PDA

View Full Version : Nate Irving starting in '12?


Goobzilla
02-13-2012, 07:25 AM
Snippet from an article by Andrew Mason on sportingnews.com


Starting middle linebacker Joe Mays is an unrestricted free agent. He might not have started at all in 2011 had there been a normal offseason; the lockout scuttled organized team activities, so third-round pick Nate Irving had no chance to adequately learn the defense. The Broncos like Irving's presence and potential. It would be no surprise if they give him the job and part with Mays.



Read more: http://aol.sportingnews.com/nfl/story/2012-02-12/denver-broncos-offseason-plan-tebows-development-not-the-only-priority?eadid=EL/SICOM&xid=si_nfl#ixzz1mGui1miX

Didn't see a lot from Nate this year, if he could make the big leap from Year 1 to Year 2 that would be great for us.

Dedhed
02-13-2012, 07:58 AM
Didn't see a lot from Nate this year, if he could make the big leap from Year 1 to Year 2 that would be great for us.

I think it's hard to judge where Irving stands. Mike is a very tough position for a rookie to step into in any given year, but with the Lockout he was in a tough position.

I agree completely that it would be huge if he can step in and upgrade that position. The direction the Broncos go in the draft will tell us a lot about how they feel towards Irving.

bronco militia
02-13-2012, 08:19 AM
the lockout scuttled organized team activities, so third-round pick Nate Irving had no chance to adequately learn the defense

LOL

Elway 4 Life
02-13-2012, 08:24 AM
He can't possibly be any worse than Mays was. I look toward to all the young new players gettin a full offseason and some coaching.

maher_tyler
02-13-2012, 08:27 AM
the lockout scuttled organized team activities, so third-round pick Nate Irving had no chance to adequately learn the defense

LOL

Yea, i'm worried Nate is the guy to take over the position. If he can't take over the starting position with Joe Mays in front of him..i don't feel all that confident he will be the answer. Hope i'm wrong though, we could use that pick some where else.

Dedhed
02-13-2012, 08:30 AM
He can't possibly be any worse than Mays was. I look toward to all the young new players gettin a full offseason and some coaching.
It's certainly been understated that the young players on the Broncos, getting a new coaching staff, were at a hugely stunted by the lockout.

Dedhed
02-13-2012, 08:34 AM
If he can't take over the starting position with Joe Mays in front of him..i don't feel all that confident he will be the answer.
I don't think that's a fair statement given the position, the off-season, and Fox's tendency to rely on veterans.

bronco militia
02-13-2012, 08:40 AM
Yea, i'm worried Nate is the guy to take over the position. If he can't take over the starting position with Joe Mays in front of him..i don't feel all that confident he will be the answer. Hope i'm wrong though, we could use that pick some where else.

the broncos leaned on several rookies all season. The statement I quoted was ridiculous.

Here's to the Broncos drafting a few more LB's. The Broncos definitely could use more talent at the position.

Elway 4 Life
02-13-2012, 08:45 AM
the broncos leaned on several rookies all season. The statement I quoted was ridiculous.

Here's to the Broncos drafting a few more LB's. The Broncos definitely could use more talent at the position.

We could definately use an upgrade as well as some depth at the LB position.

schaaf
02-13-2012, 09:40 AM
Adopt A Bronco is gonna do some work this season

Rabb
02-13-2012, 09:42 AM
with Del Rio and Fox and the potential from Irving...I like this

just like Tebow, kid didn't get a full off season and he was also coming off of some injury, wouldn't be shocked to see him do well

we need depth no matter what, but Mays cannot continue to be the guy

gyldenlove
02-13-2012, 09:55 AM
with Del Rio and Fox and the potential from Irving...I like this

just like Tebow, kid didn't get a full off season and he was also coming off of some injury, wouldn't be shocked to see him do well

we need depth no matter what, but Mays cannot continue to be the guy

Both Fox and Del Rio have coached some very good linebackers in Carolina and Jacksonville so hopefully they know what they are doing.

BowlenBall
02-13-2012, 09:56 AM
Welcome to the lying season...

Nate Irving was a complete and utter disappointment in 2011. 16 games played, 4 tackles. Just to put that in context -- placekickers Graham Gano, Dan Carpenter, and Stephen Gostkowski also had 4 tackles on the year.

This is nothing more than a bluff by the front office -- we'll be taking a MLB in the 2nd round.

Shananahan
02-13-2012, 10:00 AM
Remember Trevor Pryce's rookie season?

bronco militia
02-13-2012, 10:03 AM
Remember Trevor Pryce's rookie season?

that roster was loaded and he was contributing by the time they got to the superbowl.

bronco militia
02-13-2012, 10:07 AM
with Del Rio and Fox and the potential from Irving...I like this

just like Tebow, kid didn't get a full off season and he was also coming off of some injury, wouldn't be shocked to see him do well

we need depth no matter what, but Mays cannot continue to be the guy

what injury did he have?

Shananahan
02-13-2012, 10:09 AM
that roster was loaded and he was contributing by the time they got to the superbowl.
Yeah, but remember what a bust he was after that season?

BroncoInferno
02-13-2012, 10:10 AM
Welcome to the lying season...

Nate Irving was a complete and utter disappointment in 2011. 16 games played, 4 tackles. Just to put that in context -- placekickers Graham Gano, Dan Carpenter, and Stephen Gostkowski also had 4 tackles on the year.

This is nothing more than a bluff by the front office -- we'll be taking a MLB in the 2nd round.

There are countless examples of players who did not do much as a rookie who went on to have successful careers. I'm not saying Irving will be an All-Pro or anything, but your post is the very definition of short-sighted.

bronco militia
02-13-2012, 10:12 AM
Yeah, but remember what a bust he was after that season?

