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bendog
03-21-2012, 03:06 PM
I think McClain was just here to establish his value to resign, and that explains Mays. Bunkley got 25 million over 5 years with 5 guaranteed. That's a lot of jack for a fatty. Bunkley takes Shaun Rodgers job with the Saints as run stopper.

DBroncos4life
03-21-2012, 03:07 PM
Bunkley is a huge loss IMO, there's basically nothing but mediocre left at DT in FA.

Well we got him in a trade pretty late in the game last year. I'm not that worried.

BroncoBeavis
03-21-2012, 03:08 PM
Well we got him in a trade pretty late in the game last year. I'm not that worried.

Translation: we got lucky, so let's go with that plan again.

DBroncos4life
03-21-2012, 03:11 PM
Translation: we got lucky, so let's go with that plan again.

Translation: He was trash for another team then played above is average level of play in a contract year and got a fat pay check by another team because of it.

bendog
03-21-2012, 03:16 PM
Translation: He was trash for another team then played above is average level of play in a contract year and got a fat pay check by another team because of it.

yep. I'd be fine iwht Rodgers or Henderson in a two year contract wth a minimum bonus.

yerner
03-21-2012, 03:17 PM
I think McClain was just here to establish his value to resign, and that explains Mays. Bunkley got 25 million over 5 years with 5 guaranteed. That's a lot of jack for a fatty. Bunkley takes Shaun Rodgers job with the Saints as run stopper.

I think its 9 guaranteed.

DBroncos4life
03-21-2012, 03:19 PM
yep. I'd be fine iwht Rodgers or Henderson in a two year contract wth a minimum bonus.

I agree. I don't know why people are so pissed over this. If you find the threads of us trading for him I bet they didn't like the deal back then as well.

bendog
03-21-2012, 03:24 PM
I agree. I don't know why people are so pissed over this. If you find the threads of us trading for him I bet they didn't like the deal back then as well.

EFX did the same thing last year. These guys are all UFAs. Their teams didn't want them enough to lock them up. They run around to see who will give them the best deal, then they resign with their team unless some team makes an insane offer (and trusting Bunkley to show up in shape and motivated for five years while eating up goodman like cap is insane) or unless they really are done.

Bunkley had a good year. But he's not collapsing pockets. EFX will sift through the wreckage and find some fatties.

Drunken.Broncoholic
03-21-2012, 03:25 PM
That's a lot of money for someone who played 43% of the snaps for the season.

DBroncos4life
03-21-2012, 03:31 PM
EFX did the same thing last year. These guys are all UFAs. Their teams didn't want them enough to lock them up. They run around to see who will give them the best deal, then they resign with their team unless some team makes an insane offer (and trusting Bunkley to show up in shape and motivated for five years while eating up goodman like cap is insane) or unless they really are done.

Bunkley had a good year. But he's not collapsing pockets. EFX will sift through the wreckage and find some fatties.

I wouldn't hate sending a 4th rounder for Sammie Lee Hill. Amobi Okoye, Luis Castillo, and Shaun Rogers wouldn't be all that bad IMO.

yerner
03-21-2012, 03:31 PM
Trevor Laws?

eddie mac
03-21-2012, 03:46 PM
Vic Lombardi - Broncos won't sign Porter


Apparently the Broncos are waiting until after player suspensions are doled out.

I think that was inevitable.

lonestar
03-21-2012, 03:53 PM
OR, you give Peyton Manning the #1 deep threat in the league instead of a rotational DT

If Bey Bey or Decker goes down our depth at WR is screwed. That's not an issue if tebow was still the QB but manning needs weapons in the worst kind of way. Not too mention the added experience Wallace would bring to the WR corps

If If if
Crap happens we could have 4 WRs go down and manning would be worthless as a teat on a boar.

There is no reason to believe that any of them are going to go down.
DT had an Achilles rupture not likely to happen again.
Broncos have a new conditioning guy and a new protocol for keeping guys from getting hurt.

What if Wallace goes down day one? We are screwed and stuck with a huge cap hit and we lose a #one pick.

I'd rather take my chances on someone less costly. There are loads of WRs that are UFA. And they will not be double stuff money wise.

lolcopter
03-21-2012, 03:54 PM
Translation: we got lucky, so let's go with that plan again.

says the tebow supporter

eddie mac
03-21-2012, 04:03 PM
Trevor Laws?

Derek Landri outplayed him last year in Philly and he's still available.

SportinOne
03-21-2012, 04:23 PM
Look, St. Louis got Brandon Lloyd for a 5th round pick last season. There's no reason we need to trade a 1st and spend 10 million on Mike Wallace. He's a great player, but when you got Peyton Manning you don't need a Mike Wallace when you already have DT and Eric Decker. These guys are going to look amazing when under the leadership and accurate passing of old Melon Head.

And Willis. There's your man for the slot.

We do, however, need a punt returner now that Royal is gone. If Squid bounces back completely, i say we keep him for that reason alone.

lolcopter
03-21-2012, 04:25 PM
i like the mike thomas idea from jax that someone floated around in this thread earlier

nvm it's in the jags thread

DBroncos4life
03-21-2012, 04:59 PM
Didn't they say we would sign guys today! I can't take being lied too!!!

g6matty
03-21-2012, 05:02 PM
Andre Caldwell ‏ @caldwell87 Reply Retweet Favorite ∑ Open
Denver here I come! It's bittersweet! I'll miss all the whodey fans but I'm excited to be a Bronco!


decent signing he can play our number 3 receiver role nicely

Lestat
03-21-2012, 05:07 PM
i like Bunkley and wanted him back, but no way in hell would i have paid him that much money. we need a DT in round 1 for sure now.

Lestat
03-21-2012, 05:10 PM
i like this move, still want a WR in the top 3 rounds but i like this move.
Andre Caldwell ‏ @caldwell87 Reply Retweet Favorite ∑ Open
Denver here I come! It's bittersweet! I'll miss all the whodey fans but I'm excited to be a Bronco!


decent signing he can play our number 3 receiver role nicely

Drek
03-21-2012, 05:12 PM
Saints will regret that deal with Bunkley. Dood ain't worth that.

baja
03-21-2012, 05:19 PM
Can Bob play, he's fat?

RaiderH8r
03-21-2012, 05:22 PM
I am struggling to remember the last time something good came out of the Bengals...or Cincy for that matter.

Lestat
03-21-2012, 05:26 PM
Corey Dillion to the Pats, Jonathan Joseph to the Texans,
I am struggling to remember the last time something good came out of the Bengals...or Cincy for that matter.

RaiderH8r
03-21-2012, 05:27 PM
Corey Dillion to the Pats, Jonathan Joseph to the Texans,

Ummm.....no.

Lestat
03-21-2012, 05:28 PM
well those are the last few times a good thing has come out of Cincy Ha!
Ummm.....no.

DB-Freak
03-21-2012, 05:29 PM
Damn the Bunkley one definitely hurt us.

He was like the lone run stopper on this team.

RaiderH8r
03-21-2012, 05:31 PM
Damn the Bunkley one definitely hurt us.

He was like the lone run stopper on this team.

Don't worry. We signed Joe Mays to a sickening contract so he can whiff tackles.

We should grab London Fletcher for a rent a backer for the next 2 yrs but NOOOO, had to sign the idiot cannonball.

Lestat
03-21-2012, 05:32 PM
it hurt, but one Joe Mays type deal is bad enough, we didn't need two of them.

DBroncos4life
03-21-2012, 05:33 PM
I am struggling to remember the last time something good came out of the Bengals...or Cincy for that matter.

Jerome Simpson weed suply?

barryr
03-21-2012, 05:34 PM
Losing Bunkley hurts, so DT become a big need again. I heard Rivers talk about why the Chargers were so successful against Manning and the Colts ove the year and he stated because "we could run the ball on them."

Archer81
03-21-2012, 05:39 PM
Losing Bunkley hurts, so DT become a big need again. I heard Rivers talk about why the Chargers were so successful against Manning and the Colts ove the year and he stated because "we could run the ball on them."


My kingdom for a DT. I swear to God defensive line has been a problem for Denver since I was born 30 years ago. And if Mays is the starter, we need better guys up front.

:Broncos:

RaiderH8r
03-21-2012, 05:42 PM
Jerome Simpson weed suply?

I ain't down with the brown.

RaiderH8r
03-21-2012, 05:43 PM
well those are the last few times a good thing has come out of Cincy Ha!

I will never forgive Cincy for what they did to chili.

barryr
03-21-2012, 05:43 PM
Draft 2 DT's pretty high in the draft and hope at least one develops and does it quickly.

RaiderH8r
03-21-2012, 05:49 PM
Draft 2 DT's pretty high in the draft and hope at least one develops and does it quickly.

As long as Turbin is a Bronco in the third we cool.

Smilin Assassin
03-21-2012, 05:50 PM
Adam Schefter‏@AdamSchefter

Denver has agreed to trade Tim Tebow and a seventh-round pick to the Jets for the NY's fourth-round pick and a sixth-round pick

(8:49pm est)

orangeatheist
03-21-2012, 05:52 PM
Adam Schefter‏@AdamSchefter

Denver has agreed to trade Tim Tebow and a seventh-round pick to the Jets for the NY's fourth-round pick and a sixth-round pick

(8:49pm est)

Welcome to 9am this mornin......oh wait? This is NEW? ;D

(What about the 5 mil?)

Lestat
03-21-2012, 05:54 PM
only Tebow can get traded, get the trade stalled, get to pick between two teams and get traded to that same team again in one day.

