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View Full Version : Can we lay the "Bowlen is Cheap" thing to rest?


Killericon
03-13-2012, 08:51 PM
He's chasing Manning, who will probably command more than $20 million a season. I can't see how you could still think he's cheap after following the Manning saga unfold.

Gcver2ver3
03-13-2012, 08:54 PM
chasing and signing are two different things....

if we sign PM, maybe i'll be more open to giving out kudos...

SoCalBronco
03-13-2012, 08:55 PM
He's chasing Manning, who will probably command more than $20 million a season. I can't see how you could still think he's cheap after following the Manning saga unfold.

Umm..how bout because its sort of a one time deal and that even if they signed him for 20m, they would still be MORE than 20m below the cap and over the course of like 12 years, he's only spent a lot of money relative to the rest of the league like 2 times and he's averaged somewhere around 20th in the league over that span.

So yeah...he's a cheapskate...even with Manning. I'm not sure how one signing magically changes like 12 years of history.

Doggcow
03-13-2012, 08:55 PM
As vjack, finnegan, and carr drop off the board...

Heyneck
03-13-2012, 08:55 PM
He's chasing Manning, who will probably command more than $20 million a season. I can't see how you could still think he's cheap after following the Manning saga unfold.

There are talks of him paying Manning a 4 year 90 mil...with 45 mil guarantee. He is not cheap... now,... he has gone full retard.

Hamrob
03-13-2012, 08:56 PM
Please, let's see the action first.

Right now....who have we signed????

Hear that bird? Cheap, cheap, cheap goes Bowlen!

Let's see him sign Manning and make a few other moves first.

Color me pestimistic!

PS. Who have we signed already?

Killericon
03-13-2012, 08:56 PM
Umm..how bout because its sort of a one time deal and that even if they signed him for 20m, they would still be MORE than 20m below the cap and over the course of like 12 years, he's only spent a lot of money relative to the rest of the league like 2 times and he's averaged somewhere around 20th in the league over that span.

So yeah...he's a cheapskate...even with Manning. I'm not sure how one signing magically changes like 12 years of history.

12 years? Come on, the cheap thing started 5 years ago at the worst. Bowlen was throwing money after money at the problem in the early parts of the last decade.

Lycan
03-13-2012, 08:58 PM
The fact that we are 40 million under the cap and pursuing one guy is pissing me off a bit.

I know you don't want to go overboard in FA but still, this team needs some talent.

We are not 1 crippled Peyton and some rookies away from a Superbowl IMO.

KevinJames
03-13-2012, 08:58 PM
Im watching many FAs get overpaid today I don't think hes cheap I think hes just smart.

The best FAs aka the value guys will come in the next few days.

SoCalBronco
03-13-2012, 08:58 PM
12 years? Come on, the cheap thing started 5 years ago at the worst. Bowlen was throwing money after money at the problem in the early parts of the last decade.

No it didn't start five years ago. I've posted the data numerous times. Use the search function and type in USA Today Salary Database. I went through it in massive detail. There's a massive year (2002), one other really good year, one ok year and the rest are WAY below average. You don't need like 8 or 9 way below average years to simply "make up" for the dead money effects of two really big years. That's absurd. He's a cheap POS dude, either that or his business interests are taking a hit or he's operating the team very inefficiently (this is true, look at Drek's posts about Bowlen and operating income (low) vs. revenues (high) and debt (low). Look at Footsteps post awhile back about the leveraging stuff and the stadium stuff, too. It's all there dude, you just dont want to see it.

BTW I am NOT ragging on him for not making a splash today sicne its just Day 1 and there's a ways to go but there's a ton of bad history here.

SoDak Bronco
03-13-2012, 08:58 PM
As vjack, finnegan, and carr drop off the board...

“@PriscoCBS: Too many teams overpaid today. Like always. Smart teams sit back and watch.”

Hamrob
03-13-2012, 08:59 PM
[QUOTE=Heyneck;3515773] Dude, your avatar is hypnotic!

spdirty
03-13-2012, 08:59 PM
we'll see what he does.

Heyneck
03-13-2012, 09:00 PM
[QUOTE=Heyneck;3515773] Dude, your avatar is hypnotic!

you are welcome! :wave:

Hamrob
03-13-2012, 09:00 PM
Im watching many FAs get overpaid today I don't think hes cheap I think hes just smart.

The best FAs aka the value guys will come in the next few days.Dude, pull your head out of you ass. You've baught into that crap...let's sign everybody's rejects to 4yr $10m deals. Oh, boy we are smart!!!Hilarious!

Dukes
03-13-2012, 09:01 PM
Seems to me that he's tired of being burned by high priced free agents who can't live up to their contracts. How many years did he let Shanny waste his money by building a team through free agency only to be left with nothing.

Some say he's cheap, others say he's being smarter with his money.

DBroncos4life
03-13-2012, 09:01 PM
“@PriscoCBS: Too many teams overpaid today. Like always. Smart teams sit back and watch.”

I like how it went from you don't build championship teams by over spending for FAs to we are dooooooooommmmmmmeddddd. Green Bay, Giants, NE, Pitt haven't made moves I guess they are F'd.

spdirty
03-13-2012, 09:01 PM
I think if we get Peyton we won't have much cap space because we'll be going for it now.

StugotsIII
03-13-2012, 09:02 PM
The Eagles broke the bank last year and it really worked wonders for them...

Heyneck
03-13-2012, 09:03 PM
I like how it went from you don't build championship teams by over spending for FAs to we are dooooooooommmmmmmeddddd. Green Bay, Giants, NE, Pitt haven't made moves I guess they are F'd.

yeah but you at least try to fill 1 or 2 holes in FA so you can position yourself in the draft to take the BPA. Sry you don't get that.

DBroncos4life
03-13-2012, 09:03 PM
The Eagles broke the bank last year and it really worked wonders for them...

I think they will be much better this year.