I think I drank too much at the end of that season.


I only remember being defending superbowl champs and elway saying he was coming back...;D

gyldenlove
02-13-2012, 10:21 AM
Remember Trevor Pryce's rookie season?

Brandon Marshall, Tim Tebow, Demayrius Thomas, Mario Williams, Chris Long.

Plenty of players in recent history didn't do too much their rookie year and have gone on to bigger and better things.

Bronco Rob
02-13-2012, 10:21 AM
Welcome to the lying season...

Nate Irving was a complete and utter disappointment in 2011. 16 games played, 4 tackles. Just to put that in context -- placekickers Graham Gano, Dan Carpenter, and Stephen Gostkowski also had 4 tackles on the year.

This is nothing more than a bluff by the front office -- we'll be taking a MLB in the 2nd round.




Vontaze Burfict



:thumbs:

TonyR
02-13-2012, 10:28 AM
Plenty of players in recent history didn't do too much their rookie year and have gone on to bigger and better things.

Agree. But Irving didn't do anything.

Dedhed
02-13-2012, 10:28 AM
Vontaze Burfict



:thumbs:

I just talked about Burfict in another thread. Would LOVE to see him in Denver.

BowlenBall
02-13-2012, 10:30 AM
There are countless examples of players who did not do much as a rookie who went on to have successful careers. I'm not saying Irving will be an All-Pro or anything, but your post is the very definition of short-sighted.

Believe me, I hope I'm wrong -- I hope he ends up being a 12-year all-pro and a first-ballot hall of famer.

On the other hand... Matt Willis had 6 tackles this season. How the **** does an ILB who is on the roster for 16 games not beat that? Especially when he's backing up Joe ****ing Mayes?

BroncoInferno
02-13-2012, 10:32 AM
Agree. But Irving didn't do anything.

He had two decent, experienced veterans in front of him in Mays and Haggan, and Fox seems to prefer playing vets. Yes, I know a couple of rookies got to play this season, but those were at positions where we had basically no other options. Other than Dawkins, we had nothing at safety, so Carter and Moore had little competition for playing time. We had nobody legitimate to compete with Franklin at RT.

Rabb
02-13-2012, 10:40 AM
what injury did he have?

It was the car crash, I thought that there was still some lingering things that made teams a little iffy with him but I very well could be talking out of my ass here also. I thought I read something specifically about this with him being here.

Rabb
02-13-2012, 10:41 AM
Both Fox and Del Rio have coached some very good linebackers in Carolina and Jacksonville so hopefully they know what they are doing.

Exactly

:strong:

Smilin Assassin
02-13-2012, 10:46 AM
Both Fox and Del Rio have coached some very good linebackers in Carolina and Jacksonville so hopefully they know what they are doing.

AND!...Bill Parcells had him as the top rated ILB in last year's draft.


fwiw :D?

rugbythug
02-13-2012, 10:50 AM
Believe me, I hope I'm wrong -- I hope he ends up being a 12-year all-pro and a first-ballot hall of famer.

On the other hand... Matt Willis had 6 tackles this season. How the **** does an ILB who is on the roster for 16 games not beat that? Especially when he's backing up Joe ****ing Mayes?

So you think niko was destined for greatness. Has special teams tackles been a good preditor of play in the past?

Beantown Bronco
02-13-2012, 10:53 AM
Justin Tuck had one whole sack after his first two seasons of (non lockout) play. Bust.

RocBronc
02-13-2012, 10:53 AM
The whole Irving debate highlights to me something that I think is going to be a huge positive for the Broncos for next season. That being how much improvement we're going to see across the roster due to the fact that everyone, not just the rookies, will have a chance to go through a full offseason with the coaching staff; learning playbooks and systems that they didn't have a chance to do last season due to the lockout. Everyone is talking about what a positive it will be for Tebow, but I don't think it should be overlooked the benefit it will be for the entirety of our team especially our young players.

BowlenBall
02-13-2012, 11:01 AM
So you think niko was destined for greatness. Has special teams tackles been a good preditor of play in the past?

Let's put it this way -- the last time we drafted an ILB was Spencer Larsen in the 6th round in 2008. 22 tackles, and then we moved him to fullback.

Before that, it was Terry Pierce (also in the 2nd round) in 2003. Terry had 3 tackles in 2003, 5 tackles in 2004, and was out of the league in 2005. Ghosts of Broncos past....

I want Nate Irving to be a success... but you need to face facts, his rookie year was cover-your-face bad.

Kaylore
02-13-2012, 11:07 AM
Let's put it this way -- the last time we drafted an ILB was Spencer Larsen in the 6th round in 2008. 22 tackles, and then we moved him to fullback.

Before that, it was Terry Pierce (also in the 2nd round) in 2003. Terry had 3 tackles in 2003, 5 tackles in 2004, and was out of the league in 2005. Ghosts of Broncos past....

I want Nate Irving to be a success... but you need to face facts, his rookie year was cover-your-face bad.

Not every player needs to be starting their first year. A lot of players, particularly later round picks, don't start their first season and still have successful careers. This is especially true of Fox's teams, who famously favors veterans over rookies, sometimes to a fault.

BowlenBall
02-13-2012, 11:08 AM
Justin Tuck had one whole sack after his first two seasons of (non lockout) play. Bust.

He's also had 31 tackles his rookie season. Irving is on pace to hit that by his third contract....

BroncoBeavis
02-13-2012, 11:15 AM
He's also had 31 tackles his rookie season. Irving is on pace to hit that by his third contract....

Also depends pretty completely on playing time. Hard to rack up tackles if you're not on the field. Also hard to call a rookie a bust if he wasn't getting playing time.

