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View Full Version : Brady's good... but he's not the Greatest.


fwf
02-06-2012, 07:06 AM
I really dont care how many super bowls he plays in or how many he wins for that matter. Football is a team sport. If I need one QB in his prime to win a Game for me its not gonna be this guy. Im not saying he's not a great QB , but to say he' the greatest of all time would be wrong. I would put him in the 5-8 range. I just dont see the accuracy on his longer passes or ability to throw it deep effectively at all. You cant just automatically say a person is the greatest by how many superbowls he plays in or wins. Imagine if the Pats would have pulled that game out, which they could have? Thats all everyone would be talking about today. "This guy is the greatest of all time".. Bull sh*t! Ive been watching him for along time and yeah he'll hit the short routes all day, but what about the deeper routes. Thats why he was drafted in the 7th. He's just not as accurate going down field as say P Manning or Marino or Aikman. Look at the int. to Gronk or the drop by Welker which he should have caught but was actully thrown to the wrong shoulder. And he was awful in the conference championship.

Im not going to sit here and say Elway was the greatest.. These guys played in different eras so its hard to compare. But I really dont think its Brady either

ol#7
02-06-2012, 07:08 AM
Hasn't won a SB since spygate. NE is a team in decline. They won the AFC in a reorginazation year. While a certain futue HOF'er, no way does he make the top 5 qb's list.

Garcia Bronco
02-06-2012, 07:14 AM
Hasn't won a SB since spygate. NE is a team in decline. They won the AFC in a reorginazation year. While a certain futue HOF'er, no way does he make the top 5 qb's list.

He might not even be top ten

jhns
02-06-2012, 07:15 AM
Elway is the greatest of all time. Brady is in the conversation though. You are off on his throwing. He led the best offense in NFL history. He has been extremely clutch. That team only had four games this regular season where they didn't score over 30 points. That is 12 games of over 30 points. 15 games of over 20 points. This is very impressive. Brady also isn't done yet.

The non-comeback wasn't on him. He made a couple impressive throws that were dropped at the end.

Gort
02-06-2012, 07:27 AM
He might not even be top ten

Unitas
Elway
Kelly
Marino
Staubach
Aikman?
Theisman?
Starr
Favre
Tarkenton
Young
Montana
Warner?
Bradshaw
Graham
Stabler?
Pumpkinhead?
Fouts
Dawson?
Bob Griese
Gabriel?
Moon?

i think we can find 10 more deserving just on this list.

iforgotmypassword
02-06-2012, 07:27 AM
Brady, Marino, Elway

bendog
02-06-2012, 07:36 AM
Since the knee, he won't step into throws with the pocket collapsing. Up until then, he was a match for anyone.

BroncoBeavis
02-06-2012, 07:43 AM
Hasn't won a SB since spygate. NE is a team in decline. They won the AFC in a reorginazation year. While a certain futue HOF'er, no way does he make the top 5 qb's list.

Not a Pats fan by any stretch, but if losing the SB by 4 points is considered 'decline' nowadays, I'm definitely all-in on decline.

Dedhed
02-06-2012, 07:45 AM
Unitas
Elway
Kelly
Marino
Staubach
Aikman?
Theisman?
Starr
Favre
Tarkenton
Young
Montana
Warner?
Bradshaw
Graham
Stabler?
Pumpkinhead?
Fouts
Dawson?
Bob Griese
Gabriel?
Moon?

i think we can find 10 more deserving just on this list.
I agree that he's not the greatest, but this list is way too long. Warner? GTFO

55CrushEm
02-06-2012, 07:46 AM
THE greatest? As in THE #1 QB of all time? Brady was NEVER that.

The only morons who say that are fair-weather, johnny come lately Pats fans.....and the nut suckers at ESPN.

Gort
02-06-2012, 07:49 AM
I agree that he's not the greatest, but this list is way too long. Warner? GTFO

i don't know where Warner stands either, but he did throw for 32,000+ yards in about 124 NFL games. however, on another thread, one guy is talking about Eli as a shoe-in for the HOF because he has 27,000 yards in 121 games.

Tombstone RJ
02-06-2012, 07:50 AM
Brady is definitely in the top 10. He has 3 rings, and a couple of MVP awards and he's been to 5 SBs. You can hate him all you want but that doesn't change the fact that he's absolutely one of the top 10 QBs of all time. And I can't stand the friggen cheatriots.

Gort
02-06-2012, 07:51 AM
THE greatest? As in THE #1 QB of all time? Brady was NEVER that.

The only morons who say that are fair-weather, johnny come lately Pats fans.....and the nut suckers at ESPN.

this.

this era of the NFL is the equivalent of the steroid era in baseball. we are seeing ridiculous numbers put up by QBs because the rules are so one-sided in favor of passing offenses, just like the steroid era led to top HR hitterss routinely hitting 50, 60, and even 70 HRs a year. the NFL rules need to come back to fairness and stop favoring the offensive passing game.

fwf
02-06-2012, 07:53 AM
THE greatest? As in THE #1 QB of all time? Brady was NEVER that.

The only morons who say that are fair-weather, johnny come lately Pats fans.....and the nut suckers at ESPN.

If they would have won that game yesterday then everyone would be having this discussion today. Bet on that

WolfpackGuy
02-06-2012, 07:56 AM
His lack of athleticism gets exposed against good defensive fronts.

Anybody can play that pitch and catch stuff with a clean pocket and no contact on the receivers.

He's not even in the discussion of the great ones as far as I'm concerned.

Gort
02-06-2012, 07:58 AM
His lack of athleticism gets exposed against good defensive fronts.

Anybody can play that pitch and catch stuff with a clean pocket and no contact on the receivers.

He's not even in the discussion of the great ones as far as I'm concerned.

i think you are on to something.

we need to start a campaign to put asterisks next to his stats in the record books.

:)

bendog
02-06-2012, 07:58 AM
Brady is definitely in the top 10. He has 3 rings, and a couple of MVP awards and he's been to 5 SBs. You can hate him all you want but that doesn't change the fact that he's absolutely one of the top 10 QBs of all time. And I can't stand the friggen cheatriots.

I kinda equate his career with Namath. Brady had an iron chin in the pocket and was deadly accurate mid range. He's been able to hang on with the rules that protect qbs even when they lose the athletic ability to protect themselves.

55CrushEm
02-06-2012, 07:58 AM
If they would have won that game yesterday then everyone would be having this discussion today. Bet on that

Oh, no doubt. Which is why I feel so RELIEVED that they lost. I live in MA, and had the Pats won.....listening to local sports radio would have been UNBEARABLE.

I mentioned after the AFC title game vs. the Ravens.....that one of the sports radio hosts implied that Vince Wilfork's performance in that game might have to be considered as one of the greatest DL performances of all time.

This is the type of homeristic BS that supports the fact that these clowns didn't think football existed before the Pats became good.

Apparently this guy has never heard of players like Deacon Jones, Howie Long, Reggie White, Bruce Smith, "Mean" Joe Green, etc., etc.

Vince Wilfork played great......but to make that statement. Seriously?

bendog
02-06-2012, 08:00 AM
Oh, no doubt. Which is why I feel so RELIEVED that they lost. I live in MA, and had the Pats won.....listening to local sports radio would have been UNBEARABLE.

I mentioned after the AFC title game vs. the Ravens.....that one of the sports radio hosts implied that Vince Wilfork's performance in that game might have to be considered as one of the greatest DL performances of all time.

This is the type of homeristic BS that supports the fact that these clowns didn't think football existed before the Pats became good.

Apparently this guy has never heard of players like Deacon Jones, Howie Long, Reggie White, Bruce Smith, "Mean" Joe Green, etc., etc.

Vince Wilfork played great......but to make that statement. Seriously?

Hey, Wilfolk is great. Anyone who can play 60 mins of football after eating 12 big macs is epic.

Gort
02-06-2012, 08:01 AM
Oh, no doubt. Which is why I feel so RELIEVED that they lost. I live in MA, and had the Pats won.....listening to local sports radio would have been UNBEARABLE.

I mentioned after the AFC title game vs. the Ravens.....that one of the sports radio hosts implied that Vince Wilfork's performance in that game might have to be considered as one of the greatest DL performances of all time.

This is the type of homeristic BS that supports the fact that these clowns didn't think football existed before the Pats became good.

Apparently this guy has never heard of players like Deacon Jones, Howie Long, Reggie White, Bruce Smith, "Mean" Joe Green, etc., etc.

Vince Wilfork played great......but to make that statement. Seriously?

...and that sports radio guy was probably wearing a pink Red Sox cap when he said it.

:~ohyah!:

Garcia Bronco
02-06-2012, 08:04 AM
Brady is definitely in the top 10. He has 3 rings, and a couple of MVP awards and he's been to 5 SBs. You can hate him all you want but that doesn't change the fact that he's absolutely one of the top 10 QBs of all time. And I can't stand the friggen cheatriots.

Across all eras? Maybe not.

Unitis(forgot him, doh!)
Graham
Montana
Starr
Elway
Baugh
Staubach
Bradshaw
Aikman
Moon

At best I would have him number 9ish ahead of Favre, Marino, and Pluckett.

Gort
02-06-2012, 08:05 AM
Hey, Wilfolk is great. Anyone who can play 60 mins of football after eating 12 big macs is epic.

ever see what The Fridge could put away pre-game? that guy has huge appetites for food and booze and appears to be headed down a dead-end path.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/playoffs/2010/news/story?id=6091766

WolfpackGuy
02-06-2012, 08:05 AM
Oh, no doubt. Which is why I feel so RELIEVED that they lost. I live in MA, and had the Pats won.....listening to local sports radio would have been UNBEARABLE.

I mentioned after the AFC title game vs. the Ravens.....that one of the sports radio hosts implied that Vince Wilfork's performance in that game might have to be considered as one of the greatest DL performances of all time.

This is the type of homeristic BS that supports the fact that these clowns didn't think football existed before the Pats became good.

Apparently this guy has never heard of players like Deacon Jones, Howie Long, Reggie White, Bruce Smith, "Mean" Joe Green, etc., etc.

Vince Wilfork played great......but to make that statement. Seriously?

I know.

He was just playing old ass Matt Birk!

Turd_Ferguson
02-06-2012, 08:13 AM
I really dont care how many super bowls he plays in or how many he wins for that matter. Football is a team sport. If I need one QB in his prime to win a Game for me its not gonna be this guy. Im not saying he's not a great QB , but to say he' the greatest of all time would be wrong. I would put him in the 5-8 range. I just dont see the accuracy on his longer passes or ability to throw it deep effectively at all. You cant just automatically say a person is the greatest by how many superbowls he plays in or wins. Imagine if the Pats would have pulled that game out, which they could have? Thats all everyone would be talking about today. "This guy is the greatest of all time".. Bull sh*t! Ive been watching him for along time and yeah he'll hit the short routes all day, but what about the deeper routes. Thats why he was drafted in the 7th. He's just not as accurate going down field as say P Manning or Marino or Aikman. Look at the int. to Gronk or the drop by Welker which he should have caught but was actully thrown to the wrong shoulder. And he was awful in the conference championship.