Lev Vyvanse
03-13-2012, 09:04 PM
I think we have to right? Would someone who was cheap ever spend zero dollars?

Hamrob
03-13-2012, 09:04 PM
“@PriscoCBS: Too many teams overpaid today. Like always. Smart teams sit back and watch.”Yep, that's what all the teams that sit back and watch say. ^5

Look, if you are sitting back and watching...you better have Drew Brees, Tom Brady, Eli Manning, Aaron Rogers, the 49ers defense, the Ravens defense, Ben Roethlesberger/Steeler defense etc.

The teams that needs to step up are the teams that are talent starved = Broncos!

Getting Manning is no sure fire thing. Even if we get him, we'd better have a top 10 defense, because there is going to be plenty of growing pains from our offense.

DBroncos4life
03-13-2012, 09:05 PM
yeah but you at least try to fill 1 or 2 holes in FA so you can position yourself in the draft to take the BPA. Sry you don't get that.

Oh so FA is a one day thing? I've seen WR and S go off the FA board. Are those are only holes?

Heyneck
03-13-2012, 09:05 PM
I think if we get Peyton we won't have much cap space because we'll be going for it now.

if we sign Peyton we should still have 25+ million. More than enough to at least fill 1 or 2 important holes on the roster.

Heyneck
03-13-2012, 09:07 PM
Oh so FA is a one day thing? I've seen WR and S go off the FA board. Are those are only holes?

Nope...but those are the glaring holes we have on our team. Did you see the contract they gave Wayne? We could have done better!

Hamrob
03-13-2012, 09:07 PM
Seems to me that he's tired of being burned by high priced free agents who can't live up to their contracts. How many years did he let Shanny waste his money by building a team through free agency only to be left with nothing.

Some say he's cheap, others say he's being smarter with his money.Yet, others say he's broke...you know "Cash strapped". I heard he was meeting with a major national bank, just in case he needed to take out a loan to pay Manning is signing bonus!

Dukes
03-13-2012, 09:08 PM
Yet, others say he's broke...you know "Cash strapped". I heard he was meeting with a major national bank, just in case he needed to take out a loan to pay Manning is signing bonus!

I bet he brought Elway on just for his wallet too.

DBroncos4life
03-13-2012, 09:08 PM
Nope...but those are the glaring holes we have on our team. Did you see the contract they gave Wayne? We could have done better!

I thought you didn't want old Colts players. ROFL!

Heyneck
03-13-2012, 09:10 PM
I thought you didn't want old Colts players. ROFL!

He was the last worthy WR available...

Hamrob
03-13-2012, 09:11 PM
He was the last worthy WR available...I'll tell you who I would go sign tomorrow....if we got Manning!

BRANDON LLOYD

One of the best WR's in the league who gets little to no credit!

He's still out there....and he's better than Wayne right now!

Dukes
03-13-2012, 09:12 PM
I'll tell you who I would go sign tomorrow....if we got Manning!

BRANDON LLOYD

One of the best WR's in the league who gets little to no credit!

He's still out there....and he's better than Wayne right now!

Manning to LLoyd would be a good combo. I'm pretty sure someone on the radio said Lloyd would be willing to come back to Denver if Manning signed.

DBroncos4life
03-13-2012, 09:13 PM
He was the last worthy WR available...

Mario Manningham, Lloyd, Laurent Robinson, Robert Meachem, Braylon Edwards, and drug lord Jerome Simpson are still out there.

BroncoBeavis
03-13-2012, 09:14 PM
Nope...but those are the glaring holes we have on our team. Did you see the contract they gave Wayne? We could have done better!

With our cap space we should've been all over VJ. Then you could take or leave Wayne if PM came on.

Now you have to look at this team and think WTF would Peyton do with this?

Heyneck
03-13-2012, 09:15 PM
Mario Manningham, Lloyd, Laurent Robinson, Robert Meachem, Braylon Edwards, and drug lord Jerome Simpson are still out there.

Of the above the one I would like would be Robert Meachem. But reports point to him signing with BUF by tomorrow. The others are barely worth going after.

houghtam
03-13-2012, 09:15 PM
A bunch of smart stuff with evidence

*crickets*

Hamrob
03-13-2012, 09:18 PM
With our cap space we should've been all over VJ. Then you could take or leave Wayne if PM came on.

Now you have to look at this team and think WTF would Peyton do with this?Not really:

D. Thomas is a flippen stud
E. Decker will play the slot
Moreno/Magahee/Fannin toting the rock
Julius Thomas is going to break out this year (my opinion)

We need a #2 receiver. We can get a #4/#5 in the draft

There's plenty to work with...we just need a pinch here and there. But, we need Elway to get off his arse and get in the game...past Manning.

Heyneck
03-13-2012, 09:19 PM
I'll tell you who I would go sign tomorrow....if we got Manning!

BRANDON LLOYD

One of the best WR's in the league who gets little to no credit!

He's still out there....and he's better than Wayne right now!

Would love Lloyd. But I think be burned the bridge there.

Hamrob
03-13-2012, 09:19 PM
Of the above the one I would like would be Robert Meachem. But reports point to him signing with BUF by tomorrow. The others are barely worth going after.Wow! How can you say that about Lloyd?

Hamrob
03-13-2012, 09:20 PM
Would love Lloyd. But I think be burned the bridge there. I don't think so. His deal was a Tebow/Orton deal. Both of those guys would be gone....if we signed Manning.

Heyneck
03-13-2012, 09:21 PM
Wow! How can you say that about Lloyd?

Look at the post above!

DBroncos4life
03-13-2012, 09:22 PM
Of the above the one I would like would be Robert Meachem. But reports point to him signing with BUF by tomorrow. The others are barely worth going after.

You don't like Robinson's 11 tds? The kid can play.

NFLBRONCO
03-13-2012, 09:23 PM
9news mentioned 3 yrs 65 mil asking price

gunns
03-13-2012, 09:24 PM
Umm..how bout because its sort of a one time deal and that even if they signed him for 20m, they would still be MORE than 20m below the cap and over the course of like 12 years, he's only spent a lot of money relative to the rest of the league like 2 times and he's averaged somewhere around 20th in the league over that span.