Would be like criticizing Brady Quinn's lack of production this year.

enjolras
02-13-2012, 11:18 AM
I want Nate Irving to be a success... but you need to face facts, his rookie year was cover-your-face bad.

It was a non-year. They have been reporting locally all year that this was essentially a red-shirt year for Irving. They wanted to him to put on some weight and make sure he was fully recovered from the effects of the accident.

He may very well be a bust, but I don't see how you can even begin to measure him after this year. If he had a handful of tackles and actually played meaningful minutes I'd agree. He didn't. He played on special teams and VERY sparingly at actual MLB.

During the preseason he definitely looked lost... we'll know come draft time where the team is at with him. If they look to draft a MLB, that will tell the tale.

BowlenBall
02-13-2012, 11:28 AM
Also depends pretty completely on playing time. Hard to rack up tackles if you're not on the field. Also hard to call a rookie a bust if he wasn't getting playing time.

Would be like criticizing Brady Quinn's lack of production this year.

My overarching point is -- the Broncos need to be looking at drafting an ILB early this year, based on all available data points.

FYI, here's some more data for you: linebackers drafted AFTER Nate Irving in 2011:

3 (68) Kelvin Sheppard - 70 tackles
3 (70) Justin Houston - 56 tackles
3 (72) Martez Wilson - 10 tackles
3 (84) Mason Foster - 84 tackles
3 (91) Akeem Dent - 20 tackles
4 (99) KJ Wright - 65 tackles
4 (109) Colin McCarthy - 68 tackles
4 (116) Casey Matthews - 37 tackles

Beantown Bronco
02-13-2012, 11:35 AM
My overarching point is -- the Broncos need to be looking at drafting an ILB early this year, based on all available data points.


I've seen one. Tackles. And that is a poor "data point".

BowlenBall
02-13-2012, 11:39 AM
I've seen one. Tackles. And that is a poor "data point".

Seems like a better predictor of success than your "data point."

http://www.bostonherald.com/blogs/sports/rap_sheet/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/0_61_parcells_bill11.jpg

enjolras
02-13-2012, 11:40 AM
Seems like a better predictor of success than your "data point."

Both are equally non-sensical.

broncosteven
02-13-2012, 11:41 AM
Put me down for hoping Irving starts so we don't have to spend a high pick on a MLB to upgrade the position.

We do need to add another MLB for depth, I would look at the meanist, hardest playing vet they can find and bring him in for a year or 2.

It is too bad they can't get Mays to add 50-70 lbs and move him to DT he is a DT in a MLB's body.

ColoradoDarin
02-13-2012, 11:41 AM
Seems like a better predictor of success than your "data point."

http://www.bostonherald.com/blogs/sports/rap_sheet/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/0_61_parcells_bill11.jpg

Well, if it's one thing that Bill Parcells teams always lacked, it was good LB play.....



/facepalm

Beantown Bronco
02-13-2012, 11:42 AM
Seems like a better predictor of success than your "data point."

I honestly don't understand this post. What is my data point?

Shananahan
02-13-2012, 11:44 AM
FYI, here's some more data for you: linebackers drafted AFTER Nate Irving in 2011:

3 (68) Kelvin Sheppard - 70 tackles
3 (70) Justin Houston - 56 tackles
3 (72) Martez Wilson - 10 tackles
3 (84) Mason Foster - 84 tackles
3 (91) Akeem Dent - 20 tackles
4 (99) KJ Wright - 65 tackles
4 (109) Colin McCarthy - 68 tackles
4 (116) Casey Matthews - 37 tackles
This might have some value if every player on the list, including Irving, was given the same amount of playing time.

CEH
02-13-2012, 11:45 AM
As has been pointed out earlier, Fox and JDR have success with LBers in the past. If they think Irving deserves a shot to start I like it alot.

BowlenBall
02-13-2012, 11:49 AM
Well, if it's one thing that Bill Parcells teams always lacked, it was good LB play.....



/facepalm

Bill Parcell's last draft, in 2010:

2 (40) LB Koa Misi - 31 tackles in in 2010, 41 tackles in 2011
4 (119) LB A.J. Edds - 0 tackles in 2010, waived in 2011

Just saying....

bronco militia
02-13-2012, 11:52 AM
Well, if it's one thing that Bill Parcells teams always lacked, it was good LB play.....



/facepalm

bill parcells didn't draft that great defense in New York

ColoradoDarin
02-13-2012, 11:56 AM
Bill Parcell's last draft, in 2010:

2 (40) LB Koa Misi - 31 tackles in in 2010, 41 tackles in 2011
4 (119) LB A.J. Edds - 0 tackles in 2010, waived in 2011

Just saying....

You clearly have no idea of the concept of small sample size.

Heyneck
02-13-2012, 12:02 PM
The whole Irving debate highlights to me something that I think is going to be a huge positive for the Broncos for next season. That being how much improvement we're going to see across the roster due to the fact that everyone, not just the rookies, will have a chance to go through a full offseason with the coaching staff; learning playbooks and systems that they didn't have a chance to do last season due to the lockout. Everyone is talking about what a positive it will be for Tebow, but I don't think it should be overlooked the benefit it will be for the entirety of our team especially our young players.

QFT

BowlenBall
02-13-2012, 12:15 PM
You clearly have no idea of the concept of small sample size.

OK, then let me add one to the sample:

Dallas Cowboys, 2006
1 (18): Bobby Carpenter, LB, Ohio State

If people are going to appeal to authority (Parcells) instead of hard data, then you better be prepared to explain his whiffs on linebackers over the last half-decade.