Shoemaker
03-21-2012, 05:57 PM
only Tebow can get traded, get the trade stalled, get to pick between two teams and get traded to that same team again in one day.

He Just Wins Trades, man.

Lestat
03-21-2012, 05:57 PM
Jets agreed to be 2.5
Welcome to 9am this mornin......oh wait? This is NEW? ;D

(What about the 5 mil?)

yerner
03-21-2012, 06:04 PM
I ****ing hate the Jets. Worst of luck Tebow.

Gutless Drunk
03-21-2012, 06:06 PM
Welcome to 9am this mornin......oh wait? This is NEW? ;D

(What about the 5 mil?)

NY has agreed to pay half of the $5 million in compensation back to Denver that was in dispute in Tim Tebow trade.
Adam Schefter
@AdamSchefter

Broncobiv
03-21-2012, 06:08 PM
Seems like pretty ****ty compensation to me. Tebow + 7th for a 4th + 6th. ugh!~

KevinJames
03-21-2012, 06:16 PM
Seems like pretty ****ty compensation to me. Tebow + 7th for a 4th + 6th. ugh!~

Its not that bad, considering the circumstances.

4th round selections often have gems

Broncobiv
03-21-2012, 06:23 PM
Yeah, I guess it was pretty clear that there was no way in hell we we're going to play him again as the starter. We had basically no leverage.

Sucks...

Lestat
03-21-2012, 06:44 PM
i was hoping we'd be able to move him for a 2nd but he had to go to avoid the Tebowmania reaching into the upcoming season and becoming a distraction.

maher_tyler
03-21-2012, 07:04 PM
How many picks do we have now? 6-7??

barryr
03-21-2012, 07:26 PM
As long as Turbin is a Bronco in the third we cool.

From what has been written about him and the videos of him, he looks like a solid RB prospect who coul do very well in the NFL with the right team.

TonyR
03-21-2012, 07:30 PM
We should grab London Fletcher for a rent a backer for the next 2 yrs but NOOOO, had to sign the idiot cannonball.

Good call, Fletcher's name really hasn't come up. Old but very productive and a hell of a lot better than Mays.

MVP-06
03-21-2012, 07:32 PM
Don't worry. We signed Joe Mays to a sickening contract so he can whiff tackles.

We should grab London Fletcher for a rent a backer for the next 2 yrs but NOOOO, had to sign the idiot cannonball.

He pissed me off the second he wiffed and dislocated DJ's elbow. Thought we should have cut him then

pricejj
03-21-2012, 08:15 PM
27m Mike Klis ‏ @MikeKlis
Then again, Broncos have Peyton Manning. Who needs defensive tackles?

27m Mike Klis ‏ @MikeKlis
Broncos not done with Thomas. And McBean suspension could be stayed by court. Still, worst-case scenario is scary.

28m Mike Klis ‏ @MikeKlis
Bunkley, Thomas, McBean? Oh my. If the Broncos don't take a DT with No. 25 pick there has to be an investigation.

30m Mike Klis ‏ @MikeKlis
Broncos lost DT Brodrick Bunkley to Saints (5 years, $25 million). Thomas close to going elsewhere. DT Ryan McBean facing 6-gm suspension.

31m Mike Klis ‏ @MikeKlis
Chekc that. DT Marcus Thomas is close to signing with another team. That means Broncos have HUGE holes at defensive tackle

34m Mike Klis ‏ @MikeKlis
Broncos close to re-signing DT Marcus Thomas. A must after losing DT Brodrick Bunkley to Saints (5 yrs, $25 mill; $9 million guarantee)



What the **** is Xanders problem? ****ing sign Marcus Thomas you ****ing idiot.

barryr
03-21-2012, 09:11 PM
Sign Pat Sims and trade down and try to get either Reyes or Thompson at DT in the 2nd round. Plus re-sign Hunter and sign Roth to be backups at DE and call it good.

Carmelo15
03-21-2012, 09:45 PM
Isn't Aubrayo Franklin a free agent?

Lestat
03-21-2012, 09:53 PM
yep and he played like he didn't want a new contract last season. heck Bunkley is replacing him.

not opposed to signing him at all. but the fact that he didn't get it done in a show me year makes me wary about his motivation.
Isn't Aubrayo Franklin a free agent?

Lestat
03-21-2012, 09:54 PM
since Schef reported that only the Saints captains would be punished for the bounty program i wonder if the Broncos will now move forward and sign Porter.

serious hops
03-21-2012, 10:11 PM
What the **** is Xanders problem?

The 350K budget the front office allocated for the position has proven to be more of a hindrance to getting deals done than they'd anticipated. They're working on it.

Tom Nalen 66
03-22-2012, 02:37 AM
since Schef reported that only the Saints captains would be punished for the bounty program i wonder if the Broncos will now move forward and sign Porter.

Please give me Porter..please

Agamemnon
03-22-2012, 04:38 AM
What's happening at the DT position this offseason is beyond comprehension. We are going to have no one there. Guess we are banking on Manning putting up 30+ points every game, because between our DT's and Mays our defensive interior is as soft as butter on a hot summer day. This is getting ugly, and no rook is going to fix it (not that we are going to draft a DT anyway).

Beantown Bronco
03-22-2012, 06:21 AM
What's happening at the DT position this offseason is beyond comprehension. We are going to have no one there.

Another person who evidently can't remember that our DT position was actually WORSE last year at this time. Vickerson was the only one on the roster in March of 2011. Warren, Bunkley and Thomas didn't sign until August.

TonyR
03-22-2012, 06:31 AM
Here's are our FA DT options...

Sammie Lee Hill (RFA), NT, Lions. Age: 25
Albert Haynesworth, DT, Buccaneers. Age: 31
Derek Landri, DT, Eagles. Age: 28
Antonio Garay, NT, Chargers. Age: 32
Antonio Dixon (RFA), DT, Eagles. Age: 27
Luis Castillo, DE/DT, Chargers. Age: 29
Amobi Okoye, DT, Bears. Age: 25
Desmond Bryant (RFA), DE/DT, Raiders. Age: 26
John Henderson, DT, Raiders. Age: 33
Justin Bannan, DE/DT, Rams. Age: 33
Kelly Gregg, NT, Chiefs. Age: 35
Fred Robbins, DT, Rams. Age: 35
Gerard Warren, DT, Patriots. Age: 34
Shaun Rogers, NT, Saints. Age: 33
Casey Hampton, NT, Steelers. Age: 34
Tony Hargrove, DT, Seahawks. Age: 29.
Aubrayo Franklin, NT, Saints. Age: 32.
Tommie Harris, DT, Chargers. Age: 29.
Rocky Bernard, DT, Giants. Age: 33.
Leger Douzable, DT, Jaguars. Age: 26.
Pat Sims, DT, Bengals. Age: 26.
Brandon McKinney, NT, Ravens. Age: 29.
Eric Foster, DT, Colts. Age: 27.
Kedric Golston, DE/DT, Redskins. Age: 29.
Trevor Laws, DT, Eagles. Age: 27.
Remi Ayodele, DT, Vikings. Age: 29.
Gary Gibson, DT, Rams. Age: 30
Aaron Smith, DE/DT, Steelers. Age: 36.
Anthony Adams, DT, Bears. Age: 32.
Howard Green, NT, Packers. Age: 33.
Vonnie Holliday, DE/DT, Cardinals. Age: 36.
Aaron Smith, DE/DT, Steelers. Age: 36
Tony Brown, DT, Titans. Age: 31.
Jimmy Kennedy, DT, Giants. Age: 32.
Nate Collins, DT, Jaguars. Age: 24.
Nick Hayden (RFA), DT, Bengals. Age: 26.
Mike Wright, DE/DT, Patriots. Age: 30.
DeMario Pressley, DT, Panthers. Age: 26

http://walterfootball.com/freeagents2012DT.php

ayjackson
03-22-2012, 06:59 AM
Another person who evidently can't remember that our DT position was actually WORSE last year at this time. Vickerson was the only one on the roster in March of 2011. Warren, Bunkley and Thomas didn't sign until August.

Ummmm....Lockout?

Beantown Bronco
03-22-2012, 07:04 AM
Ummmm....Lockout?

Ummmm, that doesn't change the fact that our DT position was worse at this time last year AND we still didn't draft one.

DBroncos4life
03-22-2012, 07:27 AM
I don't know why everyone is freaking out over a freaking two down DT. Ayers moving inside during pass rushing situations really makes finding a DT easier.

Rulon Velvet Jones
03-22-2012, 07:42 AM
I thought Okoye had a nice little season for the Bears last year. I'd take it.

RaiderH8r
03-22-2012, 07:42 AM
Good call, Fletcher's name really hasn't come up. Old but very productive and a hell of a lot better than Mays.

His age is definitely a concern but the guy consistently averages double digit tackles per game, has a good head, controls the huddle, and knows his position. He's the QB of the D. Put Mays on the bench with a clipboard.

Problem is we overpaid for Mays so we won't likely bring in a guy like Fletcher and his salary and that sucks.

Rohirrim
03-22-2012, 07:43 AM
We're going to score so many points so fast that we don't have to worry about the other team's running game. Let 'em run. :puff:

Shananahan
03-22-2012, 07:50 AM
What's happening at the DT position this offseason is beyond comprehension. We are going to have no one there. Guess we are banking on Manning putting up 30+ points every game, because between our DT's and Mays our defensive interior is as soft as butter on a hot summer day. This is getting ugly, and no rook is going to fix it (not that we are going to draft a DT anyway).
Time to take a break, dude. Go outside or something.

ayjackson
03-22-2012, 08:18 AM
Ummmm, that doesn't change the fact that our DT position was worse at this time last year AND we still didn't draft one.