So yeah...he's a cheapskate...even with Manning. I'm not sure how one signing magically changes like 12 years of history.

And one signing is not going to change much, not matter what you think of Manning. If we're still 20 mil below the cap even after signing him why the hell aren't we picking up the talent that is falling off the board, that is probably more important than that one signing.

Heyneck
03-13-2012, 09:24 PM
I don't think so. His deal was a Tebow/Orton deal. Both of those guys would be gone....if we signed Manning.

Yeah I don't think he has a buff with us. The FO has a buff with him. They said they wanted to look at the young guys. I don't see how the revisit him again. Unless Peyton tell us too. But we all know Lloyd has a hard on for McD...so he will probably give the Pats all the chance in the world to sign him. Would love Lloyd. Just don't think it a realistic option.

gunns
03-13-2012, 09:26 PM
Mario Manningham, Lloyd, Laurent Robinson, Robert Meachem, Braylon Edwards, and drug lord Jerome Simpson are still out there.

I wouldn't mind Robinson but it's sickening talking about offense watching the defensive guys drop off.

houghtam
03-13-2012, 09:26 PM
it's sickening talking about offense watching the defensive guys drop off.

this

Heyneck
03-13-2012, 09:27 PM
You don't like Robinson's 11 tds? The kid can play.

Not sure what to think about him. Could he be another Miles Austin? (overrated by the way). Plus he is getting game from more than 2 teams...not including us. So if he is really good and we should be intrested.... the FO should get a move on. Seeing how the developments are unfolding... I doubt it.

Gcver2ver3
03-13-2012, 09:28 PM
9news mentioned 3 yrs 65 mil asking price

done...

go_broncos
03-13-2012, 09:28 PM
He's chasing Manning, who will probably command more than $20 million a season. I can't see how you could still think he's cheap after following the Manning saga unfold.

It's all part of the plan...I am amazed that posters like you still believe in our Front Office..

ZONA
03-13-2012, 09:30 PM
12 years? Come on, the cheap thing started 5 years ago at the worst. Bowlen was throwing money after money at the problem in the early parts of the last decade.

That was Shanny throwing away Bowlens money, lol.

Requiem
03-13-2012, 09:44 PM
Not saying that Bowlen isn't cheap, but uh. . . maybe the other big named FA don't give a piss about us. :D

UberBroncoMan
03-13-2012, 09:49 PM
As vjack, finnegan, and carr drop off the board...

To be fair. Finnegan is getting 10m a year. **** that.

baja
03-13-2012, 09:51 PM
[QUOTE=Heyneck;3515773] Dude, your avatar is hypnotic!

Especially the one on the right. She looks like she could wear the chrome off a door knob in under 10 minutes.

canadianbroncosfan
03-13-2012, 09:54 PM
You don't like Robinson's 11 tds? The kid can play.

I was going to say, he was a stud the last half of the season. 858 yards and 11 TDs as a number three (number two when Bryant got hurt). He is fast too.

canadianbroncosfan
03-13-2012, 09:59 PM
To be fair. Finnegan is getting 10m a year. **** that.

Exactly, I'm not disappointed we didn't compete with this.

Carr was Dallas bound from the second Free Agency opened (perhaps before based on how quickly Jones had him on a flight to big D).

As far as Jackson, yes we could've competed money wise but who knows if he was interested. At this point, Denver's offense isn't that appealing to a wide receiver.

BroncoBeavis
03-13-2012, 10:02 PM
Exactly, I'm not disappointed we didn't compete with this.

Carr was Dallas bound from the second Free Agency opened (perhaps before based on how quickly Jones had him on a flight to big D).

As far as Jackson, yes we could've competed money wise but who knows if he was interested. At this point, Denver's offense isn't that appealing to a wide receiver.

I'll guarantee you they didn't even talk with VJ. The sum total of their acquisition plan is to become the Broncolts.

canadianbroncosfan
03-13-2012, 10:07 PM
I'll guarantee you they didn't even talk with VJ. The sum total of their acquisition plan is to become the Broncolts.

Who knows. I'm not going to hold anyone's feet to the flames over "assuming" they didn't do anything. He was a Bucc two and a half hours into the day, who knows if any other teams got a sniff.

Drunken.Broncoholic
03-13-2012, 10:10 PM
Not saying that Bowlen isn't cheap, but uh. . . maybe the other big named FA don't give a piss about us. :D

This.


We saw this effect last year when it came to head coaches too.. It wasn't like fox was Elways first choice. Harbaugh and others "politely" declined.

KevinJames
03-13-2012, 10:32 PM
Dude, pull your head out of you ass. You've baught into that crap...let's sign everybody's rejects to 4yr $10m deals. Oh, boy we are smart!!!Hilarious!

Yep, that's what all the teams that sit back and watch say. ^5

Look, if you are sitting back and watching...you better have Drew Brees, Tom Brady, Eli Manning, Aaron Rogers, the 49ers defense, the Ravens defense, Ben Roethlesberger/Steeler defense etc.

The teams that needs to step up are the teams that are talent starved = Broncos!

Getting Manning is no sure fire thing. Even if we get him, we'd better have a top 10 defense, because there is going to be plenty of growing pains from our offense.


Take a look at the guys that signed today

Cortland Finnegan | CB
Carlos Rogers | CB

Both not worth the money they got especially Cortland. Some of the CBs left are just as talented as both of these guys.

WR we don't really need but did you see Garcon's contract yeah no not worth it....

no DL changed teams

no LB changed teams except some scrub

no OL changed teams

no S changed teams

clearly Bowlen is cheap ...... Hilarious! the Eagles won free agency last year and lost regular season. Giants lost free agency last year and won the SB. Spending early is highly overrated. Just because you have the money you don't spend it on 3 or 4 players only. If we get Peyton, you think the Broncos only wanna bring in 2 or 3 really great players? No I think they would rather bring in Peyton and bring in some solid good FAs.

