:51 AM
Sure, as is conjecture thinking Tebow will be all smiles and happy. The things Manning does are not things most QB's do nor are given that kind of power either, so thinking Tebow can learn that much what Manning does when the odds are slim Tebow would ever get that kind of power seems silly. Tebow would need to learn a new offense, but sitting and watching for 2-3 years at least is not really going to help him. In fact, I believed what Tebow needed was a full camp where he got the most of the snaps with his fellow starters to help with improvemnt, but here in this case, he would be sitting and watching Manning take the snaps and somehow this is going to help Tebow read defenses, help with his timing with his receivers? Sorry, but no, watching tape is great, but bottom line is you need practice and to play to get better and that won't happen with Manning around, nor can that help make the Broncos suddenly believe Tebow is the answer in 3 years when his contract is up either.You've missed my point. I wasn't offering a legitimate argument; neither were you.

houghtam
03-17-2012, 09:51 AM
Agreed. If it was for one year, then maybe I see that, but doubtful the Broncos or Manning see this as a one year rental. QB's usually get better by playing.

And even if the Broncos saw it as a one year rental, there's no way Manning would sign the contract if another team were offering 3 years. So regardless what the Broncos' plans with Manning/Tebow are, if they sign Manning, they're signing him for the balance of Tebow's contract.

barryr
03-17-2012, 09:53 AM
true,but I don't see a flurry teams tripping over themselves to try & get tebow. jax probably more interested in filling seats than what tebow can or cannot do.

The Browns, Seattle, and Miami come to mind, but that depends on what they do with Flynn and the draft. There are other teams that are set at QB where a Tebow coming in wouldn't create a controversy and could use him in various roles. Maybe not what Tebow would want, but that would be better than sitting for 2-3 years and not playing at all except in mop up time like with the Broncos if Manning signs.

barryr
03-17-2012, 09:55 AM
And even if the Broncos saw it as a one year rental, there's no way Manning would sign the contract if another team were offering 3 years. So regardless what the Broncos' plans with Manning/Tebow are, if they sign Manning, they're signing him for the balance of Tebow's contract.

Yep, and Tebow would want to re-sign and the Broncos would have enough evidence to believe Tebow would be the starter? Based on what? Trust? Film study? Clipboard maintenance?

Dedhed
03-17-2012, 09:55 AM
If you're referring to your assumption that barryr is in any way comparing giving Alex Smith time and seeing he's not the QBOTF, and having given Tebow enough time, Tebow was given 14 games, Alex Smith was given 70. Kolb has been in the league 5 years.

I'm referring only to barry applying different rules to Tebow than he is to every other QB involved in the situation.

houghtam
03-17-2012, 09:56 AM
I'm referring only to barry applying different rules to Tebow than he is to every other QB involved in the situation.

What rules are different?

Dedhed
03-17-2012, 09:57 AM
true,but I don't see a flurry teams tripping over themselves to try & get tebow.

This could just as easily mean that the Broncos have expressed zero interest in moving Tebow, whether they sign Manning or not.

Dedhed
03-17-2012, 09:58 AM
What rules are different?Taking the pursuit of Manning to mean that they have no belief in other QBs on their roster.

He's saying that in regards to Tebow, but not to anyone else.

barryr
03-17-2012, 10:00 AM
I'm referring only to barry applying different rules to Tebow than he is to every other QB involved in the situation.

What? That maybe those teams don't believe in their QB's? If I cared what problems they create for themselves going after Manning, then maybe I would discuss at length about it. But I don't, but I do the Broncos of course and stated my reasons. You disagree, but that is ok with me. But don't ask me to try to get into the inner working of the Titans in depth or the Cards since I don't care enough about them to try.

houghtam
03-17-2012, 10:02 AM
Yep, and Tebow would want to re-sign and the Broncos would have enough evidence to believe Tebow would be the starter? Based on what? Trust? Film study? Clipboard maintenance?

Yeah I mean if the Broncos sign Manning and keep Tebow, they will be no closer to knowing whether he's ready than they are today. All of the people saying they could keep Tebow to learn from Manning are the same people that were saying Tebow can't be taught.

You sign Manning, you have to deal Tebow, and you have to win playoff games. If the Broncos sign Manning and they miss the playoffs next year, they will have a full on mutiny on their hands. If they keep Tebow and miss the playoffs next year, they will accomplish two things: knowing whether the guy they drafted in the first round can play, and putting themselves in a position to draft the QBOTF. From a PR perspective and from a business perspective, I think the smart play is to keep Tebow...people around here might not like the new fans that came with Tebow, but their money spends just the same as those of us who have been around for awhile.

Dedhed
03-17-2012, 10:02 AM
What? That maybe those teams don't believe in their QB's? If I cared what problems they create for themselves going after Manning, then maybe I would discuss at length about it. But I don't, but I do the Broncos of course and stated my reasons. You disagree, but that is ok with me. But don't ask me to try to get into the inner working of the Titans in depth or the Cards since I don't care enough about them to try.
You've said numerous times that the Broncos now have to get rid of Tebow whether they sign Manning or not.

By that logic, the Cards have to get rid of Kolb, the Titans have to get rid of Locker, and the 49ers have to cut ties with Alex Smith.

hookemhess
03-17-2012, 10:03 AM
Oh good god, sometimes this board gets waaay too carried away about "feelings" and "believing" in each other. This is a business. And a much better player came on the market at a position that isn't our strongest. PM would be an incredible asset to our organization. I think 98% of people involved (directly or indirectly) recognize that. Tim Tebow would recognize that. He's a big boy, guys. He's not going to get butt hurt because the Broncos pursued one of the GOAT. I won't sit here and try to justify Cutler demanding a trade -- but at least in his case, the guy they were trying to replace him with was clearly a less talented player.

barryr
03-17-2012, 10:03 AM
Taking the pursuit of Manning to mean that they have no belief in other QBs on their roster.

He's saying that in regards to Tebow, but not to anyone else.

And I stated why the Cards would have trust in Kolb? Did you answer that one? The owner of the Titans is a nut who is wanting Manning no matter what or who he may piss off apparently. If Manning did not have ties to Tennessee, I could see why Locker would be upset. As for Hasselbeck, he is in his last legs in the NFL, so I doubt their owner really cares about him that much right now.

Bronco Rob
03-17-2012, 10:05 AM
Let me see if I understand this correctly. Does this mean that the 12 other teams that were "pursuing" Peyton Manning showed a lack of faith in their quarterbacks as well?



