Wake the "F" Up, America

[Rohirrim]

In doing research for my new book, Greedy Bastards, I realized that there's one basic con played on the public across all industries. It is what I call The Very Bad Deal, in which you are offered something that looks quite appealing but are never told about the large hidden costs. These costs often take the form of shoving hidden risk onto the backs of the public, through a Bought Government. So it is with trade. Many people think about globalization as an inevitable result of lower trade barriers, technology, and capital flows. But for Greedy Bastards in banking and trade, globalization is a great slogan to use for selling off American technology and pocketing the profits, while an American government stays prostrate.

This cuts against a two hundred year American tradition of self-sufficiency. In 1791, US Secretary of the Treasury Alexander Hamilton presented his Report on Manufactures to the recently formed US Congress. Hamilton, as a recent high ranking officer in the American revolutionary army, saw how the British used their supply advantage to nearly defeat the Americans. His own army lacked for ammunition, boots, and even winter coats. His conclusion was simple - America needed to make its own supplies.

Until 1991, American leaders took as self-evidently important the security of supply lines of critical material. Starting with NAFTA, and then through the granting of China the trading privileges, we tossed that advantage away. Today, General Electric makes its lightbulbs in China. Since 2009, GM has opened 15 car factories in China, and shuttered 13 here at home, and it now sells more cars over there than over here. And tariffs on American goods entering China are 25%, versus 2.5% for Chinese goods entering America. Entire distribution networks from Walmart to Apple computer rely on Chinese manufacturing.

Congressman Duncan Hunter made the point more explicitly when he said that for all intents and purposes, American multinationals are now Chinese companies. "They like the fact that they are subsidized by their new government, which is China, and that they're able to push American products that are made in the United States off the shelves."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dylan-ratigan/auction-2012-how-greedy-b_b_1250292.html

[alkemical]

Damn....

I don't want to say "good" read, but he gets right to the cut of it. Worth the time to check out for sure.

Thanks Ro~

Also - found this via the OP/Article:

http://greedybastards.com/

[Rohirrim]

Given the fact that our politicians are owned by these multi-nationals, you could argue that they are basically Chinese agents.

[Play2win]

Its not just manufacturing of physical products either-- same goes for services and other forms of intellectual property. With the advancements made in the web, a lot of web development, programing and other IP are going for cut-rates overseas. Many US companies are getting their websites and internet presence developed overseas (ie., India), and even thought the quality can be far less and the risk is far more, companies still do it because it's too tempted to save a few bucks. Even though they sacrifice much more...

[alkemical]

Given the fact that our politicians are owned by these multi-nationals, you could argue that they are basically Chinese agents.

Well, i've been saying they* have been traitors/traders for some time...I was just more paranoid, and not as articulated as i am today.

:)

On the Election 2012 thread, I was trying to make a point of how people are so bought into the marketing of "middleclass", that they are advocating their own demise by support and evangelizing policies that will effectively kick them (& me) in the balls more than we already have been.

I don't understand this entrenched idea of supporting failure. It's the Peter Principle at work, in full swing!

[alkemical]

Its not just manufacturing of physical products either-- same goes for services and other forms of intellectual property. With the advancements made in the web, a lot of web development, programing and other IP are going for cut-rates overseas. Many US companies are getting their websites and internet presence developed overseas (ie., India), and even thought the quality can be far less and the risk is far more, companies still do it because it's too tempted to save a few bucks. Even though they sacrifice much more...

A lot of off shore accounting is also being done.

People want to keep blaming china - but I don't see a line of people here in the USA wanting to (and I don't blame them) work for "slave" conditions.

[Play2win]

A lot of off shore accounting is also being done.

People want to keep blaming china - but I don't see a line of people here in the USA wanting to (and I don't blame them) work for "slave" conditions.

I think the big elephant in the room is not necessarily outsourcing, but the ease of doing business internationally-- in most all arenas and venues. maybe not globalization, but global webization of business.

It basically has turned every business into a big ebay store.

[alkemical]

It's easier to do business internationally, but it's also a problem with outsourcing being rewarded as a solution.

In the NYT article on how the USA lost the iphone manu.f jobs - "labor" wasn't the concern for Apple. (As in cost) - it was more the infrastructure & logistics. (which as we know - is subsidized to the point that you can't compete without slaves)

[Tombstone RJ]

In doing research for my new book, Greedy Bastards, I realized that there's one basic con played on the public across all industries. It is what I call The Very Bad Deal, in which you are offered something that looks quite appealing but are never told about the large hidden costs. These costs often take the form of shoving hidden risk onto the backs of the public, through a Bought Government. So it is with trade. Many people think about globalization as an inevitable result of lower trade barriers, technology, and capital flows. But for Greedy Bastards in banking and trade, globalization is a great slogan to use for selling off American technology and pocketing the profits, while an American government stays prostrate.

