The Shame of the Nation...why can't we do what's right?

[footstepsfrom#27]

http://www.amazon.com/Shame-Nation-Restoration-Apartheid-Schooling/dp/1400052440

This is America's dirtiest little open secret...almost 60 years after the landmark Supreme Court decision Brown v. Board of Education that ordered US schools desegregated, we are now every bit as segregated in our public schools as we were in 1968, if not more so. This is a national disgrace, an ominous omen of the future both in terms of our ability to compete in the global economy in the future, and a MUST READ for anyone who still thinks racism in America is an artifact of the past. We are guilty of closing our eyes to this and make no mistake, we will pay an enormous price for our refusal to do what we were supposed to do all the way back in 1954 but refused to do.

This is one of the most powerful books I've ever read on the state of race in America, so good I literally read the entire 337 pages in one sitting, which took up my whole day yesterday. Kozol is an extremely gifted writer, a wordsmith who has captured the essense of this horrific shame by both impecable research and his own interviews with kids, teachers, school administrators, politicians and parents spanning more than 40 years of working with inner city kids.

If you can read this book and not be moved to tears, you're possibly lacking a heart.

[Rohirrim]

I think it has to do with economics as much as race. Those on the lower end of the economic scale are just getting the shaft much more than everybody else. Massive economic inequity (the worst ever in American history) comes down hardest on the poor.

[spdirty]

What kind of "carrot-and-stick" methods of behavior control do they use on kids that are so egregious?

[Garcia Bronco]

LOL

[mhgaffney]

the charter school movement is a stealth attack on the public school system -- and is part of the shift to a two tiered class society -- similar to what has existed in Britain for centuries.

[Garcia Bronco]

the charter school movement is a stealth attack on the public school system -- and is part of the shift to a two tiered class society -- similar to what has existed in Britain for centuries.

"Black" Communities can make their schools better. They decide not to or expect other people to pay for it or generally expect someone else to do the work.

[That One Guy]

"Black" Communities can make their schools better. They decide not to or expect other people to pay for it or generally expect someone else to do the work.

This.

Segregation is by choice at this point and definitely not the biggest problem plaguing black society. If they start fixing themselves (generally speaking, as a whole), then I'll be interested in their problems.

This isn't the first time Footsteps has made this claim, however, so it's just a matter of a book fitting his agenda.

[footstepsfrom#27]

"Black" Communities can make their schools better. They decide not to or expect other people to pay for it or generally expect someone else to do the work.
That's a load of bull****. 1) they already do exactly that but lack the resources to go very far, and 2) this is not about "making their communities better", which is the argument used by racists to divert the attention from the fact that "separate but equal" has been ruled to NOT provide an equivilent educationaboutt, and 3) he deliberate defiance by this society of what the USSC already ruled on 56 years ago is what this book is about. White society has chosen the same lie to defend this that we defended slavery with, using "states rights" to defend our desire not to obey the law of the land. The simple fact is, there is NO JUSTIFICATION for segregating black school children from white kids, none whatsoever. It's merely the clearest example you could possibly get as to what this society is really all about when it gets right down to it. We have created the conditions we complain so much about...the ultimate hypocrisy.

Public education is the only tax supported service we have that deliberately scales the quality provided based on race and class...police, fire, military, garbage pickup, library services, etc...none of that is rationed on the basis of quality depending on where your zip code is.

We've traveled a long ways from the '50's and we have a very long ways to go.

[footstepsfrom#27]

This.

Segregation is by choice at this point and definitely not the biggest problem plaguing black society. If they start fixing themselves (generally speaking, as a whole), then I'll be interested in their problems.

This isn't the first time Footsteps has made this claim, however, so it's just a matter of a book fitting his agenda.
It's a book review dumbass..."my agenda" is right in front of your ignorant eyes and all around you if you'd open them. Trust me...the only "choice" in segregation is the one made by white society to exclude black kids, not one made by black children or their parents.

You're right...segregation isn't the biggest problem facing black communities, it's only symptomatic of the evil in the hearts of "our" people...that is their biggest problem

I'd love for just one of you numbskulls to actually read this thing but I know that won't happen.

[footstepsfrom#27]

the charter school movement is a stealth attack on the public school system -- and is part of the shift to a two tiered class society -- similar to what has existed in Britain for centuries.
Having spent several years working around them and doing research on them, it's scary...but we agree on this.

The end of the world must be near. :wave:

[Garcia Bronco]

"Black" school children can go to any public school a "white" school child can go to. Hell, the "black" kids in my public school used to tease me for carrying my books and doing my homework. Start there. Quit blaming other people for your own short-comings. I'd give more, but I am already supporting their abortion habit.

[cutthemdown]

If you can read this book and not be moved to tears, you're possibly racist at heart.


fixed it for ya

[cutthemdown]

He went to 60 schools, wow! BFD! The schools in my city are filled with every race, have a super high truancy, and calif spends a ton on them. It's not the color makeup of the kids, its parents who don't do there jobs and a teachers union that makes it impossible to hire the best teachers.

[Spider]

come on ....... seriously even out in the wilds of wyoming white schools are far superior to the res schools , just like rich and inner city schools ......

[Tombstone RJ]

That's a load of bull****. 1) they already do exactly that but lack the resources to go very far, and 2) this is not about "making their communities better", which is the argument used by racists to divert the attention from the fact that "separate but equal" has been ruled to NOT provide an equivilent educationaboutt, and 3) he deliberate defiance by this society of what the USSC already ruled on 56 years ago is what this book is about. White society has chosen the same lie to defend this that we defended slavery with, using "states rights" to defend our desire not to obey the law of the land. The simple fact is, there is NO JUSTIFICATION for segregating black school children from white kids, none whatsoever. It's merely the clearest example you could possibly get as to what this society is really all about when it gets right down to it. We have created the conditions we complain so much about...the ultimate hypocrisy.

Public education is the only tax supported service we have that deliberately scales the quality provided based on race and class...police, fire, military, garbage pickup, library services, etc...none of that is rationed on the basis of quality depending on where your zip code is.

We've traveled a long ways from the '50's and we have a very long ways to go.

Don't jump down my neck for suggesting this, just please consider it: can the break down of the educational system for blacks also be linked to single-parent families?

That is, single moms trying to raise kids with no father?

I've argued for a while now that abortion is a form of genocide in the African-American community and that IF this country (all of us) just promoted the traditional family unit, where the father stays with the mother in a traditional marriage, that many social problems would be effectively eliminated.

I'd like to see some data on the link between the growth of single family homes in the African American community and the link between lousy schools in these communities. I'm guessing there is a very, very direct link my friend...

[El Minion]

Don't jump down my neck for suggesting this, just please consider it: can the break down of the educational system for blacks also be linked to single-parent families?

That is, single moms trying to raise kids with no father?

I've argued for a while now that abortion is a form of genocide in the African-American community and that IF this country (all of us) just promoted the traditional family unit, where the father stays with the mother in a traditional marriage, that many social problems would be effectively eliminated.

I'd like to see some data on the link between the growth of single family homes in the African American community and the link between lousy schools in these communities. I'm guessing there is a very, very direct link my friend...

If those single mothers had abortions, then they wouldn't be single mothers. As mentioned, I think economic social class has a lot do with it but out of wedlock births doesn't help and probably aggravates the problem.

[That One Guy]

Down here in Florida, there's a lot of schools that went from top schools to the worst graded when the housing market turned. There was surely a funding change but to hear everyone down here talk, the major change was the demographic of the schools. When you're having to cater to immigrants and those who aren't as far along, everyone else gets put to the backburner. My son is in the gifted program at his school and tested in the 99th percentile in math. He came home from his assessment test proud that he knew 7x4 was 23. How f'ing stupid do your kids have to be that he gets 7 x 4 = 23 and he's better than 99%? GTFO if you think it's anything but stupid kids and lazy parents. I'll worry about making sure my kid gets an education (I should say my wife, she's more dedicated) and I'll hope these gangbangers in the hood kill off each other. My son goes to school with a lot of minorities and he does fine while they're all apparently stupid... what gives?

[footstepsfrom#27]

I'll make this short and sweet since I've no intention of wasting time debating this with people who haven't even read the book.

Fact: Public school segregation in the US is illegal by order of the Supreme Court.

Fact: "Separate but equal" not only doesn't work, it's also been ruled illegal by the Supreme Court.

Fact: American public schools in all of our major urban areas are as segragated as they were in the 1960's in violation of the law.

Fact: States, cities and school boards have actively resisted desegragation as have white parents in violation of the law of the land.

Fact: The US spends far less educating black and Hispanic children than we do white children.