???

Dedhed
03-17-2012, 10:05 AM
And I stated why the Cards would have trust in Kolb? Did you answer that one? The owner of the Titans is a nut who is wanting Manning no matter what or who he may piss off apparently. If Manning did not have ties to Tennessee, I could see why Locker would be upset. As for Hasselbeck, he is in his last legs in the NFL, so I doubt their owner really cares about him that much right now.

I didn't say the Cards have trust in Kolb, but they just gave him $7M. Your logic says that the Titans now cannot move forward with Locker.

barryr
03-17-2012, 10:06 AM
You've said numerous times that the Broncos now have to get rid of Tebow whether they sign Manning or not.

By that logic, the Cards have to get rid of Kolb, the Titans have to get rid of Locker, and the 49ers have to cut ties with Alex Smith.

Um, the Cards just tried to. Kolb just got a big bonus and he isn't going to ask to be traded when he won't go anywhere to start with that money and horrible season he just had. I'd say Kolb is quite happy right now.

As for how Alex Smith is going or Locker, don't know or care that much really. If they were made promises like Tebow, then they have problems on their hands.

TonyR
03-17-2012, 10:06 AM
Let me see if I understand this correctly. Does this mean that the 12 other teams that were "pursuing" Peyton Manning showed a lack of faith in their quarterbacks as well?


Yes.

Bronco Rob
03-17-2012, 10:09 AM
Yes.


in comparison to Peyton Manning or just in general?

Dedhed
03-17-2012, 10:10 AM
Um, the Cards just tried to. Kolb just got a big bonus and he isn't going to ask to be traded when he won't go anywhere to start with that money and horrible season he just had. I'd say Kolb is quite happy right now.

As for how Alex Smith is going or Locker, don't know or care that much really. If they were made promises like Tebow, then they have problems on their hands.

Whether you care doesn't have anything to do with how ridiculous your logic is.

barryr
03-17-2012, 10:10 AM
I didn't say the Cards have trust in Kolb, but they just gave him $7M. Your logic says that the Titans now cannot move forward with Locker.

The Cards also have no other option and in agreeing to the bonus, then obviously they are wanting to try Kolb for another year at least, which they wouldn't have done if felt had to get rid of him. I don't know what the Titans feel about Locker nor what promises if any they have to him. Do you? Maybe they feel Locker isn't ready and Manning is a better option than Haseselback, who at this point, would be lucky to land a starting job someplace else.

Dedhed
03-17-2012, 10:10 AM
in comparison to Peyton Manning or just in general?

There's the crux that Tony and Barry seem to want to ignore.

barryr
03-17-2012, 10:11 AM
Whether you care doesn't have anything to do with how ridiculous your logic is.

You want to compare apples to oranges, so logic isn't computing.

Bronco Rob
03-17-2012, 10:12 AM
I have heard all week long from the fans of other teams that say that the Bronco faithful have turned their backs on Tebow during their pursuit of Manning. To the best of my knowledge there may be four or five other teams in the NFL that if they had the chance would not pursue Peyton Manning at this point in his career. Now whether it's due to a lack of cap space or already have another quarterback locked into long-term contract I don't know.

I just love how everybody jumps to the conclusion that this decision is an indictment of Tebow and to a lesser extent the other quarterbacks involved.

Dedhed
03-17-2012, 10:12 AM
The Cards also have no other option and in agreeing to the bonus, then obviously they are wanting to try Kolb for another year at least, which they wouldn't have done if felt had to get rid of him. I don't know what the Titans feel about Locker nor what promises if any they have to him. Do you? Maybe they feel Locker isn't ready and Manning is a better option than Haseselback, who at this point, would be lucky to land a starting job someplace else.
You're not getting the argument at all. I agree with everything you're saying here, but you're not applying any of this same logic to Tebow. That is my point.

Dedhed
03-17-2012, 10:14 AM
You want to compare apples to oranges, so logic isn't computing.
No, I want to call a spade a spade; pursuing Manning equates to upgrading the Roster. It does not equate to having no faith in other QBs on the roster.

barryr
03-17-2012, 10:14 AM
There's the crux that Tony and Barry seem to want to ignore.

Oh, so all of the teams interested in Manning were not ones set at QB? So the Packers also called. The Saints. Dallas called. Oh, those pesky Saints? Cincy called, who have Dalton, but Manning is better, so they called to? Which team that is already set at QB called to get Manning?

Dedhed
03-17-2012, 10:15 AM
I just love how everybody jumps to the conclusion that this decision is an indictment of Tebow and to a lesser extent the other quarterbacks involved.
This is exactly what I'm saying. Certain people want this to be an indictment of Tebow, but it isn't.

TonyR
03-17-2012, 10:16 AM
in comparison to Peyton Manning or just in general?

In general. I think every team that got seriously interested in Manning doesn't believe they currently have their QBOTF with two possible exceptions:

1) Alex Smith in SF because if would have signed his contract they wouldn't be involved with Manning

2) Jake Locker in Tennesse because it appears the owner is overruling the FO

barryr
03-17-2012, 10:17 AM
This is exactly what I'm saying. Certain people want this to be an indictment of Tebow, but it isn't.

Um, I am a Tebow supporter and would rather he be the starter, but even I can see the writing on the wall.

Dedhed
03-17-2012, 10:18 AM
Oh, so all of the teams interested in Manning were not ones set at QB? So the Packers also called. The Saints. Dallas called. Oh, those pesky Saints? Cincy called, who have Dalton, but Manning is better, so they called to? Which team that is already set at QB called to get Manning?

First, you have no idea who called to inquire. Second there are all sorts of other mitigating factors that automatically exclude a number of teams.

Third, you're still not applying the same logic to other teams that you are to the Broncos and Tebow.

BroncoBeavis
03-17-2012, 10:18 AM
This is exactly what I'm saying. Certain people want this to be an indictment of Tebow, but it isn't.

By itself it isn't. In combination with what happened last season... plus how desperate they look. Plus the fact that they don't even address the controversy, or mention it to Tebow. Plus the fact that they apparently have no interest in improving the team if Manning isn't on it.

Like I said earlier, they're going to NEED Tebow if this falls through. But that doesn't mean they're not going to set him up to fail. Because it usually is what it looks like it is.

