PDA

View Full Version : Too many men on field loophole?


Beantown Bronco
02-06-2012, 10:51 AM
I'm glad espn brought this up, because it was the first thing I thought of when it was happening:

The Giants might even have exploited a funny little loophole in the rule book. With 17 seconds left, Tom Brady took a snap and desperately searched around for an open receiver. He eventually launched a pass to a well-covered Aaron Hernandez that fell incomplete, but not before eight seconds had passed and a flag had fallen to the ground. The penalty? The Giants had 12 men on the field, a five-yarder that would allow the Patriots to replay the down from their own 49-yard line, but not reclaim the time on the clock.

In a situation where a team needs a touchdown with 20 seconds or so left in the game, time can be far more important than yards. Trading eight seconds for five yards there is a decision the defense will take every time, and even if the Patriots had the ability to get off a free play, the Giants had 12 men on the field and were more likely to stop such a play from succeeding. It's brilliant. It's illegal. But was it on purpose?

Normally, we wouldn't accuse a coach of employing such a strategy. Tom Coughlin certainly doesn't have a reputation for stretching the rules. But fellow Grantland contributor Chris Brown pointed out that there's a precedent for such behavior: Buddy Ryan's "Polish Defense" tactic, a move he employed near the goal line. Take it away, playbook:

THREE EXTRA LINEBACKERS GO INTO THE GAME.

Situation: The opponent is inside the 5 yard line going in to score. There is less than 15 seconds left. We want to stop their offense from scoring and in the process, we want to run the clock down to where they have enough time for just one play. So, we will stop them, get penalized half the distance to the goal, but leave them with enough time to run one play. We will then go back to our regular goal line defense and stop them to win the game.

Chris' post also notes that Ryan later placed 14 men onto the field for a last-minute punt while considering the same sort of strategy, and actually got away with it when the referees failed to recognize the extra men and didn't throw a flag.

It's easy to see how this might work for the Giants. By taking eight seconds off the clock, they force the Patriots into a situation where they essentially will have to throw a Hail Mary on the next play (or, in the worst case, two plays later). In fact, just as Ryan lamented not having 15 men on the field for the punt, the Giants probably should have run 13 men4 onto the field for the play, ensuring that a completion was almost certainly not forthcoming before taking their lumps.

In reality, the Giants probably just screwed up and put 12 men on the field amid all the excitement and drama of the final series. But don't be surprised if an NFL team remembers this situation next season, refers back to Ryan's mantra, and throws 14 players on the field for a key defensive snap inside 30 seconds. The NFL would be smart to close this loophole in the rules and turn the defensive 12-men penalty into a true free play, allowing the offense to either take the result of the play or the option of accepting a five-yard penalty with the time run off from the play added back onto the clock.

http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/7545771/the-patriots-giants-super-bowl-rematch-disappoint

ludo21
02-06-2012, 10:56 AM
good idea actually

BMF Bronco
02-06-2012, 10:59 AM
I brought that exact point up when it happened, i thought it was a brilliantly calculated move on the Giants part.

Tombstone RJ
02-06-2012, 10:59 AM
I think it was a honest mistake but IF it wasn't then putting 12 men on the field was a brilliant move. If the Giants did this on purpose it worked. However, if they did it on purpose it might have backfired in their face if they put 13-14 guys out there. If they had done this than their plausible deniability goes way down.

BroncoBen
02-06-2012, 10:59 AM
Yea.. we debated this call last night. I bet this rule gets changed at some time.. it benifits the Giants, sure give up 5 yards... but running time off the clock is what they were trying to do.

Spider
02-06-2012, 11:00 AM
Yes it was ..... any time a team is on their side of the 50 , just dont get a spot foul

TheChamp24
02-06-2012, 11:06 AM
All the offense has to do is snap the ball and spike it, getting 5 yards for 1 second off the clock.
Of course, honestly, maybe the rule should be like in college where the play is blown dead at the snap.

RADRHATR
02-06-2012, 11:20 AM
I am positive that this was not intentional but if the roles were reveresed and the red ass Belichick had done it the media would be singing his praises and saying he is such a "genius" . F'ing cheater!!!

UberBroncoMan
02-06-2012, 11:27 AM
Yeah I thought the same exact thing. Was telling myself, they should just put their entire ****ing team out there or at least 13-14. If they had done that though, it would have placed an * on the game and really left a sour taste in many mouths. The 12 man one was probably intentional though...any more than that would be obvious.

TerrElway
02-06-2012, 11:34 AM
The real risk you run is forcing a turnover that would end win the game for you and now having to give it back and giving the offense another chance.

BroncoBeavis
02-06-2012, 11:42 AM
All the offense has to do is snap the ball and spike it, getting 5 yards for 1 second off the clock.
Of course, honestly, maybe the rule should be like in college where the play is blown dead at the snap.

Nah, they just need to give the time back in 2-minute scenarios. Problem solved.

WolfpackGuy
02-06-2012, 11:42 AM
I don't think it was intentional last night, but Buddy Ryan getting away with a 14 man defense is hilarious.

ColoradoDarin
02-06-2012, 12:14 PM
I don't think it was intentional, but we were laughing about it, who cares about 5 yards when you can run off 8 seconds out of 17.

enjolras
02-06-2012, 12:33 PM
I don't think it was intentional, but we were laughing about it, who cares about 5 yards when you can run off 8 seconds out of 17.

Although it opens up the middle of the field for the QB (if he sees the flag). You can complete something over the middle cause you know the clock is gonna stop.