Honestly people -- I'm not anti-Irving, I just find it hard to believe that ILB/MLB isn't a priority in this draft....

bronco militia
02-13-2012, 12:17 PM
yeah....Parcells coached some great players over the years, but his GM skills were vastly overated.

BroncoInferno
02-13-2012, 12:20 PM
Honestly people -- I'm not anti-Irving, I just find it hard to believe that ILB/MLB isn't a priority in this draft....

You don't invest a 3rd round pick into a player in one draft, and then turn around draft a guy to replace him in the following draft. Anyone we draft will be just as unknown as Irving. If they aren't sold on him, the saner approach is to sign a veteran to compete with him (i.e. Dan Conner). If that approach does not work next season, then you start to look at alternatives. But you don't sink draft costs into another unknown when it isn't clear that Irving is a sunk cost.

oubronco
02-13-2012, 12:24 PM
If they can get an impact ILB then go for it as it's a must need and a quality backup would be nice to have as well

Shananahan
02-13-2012, 12:31 PM
You don't invest a 3rd round pick into a player in one draft, and then turn around draft a guy to replace him in the following draft. Anyone we draft will be just as unknown as Irving. If they aren't sold on him, the saner approach is to sign a veteran to compete with him (i.e. Dan Conner). If that approach does not work next season, then you start to look at alternatives. But you don't sink draft costs into another unknown when it isn't clear that Irving is a sunk cost.
They're going to draft a MLB if Mays isn't coming back, regardless of whether that person is to replace Irving or compete with him. Hell, even if they sign a veteran they should keep their eyes open in the draft. Denver's defense needs quality depth everywhere.

BowlenBall
02-13-2012, 12:32 PM
You don't invest a 3rd round pick into a player in one draft, and then turn around draft a guy to replace him in the following draft. Anyone we draft will be just as unknown as Irving. If they aren't sold on him, the saner approach is to sign a veteran to compete with him (i.e. Dan Conner). If that approach does not work next season, then you start to look at alternatives. But you don't sink draft costs into another unknown when it isn't clear that Irving is a sunk cost.

By all accounts, Nate Irving was a 5th-round talent coming into the 2011 draft. After one year, that assessment seems accurate. The definition of sunk costs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunk_cost) is that you know when to hold 'em, and know when to fold 'em. Besides, even if Irving pans out, we're thin at ILB, so why not bolster the position with another high draft pick in 2012?

BroncoInferno
02-13-2012, 12:33 PM
They're going to draft a MLB if Mays isn't coming back, regardless of whether that person is to replace Irving or compete with him. Hell, even if they sign a veteran they should keep their eyes open in the draft. Denver's defense needs quality depth everywhere.

If they like Irving and plan to give him a chance, they will not draft a MLB in the top 3 rounds, period. If they do, then they've decided he can't play and is a sunk cost. If the reports that this year was basically a "redshirt season" are true, then they will most likely sign a veteran like Conner to compete with Irving and maybe draft someone late.

BroncoBen
02-13-2012, 12:34 PM
I give Nate Irving a incomplete grade for last season, if people are going to give Tebow a 'pass' because he didn't have a offseason, same goes for Irving. In fact maybe more so for Irving since this was his Rookie year.

BowlenBall
02-13-2012, 12:34 PM
I give Nate Irving a incomplete grade for last season, if people are going to give Tebow a 'pass' because he didn't have a offseason, same goes for Irving. In fact maybe more so for Irving since this was his Rookie year.

Your argument says "no", but your avatar says "yes".....

Beantown Bronco
02-13-2012, 12:37 PM
By all accounts, Nate Irving was a 5th-round talent coming into the 2011 draft.

By all accounts? The entire Broncos draft room staff disagrees, obviously.

BroncoInferno
02-13-2012, 12:38 PM
By all accounts, Nate Irving was a 5th-rounder coming into the 2011 draft.

Wrong. One example to the contrary has already been given in this thread. So, he wasn't a 5th rounder "by all accounts."

After one year, that assessment seems accurate. The definition of sunk costs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunk_cost) is that you know when to hold 'em, and know when to fold 'em.

You are making the assumption that it's time to "fold'em" simply because he did not get much PT this season. It's not at all clear that the front office views your interpretation as the correct one.

Besides, even if Irving pans out, we're thin at ILB, so why not bolster the position with another high draft pick in 2012?

A quality MLB stays on the field most of the time, so using a high draft pick for his backup is a luxury pick that we can't afford at this time. We need to address other needs in this draft and give last years picks a chance to develop.

Ziggy
02-13-2012, 12:38 PM
OK, then let me add one to the sample:

Dallas Cowboys, 2006
1 (18): Bobby Carpenter, LB, Ohio State

If people are going to appeal to authority (Parcells) instead of hard data, then you better be prepared to explain his whiffs on linebackers over the last half-decade.


My turn:

Dallas Cowboys, 2005
1 (11): Demarcus Ware, LB, Troy

......and yes, he was a Bill Parcells draft pick.

bronco militia
02-13-2012, 12:44 PM
My turn:

Dallas Cowboys, 2005
1 (11): Demarcus Ware, LB, Troy

......and yes, he was a Bill Parcells draft pick.

no, he was Jerry Jone's draft pick

BowlenBall
02-13-2012, 12:52 PM
A quality MLB stays on the field most of the time

Are you arguing my point or your point? :wiggle:

Ziggy
02-13-2012, 12:54 PM
(http://espn.go.com/dallas/nfl/story/_/id/7435562/five-years-later-many-dallas-cowboys-best-players-bill-parcells-guys)Todd Archer of ESPN Dallas recently interviewed Parcells (http://espn.go.com/dallas/nfl/story/_/id/7435562/five-years-later-many-dallas-cowboys-best-players-bill-parcells-guys) about his tenure in Dallas, but something Archer pointed out really stuck with me. A vast majority of the Cowboys’ current core players were either drafted or signed by Parcells.
During his four-year tenure from 2003 through 2006, Parcells drafted the following Cowboys: linebackers DeMarcus Ware and Bradie James, defensive tackle Jay Ratliff, tight end Jason Witten, cornerback Terence Newman, defensive ends Jason Hatcher and Marcus Spears, long snapper L.P. LaDouceur and punter Mat McBriar. Parcells also signed receiver Miles Austin and quarterback Tony Romo as undrafted free agents.
James, Newman and Spears are all less significant parts of the team now, but they were each major defensive contributors at certain points in their careers. As for the other eight players, Dallas wouldn’t have been anywhere near .500 this season without them.
During the Parcells era, Cowboys owner Jerry Jones backed off and allowed his coach to draft talented players. The result was the franchise’s first two playoff appearances since 1999. The Cowboys hadn’t experienced anything like Parcells since Jimmy Johnson solidified the “America’s Team” label.
Since Parcells left, Jones has been in charge of drafting players. The Cowboys have made the playoffs twice since Parcells left, primarily due to the play of the personnel he acquired during his four years in Dallas.
http://www.googleadservices.com/pagead/conversion/1047459996/?label=319QCJrUpAEQnPG78wM&guid=ON&script=0http://px.owneriq.net/ep?sid%5B%5D=166927633&sid%5B%5D=170704068&sid%5B%5D=170704073&sid%5B%5D=166194978&sid%5B%5D=301177783&rid%5B%5D=1348133&rid%5B%5D=1330461&rid%5B%5D=1600287&pt=rntspt (http://espn.go.com/dallas/nfl/story/_/id/7435562/five-years-later-many-dallas-cowboys-best-players-bill-parcells-guys)

http://www.rantsports.com/dallas-cowboys/2012/01/09/dallas-cowboys-talent-evaluation-poor-since-bill-parcells-left/

BowlenBall
02-13-2012, 12:58 PM
[/URL]

[URL]http://www.rantsports.com/dallas-cowboys/2012/01/09/dallas-cowboys-talent-evaluation-poor-since-bill-parcells-left/ (http://espn.go.com/dallas/nfl/story/_/id/7435562/five-years-later-many-dallas-cowboys-best-players-bill-parcells-guys)

I guess my only response to this is:

2006 1 (18): Bobby Carpenter

RunSilentRunDeep
02-13-2012, 01:07 PM
Lawrence Taylor didn't have a sack in his rookie season. Kind of surprising people would give up on Irving in a lockout year when he missed a lot of training camp with an ankle injury -- but I'll group those people with crowd hoping Denver signs Aubrayo Franklin or some other washed up defensive tackle for $30M.

rugbythug
02-13-2012, 01:24 PM
I guess my only response to this is:

2006 1 (18): Bobby Carpenter

Who is a good talent evaluator?

You name one I will find a whiff.

That said irving can't be a bust in his 2nd season. No one can.

McDman
02-13-2012, 01:32 PM
Welcome to the lying season...

Nate Irving was a complete and utter disappointment in 2011. 16 games played, 4 tackles. Just to put that in context -- placekickers Graham Gano, Dan Carpenter, and Stephen Gostkowski also had 4 tackles on the year.

This is nothing more than a bluff by the front office -- we'll be taking a MLB in the 2nd round.

Yeah, he was so bad. I mean why can't all rookies be like Von Miller?

To call a third or fourth rounder who isn't even expected to start right away and had no training camp a disappointment is total idiocy.

Getting away from the moronic statement. I have read that in Fox's system the MIKE is a very difficult position to handle and his MIKEs usually take a little longer to develop.

Irving may never start a game, no one knows, but to call him a failure or disappointment right now is absurd.

BroncoBeavis
02-13-2012, 01:48 PM
My overarching point is -- the Broncos need to be looking at drafting an ILB early this year, based on all available data points.

FYI, here's some more data for you: linebackers drafted AFTER Nate Irving in 2011:

3 (68) Kelvin Sheppard - 70 tackles
3 (70) Justin Houston - 56 tackles
3 (72) Martez Wilson - 10 tackles
3 (84) Mason Foster - 84 tackles
3 (91) Akeem Dent - 20 tackles
4 (99) KJ Wright - 65 tackles
4 (109) Colin McCarthy - 68 tackles
4 (116) Casey Matthews - 37 tackles

Not opposed to taking a MLB if the right guy is there. But there's a good chance even that guy wouldn't play much his first year. Some teams might choose to play a rookie @ MLB, depending on their situation. But many other teams might have a vet they'd rather play until the kid gets up to speed. It's a pretty key position in most defenses.

Blaming the rookie for the team making that decision doesn't make much sense.

Drek
02-13-2012, 02:38 PM
My overarching point is -- the Broncos need to be looking at drafting an ILB early this year, based on all available data points.


And by all data points you mean "tackles".

Joe Mays had 75 tackles this season. Does that mean he's worth hanging onto? What a vacuous stat.

The Broncos don't the resources or time to slowly address every need with early draft picks. By the time we get 1st or 2nd round contributors out of the draft for our needs at DT, #2 CB, MLB, SS/FS (depending on where you play Carter), and potentially LG (if you like Beadles or not), C (depends how you view Walton), and RB (McGahee can't have much tread on those tires left). This is all before we talk about a legit KR/PR threat or what way the coin toss lands on Tebow.

The Broncos need to find a way to minimize risk while maximizing long term reward. I emphasize long term there because this is a relatively young core we've assembled and it needs to be the focus of our player acquisition.