TonyR
03-17-2012, 10:18 AM
Certain people want this to be an indictment of Tebow, but it isn't.

It isn't an "indictment of Tebow". It's just a revelation of what EFX think of him. They might be wrong.

Dedhed
03-17-2012, 10:19 AM
Um, I am a Tebow supporter and would rather he be the starter, but even I can see the writing on the wall.

You're acting the martyr on Tebow's behalf.

TonyR
03-17-2012, 10:19 AM
Because it usually is what it looks like it is.

Yup. Smoke, fire, and all that.

Dedhed
03-17-2012, 10:20 AM
It isn't an "indictment of Tebow". It's just a revelation of what EFX think of him. They might be wrong.
Exactly. They think he's not yet as good as Manning.

Bronco Rob
03-17-2012, 10:20 AM
This is exactly what I'm saying. Certain people want this to be an indictment of Tebow, but it isn't.



That's what cracks me up. I would like to see the list of teams that Peyton Manning could not start for in 2012.


Anytime any story has to do with Tim Tebow there is inevitably some sort of negative spin applied to it.

Dedhed
03-17-2012, 10:22 AM
By itself it isn't. In combination with what happened last season... plus how desperate they look. Plus the fact that they don't even address the controversy, or mention it to Tebow. Plus the fact that they apparently have no interest in improving the team if Manning isn't on it.

Like I said earlier, they're going to NEED Tebow if this falls through. But that doesn't mean they're not going to set him up to fail. Because it usually is what it looks like it is.I'd rather not delve into conspiracy theories.

RaiderH8r
03-17-2012, 10:23 AM
I would tell him to bolt since any other team would be trading for him or signing him because they want him. Tebow is slated to be the starter, but as we can see and he can especially, that doesn't really mean much since it is written with pencil.

As for teams, it depends on what teams that need a QB do. Miami needs a QB and that would be an option, but not if they sign Flynn. Seattle could be a team with interest, but not if they sign Flynn. The Browns could be a team with interest, especially fan interest in that team is quite low right now, but not if they draft Tannehill. Any others would be a team with a solid QB in place and where they would plan to use Tebow in wildcat type of plays and maybe goal line situations.

If it came from this FO iti isn't worth the air it is floating on. Our FO are duplicitous turdbags. Sure, make the play for Manning but when it fails it is on EFX and, frankly, somebody should be fired for it. This is one time EFX can't throw Tebow under the bus for their failure.

Dedhed
03-17-2012, 10:24 AM
That's what cracks me up. I would like to see the list of teams that Peyton Manning could not start for in 2012.


Anytime any story has to do with Tim Tebow there is inevitably some sort of negative spin applied to it.

That's my argument. People look at things much differently because Tebow is involved.

BroncoBeavis
03-17-2012, 10:24 AM
I'd rather not delve into conspiracy theories.

I'll give the benefit of the doubt. Sometimes stunning ineptitude can end up looking like conspiracy.

But I'm guessing it would be pretty hard to find an instance in NFL history where a team just came off it's first playoff win in years and follows up by trying to assemble the lowest payroll in the league.

RaiderH8r
03-17-2012, 10:28 AM
I didn't say the Cards have trust in Kolb, but they just gave him $7M. Your logic says that the Titans now cannot move forward with Locker.

Kolb sucks so the cards shouldn't have faith in him, titans would keep locker and ditch hasselbeck so thhat's their confidence in him and Denver has done everything, up to and including, picking the peanuts out of Peyton's **** because Peyton tells them to. EFX has gone all in to replace the guy that saved a job or two, won 7 straight, put life into the club and put the broncos back on the map so this turd is theirs to handle and when they fail, because they will, someone needs to be shown the door.

Bronco Rob
03-17-2012, 10:35 AM
That's my argument. People look at things much differently because Tebow is involved.



Exactly! That has been my experience all week long talking to fans of other teams, specifically fans of other teams in the AFC West. At this point I almost hope that Tebow is the starter in 2012 just because of all the rancor and enmity he causes.

barryr
03-17-2012, 10:37 AM
You're acting the martyr on Tebow's behalf.

Ok, so Tebow should believe anything the Broncos tell him, especially the part of being the starter going into TC. Happy?

Requiem
03-17-2012, 10:38 AM
Who cares if we sign manning? we probably won't get him now. trade tebow, bring back darrel hackney and take a fourth or fifth flier on Ryan Lindley and you call it a good day.

peacepipe
03-17-2012, 10:38 AM
Exactly! That has been my experience all week long talking to fans of other teams, specifically fans of other teams in the AFC West. At this point I almost hope that Tebow is the starter in 2012 just because of all the rancor and enmity he causes.funny I hope we get rid of tebow, but then again I don't go on other teams websites.

Bronco Rob
03-17-2012, 10:41 AM
So the consensus is this was some elaborate ploy to gauge the fan bases response to the possibility of life without Tim Tebow?


Has it really come to this at Dove Valley? I mean really? Really?



???

doonwise
03-17-2012, 10:41 AM
I just don't agree. The Broncos going after Manning shows they do not believe in him. The only teams who really went after Manning were ones who at least have the appearance of having questions at QB.

I will state once again like I have other times. If they had simply told Tebow you are the starter going into TC and they brought in a drafted rookie and some vet to compete and Tebow got beat, so be it. He would have had his chance to win the job outright, but failed.

Instead they would have signed Manning, who would not agree to come to the Broncos to "compete" for a job, much less the Broncos giving huge money for "competition." He would have the job and Tebow would have lost his chance to really compete for the job before even the draft.

Add Tebow felt slighted about not being the starter going into last season and now this. People can say how they think he should feel, but any normal person could see the writing on the wall here.

Tebow is not the guy they drafted and history shows, just as with coaches, if a new coach and GM take over a team and they do not have an already established QB on the roster, rarely do any of the current QB's stay very long. They would wait for their own QB to develop, but not one they didn't draft or sign.

And how Tebow, if Manning signs elsewhere, could believe it if the Broncos told him they do believe in him is hard to fathom. Their actions show otherwise.

Some say, well it is Manning they went after, so he will understand. Sure, he will understand that they don't think they can win with him and don't even want to bother to see him win or lose the job in TC.

Trust can be a fragile thing and the quickest way for a coach or FO to lose players is when they can't be trusted and right now, I don't see how Tebow can believe what they tell him anymore.