Im not going to sit here and say Elway was the greatest.. These guys played in different eras so its hard to compare. But I really dont think its Brady either

I can't believe I'm going to stick up for Tom Brady, but maybe you should call Randy Moss and ask him how well Brady threw the deep ball when they broke the frickin touchdown record the year they went undefeated and lost in the SB. I think Brady's arm has gotten stronger as his career goes on. Yes his deep ball looked like crap yesterday, but not during the year, or particularly the playoff game against Denver.

All that said he is not the greatest of all time, that is John Elway. Just heard Dan Patrick mention that he would take Elway over Brady last week on his radio show, and have heard numerous ESPN and other sports people (particularly ex players) say the same thing.

BroncoBeavis
02-06-2012, 08:19 AM
All that said he is not the greatest of all time, that is John Elway. Just heard Dan Patrick mention that he would take Elway over Brady last week on his radio show, and have heard numerous ESPN and other sports people (particularly ex players) say the same thing.

Probably going to be branded a heretic for this, but I think it's a generational thing. Everyone wants to latch onto a 'greatest' from their era and proclaim them the GOAT.

In reality the NFL changes so much from era to era that the greats were really playing different games. There's no such thing as a Greatest Ever in the NFL. Best you can do is be the greatest of any given era.

Dedhed
02-06-2012, 08:23 AM
i don't know where Warner stands either, but he did throw for 32,000+ yards in about 124 NFL games. however, on another thread, one guy is talking about Eli as a shoe-in for the HOF because he has 27,000 yards in 121 games.

Warner stands behind Brady. I know that much.

Beantown Bronco
02-06-2012, 08:24 AM
I can't believe I'm going to stick up for Tom Brady, but maybe you should call Randy Moss and ask him how well Brady threw the deep ball when they broke the frickin touchdown record the year they went undefeated and lost in the SB.

He very rarely hit him anywhere near in stride that season. A good portion of those were pure hail mary types where Moss would simply outfight/jump the DBs around him. He actually admitted as much in several interviews during and after that season. He had a ton of faith in Moss and his ability to come down with anything anywhere near him.

WolfpackGuy
02-06-2012, 08:26 AM
A fair amount of the those numbers Brady put up in 2007 were in blowout situations where NORMALLY your starters would be on the bench late.

Gort
02-06-2012, 08:27 AM
There's no such thing as a Greatest Ever in the NFL.

wrong.

proof below.

Greatest Ever Photo of NFL Cheerleaders.

http://ph.cdn.photos.upi.com/collection/upi/16ff83a6a7850bb40364f173401209fd/-Denver-Broncos-Cheerleaders-Perform-in-Denver_9.jpg

Turd_Ferguson
02-06-2012, 08:29 AM
Probably going to be branded a heretic for this, but I think it's a generational thing. Everyone wants to latch onto a 'greatest' from their era and proclaim them the GOAT.

In reality the NFL changes so much from era to era that the greats were really playing different games. There's no such thing as a Greatest Ever in the NFL. Best you can do is be the greatest of any given era.

Well for starters I was born in 83 so Elway wasn't really from my era... I would say Favre was probably the QB of my era... I do however think that Elway is better than any quarterback that has come into the league since he retired. Elway was more mobile than Manning or Brady, smarter than Favre, more durable than Rodgers, more superbowl appearances with less than Rapistburger, bigger and stronger than Brees, the list goes on... Elway would tear this league apart today. Only favre, maybe Cutler come close to his mixture of arm strength and accuracy. Granted some day the game may evolve to the point that it would pass Elway by, but it hasn't yet.

bendog
02-06-2012, 08:32 AM
imo Luck is the qb who is expected to be great to come into the league since Elway. It will be interesting to see how it works out.

Bronco Rob
02-06-2012, 08:32 AM
Brady did have a fine career one of the better quaterbacks of the decade. I wonder if the Pats will try to groom his successor now?


Kinda funny how he's failed to win a Super Bowl since the Spygate allegations were made public?




?

Turd_Ferguson
02-06-2012, 08:32 AM
He very rarely hit him anywhere near in stride that season. A good portion of those were pure hail mary types where Moss would simply outfight/jump the DBs around him. He actually admitted as much in several interviews during and after that season. He had a ton of faith in Moss and his ability to come down with anything anywhere near him.

That may be true but why didn't Culpepper and Moss set the record then? Or Brad Johnson, Gus Ferrotte, Jeff George, Randall Cunningham? Moss never broke the record untill he had Brady throwing him the ball.

Beantown Bronco
02-06-2012, 08:36 AM
That may be true but why didn't Culpepper and Moss set the record then? Or Brad Johnson, Gus Ferrotte, Jeff George, Randall Cunningham? Moss never broke the record untill he had Brady throwing him the ball.

Why did Brady and Moss only do it one year? Why didn't they keep Moss around?

Turd_Ferguson
02-06-2012, 08:39 AM
Why did Brady and Moss only do it one year? Why didn't they keep Moss around?

Brady blew out his knee first game of 2008. After a year of playing with Matt Casshole Moss was suicidal and was never the same.

Beantown Bronco
02-06-2012, 08:41 AM
Brady blew out his knee first game of 2008. After a year of playing with Matt Ca-hole Moss was suicidal and was never the same.

Just like before 2007. He was on his best behavior for a little while, but that's it. If he was as motivated in Minnesota as he was in NE in 2007, he would've had a few more years like that, regardless of who was throwing him the deep ball.

Bronco Rob
02-06-2012, 08:42 AM
Case in point. The Cheatriots went 11-5 with out Brady. Look at what happened to the Colts sans Peyton.



:strong:

BroncoBeavis
02-06-2012, 08:48 AM
Well for starters I was born in 83 so Elway wasn't really from my era... I would say Favre was probably the QB of my era... I do however think that Elway is better than any quarterback that has come into the league since he retired. Elway was more mobile than Manning or Brady, smarter than Favre, more durable than Rodgers, more superbowl appearances with less than Rapistburger, bigger and stronger than Brees, the list goes on... Elway would tear this league apart today. Only favre, maybe Cutler come close to his mixture of arm strength and accuracy. Granted some day the game may evolve to the point that it would pass Elway by, but it hasn't yet.

I meant the comment more in the context of guys like Dan Patrick. Home team nuts (like you and I) are probably apt to rank their team's greats among the GOATs (if there's a plausible candidate) so for a Broncos fan, the generational thing might be spread out a little further.

But Favre is a good example of what I'm talking about. Shortly after (or maybe during the first few) retirement he was mentioned as a potential GOAT. I don't think that argument will stand the test of time though. Especially now that he's a goat for different reasons. :)

BroncoBeavis
02-06-2012, 08:49 AM
Case in point. The Cheatriots went 11-5 with out Brady. Look at what happened to the Colts sans Peyton.



:strong:

Should've been expressed in picture form.

Bronco Rob
02-06-2012, 08:51 AM
This article to from December 30th, 1996.


Keep it honest, too. Show those dark circles under the eyes, and the crow's feet—more crow's feet than any 36-year-old man should have, carved there by 14 years of trying to win with small-fry linemen, cement-footed receivers and witness-protection-program running backs. Everybody wants to talk about Super Bowls, but forget Super Bowls for a second and try this: Punch REWIND on your time machine and put Elway behind all of Joe Montana's lines in San Francisco and Montana behind all of Elway's lines in Denver. Nothing much changes in San Francisco, but by the age of 28 Montana is either dead or selling life insurance.

That is the thing, really. John Elway never had a Guy McIntyre. John Elway never had a Jerry Rice. John Elway had a whole lot of guys who are now waiting tables.

So far in Elway's career, his offensive linemen and wide receivers have been voted to the Pro Bowl a combined six times. In Dan Marino's 14 seasons, Miami Dolphins offensive linemen and wide receivers have been selected to the Pro Bowl 30 times. More than any athlete since Wilt Chamberlain on the Philadelphia and San Francisco Warriors of the late 1950s and early '60s, Elway has had to play at a superb level game after game, year after year, to make his team a winner. Though usually surrounded by a human rummage sale, Elway has won more games as a starter than any other quarterback in NFL history (126). It's the equivalent of carving Mount Rushmore with a spoon or composing Beethoven's Ninth on a kazoo.




:thumbs:

Turd_Ferguson
02-06-2012, 08:55 AM
I meant the comment more in the context of guys like Dan Patrick. Home team nuts (like you and I) are probably apt to rank their team's greats among the GOATs (if there's a plausible candidate) so for a Broncos fan, the generational thing might be spread out a little further.

But Favre is a good example of what I'm talking about. Shortly after (or maybe during the first few) retirement he was mentioned as a potential GOAT. I don't think that argument will stand the test of time though. Especially now that he's a goat for different reasons. :)

Oh you're right about that I'm sure when Drew Brees retires more than one idiot will babble on about how he may be one of the greatest ever... Even though I think its pretty clear he was a borderline great QB that was held back by his physical limitations..

Turd_Ferguson
02-06-2012, 08:57 AM
This article to from December 30th, 1996.







:thumbs:

Rick Reilly?

Gort
02-06-2012, 08:59 AM
this would probably be my top 5.

1. Unitas
2. Elway
3. Young or Tarkenton
4. Tarkenton or Young
5. Staubach

Brady. Brees. Peyton Manning. they all play in the "juiced ball/steroid" era. all of their stats need asterisks.

Bronco Rob
02-06-2012, 09:02 AM
Elway spent his first decade in the league working with Mark Jackson, Vance Johnson, Gaston Green, Sammy Winder, Bobby Humphrey, Clarence Kay, Steve Watson and a defensive-minded head coach, Dan Reeves, who was afraid to unleash Elway until he absolutely had to. In Elway's 10th season (1992), third-year tight end Shannon Sharpe was elevated to a full-time starter, and it marked the first time in Elway's career he threw the ball to a Pro Bowl tight end or receiver.

Elway dragged slop to Super Bowls in 1986, 1987 and 1989.



Name another quarterback in NFL history that would have taken those teams to a Superbowl?