If you want to fix MLB you don't do it in the draft unless there is simply no better option at DT or CB available. You can't sign a good young DT or CB in the FA market, they never get there. But this year four mid-20's solid starting MLBs are up for free agency and at least two of them are probably going to hit the open market. They are Curtis Lofton, D'Qwell Jackson, David Hawthorne, and Dan Connor. You add any one of those four, plug him in as the starter, and tell Irving to take the job away from either that guy or DJ if he wants to see the field.

Beantown Bronco
02-13-2012, 02:55 PM
You can't sign a good young DT or CB in the FA market, they never get there.

Except, of course, last year, when there were like 5 or 6 top shelf DTs available for the taking and we just sat there with our d**cks in our hands.

cmhargrove
02-13-2012, 03:51 PM
Give the kid a full offseason. We can go back and forth about different players and their stats all we want, but Nate Irving will just be Nate Irving. If he needs to be replaced, I'm sure our defensive minded head coach will do just that.

I just cant believe anyone around here would be so quick to give up on him. If you go back and watch his college film, he was incredibly aggressive and instinctive, and a good tackler. I would have to believe that a good offseason program will have him acting with more aggressive instincts again.

RunSilentRunDeep
02-13-2012, 03:57 PM
Except, of course, last year, when there were like 5 or 6 top shelf DTs available for the taking and we just sat there with our d****s in our hands.

With the exception of Brandon Mebane, who I agree was worth pursuing, please list the other five "top-shelf" defensive tackles.

Drek
02-13-2012, 04:08 PM
With the exception of Brandon Mebane, who I agree was worth pursuing, please list the other five "top-shelf" defensive tackles.

There weren't 5 or 6, but Mebane, Cullen Jenkins, and Barry Cofield all changed teams last year. Mebane and Cofield in particular would have been great additions as players familiar with a 4-3 front and in their mid-20's so able to contribute for a good 4-5 more years before any age related decline would come.

It was a unique off-season. Now the best options are guys like Red Bryant who wants to stay in Seattle where he was converted to DE and then guys like Jason Jones (280 pound DT who is a pass rush specialist) and Pat Sims (big DT who can't get after the passer, probably going to find a job somewhere as a 3-4 nose).

If we had signed Mebane or Cofield last year instead of signing a broke down DT on the wrong side of 30 for only a little less AAV we could have still paired him with Bunkley and we'd be looking far better going into this off-season.

Baba Booey
02-13-2012, 04:24 PM
Definitely excited to see what Irving can do with a full offseason and Del Rio as the DC.

The coaching staff and front office seem to think very highly of him.

boppool
02-13-2012, 04:35 PM
Fellow rook Von Miller didn't have much trouble learning the defense. I still think he can be good. Just not at the start of the season.

Sign a solid, if not flash, veteran for a cheap price, in case Irving isn't ready.

cmhargrove
02-13-2012, 04:46 PM
Once again, Nate has his flaws, but when he is playing "instinctually," and understands his role, he has plenty good skills. We'll see if he mentally "gets it" this offseason. This video shows more of his ability when focusing on the run game (oibviously that's the main strength of GA Tech).

<object width="640" height="360"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/WKArcBAlXZY?version=3&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/WKArcBAlXZY?version=3&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="640" height="360" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true"></embed></object>

RunSilentRunDeep
02-13-2012, 04:50 PM
There weren't 5 or 6, but Mebane, Cullen Jenkins, and Barry Cofield all changed teams last year. Mebane and Cofield in particular would have been great additions as players familiar with a 4-3 front and in their mid-20's so able to contribute for a good 4-5 more years before any age related decline would come.

It was a unique off-season. Now the best options are guys like Red Bryant who wants to stay in Seattle where he was converted to DE and then guys like Jason Jones (280 pound DT who is a pass rush specialist) and Pat Sims (big DT who can't get after the passer, probably going to find a job somewhere as a 3-4 nose).

If we had signed Mebane or Cofield last year instead of signing a broke down DT on the wrong side of 30 for only a little less AAV we could have still paired him with Bunkley and we'd be looking far better going into this off-season.

I agree not trying to land Mebane was a major miss, especially since he only got $9M guaranteed for the first two years. Cofield, however, wasn't worth it at $12.5M guaranteed considering he's not elite and has way too long an injury history.

I wasn't a fan of the Warren signing, but $2.5 upfront and $4M for the lost year is a lot different than Mebane and Cofield money.

Too many people here were rooting for stupid money to be thrown at has-beens like Aubrayo Franklin.

Drek
02-13-2012, 05:25 PM
I agree not trying to land Mebane was a major miss, especially since he only got $9M guaranteed for the first two years. Cofield, however, wasn't worth it at $12.5M guaranteed considering he's not elite and has way too long an injury history.

I wasn't a fan of the Warren signing, but $2.5 upfront and $4M for the lost year is a lot different than Mebane and Cofield money.

Too many people here were rooting for stupid money to be thrown at has-beens like Aubrayo Franklin.

No one wanted to give Aubrayo Franklin stupid money. They were just asking why we weren't there ready to sign him when the bottom fell out of the market for him.

As for Warren v. Mebane, Warren's deal payed him an average annual value of $4M, guaranteeing the first half of that with $2.5M given as a signing bonus. Mebane returned to Seattle on a deal with an average annual value of $5M and a guarantee of about $9M. We kicked the tires but were unwilling to beat it, by all accounts putting up a pretty "low ball" offer.

Then when we miss out on the 26 year old with a sterling medical record we then turn around and give 80% of the AAV to a 31 year old who hasn't been on a football field in over a year. That was ****ed up.

Also, Cofield got a pretty solid deal but it wasn't worlds more than Mebane or Warren. When he signed it everyone assumed it was quite reasonable, not the biggest DT contract of the off-season.