These aren't opinions, they are stone cold facts. I realize most of you have a vested interest in protecting your position of advantage and find it convenient to ignore the plight of black and Hispanic kids in our inner cities in defense of that, but if you honestly think that in the 21st century we should be continuing to segragate kids by color and class and that refusing to live up to the law makes us good people, not to mention that competing in a far more technologically advanced world with a labor force limping on one leg because we won't solidify education for all citizens, and finally...if you can seriously say that we are living up to the words we supposedly founded this nation on..."that all men are created equal" when we engage in this beavior as we have now for almost 6 decades...then I have no way of opening your minds. You're simply a closed mind and a lost cause.

As the saying goes, you can't fix stupid.

[That One Guy]

I'll make this short and sweet since I've no intention of wasting time debating this with people who haven't even read the book.

Fact: Public school segregation in the US is illegal by order of the Supreme Court.

Fact: "Separate but equal" not only doesn't work, it's also been ruled illegal by the Supreme Court.

Fact: American public schools in all of our major urban areas are as segragated as they were in the 1960's in violation of the law.

Fact: States, cities and school boards have actively resisted desegragation as have white parents in violation of the law of the land.

Fact: The US spends far less educating black and Hispanic children than we do white children.

These aren't opinions, they are stone cold facts. I realize most of you have a vested interest in protecting your position of advantage and find it convenient to ignore the plight of black and Hispanic kids in our inner cities in defense of that, but if you honestly think that in the 21st century we should be continuing to segragate kids by color and class and that refusing to live up to the law makes us good people, not to mention that competing in a far more technologically advanced world with a labor force limping on one leg because we won't solidify education for all citizens, and finally...if you can seriously say that we are living up to the words we supposedly founded this nation on..."that all men are created equal" when we engage in this beavior as we have now for almost 6 decades...then I have no way of opening your minds. You're simply a closed mind and a lost cause.

As the saying goes, you can't fix stupid.

Everyone who ever uttered the words "snitches are bitches" needs a bullet put between their eyes. Start there and tell me about stupid.

I'm not going to feel sorry for a population of society that can't get ANYTHING right. You take the ghetto out of the equation and the statistics look a lot different. Eliminate the ghetto areas and people (either by way of education or lead, I don't really care) and your problems turn. The first people who can make a difference on elimination of the ghetto? I'm not it.

[footstepsfrom#27]

Don't jump down my neck for suggesting this, just please consider it: can the break down of the educational system for blacks also be linked to single-parent families?

That is, single moms trying to raise kids with no father?

I've argued for a while now that abortion is a form of genocide in the African-American community and that IF this country (all of us) just promoted the traditional family unit, where the father stays with the mother in a traditional marriage, that many social problems would be effectively eliminated.

I'd like to see some data on the link between the growth of single family homes in the African American community and the link between lousy schools in these communities. I'm guessing there is a very, very direct link my friend...
It goes without saying that black community stats on single parent homes obviously parallel social problems, and you don't even need to research that to know it. But how exactly do you think we've arrived at this place where we have so many single moms raising kids? For starters, take a look at the historical surrounding context, since it's equally obvious that environment plays an absolutely enormous factor, THE biggest by far.

Black people have been on this contienent for 392 years and this is how their world has looked:

-- 61% of their time here they were legal slaves (1620-1863)
-- 88% of their time here they were brually oppressed (1620-1965)
-- 100% of their time here they've lived under apartheid segragation
--12% of their time here they've had legal protection that has often bee a sham

In other words, for the vast majority of their almost 4 centuries in this land "where all men are created equal"...they've been treated like ****.

No culture in history has rebounded from nearly 4 centuries of slavery and horrific brutality within a single generation, yet that's what most of us who have ancestors that benefitted from the labor we forced on them and the evils done to them...expect them to do.

We are not a benevolent society, not even a humane one, certainly not an honorable one or one given to rectify our past sins. If I gave you a book with 392 pages and the first 343 pages were torn, dirty or missing, covered with blood, piss and **** and the last 47 were missing sentences, paragraphs and had crappy punctuation or the words made no sense...no matter how pretty the cover is, you'd toss it in the trash.

Now ask the single parent question again in that light and you'll understand how I see the answer.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

I'll make this short and sweet since I've no intention of wasting time debating this with people who haven't even read the book.

Fact: Public school segregation in the US is illegal by order of the Supreme Court.

Fact: "Separate but equal" not only doesn't work, it's also been ruled illegal by the Supreme Court.

Fact: American public schools in all of our major urban areas are as segragated as they were in the 1960's in violation of the law.

Fact: States, cities and school boards have actively resisted desegragation as have white parents in violation of the law of the land.

Fact: The US spends far less educating black and Hispanic children than we do white children.

These aren't opinions, they are stone cold facts. I realize most of you have a vested interest in protecting your position of advantage and find it convenient to ignore the plight of black and Hispanic kids in our inner cities in defense of that, but if you honestly think that in the 21st century we should be continuing to segragate kids by color and class and that refusing to live up to the law makes us good people, not to mention that competing in a far more technologically advanced world with a labor force limping on one leg because we won't solidify education for all citizens, and finally...if you can seriously say that we are living up to the words we supposedly founded this nation on..."that all men are created equal" when we engage in this beavior as we have now for almost 6 decades...then I have no way of opening your minds. You're simply a closed mind and a lost cause.

As the saying goes, you can't fix stupid.

Great post. :thumbsup:

Had to know it would make the regular racist rednecks on this board go apoplectic.

[Garcia Bronco]

Great post. :thumbsup:

Had to know it would make the regular racist rednecks on this board go apoplectic.

"Racist Redneck"? lolz

The word "redneck" is racist.

[footstepsfrom#27]

Great post. :thumbsup:

Had to know it would make the regular racist rednecks on this board go apoplectic.
I've been an activist in education for nearly 30 years, about twice as long as I've been involved in the same efforts for racial equality. What I've found consistently during this time is that only a tiny fraction of white parents have any real idea what's going on beyond the surface of what they see in the public schools, nor do they make the effort to find out. I attribute this to the fact that for the most part, their children are not victimized by the destructive system in a way they can see visibly. In other words, as long as Johnny and Susie appear to be making decent progress academically and/or they are able to participate in extra curricular activities, the absurdities of public education, and I'm not talking here about race/class segragation but the deeply embedded systemic crap they cannot see since it's below their radar...these parents are utterly ignorant of what is really going on. This isn't ignorance of inner city schools, but of their OWN schools.

As problematic and head scratching as this is, that level of ignorance rises exponentially when we are talking about their personal experience with black/brown segragated schools in the inner city. I challenge any one of my detractors on this thread to tell me how many visits to these schools they have personally made. I've been in over 30 of them here in the DFW area.

Some idiot critisized Kozol (who is white btw) for only examinging 60 schools...those 60 schools in 11 states only represent the ones he researched in depth for his book, doing so over 5 years, or about 1 a month. That's one school every month where he attended classes, talked to kids, interviewed teachers, examined facilities, spoke with parents, inspected facilities, digested statistics, interacted with administrators and legislators...and I would bet it's 60 schools more than anyone on this thread have visited to do more than glance around and leave. On top of this, Kozol's book is based on FORTY YEARS of personal experience actually working with inner city kids, including 10 year spent as a teacher in the South Bronx, making far less than he could have made had he chosen to work in a suburban environement...in other words, he's written from tens of thousands of hours spent actually in this environment, not looking at it from the outside.

The bottom line here is this; we are a nation of moral hypocrits. We've based our entire society, one we claim is a shining light to the world for freedom, on the idea that we are all created equal, but we've spent nearly our entire time living on this continent deliberately trying to deny that very principle in actual policy, experience and action. That's the very definition of hypocrisy. It's FAR past time for us to repent of our sins, re-examine our moral consciousness and correct the evils we hae visited on these innocent kids. Will we? No. Certainly not on our own. As Kozol noted in his book, it will probably take a new civil rights movement rivaling the confrontational approaches taken in the ML King era to make this happen. Societal realities today make that unlikely, certainly extraordinarily difficult if not impossible.

The US spends enormous amounts of money on incarcerating people who are overwhelmingly and dissproportionately black and brown, not to mention the billons spent on social programs that most on this board describe as useless. We could avoid nearly all of this expense if we simply did only one thing; lived up to the ideals and principles we claim the nation is founded upon and did what we were ordered by our own Supreme Court to do by desegragating schools and providing the same people who we later wish to inprison with a legitimate opportunity at participating in the "American Dream" as we do with our own kids.

Imagine this...a single segragated urban school with 1,000 kids (many inner city schools are 4 or 5 times larger) that has a funding deficit of $1,000 per child compared to how their state funds wealthy suburban white schools (that figure is MUCH larger in the overwhelming number of districts)...will deprive that school of $1 million a year, EVERY year. In other words, a teacher at this school who stays 10 years will work in a rresource starved environment that is $10 million behind over the course of their stay there. Now multiply this by a factor of 5 and you have a more accurate picture of the finances involved her.