Take your time....I'll wait........:thumbs:

Gort
02-06-2012, 09:06 AM
Elway spent his first decade in the league working with Mark Jackson, Vance Johnson, Gaston Green, Sammy Winder, Bobby Humphrey, Clarence Kay, Steve Watson and a defensive-minded head coach, Dan Reeves, who was afraid to unleash Elway until he absolutely had to. In Elway's 10th season (1992), third-year tight end Shannon Sharpe was elevated to a full-time starter, and it marked the first time in Elway's career he threw the ball to a Pro Bowl tight end or receiver.

Elway dragged slop to Super Bowls in 1986, 1987 and 1989.



Name another quarterback in NFL history that would have taken those teams to a Superbowl?




Take your time....I'll wait........:thumbs:

Tarkenton. Young. maybe.

Bronco Rob
02-06-2012, 09:10 AM
Tarkenton. Young. maybe.



No offense but neither one of those player had half of Elway's abilites. Young played with HOF talent so did Tarkenton. Give Elway those 49er & Viking teams and he'd have more rings than an oak tree.



:thumbs:

Kaylore
02-06-2012, 09:29 AM
ever see what The Fridge could put away pre-game? that guy has huge appetites for food and booze and appears to be headed down a dead-end path.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/playoffs/2010/news/story?id=6091766
Thanks for posting this. That is a sad tale.

Tombstone RJ
02-06-2012, 09:44 AM
this would probably be my top 5.

1. Unitas
2. Elway
3. Young or Tarkenton
4. Tarkenton or Young
5. Staubach

Brady. Brees. Peyton Manning. they all play in the "juiced ball/steroid" era. all of their stats need asterisks.

really, I think this is just sour grapes. The players don't determin the rules and the rule changes can arguably be directly linked to the mauling that DBs were putting on WR ala the stuuuuupide zittsburg stellers defenses that everyone wants to call so great.

but whatever.

Gort
02-06-2012, 10:04 AM
really, I think this is just sour grapes. The players don't determin the rules and the rule changes can arguably be directly linked to the mauling that DBs were putting on WR ala the stuuuuupide zittsburg stellers defenses that everyone wants to call so great.

but whatever.

Brady, Brees, Rodgers, Manning wouldn't have been anywhere near as successful or put up the stats they have if they'd played in the 1970's and 1980's. it was a tougher game then. QBs were tough too. nowadays, QBs get manicures/pedicures and that's the most physical contact they have to worry about all week. all 4 of them have the skills to be accurate passers, but the league allowed defenders to defend back then and to get a PI call, the defender basically had to tackle the receiver to prevent them from catching the ball. in fact, back in those days, that was considered a good play by a defender because they only did it when they were beat for a sure TD.

Tombstone RJ
02-06-2012, 10:10 AM
Brady, Brees, Rodgers, Manning wouldn't have been anywhere near as successful or put up the stats they have if they'd played in the 1970's and 1980's. it was a tougher game then. QBs were tough too. nowadays, QBs get manicures/pedicures and that's the most physical contact they have to worry about all week. all 4 of them have the skills to be accurate passers, but the league allowed defenders to defend back then and to get a PI call, the defender basically had to tackle the receiver to prevent them from catching the ball. in fact, back in those days, that was considered a good play by a defender because they only did it when they were beat for a sure TD.

perhaps, but the rules were changed because the DBs were all over the WRs. People like offense, the NFL knows this.

Also, if you watched the SB there were two plays I believe, where I thought pass interference COULD have been called but was not. So it still kind of comes down to the refs too.

The players are much bigger and faster in today's NFL so the throwing windows are much smaller too. You can project that Brees, Manning, Brady, Rodgers wouldn't make it in the old NFL, but that really is just your opinion. These are excellent QBs and they throw the ball extremely accurately into tight windows. Windows guys like Bradshaw could never hit.

NFLBRONCO
02-06-2012, 10:14 AM
Brady to me is a system QB that had a longer TD type career.

Pony Boy
02-06-2012, 10:25 AM
If I were building a team as could and could draft any QB that's ever played the game, my choice would be Elway........ hands down, no questions asked.

Tombstone RJ
02-06-2012, 10:31 AM
If I were building a team as could and could draft any QB that's ever played the game, my choice would be Elway........ hands down, no questions asked.

I agree. He can play old school and he can throw the ball into tight windows ala today's NFL that caters to the passing game.

Elway has it all.

Gort
02-06-2012, 10:32 AM
perhaps, but the rules were changed because the DBs were all over the WRs. People like offense, the NFL knows this.

Also, if you watched the SB there were two plays I believe, where I thought pass interference COULD have been called but was not. So it still kind of comes down to the refs too.

The players are much bigger and faster in today's NFL so the throwing windows are much smaller too. You can project that Brees, Manning, Brady, Rodgers wouldn't make it in the old NFL, but that really is just your opinion. These are excellent QBs and they throw the ball extremely accurately into tight windows. Windows guys like Bradshaw could never hit.

lots of guys had the same skills that today's elite QBs possess. they just played in an era where they didn't have such an advantage with the passing game.

are you a millennial? because that would explain your assumption that nothing that happened before 1995 is of any consequence.

e.g., if the Dan Fouts led Chargers offense of the very early 80's played under today's rules, they'd probably score 60+ points every week. but you'd need to be over 35 now to have witnessed that team play.

Willynowei
02-06-2012, 10:32 AM
really? REALLY?

He's plenty accurate, he just had a few errant throws that were magnified because Eli played a near perfect game.

Bronco Rob
02-06-2012, 10:36 AM
really? REALLY?

He's plenty accurate, he just had a few errant throws that were magnified because Eli played a near perfect game.


Brady threw three interceptions in his last 2 games and i'd be i'd be remiss if i didn't bring up the saftey he gave up due to her fear of contact.


.

BroncoBen
02-06-2012, 10:40 AM
really? REALLY?

He's plenty accurate, he just had a few errant throws that were magnified because Eli played a near perfect game.

That is true... Brady was asked to play a perfect game and it didn't happen. He was pressured and his throws were off.. it happens.

He still had the Pats in a position to win at the end of the game.. the ball gets tipped and hangs just another foot in the air Gronk could have made the catch.

Tombstone RJ
02-06-2012, 10:49 AM
lots of guys had the same skills that today's elite QBs possess. they just played in an era where they didn't have such an advantage with the passing game.

are you a millennial? because that would explain your assumption that nothing that happened before 1995 is of any consequence.

e.g., if the Dan Fouts led Chargers offense of the very early 80's played under today's rules, they'd probably score 60+ points every week. but you'd need to be over 35 now to have witnessed that team play.

I'm just saying the game is different now than it was back then and just because of that you can't deny the skills of the current QBs. You are projecting that Dan Fouts would be successful without taking into account the bigger, faster players and hence, the tighter, smaller windows to deliver the ball. Would Dan Fouts be all-world in today's NFL, I don't know, maybe? On the flip side would Drew Brees be successful back in the 1970s and 1980s, I don't know, maybe? If you wanna say Fouts would be racking up the wins in today's NFL then I'm going to say that Brees would have racked up the wins in yesterday's NFL too. Again, if you want to project then I'm going to project too.

That being said QBs like Bradshaw would not being winning SBs. Nor would other QBs who relied on their toughness rather than their ability to throw the ball.

NFLBRONCO
02-06-2012, 10:50 AM
Brady is the greatest 1 yd passer ever

Bronco Rob
02-06-2012, 10:51 AM
Brady is the greatest 1 yd passer ever


Just ask Wes Welker. He made a career off of catching brady's glorified swing passes.

BroncoBeavis
02-06-2012, 10:56 AM
In both the last 4th quarters, Brady look flustered.

That pick throwing deep to Gronk just looked desperate. And he didn't need to be desperate at that point. They were successful with the possession game earlier. Then the Giants get some pressure on him and he heaves a hail mary into coverage. He could've just taken a few yards on the ground or thown it away.

That pick changed the game. He did the same thing against the Ravens. Lucky for him, the Ravens couldn't capitalize.

WolfpackGuy
02-06-2012, 11:10 AM
In both the last 4th quarters, Brady look flustered.

That pick throwing deep to Gronk just looked desperate. And he didn't need to be desperate at that point. They were successful with the possession game earlier. Then the Giants get some pressure on him and he heaves a hail mary into coverage. He could've just taken a few yards on the ground or thown it away.

That pick changed the game. He did the same thing against the Ravens. Lucky for him, the Ravens couldn't capitalize.

I can't bash the decision, but that was a terrible underthrow.

Gronkowski (even hurt) would've easily caught that for a TD if Brady had enough arm to get it to the end zone because Gronkowski was open.

Gort
02-06-2012, 11:11 AM
I'm just saying the game is different now than it was back then and just because of that you can't deny the skills of the current QBs. You are projecting that Dan Fouts would be successful without taking into account the bigger, faster players and hence, the tighter, smaller windows to deliver the ball. Would Dan Fouts be all-world in today's NFL, I don't know, maybe? On the flip side would Drew Brees be successful back in the 1970s and 1980s, I don't know, maybe? If you wanna say Fouts would be racking up the wins in today's NFL then I'm going to say that Brees would have racked up the wins in yesterday's NFL too. Again, if you want to project then I'm going to project too.

That being said QBs like Bradshaw would not being winning SBs. Nor would other QBs who relied on their toughness rather than their ability to throw the ball.

Bradshaw. no.

but the top passing QBs of those days would be putting up stats nowadays that would be unheard of. whereas, most of the top passing QBs today wouldn't survive long enough back then to even have their names remembered. i'll give you one you don't know about... Bert Jones. Jones would be in the same conversations with Brees and Manning and Rodgers if he played today. the reason you don't know about Jones is because his career was shortened by injuries in an era where QBs were hit repeatedly and legally. however, i think only Peyton Manning would have a chance to be an elite QB back in those days, and that's not because he's such a better passer... it's because his work ethic would have helped him tremendously back then.

BroncoBeavis
02-06-2012, 11:17 AM
I can't bash the decision, but that was a terrible underthrow.

Gronkowski (even hurt) would've easily caught that for a TD if Brady had enough arm to get it to the end zone because Gronkowski was open.

Don't think anyone would say Brady's strength is throwing on the run. But it was 1st down and the Pats had the lead in the 4th.

Houshyamama
02-06-2012, 11:29 AM
Elway
Marino
Favre
Montana
P. Manning
Brady

Take your pick, all of them all time greats in their own way. I don't hate on Brady or Belichick, have a ton of respect for both. Peyton is the smartest QB to ever play the game. Montana just won. Elway was the greatest competitor and physical specimen. Marino may have been the best passer. I don't think Brady can really claim to have been the best at anything, but he deserves to be on this list, 3 super bowls and passing records galore. You know he'd be your favorite player if he was a Bronco.