The first big strike against this FO was not committing seriously to bringing Mebane over when he was available. They have something of a chance to make right on that this off-season by targeting young depth contributors/short term starters who won't cost an arm and a leg to get this off-season. Guys like Dan Connor, Tom Zbikowksi, Jason Jones, etc. have done well when allowed on the field and likely would take very reasonable money for the chance to earn a full time starting job. All of them have plenty of good football left in them too.

broncos-rock
02-13-2012, 06:06 PM
Fellow rook Von Miller didn't have much trouble learning the defense. I still think he can be good. Just not at the start of the season.

Sign a solid, if not flash, veteran for a cheap price, in case Irving isn't ready.

I agree but Von definitely had growing pains. I believe there was a few games where he didn't start but came off the bench.

PRBronco
02-13-2012, 07:23 PM
Lawrence Taylor didn't have a sack in his rookie season. Kind of surprising people would give up on Irving in a lockout year when he missed a lot of training camp with an ankle injury -- but I'll group those people with crowd hoping Denver signs Aubrayo Franklin or some other washed up defensive tackle for $30M.

Side note: LT had 9.5 sacks as a rookie, but the NFL didn't keep of sacks until 1982 :)

BowlenBall
02-13-2012, 07:57 PM
And by all data points you mean "tackles".

Joe Mays had 75 tackles this season. Does that mean he's worth hanging onto? What a vacuous stat.

The Broncos don't the resources or time to slowly address every need with early draft picks. By the time we get 1st or 2nd round contributors out of the draft for our needs at DT, #2 CB, MLB, SS/FS (depending on where you play Carter), and potentially LG (if you like Beadles or not), C (depends how you view Walton), and RB (McGahee can't have much tread on those tires left). This is all before we talk about a legit KR/PR threat or what way the coin toss lands on Tebow.

The Broncos need to find a way to minimize risk while maximizing long term reward. I emphasize long term there because this is a relatively young core we've assembled and it needs to be the focus of our player acquisition.

If you want to fix MLB you don't do it in the draft unless there is simply no better option at DT or CB available. You can't sign a good young DT or CB in the FA market, they never get there. But this year four mid-20's solid starting MLBs are up for free agency and at least two of them are probably going to hit the open market. They are Curtis Lofton, D'Qwell Jackson, David Hawthorne, and Dan Connor. You add any one of those four, plug him in as the starter, and tell Irving to take the job away from either that guy or DJ if he wants to see the field.

No, I have plenty of other Nate Irving data points for you:

Preseason
Games active: 4
solo tackles: 2
assisted tackles: zero
tackles for loss: zero
interceptions: zero
sacks: zero
safeties: zero
passes defensed: zero
qb hurries: zero
forced fumbles: zero
fumbles recovered: zero

Regular Season
Games active: 16
solo tackles: 3
assisted tackles: 1
tackles for loss: zero
interceptions: zero
sacks: zero
safeties: zero
passes defensed: zero
qb hurries: zero
forced fumbles: zero
fumbles recovered: zero

Post-season
games active: 2
tackles: 1
assisted tackles: zero
tackles for loss: zero
interceptions zero
sacks: zero
safeties: zero
passes defensed: zero
qb hurries: zero
forced fumbles: zero
fumbles recovered: zero

I'm not saying "get rid of Nate Irving" or "he's never going to be a good player in the league", I'm just saying that if that's all he could do while backing up Joe Freaking Mays for 22 freaking games, then we should probably be looking at this position high in the draft.

And... I miss Al Wilson.

Mogulseeker
02-13-2012, 08:36 PM
You clearly have no idea of the concept of small sample size.

I read this book for a political science class I took in college. Very relevant here:

http://images.betterworldbooks.com/141/Statistics-for-People-Who-Think-They-Hate-Statistics-Salkind-Neil-J-9781412971027.jpg

I think it is overlooked that EFX essentially wanted to give Irving the year to fully recover and learn the system before throwing him under the fire.

Also, the sample size is extremely small. It's hard to judge a player who hasn't played.

Plus I like the guy.

Mogulseeker
02-13-2012, 08:38 PM
Once again, Nate has his flaws, but when he is playing "instinctually," and understands his role, he has plenty good skills. We'll see if he mentally "gets it" this offseason. This video shows more of his ability when focusing on the run game (oibviously that's the main strength of GA Tech).

<object width="640" height="360"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/WKArcBAlXZY?version=3&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/WKArcBAlXZY?version=3&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="640" height="360" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true"></embed></object>

Pretty good pursuit for his size.

schaaf
02-13-2012, 08:39 PM
No, I have plenty of other Nate Irving data points for you:

Preseason
Games active: 4
solo tackles: 2
assisted tackles: zero
tackles for loss: zero
interceptions: zero
sacks: zero
safeties: zero
passes defensed: zero
qb hurries: zero
forced fumbles: zero
fumbles recovered: zero

Regular Season
Games active: 16
solo tackles: 3
assisted tackles: 1
tackles for loss: zero
interceptions: zero
sacks: zero
safeties: zero
passes defensed: zero
qb hurries: zero
forced fumbles: zero
fumbles recovered: zero

Post-season
games active: 2
tackles: 1
assisted tackles: zero
tackles for loss: zero
interceptions zero
sacks: zero
safeties: zero
passes defensed: zero
qb hurries: zero
forced fumbles: zero
fumbles recovered: zero

I'm not saying "get rid of Nate Irving" or "he's never going to be a good player in the league", I'm just saying that if that's all he could do while backing up Joe Freaking Mays for 22 freaking games, then we should probably be looking at this position high in the draft.

And... I miss Al Wilson.