And again, people can believe what Tebow should feel, but nobody likes feeling they have been lied to. We can argue all day whether you feel Tebow was lied to or shouldn't feel this or that, but he is human and one can easily see how he could see it that way.

But no, I am not saying the Broncos are necessarily wrong. If they do not believe in Tebow, then they should be looking for a new starting QB. But because of how this is played out, I just believe they need a new one even if Manning signs someplace else since Tebow would just feel he is on borrowed time and the patience for him to develop would not be that high.

It doesn't matter if the Broncos believe in Tebow or not, and let's man up for a second and stop worrying about Tebow's feelings. He's under contract, just the way God wants it. All he has to do to change EFX's collective mind is WIN THE SUPERBOWL (or at least show he can make most of the throws - you know, like stop consistently missing on 5-yard out patterns). As exciting as it is to watch, the reality is that Elway didn't win any champions when he was playing like Tebow (running all over the field). That style was and is very entertaining to watch, but it's not what has the best odds of winning a championship.

barryr
03-17-2012, 10:42 AM
First, you have no idea who called to inquire. Second there are all sorts of other mitigating factors that automatically exclude a number of teams.

Third, you're still not applying the same logic to other teams that you are to the Broncos and Tebow.

And neither do you, but then you want me to compare all teams together when not all teams are in the same boat or circumstances, so this "logic" may not work for each and every team, much less I don't know who called and didn't. So why are you asking me to answer something you even state I can't know then? Look, I'd like Tebow to stay, but nothing now tells me he should believe a word this FO tells him. If he does and just shrugs his shoulders they tried to replace him, more power to him.

Bronco Rob
03-17-2012, 10:43 AM
funny I hope we get rid of tebow, but then again I don't go on other teams websites.



Nor do I. They are chat rooms as opposed to teams fan sites. Just a friendly reminder...


Griese playoff wins with Denver = 0
Plummer playoff wins with Denver = 1
Cutler playoff wins with Denver = 0
Orton playoff wins with Denver = 0
Tebow playoff wins with Denver = 1

barryr
03-17-2012, 10:44 AM
It doesn't matter if the Broncos believe in Tebow or not, and let's man up for a second and stop worrying about Tebow's feelings. He's under contract, just the way God wants it. All he has to do to change EFX's collective mind is WIN THE SUPERBOWL (or at least show he can make most of the throws - you know, like stop consistently missing on 5-yard out patterns). As exciting as it is to watch, the reality is that Elway didn't win any champions when he was playing like Tebow (running all over the field). That style was and is very entertaining to watch, but it's not what has the best odds of winning a championship.

Maybe the Broncos don 't want to wait for that to happen because they don't think it will. Tebow gets better sitting and playing Madden on PS?

Tebow helped take a 1-4 to the playoffs, coming off a 4-12 season and even throws the winning TD pass in a playoff game and the best endorsement he can get from the coach and FO is "he's earned the right to be the starter in TC." Not "he's our future starter the next 10-12 years." Not even the starter next season, just the starter heading to TC, which says you can still lose the job. And then they go after Manning even before the draft. Yeah, the Broncos are really showing their belief in Tebow here.

peacepipe
03-17-2012, 10:50 AM
Nor do I. They are chat rooms as opposed to teams fan sites. Just a friendly reminder...


Griese playoff wins with Denver = 0
Plummer playoff wins with Denver = 1
Cutler playoff wins with Denver = 0
Orton playoff wins with Denver = 0
Tebow playoff wins with Denver = 1

plummer, as with what is going on now with tebow, was not viewed as someone that could win us a SB. which is part why cutler was drafted. another similarity between the two is the fact that like shanahan, fox had to dumb down the playbook for tebow, as shanahan had to do for plummer.

RaiderH8r
03-17-2012, 10:52 AM
It doesn't matter if the Broncos believe in Tebow or not, and let's man up for a second and stop worrying about Tebow's feelings. He's under contract, just the way God wants it. All he has to do to change EFX's collective mind is WIN THE SUPERBOWL (or at least show he can make most of the throws - you know, like stop consistently missing on 5-yard out patterns). As exciting as it is to watch, the reality is that Elway didn't win any champions when he was playing like Tebow (running all over the field). That style was and is very entertaining to watch, but it's not what has the best odds of winning a championship.

This FO wouldn't have drafted TD, would have traded Rod Smith, would have passed on mccaffrey, would have ignored romo and would have cut sharpe. Why? They're f'ing idiots. How would Elway have fared without Rod and Ed? How would he have done without TD? How would he have done without Sharpe? Without Nalen, Zimmerman, Jones, Stink? How would he have done?because that is the task he is setting forth for Tebow so F John Nd his duplicitous bull****. He's a FO money manager now, not a football player.

Bronco Rob
03-17-2012, 10:53 AM
plummer, as with what is going on now with tebow, was not viewed as someone that could win us a SB. which is part why cutler was drafted. another similarity between the two is the fact that like shanahan, fox had to dumb down the playbook for tebow, as shanahan had to do for plummer.


Did they have to "dumb down" the playbook for Orton? I don't want my quarterback to split the atom I just want them to win football games.

RaiderH8r
03-17-2012, 10:56 AM
Did they have to "dumb down" the playbook for Orton?

No, their play book was a solid 1-4 POS and that was perfectly reflected by the record they put up with KO. TT did them a favor.

Drunken.Broncoholic
03-17-2012, 10:58 AM
Manning was Foxs idea? The guy who said they'd be screwed if tebow ran a basic easy traditional run of the mill NFL offense? Duh.

BroncoBeavis
03-17-2012, 10:58 AM
It doesn't matter if the Broncos believe in Tebow or not, and let's man up for a second and stop worrying about Tebow's feelings. He's under contract, just the way God wants it. All he has to do to change EFX's collective mind is WIN THE SUPERBOWL (or at least show he can make most of the throws - you know, like stop consistently missing on 5-yard out patterns). As exciting as it is to watch, the reality is that Elway didn't win any champions when he was playing like Tebow (running all over the field). That style was and is very entertaining to watch, but it's not what has the best odds of winning a championship.

A better argument could be made that Elway didn't win a championship earlier because the franchise relied far too heavily on a HoF caliber quarterback and failed to put the talent around him to go all the way. Elway was maybe the greatest who ever played. And yet he could not win a title without exceptional talent around him, along with maybe the best rushing attack in football.

Elway should know better than this. I think he must be exaggerating his own role in those Lombardis in his head. It was far from a one man show.