Just because its not a big name doesn't mean they are not good players, plenty of guys I would love the Broncos to get out there that aren't big names and would be automatic starters.

BroncoBeavis
03-13-2012, 10:35 PM
Take a look at the guys that signed today

WR we don't really need but did you see Garcon's contract yeah no not worth it....

OK, you want to run 4 wide. You've got Peyton Manning after all.

Name them. Try not to laugh.

houghtam
03-13-2012, 10:41 PM
OK, you want to run 4 wide. You've got Peyton Manning after all.

Name them. Try not to laugh.

Wait a sec I got this

Tim Tebow

canadianbroncosfan
03-13-2012, 10:41 PM
OK, you want to run 4 wide. You've got Peyton Manning after all.

Name them. Try not to laugh.

Right now, WR isn't our top priority, Manning is. If we don't get Manning, what would we use guys like Vincent Jackson for?

houghtam
03-13-2012, 10:42 PM
Right now, WR isn't our top priority, Manning is. If we don't get Manning, what would we use guys like Vincent Jackson for?

Wait a sec I got this

Tim Tebow

Kaylore
03-13-2012, 10:43 PM
No one will convince SoCal of otherwise. Everyone knows Shanahan had the power to sign whoever he wanted. Everyone knows if there was even an inkling of Bowlen shutting down a free agent or extension due to funding at the very least Schefter would have leaked, and in all likelihood the entire local media would have found out. Shanahan controlled the media pretty well and he would not have tolerated any kind of interference from Bowlen. I remember that quote Shanahan's last year when Bowlen said Shanahan asked him to remodel the facilities at Dove Valley despite them being seven years old. Bowlen and Shanahan both said that was the first time Bowlen said no to him. Don't tell SoCal that, it will ruin his fantasy.

The truth about the cap is there were years we were cap strapped because Shanahan had one of the worst track records of free agent scouting in the NFL and after he'd blow his load on garbage, two years later when we were cutting it we had no room to do anything. No one can name a single free agent we wanted that we didn't sign due to Bowlen. Not a one.

But SoCal is mad at Bowlen for firing Shanahan and trading Cutler so he's revising history for himself to justify hating Bowlen and if you argue anything to the contrary, he'll just put his fingers in ears and scream "Nuh uh! Nuh Uh! USA TODAY says he didn't so he didn't! Bowlen sucks and is dumb stupid an I hate em!"

:)

BroncoBeavis
03-13-2012, 10:44 PM
Right now, WR isn't our top priority, Manning is. If we don't get Manning, what would we use guys like Vincent Jackson for?

Oh, I don't know... giving our QB a shot in hell of finding an open receiver?

You can't develop a QB with no targets.

canadianbroncosfan
03-13-2012, 10:44 PM
Wait a sec I got this

Tim Tebow

Ah so what you're really trying to say is, Tim Tebow

houghtam
03-13-2012, 10:45 PM
No one will convince SoCal of otherwise. Everyone knows Shanahan had the power to sign whoever he wanted. Everyone knows if there was even an inkling of Bowlen shutting down a free agent or extension due to funding at the very least Schefter would have leaked, and in all likelihood the entire local media would have found out.

The truth is there were years we were cap strapped because Shanahan had one of the worst track records of free agent scouting in the NFL and after he'd blow his load on garbage, two years later when we were cutting it we had no room to do anything. No one can name a single free agent we wanted that we didn't sign due to Bowlen. Not a one.

But SoCal is mad at Bowlen for firing Shanahan and trading Cutler so he's revising history for himself to justify hating Bowlen and if you argue anything to the contrary, he'll just put his fingers in ears and scream "Nuh uh! Nuh Uh! USA TODAY says he didn't so he didn't! Bowlen sucks and is dumb stupid an I hate em!"

:)

KHAAAAAAAAN!

canadianbroncosfan
03-13-2012, 10:46 PM
Oh, I don't know... giving our QB a shot in hell of finding an open receiver?

You can't develop a QB with no targets.

Okay but if he's wide open and the ball goes 4 yards over his head, I have to again ask what would we use Vincent Jackson for? The guy wouldn't get the chance for over 1000 yards which would lead a guy like him to become disgruntled and a cancer.

houghtam
03-13-2012, 10:48 PM
Okay but if he's wide open and the ball goes 4 yards over his head, I have to again ask what would we use Vincent Jackson for? The guy wouldn't get the chance for over 1000 yards which would lead a guy like him to become disgruntled and a cancer.

Yeah, it was just luck those one passes he completed that one time.

BroncoBeavis
03-13-2012, 10:49 PM
Okay but if he's wide open and the ball goes 4 yards over his head, I have to again ask what would we use Vincent Jackson for? The guy wouldn't get the chance for over 1000 yards which would lead a guy like him to become disgruntled and a cancer.

Nice... Broncos fans who don't want to give their quarterback the weapons to have a chance at improvement.

And they're the ones talking about what superfans they are.

canadianbroncosfan
03-13-2012, 10:54 PM
Nice... Broncos fans who don't want to give their quarterback the weapons to have a chance at improvement.

And they're the ones talking about what superfans they are.

Not at all. But if Jackson's use is going to be limited, which like it or not it would be with Tebow at the helm, I would rather spend the $10M/season elsewhere.

BroncoBeavis
03-13-2012, 10:57 PM
Not at all. But if Jackson's use is going to be limited, which like it or not it would be with Tebow at the helm, I would rather spend the $10M/season elsewhere.

Hey man, why do you have to bum a ride to work?

Oh, because I don't own a car.

Why don't you have a car?

Well I don't ever drive, so what's the point.

canadianbroncosfan
03-13-2012, 10:59 PM
Hey man, why do you have to bum a ride to work?

Oh, because I don't own a car.

Why don't you have a car?

Well I don't ever drive, so what's the point.