Mile High Mojoe
02-06-2012, 11:31 AM
Top 5

1. Elway
2. Bradshaw
3. Staubach
4.Montana
5. Brady

WolfpackGuy
02-06-2012, 11:31 AM
Don't think anyone would say Brady's strength is throwing on the run. But it was 1st down and the Pats had the lead in the 4th.

Yeah, he's very awkward when moving out of the pocket.

The real killers for the Pats were the 2nd and 3rd down passing calls on their following drive that kept them from grinding the clock as far down as as they could have.

I think there was right around 4 minutes left at that point, and those incomplete passes stopped the clock which was huge because the Giants only had one timeout left.

bendog
02-06-2012, 11:31 AM
Jmo, I never liked the guy, and it's come to light that his personality issues were driven by chemical imbalance, but Terry Bradshaw could throw the rock. but I agree with what you guys are saying.

Willynowei
02-06-2012, 11:39 AM
Brady threw three interceptions in his last 2 games and i'd be i'd be remiss if i didn't bring up the saftey he gave up due to her fear of contact.


.

He also threw a few touchdowns.

Not easy to play perfect when the best defenses in the NFL know you're going to pass just about every down.

gunns
02-06-2012, 12:51 PM
Across all eras? Maybe not.

Graham
Montana
Starr
Elway
Baugh
Staubach
Bradshaw
Aikman
Moon

At best I would have him number 9ish ahead of Favre, Marino, and Pluckett.

Bradshaw? Aikman? Bradshaw was the Trent Dilfer of the Steelers and Aikman didn't have to do anything with the weapons he had.

Some of the same can be said for Brady. He should get down on his hands and knees and thank the Lord for that OL and the multiple weapons he has to throw to that makes it so difficult for defenses to defend. When I saw him throw his tantrum in the 2005 AFC divisional game against Lynch I knew the guy was a phony. I think Gisele wanted people to pray for Tommy to win because she knew what she'd have to put up with if he lost, a spoiled rotten little self entitled brat.

BroncoBeavis
02-06-2012, 12:58 PM
He also threw a few touchdowns.

Not easy to play perfect when the best defenses in the NFL know you're going to pass just about every down.

Not what I've been told. If you're doing exactly what the D expects, that's called good game planning. Execution is the only thing that matters.

Mile High Mojoe
02-06-2012, 01:11 PM
Across all eras? Maybe not.

Unitis(forgot him, doh!)
Graham
Montana
Starr
Elway
Baugh
Staubach
Bradshaw
Aikman
Moon

At best I would have him number 9ish ahead of Favre, Marino, and Pluckett.

Nice list but Aikman doesn't belong on it, I was shocked he went into the HOF. Johnny U, Graham, Starr and Baugh while great in there era's can't compare to the other modern era QB's on your list in my opinion. Moon played a long time and put up stats but never won anything, so he doesn't belong in the top 10.

Garcia Bronco
02-06-2012, 01:23 PM
Nice list but Aikman doesn't belong on it, I was shocked he went into the HOF. Johnny U, Graham, Starr and Baugh while great in there era's can't compare to the other modern era QB's on your list in my opinion. Moon played a long time and put up stats but never won anything, so he doesn't belong in the top 10.

I disagree. Aikman was the best QB in the game for a olsid half decade while having his colleages with names like Elway, Montana, Young, and so on. He also had all the athletic skill Brady just doesn't have. He was a statue back there; but there was no one better in the pocket. JU, OG, and SB are just championship machines playing in a true era of football. Moon has passed for more yards than anyone as a pro accounting for both leagues in an era when it was harder to pass than today. Same can be said for JU, OG, AND SB. I put them all ahead of Brady.

Willynowei
02-06-2012, 01:25 PM
Not what I've been told. If you're doing exactly what the D expects, that's called good game planning. Execution is the only thing that matters.

What?

BroncoMan4ever
02-06-2012, 01:28 PM
i stand by my belief that Brady is this generations Montana.

an average QB playing with an extemely talented team with the best coach in the game currently.

Arkie
02-06-2012, 03:21 PM
Tom Brady is a great QB, but there have been too many greater QBs to fit him into the top 10 with Baugh, Graham, Layne, Tittle, Unitas, Tarkenton, Fouts, Montana, Young, Elway, Marino, Moon, Manning, and probably a few others that have been mentioned in this thread.

Tombstone RJ
02-06-2012, 03:26 PM
Tom Brady is a great QB, but there have been too many greater QBs to fit him into the top 10 with Baugh, Graham, Layne, Tittle, Unitas, Tarkenton, Fouts, Montana, Young, Elway, Marino, Moon, Manning, and probably a few others that have been mentioned in this thread.

but Brady has 3 rings and Fouts does not have any. You have to count that too, not just his numbers but his championships.

I'm all for the Brady hate, but let's be honest here. Brady is a top 10 all time NFL QB. Just saying...

gunns
02-06-2012, 04:02 PM
but Brady has 3 rings and Fouts does not have any. You have to count that too, not just his numbers but his championships.

I'm all for the Brady hate, but let's be honest here. Brady is a top 10 all time NFL QB. Just saying...

I do agree Brady is in the top 10 but Trent Dilfer, Brad Johnson and Jeff Hostetler have 1 and Fouts has none and I would put Fouts in the top 10 before any of them. No I don't think Fouts belongs in the top 10 but he was a very good QB and being successful depends on 21 other guys too.

extralife
02-06-2012, 05:26 PM
Unitas
Elway
Kelly
Marino
Staubach
Aikman?
Theisman?
Starr
Favre
Tarkenton
Young
Montana
Warner?
Bradshaw
Graham
Stabler?
Pumpkinhead?
Fouts
Dawson?
Bob Griese
Gabriel?
Moon?

i think we can find 10 more deserving just on this list.

if you are dumb as a rock, then yes.

extralife
02-06-2012, 05:28 PM
and just to give it a go, here's the top ten in not-really-but-sort-of order:

Montana
Brady
Unitas
Graham
Elway
Manning
Baugh
Staubach
Young
Favre

Marino is 11

Bronco Rob
02-06-2012, 05:29 PM
Brady is not top ten he was one of the better quarterbacks of the decade nothing more.

Gort
02-06-2012, 05:32 PM
and just to give it a go, here's the top ten in not-really-but-sort-of order:

Montana
Brady
Unitas
Graham
Elway
Manning
Baugh
Staubach
Young
Favre


sung to the tune of the Sesame Street song

...one of these things is not like the others ...one of these things just doesn't belong.

extralife
02-06-2012, 06:00 PM
I'm flattered you think I got 9 right

broncosteven
02-06-2012, 09:13 PM
None of Brady's SB's have been decided by more than 4 points and none of his SB wins came by more than 3.

I find it odd that a team that puts up 40+ on teams regularly throughout the season cannot blow teams out in the SB.

extralife
02-06-2012, 09:16 PM
None of Brady's SB's have been decided by more than 4 points and none of his SB wins came by more than 3.

I find it odd that a team that puts up 40+ on teams regularly throughout the season cannot blow teams out in the SB.

so which of the six possible ways to show how retarded this post is would you like me to use

Bronco Yoda
02-06-2012, 09:27 PM
I agree that he's not the greatest, but this list is way too long. Warner? GTFO

Yep

Even Warer>Brady

Brady is a good system QB. Right place at the right time.

Dedhed
02-06-2012, 09:31 PM
Yep

Even Warer>Brady

Brady is a good system QB. Right place at the right time.

lulz

Wes Mantooth
02-06-2012, 09:31 PM
Lame. I thought this was a thread about Brady Quinn. Lame

Circle Orange
02-07-2012, 10:44 PM
The "Greatest Ever" group gets more crowded each year.

Every fragging three years there's another so called "greatest ever." I guarantee you by 2015 we won't be hearing Brady's name...the media will anoit someone else.

I always thought Brady was the ultimate system qb (which is usually thought of as a minus). He blends in seamlessly with the team and what BellyChick wants to do. He doesn't get touched, and stands back there all day and goes through his progressions. Hell, he should be throwing 10 touchdowns a game as much time as he gets. Drew Bledsoe got that first team close to the Superbowl, all Brady did was handoff and stay out of the way. Yet, he was voted MVP (it took half an hour for the committee to decide after the game). Why? Because he was the qb. Nobody even knew who the dude was at the time. But its added gloss to his record.

His weaknesses

Can't extend plays...if it isn't precision and scripted, it's over. Not especially instinctual with pressure and sight recognition. Clutzy and lumbering when forced to move, not accurate unless he's standing still. Pundits try to say he "dragged" a bad defense. Really? Yards wise they were at the bottom, but in points allowed, they were middle of the pack. Good enough with a strong offense these days. Besides, when you have all day to throw it doesn't matter.

And isn't he supposed to "elevate" people and all those other cliches we always hear?

His career reminds me of Favre's...hot early, cool late. The whole body of work will get him in the hall, but the obsession with making him a golden idol is weird. I think the fact that he was a skinny, slow, weak armed qb in college (6th rounder)seems to buy him underdog points with the media. I never heard so many excuses after the Super Bowl...any other "great" qb would've gotten fried.

Contrary to popular belief he isn't hot, either. Just good looking and takes a nice picture. Not the same thing. Not unless you get turned on by a stick. And enough about the "supermodel beauty" of his wife. THe picture Espn showed looked like Skip Bayless in drag. Hilarious! Just sayin.'

Some people will holler he's the greatest. Sounds like a lot of hoo to me.

Circle Orange
02-07-2012, 10:50 PM
Mel Kiper said that if Kelly, Marino and Elway were playing in this NFL they'd hold the league hostage and score 60 points a game.

Sho nuff. Anytime 400 yard games are passe, you know something's screwy.

Circle Orange
02-07-2012, 10:53 PM
No offense but neither one of those player had half of Elway's abilites. Young played with HOF talent so did Tarkenton. Give Elway those 49er & Viking teams and he'd have more rings than an oak tree.



:thumbs:

Howie Long said if the Raiders had gotten Elway when he was playing, they might have had 6 or seven championships.

BroncoBuff
02-07-2012, 11:19 PM
Hasn't won a SB since spygate. NE is a team in decline.

Decline? They went 16-3 and were a few ticks away from winning the Super Bowl.

lonestar
02-07-2012, 11:37 PM
Elway is the greatest of all time. Brady is in the conversation though. You are off on his throwing. He led the best offense in NFL history. He has been extremely clutch. That team only had four games this regular season where they didn't score over 30 points. That is 12 games of over 30 points. 15 games of over 20 points. This is very impressive. Brady also isn't done yet.

The non-comeback wasn't on him. He made a couple impressive throws that were dropped at the end.

Brady is perhaps the best QB playing today..