Sure it does. Free agency was after the draft last year. This year it's before the draft.

Beantown Bronco
03-22-2012, 08:25 AM
Sure it does. Free agency was after the draft last year. This year it's before the draft.

Please read what I'm responding to. The question presented was "were we ever worse off at the DT position than now." I answered "yes, March 2011".

There is no way to make the argument that we were better at the position in March 2011 than March 2012. Lockout or not, we had one guy on our roster that had any NFL experience. That's it.

Tombstone RJ
03-22-2012, 08:56 AM
Here's are our FA DT options...

Sammie Lee Hill (RFA), NT, Lions. Age: 25
Albert Haynesworth, DT, Buccaneers. Age: 31
Derek Landri, DT, Eagles. Age: 28
Antonio Garay, NT, Chargers. Age: 32
Antonio Dixon (RFA), DT, Eagles. Age: 27
Luis Castillo, DE/DT, Chargers. Age: 29
Amobi Okoye, DT, Bears. Age: 25
Desmond Bryant (RFA), DE/DT, Raiders. Age: 26
John Henderson, DT, Raiders. Age: 33
Justin Bannan, DE/DT, Rams. Age: 33
Kelly Gregg, NT, Chiefs. Age: 35
Fred Robbins, DT, Rams. Age: 35
Gerard Warren, DT, Patriots. Age: 34
Shaun Rogers, NT, Saints. Age: 33
Casey Hampton, NT, Steelers. Age: 34
Tony Hargrove, DT, Seahawks. Age: 29.
Aubrayo Franklin, NT, Saints. Age: 32.
Tommie Harris, DT, Chargers. Age: 29.
Rocky Bernard, DT, Giants. Age: 33.
Leger Douzable, DT, Jaguars. Age: 26.
Pat Sims, DT, Bengals. Age: 26.
Brandon McKinney, NT, Ravens. Age: 29.
Eric Foster, DT, Colts. Age: 27.
Kedric Golston, DE/DT, Redskins. Age: 29.
Trevor Laws, DT, Eagles. Age: 27.
Remi Ayodele, DT, Vikings. Age: 29.
Gary Gibson, DT, Rams. Age: 30
Aaron Smith, DE/DT, Steelers. Age: 36.
Anthony Adams, DT, Bears. Age: 32.
Howard Green, NT, Packers. Age: 33.
Vonnie Holliday, DE/DT, Cardinals. Age: 36.
Aaron Smith, DE/DT, Steelers. Age: 36
Tony Brown, DT, Titans. Age: 31.
Jimmy Kennedy, DT, Giants. Age: 32.
Nate Collins, DT, Jaguars. Age: 24.
Nick Hayden (RFA), DT, Bengals. Age: 26.
Mike Wright, DE/DT, Patriots. Age: 30.
DeMario Pressley, DT, Panthers. Age: 26

http://walterfootball.com/freeagents2012DT.php

Wow, I didn't realize how many FA dlinemen there are...

Heyneck
03-22-2012, 09:06 AM
What about bringing in for a visit Amobi Okoye at least?! Dude is only 25 showed potential early on in his career.

Gutless Drunk
03-22-2012, 09:07 AM
Bears sign Michael Bush-the deal is a four-year, $14 million contract with $7 million guaranteed. At an average of $3.5 million a year, thatís the best deal a free-agent running back has received this year.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/03/22/bears-sign-michael-bush/

Heyneck
03-22-2012, 09:10 AM
Bears sign Michael Bush-the deal is a four-year, $14 million contract with $7 million guaranteed. At an average of $3.5 million a year, thatís the best deal a free-agent running back has received this year.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/03/22/bears-sign-michael-bush/

Wow... that Bear's team really is loading up!...
We could not match that contract?! Too many holes... not enough draft picks!

Ray Finkle
03-22-2012, 09:21 AM
Wow... that Bear's team really is loading up!...
We could not match that contract?! Too many holes... not enough draft picks!

the draft is loaded with RB's....why would you pay more money to a player with more mileage on the tires?

Beantown Bronco
03-22-2012, 09:36 AM
the draft is loaded with RB's....why would you pay more money to a player with more mileage on the tires?

You can say that about any position and the answer's the same: because the FA is much more of a "known commodity" while the draft is a crapshoot.

Lestat
03-22-2012, 09:47 AM
should be interesting to see what Cutler can do with a competent GM who knows how to surround him with legit talent.
they still have some big holes but they've filled some things nicely this season.
OL,TE,DL & WR are issues for them still.

Heyneck
03-22-2012, 09:48 AM
the draft is loaded with RB's....why would you pay more money to a player with more mileage on the tires?

Because he is a proven young player. The draft is a lottery... and even then you are not guaranteed to land the targeted talent.

RaiderH8r
03-22-2012, 09:50 AM
the draft is loaded with RB's....why would you pay more money to a player with more mileage on the tires?

This means we're going after Turbin. The Hulk. Turbine. The 226 Turbin model. Comes equipped with light feet, high horse power, and enough torque to knock a defender's dick stiff. The 226 Turbin; draft one today.

Drunken.Broncoholic
03-22-2012, 09:57 AM
Anyone got any word on Tracy Porter?

g6matty
03-22-2012, 09:59 AM
i heard this was one of the things manning had to do to pass his physical and prove his neck is fine

http://lolsnaps.com/upload_pic/Perfectgifnastics-43978.gif

oubronco
03-22-2012, 10:01 AM
Wonder how many times it took him to do that

DBroncos4life
03-22-2012, 10:19 AM
Why isn't anyone looking at Benson?

ayjackson
03-22-2012, 10:26 AM
Please read what I'm responding to. The question presented was "were we ever worse off at the DT position than now." I answered "yes, March 2011".

There is no way to make the argument that we were better at the position in March 2011 than March 2012. Lockout or not, we had one guy on our roster that had any NFL experience. That's it.

Of course we were in a better position a year ago. There was an entire FA class that hadn't been picked through last March. Like today, we had little of any worth on the roster. But last year we had draft and Free Agency to come. This year we have the Draft and the bottom half of Free Agency still to come. Advantage: March 2011.

peacepipe
03-22-2012, 10:27 AM
Why isn't anyone looking at Benson?

head case.

Lestat
03-22-2012, 10:38 AM
a bit of a head case and every time he gets close to fulfilling his potential he manages to get in some sort of trouble.
Why isn't anyone looking at Benson?

Bmore Manning
03-22-2012, 10:42 AM
Whats a good local site, where I can see who they have interest in and who they are looking to bring in for a visit/contract?

I want too see this plan Elway has..

Heyneck
03-22-2012, 10:51 AM
This means we're going after Turbin. The Hulk. Turbine. The 226 Turbin model. Comes equipped with light feet, high horse power, and enough torque to knock a defender's dick stiff. The 226 Turbin; draft one today.

Hope so Brotha! Just hope it's in the 3rd round.

Heyneck
03-22-2012, 10:52 AM
Why isn't anyone looking at Benson?

we don't need another old RB...

eddie mac
03-22-2012, 10:55 AM
Joel Dreesen visiting today.

Lestat
03-22-2012, 10:57 AM
i bet it's either Wilson or Miller we go after. with Manning here i bet we go for a elusive type with solid hands.
Hope so Brotha! Just hope it's in the 3rd round.

Ray Finkle
03-22-2012, 10:59 AM
Because he is a proven young player. The draft is a lottery... and even then you are not guaranteed to land the targeted talent.

Bush has had injury issues and his play dropped when he was the full time RB...

RaiderH8r
03-22-2012, 11:00 AM
Hope so Brotha! Just hope it's in the 3rd round.

Right. 3rd is right, we need D too badly to reach in the 2nd. Anytime after that he is a bigger and bigger steal. Unfortunately I fear somebody will snatch him up before we get a crack in the third. Since we loaded a bit we might be able to make a move up in the third to get him. Depends on cost...as always.

Shananahan
03-22-2012, 11:02 AM
Bush has had injury issues and his play dropped when he was the full time RB...
What injury issues other than a broken leg from college? And his play didn't drop when he became the starter, his YPC simply leveled out. He cranked out plenty of 100-yard games replacing McFadden.

That Bush contract is a steal, I think, and I'm pissed that Denver couldn't offer at least that much for the guy.

Beantown Bronco
03-22-2012, 11:06 AM
Of course we were in a better position a year ago. There was an entire FA class that hadn't been picked through last March. Like today, we had little of any worth on the roster. But last year we had draft and Free Agency to come. This year we have the Draft and the bottom half of Free Agency still to come. Advantage: March 2011.

Sorry, but that's flawed logic.

March 2011: Vickerson under contract.
March 2012: Vickerson and Warren under contract.

Doesn't matter what "could" happen in the months to follow. All that matters is what we had on those dates. Just because we potentially had access to more FAs in 2011 doesn't mean anything. All that matters is who we had under contract at those dates.

If you really want to play that game though, in theory one could argue that we have access to just as many players today as we did then. We could trade for or sign any DT in the league right now if we really wanted to.

TonyR
03-22-2012, 11:39 AM
Bears sign Michael Bush-the deal is a four-year, $14 million contract with $7 million guaranteed. At an average of $3.5 million a year, thatís the best deal a free-agent running back has received this year.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/03/22/bears-sign-michael-bush/

That's a head scratcher. When you already have Forte making big $ at the position why would you pay so much for a backup?