In spite of this, we're not even touching the hem of the garment here in describing the real impact. That impact can't be measured by dollars alone because the lives of these kids outside of school, indeed their entire existence, is a product of nearly 4 centuries of organized, state sponsored bigotry and abuse that we've subjected them to withour remorse, without apology and without fear of the ramifications. Those ramifications are now presenting themselvs in the form of our national crime statisitcs, our drain on productivity, our lack of ability to compete with more enlightened and better prepared nations in a culturally diverse global economy. In other words, the chickens are coming home to roost now.

Those who study this issue think it would take hundreds of billions to commit to a truely equitable system...expensive...yes, but less by far though than what we've already spent in Iraq. Imagine if we'd spent even half the money we spent on nation building on our OWN people here, an investment that would actually pay dividents instead of vanishing within days of our exit from the theater of war. We'd build a nation that truely has the potential to finallly live up to that "created equal" thing we claim to believe in.

I live 5 minutes from the most expensive sports edifice on the planet, a billion dollar monument to corporate greed, twisted societal values and missplaced priorities that our society proudly displays every Sunday in the fall on television for all the world to see. Without shame, without even so much as a civic discussion on the issue...this thing was built with roughly $500 million worth of donated public funds (Jerry Jones contributed the other half but raised ticket prices on the fans, so in actuallity the public is footing the bill for most of it) and within the very shadow of this building, kids go to schools that dont have decent text books, computers or facilites that even approach what children just one zip code away have...and this is in the SAME school district.

For those to lazy to read something not Broncos related...at least watch Kozol in this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6u-gIToYLg

[That One Guy]

[Big long post]

One simple question:

Do you think the parents of these children you're fighting for doing everything in their power to rectify the situation?

[footstepsfrom#27]

One simple question:

Do you think the parents of these children you're fighting for doing everything in their power to rectify the situation?
The parents you're speaking of are victims of the exact same apartheid system their children are, meaning that experience has wounded them as grieviously as it is wounding their children. Many are struggling just to keep their heads above water while trying to raise these kids under enormously difficult circumstances, and nearly all are so ill prepared for anything more than basic survival that even if they are doing all they can, it's just not enough to overcome both the inferior education they and their kids have, as well as the economic deprivation they experience.

The real question is not what black parents are doing or not doing, it's why WHITE people with means and the advantages reaped from hogging most of the education pie and segragating their own kids from black children can't seem to get it through their heads that this is WRONG, that it's IMMORAL, and that they are obstructing the potential of this country with their own segragationist attitudes. Racism isn't dead...it's just hiding underground more efffectively than it used to.

I can tell you this...considering the education level provided these parents and the irrepareable damage it's done to them on so many levels, I think they're doing in some cases as much or more as they can and in other cases they've given up. But why is this important to the big picture? Segragation is ILLEGAL under the law...not that this matters to most people who know, but don't give a damn.

The funny thing is...we're undoubtedly paying FAR more to inprison people when we could be producing much better schools and reducing our overall cost in social intervention and incarceration if we just lived up to what we are supposed to do anyway.

Why can't we just do what's right?

[That One Guy]

The parents you're speaking of are victims of the exact same apartheid system their children are, meaning that experience has wounded them as grieviously as it is wounding their children. Many are struggling just to keep their heads above water while trying to raise these kids under enormously difficult circumstances, and nearly all are so ill prepared for anything more than basic survival that even if they are doing all they can, it's just not enough to overcome both the inferior education they and their kids have, as well as the economic deprivation they experience.

The real question is not what black parents are doing or not doing, it's why WHITE people with means and the advantages reaped from hogging most of the education pie and segragating their own kids from black children can't seem to get it through their heads that this is WRONG, that it's IMMORAL, and that they are obstructing the potential of this country with their own segragationist attitudes. Racism isn't dead...it's just hiding underground more efffectively than it used to.

I can tell you this...considering the education level provided these parents and the irrepareable damage it's done to them on so many levels, I think they're doing in some cases as much or more as they can and in other cases they've given up. But why is this important to the big picture? Segragation is ILLEGAL under the law...not that this matters to most people who know, but don't give a damn.

The funny thing is...we're undoubtedly paying FAR more to inprison people when we could be producing much better schools and reducing our overall cost in social intervention and incarceration if we just lived up to what we are supposed to do anyway.

Why can't we just do what's right?

Don't you think a simple question can have a simple answer? This seems like a lot more wrapping and dancing than answering.

So, a simple question:

Do you think the parents of these children you're fighting for are doing everything in their power to rectify the situation?

Now for your simple answer.

[Tombstone RJ]

It goes without saying that black community stats on single parent homes obviously parallel social problems, and you don't even need to research that to know it. But how exactly do you think we've arrived at this place where we have so many single moms raising kids? For starters, take a look at the historical surrounding context, since it's equally obvious that environment plays an absolutely enormous factor, THE biggest by far.

Black people have been on this contienent for 392 years and this is how their world has looked:

-- 61% of their time here they were legal slaves (1620-1863)
-- 88% of their time here they were brually oppressed (1620-1965)
-- 100% of their time here they've lived under apartheid segragation
--12% of their time here they've had legal protection that has often bee a sham

In other words, for the vast majority of their almost 4 centuries in this land "where all men are created equal"...they've been treated like ****.

No culture in history has rebounded from nearly 4 centuries of slavery and horrific brutality within a single generation, yet that's what most of us who have ancestors that benefitted from the labor we forced on them and the evils done to them...expect them to do.

We are not a benevolent society, not even a humane one, certainly not an honorable one or one given to rectify our past sins. If I gave you a book with 392 pages and the first 343 pages were torn, dirty or missing, covered with blood, piss and **** and the last 47 were missing sentences, paragraphs and had crappy punctuation or the words made no sense...no matter how pretty the cover is, you'd toss it in the trash.

Now ask the single parent question again in that light and you'll understand how I see the answer.

ok, I'm not disputing what you said in the original post nor in this one. It looks like you are trying to pick a fight with someone who is just asking a question. That question is simple--does the propensity of single family homes have a direct correlation to the school problem?

Your answer is yes.

My next suggestion would be to quit deminishing marriage between one man and one woman (the African American community has proven to be against things like homosexual marriage) and start giving incentives to the African American community to get married, stay married and raise families with one father and one mother.

I'm suggesting this could very well alleviate much of the problems with the schools. Now, I know what the libby left will say--they will poo-poo this idea and claim I'm a racist because I believe in traditional marriage. They will also claim I hate women because I think abortion is being misused as a contraceptive and is highly abused in our society, I also believe in the rights of the unborn.

So yes, I agree the educational system is failing the African American community, especially when you look at statistics of young AA men going to prison as opposed to college--OBVIOUSLY SOMETHING IS WRONG.

[That One Guy]

ok, I'm not disputing what you said in the original post nor in this one. It looks like you are trying to pick a fight with someone who is just asking a question. That question is simple--does the propensity of single family homes have a direct correlation to the school problem?

Your answer is yes.

My next suggestion would be to quit deminishing marriage between one man and one woman (the African American community has proven to be against things like homosexual marriage) and start giving incentives to the African American community to get married, stay married and raise families with one father and one mother.

I'm suggesting this could very well alleviate much of the problems with the schools. Now, I know what the libby left will say--they will poo-poo this idea and claim I'm a racist because I believe in traditional marriage. They will also claim I hate women because I think abortion is being misused as a contraceptive and is highly abused in our society, I also believe in the rights of the unborn.

So yes, I agree the educational system is failing the African American community, especially when you look at statistics of young AA men going to prison as opposed to college--OBVIOUSLY SOMETHING IS WRONG.

If, as you say and he doesn't deny, the situation is made worse by the tendency to have single parent households... don't they already have the incentive they need?

This goes to my above point. There's things THEY can do to help themselves other than standing in an open field yelling "woe is me" and hoping someone does everything to make the problems go away. You seem to imply that we need to cater to them and give them special benefits to be responsible. I can't disagree with that more as it just undermines the basic social responsibilities that they're currently ignoring and are the culprit of the problems we face today.

[footstepsfrom#27]

Don't you think a simple question can have a simple answer? This seems like a lot more wrapping and dancing than answering.

So, a simple question:

Do you think the parents of these children you're fighting for are doing everything in their power to rectify the situation?

Now for your simple answer.
I think I gave you a simple answer, but you're actually asking the wrong question. The question is not, "Why can't the victims of our racist apartheid policies dig them selves out from the hole we created for them?" The question you ask is another smokescreen meant to divert attention from the real issue, which is, "Why won't American society stop expecting the victims of racism to do what we were supposed to do but haven't?" You might as well ask why the Hollocaust survivors didn't overcome their concentration camps...OK the analogy might seem like a stretch but the principle remains the same.

You're also phrasing this question as if the only appropriate answer would be "No" because obviously if black parents were doing (your words) "everything in their power"...that would require EVERY black parent in America to be functioning at their full 100% initiative. Of course that's a straw man argument, and it doesn't even address the issue we're talking about, which has nothing whatsoever to do with why black parents are failing their kids, but why WE are failing our own nation's founding principle of equality and why we continue to fail not only black children, but our own as well.