Give him the supporting cast (defense) that Eli has Same with recievers and there is no doubt in my mind who would have won that game.

Hell had Gronkowski been 100% there is little doubt they would have won..

ol#7
02-08-2012, 01:09 AM
Decline? They went 16-3 and were a few ticks away from winning the Super Bowl.

Decline in the same way the 2005 Broncos were in decline.

New England was not an impressive team this year and is not the same team that ran off those pre-spygate titles. They won a weak AFC this year and got lucky at home against the Ravens to do it (another aging team). They beat 1 team (the Ravens) with a winning record all year. You are giving them too much credit for feasting on an easy schedule and having a clear path in the playoffs.

BroncoBuff
02-08-2012, 01:21 AM
I rank QBs two ways ...

1) PURE PHYSICAL SKILLS: Steve Young clearly. Challenge me, I dare you.
2) PURE WINNERS: Tom Brady and Joe Montana ... but is Peyton's brother making a run?

ol#7
02-08-2012, 01:37 AM
I rank QBs two ways ...

1) PURE PHYSICAL SKILLS: Steve Young clearly. Challenge me, I dare you.
2) PURE WINNERS: Tom Brady and Joe Montana ... but is Peyton's brother making a run?

John Elway was a physical freak. He and Young used to always get mentioned together when they were talking about Young. I think Tarkenton is in that class as well, but he had a much weaker arm.

Eli is an amalgam. He as some physical skills. He is not that bad of an athlete, but not on the Elway/Young class. He is turning into Mr. clutch, but I think he has to make it back at some point to join the list of top QB's. Right now eli is on Par with Kurt Warner.

Bronco Rob
02-08-2012, 02:57 AM
I rank QBs two ways ...

1) PURE PHYSICAL SKILLS: Steve Young clearly. Challenge me, I dare you.
2) PURE WINNERS: Tom Brady and Joe Montana ... but is Peyton's brother making a run?



The debate over who is the greatest QB of all time will go on forever…and with good reason. There are so many factors that go into who is the BEST at anything. And then when you consider that comparing generations is almost impossible to do, the idea of saying without a doubt who is the best is really difficult.


But here is our case for John Elway being the greatest QB of all time. Of course the Montana, Marino, Brady, and Steve Young supporters will disagree, but I think we can make a pretty compelling case for Elway being the best.


First let’s start out with pure physical talent. There have not been many, if any, QB’s that had the total physical package that John Elway had, especially in the first 10 years of his career. He had an incredible arm, probably the best of all time. Not just an arm for throwing the ball a long ways…lots of QB’s can do that. But Elway could make throws that most other QB’s could only dream about.


He was a very gifted scrambler and runner. Not in the Steve Young mode, but he could move, elude people, and at times outrun most of the defensive players on the field. He was also very physically tough…which is a good thing when you consider some of the offensive lines he played behind.


So when it comes to pure physical ability as far as the combination of arm strength and mobility…he was a bit of a freak.


But physical prowess is not the only thing that makes QB’s great. Look at Joe Montana, he was a skinny, wimpy looking guy that looked like he belonged behind a desk crunching numbers and we all know how good he was.


Elway had the toughness, the drive, and cool to be great and he showed it on a regular basis. At the time of his retirement here is where he stood among the all time NFL greats:


1. 148 wins as a starting QB
2. 47 game winning or game tying fourth quarter drives
3. The only QB to take a team to FIVE Super Bowls
4. 50,000 career passing yards and 3000 career rushing yards
5. Seven consecutive 3000 yards passing and 200 yards rushing
6. Nine time Pro Bowl selection
7. Three time All Pro selection
8. NFL MVP in 1987
9. Super Bowl 33 MVP
0. AFC Offensive MVP in 1993


And of course he was a first ballot Hall of Famer. Needless to say those stats are amazing and put Elway in the argument of greatest QB of all time right off the bat. But stats don’t make you great and win championships. Look at Dan Marino for the best example of that.


What Elway did was WIN. He willed his teams to win. He made plays at crucial moments that would have most NFL QB’s wanting to run off the field and hide. He was the BEST when the chips were down…and here is the key, HE DID IT WITH AVERAGE TALENT AROUND HIM.


He did not have Jerry Rice, John Taylor, Brent Jones, Roger Craig, real good offensive lines, and good defenses to help him out. He did NOT play in a system that allowed him to take full advantage of his incredible talents.


What John Elway did with AVERAGE, to slightly above talent, was just amazing. Take a look at the teams he beat to go to the first three Super Bowls. Those teams had more talent….except at one position. Dan Marino did not play with great talent most of his career but he surely played with better coaching and he surely had as much talent around him as Elway had…but Elway is the one that went to FIVE Super Bowls, not Marino. Marino went to ONE.


Why? Because when the chips were down and a play needed to be made Elway usually made it. Most NFL fans know of The Drive. Quite possibly the GREATEST AFC Championship drive of all time. This is the type of thing Elway did on a regular basis…he made plays!


If you had put Joe Montana behind those Denver Bronco offensive lines he would have gotten killed. Let’s see how great Montana would have been in the Dan Reeves system throwing to Vance Johnson, Ricky Nattiel, and Mark Jackson. Let’s see how great Montana would have been handing the ball of to Gerald Wilhite, Steve Sewell, and the rest of the mediocre Denver RB’s.


If you had put John Elway on the 49′ers from the beginning he would probably have won four to six Super Bowls. What would Elway have been like throwing to guys like Jerry Rice, John Taylor, and Brent Jones. What would Elway have been like if he had a good running game to support him? Well we know the answer to that…Denver developed a running game with Terrel Davis and look at what happened. They won two straight Super Bowls.


What would Elway have been like in a system that made it pretty easy to find open receivers like the West Coast offense the 49′ers ran? He would have been totally unstoppable. He could make every throw Montana could make and then about 20 others.


Montana, Marino, and Steve Young were great. But John Elway is in a class by himself. It is a shame that Elway had to play his first 10 years in a system that almost made no sense. Is it a coincidence that AFTER Dan Reeves left that John Elway’s numbers greatly improved and he won two Super Bowls? We don’t think so.


The bottom line in all sports is winning. And no one did it better than Elway, and again the key is that he did it with a supporting cast that is not much to talk about. True, Elway did not win Super Bowls until he got a good supporting cast…but he took THREE teams to Super Bowls that probably had no business being there, and no other QB can say that.


As far as the present day QB’s. Yes, you have to look at Aaron Rodgers, Drew Brees, Peyton Manning, and the incredibly bizarre Brett Farve. Rodgers is GREAT. Manning is GREAT. And Brett Farve has been great at times. Brett Farve has gone to two Super Bowls and won one. Manning has gone to one Super Bowl and won it. He has had some AMAZING offensive talent around him.


One final point…comparing passing stats is useless. The game has changed. The passing game is so much more wide open now than when Marino, Montana, and Elway played. What you have to consider is winning and getting your team to the Super Bowl and you have to consider the talent around the QB.


If you take those things into consideration we think John Elway should receive the title…The GREATEST QB OF ALL TIME. It is really hard to argue against him.

Gort
02-08-2012, 08:55 AM
The debate over who is the greatest QB of all time will go on forever…and with good reason. There are so many factors that go into who is the BEST at anything. And then when you consider that comparing generations is almost impossible to do, the idea of saying without a doubt who is the best is really difficult.


But here is our case for John Elway being the greatest QB of all time. Of course the Montana, Marino, Brady, and Steve Young supporters will disagree, but I think we can make a pretty compelling case for Elway being the best.


First let’s start out with pure physical talent. There have not been many, if any, QB’s that had the total physical package that John Elway had, especially in the first 10 years of his career. He had an incredible arm, probably the best of all time. Not just an arm for throwing the ball a long ways…lots of QB’s can do that. But Elway could make throws that most other QB’s could only dream about.


He was a very gifted scrambler and runner. Not in the Steve Young mode, but he could move, elude people, and at times outrun most of the defensive players on the field. He was also very physically tough…which is a good thing when you consider some of the offensive lines he played behind.


So when it comes to pure physical ability as far as the combination of arm strength and mobility…he was a bit of a freak.


But physical prowess is not the only thing that makes QB’s great. Look at Joe Montana, he was a skinny, wimpy looking guy that looked like he belonged behind a desk crunching numbers and we all know how good he was.


Elway had the toughness, the drive, and cool to be great and he showed it on a regular basis. At the time of his retirement here is where he stood among the all time NFL greats:


1. 148 wins as a starting QB
2. 47 game winning or game tying fourth quarter drives
3. The only QB to take a team to FIVE Super Bowls
4. 50,000 career passing yards and 3000 career rushing yards
5. Seven consecutive 3000 yards passing and 200 yards rushing
6. Nine time Pro Bowl selection
7. Three time All Pro selection
8. NFL MVP in 1987
9. Super Bowl 33 MVP
0. AFC Offensive MVP in 1993


And of course he was a first ballot Hall of Famer. Needless to say those stats are amazing and put Elway in the argument of greatest QB of all time right off the bat. But stats don’t make you great and win championships. Look at Dan Marino for the best example of that.


What Elway did was WIN. He willed his teams to win. He made plays at crucial moments that would have most NFL QB’s wanting to run off the field and hide. He was the BEST when the chips were down…and here is the key, HE DID IT WITH AVERAGE TALENT AROUND HIM.


He did not have Jerry Rice, John Taylor, Brent Jones, Roger Craig, real good offensive lines, and good defenses to help him out. He did NOT play in a system that allowed him to take full advantage of his incredible talents.


What John Elway did with AVERAGE, to slightly above talent, was just amazing. Take a look at the teams he beat to go to the first three Super Bowls. Those teams had more talent….except at one position. Dan Marino did not play with great talent most of his career but he surely played with better coaching and he surely had as much talent around him as Elway had…but Elway is the one that went to FIVE Super Bowls, not Marino. Marino went to ONE.


Why? Because when the chips were down and a play needed to be made Elway usually made it. Most NFL fans know of The Drive. Quite possibly the GREATEST AFC Championship drive of all time. This is the type of thing Elway did on a regular basis…he made plays!


If you had put Joe Montana behind those Denver Bronco offensive lines he would have gotten killed. Let’s see how great Montana would have been in the Dan Reeves system throwing to Vance Johnson, Ricky Nattiel, and Mark Jackson. Let’s see how great Montana would have been handing the ball of to Gerald Wilhite, Steve Sewell, and the rest of the mediocre Denver RB’s.


If you had put John Elway on the 49′ers from the beginning he would probably have won four to six Super Bowls. What would Elway have been like throwing to guys like Jerry Rice, John Taylor, and Brent Jones. What would Elway have been like if he had a good running game to support him? Well we know the answer to that…Denver developed a running game with Terrel Davis and look at what happened. They won two straight Super Bowls.