Not to nitpick but he did have a forced fumble, go watch the Miami onside kick again

Tombstone RJ
02-13-2012, 09:14 PM
I only saw Irving on some special teams plays and he didn't really stand out in those either, not like Larsen a few years ago when you'd see Larsen just destroy the punt return guy.

Yah, color me a little worried that Irving didn't contribute much, if at all, this year. But I'd rather the Broncos not draft another ILBer unless an absolute steal drops in their lap. I'd rather they pursue a MLBer via FA. The Broncos have the friggen money, they might as well spend it and a solid MLBer.

PRBronco
02-13-2012, 09:32 PM
I only saw Irving on some special teams plays and he didn't really stand out in those either, not like Larsen a few years ago when you'd see Larsen just destroy the punt return guy.

Yah, color me a little worried that Irving didn't contribute much, if at all, this year. But I'd rather the Broncos not draft another ILBer unless an absolute steal drops in their lap. I'd rather they pursue a MLBer via FA. The Broncos have the friggen money, they might as well spend it and a solid MLBer.

The only time I noticed Nate Irving on defense this year was a goal line play, I think it was against the Chargers, where the QB sold the run so hard that the camera man and 10 of our defenders bought it. The only guy who didn't bite was Irving. We still gave up a touchdown, but it was refreshing to see a Bronco linebacker not completely dumbfounded by play action for once.

Tombstone RJ
02-13-2012, 09:48 PM
The only time I noticed Nate Irving on defense this year was a goal line play, I think it was against the Chargers, where the QB sold the run so hard that the camera man and 10 of our defenders bought it. The only guy who didn't bite was Irving. We still gave up a touchdown, but it was refreshing to see a Bronco linebacker not completely dumbfounded by play action for once.

the Bronco fan in me really, really wants to believe that Irving is the next great Broncos MLBer. But the data so far just does not back this up. I don't believe the coaching staff was holding him back as they played other rookies on defense, and on offense. Who knows? Perhaps he's all that and the Broncos are just waiting to unleash him on the NFL. However, I'd prefer they bring in a solid FA MLBer and not waste another draft pick on an ILBer if possible.

If the Broncos are confident Irving can play MLBer I'd think they'd go ahead and resign Mays as a solid back up. Let Irving start at MLBer and if he gets injured Mays can step in and play. It's not going to cost the Broncos much to keep Mays.

However if the Broncos bring in another FA MLBer and let Mays go it pretty much tells me it's a vote of no confidence in Irving. Irving will have to take the spot from the FA or another LBer on the team (DJ Williams?).

schaaf
02-13-2012, 09:57 PM
the Bronco fan in me really, really wants to believe that Irving is the next great Broncos MLBer. But the data so far just does not back this up. I don't believe the coaching staff was holding him back as they played other rookies on defense, and on offense. Who knows? Perhaps he's all that and the Broncos are just waiting to unleash him on the NFL. However, I'd prefer they bring in a solid FA MLBer and not waste another draft pick on an ILBer if possible.

If the Broncos are confident Irving can play MLBer I'd think they'd go ahead and resign Mays as a solid back up. Let Irving start at MLBer and if he gets injured Mays can step in and play. It's not going to cost the Broncos much to keep Mays.

However if the Broncos bring in another FA MLBer and let Mays go it pretty much tells me it's a vote of no confidence in Irving. Irving will have to take the spot from the FA or another LBer on the team (DJ Williams?).

In one of our preseason games where Nate got some action there was one play that has made me believe in him ever since then, I don't even remember what the offense ran but Nate showed more instincts in that one play than I have seen out of any of our linebackers in a long time, even on the fake in Minnesota I believe??? Irving was the only one who did not bite. Anyone who has watched him play has to admit that he has amazing instincts and doesn't have the measurable stats, give him some time to polish them.

Just another bit of Information, I asked Andrew Mason almost 3 months ago if he thought Irving had shown enough to be able to take over starting position and he answered with what he's seen he will be able to this offseason. Which leads me to believe that this is not a FO ploy and Mason's opinion hasn't changed even from 3 months ago

Tombstone RJ
02-13-2012, 10:02 PM
In one of our preseason games where Nate got some action there was one play that has made me believe in him ever since then, I don't even remember what the offense ran but Nate showed more instincts in that one play than I have seen out of any of our linebackers in a long time, even on the fake in Minnesota I believe??? Irving was the only one who did not bite. Anyone who has watched him play has to admit that he has amazing instincts and doesn't have the measurable stats, give him some time to polish them.

Just another bit of Information, I asked Andrew Mason almost 3 months ago if he thought Irving had shown enough to be able to take over starting position and he answered with what he's seen he will be able to this offseason. Which leads me to believe that this is not a FO ploy and Mason's opinion hasn't changed even from 3 months ago

I truly hope you are right, like I said, the fan in me wants to believe he can be the next great Broncos MLB.

BroncoMan4ever
02-13-2012, 10:26 PM
I think it's hard to judge where Irving stands. Mike is a very tough position for a rookie to step into in any given year, but with the Lockout he was in a tough position.

I agree completely that it would be huge if he can step in and upgrade that position. The direction the Broncos go in the draft will tell us a lot about how they feel towards Irving.

these same reasons are why i think Rahim Moore can still become something for us. in the NFL some rookies come in and play like rookies. for every Von Miller who comes in and looks like a vet, there are at least 10 rookies who came in and looked like ****.

give the guy a full offseason with the team and a year of experience of NFL football and he should be better.

and how great would it be if by year 2 of the 2011 draft picks careers, we had starters in Miller, Franklin, Moore, Carter, Irving and one of our TEs. that would be seen as a monumental draft and a great foundation to build on.