Spider
02-06-2012, 12:39 PM
All the offense has to do is snap the ball and spike it, getting 5 yards for 1 second off the clock.
Of course, honestly, maybe the rule should be like in college where the play is blown dead at the snap.

you cant do that , You have to give the offense the free play , If the receiver catches and scores ,it was a free play , it isnt the refs fault Brady didnt just throw it away ...... Encroachment does the same thing as 12 men on the field ...

Doggcow
02-06-2012, 12:49 PM
Great coaching. Just like letting your opponent score when there's no time left. I fully agree with both situations where it happened (even though they lost) it gave them a chance.

gyldenlove
02-06-2012, 01:15 PM
12 men on the field should be a presnap call just as false start is, march 5 yards off without changing the game clock.

Spider
02-06-2012, 01:16 PM
12 men on the field should be a presnap call just as false start is, march 5 yards off without changing the game clock.

on defense ? only time offsides on the defense and the play is stopped is if there is contact , or the defender is un evaded to the QB

broncosteven
02-06-2012, 01:17 PM
I found the tactic of the Patsy's "giving" the Giants the TD run so Tommy could get the ball back LAME, that tactic has never worked.

Beantown Bronco
02-06-2012, 01:30 PM
I found the tactic of the Patsy's "giving" the Giants the TD run so Tommy could get the ball back LAME, that tactic has never worked.

What are the odds of getting a TD in 58 seconds + 1 timeout vs. getting a FG with 20 seconds and no timeouts? I think they made the right mathematical call.

Shananahan
02-06-2012, 01:42 PM
The real risk you run is forcing a turnover that would end win the game for you and now having to give it back and giving the offense another chance.
I'm pretty sure that's not the 'real risk'.

gyldenlove
02-06-2012, 02:01 PM
on defense ? only time offsides on the defense and the play is stopped is if there is contact , or the defender is un evaded to the QB

Same for defense and offense, if the offense has 12 men in the huddle it is called right away, same for false start, neutral zone infraction and offside unabated to the qb.

gyldenlove
02-06-2012, 02:02 PM
What are the odds of getting a TD in 58 seconds + 1 timeout vs. getting a FG with 20 seconds and no timeouts? I think they made the right mathematical call.

Giving up points have worked for them before, they have given up a safety in Denver to get the ball back and score the winning points late.

BroncoBeavis
02-06-2012, 02:04 PM
What are the odds of getting a TD in 58 seconds + 1 timeout vs. getting a FG with 20 seconds and no timeouts? I think they made the right mathematical call.

There's also the possibility that the Giants miss the FG to factor in there somewhere. Not likely. But with world titles on the line, funny things can happen.

Garcia Bronco
02-06-2012, 02:10 PM
12 men on the field should be a presnap call just as false start is, march 5 yards off without changing the game clock.

It is...if it's on the the offense.

bowtown
02-06-2012, 02:22 PM
Giving up points have worked for them before, they have given up a safety in Denver to get the ball back and score the winning points late.

That game pissed me off so much.

Mogulseeker
02-06-2012, 03:19 PM
Normally, we wouldn't accuse a coach of employing such a strategy. Tom Coughlin certainly doesn't have a reputation for stretching the rules. But fellow Grantland contributor Chris Brown pointed out that there's a precedent for such behavior: Buddy Ryan's "Polish Defense" tactic, a move he employed near the goal line. Take it away, playbook:


Uhhh.... wasn't Coughlin the guy that the NFL threatened to fine for faking injuries in order to stop the clock w/o timeouts?

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/eY26rgd4aps" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

ColoradoDarin
02-06-2012, 03:21 PM
What are the odds of getting a TD in 58 seconds + 1 timeout vs. getting a FG with 20 seconds and no timeouts? I think they made the right mathematical call.

Can't think of any games where they intentionally gave up the TD (only like Denver/Cincy the Stokely tip-ball game, where we didn't give up the TD intentionally), but OTOH the Bears/Falcons game went the other way on like a 10 second drive.

broncosteven
02-06-2012, 03:51 PM
Can't think of any games where they intentionally gave up the TD (only like Denver/Cincy the Stokely tip-ball game, where we didn't give up the TD intentionally), but OTOH the Bears/Falcons game went the other way on like a 10 second drive.

They only needed a FG.

I would have tried to hold them to a FG, go for the strip, Brady had a better chance of getting them in position for a long FG with seconds left rather than a TD with a minute.

Who knows maybe Welker and Hernandez would have had drops on their 20 second drive just like they did in reality...

lookin' glass
02-06-2012, 03:52 PM
I'm still wondering what happened to the defenseless receiver rule when the Giant receiver (Hicks I think) got blasted on the sideline. The rule has been credited to hit Kenoy Kennedy laid on Chambers. Lynch got tagged for it on Dallas Clark. Did it get changed as well?

MagicHef
02-06-2012, 04:04 PM
I'm still wondering what happened to the defenseless receiver rule when the Giant receiver (Hicks I think) got blasted on the sideline. The rule has been credited to hit Kenoy Kennedy laid on Chambers. Lynch got tagged for it on Dallas Clark. Did it get changed as well?

I was wondering the same thing until I saw the replay. He hit him in the side below the arm, it has to be a hit to the head/neck area to be called.

gunns
02-06-2012, 05:44 PM
What are the odds of getting a TD in 58 seconds + 1 timeout vs. getting a FG with 20 seconds and no timeouts? I think they made the right mathematical call.

Yeah, Holmgren and Belichick can commiserate about that. Losers!

waz06
02-06-2012, 06:04 PM
That game pissed me off so much.

I was at that monday nite game too

Wasn't it Deltha Oneal who failed to field the kick that gave us crappy field position and we had to punt back to the patriots who came back to beat us?