What would Elway have been like in a system that made it pretty easy to find open receivers like the West Coast offense the 49′ers ran? He would have been totally unstoppable. He could make every throw Montana could make and then about 20 others.


Montana, Marino, and Steve Young were great. But John Elway is in a class by himself. It is a shame that Elway had to play his first 10 years in a system that almost made no sense. Is it a coincidence that AFTER Dan Reeves left that John Elway’s numbers greatly improved and he won two Super Bowls? We don’t think so.


The bottom line in all sports is winning. And no one did it better than Elway, and again the key is that he did it with a supporting cast that is not much to talk about. True, Elway did not win Super Bowls until he got a good supporting cast…but he took THREE teams to Super Bowls that probably had no business being there, and no other QB can say that.


As far as the present day QB’s. Yes, you have to look at Aaron Rodgers, Drew Brees, Peyton Manning, and the incredibly bizarre Brett Farve. Rodgers is GREAT. Manning is GREAT. And Brett Farve has been great at times. Brett Farve has gone to two Super Bowls and won one. Manning has gone to one Super Bowl and won it. He has had some AMAZING offensive talent around him.


One final point…comparing passing stats is useless. The game has changed. The passing game is so much more wide open now than when Marino, Montana, and Elway played. What you have to consider is winning and getting your team to the Super Bowl and you have to consider the talent around the QB.


If you take those things into consideration we think John Elway should receive the title…The GREATEST QB OF ALL TIME. It is really hard to argue against him.

Safeway called. they are out of orange Kool-aid. Bronco Rob drank it all.

let's be impartial for a moment... Elway was often just as frustrating with his play as he was spectacular. i remember ALOT of 3-and-outs. i'd have a difficult time saying the Elway was "hands down" the best ever with a straight face. top 5? sure. but the very best? i don't know and i certainly couldn't prove it.

Bronco Rob
02-08-2012, 09:02 AM
<TABLE><TBODY><TR><TD class=storytitle colSpan=3>I saw this story back in 2005 and can't forget it. Basically for their time, the only guys Elway could realistically be compared to are Marino and Montana and those who came before. This is the time honored Montana v. Elway debate... most people acknowledge John over Marino since Marino never got lucky after the big dance


Elway v. Montana - The Definitive Answer
</TD></TR><TR><TD class=primaryimage vAlign=top>http://media.scout.com/Media/Image/15/157730.jpg
John Elway
</TD><TD noWrap width=3></TD><TD vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=4 width="60%" bgColor=#f5f5f5 border=0><TBODY><TR vAlign=top><TD vAlign=center noWrap>By Jason Looney (javascript:location.href='http://search.scout.com/a.z?s=101&p=4&c=1&search=1&sskey=%22' + escape('Jason Looney') + '%22&sssiteid=101';)
Broncos Update Columnist
Posted Nov 11, 2005
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</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>


Who was better? The Denver Broncos' John Elway or the San Franciso 49ers' Joe Montana. Broncos Update Columnist Jason Looney settles the argument once and for all.
</TD></TR><TR><TD colSpan=3>
On the list of the 100 greatest football players our world has ever known (maintained by a prestigious sports publication), Joe Montana is ranked 3rd. John Elway, meanwhile, is 16th.
On the list of the 100 greatest athletes of the last century (maintained by the world's largest sports television network), Joe Montana is ranked 25th. John Elway, meanwhile… isn't listed??
Wait a second. This can't be right, can it? You mean to tell me Elway's not even on the list??
John Elway is not on the list. He's not listed. At all. Dan "World Champion" Marino made the list, but Elway didn't. Greg Louganis has a spot, but Elway doesn't. Two different jockeys made the list. As did three horses. Yes, horses.
Just to be clear: This list had room for non-human entities that we gamble on, but not for John Elway.
This leaves us with two options. On the one hand, we could leave town right now and strangle, to death, everyone who has ever worked for the company that made this list. Or, we could stay in our seats and perform our own analysis of the situation.
While we shouldn't be too hasty in ruling out the first option, I suppose we should spend a bit of time on the second. (At least for now...)
Comparing athletes is a dodgy undertaking because, really, how do we do it? In my opinion, the fairest way is to ask, "If we could step outside of time to assemble a Field of Dreams intramural squad, who should we pick?" This makes more sense to me than asking, "Who had a better career statistically?" which seems to be the only concern of these brainless and spineless (and soon to be oxygen-less) list makers.
So let's resolve this Elway v. Montana debate, once and for all. This type of discussion can, at times, resemble a religious war, so let's break it up as best we can into reasonable and objective categories. And let's keep score in units of seven and three, naturally, since God prefers these numbers.

Here we go:
Bias
Disclaimer: I was born in Colorado, I live in Colorado, and I've been known to drink ketchup on gameday so that even my urine is Denver Broncos Orange. While I doubt this will affect my judgment in this matter, we should probably spot Montana a couple of scores right off the bat. You know, in the name of fairness.
Score: Montana 10, Elway 0

Statistics
Joe Montana had a brilliant career. He led his team to four Super Bowl victories, including the trouncing of Elway's Broncos in 1990. He was named the MVP in all but one of those games, and in that contest he led a 92–yard drive late in the fourth quarter to win the championship. He retired with a quarterback rating of 92.3 and, while he threw his fair share of interceptions in the playoffs, Joe Montana threw exactly zero interceptions in four Super Bowls.
Elway's numbers are impressive, but less so. He was the only quarterback to start five Super Bowls, including two victories and one MVP award, but he lost the other three contests badly and, as such, is on the wrong end of many Super Bowl records. His career quarterback rating was an unimpressive 79.9, although he did end up being more durable than Joe. He retired with more completions, yards, touchdowns, and wins, despite the fact that he did more scrambling and took more punishment. In fact, he is ranked either first, second, or third in all major passing categories, while Montana is eighth and ninth.
But Montana's efficiency — especially in big games — was incredible. Enough so that I think he deserves another touchdown.
Score: Montana 17, Elway 0

Coaching
This is where the analysis gets more… nuanced. While statistics are indeed important, professional football is a game with 22 players on the field and several dozen other players (and countless coaches) on the sidelines. When trying to decide which quarterback to pick for our intramural team in the sky, we need to look behind the numbers. We need to ask things like, "What if this guy had played for another team?" And, "How did his coaches do with other players in his position?" And, "Hasn't history shown that Dan Reeves knew more about licking footballs than coaching football?"
Which brings me to: Bill Walsh vs. Dan Reeves. Walsh was the father of the modern offense; Reeves was hawking blood pressure medication while still "coaching" an NFL team. Bill Walsh is revered to this day; Reeves is but a bad taste in the mouths of numerous teams. Admittedly, Walsh probably gets more credit than he deserves for the so-called west coast offense, but it's hard to deny that his offensive schemes were vastly superior to Reeves' who, inexplicably, never structured his offense around Elway. Instead he would run his famous "four yards and a cloud of dust" offense for 58 minutes, then turn it over to John for the last two.
How bad can a coach be for a player? With Reeves at the helm, John Elway's quarterback rating averaged 72.9. Post-Reeves, it averaged 89.1 — a sixteen point swing. The improvement came practically overnight. The first year after Reeves, Elway threw for over 4000 yards (something Montana never did), 25 touchdowns, and a rating of 92.8.
The recent tailspin of Denver's current coach, Mike Shanahan, is also telling. During the 1996–1998 seasons Shanahan was considered a mastermind who always kept one step ahead of the competition. Since Elway left, however, he's had Brian Griese (http://den.scout.com/a.z?s=101&p=8&c=1&nid=1988067) posting a 100+ QB rating, scrubs and rookies putting up 1500-yard rushing seasons, defensive units ranked second/third in the league, Clinton Portis (http://den.scout.com/a.z?s=101&p=8&c=1&nid=1806802) looking like the love child of Barry Sanders and Walter Payton, and… zero playoff victories.
So, Elway made it to three Super Bowls with horrible coaching and won two Super Bowls with decent coaching. Montana had the advantage of spending the majority of his career within a brilliant offensive scheme.
Touchdown, John.
Score: Montana 17, Elway 7

Supporting Cast
On the first list I mentioned above, Jerry Rice is ranked as the 2nd greatest player in the history of football. On the ESPN list, he's just two spots behind Montana. Rice has proven himself time and again with numerous quarterbacks, and seemingly everyone regards him as the best receiver to ever play the game.
In 1989 (the season Montana and Elway met in the Super Bowl), San Francisco's roster also included:
* Ronnie Lott
* Roger Craig
* John Taylor
* Steve Young
* Charles Haley
* Bill Romanowski
* Brent Jones
* Matt Millen
* Tom Rathman
* Bubba Paris

Meanwhile, John Elway had:
* Steve Atwater
* Karl Mecklenberg
* Dennis Smith
* Ricky… Somebody
* A guy named Vance, I think? (Or was it Steve?)
* Hey, was Bobby Humphrey the guy who married Whitney Houston?
* Is the Super Bowl XXIV blowout starting to make more sense to ANYONE???
So Montana played with a handful of future Hall-of-Famers, including the greatest wide receiver to have walked our planet. John Elway played with guys like the "Three Amigos," all three of whom were out of football within a year or two of leaving the Broncos for other teams.
Field goal, John.
Score: Montana 17, Elway 10

Head-to-Head Competition
Off the top of my head, I can remember two big games featuring the quarterbacks. The first was the lopsided Super Bowl, the second was the infamous "whoever gets the ball last is going to win this thing" Monday night game. Montana won both match-ups.
While this is certainly a worthwhile category, I don't think we can place too much emphasis on it since there are obvious "Coaching" and "Supporting Cast" elements that come into play. Also, I haven't been able to find a comprehensive list of their meetings, so we should probably stick with a field goal on this one.
Score: Montana 20, Elway 10

Name
'John Elway' is a pretty tough name — it brings to mind John Wayne and all — but 'Joe Montana' takes the cake. (Especially if you have never seen his mamma's-boy face.)
Score: Montana 23, Elway 10

Number
As we discussed earlier, God likes the number 7. A lot. So if you've somehow made it outside of time to pick an intramural football team, you might want to take this into consideration. Montana's numbers (16 and 19) might have been shout-outs to guys like Blanda and Unitas, but it's important to keep in mind that neither of these people is God.
But, leaving God's feelings out of this for a moment, let me ask: Which is a cooler number for a quarterback? 7, or 16? Which number inspires more fear in opposing defenses? 7, or 19? Do you think it's coincidence that "seven" sounds like "heaven" and "sixteen" sounds like "sissy?" I don't.
Score: Montana 23, Elway 13