Think about it...if we fail to properly educate huge numbers of black and brown children in this country, we cannot help but damage our future, not only from a social perspective, but our economic strength as well. White conservatives want to do away with social entitlement programs and affirmative action, which they claim is unfair. Fine...so do I...once we've eliminated the NEED for these corrective actions in the first place by building a truly fair and equitable education system that provides equal opportunity for future success. Since we are unwilling to do this, we have no right to expect these alternative solutions to be eliminated.

Blame the victim...that's the nature of your question, and as i said, this disccussion is about the book, which is about the continued existence of racist apartheid educational segragation in America, not why the victims of our reckless, ruthless and selfish policies that have existed now for almost 60 years after the USSC ruled they should be eliminated are still in existence soley because we want to hold onto our position of priviledge. Guess what? I don't think WHITE parents are doing everything they could for their kids success either, and they have far more ability to do so than a single mother in the ghetto raising a couple of kids on minimum wage or welfare.

[footstepsfrom#27]

ok, I'm not disputing what you said in the original post nor in this one. It looks like you are trying to pick a fight with someone who is just asking a question. That question is simple--does the propensity of single family homes have a direct correlation to the school problem?

Your answer is yes.
And I believe I already stated that fact was obvious. The point is not that single parent homes are powerless against social ills like poverty and apartheid education, the point is that WE (white society) created the very conditions that have lead to those conditions and we've done so for almost 400 years now on this continent.
My next suggestion would be to quit deminishing marriage between one man and one woman (the African American community has proven to be against things like homosexual marriage) and start giving incentives to the African American community to get married, stay married and raise families with one father and one mother.
You do realize that not only are we perpetuating a breakdown in marriage with our welfare laws that make it easier to get assistance if you're NOT married right? On top of this, as you mentioned at the end of your post, prison issues...1/3 of black men in this county in the prime earning ages from 18-49...a shocking 1/2 of them in big cities...are either incarcerated or being supervised by a criminal "justice" system that is so broken and malignant that it virtualy guarantees the destruction of black families...start with the fact that unless you have money for a good lawyer you're going to be screwed when you go to court, then factor in that crime is a function of poverty and hopelessness....but guess who created that for the black community? We did.
I'm suggesting this could very well alleviate much of the problems with the schools. Now, I know what the libby left will say--they will poo-poo this idea and claim I'm a racist because I believe in traditional marriage. They will also claim I hate women because I think abortion is being misused as a contraceptive and is highly abused in our society, I also believe in the rights of the unborn.
Once again, this is not about trying to make things separate but equal, which is what all these suggestions, while perhaps true and valuable in themselves are about. It's about doing what's RIGHT and LEGAL and MORAL. You say you are in favor of the rights of the unborn? (A question of MORALS...which this is also). So am I...in fact I'm currently housing at my own expense a young 20 year old black woman in our home who is pregnant and unable to find work on her own. Why? Because at age 14 her mother went to prison trying to write bad checks in order to feed her kids and another charge for theft. The disfunctional extended family she came from took her in for a month, then kicked her and her younger sister out on the streets where these girls had to fend off the horrors of being a teenager with no job skills, no car, no help from anyone...I'm pro life, and my wife and I offered her the option of staying with us because she was thinking of abortion. Now she's planning to be an interior designer and go to college. My question...what kind of society allows multitudes of innocent young girls to face prostitution as their only option for survival when we have the resources to prevent it by simply doing what we say we believe in?
So yes, I agree the educational system is failing the African American community, especially when you look at statistics of young AA men going to prison as opposed to college--OBVIOUSLY SOMETHING IS WRONG.
That something is easily fixed. All we have to do is share the education resources of this wealthy nation with all our citizens equally, reguardless of their color or class. Since we won't do so, we can't expect to solve these problems.

[footstepsfrom#27]

If, as you say and he doesn't deny, the situation is made worse by the tendency to have single parent households... don't they already have the incentive they need?

This goes to my above point. There's things THEY can do to help themselves other than standing in an open field yelling "woe is me" and hoping someone does everything to make the problems go away. You seem to imply that we need to cater to them and give them special benefits to be responsible. I can't disagree with that more as it just undermines the basic social responsibilities that they're currently ignoring and are the culprit of the problems we face today.
By "special benefits" do you mean an equal share of the education budget? Equal pay for teachers who work in segragated black and brown schools? Equal facilities? Equal opportunity for college prep courses instead of vocational training? Equal opportunity to socialize with whites who have a history of knowlege and success in our history as opposed to theirs which we destroyed? How is your right to have more of the public tax dollars go to your kids because you live in a middle class district that can afford good schools with the things I mention? How is it legal? It's neither legal or moral, yet you directly state that equality is a "special right". If the situation were reversed, and white kids were having to attend these ****ty schools with underpaid teachers, crappy and dangerous facilities, lack of money for even basic resources...you'd be screaming to high heaven.

Again...apartheid segragation, even if it could be done to provide equal quality...which it can't...is ILLEGAL by order of the Supreme Court, yet we cotinue to ignore that and do this anyway.

We are a selfish people, and arrogant people, and as our history plainly shows, a people unwilling to live up to the ideals we ourselves founded this country on. We designed this system, we perpetuate it, defend it, prop it up and benefit from it, all at the expense of those who are powerless to stop us. We say we believe all men are created equal but that's a lie...we are hypocrits and no amount of rationalization about parental responsibility, self reliance or any of this other BS changes that.

[cutthemdown]

So what you are saying is schools with lots of black kids can't be good schools? That if we make sure there aren't too many black kids, and we mix them with white kids, then it will be better? That sounds like you are saying black kids are the problem? how is that not racist?

[That One Guy]

I think I gave you a simple answer, but you're actually asking the wrong question. The question is not, "Why can't the victims of our racist apartheid policies dig them selves out from the hole we created for them?" The question you ask is another smokescreen meant to divert attention from the real issue, which is, "Why won't American society stop expecting the victims of racism to do what we were supposed to do but haven't?" You might as well ask why the Hollocaust survivors didn't overcome their concentration camps...OK the analogy might seem like a stretch but the principle remains the same.

You're also phrasing this question as if the only appropriate answer would be "No" because obviously if black parents were doing (your words) "everything in their power"...that would require EVERY black parent in America to be functioning at their full 100% initiative. Of course that's a straw man argument, and it doesn't even address the issue we're talking about, which has nothing whatsoever to do with why black parents are failing their kids, but why WE are failing our own nation's founding principle of equality and why we continue to fail not only black children, but our own as well.

Think about it...if we fail to properly educate huge numbers of black and brown children in this country, we cannot help but damage our future, not only from a social perspective, but our economic strength as well. White conservatives want to do away with social entitlement programs and affirmative action, which they claim is unfair. Fine...so do I...once we've eliminated the NEED for these corrective actions in the first place by building a truly fair and equitable education system that provides equal opportunity for future success. Since we are unwilling to do this, we have no right to expect these alternative solutions to be eliminated.

Blame the victim...that's the nature of your question, and as i said, this disccussion is about the book, which is about the continued existence of racist apartheid educational segragation in America, not why the victims of our reckless, ruthless and selfish policies that have existed now for almost 60 years after the USSC ruled they should be eliminated are still in existence soley because we want to hold onto our position of priviledge. Guess what? I don't think WHITE parents are doing everything they could for their kids success either, and they have far more ability to do so than a single mother in the ghetto raising a couple of kids on minimum wage or welfare.

As I was speaking in generalities, I would've understood had you as well.

The problem I have is you keep looking to blame people who aren't directly involved in the situation while being willing to overlook the shortcomings of those directly involved.

Either because you're making shallow points or because I refuse to listen, I just don't see what you're suggesting here. Ghetto folk, in general, aren't as dedicated or concerned with education as suburban folk are. That's an issue of mindset rather than an issue of opportunity. In my opinion, the only way to fix that is to break up the ghetto, reject the attitude and atmosphere, and force them to... for lack of better words, force them to act white. Take away their culture. As long as drugs, sports, and getting knocked up at 15 dominates their culture... I won't be able to accept this idea that anything I'm doing is causing the problems they, as a society, face.

[cutthemdown]

One huge problem is just getting black kids to go to school. They are truant a lot. Not sure how more money can help that problem. That is parenting. But maybe other citites different. Our school here in long beach are all 25% latino 25%black, 15% Asian and the rest white or other. These are just avg and they change depending on what article you real around town.

Like I said Poly has a bunch of minority students and they churn out some smart kids, but also have a huge truancy problem.

Long Beach has its problems over in what i call the Snoop Dog Area lol. But we are racially diverse, have a huge gay population, and seem to have all the schools mixed. Are you sure these all white schools just not that way because they are all white areas? What do you want to do spend millions busing kids? Its proven to be a bad idea. It cheapers and better to go to school in your area.