BroncoBen
03-22-2012, 11:46 AM
That's a head scratcher. When you already have Forte making big $ at the position why would you pay so much for a backup?

Good point.. the draft is suppose to be deep at RB and that is why many of the free agent running backs are not being looked at.

You figure with a rookie you get someone younger, healthier, and cheaper (rookie salary cap).

Ray Finkle
03-22-2012, 11:47 AM
What injury issues other than a broken leg from college? And his play didn't drop when he became the starter, his YPC simply leveled out. He cranked out plenty of 100-yard games replacing McFadden.

That Bush contract is a steal, I think, and I'm pissed that Denver couldn't offer at least that much for the guy.

you were right, I thought he had some hamstring issue but it may just be the glue I was huffing....

ayjackson
03-22-2012, 12:07 PM
March 2011: Vickerson under contract.
March 2012: Vickerson and Warren under contract.



If you're strictly talking about what's on the roster, then I agree. We're better off this year.

If you're talking about strength of DT's in the draft class, then I'd agree we're better off this year.

If you're talking about ability to improve the DT position in FA, we were better off a year ago.

How the above three items net out, I'm not sure, but I'd guess that over the long run, a strong draft class is better than a fully stocked FA class. So I'd agree from that perspective.

If you want to talk about everyone including DT's under contract with other teams, sorry, I don't play games.

:D

Drek
03-22-2012, 01:46 PM
Sorry, but that's flawed logic.

March 2011: Vickerson under contract.
March 2012: Vickerson and Warren under contract.

Doesn't matter what "could" happen in the months to follow. All that matters is what we had on those dates. Just because we potentially had access to more FAs in 2011 doesn't mean anything. All that matters is who we had under contract at those dates.

If you really want to play that game though, in theory one could argue that we have access to just as many players today as we did then. We could trade for or sign any DT in the league right now if we really wanted to.

This makes great sense. The availability of talent is irrelevant to the Broncos DT situation because its not like the Broncos will acquire DTs that other NFL teams actually want. So in reality the talent pool the Broncos pick DTs is far larger than other NFL clubs. Our talent pool is the entire population of the planet minus anyone who can earn more than the NFL's league minimum to do something else. Other teams limit themselves to picking within the "guys who have played DT at a high level before" to severely limit themselves. LOT OF GOOD TALENT LEFT OUT THERE!

Baba Booey
03-22-2012, 02:03 PM
Dreesen would be a terrific pickup. Hope he chooses us.

Also hoping we can land Porter soon.

Gcver2ver3
03-22-2012, 02:07 PM
been quiet for us on the free agent front (aside from signing Manning of course)...

thats a bit surprising to me...

pricejj
03-22-2012, 02:11 PM
Dreesen would be a terrific pickup. Hope he chooses us.

Also hoping we can land Porter soon.

Well, Dreesen's wife and baby live in Colorado, so it shouldn't be too hard of a sell.

According to Pro Football Focus, Dreesen is the top TE available. They graded him at +10.0 on the season. Along with being a decent pass catcher, Dreessen can also block. PFF graded him at +3.8 in pass blocking and +5.1 in run blocking on the season, including Houstonís two playoff games. In that span, Dreesen was called to run block for over 400 snaps. He was a major part of Houstonís lethal rushing attack.

Probably going to have to give him $2M per year (he made $1.45M two years ago). Sounds like he would definitely be worth it. He would be an upgrade over Fells/Rosario. After that, we would be done with the TE position.

Now all we need is Marcus Thomas, Jeff Saturday, Tracy Porter, and Brandon Stokely. Draft a WR (Wright/Hill/Sanu) in the 1st round, a DT (Crick/Wolfe) in the 2nd, and an explosive RB (James/Turbin/Polk) in the 3rd, and draft a CB (Judie) in the 4th...and we're good to go.

lolcopter
03-22-2012, 02:14 PM
Plus he's a rammie so there's the hanie connection whatup

Archer81
03-22-2012, 02:31 PM
We're holding your baby hostage in Colorado, Dreesen...you know what to do.


:charge:


That's a little creepy for a sales pitch.


:Broncos:

pricejj
03-22-2012, 02:48 PM
...scratch that


I meant...you have a wonderful family Dreesen! They sure do miss you!! Come back home :D

Regards,

Peyton Manning

SonOfLe-loLang
03-22-2012, 02:59 PM
Well, Dreesen's wife and baby live in Colorado, so it shouldn't be too hard of a sell.

According to Pro Football Focus, Dreesen is the top TE available. They graded him at +10.0 on the season. Along with being a decent pass catcher, Dreessen can also block. PFF graded him at +3.8 in pass blocking and +5.1 in run blocking on the season, including Houstonís two playoff games. In that span, Dreesen was called to run block for over 400 snaps. He was a major part of Houstonís lethal rushing attack.

Probably going to have to give him $2M per year (he made $1.45M two years ago). Sounds like he would definitely be worth it. He would be an upgrade over Fells/Rosario. After that, we would be done with the TE position.

Now all we need is Marcus Thomas, Jeff Saturday, Tracy Porter, and Brandon Stokely. Draft a WR (Wright/Hill/Sanu) in the 1st round, a DT (Crick/Wolfe) in the 2nd, and an explosive RB (James/Turbin/Polk) in the 3rd, and draft a CB (Judie) in the 4th...and we're good to go.

We still have massive holes at DT...im not sure why you want to draft a WR in the first

pricejj
03-22-2012, 03:07 PM
We still have massive holes at DT...im not sure why you want to draft a WR in the first

If Marcus Thomas signs, and they get a guy in free agency (Henderson, Okoye, Sammie Lee Hill), we're good to go. Ty Warren was supposed to be the starter anyway. The Broncos only picked up Bunkley after Ty tore his pectoral...no big loss.

After that, all we need is a pass-rushing UT on the DLine...I'm not impressed with any of the 1st round DT's except Coples and Cox...the rest belong in the 2nd round IMO, they are all NT's.

An elite 1st round receiver would be much more valuable...Peyton isn't going to last long.

The Patriots scored 45 on us the last game, and our team hasn't changed much, except adding Peyton Manning. Give him some more weapons. Just by adding a guy like Devon Still, isn't going to make a difference against the Patriots. We need to score a lot of points, and come up with timely stops.

I would much rather draft Sanu and Crick...then Still and Quick.

Rohirrim
03-22-2012, 03:14 PM
the draft is loaded with RB's....why would you pay more money to a player with more mileage on the tires?

I'm afraid that pretty soon the league model is going to be; Draft a RB. Use him three years. Cut him loose. Draft another one. Rinse and Repeat. Meanwhile, keep a couple of cheap vets on the roster.

They're legislating the running game out of football.

I'll bet there are damn good RBs available in the 4th round. We can use that Tebow pick on one.

pricejj
03-22-2012, 03:33 PM
Once we make the Offense into one of the best in the league, with additions of Saturday, Dreesen, and a 1st round WR....

Older Defensive Lineman towards the end of their careers will WANT to be on the Broncos (like Neil Smith, and Alfred Williams), there is no need to draft some young guy at the end of the 1st round, who will take years to develop (and has a 50% chance of being a bust).

We have MANNING...build it like the '98 Broncos (with more emphasis on the passing game).

Cito Pelon
03-22-2012, 03:34 PM
We have to actually fill out the roster only at TE, QB.

Other than that, they have the depth chart filled up right now. So they might be all done with FA.

EDIT: Only 3 DE's listed on the roster, so they may still go after one.

Lestat
03-22-2012, 03:49 PM
you still need a DT early, the options out there are pretty long in the tooth or younger guys who haven't reached their potential.
the Broncos are a young team in win now mode but still have to build for the future when Manning isn't here is 3-6 seasons.
Once we make the Offense into one of the best in the league, with additions of Saturday, Dreesen, and a 1st round WR....

Older Defensive Lineman towards the end of their careers will WANT to be on the Broncos (like Neil Smith, and Alfred Williams), there is no need to draft some young guy at the end of the 1st round, who will take years to develop (and has a 50% chance of being a bust).

We have MANNING...build it like the '98 Broncos (with more emphasis on the passing game).

elsid13
03-22-2012, 04:57 PM
Has anyone heard if they are bringing Vernon Carey in for a look? I think he would be good signing for either RT/OG position.

eddie mac
03-22-2012, 06:06 PM
Porter on the verge of 1 year deal according to LaCaforna

CEH
03-22-2012, 06:08 PM
Porter on the verge of 1 year deal according to LaCaforna

Signed sealed and delivered

g6matty
03-22-2012, 06:09 PM
Adam Schefter ‏ @AdamSchefter Reply Retweet Favorite ∑ Open
Former Saints CB Tracy Porter reached agreement on a one-year deal with Peyton Manning's Broncos.



yesssssssssssss

SonOfLe-loLang
03-22-2012, 06:10 PM
Adam Schefter ‏ @AdamSchefter Reply Retweet Favorite ∑ Open
Former Saints CB Tracy Porter reached agreement on a one-year deal with Peyton Manning's Broncos.



yesssssssssssss

Sweet...why only 1-yr i wonder?

broncosteven
03-22-2012, 06:11 PM
Porter on the verge of 1 year deal according to LaCaforna

Great news! Why only 1 year though? He wants a bigger payday next year?

g6matty
03-22-2012, 06:13 PM
Great news! Why only 1 year though? He wants a bigger payday next year?

wants to make sure peytons neck doesnt snap after 2 plays

extralife
03-22-2012, 06:16 PM
1 year deal for a guy in his mid 20's is really weird. makes me think there's something up.