Arm
Do I really need to say anything here?
Of the two quarterbacks, only one had receivers spending their off-seasons with machines rifling footballs at 100 miles-per-hour. This same player threw a football 65 yards on the fly, in high school, and was drafted by the New York Yankees coming out of college. (Hint: It's not the player whose name rhymes with Dough Bontana.)
Look, John Elway could make any throw on the field, even if he was falling down or running against the grain. When plays broke down, his receivers were instructed to go long. According to Rick Reilly, players from other teams would beg him to throw them a 40–yard out during Pro Bowl week, just so they could experience catching it. Pat Summerall called him "the master of the inconceivable pass thrown to the unreachable spot." And I'm pretty sure Pat said that before he went senile.
Let's move on.
Score: Montana 23, Elway 20

Legs and Athleticism
We probably shouldn't weigh it too heavily but, all other things being equal, I would take the more mobile of any two quarterbacks. Joe Montana had decent feet, but Elway was the master of the escape. At times, other teams were afraid to blitz him since he did his best work when he was running for his life. While he never reached the same level as The Player Formerly Known as Ron Mexico, he was definitely a better runner than Montana.
Field goal, John.
Score: Montana 23, Elway 23

Leadership
Well, it's all come down to this. The score is tied and we've saved one of the most important categories for last.
When discussing the relative merits of quarterbacks, leadership ability is, obviously, critical. A good leader will make everyone on their team better, and both Elway and Montana had this quality in spades. A good leader will inspire confidence in their teammates and fans -- both players did this, too.
But John Elway was a better team leader than anyone. He would stomp the sidelines and goad members of the defense. He would chastise receivers in the huddle when they dropped his passes. He would exhort his offensive line to play this down harder than they'd played any down in their lives. And he backed it all up by engineering more comeback victories than any quarterback in NFL history, including several in the postseason.
In Cleveland, he's known for "The Drive." In Houston, he's known for his fourth down heroics. In Super Bowl lore, he's known for his helicopter dive on third down. And in Marty Schottenheimer's therapist's office, he's known as "The One About Whom We Do Not Speak."
Joe Montana was a cool-headed field general, for sure, but it's hard to look back at the 49ers dynasty and say that none of it would have happened without him. In fact, Montana played his last few years in Kansas City because San Francisco figured they were better off with Steve Young, who went on to win a Super Bowl of his own.
Elway, on the other hand, WAS the Denver Broncos. His sheer willpower and determination led his teams — and the entire state of Colorado — to heights they would have otherwise never reached.
In summary, these two guys are arguably the best quarterbacks to ever play the game. Each ended their career with an impressive list of records and statistical achievements. Both undeniably, were champions. But Elway was better. Final Score: Montana 23, Elway 26
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:thumbs:

Tombstone RJ
02-08-2012, 09:18 AM
I think another fair comparison between Elway and Montana is this: If Elway was on those 49ers teams, does the team still win SBs? I say absolutely yes. On the other hand if Montana was the QB of those Broncos teams in the 1980s does the team do any better, that is, do they even win a playoff game? I don't think so, and I think Montana would probably have been killed physically in the process.

Rohirrim
02-08-2012, 09:21 AM
I think another fair comparison between Elway and Montana is this: If Elway was on those 49ers teams, does the team still win SBs? I say absolutely yes. On the other hand if Montana was the QB of those Broncos teams in the 1980s does the team do any better, that is, do they even win a playoff game? I don't think so, and I think Montana would probably have been killed physically in the process.

Good point.

Gort
02-08-2012, 09:25 AM
<TABLE><TBODY><TR><TD class=storytitle colSpan=3>I saw this story back in 2005 and can't forget it. Basically for their time, the only guys Elway could realistically be compared to are Marino and Montana and those who came before. This is the time honored Montana v. Elway debate... most people acknowledge John over Marino since Marino never got lucky after the big dance


Elway v. Montana - The Definitive Answer
</TD></TR><TR><TD class=primaryimage vAlign=top>http://media.scout.com/Media/Image/15/157730.jpg
John Elway
</TD><TD noWrap width=3></TD><TD vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=4 width="60%" bgColor=#f5f5f5 border=0><TBODY><TR vAlign=top><TD vAlign=center noWrap>By Jason Looney (javascript:location.href='http://search.scout.com/a.z?s=101&p=4&c=1&search=1&sskey=%22' + escape('Jason Looney') + '%22&sssiteid=101';)
Broncos Update Columnist
Posted Nov 11, 2005
</TD><TD noWrap>
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>


Who was better? The Denver Broncos' John Elway or the San Franciso 49ers' Joe Montana. Broncos Update Columnist Jason Looney settles the argument once and for all.
</TD></TR><TR><TD colSpan=3>
On the list of the 100 greatest football players our world has ever known (maintained by a prestigious sports publication), Joe Montana is ranked 3rd. John Elway, meanwhile, is 16th.
On the list of the 100 greatest athletes of the last century (maintained by the world's largest sports television network), Joe Montana is ranked 25th. John Elway, meanwhile… isn't listed??
Wait a second. This can't be right, can it? You mean to tell me Elway's not even on the list??
John Elway is not on the list. He's not listed. At all. Dan "World Champion" Marino made the list, but Elway didn't. Greg Louganis has a spot, but Elway doesn't. Two different jockeys made the list. As did three horses. Yes, horses.
Just to be clear: This list had room for non-human entities that we gamble on, but not for John Elway.
This leaves us with two options. On the one hand, we could leave town right now and strangle, to death, everyone who has ever worked for the company that made this list. Or, we could stay in our seats and perform our own analysis of the situation.
While we shouldn't be too hasty in ruling out the first option, I suppose we should spend a bit of time on the second. (At least for now...)
Comparing athletes is a dodgy undertaking because, really, how do we do it? In my opinion, the fairest way is to ask, "If we could step outside of time to assemble a Field of Dreams intramural squad, who should we pick?" This makes more sense to me than asking, "Who had a better career statistically?" which seems to be the only concern of these brainless and spineless (and soon to be oxygen-less) list makers.
So let's resolve this Elway v. Montana debate, once and for all. This type of discussion can, at times, resemble a religious war, so let's break it up as best we can into reasonable and objective categories. And let's keep score in units of seven and three, naturally, since God prefers these numbers.

Here we go:
Bias
Disclaimer: I was born in Colorado, I live in Colorado, and I've been known to drink ketchup on gameday so that even my urine is Denver Broncos Orange. While I doubt this will affect my judgment in this matter, we should probably spot Montana a couple of scores right off the bat. You know, in the name of fairness.
Score: Montana 10, Elway 0

Statistics
Joe Montana had a brilliant career. He led his team to four Super Bowl victories, including the trouncing of Elway's Broncos in 1990. He was named the MVP in all but one of those games, and in that contest he led a 92–yard drive late in the fourth quarter to win the championship. He retired with a quarterback rating of 92.3 and, while he threw his fair share of interceptions in the playoffs, Joe Montana threw exactly zero interceptions in four Super Bowls.
Elway's numbers are impressive, but less so. He was the only quarterback to start five Super Bowls, including two victories and one MVP award, but he lost the other three contests badly and, as such, is on the wrong end of many Super Bowl records. His career quarterback rating was an unimpressive 79.9, although he did end up being more durable than Joe. He retired with more completions, yards, touchdowns, and wins, despite the fact that he did more scrambling and took more punishment. In fact, he is ranked either first, second, or third in all major passing categories, while Montana is eighth and ninth.
But Montana's efficiency — especially in big games — was incredible. Enough so that I think he deserves another touchdown.
Score: Montana 17, Elway 0

Coaching
This is where the analysis gets more… nuanced. While statistics are indeed important, professional football is a game with 22 players on the field and several dozen other players (and countless coaches) on the sidelines. When trying to decide which quarterback to pick for our intramural team in the sky, we need to look behind the numbers. We need to ask things like, "What if this guy had played for another team?" And, "How did his coaches do with other players in his position?" And, "Hasn't history shown that Dan Reeves knew more about licking footballs than coaching football?"
Which brings me to: Bill Walsh vs. Dan Reeves. Walsh was the father of the modern offense; Reeves was hawking blood pressure medication while still "coaching" an NFL team. Bill Walsh is revered to this day; Reeves is but a bad taste in the mouths of numerous teams. Admittedly, Walsh probably gets more credit than he deserves for the so-called west coast offense, but it's hard to deny that his offensive schemes were vastly superior to Reeves' who, inexplicably, never structured his offense around Elway. Instead he would run his famous "four yards and a cloud of dust" offense for 58 minutes, then turn it over to John for the last two.
How bad can a coach be for a player? With Reeves at the helm, John Elway's quarterback rating averaged 72.9. Post-Reeves, it averaged 89.1 — a sixteen point swing. The improvement came practically overnight. The first year after Reeves, Elway threw for over 4000 yards (something Montana never did), 25 touchdowns, and a rating of 92.8.
The recent tailspin of Denver's current coach, Mike Shanahan, is also telling. During the 1996–1998 seasons Shanahan was considered a mastermind who always kept one step ahead of the competition. Since Elway left, however, he's had Brian Griese (http://den.scout.com/a.z?s=101&p=8&c=1&nid=1988067) posting a 100+ QB rating, scrubs and rookies putting up 1500-yard rushing seasons, defensive units ranked second/third in the league, Clinton Portis (http://den.scout.com/a.z?s=101&p=8&c=1&nid=1806802) looking like the love child of Barry Sanders and Walter Payton, and… zero playoff victories.
So, Elway made it to three Super Bowls with horrible coaching and won two Super Bowls with decent coaching. Montana had the advantage of spending the majority of his career within a brilliant offensive scheme.
Touchdown, John.
Score: Montana 17, Elway 7

Supporting Cast
On the first list I mentioned above, Jerry Rice is ranked as the 2nd greatest player in the history of football. On the ESPN list, he's just two spots behind Montana. Rice has proven himself time and again with numerous quarterbacks, and seemingly everyone regards him as the best receiver to ever play the game.
In 1989 (the season Montana and Elway met in the Super Bowl), San Francisco's roster also included:
* Ronnie Lott
* Roger Craig
* John Taylor
* Steve Young
* Charles Haley
* Bill Romanowski
* Brent Jones
* Matt Millen
* Tom Rathman
* Bubba Paris

Meanwhile, John Elway had:
* Steve Atwater
* Karl Mecklenberg
* Dennis Smith
* Ricky… Somebody
* A guy named Vance, I think? (Or was it Steve?)
* Hey, was Bobby Humphrey the guy who married Whitney Houston?
* Is the Super Bowl XXIV blowout starting to make more sense to ANYONE???
So Montana played with a handful of future Hall-of-Famers, including the greatest wide receiver to have walked our planet. John Elway played with guys like the "Three Amigos," all three of whom were out of football within a year or two of leaving the Broncos for other teams.
Field goal, John.
Score: Montana 17, Elway 10