If we had brought in VJ, we would expect VJ San Diego numbers, he just wouldn't get those here with Tebow whether you like the guy or not, it just would not happen.

BroncoBeavis
03-13-2012, 11:03 PM
If we had brought in VJ, we would expect VJ San Diego numbers, he just wouldn't get those here with Tebow whether you like the guy or not, it just would not happen.

Yeah, we'll just stick with the 2-WR, 300lb TE sets. Then blame Tebow. That seemed to work well last year.

BroncoBeavis
03-13-2012, 11:04 PM
Schef just reported Meachem to Chargers, BTW.

canadianbroncosfan
03-13-2012, 11:06 PM
Schef just reported Meachem to Chargers, BTW.

What? NO! ****! Ugh! I hate the Broncos, this is all the FOs fault!!!

-Mouth

SoCalBronco
03-13-2012, 11:09 PM
No one will convince SoCal of otherwise. Everyone knows Shanahan had the power to sign whoever he wanted. Everyone knows if there was even an inkling of Bowlen shutting down a free agent or extension due to funding at the very least Schefter would have leaked, and in all likelihood the entire local media would have found out. Shanahan controlled the media pretty well and he would not have tolerated any kind of interference from Bowlen. I remember that quote Shanahan's last year when Bowlen said Shanahan asked him to remodel the facilities at Dove Valley despite them being seven years old. Bowlen and Shanahan both said that was the first time Bowlen said no to him. Don't tell SoCal that, it will ruin his fantasy.

The truth about the cap is there were years we were cap strapped because Shanahan had one of the worst track records of free agent scouting in the NFL and after he'd blow his load on garbage, two years later when we were cutting it we had no room to do anything. No one can name a single free agent we wanted that we didn't sign due to Bowlen. Not a one.

But SoCal is mad at Bowlen for firing Shanahan and trading Cutler so he's revising history for himself to justify hating Bowlen and if you argue anything to the contrary, he'll just put his fingers in ears and scream "Nuh uh! Nuh Uh! USA TODAY says he didn't so he didn't! Bowlen sucks and is dumb stupid an I hate em!"

:)

Sigh...we've gone in circles on this several times. Look dude, I posted the USA Today data and I didn't say "Nuh uh! Nuh Uh!", it was a rational analysis of it and I made SURE to post like 10 YEARS WORTH of it, so nobody could say "SoCal is only cherrypicking the worst years so he can justify throwing Bowlen off the side of a mountain". 10 years of data, dude. It showed there were only a couple years of big time spending. I think we can take it as an acceptable maxim that it should never take 7 or 8 years of **** spending just to make up the dead money from 2-3 bad years. That just isnt realistic and if it is, then it should have been accompanied by the type of cap tidal wave that ruined SF and TEN for long stretches, but we never saw that. Ever. Yes, we accumulated some dead money, maybe more than most teams, but it never ever got to the levels where it made us have not spend...at all...for like 8 of 11 years. Come on, dude.

I've posted alot of statistical data on this. The USA Today Stuff and also the stuff about wins per dollars spent as well. There is alot of empirical evidence that you are just putting your head in the sand in and saying "BYU came back against Iona in dramatic fashion, so I'm in a good mood and I don't want to hear that our owner is POS". Which is fine, congrats on the win BTW, you are in the tourney. Miami alsmost made the tourney and I wish we played you guys in Round 1 so after the game you could say "**** DJ Williams..**** Miami, we got robbed". :) Back to our point, I've got stats dude, you have this single theory called "If we can't get inside Dove Valley and access their year by year FA target lists, then you can't prove Shanny didn't get someone he wanted" Really dude. This is a total strawman, you are intentionally rigging it so that unless someone has access to that particular data, which you know damn well that no one does, then my argument can't work". Yeah, that's a fair way of looking it /sarcasm. We don't need the lists, dude. We can infer from facts and basic reasoning. We average somewhere right around 20th OVER TEN YEARS, INCLUDING the years we massively spent..it includes that. Are you really suggesting that each year it was Shanny's goal and No. 1 priority to go into FA saying "I want Marquand Manuel and Calvin Lowry. That's what I want. That's our No. 1 guy"! Really dude?

I'm pretty sure he never wanted to start guys like Webster and Amon Gordon. Factual basis? Because he's not a moron. Its not like those guys were big FA spending misses, we knew they were scrubs coming in. Who would affirmatively want to start those guys? If you average around 20th or so for a super long stretch in time, its clear that there is a budget in place, which isnt a bad thing on its face, but the thing is that its just any budget, but its an unduly restrictive budget. Look at the year by year data, dude. I've laid it out. Do we really need the Lions year by year FA target list to figure out that William Clay Ford is a ****ing miser?

KevinJames
03-13-2012, 11:10 PM
OK, you want to run 4 wide. You've got Peyton Manning after all.

Name them. Try not to laugh.

Demaryius Thomas (#1 WR)
FA WR (still some solid #2s out there no need to break the bank on these big names)
Eric Decker (I see him in the slot)
TE lined up at in line or at WR Clark or Julius Thomas

and I didn't laugh once when I named them. Still got FA a lot of options left and Draft.

canadianbroncosfan
03-13-2012, 11:15 PM
Demaryius Thomas (#1 WR)
FA WR (still some solid #2s out there no need to break the bank on these big names)
Eric Decker (I see him in the slot)
TE lined up at in line or at WR Clark or Julius Thomas

and I didn't laugh once when I named them. Still got FA a lot of options left and Draft.

What? Are you crazy? None of those are Jackson or Meacham or Wayne of which we should have signed all three.

-Beavis

BroncoBeavis
03-13-2012, 11:15 PM
Demaryius Thomas (#1 WR)
FA WR (still some solid #2s out there no need to break the bank on these big names)
Eric Decker (I see him in the slot)
TE lined up at in line or at WR Clark or Julius Thomas

and I didn't laugh once when I named them. Still got FA a lot of options left and Draft.