Archer81
03-22-2012, 06:18 PM
He was a Saint. Could be one of those players who could possibly be suspended for the bounty thing. Never know.

In any event, welcome to Denver, Mr Porter.

:Broncos:

Requiem
03-22-2012, 06:19 PM
(1) Investigation of players for bounty program
(2) Porter has not proven to be healthy for all sixteen games in a season yet.

If he passes the rest, I'm sure he'll be extended.

The Joker
03-22-2012, 06:19 PM
Good news is that he'll be playing balls out this year trying to earn a long term deal next year.

Bad news is that if he does that we may not be able to keep him.

Hope we draft a CB early on top of this.

Good news all in all though, welcome to Denver Tracy. :)

g6matty
03-22-2012, 06:19 PM
1 year deal for a guy in his mid 20's is really weird. makes me think there's something up.

i think he shot down the saints depth chart this past year.

we want to see if he can be our number 2 and next year throw the money and re sign the guy

BOHICA
03-22-2012, 06:20 PM
Adam Schefter ‏ @AdamSchefter Reply Retweet Favorite ∑ Open
Former Saints CB Tracy Porter reached agreement on a one-year deal with Peyton Manning's Broncos.



yesssssssssssss

I wonder how much of the season he is going to miss due to bounty-related suspension????

extralife
03-22-2012, 06:20 PM
Guys.

I hate to say it, but...

Fat Albert, come on down.

Gcver2ver3
03-22-2012, 06:21 PM
I wonder how much of the season he is going to miss due to bounty-related suspension????

i heard only defensive captains wo0uld get suspended...

he wasn't a captain was he?...

Steve Prefontaine
03-22-2012, 06:26 PM
I didn't see him much this year, but Porter has to be an upgrade over Goodman, right? Right? Please, right?

elsid13
03-22-2012, 06:27 PM
Larson is a Patriot

http://www.bostonherald.com/blogs/sports/rap_sheet/index.php/2012/03/22/patriots-agree-to-terms-with-spencer-larsen-one-of-the-most-patriots-type-players-ever/

Frosty78
03-22-2012, 06:28 PM
Great news! Why only 1 year though? He wants a bigger payday next year?

New TV contract for the league means the salary cap will be higher next year. Reason for all of the one or two year deals you see around the league.

baja
03-22-2012, 06:28 PM
1 year deal for a guy in his mid 20's is really weird. makes me think there's something up.

Well at least he will be playing in a contract year. ;D

Lestat
03-22-2012, 06:31 PM
excellent news, if he balls out we sign him to an extension and if he sucks we cut bait and part ways.

this is a instant upgrade at the #2 CB position and would allow us to be a bit more aggressive on man to man coverage.

Archer81
03-22-2012, 06:34 PM
excellent news, if he balls out we sign him to an extension and if he sucks we cut bait and part ways.

this is a instant upgrade at the #2 CB position and would allow us to be a bit more aggressive on man to man coverage.


Our corners should be better with Champ, Porter, Harris and Goodman. Bet we grab a vet safety in the next week or so.

:Broncos:

Lestat
03-22-2012, 06:39 PM
vet S was the first thing we signed. Mike Adams.
Our corners should be better with Champ, Porter, Harris and Goodman. Bet we grab a vet safety in the next week or so.

:Broncos:

elsid13
03-22-2012, 06:41 PM
Our corners should be better with Champ, Porter, Harris and Goodman. Bet we grab a vet safety in the next week or so.

:Broncos:

With Mike Adams on board, I doubt that happens.

Archer81
03-22-2012, 06:42 PM
vet S was the first thing we signed. Mike Adams.


I dont think he makes it out of camp, TBH.

:Broncos:

Requiem
03-22-2012, 06:45 PM
Tracy Bo Bace yes!!!

Rohirrim
03-22-2012, 06:49 PM
See? Ye of little faith.

Lestat
03-22-2012, 06:53 PM
they didn't sign him for camp fodder, this is one of those value signings they love.
I dont think he makes it out of camp, TBH.

:Broncos:

Baba Booey
03-22-2012, 06:55 PM
Give me Dreesen and a couple of depth DT's and I'll be satisfied until the draft.

And I guess a FB too with Larsen gone.

Lestat
03-22-2012, 07:04 PM
i hope to see this from Porter a lot this season
http://youtu.be/DBlvjtfpPAg

RaiderH8r
03-22-2012, 07:17 PM
Guys.

I hate to say it, but...

Fat Albert, come on down.

Absolutely not. No way no how stay the **** away. It would be better to throw a suitcase full of $20s into a bonfire and then stick your dick in an automated cheese grater. It will be cheaper and less painful than bringing in that simpering sack of sucktitude. He has had exactly one useful year in his life...his entire life. He couldn't get up to play ball for Bellycheat he's just going to come here and pull Darryl Gardner out of the top spot of worst football players in Broncos history.

broncswin
03-22-2012, 07:26 PM
So..what about cedric benson? I know he has some baggage, but give him a two year incentive built deal..now that Bengals got green-ellis they are done with him.

TheReverend
03-22-2012, 07:28 PM
Porter should've gotten a 4 year deal, but glad we got him either way. We can just hit dat extension towards the back end of the season when were 10-2 and he's killin it too.

Rohirrim
03-22-2012, 07:28 PM
Watching a Mayock interview with Luck at Stanford pro day. Luck always sounds like he's talking from three feet below surface level of a swamp.

Lestat
03-22-2012, 07:41 PM
he also always looks like a squirrel with his cheeks stuffed with nuts when he talks but the man can sling that football like few others.

Dedhed
03-22-2012, 07:44 PM
i hope to see this from Porter a lot this season
http://youtu.be/DBlvjtfpPAg

I doubt you'll see much of Porter picking off Manning.

Lestat
03-22-2012, 07:45 PM
no, but he certainly needs to do that to opposing QB's.
I doubt you'll see much of Porter picking off Manning.

Old Dude
03-22-2012, 07:50 PM
Guys.

I hate to say it, but...

Fat Albert, come on down.

No, no, no. Go back to sleep. It was just a dream.

BOHICA
03-22-2012, 08:01 PM
I dont think he makes it out of camp, TBH.

:Broncos:

Really? I thought he was pretty solid last year.

cutthemdown
03-22-2012, 08:01 PM
I dont think he makes it out of camp, TBH.

:Broncos:

If the Moore and Carter looked really good any of the vet safetys could find themselves cut.

Adams a steady but unspectacular player, i think he sticks this yr for sure.

MABroncoFan
03-22-2012, 08:35 PM
Reportedly interested in signing free agents C Jeff Saturday and TE Jacob Tamme, the Broncos are being held up by stiff competition from other teams.
According to NFL Network's Jason LaCanfora the Seahawks are "very intent" on signing Tamme after losing John Carlson to the Vikings. With strong interest from the Packers and Titans, Saturday is weighing all three options rather than simply following Peyton Manning to Denver. Related: Titans, Packers, Jacob Tamme, Seahawks, Broncos
Source: NFL.com Mar 22 - 8:31 PM

razorwire77
03-22-2012, 08:50 PM
Let the Hawks overpay for Tamme. Just draft a TE like Michael Egnew in the 3rd or 4th round.

6'6 245 4.6 speed with 36 inch vertical.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whn7-waOvVs

MVP-06
03-22-2012, 08:54 PM
Manning could make something out of OJ, don't overpay for Tamme. Plug in Clark for a year if we have to.

cutthemdown
03-22-2012, 09:21 PM
I think Elway smart enough to let players walk when the price gets too high. Sucks because I would like to have those guys, and Bunkley etc, but I am starting to trust Elway and company more and more. I think we just get impatient around here and everyone goes crazy 65 hours into FA.

cutthemdown
03-22-2012, 09:23 PM
really though its not my money, i don't really care if they overpay. :) I want as many good players as we can fit under the cap. Most likely though Denver carried all that over for flexibility, not to spend it all.

Lestat
03-22-2012, 09:25 PM
Elway has yet to overpay a player(sans Mays) so i trust his judgement in that area. he seems intent on making sure the Broncos are cap healthy throughout his tenure.

cutthemdown
03-22-2012, 09:28 PM
Elway has yet to overpay a player(sans Mays) so i trust his judgement in that area. he seems intent on making sure the Broncos are cap healthy throughout his tenure.

I wish we knew how much NO offered him. Maybe teams liked him more then fans. Often some players we think are better then they are, some we downgrade when maybe they played pretty well. Mays plays hard though, so at least we know hes trying hard.

Lestat
03-22-2012, 09:35 PM
maybe Del Rio thinks highly of him and wanted him back. i don't know, but 3 years,12 mil seems like too much.
I wish we knew how much NO offered him. Maybe teams liked him more then fans. Often some players we think are better then they are, some we downgrade when maybe they played pretty well. Mays plays hard though, so at least we know hes trying hard.

Chris
03-22-2012, 09:39 PM
really though its not my money, i don't really care if they overpay. :) I want as many good players as we can fit under the cap. Most likely though Denver carried all that over for flexibility, not to spend it all.

Can you carry over to next season again?

Just think in 2020 we could have a 300 million dollar cap.

pricejj
03-22-2012, 10:36 PM
Manning could make something out of OJ, don't overpay for Tamme. Plug in Clark for a year if we have to.