Head-to-Head Competition
Off the top of my head, I can remember two big games featuring the quarterbacks. The first was the lopsided Super Bowl, the second was the infamous "whoever gets the ball last is going to win this thing" Monday night game. Montana won both match-ups.
While this is certainly a worthwhile category, I don't think we can place too much emphasis on it since there are obvious "Coaching" and "Supporting Cast" elements that come into play. Also, I haven't been able to find a comprehensive list of their meetings, so we should probably stick with a field goal on this one.
Score: Montana 20, Elway 10

Name
'John Elway' is a pretty tough name — it brings to mind John Wayne and all — but 'Joe Montana' takes the cake. (Especially if you have never seen his mamma's-boy face.)
Score: Montana 23, Elway 10

Number
As we discussed earlier, God likes the number 7. A lot. So if you've somehow made it outside of time to pick an intramural football team, you might want to take this into consideration. Montana's numbers (16 and 19) might have been shout-outs to guys like Blanda and Unitas, but it's important to keep in mind that neither of these people is God.
But, leaving God's feelings out of this for a moment, let me ask: Which is a cooler number for a quarterback? 7, or 16? Which number inspires more fear in opposing defenses? 7, or 19? Do you think it's coincidence that "seven" sounds like "heaven" and "sixteen" sounds like "sissy?" I don't.
Score: Montana 23, Elway 13

Arm
Do I really need to say anything here?
Of the two quarterbacks, only one had receivers spending their off-seasons with machines rifling footballs at 100 miles-per-hour. This same player threw a football 65 yards on the fly, in high school, and was drafted by the New York Yankees coming out of college. (Hint: It's not the player whose name rhymes with Dough Bontana.)
Look, John Elway could make any throw on the field, even if he was falling down or running against the grain. When plays broke down, his receivers were instructed to go long. According to Rick Reilly, players from other teams would beg him to throw them a 40–yard out during Pro Bowl week, just so they could experience catching it. Pat Summerall called him "the master of the inconceivable pass thrown to the unreachable spot." And I'm pretty sure Pat said that before he went senile.
Let's move on.
Score: Montana 23, Elway 20

Legs and Athleticism
We probably shouldn't weigh it too heavily but, all other things being equal, I would take the more mobile of any two quarterbacks. Joe Montana had decent feet, but Elway was the master of the escape. At times, other teams were afraid to blitz him since he did his best work when he was running for his life. While he never reached the same level as The Player Formerly Known as Ron Mexico, he was definitely a better runner than Montana.
Field goal, John.
Score: Montana 23, Elway 23

Leadership
Well, it's all come down to this. The score is tied and we've saved one of the most important categories for last.
When discussing the relative merits of quarterbacks, leadership ability is, obviously, critical. A good leader will make everyone on their team better, and both Elway and Montana had this quality in spades. A good leader will inspire confidence in their teammates and fans -- both players did this, too.
But John Elway was a better team leader than anyone. He would stomp the sidelines and goad members of the defense. He would chastise receivers in the huddle when they dropped his passes. He would exhort his offensive line to play this down harder than they'd played any down in their lives. And he backed it all up by engineering more comeback victories than any quarterback in NFL history, including several in the postseason.
In Cleveland, he's known for "The Drive." In Houston, he's known for his fourth down heroics. In Super Bowl lore, he's known for his helicopter dive on third down. And in Marty Schottenheimer's therapist's office, he's known as "The One About Whom We Do Not Speak."
Joe Montana was a cool-headed field general, for sure, but it's hard to look back at the 49ers dynasty and say that none of it would have happened without him. In fact, Montana played his last few years in Kansas City because San Francisco figured they were better off with Steve Young, who went on to win a Super Bowl of his own.
Elway, on the other hand, WAS the Denver Broncos. His sheer willpower and determination led his teams — and the entire state of Colorado — to heights they would have otherwise never reached.
In summary, these two guys are arguably the best quarterbacks to ever play the game. Each ended their career with an impressive list of records and statistical achievements. Both undeniably, were champions. But Elway was better. Final Score: Montana 23, Elway 26
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:thumbs:

i concede that Elway >> Montana and that Elway > Marino.

but that's not what you're asserting. you're saying he's better than everyone. don't see how you're going to prove that. i cannot say that Elway was better than Unitas. i was too young to see Unitas play, but alot of very knowledgeable people say Unitas was the greatest ever. of course, to the people under 30, they think Unitas played in the era of flying wedges and leather helmets. they only know the pampered metrosexual QBs like Manning and Brady who are protected from being hit and who are throwing to receivers that can't be covered unless the DB is playing perfectly. i know the difference between today's game and the game played in the 1970's and 1980's. i know that Manning and Brady would not have been anything special back then. but i don't know how the guys from the 50's and 60's (or before) would stack up against today's players because i didn't see them firsthand. Y.A. Title? Graham? Starr? Baugh? i don't see any way i can compare them to Elway and don't see any way you can either.

Gort
02-08-2012, 09:28 AM
Good point.

even when Montana played, i always felt he was vastly overrated as a player, much like i think Simms is overrated. he benefited from a WCO that few teams ran. so when it came time to play the midwest teams or east coast teams in the playoffs, which were built to stop the conventional run-first offenses run by their divisional foes, they didn't match up well. SF also benefited from playing in a division consisting of the Saints, Rams, and Falcons which were all AWFUL for many, many years. the 49ers basically knew they'd win their division year in and year out and get lots of chances to go to the playoffs because they had NO competition in their division.

Tombstone RJ
02-08-2012, 09:35 AM
even when Montana played, i always felt he was vastly overrated as a player, much like i think Simms is overrated. he benefited from a WCO that few teams ran. so when it came time to play the midwest teams or east coast teams in the playoffs, which were built to stop the conventional run-first offenses run by their divisional foes, they didn't match up well. SF also benefited from playing in a division consisting of the Saints, Rams, and Falcons which were all AWFUL for many, many years. the 49ers basically knew they'd win their division year in and year out and get lots of chances to go to the playoffs because they had NO competition in their division.

Wasn't Tampa Bay also in the NFCW?? Talk about a boat load of suck. The Rams had some decent years with Everet and Dickerson but the Saints, Falcons and TB were just lousy for the most part.

Yah, it always ticked me off that SF has such a cake walk of a division schedule. The thing is, they did win in the playoffs when they had to. They beat real good NFC teams to reach those SBs.

edit: TB was in the NFC North... never mind...

BroncoBeavis
02-08-2012, 09:35 AM
Wasn't Tampa Bay also in the NFCW?? Talk about a boat load of suck. The Rams had some decent years with Everet and Dickerson but the Saints, Falcons and TB were just lousy for the most part.

Yah, it always ticked me off that SF has such a cake walk of a division schedule. The thing is, they did win in the playoffs when they had to. They beat real good NFC teams to reach those SBs.

Think they were in the old Central (with the Bears, Pack and Lions)

Bronco Rob
02-08-2012, 09:36 AM
i concede that Elway >> Montana and that Elway > Marino.

but that's not what you're asserting. you're saying he's better than everyone. don't see how you're going to prove that. i cannot say that Elway was better than Unitas. i was too young to see Unitas play, but alot of very knowledgeable people say Unitas was the greatest ever. of course, to the people under 30, they think Unitas played in the era of flying wedges and leather helmets. they only know the pampered metrosexual QBs like Manning and Brady who are protected from being hit and who are throwing to receivers that can't be covered unless the DB is playing perfectly. i know the difference between today's game and the game played in the 1970's and 1980's. i know that Manning and Brady would not have been anything special back then. but i don't know how the guys from the 50's and 60's (or before) would stack up against today's players because i didn't see them firsthand. Y.A. Title? Graham? Starr? Baugh? i don't see any way i can compare them to Elway and don't see any way you can either.



Johnny Unitas was smothered with HOF'ers

• Raymond Berry - WR
• John Mackey -TE
• Lenny Moore -RB
• Jim Parker - LT

And that's just on offense, not to mention Unitas did not have Dan Reeves the first 10 years of his career.


Jeff Hostetler put it best when he said "The only person that could stop John Elway was Dan Reeves."

Tombstone RJ
02-08-2012, 09:37 AM
Think they were in the old Central (with the Bears, Pack and Lions)

yep, you are correct. I can recall TB and GB playing each other twice a year and thinking wtf?

BroncoBeavis
02-08-2012, 09:38 AM
yep, you are correct. I can recall TB and GB playing each other twice a year and thinking wtf?

Don't tell my wife :)

Gort
02-08-2012, 09:44 AM
Johnny Unitas was smothered with HOF'ers

• Raymond Berry - WR
• John Mackey -TE
• Lenny Moore -RB
• Jim Parker - LT

And that's just on offense, not to mention Unitas did not have Dan Reeves the first 10 years of his career.


Jeff Hostetler put it best when he said "The only person that could stop John Elway was Dan Reeves."

or he made those players into HOF'ers. a rising tide raises all boats.

Berry, Mackey, Moore.

there is a reason that Unitas shows up on so many all-century teams. prior to the liberalization of the passing rules in 1978, which happened to be 1 year before Montana entered the league, Unitas was considered the greatest ever and the guy who defined the position. if he'd played with today's rules, who knows what kind of records he would have put up.

SleepingTiger
02-08-2012, 11:26 AM
Just reading the first couple of pages made me sick! The mention of Joe freakin Montana is sickening.

i just did a quick search of the years Montana won the superbowl and how many pro bowlers were part of that team. The numbers below do not include Montana.

81 - 4
84 - 9
88 - 7
89 - 5

What about all pro or all conference? again these numbers do not include montana

81 - 5
84 - 8
88 - 6
89 - 7

Montana had a great team around him. He had GOAT in there respective position in Rice and Lott. I am not hating on Montana, but Joe cool has nothing when comparing to Elway.

broncosteven
02-08-2012, 11:57 AM
Johnny Unitas was smothered with HOF'ers

• Raymond Berry - WR
• John Mackey -TE
• Lenny Moore -RB
• Jim Parker - LT

And that's just on offense, not to mention Unitas did not have Dan Reeves the first 10 years of his career.


Jeff Hostetler put it best when he said "The only person that could stop John Elway was Dan Reeves."


Unitas did it first, plus over the last couple years we are getting a couple HOF's in, Zimm, and Sharpe, TD deserves it but it will be a long time. Nalen and Schlereth should go in in time.