Well it's kind of cheating when you're asked to 'name them' to use the name "FA WR"

BroncoBeavis
03-13-2012, 11:19 PM
What? Are you crazy? None of those are Jackson or Meacham or Wayne of which we should have signed all three.

-Beavis

Meachem would've been a great #2. Or someone to fill for DT if he gets hurt (which isn't unheard of)

But here we sit. Waiting for Peyton to call. But he NEVER DOES! He's only using us for our big cap figure. :)

canadianbroncosfan
03-13-2012, 11:22 PM
Meachem would've been a great #2. Or someone to fill for DT if he gets hurt (which isn't unheard of)

But here we sit. Waiting for Peyton to call. But he NEVER DOES! He's only using us for our big cap figure. :)

Okay we aren't going to sign every free agent.

barryr
03-13-2012, 11:23 PM
Sigh...we've gone in circles on this several times. Look dude, I posted the USA Today data and I didn't say "Nuh uh! Nuh Uh!", it was a rational analysis of it and I made SURE to post like 10 YEARS WORTH of it, so nobody could say "SoCal is only cherrypicking the worst years so he can justify throwing Bowlen off the side of a mountain". 10 years of data, dude. It showed there were only a couple years of big time spending. I think we can take it as an acceptable maxim that it should never take 7 or 8 years of **** spending just to make up the dead money from 2-3 bad years. That just isnt realistic and if it is, then it should have been accompanied by the type of cap tidal wave that ruined SF and TEN for long stretches, but we never saw that. Ever. Yes, we accumulated some dead money, maybe more than most teams, but it never ever got to the levels where it made us have not spend...at all...for like 8 of 11 years. Come on, dude.

I've posted alot of statistical data on this. The USA Today Stuff and also the stuff about wins per dollars spent as well. There is alot of empirical evidence that you are just putting your head in the sand in and saying "BYU came back against Iona in dramatic fashion, so I'm in a good mood and I don't want to hear that our owner is POS". Which is fine, congrats on the win BTW, you are in the tourney. Miami alsmost made the tourney and I wish we played you guys in Round 1 so after the game you could say "**** DJ Williams..**** Miami, we got robbed". :) Back to our point, I've got stats dude, you have this single theory called "If we can't get inside Dove Valley and access their year by year FA target lists, then you can't prove Shanny didn't get someone he wanted" Really dude. This is a total strawman, you are intentionally rigging it so that unless someone has access to that particular data, which you know damn well that no one does, then my argument can't work". Yeah, that's a fair way of looking it /sarcasm. We don't need the lists, dude. We can infer from facts and basic reasoning. We average somewhere right around 20th OVER TEN YEARS, INCLUDING the years we massively spent..it includes that. Are you really suggesting that each year it was Shanny's goal and No. 1 priority to go into FA saying "I want Marquand Manuel and Calvin Lowry. That's what I want. That's our No. 1 guy"! Really dude?

I'm pretty sure he never wanted to start guys like Webster and Amon Gordon. Who would? If you average around 20th or so for a super long stretch in time, its clear that there is a budget in place, which isnt a bad thing on its face, but the thing is that its just any budget, but its an unduly restrictive budget. Look at the year by year data, dude. I've laid it out. Do we really need the Lions year by year FA target list to figure out that William Clay Ford is a ****ing miser?

If even that were true, then Shanahan would have needed the draft to get his defensive players and he did a crappy job with that. The list of draft busts on defense is about as long as the crap he signed in free agency. Even in Shanahan's last season as Bronco coach, the defense had only 3 starters whom they had ever drafted, Williams, Thomas, and Dumervil. Two 4th rounders and a 1st rounder who has never been that a great player. The rest were free agents or trade.

KevinJames
03-13-2012, 11:24 PM
Well it's kind of cheating when you're asked to 'name them' to use the name "FA WR"

Well to be fair it is the first day of FA and lets be honest a lot of free agents are waiting for Peyton Manning to sign before they go to a team especially if they think Den, Ari, Mia, Ten is involved they will wait so they can get a top money offer.

SoCalBronco
03-13-2012, 11:28 PM
If even that were true, then Shanahan would have needed the draft to get his defensive players and he did a crappy job with that. The list of draft busts on defense is about as long as the crap he signed in free agency. Even in Shanahan's last season as Bronco coach, the defense had only 3 starters whom they had ever drafted, Williams, Thomas, and Dumervil. Two 4th rounders and a 1st rounder who has never been that a great player. The rest were free agents or trade.

I'm not saying he didn't miss in the draft on defense, yeah his hit rate defensively was not as good as offense (which was actually really good the last few years..damn good, Cutler, Marshall, Scheffler, Clady (before he got ruined by injury and McD), Royal (before he got ruined by McD), Kuper, Hillis etc.) Shanny had his hits on D and he also traded a great hit on offense (Portis) for a great defensive player that we still have (Champ) and you are forgetting about D-Will and Fox, its not exactly our fault that they arent here anymore. The point isnt about draft hits/misses, yes he had his misses, esp on D, but its that the statistical data and the fact that we never had a cap tidal wave SF/TEN style strongly suggest Bowlen had some fairly restrictive caps on spending throughout the 2000s, which cannot be explained simply by dead money for reasons already mentioned. Seriously, 20th on average over like 10 years, including with all the big contracts. 20th?

barryr
03-13-2012, 11:34 PM
I'm not saying he didn't miss in the draft on defense, yeah his hit rate defensively was not as good as offense (which was actually really good the last few years..damn good, Cutler, Marshall, Scheffler, Clady (before he got ruined by injury and McD), Royal (before he got ruined by McD), Kuper, Hillis etc.) Shanny had his hits on D and he also traded a great hit on offense (Portis) for a great defensive player that we still have (Champ) and you are forgetting about D-Will and Fox, its not exactly our fault that they arent here anymore. The point isnt about draft hits/misses, yes he had his misses, esp on D, but its that the statistical data and the fact that we never had a cap tidal wave SF/TEN style strongly suggest Bowlen had some fairly restrictive caps on spending throughout the 2000s, which cannot be explained simply by dead money for reasons already mentioned. Seriously, 20th on average over like 10 years, including with all the big contracts. 20th?