Joel Dreesen is deciding right now if he wants to be a Bronco, and if he does, that is very good for us. "The Decision" comes tomorrow...

Our corners should be better with Champ, Porter, Harris and Goodman. Bet we grab a vet safety in the next week or so.

:Broncos:


Mike Adams is good, man. We needed a solid FS in the worst way. He is the best Safety on the team against the pass...you'll see.

The only vet safety we may be signing is Dawkins, and I don't know if they will do that, because we already have 5 safeties (Adams, Carter, Bruton, Bush, Moore) who we can't afford to let go. If we sign Dreessen or Tamme, it would be awesome because we could finally get rid of Paxton (waste of space)...perhaps making room for Dawkins to be the starting SS...

:strong:

Archer81
03-23-2012, 12:34 AM
Mike Adams is good, man. We needed a solid FS in the worst way. He is the best Safety on the team against the pass...you'll see.

The only vet safety we may be signing is Dawkins, and I don't know if they will do that, because we already have 5 safeties (Adams, Carter, Bruton, Bush, Moore) who we can't afford to let go. If we sign Dreessen or Tamme, it would be awesome because we could finally get rid of Paxton (waste of space)...perhaps making room for Dawkins to be the starting SS...

:strong:


We'll see. I have a hard time believing he is any good when Cleveland let him walk.

:Broncos:

cutthemdown
03-23-2012, 12:37 AM
We'll see. I have a hard time believing he is any good when Cleveland let him walk.

:Broncos:

Funny so on one hand you want to sign FA to make team better. But on the other why are they FA, they must suck or team would have kept team. LOL!

Awesome catch 22 Sirhcyennek81

cutthemdown
03-23-2012, 12:39 AM
Can you carry over to next season again?

Just think in 2020 we could have a 300 million dollar cap.

You know what? I have no idea, i just heard this yr that was going on. Maybe it doesn't continue not sure.

Ratboy
03-23-2012, 12:59 AM
http://i.imgur.com/3AkuR.jpg

Archer81
03-23-2012, 01:04 AM
Funny so on one hand you want to sign FA to make team better. But on the other why are they FA, they must suck or team would have kept team. LOL!

Awesome catch 22 Sirhcyennek81


I understand why teams let players walk. Sometimes the economics of it wont work. But tell me, before the Broncos signed him did you stay awake at night hoping one day Mike Adams would be a Bronco? Did you even know who he was? Did he even start for Cleveland?

I get that EFX want low cost, high impact guys...but of all the safeties they could have gone after, the only fit was Adams? Really?

:Broncos:

pricejj
03-23-2012, 01:37 AM
I understand why teams let players walk. Sometimes the economics of it wont work. But tell me, before the Broncos signed him did you stay awake at night hoping one day Mike Adams would be a Bronco? Did you even know who he was? Did he even start for Cleveland?

I get that EFX want low cost, high impact guys...but of all the safeties they could have gone after, the only fit was Adams? Really?

:Broncos:

The only FS I really wanted was Reggie Nelson (Bengals), who signed a 4 year $18M contract to sign with his own team, who probably only went to visit the Jets to set his contract price...

Mike Adams started for Cleveland, and his backup was making more than he was...they probably just decided to go with the younger guy. At least we will be lined up correctly, unlike at the end of last year. Obviously, it's not a long term solution...just long enough for Moore to develop, and if not, move on. Solid pick-up. Hopefully he will be better than Renaldo Hill.

cutthemdown
03-23-2012, 01:39 AM
I understand why teams let players walk. Sometimes the economics of it wont work. But tell me, before the Broncos signed him did you stay awake at night hoping one day Mike Adams would be a Bronco? Did you even know who he was? Did he even start for Cleveland?

I get that EFX want low cost, high impact guys...but of all the safeties they could have gone after, the only fit was Adams? Really?

:Broncos:

I had seen him on the field before, looked, and noticed most media had him rated the 4th-6th best FA safety on the market. Saying things like steady vet safety etc. Probably not a game changer but a solid player if the rest of the defense plays well etc etc.

cutthemdown
03-23-2012, 01:40 AM
The only FS I really wanted was Reggie Nelson (Bengals), who signed a 4 year $18M contract to sign with his own team, who probably only went to visit the Jets to set his contract price...

Mike Adams started for Cleveland, and his backup was making more than he was...they probably just decided to go with the younger guy. At least we will be lined up correctly, unlike at the end of last year. Obviously, it's not a long term solution...just long enough for Moore to develop, and if not, move on. Solid pick-up. Hopefully he will be better than Renaldo Hill.

I agree a solid move considering we just drafted 2 young safetys. Its just people around here give players a few games to play well then they write them off. Broncos wont give up on Carter and Moore just yet. Its good to just get a decent vet safety to fill out the group.

oubronco
03-23-2012, 05:43 AM
Carter played well last yr for being a rookie and will only get better

Bmore Manning
03-23-2012, 06:03 AM
Mike Adams is quietly good. He is very well rounded, good at all aspects of his game just not GREAT. But he can be a competent starter, a great back up and special teamer.

Go after Atogwe for FS..or draft Martin

JLesSPE
03-23-2012, 07:34 AM
Dreessen has agreed to terms according to Twitter

Baba Booey
03-23-2012, 07:40 AM
Dreesen will be a Bronco, according to rumblings on the Twitter

Rabb
03-23-2012, 07:40 AM
Dreessen has agreed to terms according to Twitter

Love this

g6matty
03-23-2012, 07:42 AM
dont know much about the guy but he averages 12 yards a catch. not bad

Dedhed
03-23-2012, 08:06 AM
If true, Dreesen is a great signing. Will bring immediate solidity to the position while Thomas and Green continue to develop. We can pretty much take TE off the immediate needs list.

Beantown Bronco
03-23-2012, 08:30 AM
Can he play DT?

Just kidding. Nice job, EFX. Gotta give credit where credit is due. This really does sound like the best possible signing at the position.

I've gotta say. I'm a lot happier about this FA period than I was a week ago. It'll be interesting to see what their plan is at DT and LB. I'd say we're looking pretty good otherwise.

eddie mac
03-23-2012, 10:07 AM
No Saturday/no Bunkley major **** up there on both lines.

eddie mac
03-23-2012, 10:10 AM
Per Klis

Broncos trying to re-sign Jason Hunter

Ronnie Tsunami
03-23-2012, 10:20 AM
Per Klis

Broncos trying to re-sign Jason Hunter

I think you mean Ja'son Hunteer

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/PJeUd5xRiyo" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

RADRHATR
03-23-2012, 10:22 AM
#broncos Report: Broncos negotiating with Colts FA TE Tamme http://cbsprt.co/GRXyOV

Per CBS Sports

Gutless Drunk
03-23-2012, 10:34 AM
Some LB movement. RT @Ravens: Ravens have re-signed free-agent inside linebacker Jameel McClain.
Adam Schefter
@AdamSchefter

ayjackson
03-23-2012, 10:40 AM
LBs still available: Curtis Lofton, London Fletcher, EJ Henderson, DeAndre Levy, Leroy Hill, Geno Hayes, Brady James, David Hawthorne....among lesserlites.

MVP-06
03-23-2012, 10:44 AM
I like the Henderson kid

eddie mac
03-23-2012, 11:47 AM
Derrick Harvey DE signs for the Bengals.

RaiderH8r
03-23-2012, 11:55 AM
Love some London Fletcher but...too much money to Mays, we have Irving and going three deep with two starter salaries at the position is probably not a good move. Wish we would have run for Fletcher, let Mays walk, and groomed Irving. BOOM!

eddie mac
03-23-2012, 12:00 PM
Forget about MLB, this team as we stand has literally dick at DT. Any money left needs to be utilised there including money that was set aside to offer a deal to Saturday.

Have to find something out of Sims, Thomas, Landri, Rogers etc etc

JLesSPE
03-23-2012, 12:08 PM
Tamme signed with Denver, 3 yrs 9M 3.5 grntd per Jason La Confora

eddie mac
03-23-2012, 12:13 PM
That's a nice contract for Tamme, nowhere near worth it IMO, but time will tell with Manning. Loads of double TE sets next season then.

RaiderH8r
03-23-2012, 12:35 PM
When I was a young boy I grew up listening to the wind of the Rocky Mountains in Montana. My father taught me to listen to the wind, as his father taught him, and his father before him. I learned to hear the call of the meadowlark, the sound of a summer rain, the song of the wind blowing across a mountainside full of lodge pole pines. The trees swayed to and fro; yielding to the wind but rarely breaking, as they engaged in an everlasting dance of nature.

I have grown now and have children of my own. I have long since moved away from the rural landscape of my youth. That unique and special landscape that brought me so much joy as a child, a boy, and a young man. However, I still listen to the wind. Even in this city, this city that lies thousands of miles from my Rocky Mountain home (for if you were raised in the Rockies you know they are ever your home) even here I can listen to the wind. It has been a long time since I could hear the cry of the Rocky Mountain wind in my east coast world but these days the wind has begun to speak to me again. Across the plains, across the miles, across time and space I hear the wind, that glorious Rocky Mountain wind and at night, lying in bed when the hustle and bustle of the city life quiets ever so briefly I hear the wind and the wind whispers "Turbin".

swaiy
03-23-2012, 12:49 PM
When I was a young boy I grew up listening to the wind of the Rocky Mountains in Montana. My father taught me to listen to the wind, as his father taught him, and his father before him. I learned to hear the call of the meadowlark, the sound of a summer rain, the song of the wind blowing across a mountainside full of lodge pole pines. The trees swayed to and fro; yielding to the wind but rarely breaking, as they engaged in an everlasting dance of nature.