BroncoBeavis
03-17-2012, 11:02 AM
Did they have to "dumb down" the playbook for Orton? I don't want my quarterback to split the atom I just want them to win football games.

Reading any McCoy playbook is like trying to decipher a novel written by a functional illiterate. Struggling to understand it isn't an implication of the reader so much as the author. :)

Bronco Rob
03-17-2012, 11:04 AM
No, their play book was a solid 1-4 POS and that was perfectly reflected by the record they put up with KO. TT did them a favor.


Reading any McCoy playbook is like trying to decipher a novel written by a functional illiterate. Struggling to understand it isn't an implication of the reader so much as the author. :)



;)

TonyR
03-17-2012, 11:18 AM
...the best endorsement he can get from the coach and FO is "he's earned the right to be the starter in TC." Not "he's our future starter the next 10-12 years." Not even the starter next season, just the starter heading to TC, which says you can still lose the job. And then they go after Manning even before the draft. Yeah, the Broncos are really showing their belief in Tebow here.

Yup. With me at least you're preaching to the choir. I've been saying this for months, and made a lot of friends along the way.

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showpost.php?p=3487972&postcount=341

errand
03-17-2012, 11:20 AM
There is nowhere else in the league where Tebow will be as accommodated as he will be in Denver, assuming we don't sign Manning, of course.

I agree....maybe Jax, but I don't know any other team that would trade or sign Tebow as their starter, let alone run offense to accomodate his excellent running skills, and rudimentary passing skills.

His options are limited, but that's what being a limited QB should expect.

houghtam
03-17-2012, 11:24 AM
A better argument could be made that Elway didn't win a championship earlier because the franchise relied far too heavily on a HoF caliber quarterback and failed to put the talent around him to go all the way. Elway was maybe the greatest who ever played. And yet he could not win a title without exceptional talent around him, along with maybe the best rushing attack in football.

Elway should know better than this. I think he must be exaggerating his own role in those Lombardis in his head. It was far from a one man show.

NO YOU CAN'T USE LOGIC YOU JERK

barryr
03-17-2012, 11:24 AM
Yup. With me at least you're preaching to the choir. I've been saying this for months, and made a lot of friends along the way.

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showpost.php?p=3487972&postcount=341

They believed Orton "gave them the best chance to win", yes, that Kyle Orton, they felt they had to change the whole playbook to accomodate Tebow, even though I don't remember McDaniels having to feel to do that when Tebow started those 3 games the year before, they proclaim him the starter "going into training camp" and not even the starter for next season meaning he can still lose the job in TC despite just having helped win the organization's first playoff win in 6 years, and going all out to get Manning, and at the same time visiting Weeden, a projected 2nd round pick. And people question why we don't think the Broncos believe in Tebow? How much more evidence is needed?

barryr
03-17-2012, 11:27 AM
A better argument could be made that Elway didn't win a championship earlier because the franchise relied far too heavily on a HoF caliber quarterback and failed to put the talent around him to go all the way. Elway was maybe the greatest who ever played. And yet he could not win a title without exceptional talent around him, along with maybe the best rushing attack in football.

Elway should know better than this. I think he must be exaggerating his own role in those Lombardis in his head. It was far from a one man show.

One would also think Elway would have learned what a conservative, predictable offense does to a QB when the team lacks great talent around him such as most of his days with Reeves and his asked to win the games in the 4th when have no choice but to open things up, but they did that with Tebow, so who knows.

DENVERDUI55
03-17-2012, 11:28 AM
Elway needed to be sold into the idea. He said tebow was his guy for a long time.

ScottXray
03-17-2012, 11:31 AM
Whether it was Elway, Fox or Xanders deciding to go after Manning, it is irrelevant. After he signs with Tenn or SF we have the problem of having a QB that can no longer trust the staff, yet is supposed to be the starter ( going into camp).

It will be interesting to see if they actually try to sign ANY FAs that have even moderate price tags , since they apparently were able to come up with enough money to try for Manning.

If they do sign anybody to help the offense get better ( TE, O line, WR) or sign anything of note on the Defensive side then Maybe they can start to try to win back Tebows and the fans trust. If they also draft a QB high that is impossible ( and would be a waste of a pickl for a non franchise level QB )

If they don't then it becomes clear to Tebow AND the fans that they are either too broke, or too cheap to do so. Empty seats will be the eventual result.

This is not going to end well for EFX, and will be a stain that should result in the firing of one or two. I Think Elway will survive it, and Fox will also for a year or so. Xanders probably gets the axe within a year, although he probably is the least culpable.

BabyTO
03-17-2012, 11:44 AM
Fox although not great has been to the SB. also bowlen wasn't going to bring in a coach just to fire him the next yr.
billick has been to the SB and nobody is even THINKING about offering him a job. and he's done more in his career than fox did. so lets not act like a SB win means anything. especially if you've been absolutely horrendous since then. and that has been the case with fox.

KO5K
03-17-2012, 11:47 AM
It will be interesting to see if they actually try to sign ANY FAs that have even moderate price tags , since they apparently were able to come up with enough money to try for Manning.

If they do sign anybody to help the offense get better ( TE, O line, WR) or sign anything of note on the Defensive side then Maybe they can start to try to win back Tebows and the fans trust. If they also draft a QB high that is impossible ( and would be a waste of a pickl for a non franchise level QB )

That's a good point that I've not thought about.

If they can afford to give Manning a $90 million contract then they can afford to sign some other FA talent to help the team (seeing as that'll be their reasoning for Manning) if we don't get Peyton.

The idea that this team is talented is laughable.

errand
03-17-2012, 11:48 AM
If you're referring to your assumption that barryr is in any way comparing giving Alex Smith time and seeing he's not the QBOTF, and having given Tebow enough time, Tebow was given 14 games, Alex Smith was given 70. Kolb has been in the league 5 years.

In fairness to Kolb, he's had how many starts in his 5 years? Playing behind McNabb (3-5 years ago) doesn't help a young player get alot of playing time. If lack of playing time is why Tebow's not quite there yet, why wouldn't Kolb get same consideration?

As for Smith, he's had how many injuries, OC, and head coaches? Talk about overcoming adversity, he's had to compete virtually every season to keep his job.

RaiderH8r
03-17-2012, 12:44 PM
In fairness to Kolb, he's had how many starts in his 5 years? Playing behind McNabb (3-5 years ago) doesn't help a young player get alot of playing time. If lack of playing time is why Tebow's not quite there yet, why wouldn't Kolb get same consideration?