Williams and Foxworth were not that good at CB. Average players. I centered on the defense since that is where the Broncos stunk for so long and so many draft picks were wasted on defensive players who didn't do much, if even did a thing. Those are facts, speculating whether Shanahan wanted all of these great players in free agency but mean old Bowlen said no even when having cap space is just that, speculation. When you keep drafting crap, then you usually do not spend big money to keep those players but if your offense has much of the big money, then you better draft well on defense, which Shanahan never figured out.

Kaylore
03-13-2012, 11:36 PM
So basically: I love Shanahan, and he had some terrible players he signed. There's no way I'm going to allow myself to believe he actually did that on purpose, so I'm going to blame Bowlen and use "I know Shanahan is smart and a smart person would not have done that, ergo Bowlen made him or stopped him from getting something better."


That's not an argument, SoCal. Your whole argument is based on Shanny worship and trying to blame Shanny's failings on Bowlen. They aren't.

Shanny was good at drafting offensive players, particularly when he let other GM's run it for him, and trades. He raped everyone in a trade. He just raped us on the Gaffney for garbage trade. He was terrible at free agent signings and that is why we were cash strapped.

And you still have yet to list one example of a good player we wanted to sign, or rather Shanahan wanted to sign, but Bowlen stopped due to money issues. Hint: There are none.

And you still have yet to refute my point that if Bowlen was holding Shanahan back in anyway someone would have caught wind of it.

And here's the final fail in your argument. The person in charge of signing players for all those years wasn't Bowlen, it was Shanahan, so if we were cheap, it was all Shanahan's fault, not Pat Bowlen's.

:kiss:

**** DJ Williams.

BroncoBeavis
03-13-2012, 11:36 PM
Well to be fair it is the first day of FA and lets be honest a lot of free agents are waiting for Peyton Manning to sign before they go to a team especially if they think Den, Ari, Mia, Ten is involved they will wait so they can get a top money offer.

Yeah, I just don't see that. If anyone would've played that angle it was Wayne or Pierre. Both signed right away.

KevinJames
03-13-2012, 11:38 PM
Yeah, I just don't see that. If anyone would've played that angle it was Wayne or Pierre. Both signed right away.

Is that why only 6 players switched teams today?

Wayne must have believed Peyton isn't going to Miami anyway so he just re-upped with the Colts, Luck's going to have to throw to someone. He should be the #1 WR there and have a good season. He wouldn't be a #1 in Den, Ari, or Ten.

BroncoBeavis
03-13-2012, 11:42 PM
Is that why only 6 players switched teams today?

I don't think that could possibly be right.

barryr
03-13-2012, 11:43 PM
Is that why only 6 players switched teams today?

Wayne must have believed Peyton isn't going to Miami anyway so he just re-upped with the Colts, Luck's going to have to throw to someone. He should be the #1 WR there and have a good season. He wouldn't be a #1 in Den, Ari, or Ten.

It is hard to guage Wayne since he also happened to take less money at 33 years of age than he probably could have gotten elsewhere to stick with a rebuilding type of team. You don't see that every day.

BroncoBeavis
03-13-2012, 11:46 PM
It is hard to guage Wayne since he also happened to take less money at 33 years of age than he probably could have gotten elsewhere to stick with a rebuilding type of team. You don't see that every day.

Thinking Wayne maybe likes being a number 1 guy vs the risk of playing second fiddle to someone like Britt, Fitzgerald or even DT if he followed Peyton around.

SoCalBronco
03-13-2012, 11:47 PM
So basically: I love Shanahan, and he had some terrible players he signed. There's no way I'm going to allow myself to believe he actually did that on purpose, so I'm going to blame Bowlen and use "I know Shanahan is smart and a smart person would not have done that, ergo Bowlen made him or stopped him from getting something better."

That's not an argument, SoCal. Your whole argument is based on Shanny worship and trying to blame Shanny's failings on Bowlen. They aren't.

No. But nice try. My point is based on empirical data. Tons of it, which has been posted before. In addition to that youve got the data Drek posted about operating income etc.. There's a ton of empirical stats here that you are just waivign away and refusing to even address. Yes, I do have a huge man crush on Shanny, but the argument stands on its own two feet. Do you honestly believe he really wanted to sign Marquand Manuel as his first choice at Safety? Jimmer isn't a fan of your line of argumentation.



Shanny was good at drafting offensive players, particularly when he let other GM's run it for him, and trades. He raped everyone in a trade. He just raped us on the Gaffney for garbage trade. He was terrible at free agent signings and that is why we were cash strapped.

Again, there isn't a dispute that we had SOME degree of dead money due to poor choices in FA. Yes, there was some dead money, but again it cant explain the 10 year average. It could explain maybe 1 or 2 or even 3 of those 8 years of doing jack ****, not all 8. BTW, the Gaffney trade was one of the few hoseings McD put us through that I wasn't pissed off at....I wonder why? ROFL!

And you still have yet to list one example of a good player we wanted to sign, or rather Shanahan wanted to sign, but Bowlen stopped due to money issues. Hint: There are none.

I already debunked your "we need all the FA lists" theory as unreasonable in light of common sense.

And you still have yet to refute my point that if Bowlen was holding Shanahan back in anyway someone would have caught wind of it.

This is an argument I didnt address in my prior post, you are right. I shall address it now. Yes, I know Schefter was kind of close to Shanny but Schefter is also a pretty smart guy. Why would he write something that would insinuate something bad about the owner. If there is something youc an do at Dove Valley as a media person that is even worse than pissing off Shanny, and there aren't many thigns that fit into that category, it would be pissing off the actual owner. I'm not sure what you're looking for here, Khan. Yes, I grant you that there was no "Broncos Mailbag by Adam Schefter" from 2004 that said:

"The pear scones at (fill in snob restaurant) are to die for and the rose water is amazingly refreshing. 10/10. Thanks for your question Jim. In fact, the Broncos wanted to add some depth at linebacker, but recieved orders from on high that ordering new cases of Blue Label was a higher priority".