The goal should be to get inner city areas more productive. You do that by getting the parents off welfare, getting them working etc etc. Then the tax base goes up and the schools have more money.

A good start would be more punishment for parents who dont send kids to school.

[cutthemdown]

The whole street culture of young black kids is a huge problem. Latino also.

[That One Guy]

By "special benefits" do you mean an equal share of the education budget? Equal pay for teachers who work in segragated black and brown schools? Equal facilities? Equal opportunity for college prep courses instead of vocational training? Equal opportunity to socialize with whites who have a history of knowlege and success in our history as opposed to theirs which we destroyed? How is your right to have more of the public tax dollars go to your kids because you live in a middle class district that can afford good schools with the things I mention? How is it legal? It's neither legal or moral, yet you directly state that equality is a "special right". If the situation were reversed, and white kids were having to attend these ****ty schools with underpaid teachers, crappy and dangerous facilities, lack of money for even basic resources...you'd be screaming to high heaven.

Again...apartheid segragation, even if it could be done to provide equal quality...which it can't...is ILLEGAL by order of the Supreme Court, yet we cotinue to ignore that and do this anyway.

We are a selfish people, and arrogant people, and as our history plainly shows, a people unwilling to live up to the ideals we ourselves founded this country on. We designed this system, we perpetuate it, defend it, prop it up and benefit from it, all at the expense of those who are powerless to stop us. We say we believe all men are created equal but that's a lie...we are hypocrits and no amount of rationalization about parental responsibility, self reliance or any of this other BS changes that.

Are you retarded or just refusing to read the posts? His post:
My next suggestion would be to quit deminishing marriage between one man and one woman (the African American community has proven to be against things like homosexual marriage) and start giving incentives to the African American community to get married, stay married and raise families with one father and one mother.

The bolded is what I referred to. He seemed to imply a direct incentive for those things that we accept as social responsibilities in the civilized world.

And as for the rest, because the people can afford to pay more for school in a richer neighborhood, they get access to better things. Since when was this news? Is food cheaper in the ghetto just because they can't afford the things the richer part of town can? If not, why should education be cheaper? If poor neighborhoods spent the same amount on schools that rich neighborhoods do, the financial balance would be achieved. Does this surprise you? Should rich folk be paying more while their tax dollars subsidize someone else's education? That's just silly.

You have kids and you pay for your kids. Just because poor neighborhoods pay less and get less results doesn't change the paradigm that you get what you pay for. Stop getting 20" rims and start contributing more to school taxes and see what happens if funding is the problem.

[That One Guy]

One huge problem is just getting black kids to go to school. They are truant a lot. Not sure how more money can help that problem. That is parenting. But maybe other citites different. Our school here in long beach are all 25% latino 25%black, 15% Asian and the rest white or other. These are just avg and they change depending on what article you real around town.

Like I said Poly has a bunch of minority students and they churn out some smart kids, but also have a huge truancy problem.

Long Beach has its problems over in what i call the Snoop Dog Area lol. But we are racially diverse, have a huge gay population, and seem to have all the schools mixed. Are you sure these all white schools just not that way because they are all white areas? What do you want to do spend millions busing kids? Its proven to be a bad idea. It cheapers and better to go to school in your area.

The goal should be to get inner city areas more productive. You do that by getting the parents off welfare, getting them working etc etc. Then the tax base goes up and the schools have more money.

A good start would be more punishment for parents who dont send kids to school.

Busing should definitely not be the answer. Ever.

[Tombstone RJ]

And I believe I already stated that fact was obvious. The point is not that single parent homes are powerless against social ills like poverty and apartheid education, the point is that WE (white society) created the very conditions that have lead to those conditions and we've done so for almost 400 years now on this continent.

You do realize that not only are we perpetuating a breakdown in marriage with our welfare laws that make it easier to get assistance if you're NOT married right? On top of this, as you mentioned at the end of your post, prison issues...1/3 of black men in this county in the prime earning ages from 18-49...a shocking 1/2 of them in big cities...are either incarcerated or being supervised by a criminal "justice" system that is so broken and malignant that it virtualy guarantees the destruction of black families...start with the fact that unless you have money for a good lawyer you're going to be screwed when you go to court, then factor in that crime is a function of poverty and hopelessness....but guess who created that for the black community? We did.

Once again, this is not about trying to make things separate but equal, which is what all these suggestions, while perhaps true and valuable in themselves are about. It's about doing what's RIGHT and LEGAL and MORAL. You say you are in favor of the rights of the unborn? (A question of MORALS...which this is also). So am I...in fact I'm currently housing at my own expense a young 20 year old black woman in our home who is pregnant and unable to find work on her own. Why? Because at age 14 her mother went to prison trying to write bad checks in order to feed her kids and another charge for theft. The disfunctional extended family she came from took her in for a month, then kicked her and her younger sister out on the streets where these girls had to fend off the horrors of being a teenager with no job skills, no car, no help from anyone...I'm pro life, and my wife and I offered her the option of staying with us because she was thinking of abortion. Now she's planning to be an interior designer and go to college. My question...what kind of society allows multitudes of innocent young girls to face prostitution as their only option for survival when we have the resources to prevent it by simply doing what we say we believe in?

That something is easily fixed. All we have to do is share the education resources of this wealthy nation with all our citizens equally, reguardless of their color or class. Since we won't do so, we can't expect to solve these problems.

I agree with the plight of the African American family in the USA. So what I'm suggesting is that our society stops financially rewarding the single parent system and INSTEAD rewards the two parent families where there is one mother and one father who are married and committed to raising their family together.

I'd be much more willing to give governement assistence to a husband/wife married couple so that they can move out of a bad situation (for example, move away from the inner cities and out to a safer neighborhood in order to raise a family and provide the kids with a good education) much like the white population has been doing.

In other words, empower the "family" with a father and a mother who are married to have the ability to make the choices they need to raise the family in a healthy environment. You can be mad at white people for doing this type of thing (moving out of inner cities, moving away from high crime areas, moving their kids into better schools) but the fact of the matter is that you can't call it racism when it's just people trying to provide a better life for their kids.

I'd much rather give financial aid to an African American family with a married mother and father (and other families of color like Latino families) because I know that just having the dad around will make all the difference in the world for these kids.

JMHO.

[Tombstone RJ]

If, as you say and he doesn't deny, the situation is made worse by the tendency to have single parent households... don't they already have the incentive they need?

This goes to my above point. There's things THEY can do to help themselves other than standing in an open field yelling "woe is me" and hoping someone does everything to make the problems go away. You seem to imply that we need to cater to them and give them special benefits to be responsible. I can't disagree with that more as it just undermines the basic social responsibilities that they're currently ignoring and are the culprit of the problems we face today.

I think you are being overly critical and somewhat overly judgemental of the plight of AA families.

I hate to say this but your post reeks of the Cain and Abel biblical story. That is Cain questions God directly by saying "Abel is NOT my problem, I'm NOT my brother's keeper!"

Wrong.

I am, and you are MY brother's keeper. If your brother is crying out for help, you don't turn a cold shoulder and walk away. You do what is in your power to help your brother.

[That One Guy]

I agree with the plight of the African American family in the USA. So what I'm suggesting is that our society stops financially rewarding the single parent system and INSTEAD rewards the two parent families where there is one mother and one father who are married and committed to raising their family together.

I'd be much more willing to give governement assistence to a husband/wife married couple so that they can move out of a bad situation (for example, move away from the inner cities and out to a safer neighborhood in order to raise a family and provide the kids with a good education) much like the white population has been doing.

In other words, empower the "family" with a father and a mother who are married to have the ability to make the choices they need to raise the family in a healthy environment. You can be mad at white people for doing this type of thing (moving out of inner cities, moving away from high crime areas, moving their kids into better schools) but the fact of the matter is that you can't call it racism when it's just people trying to provide a better life for their kids.

I'd much rather give financial aid to an African American family with a married mother and father (and other families of color like Latino families) because I know that just having the dad around will make all the difference in the world for these kids.

JMHO.

I have a cousin who didn't legally marry for years because her baby's daddy committed suicide in jail and she got state benefits until she remarried. Anytime you define a situation by legal definitions, it'll get exploited. In this case, there's no way to tell if there's a positive family environment or not and to suggest it's always better with the father around is silly.

You seem to be under the impression that the plight of the single parent is due to some missing factor the father isn't bringing. His presence there wouldn't necessarily provide those factors. It, again, comes down to the responsibility aspect. That's what these kids need to be learning from their fathers but the fathers, in many cases, don't have that quality themselves so they bail. If they stayed, they still may not have the desired qualities.

[Tombstone RJ]

I have a cousin who didn't legally marry for years because her baby's daddy committed suicide in jail and she got state benefits until she remarried. Anytime you define a situation by legal definitions, it'll get exploited. In this case, there's no way to tell if there's a positive family environment or not and to suggest it's always better with the father around is silly.