As for Smith, he's had how many injuries, OC, and head coaches? Talk about overcoming adversity, he's had to compete virtually every season to keep his job.

Wow. That's quite a departure from your tune when it comes to TT.

peacepipe
03-17-2012, 12:45 PM
Did they have to "dumb down" the playbook for Orton? I don't want my quarterback to split the atom I just want them to win football games.no,but tebow on the otherhand....

Bronco Rob
03-17-2012, 12:57 PM
no,but tebow on the otherhand....



And how did that work out for us?

st.bernard
03-17-2012, 12:59 PM
I do have to agree that EFX has pretty much kicked TT to the curb. How will any future signing see EFX now that they have broken faith?

Bronco Rob
03-17-2012, 01:03 PM
I do have to agree that EFX has pretty much kicked TT to the curb. Wow will any future signing see EFX now that they have broken faith?




This isn't an episode of touched by an Angel. This is the NFL for crying out loud I'm sure after Xanders & Tebow share a box of Junior mints and watch 'The Notebook' they'll kiss and make up.

peacepipe
03-17-2012, 01:04 PM
And how did that work out for us?how did it work out once teams figured out TT? how did it work out once teams realized TT is a limited QB?

peacepipe
03-17-2012, 01:05 PM
I do have to agree that EFX has pretty much kicked TT to the curb. How will any future signing see EFX now that they have broken faith?

most players know if they were in EFXs shoes they would be doing the samething.

Bronco Rob
03-17-2012, 01:09 PM
how did it work out once teams figured out TT? how did it work out once teams realized TT is a limited QB?



I guess Dick LaBeau didn't get that memo.

peacepipe
03-17-2012, 01:12 PM
I guess Dick LaBeau didn't get that memo.LOL a fluke game. how did he do against NE,who had the worst defense or 2nd to worst defense in the league? what was 9-36?

Bronco Rob
03-17-2012, 01:14 PM
LOL a fluke game. how did he do against NE,who had the worst defense or 2nd to worst defense in the league? T-36?



Let me get this straight. Beating the defending AFC champions in the playoffs is a fluke?

RaiderH8r
03-17-2012, 01:18 PM
LOL a fluke game. how did he do against NE,who had the worst defense or 2nd to worst defense in the league? what was 9-36?

Speaking of figured out, Von and the rest of the D missed a great, 6 TD performance by Brady in that game. They should have shown up to see it.

Bronco Rob
03-17-2012, 01:25 PM
Speaking of figured out, Von and the rest of the D missed a great, 6 TD performance by Brady in that game. They should have shown up to see it.


Funny how people glossed over that fact. Dennis Allen's inability to cobble together some sort of defense to at least slow down the short to intermediate routes had no determining factor on the outcome of the game.

Circle Orange
03-17-2012, 01:39 PM
So, let me see if I got this right.

Fox was all for it, Elway was neutral, and Bowlen was (enthused/cooperative with Fox, pick one). Then Elway went along with the bunch, and they presented a united front (Which all management teams do despite internal disagreement).

Ha. Just curious to see what happens with Tebow after all this nonsense. Because if they don't sign Manning SOMEbody is gonna look awful stupid having to face Tebow this offseason. Bringing in competition is one thing, but this slobbering, craving need for Manning is something else.

NUB
03-17-2012, 01:51 PM
I have a hard time grasping this. Denver was a 1-4, bottom-tier team spiraling toward another top-5 draft pick before the QB change. Tebow did a lot of good work (playoffs, anyone?) for a 2nd-year QB coming out of no-offseason. Why is there no desire to invest in him as a player? I look at this guy and see a big playmaker, good decision maker, a leader, a natural athlete, and an unshakeable confidence. You make him a 55% passer alone and you easily have one of the most 'unstoppable' forces in the entire league, by far.

peacepipe
03-17-2012, 01:54 PM
Speaking of figured out, Von and the rest of the D missed a great, 6 TD performance by Brady in that game. They should have shown up to see it.

granted def played terribly,but that doesn't excuse the poor play of tebow. tebow had one of his usual poor games 9-26 passing, 7/18 3rd down conv. against one of the worst defenses last year.

SoCalBronco
03-17-2012, 01:59 PM
Let them eat static, Tim.

Well...that's not his style and it wouldn't be good PR (this is above all a PR war), but more than a small part of me would enjoy seeing him diss them.

Bronco Rob
03-17-2012, 02:12 PM
I love how everyone assumes what Tim Tebow is feeling or thinking at any given time. After the scrutiny he we went under I'm pretty sure he showed he is quite thick-skinned and a consummate professional.


I'm of the opinion that he seems to operate better under adversity and could care less about his feelings. He only needs to concern himself with improving his footwork and his throwing motion.



;D

doonwise
03-17-2012, 02:16 PM
This FO wouldn't have drafted TD, would have traded Rod Smith, would have passed on mccaffrey, would have ignored romo and would have cut sharpe. Why? They're f'ing idiots. How would Elway have fared without Rod and Ed? How would he have done without TD? How would he have done without Sharpe? Without Nalen, Zimmerman, Jones, Stink? How would he have done?because that is the task he is setting forth for Tebow so F John Nd his duplicitous bull****. He's a FO money manager now, not a football player.

Are you just making this up as you go? You have absolutely no way of knowing if any of those statements are true or not. You might as well also add, 'this front office wouldn't have drafted Elway.'

RaiderH8r
03-17-2012, 02:32 PM
Are you just making this up as you go? You have absolutely no way of knowing if any of those statements are true or not. You might as well also add, 'this front office wouldn't have drafted Elway.'

No, they would have inherited him, let him play 16 games over two seasons, had him salvage a 1-4 start into a division title and home playoff win, tentatively give him the nod for TC, and then make an aggressive play for Fouts to replace him in the offseason. Bright guys that they are.

barryr
03-17-2012, 02:34 PM
I love how everyone assumes what Tim Tebow is feeling or thinking at any given time. After the scrutiny he we went under I'm pretty sure he showed he is quite thick-skinned and a consummate professional.


I'm of the opinion that he seems to operate better under adversity and could care less about his feelings. He only needs to concern himself with improving his footwork and his throwing motion.