Yeah, Khan, you got me, he never came out and said that. I wonder why?

And here's the final fail in your argument. The person in charge of signing players for all those years wasn't Bowlen, it was Shanahan, so if we were cheap, it was all Shanahan's fault, not Pat Bowlen's.

But Bowlen (or Ellis) set the overall budget. If its so restrictive that it averages out to 20th in the league, than yeah, you can't afford to make ANY mistakes and survive, because there is no room for error. Shanny made mistakes...several of them in fact, but he still finished the last three years at .500 (which was the worst general period in the 2000s), which was above the spending levels. How terrible.

:kiss:

**** DJ Williams.

I would suggest BYU and Miami need to schedule a home and home basketball series, but I don't want to add to you guys out of conference losses, it could hurt you come tourney time. :) My responses above.

Requiem
03-13-2012, 11:47 PM
So basically: I love Shanahan, and he had some terrible players he signed. There's no way I'm going to allow myself to believe he actually did that on purpose, so I'm going to blame Bowlen and use "I know Shanahan is smart and a smart person would not have done that, ergo Bowlen made him or stopped him from getting something better."


That's not an argument, SoCal. Your whole argument is based on Shanny worship and trying to blame Shanny's failings on Bowlen. They aren't.

Shanny was good at drafting offensive players, particularly when he let other GM's run it for him, and trades. He raped everyone in a trade. He just raped us on the Gaffney for garbage trade. He was terrible at free agent signings and that is why we were cash strapped.

And you still have yet to list one example of a good player we wanted to sign, or rather Shanahan wanted to sign, but Bowlen stopped due to money issues. Hint: There are none.

And you still have yet to refute my point that if Bowlen was holding Shanahan back in anyway someone would have caught wind of it.

And here's the final fail in your argument. The person in charge of signing players for all those years wasn't Bowlen, it was Shanahan, so if we were cheap, it was all Shanahan's fault, not Pat Bowlen's.

:kiss:

**** DJ Williams.

hey khan you best shut the **** up before bubba fartss

Requiem
03-13-2012, 11:48 PM
Schef just reported Meachem to Chargers, BTW.

I wonder what the Broncos DB board looks like this year Beavisboy.

Kaylore
03-14-2012, 08:19 AM
I loved the jab at Scheff for the food review, SoCal.


The only thing you have is that the average spending over that time was low.

However you have decided to totally hate the owner (which really I don't have a problem with per se) even though you have no evidence, zero, aside from your own guesswork that that is Bowlen's fault.

1. Multiple sources regularly acknowledge that Shanahan was THE personnel guy and controlled all the football operations.
2. Both Bowlen and Shanny, and every news source can cite one time when Bowlen did tell Shanahan "no" on something and it was related to facilities, not to player personnel.
3. There is zero reports ever of Bowlen stopping a transaction.
4. Name one free agent we didn't sign that we actually tried to sign because of money. Even if you find a few, you'll see they were all Shanny's call. Sometimes the right one (Reggie Hayward) and sometimes the wrong one (Bert Berry.)

If you look at the specifics year by year, look at who was available and whatnot, there isn't anyone we missed out on. One of the reasons is most of the big FA signings are re-signings of good draft picks. And frankly, Shanny didn't have many - especially in the early to mid 2000's.

You have a vague argument we didn't spend more on free agency, which is debatable. And then you are blaming Bowlen for it, which is totally baseless.

You wanna hate Bowlen for firing Shanny, trading Cutler, cutting DJ, etc. Go right ahead. But your imagined view of this man as someone who has refused to give Shanahan any money over the years anti-historic and the exact opposite of anything that was being reported by anyone. It wasn't how it was, SoCal. I live here in town. Word gets out and something like that, especially if Shanahan felt it was hurting his chances to get what he wanted would have been all over the place - sooner than later.

DENVERDUI55
03-14-2012, 08:25 AM
He's chasing Manning, who will probably command more than $20 million a season. I can't see how you could still think he's cheap after following the Manning saga unfold.

Well you could also say Manning would make him more than that 20 mil.

go_broncos
03-14-2012, 08:27 AM
He's chasing Manning, who will probably command more than $20 million a season. I can't see how you could still think he's cheap after following the Manning saga unfold.

ROFL!

Bowlen likes you..

Tombstone RJ
03-14-2012, 09:00 AM
He's chasing Manning, who will probably command more than $20 million a season. I can't see how you could still think he's cheap after following the Manning saga unfold.

he's still a drunk, so there!

TheElusiveKyleOrton
03-14-2012, 09:44 AM
Dude, pull your head out of you ass. You've baught into that crap...let's sign everybody's rejects to 4yr $10m deals. Oh, boy we are smart!!!Hilarious!

You sure bitch and moan a lot.

spdirty
03-14-2012, 10:08 AM
We're gonna continue to be cheap until we get this quarterback situation figured out. Because I don't care what you say, if you got the stud running back, the stud offensive line, the stud defense, the stud wideouts, you are only gonna get so far. You have to have that quarterback that will take you over the top. Till we get that, or Tebow proves he's the guy, not likely that we'll be spending a whole lot in FA. Just keep trying to build through the draft.

colonelbeef
03-14-2012, 11:45 AM
Umm..how bout because its sort of a one time deal and that even if they signed him for 20m, they would still be MORE than 20m below the cap and over the course of like 12 years, he's only spent a lot of money relative to the rest of the league like 2 times and he's averaged somewhere around 20th in the league over that span.

So yeah...he's a cheapskate...even with Manning. I'm not sure how one signing magically changes like 12 years of history.


agreed.

Peyton Manning will more than make up for the expenditure in signing him.