You seem to be under the impression that the plight of the single parent is due to some missing factor the father isn't bringing. His presence there wouldn't necessarily provide those factors. It, again, comes down to the responsibility aspect. That's what these kids need to be learning from their fathers but the fathers, in many cases, don't have that quality themselves so they bail. If they stayed, they still may not have the desired qualities.


I'm saying it's a starting place bro. A STARTING PLACE. And I'm willing to bet you pretty much anything that having a father around will make 95% of these problems a lot less likely to occure.

Will it solve everything--no.

Will it be the first step and possibly the most influential step in correcting the ills of the African American community in the USA, I say yes.

[That One Guy]

I think you are being overly critical and somewhat overly judgemental of the plight of AA families.

I hate to say this but your post reeks of the Cain and Abel biblical story. That is Cain questions God directly by saying "Abel is NOT my problem, I'm NOT my brother's keeper!"

Wrong.

I am, and you are MY brother's keeper. If your brother is crying out for help, you don't turn a cold shoulder and walk away. You do what is in your power to help your brother.

The difference is that I'm always willing to help those who help themselves. Those who will not help themselves, I'll help if it's not too much trouble. I won't sacrifice to help those who won't help themselves, though.

When I refer to black folk in this thread, I'm almost entirely speaking of those of the ghetto culture. Those of the "Carlton" culture don't seem to have issues. If the best reason they have for their failures is "I was raised this way" then I have zero compassion for them.

When it comes right down to the ghetto culture, it's a people I find so abrasive and offensive that I downright don't want to socialize with them. I have zero issue with black people but once the pants start coming down and the vocabulary starts eroding, my interests in them as people declines as well. The society as a whole have become such a plague and parasite that I would not frown in the slightest if the entire culture could be scooped up and pushed into the ocean.

So, no, I don't think I'm being unfair to anyone. If they want to make better, I'm all for helping them. If they want to continue to be destructive to society, I personally would prefer them removed from it. Luckily they help us achieve such ends by their violent nature. The downside is while they're working to eliminate each other, the areas they occupy are basically off limits to those of us with civilization in our blood.

[That One Guy]

I'm saying it's a starting place bro. A STARTING PLACE. And I'm willing to bet you pretty much anything that having a father around will make 95% of these problems a lot less likely to occure.

Will it solve everything--no.

Will it be the first step and possibly the most influential step in correcting the ills of the African American community in the USA, I say yes.

I lived next to a black family just outside Detroit as a kid. The guy wasn't the true baby daddy to all of the kids (at least one of the fathers was dead) but he was around. The reason he was around so much was because he was on house arrest for selling drugs. I have no reason to believe he ceased his drug habits while on house arrest.

He really made the situation better for those kids. Great positive influence. Then you add incentive to be listed as living together and the fraud rate goes off the charts. I say no.

[Tombstone RJ]

I lived next to a black family just outside Detroit as a kid. The guy wasn't the true baby daddy to all of the kids (at least one of the fathers was dead) but he was around. The reason he was around so much was because he was on house arrest for selling drugs. I have no reason to believe he ceased his drug habits while on house arrest.

He really made the situation better for those kids. Great positive influence. Then you add incentive to be listed as living together and the fraud rate goes off the charts. I say no.

So you are taking ONE family in Detroit and projecting over all black men? I'll answer this for you because I think you are pretty smart--no. You aren't saying that.

I'm saying that our society should positively encourage AA families who are at least trying to become productive members of society. That starts with the family unit--one mother and one father who are married.

Will some families abuse this, sure. But let me say this--we have been financially assisting the single parent system for the better part of what, 40 years or so? The results are horrific. Abortion is rampant in the AA community and too many young AA men are incarcerated or breaking the law on some level. This is a formula for destruction.

So how about doing the opposite? Let's reward those who stay married and those families who make it a point to raise their kids to be productive members of society. Especially the inner city AA community. Instead of giving money to single moms, the more kids, the more money, let's give that money to married couples.

[That One Guy]

So you are taking ONE family in Detroit and projecting over all black men? I'll answer this for you because I think you are pretty smart--no. You aren't saying that.

I'm saying that our society should positively encourage AA families who are at least trying to become productive members of society. That starts with the family unit--one mother and one father who are married.

Will some families abuse this, sure. But let me say this--we have been financially assisting the single parent system for the better part of what, 40 years or so? The results are horrific. Abortion is rampant in the AA community and too many young AA men are incarcerated or breaking the law on some level. This is a formula for destruction.

So how about doing the opposite? Let's reward those who stay married and those families who make it a point to raise their kids to be productive members of society. Especially the inner city AA community. Instead of giving money to single moms, the more kids, the more money, let's give that money to married couples.

You're right, I wasn't saying that. I was simply saying I disagree with any law that isn't written so precisely as to prevent fraudulent exploitation.

As for the rest... the only incentive they should need is a better life for their children and their family. If you have to give incentive to do the most instinctive tasks as a parent... it's a pretty sad state of affairs.

If you were though, do you give this bonus to white families that stick together as well? If not, welcome to racism - again. White people resent that you have to cater to black people to get them to be responsible and the wedge continues between the races.

[Tombstone RJ]

You're right, I wasn't saying that. I was simply saying I disagree with any law that isn't written so precisely as to prevent fraudulent exploitation.

As for the rest... the only incentive they should need is a better life for their children and their family. If you have to give incentive to do the most instinctive tasks as a parent... it's a pretty sad state of affairs.

If you were though, do you give this bonus to white families that stick together as well? If not, welcome to racism - again. White people resent that you have to cater to black people to get them to be responsible and the wedge continues between the races.

The white communities in the USA (outside of trailer part trash) are not suffering the way African American families are. I'm saying that something radical needs to be done. I'm saying that this is NOT a race issue. This is a moral and ethical issue that does affect everyone in the USA.

We have a serious problem with AA men going to prison--how much do you think this is costing financially to keep these people incarcerated?? This is the breeding ground for crime. AA young men going to prison for some stupid crime they did as a kid, the state paying to keep this kid in prison, then when he gets out he's a hardened criminal who is even more destructive to our society. If he doesn't get killed, he ends up in prison AGAIN and the state ends up funding his incarceration ad nausium. Also, he knocked up 3 different women while he was out and now all of these women have kids who's father is in jail and they are heading down the same path of destruction.

Listen, we are destroying ouselves and the AA comunity is the primary example.

[That One Guy]

The white communities in the USA (outside of trailer part trash) are not suffering the way African American families are. I'm saying that something radical needs to be done. I'm saying that this is NOT a race issue. This is a moral and ethical issue that does affect everyone in the USA.

We have a serious problem with AA men going to prison--how much do you think this is costing financially to keep these people incarcerated?? This is the breeding ground for crime. AA young men going to prison for some stupid crime they did as a kid, the state paying to keep this kid in prison, then when he gets out he's a hardened criminal who is even more destructive to our society. If he doesn't get killed, he ends up in prison AGAIN and the state ends up funding his incarceration ad nausium. Also, he knocked up 3 different women while he was out and now all of these women have kids who's father is in jail and they are heading down the same path of destruction.

Listen, we are destroying ouselves and the AA comunity is the primary example.

You say this isn't a race issue then say it's isolated to black folk. Uhh

And then you proceed to make a case for increasing use of capital punishment. If they don't learn their lesson and can't be recuperated to exist as good citizens.. might as well knock that problem out with a little buzz. I agree there.

[Tombstone RJ]

You say this isn't a race issue then say it's isolated to black folk. Uhh

And then you proceed to make a case for increasing use of capital punishment. If they don't learn their lesson and can't be recuperated to exist as good citizens.. might as well knock that problem out with a little buzz. I agree there.

I did no such thing.

I said it's a societal issue homey and the cost to incarcerate people is way more costly than it is to give them some financial assistance to stay married and raise children together. Societies problems are compounded by the prison system, there's many layers of cost to the overall society. That's just if you want to make this only about money.

You say it's racial, I say it's common sense. I'd actually have no problem with financial incentives for everyone to stay married and raise their kids in a two parent home. The overal damage to society as a whole is pretty overwhelming when it comes to the single parent family issues and how it affects the quality of life for kids that come from single parent homes (they are less likely to graduate from HS and less likely to get a college degree, etc.).

[That One Guy]

I did no such thing.

I said it's a societal issue homey and the cost to incarcerate people is way more costly than it is to give them some financial assistance to stay married and raise children together. Societies problems are compounded by the prison system, there's many layers of cost to the overall society. That's just if you want to make this only about money.

You say it's racial, I say it's common sense. I'd actually have no problem with financial incentives for everyone to stay married and raise their kids in a two parent home. The overal damage to society as a whole is pretty overwhelming when it comes to the single parent family issues and how it affects the quality of life for kids that come from single parent homes (they are less likely to graduate from HS and less likely to get a college degree, etc.).

On the last part, that was all I asked. It was absent agenda. I just wanted to know what the plan was though I assumed it relied upon a racial boundary for the incentive. If it didn't, my assumption was wrong, and it might, in fact, not be about race. You said otherwise before which made it about race.