;D

I don't know about others, but being criticized about your play is not what I have talked about in regards to Tebow. Being told one thing and then the FO does another is hardly just something that anyone just shrug their shoulders and has nothing to do with feelings as it does trust. People around here may think trust isn't important in regards to a healthy team atmosphere, but it is and important for future deals with other players from teams who may ever decide to come to the Broncos. Maybe you don't like being lied to or at least being led to believe something that wasn't trus, but most people don't appreciate that and interested in bending down to take more.

Bronco Rob
03-17-2012, 02:38 PM
I don't know about others, but being criticized about your play is not what I have talked about in regards to Tebow. Being told one thing and then the FO does another is hardly just something that anyone just shrug their shoulders and has nothing to do with feelings as it does trust. People around here may think trust isn't important in regards to a healthy team atmosphere, but it is and important for future deals with other players from teams who may ever decide to come to the Broncos. Maybe you don't like being lied to or at least being led to believe something that wasn't trus, but most people don't appreciate that and interested in bending down to take more.



And bear in mind this is all being played out in the arena of public opinion. Also I fail to see how the pursuit of Peyton Manning creates an atmosphere of dishonesty?

R8R H8R
03-17-2012, 02:41 PM
I don't know what all the fuss is about. So what if Fox was the driving force behind all this? All it tells me is that the FO is fully behind their coach, and getting him the players he wants.

That sure beats the hell out of regimes that force certain players on their coaches that the coach doesn't want. IE, the late Crazy Al, Jerry Jones at times, and Bud Adams with Vince Young, just to name a few.

Relax, this much adeau about nothing, IMO.

barryr
03-17-2012, 02:46 PM
And bear in mind this is all being played out in the arena of public opinion. Also I fail to see how the pursuit of Peyton Manning creates an atmosphere of dishonesty?

Because Tebow was told publicly he was the starter going into TC, but the signing of Manning changes that. Signing another QB to take the job away before TC kind of goes against that.

Didn't they state they had to change the whole offense for him because he couldn't run a conventional offense? That shows belief?

They are putting off doing much in FA right now when there are holes on this team that need to be filled no matter who is at QB, yet they are spending the majority of the time worrying about Manning? That shows belief in Tebow or a team that really wants a new QB? You think this roster pretty much as is is really Super Bowl bound?

If Manning doesn't sign, they go back to Tebow can tell him they really believe in him and he can really believe that? He already thought the starting job was taken away from him last season and now this. But he is a professional so being misled by his coach and FO is apparently just a part of being in the NFL. Whatever.

bombay
03-17-2012, 02:48 PM
I call bull****. They couldn't have just decided to go after Manning after seeing the presser. I have to believe this chase has been planned and talked about within the organization since the end of last season.

Yep. And since when does anyone pay any attention to woody.

Bronco Rob
03-17-2012, 03:03 PM
Because Tebow was told publicly he was the starter going into TC, but the signing of Manning changes that. Signing another QB to take the job away before TC kind of goes against that.

Didn't they state they had to change the whole offense for him because he couldn't run a conventional offense? That shows belief?

They are putting off doing much in FA right now when there are holes on this team that need to be filled no matter who is at QB, yet they are spending the majority of the time worrying about Manning? That shows belief in Tebow or a team that really wants a new QB? You think this roster pretty much as is is really Super Bowl bound?

If Manning doesn't sign, they go back to Tebow can tell him they really believe in him and he can really believe that? He already thought the starting job was taken away from him last season and now this. But he is a professional so being misled by his coach and FO is apparently just a part of being in the NFL. Whatever.



Always someone nipping at your heels to take your job. Either embrace it and let it motivate you or feel sorry for yourself and crumble under the pressure. Tebow has done well under pressure so this will only serve to make him a better player.

R8R H8R
03-17-2012, 03:14 PM
I call bull****. They couldn't have just decided to go after Manning after seeing the presser. I have to believe this chase has been planned and talked about within the organization since the end of last season.

I agree with this. I don't believe that the Broncos never thought about Manning until the PC like Woody leads us to believe. However, I do think he is partially right in that it's possible that the Broncos were not "all in" until Fox showed his full support.

I think it's clear that this FO(E & X) has complete faith and respect in Fox, and when he declared that he wants PM at any cost, then I think that is when they drew up a plan to try to get him.

I have no problem with all of this. I don't know why anyone would, unless of course, they just don't want Manning on the team.

bpc
03-17-2012, 03:19 PM
Let them eat static, Tim.

Well...that's not his style and it wouldn't be good PR (this is above all a PR war), but more than a small part of me would enjoy seeing him diss them.

And we'll get the angry Tebow hating Bronco fans who call him unprofessional after getting dicked by the team, just like with Cutler in the McDaniels tiff.

The great news is Tebow will only say and probably think good things where the rest of would probably tell the FO to stick it where the sun doesn't shine.

I wish our FO wasn't a bunch of cowherds. I'm getting the same feeling from them that I got from McDaniels, talk out of both sides of their mouth, or words to this extent and actions that show differently.

bpc
03-17-2012, 03:23 PM
For the record, i don't blame anybody for going after a Peyton Manning. That's like going after Michael Jordan, or Babe Ruth if they were FA's.

With that being said, when we swing and miss on him, the retribution this failed attempt will cause on the moral and direction of this team will be fierce. We haven't even taken into account that our whole FO has been pandering at Peyton's feet all week and ignoring all the other holes we have on our roster including HB, FB, WR, TE, OL, DL, LB and DB. Hell, they couldn't even gather the balls to sign our kicker to a long term contract with $40 million dollars of cap space.

BROKE!

Bronco Rob
03-17-2012, 03:28 PM
Its managements job to make the team the best it can be through personnel and coaching. Teams that get caught up in worrying about players feelings because the possibility of bringing in someone else who can improve upon a position WILL NOT and CANNOT win a championship that way. Management must always look to make the team better regardless of who might lose their job, be it a player or a coach.

SoCalBronco
03-17-2012, 03:28 PM
For the record, i don't blame anybody for going after a Peyton Manning. That's like going after Michael Jordan, or Babe Ruth if they were FA's.

With that being said, when we swing and miss on him, the retribution this failed attempt will cause on the moral and direction of this team will be fierce. We haven't even taken into account that our whole FO has been pandering at Peyton's feet all week and ignoring all the other holes we have on our roster including HB, FB, WR, TE, OL, DL, LB and DB. Hell, they couldn't even gather the balls to sign our kicker to a long term contract with $40 million dollars of cap space.