I have grown now and have children of my own. I have long since moved away from the rural landscape of my youth. That unique and special landscape that brought me so much joy as a child, a boy, and a young man. However, I still listen to the wind. Even in this city, this city that lies thousands of miles from my Rocky Mountain home (for if you were raised in the Rockies you know they are ever your home) even here I can listen to the wind. It has been a long time since I could hear the cry of the Rocky Mountain wind in my east coast world but these days the wind has begun to speak to me again. Across the plains, across the miles, across time and space I hear the wind, that glorious Rocky Mountain wind and at night, lying in bed when the hustle and bustle of the city life quiets ever so briefly I hear the wind and the wind whispers "Turbin".

I'm a little upset I read that but I must admit I appreciate the creativity.

extralife
03-23-2012, 12:51 PM
A little pissed off we didn't get Saturday. Still pissed off about Mays and Bunkley.

eddie mac
03-23-2012, 12:54 PM
Dreesen and Tamme got very similar deals, Dreesen 3 years $8.5m, Tamme 3 years $9m.

TheReverend
03-23-2012, 01:16 PM
Really pleased with the TE renovation. A lot of skill there now as opposed to... well... since Sharpe retired.

Lestat
03-23-2012, 01:18 PM
both very nice deals for the TE signees. they're both gonna have a lot more value than 2.8-3 mil per year. i expect each to snag 600+ yards this season.
this essentially rules out any TE's before the 5th round if at all this draft unless the value is insane.

Lestat
03-23-2012, 01:19 PM
in fairness though,Putz and Scheff had a lot of talent, just couldn't stay healthy.
Really pleased with the TE renovation. A lot of skill there now as opposed to... well... since Sharpe retired.

Baba Booey
03-23-2012, 01:59 PM
Really hoping Irving can develop under Del Rio. I'll be disappointed if he doesn't make a string run at the starting spot in camp.

gyldenlove
03-23-2012, 03:05 PM
Really pleased with the TE renovation. A lot of skill there now as opposed to... well... since Sharpe retired.

This really puts DT, OL and RB as the absolute main needs going into the draft, I am expecting to see 2 of those 3 positions addressed in rounds 1 and 2.

2KBack
03-23-2012, 03:17 PM
in fairness though,Putz and Scheff had a lot of talent, just couldn't stay healthy.

Scheff was a pussy....Putz was tough as nails though

lonestar
03-23-2012, 03:26 PM
Scheff was a p***Y....Putz was tough as nails though

I think your dead on with this one.

scheffler had loads of talent but short armed a lot of passes where he would have taken huge hits..

Putz gave it all up for making a catch.. unfortunately he was cashing checks his body could not handle..

neither of them were Sharpe but as close was we have been since he left.

Lestat
03-23-2012, 03:27 PM
yeah but he was a top receiving TE p***Y. i never said he was tough(far,far,far from it), just talented.
Scheff was a p***Y....Putz was tough as nails though

2KBack
03-23-2012, 03:39 PM
yeah but he was a top receiving TE p***Y. i never said he was tough(far,far,far from it), just talented.

I just hated is complete lack of blocking and inability (or unwillingness) to out muscle and use his size to fight for the ball. Seeing 5'10" corners out jumping him for the ball got old.

Lestat
03-23-2012, 03:47 PM
oh no doubt, a grown ass 6-5 255 lb freak like him should have been Gronkowski like, but he just didn't want it enough.
I just hated is complete lack of blocking and inability (or unwillingness) to out muscle and use his size to fight for the ball. Seeing 5'10" corners out jumping him for the ball got old.

DBroncos4life
03-23-2012, 04:26 PM
Henderson signed with the Vikings and Stallworth to the Pats

DBroncos4life
03-23-2012, 04:29 PM
Diem retired also

barryr
03-23-2012, 04:45 PM
Cross off TE for the draft with Tamme, Dreesen, Thomas, and Green. Not a great unit, but solid enough, especially if Thomas develops.

Rabb
03-23-2012, 04:49 PM
Cross off TE for the draft with Tamme, Dreesen, Thomas, and Green. Not a great unit, but solid enough, especially if Thomas develops.

lol

eddie mac
03-24-2012, 06:15 AM
John Henderson retired yesterday.

27atwater
03-24-2012, 06:57 AM
damn..i wanted Henderson and Haynesworth side by side 1 more time.

Karenin
03-24-2012, 07:01 AM
lol

what are you lol'ing at? Not only are they not a great unit, they are pretty much a sack full of crap. Cast-offs, has beens and never weres. Unless that was what you were lol'ing at.

Smilin Assassin
03-24-2012, 07:17 AM
what are you lol'ing at? Not only are they not a great unit, they are pretty much a sack full of crap. Cast-offs, has beens and never weres. Unless that was what you were lol'ing at.


Dreessen and Tamme actually make this a very solid group.

Thomas & Green? Untapped, and unknown. But as a whole, TE is a strength right now.

bowtown
03-24-2012, 07:21 AM
what are you lol'ing at? Not only are they not a great unit, they are pretty much a sack full of crap. Cast-offs, has beens and never weres. Unless that was what you were lol'ing at.

You're projecting.

broncswin
03-24-2012, 07:31 AM
This really puts DT, OL and RB as the absolute main needs going into the draft, I am expecting to see 2 of those 3 positions addressed in rounds 1 and 2.

I think dt for sure in the 1st or2nd..maybe both(dreaming)...but I really believe we sign or trade for a rb...hopefully Stewart, but could sign Benson on an incentive based deal...we wil then pick up at least two ol in the draft

Karenin
03-24-2012, 07:35 AM
Dreessen and Tamme actually make this a very solid group.

Thomas & Green? Untapped, and unknown. But as a whole, TE is a strength right now.

Two career backups and two crappy young players? Woo hoo!

elsid13
03-24-2012, 07:37 AM
This really puts DT, OL and RB as the absolute main needs going into the draft, I am expecting to see 2 of those 3 positions addressed in rounds 1 and 2.

I wouldn't be surprised if they bring in another WR in the draft. I actually think Decker is better out of the slot then the X position.

rugbythug
03-24-2012, 07:45 AM
Two career backups and two crappy young players? Woo hoo!

Owen Daniels and Dallas Clark.

You sign players for what they will do not what they have done. These guys will be fine and a solid upgrade over our TE position of last year.

rugbythug
03-24-2012, 07:47 AM
I wouldn't be surprised if they bring in another WR in the draft. I actually think Decker is better out of the slot then the X position.

I disagree. Decker seems fully capable of betting press man. That is a skill I want on the outside. Give me a slot guy who has the speeeed and needs protected. A guy who scares the defenses-Percy Harvin Etc..

Karenin
03-24-2012, 08:16 AM
Owen Daniels and Dallas Clark.

You sign players for what they will do not what they have done. These guys will be fine and a solid upgrade over our TE position of last year.

Well then they should have signed actual Dallas Clark instead of backup Dallas Clark. But hey, I get it, the plan is to appease the fan base by signing Manning, then spending the rest of the cap room on bargain basement garbage.

rugbythug
03-24-2012, 08:24 AM
Well then they should have signed actual Dallas Clark instead of backup Dallas Clark. But hey, I get it, the plan is to appease the fan base by signing Manning, then spending the rest of the cap room on bargain basement garbage.

A little slow this one is.

Carmelo15
03-24-2012, 08:30 AM
I disagree. Decker seems fully capable of betting press man. That is a skill I want on the outside. Give me a slot guy who has the speeeed and needs protected. A guy who scares the defenses-Percy Harvin Etc..

I believe you just described Kendall Wright

Requiem
03-24-2012, 08:30 AM
Karenin has never seem Tamme or Dreesen play. He'd rather stick crayons in his ass and watch Barney.

Lestat
03-24-2012, 08:36 AM
dear lord, when we sign no one people complain, when we sign clear upgrades and up and comers people complain, if we didn't sign them and they went elsewhere people would be complaining about letting them get away and the FO being cheap.

TheReverend
03-24-2012, 08:38 AM
dear lord, when we sign no one people complain, when we sign clear upgrades and up and comers people complain, if we didn't sign them and they went elsewhere people would be complaining about letting them get away and the FO being cheap.

Haha, that's only somewhat true.

I think the vast majority of people have been pretty pleased with all the moves that have taken place since Manning was signed.

Broncoman13
03-24-2012, 08:43 AM
I believe you just described Kendall Wright

Kendall Wright worries me. Don't get me wrong, I think he has the upside of a Percy Harvin but I also see a decent amount of bust potential, like a Golden Tate. In fact, if I had to compare him to one or the other, I'd probably compare him more to Tate than to Harvin. Wright had a heck of a QB throwing him the ball... hard to say if Wright made RGIII look good or the other way around.

Also, why draft a WR that is basically identical to Caldwell? If the Broncos see untapped potential in Caldwell then no point in drafting Wright early. He does fill a need, but how much better is he than a guy like Ryan Broyles who you can probably get in the 3rd round? In fact, at this point I would prefer Broyles in the 3rd over any receiver in the first... save for Blackmon of course.

Use our first on a DT. Still, Poe, Brockers, Cox... one of them will drop!

DENVERDUI55
03-24-2012, 08:43 AM
Well then they should have signed actual Dallas Clark instead of backup Dallas Clark. But hey, I get it, the plan is to appease the fan base by signing Manning, then spending the rest of the cap room on bargain basement garbage.