And if the prisoners can't be rehab'd and it costs too much to house them, that's a good reason for execution. If they're repeat offenders, are we really to believe they're innocent of all the things they've been charged with? The likelihood of nixing an innocent person is quite low if you just hit repeat offenders. I say you did make a valid argument for capital punishment.

[footstepsfrom#27]

So what you are saying is schools with lots of black kids can't be good schools? That if we make sure there aren't too many black kids, and we mix them with white kids, then it will be better? That sounds like you are saying black kids are the problem? how is that not racist?
First of all, I didn't say that "kids with lots of blackkids can't be good schools. In point of fact, here in South Dallas the minority majority Townview Magnet Center was ranked the #1 public high school in America at least two or three years consecutively and the School of Science & Engineering on that campus has been the#2 ranked high school for AP placement and tops in the world for science. That school is not an inner city ghetto school however, it's a magnet school you have to qualify to get into. You're attempt to characterize my attitude as "black kids are the problem" shows you haven't read the thread, much less a review on the book. However this mixing black with white that you alude to is called...in case this is news to you..."desegragation", and yes it's definitely what is required to make these schools better, and the US Supreme Court agreed in 1954's landmark Brown v. Board of Education ruling...that's the whole point of the thread, so if you're somehow getting that that idea is racist...you have far further to go than you realize.

We did away with separate drinking fountains, lunch counters, spots on the back of the bus and even, miracle of miracles decided PEOPLE can mix black and white in marriage about 40 years ago, yet when it comes to education, which basically defines much of your life opportunities...now that's a big fat NO...a no to the law of the land, and a no to the founding principles we claim to believe it...but why worry? It doesn't impact you.

[footstepsfrom#27]

The problem I have is you keep looking to blame people who aren't directly involved in the situation while being willing to overlook the shortcomings of those directly involved.
The people I blame are absolutely involved. I blame white society in general since we clearly don't care, and more to the point, our government in the form of our legislative bodies, school boards, individual white middle and upper middle class parents who have refused to send their kids to school with black children and even moved out of the areas they lived in (white flight) once black people moved in...the list goes on, it's apartheid and it's the exact same **** we were doing in the 1950's which is why we had the Supreme Court decison to begin with. So where you're getting that I'm laying the blame where it doesn't belong...is a mystery. It clearly belongs exactly where I lay it...at the feet of this majority culture that created this to begin with and continues to defy the rule of law as well as the most basic principle we were supposedly founded on.
Either because you're making shallow points or because I refuse to listen, I just don't see what you're suggesting here. Ghetto folk, in general, aren't as dedicated or concerned with education as suburban folk are. That's an issue of mindset rather than an issue of opportunity.
One of the single most ignorant things I've seen on this board. "Ghetto folk" as you call them, are interested in success for their kids just like you uppity middle class racists are, they just don't have the power to do **** about it. I spend about 90% of my life in and around the black community, starting with my own household, so let me assure you...you're off your rocker if you think black parents don't want good schools for their kids....whether they live in the ghetto or elsewhere...and just so we're clear; it most definitely is an issue of opportunity. Back to the only point worth discussing her...it apartheid segragation and it's both illegal and immoral, yet in your mind, obviously it's perfectly justified.
In my opinion, the only way to fix that is to break up the ghetto, reject the attitude and atmosphere, and force them to... for lack of better words, force them to act white. Take away their culture. As long as drugs, sports, and getting knocked up at 15 dominates their culture... I won't be able to accept this idea that anything I'm doing is causing the problems they, as a society, face.
Guess what...the people who created these problems are white people, ancestors of ours, and of course some are still around. Or didn't you understand the whole 400 years of history thing I aluded to? As for taking away their culture, we've tried that numerous times, starting with their names, their religion, their literatture, music, even their children...we called it our right. I call it EVIL and IMMORAL and if you believe God has forgotten because it's in the past, think again. We will be judged in time for what we did, bank on it...if we aren't already being so judged even now.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Guess what...the people who created these problems are white people, ancestors of ours, and of course some are still around. Or didn't you understand the whole 400 years of history thing I aluded to? As for taking away their culture, we've tried that numerous times, starting with their names, their religion, their literatture, music, even their children...we called it our right. I call it EVIL and IMMORAL and if you believe God has forgotten because it's in the past, think again. We will be judged in time for what we did, bank on it...if we aren't already being so judged even now.

Bingo.

Too bad these words invariably fall on deaf ears where the "might makes right" mindset is prevalent.

The redneck jerkoffs who espouse this mindset ally themselves with tyrants and bullies while blaming the victims because it gives them a false sense of safety and/or power.

[spdirty]

...

Could you please answer my question? Not trying to be a smartass, but I use carrot and stick methods to control my kids' behavior all the time. What kinds of methods to these inner city schools use to control the students behavior that are so horrible?

[cutthemdown]

First of all, I didn't say that "kids with lots of blackkids can't be good schools. In point of fact, here in South Dallas the minority majority Townview Magnet Center was ranked the #1 public high school in America at least two or three years consecutively and the School of Science & Engineering on that campus has been the#2 ranked high school for AP placement and tops in the world for science. That school is not an inner city ghetto school however, it's a magnet school you have to qualify to get into. You're attempt to characterize my attitude as "black kids are the problem" shows you haven't read the thread, much less a review on the book. However this mixing black with white that you alude to is called...in case this is news to you..."desegragation", and yes it's definitely what is required to make these schools better, and the US Supreme Court agreed in 1954's landmark Brown v. Board of Education ruling...that's the whole point of the thread, so if you're somehow getting that that idea is racist...you have far further to go than you realize.

We did away with separate drinking fountains, lunch counters, spots on the back of the bus and even, miracle of miracles decided PEOPLE can mix black and white in marriage about 40 years ago, yet when it comes to education, which basically defines much of your life opportunities...now that's a big fat NO...a no to the law of the land, and a no to the founding principles we claim to believe it...but why worry? It doesn't impact you.


You're wrong. The fact all black schools can be good shows its the schools themselves screwing up, or parents not pushing kids to go to school and study. It has nothing to do with white or black. We don't need to bus kids around striving for racial equality. You need to go into schools that stink, fire the crappy teachers, fix them up if need be etc etc. Wasting money trying to just send black kids to a better school, and then white kids to the crappy school with the hopes that will make things all better is a joke. What you think hey lets make rich people send their kids to the inner city, so they will then say oh lets let our tax dollars get spread more fairly? Hell no they will pull them out and go to home schooling or private school.

This isnt some plan by white people to make sure little johnny from the inner city doesn't go to school with the white kids. The biggest problem with black inner city kids, is the black inner city parents not doing their jobs. Work on the culture of the street life being cool, get them to realize education important, and even a run down school with some good educators can teach kids.

White people are not to blame for this. You make it sound like they are.

[cutthemdown]

my city does a fine job, all the schools are mixed race. Our whole city is no way around it. But complaining that white people leave neighborhoods because the blacks move in is a joke. Its more blacks moving out of where latinos move in in Calif. Does that make them racist towards Latinos? Hell no they left because that gang MS13 aligned with the Mexican mafia and was killing the **** out of them. They even make gangs like the Bloods and Crips edgy etc etc.

So if a white parent says i want to send my kid to a private school because they are bussing in these inner city kids, and i don't like it, that is not racist. Its just someone trying to protect kids. Lets face it inner city black kids will eat suburban white kids for lunch in most cases.

So if they were going to bus is should only be the smartest kids, but i heard they didnt do it that way because it isn't fair.

[That One Guy]

[Yada Yada Yada]

Whatever, man. You've held this opinion for a long time, and, just as I said earlier, just happened to read a book that fit your agenda so you brought up the topic. It's not actually here for discussion so I don't even know why I bother to regurgitate my thoughts again as they really haven't changed.

I will say, though, that desegregation should merely mean everyone is allowed to go to the same schools. If a black person moves to a rich neighborhood, they can do so. Desegregation isn't a matter of requiring diversity or matching some blackness quota. Until someone utters the words, "you're black so you can't go here", you're just making **** up to fuss. I'll take great solace in knowing that as long as I work hard and get a good job, I can flee areas where ghetto and trailer trash dominate. They have the right to be useless wastes of oxygen but I have the right to avoid associating with them and hope for a gangwar that'll wipe out the whole population.

[Garcia Bronco]

I grew up in a ghetto and I can tell you from experience that the biggest obstacle any person faces is themselves. Anything that suggests otherwise is nonsense. Part of the black sub-culture is to reject "white" society and they literally segregate themselves.