BROKE!

Yep, that is the biggest thing is that they are seemingly so wrapped up in everything Manning related, it is going to make it difficult to address other areas if this keeps dragging on and on as the talent pool will become more shallow.

I actually would rather them not sign Manning because of the medical issues age issues and also the cost issues. The old man isn't going to sink 25m into Manning AND THEN spend the other 20m we have under the cap. Its obvious that no matter what happens, at the end of the summer, we're still going to be substantially under the cap. That's how he's played it for a long time and this is the last year before the cap floor so he's going to milk it. So if we're only going to use about half of this money we've got, then I'd rather have them get 4 really good players at multiple positions than one QB who has some issues. We've got too many holes to make these sort of one-shot gambles. Get 4 really good players and plug alot of holes. That's the better way to do it. We're not one guy away. You plug 4 holes in FA and plug them seriously, not with **** like re-signing Joe Mays etc....make a serious effort at these things and then in the draft if you can plug another 2-3 holes, then between all of this you've used your money wisely by spreading it out and you've addressed alot of areas, all the while making sure we're still 20m under so the bean counters in the org. are still happy.

ScottXray
03-17-2012, 03:30 PM
granted def played terribly,but that doesn't excuse the poor play of tebow. tebow had one of his usual poor games 9-26 passing, 7/18 3rd down conv. against one of the worst defenses last year.

New England played in our backfield all night. Tebow rarely had even 2 seconds to throw the ball, and how many RBs got stuffed for negative yards?

sorry ...It was a total team failure on ALL levels but the Defense and O-line were HORRIBLE.

Kuper going out was a key,,,,but that just illustrates how poor our depth is.

RaiderH8r
03-17-2012, 03:35 PM
Yep, that is the biggest thing is that they are seemingly so wrapped up in everything Manning related, it is going to make it difficult to address other areas if this keeps dragging on and on as the talent pool will become more shallow.

I actually would rather them not sign Manning because of the medical issues age issues and also the cost issues. The old man isn't going to sink 25m into Manning AND THEN spend the other 20m we have under the cap. Its obvious that no matter what happens, at the end of the summer, we're still going to be substantially under the cap. That's how he's played it for a long time and this is the last year before the cap floor so he's going to milk it. So if we're only going to use about half of this money we've got, then I'd rather have them get 4 really good players at multiple positions than one QB who has some issues. We've got too many holes to make these sort of one-shot gambles. Get 4 really good players and plug alot of holes. That's the better way to do it. We're not one guy away. You plug 4 holes in FA and plug them seriously, not with **** like re-signing Joe Mays etc....make a serious effort at these things and then in the draft if you can plug another 2-3 holes, then between all of this you've used your money wisely by spreading it out and you've addressed alot of areas, all the while making sure we're still 20m under so the bean counters in the org. are still happy.

Yes, yes, yes.

bpc
03-17-2012, 03:49 PM
Its managements job to make the team the best it can be through personnel and coaching. Teams that get caught up in worrying about players feelings because the possibility of bringing in someone else who can improve upon a position WILL NOT and CANNOT win a championship that way. Management must always look to make the team better regardless of who might lose their job, be it a player or a coach.

You should have stopped after the first sentence because we are EPICLY failing managing personnel. We haven't ADDED any players. If we add Manning, i will amend my stance but chances of that happening IMO should be 20% or less. This team is not talented which Manning probably can see as well. We haven't made any significant FA pickups over the last two years so why would Peyton take a lot of money from us to work for a franchise that won't pay out annually for players despite having the room to do so? We're a year removed from the 2nd overall draft pick. Two things changed this year... coaching and the QB. The talent is still horrible overall.

ol#7
03-17-2012, 04:07 PM
You should have stopped after the first sentence because we are EPICLY failing managing personnel. We haven't ADDED any players. If we add Manning, i will amend my stance but chances of that happening IMO should be 20% or less. This team is not talented which Manning probably can see as well. We haven't made any significant FA pickups over the last two years so why would Peyton take a lot of money from us to work for a franchise that won't pay out annually for players despite having the room to do so? We're a year removed from the 2nd overall draft pick. Two things changed this year... coaching and the QB. The talent is still horrible overall.

Exactly.

Also for all those who keep making the argument that it doesn't matter, you try and make every position better each year, just how much did you LOVE using a 1st round pick on Tommy Maddox back in the day?

Bronco Rob
03-17-2012, 04:12 PM
You should have stopped after the first sentence because we are EPICLY failing managing personnel. We haven't ADDED any players. If we add Manning, i will amend my stance but chances of that happening IMO should be 20% or less. This team is not talented which Manning probably can see as well. We haven't made any significant FA pickups over the last two years so why would Peyton take a lot of money from us to work for a franchise that won't pay out annually for players despite having the room to do so? We're a year removed from the 2nd overall draft pick. Two things changed this year... coaching and the QB. The talent is still horrible overall.



Management will not always make the right decisions. But if they feel there is a player out there that can improve the team and they don't go for it they have already failed.

Cito Pelon
03-17-2012, 04:18 PM
Whoever it was that floated the idea to sign Peyton Manning is an idiot.

Agamemnon
03-17-2012, 04:23 PM
Management will not always make the right decisions.

In the case of the various people running the Broncos for the past decade plus, they will very rarely make the right decisions.

Agamemnon
03-17-2012, 04:24 PM
Whoever it was that floated the idea to sign Peyton Manning is an idiot.

Yes. But 80% of the dip****s on this board thought it was a good idea, so don't expect many sympathetic ears.

Taco John
03-18-2012, 01:17 PM
Whoever it was that floated the idea to sign Peyton Manning is an idiot.

Totally disagree. I think it's a risky move if you're sold that Tebow is the future. It's a relatively zero risk move if you intend to go in a different direction as soon as you can.

The bottom line is that the Broncos don't trust Tim Tebow.

stopgap
03-18-2012, 02:28 PM
Yes. But 80% of the dip****s on this board thought it was a good idea, so don't expect many sympathetic ears.



Cry more

barryr
03-18-2012, 02:30 PM
Totally disagree. I think it's a risky move if you're sold that Tebow is the future. It's a relatively zero risk move if you intend to go in a different direction as soon as you can.

The bottom line is that the Broncos don't trust Tim Tebow.

And they want a pure pocket passer, which Tebow is probably never really going to be that kind of QB.