Yeah let's sign a washed up has been 30+ year old TE. The market has been hot for him you know.

Bmore Manning
03-24-2012, 08:52 AM
Kendall Wright worries me. Don't get me wrong, I think he has the upside of a Percy Harvin but I also see a decent amount of bust potential, like a Golden Tate. In fact, if I had to compare him to one or the other, I'd probably compare him more to Tate than to Harvin. Wright had a heck of a QB throwing him the ball... hard to say if Wright made RGIII look good or the other way around.

Also, why draft a WR that is basically identical to Caldwell? If the Broncos see untapped potential in Caldwell then no point in drafting Wright early. He does fill a need, but how much better is he than a guy like Ryan Broyles who you can probably get in the 3rd round? In fact, at this point I would prefer Broyles in the 3rd over any receiver in the first... save for Blackmon of course.

Use our first on a DT. Still, Poe, Brockers, Cox... one of them will drop!

Joe Adams in the third, Ryan Broyles in the fourth-fifth, or Kris Rainey in sixth.

TheReverend
03-24-2012, 08:56 AM
Joe Adams in the third, Ryan Broyles in the fourth-fifth, or Kris Rainey in sixth.

Rainey should be long gone by the 6th...

Bmore Manning
03-24-2012, 08:59 AM
Rainey should be long gone by the 6th...

That's fine, I just pointed out some slot guys and good round value.. I personally wouldn't reach..

eddie mac
03-24-2012, 09:00 AM
Pat Sims has re-signed with the Bengals

Jeff Saturday's deal in Green Bay is 2 years $7.75m

Broncos apparently are desperate to sign Hanie. Why I dont ****ing know, should've been more desperate to sign a DT of any ****ing note.

TheReverend
03-24-2012, 09:01 AM
That's fine, I just pointed out some slot guys and good round value.. I personally wouldn't reach..

Rainey won't be a slot guy either. He'll prob be a better Sproles though.

SonOfLe-loLang
03-24-2012, 09:08 AM
Rainey won't be a slot guy either. He'll prob be a better Sproles though.

Whens the last time we had a guy that even resembled his skill set? Milburn? Would be nice to have one again.

TheReverend
03-24-2012, 09:14 AM
Whens the last time we had a guy that even resembled his skill set? Milburn? Would be nice to have one again.

I'd love to get our hands on Rainey AND Stewart.

A backfield with Stewart and McGahee running the ball and Moreno and Rainey to do change of pace stuff would be great.

Rainey would also make an excellent return man for us and not only fill the hole of Eddie there, but upgrade it. Throw a 4th at him if he's still there!

Gcver2ver3
03-24-2012, 09:24 AM
Pat Sims has re-signed with the Bengals

Jeff Saturday's deal in Green Bay is 2 years $7.75m

Broncos apparently are desperate to sign Hanie. Why I dont ****ing know, should've been more desperate to sign a DT of any ****ing note.

all jokes aside, i'd rather bring Jake Plummer back than sign Caleb Hanie...

heck, i'd rather bring Briane Griese in than Hanie...

Goobzilla
03-24-2012, 09:52 AM
In the "Better than Hanie" news department, Dennis Dixon is visiting Denver today.

pricejj
03-24-2012, 10:07 AM
Pat Sims has re-signed with the Bengals

Jeff Saturday's deal in Green Bay is 2 years $7.75m



Jeff Saturday took a pay cut to sign with Green Bay? Why didn't the Broncos give him at $8M? Makes no sense.

razorwire77
03-24-2012, 10:19 AM
Honestly, I don't really think it matters if it's Hanie, or Dixon, or (fill in the blank) veteran. If Manning gets hurt this team is going to lose games. I would sign the best clipboard holder you can, and then focus on drafting a QB (preferably with the Tebow 4th rounder) that you can try to groom for a couple of years.

barryr
03-24-2012, 10:27 AM
There were some stating the signing of Manning would help the Broncos get some really good free agents. The Broncos have signed some decent players, but they really needed Manning to get these guys? If the Broncos are intent to use the draft and not free agency so much, then signing Manning won't have the impact in free agency like some believed.

pricejj
03-24-2012, 10:48 AM
For those of you who claim to believe that the Broncos had $40M remaining in cap space, on 3/15 (before free agency), as per Jason Laconfora...I have been claiming all along that was not correct. Here's proof:


Broncos free agency signings since 3/15:
Joe Mays $4M
Wesley Woodyard N/A
Peyton Manning $18M
Mike Adams $2
Andre Caldwell N/A
Tracy Porter $4M
Joel Dreessen $2.83
Jacob Tamme $3M


Assume Andre Caldwell and Woodyard are making $2M each. The total already is $37.83M...plus we are still trying to sign Marcus Thomas, Jason Hunter, Dennis Dixon, we tried to sign Jeff Saturday, we will need another DT, and we have all our draft picks left to sign (about $5M).

The Broncos, so far have spent $120.6M...exactly the true cap...and still could spend the $26M rollover if they want. I would think the Broncos spend another $9M in free agency, then roll the rest over to next year.

Karenin
03-24-2012, 12:01 PM
Yeah let's sign a washed up has been 30+ year old TE. The market has been hot for him you know.

Care to make a wager on who ends up signing for more money, Dallas Clark or whatever the hell his name is that we just signed? Because it's gonna be Dallas Clark.

Smilin Assassin
03-24-2012, 12:05 PM
Care to make a wager on who ends up signing for more money, Dallas Clark or whatever the hell his name is that we just signed? Because it's gonna be Dallas Clark.

The more prudent wager would be for who has more production.

Karenin
03-24-2012, 12:07 PM
I'd be happy to make that wager as well.

Smilin Assassin
03-24-2012, 12:08 PM
Jeff Saturday took a pay cut to sign with Green Bay? Why didn't the Broncos give him at $8M? Makes no sense.


You're assuming (as most are) that he'd rather play w/Peyton & the Broncos.

He considered retirement until interest in him grew. It's possible he views GB as a better bet to play for a championship this yr.

Karenin
03-24-2012, 12:08 PM
For those of you who claim to believe that the Broncos had $40M remaining in cap space, on 3/15 (before free agency), as per Jason Laconfora...I have been claiming all along that was not correct. Here's proof:


Broncos free agency signings since 3/15:
Joe Mays $4M
Wesley Woodyard N/A
Peyton Manning $18M
Mike Adams $2
Andre Caldwell N/A
Tracy Porter $4M
Joel Dreessen $2.83
Jacob Tamme $3M


Assume Andre Caldwell and Woodyard are making $2M each. The total already is $37.83M...plus we are still trying to sign Marcus Thomas, Jason Hunter, Dennis Dixon, we tried to sign Jeff Saturday, we will need another DT, and we have all our draft picks left to sign (about $5M).

The Broncos, so far have spent $120.6M...exactly the true cap...and still could spend the $26M rollover if they want. I would think the Broncos spend another $9M in free agency, then roll the rest over to next year.

Looks like more bargain basement crap for us! Awesome!

jutang
03-24-2012, 12:24 PM
It still befuddles me that Mays got that much money. I like his drive and effort, but he just doesn't have the talent. The amount of missed tackles he had was unacceptable.

The hope that Irving is ready is probably false given the amount of money the Broncos gave Mays.

Tombstone RJ
03-24-2012, 12:30 PM
Honestly, I don't really think it matters if it's Hanie, or Dixon, or (fill in the blank) veteran. If Manning gets hurt this team is going to lose games. I would sign the best clipboard holder you can, and then focus on drafting a QB (preferably with the Tebow 4th rounder) that you can try to groom for a couple of years.

this is true. The Broncos should be investing heavily in defense just in case Manning goes down. If Manning does not play, the back up QB will make little difference. Fox will go run heavy, smash mouth and the only thing that will keep the Broncos in the game will be a bone crushing defense.

Drunken.Broncoholic
03-24-2012, 12:45 PM
this is true. The Broncos should be investing heavily in defense just in case Manning goes down. If Manning does not play, the back up QB will make little difference. Fox will go run heavy, smash mouth and the only thing that will keep the Broncos in the game will be a bone crushing defense.

I don't even want to think about that scenario. All we have to do is look at last years Chicago team. The fact we are trying for their failed back up player? That's unacceptable. They must not have thought much of Brady Quinn. Or Quinn couldn't jump ship fast enough. But I would take Quinn over hanie as a backup anyday.

Tombstone RJ
03-24-2012, 01:08 PM
I don't even want to think about that scenario. All we have to do is look at last years Chicago team. The fact we are trying for their failed back up player? That's unacceptable. They must not have thought much of Brady Quinn. Or Quinn couldn't jump ship fast enough. But I would take Quinn over hanie as a backup anyday.

I guess the Broncos know what Quinn brings to the table and decided to move on. I don't know anything about Hanie, but I thought he played well in the playoff game where cutler went down.

Here's an interesting article on Hanie: http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/Who-is-Caleb-Hanie.html

DENVERDUI55
03-24-2012, 01:30 PM
Care to make a wager on who ends up signing for more money, Dallas Clark or whatever the hell his name is that we just signed? Because it's gonna be Dallas Clark.

Who cares what they sign for that means nothing on who the better player is or upside. Dressen will be the main starter.

eddie mac
03-24-2012, 05:55 PM
Hanie is the first FA signing that I totally hate. I'd have rather kept Quinn and that is ****ing saying something cos I hate him too.