[footstepsfrom#27]

Ha ha...just as I thought...57 posts into this thead and not a single person here answered the question posed, which is why can't we just do the right thing? Instead it's the same story it always is when white's are asked this question about segragation. Attempts to divert the discussion to social problems in black society, stuff about marriages, abortions, ignorant nonsense about people pulling themselves up through initiative and hard work as if that's some kind of answer to our own racism, BS rationalization about why separate but equal really isn't so bad...even people who honestly believe because they live in a better neighborhood they deserve better schools than kids who live elsewhere...it's amazing that not one of you racism apologists answered the question, which is simply, "Why are we still segragated 58 years after the Supreme Court ruled that was illegal?"

There is ONE and only ONE answer to this question, BECAUSE WE WISH TO BE. We're segragated because it's what we WANT, separation between our kids and black children...PERIOD. All this hypocritical crap about how we're a society bent on equality, how we don't believe like we used to in the '60's...that's all a load of bull and the proof is in the pudding...people only believe something when they're willing to back up their words with action, and clearly we aren't. So we need to stop all these lies we're still trying to pretend we believe about equality. Let's just call a spade a spade and admit we're a racist nation that has no intention of ever allowing minority kids the same opportunities we want our own kids to have. That would at least be more honest, and thus easier to respect. This thing of saying we believe one thing and then demonstrating something entirely different with our actions needs to be called what it is....racist apartheid practices that have no place in a free society.

[cutthemdown]

Its because answering a questing why cant white people do right thing, implies you feel they are doing something wrong, which most of us don't. How about you answer why are liberals so willing to blame govt and whites for the problems facing black people?

Its a joke of a question and you know it.

[That One Guy]

Ha ha...just as I thought...57 posts into this thead and not a single person here answered the question posed, which is why can't we just do the right thing? Instead it's the same story it always is when white's are asked this question about segragation. Attempts to divert the discussion to social problems in black society, stuff about marriages, abortions, ignorant nonsense about people pulling themselves up through initiative and hard work as if that's some kind of answer to our own racism, BS rationalization about why separate but equal really isn't so bad...even people who honestly believe because they live in a better neighborhood they deserve better schools than kids who live elsewhere...it's amazing that not one of you racism apologists answered the question, which is simply, "Why are we still segragated 58 years after the Supreme Court ruled that was illegal?"

There is ONE and only ONE answer to this question, BECAUSE WE WISH TO BE. We're segragated because it's what we WANT, separation between our kids and black children...PERIOD. All this hypocritical crap about how we're a society bent on equality, how we don't believe like we used to in the '60's...that's all a load of bull and the proof is in the pudding...people only believe something when they're willing to back up their words with action, and clearly we aren't. So we need to stop all these lies we're still trying to pretend we believe about equality. Let's just call a spade a spade and admit we're a racist nation that has no intention of ever allowing minority kids the same opportunities we want our own kids to have. That would at least be more honest, and thus easier to respect. This thing of saying we believe one thing and then demonstrating something entirely different with our actions needs to be called what it is....racist apartheid practices that have no place in a free society.

If you go to the whitest state in the union (Wyoming?) and look at rich vs poor schools, do you expect them to be equally funded and produce evenly educated kids? If yes, then poorer schools can succeed and you're an idiot wanting to run about stupidly. If no, then it doesn't matter about the race despite how much you scream and run about stupidly.

[Dukes]

If you go to the whitest state in the union (Wyoming?) and look at rich vs poor schools, do you expect them to be equally funded and produce evenly educated kids? If yes, then poorer schools can succeed and you're an idiot wanting to run about stupidly. If no, then it doesn't matter about the race despite how much you scream and run about stupidly.

It's like black kids complaining of tests being culturally biased when the asian kids are acing them.

[footstepsfrom#27]

Its because answering a questing why cant white people do right thing, implies you feel they are doing something wrong, which most of us don't. How about you answer why are liberals so willing to blame govt and whites for the problems facing black people?

Its a joke of a question and you know it.
The joke here, is that you are so blinded by the brainwashing you've received from this racist apartheid clinging society that you can't even recognize when something this agregious is wrong. That's what white's thought in the '50's and '60's in Mississippi also, that they were "doing nothing wrong" by segregating black people. I can promise you this, if the shoe was on the other foot and your kids were going to suddenly receive a smaller share of the education budget in your segregated white school districts, you'd be screaming bloody murder. That in fact is exactly why you're so opposed to the idea that equality means going to the same schools...because you know you can't control the lions share of the money pile once black kids attend school with white kids.

Whites like you who feel entitled to maintain the same kind of privileged status you had in the '60's will ALWAYS maintain "we're doing nothing wrong", yet here it is for all to see...we ARE an apartheid education system, and nothing you can say changes that.

[footstepsfrom#27]

It's like black kids complaining of tests being culturally biased when the asian kids are acing them.
I would try to educate you on the differences between a these two radically different social orders and why one is so far behind the other, but I'm 100% sure you'd fail to get it. I'm not surprised though. You've probably been educated by the system, the same one that ensures you're solidly invested in apartheid.

[footstepsfrom#27]

If you go to the whitest state in the union (Wyoming?) and look at rich vs poor schools, do you expect them to be equally funded and produce evenly educated kids? If yes, then poorer schools can succeed and you're an idiot wanting to run about stupidly. If no, then it doesn't matter about the race despite how much you scream and run about stupidly.
Do I think schools in poor districts should be funded equally? Of course they should. Education is a public, tax supported system, and the only one in America where quality depends on your zip code. Not surprisingly, you've managed to miss the entire point. It isn't a question of whether or not poor schools can succeed or not (your point doesn't even make sense) it's a question of whether it's a) legal and b) moral...to segregate public education, which it is not. You obviously don't get what the 1954 Brown v. Board of Education decision was all about. I suggest you do some reading and educate yourself on that, since you obviously haven't.

[footstepsfrom#27]

Whatever, man. You've held this opinion for a long time, and, just as I said earlier, just happened to read a book that fit your agenda so you brought up the topic.
I don't "just happen" to read anything...and "my agenda" is about asking why this nation has violated the law of the land for the last 6 decades stemming from one of the most inportant court cases in history. I mean, that whole "all men are created equal" stuff...that's not such a bad "agenda" to have. It's only the basis for the entire reason we say we exist as a nation.

That's another lie though.

[That One Guy]

Do I think schools in poor districts should be funded equally? Of course they should. Education is a public, tax supported system, and the only one in America where quality depends on your zip code. Not surprisingly, you've managed to miss the entire point. It isn't a question of whether or not poor schools can succeed or not (your point doesn't even make sense) it's a question of whether it's a) legal and b) moral...to segregate public education, which it is not. You obviously don't get what the 1954 Brown v. Board of Education decision was all about. I suggest you do some reading and educate yourself on that, since you obviously haven't.

OK, fine, I'll join your cause.

Find me a school where black kids aren't welcome and we'll go picket. I have things to do tomorrow and Thursday but Friday morning, I'm there. Which one won't allow black kids?

[That One Guy]

I don't "just happen" to read anything...and "my agenda" is about asking why this nation has violated the law of the land for the last 6 decades stemming from one of the most inportant court cases in history. I mean, that whole "all men are created equal" stuff...that's not such a bad "agenda" to have. It's only the basis for the entire reason we say we exist as a nation.

That's another lie though.

I agree, I was being facetious when I said you just happened to read it. Most likely, just like the hardcore radicals of anything, you seek out those who agree with you and then use their ideas as confirmation of your own. You and Gaff are quite similar in this regard.

You're right, though. You reading this book was almost certainly not a chance event.

[Dukes]

Keep up with your "woe is us" campaign. It's working magically.

[Garcia Bronco]

It's like black kids complaining of tests being culturally biased when the asian kids are acing them.

Because the black man as a general term in this country is all about excuses and not about performance unless there is money or pussy attached to it. They operate on a victim mentality and I find the OP amusing about segregation because it's the black man that chooses to segregate themselves.

[Dukes]

Because the black man as a general term in this country is all about excuses and not about performance unless there is money or p***Y attached to it. They operate on a victim mentality and I find the OP amusing about segregation because it's the black man that chooses to segregate themselves.

And he even admitted it.

[footstepsfrom#27]

Could you please answer my question? Not trying to be a smartass, but I use carrot and stick methods to control my kids' behavior all the time. What kinds of methods to these inner city schools use to control the students behavior that are so horrible?
This is also a problem in suburban schools, but the issue is FAR bigger in under performing inner city schools. The Bush initiative ironically dubbed
"No Child Left Behind" stresses constant measurment of academic progress throughout all grade levels and punishment for schools that don't measure up. This sounds good on it's face, but the result is that kids are no longer learning skills, they're simply rote memorizing answers to tests. In some places, notably Texas...it's even led to teachers and administrators deliberatly cheating or even keeping some kids from participating. Kids are literally being bombarded with these idiotic exams to the point where teachers are tied so exclusively to these exams they are unable to even use their teaching skills to do anything beyond stick to the approved lesson plans. This is a wooden, inflexible, ill advised system that values nothing but raw stats and mechanistic ike conformity. If you want to get the full impact of this, you really have to read the book.