This cuts against a two hundred year American tradition of self-sufficiency. In 1791, US Secretary of the Treasury Alexander Hamilton presented his Report on Manufactures to the recently formed US Congress. Hamilton, as a recent high ranking officer in the American revolutionary army, saw how the British used their supply advantage to nearly defeat the Americans. His own army lacked for ammunition, boots, and even winter coats. His conclusion was simple - America needed to make its own supplies.

Until 1991, American leaders took as self-evidently important the security of supply lines of critical material. Starting with NAFTA, and then through the granting of China the trading privileges, we tossed that advantage away. Today, General Electric makes its lightbulbs in China. Since 2009, GM has opened 15 car factories in China, and shuttered 13 here at home, and it now sells more cars over there than over here. And tariffs on American goods entering China are 25%, versus 2.5% for Chinese goods entering America. Entire distribution networks from Walmart to Apple computer rely on Chinese manufacturing.

Congressman Duncan Hunter made the point more explicitly when he said that for all intents and purposes, American multinationals are now Chinese companies. "They like the fact that they are subsidized by their new government, which is China, and that they're able to push American products that are made in the United States off the shelves."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dylan-ratigan/auction-2012-how-greedy-b_b_1250292.html

Globalization is a joke. IMHO China has been at war with the US for the better part of 20 years and definitely since the collaps of the USSR. The Chinese are mocking free trade and manipulating the markets. The "global" conglomerates are all to happy to play along as they end up with higher profit margins.

DC and congress should be held accountable.

[alkemical]

Globalization is a joke. IMHO China has been at war with the US for the better part of 20 years and definitely since the collaps of the USSR. The Chinese are mocking free trade and manipulating the markets. The "global" conglomerates are all to happy to play along as they end up with higher profit margins.

DC and congress should be held accountable.

Since 1999....

See the 5GW thread. It gives you the outline.... (and check your rep - i'll give you an idea i've been chewing on).

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

George Carlin: The Best 3 Minutes of His Career "The American Dream"

<iframe src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/rsL6mKxtOlQ" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="420"></iframe>

[Odysseus]

Globalization is a joke. IMHO China has been at war with the US for the better part of 20 years and definitely since the collaps of the USSR. The Chinese are mocking free trade and manipulating the markets. The "global" conglomerates are all to happy to play along as they end up with higher profit margins.

DC and congress should be held accountable.

The Chinese are not as selfish, stupid, divided, greedy, or short sighted as we are. They think of their national interests which, if we were wise, we would do the same.

The Chinese cannot afford the collapse of the U.S. ...right now...but things change. The world is going digital yet we have no use of the Internet that we created.

http://www.bloomberg.com/view/

By Philip Coggan

"When the world economy heads into crisis, the international currency system often breaks down. This occurs either because debtors can’t meet their obligations, or because creditors fear they are not being repaid in sound money. The first condition exists today in the euro zone; the second is likely to emerge in the China-U.S. relationship."

[lonestar]

The sky is falling, the sky is falling..

[Bronco Yoda]

Innovation was as American as apple pie once. Much of innovation happens right there on the assembly line. Guess where the assembly lines are now...they're no longer here that's for sure.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

The sky is falling, the sky is falling..

Thanks for giving us the perspective on the article from the short bus. :wave:

[Odysseus]

Innovation was as American as apple pie once. Much of innovation happens right there on the assembly line. Guess where the assembly lines are now...they're no longer here that's for sure.

The biggest problem, in my view, is our completely ineptitude with securing both government, corporate, and private networks. Our trade secrets are literally out there for the taking. We are stupid about this Internet thingy.

Second of all we seem to mistake political priority for national priority and as such one minute we are smart and the next minute are stupid depending on which compromised party is selling us out and why. Right is right no matter what party affiliation you support but we forget about that.

Third of globalization is not gong to stop. All our flag waving nostalgic childishness isn't going to make that go away. We need to look at real solutions instead of retooling Smoot-Hawly. We don't have honesty in politics either at top or at the grass roots so I have no idea how this is going to resolve itself.

It's not a question of if the sky is falling but where is the sky going to land and can it be marketed to create a better sky.

[Tombstone RJ]

The Chinese are not as selfish, stupid, divided, greedy, or short sighted as we are. They think of their national interests which, if we were wise, we would do the same.

The Chinese cannot afford the collapse of the U.S. ...right now...but things change. The world is going digital yet we have no use of the Internet that we created.

http://www.bloomberg.com/view/

By Philip Coggan

"When the world economy heads into crisis, the international currency system often breaks down. This occurs either because debtors can’t meet their obligations, or because creditors fear they are not being repaid in sound money. The first condition exists today in the euro zone; the second is likely to emerge in the China-U.S. relationship."

like I've said before, the Chinese are taking the free market and manipulating it in their favor. They are not playing by the same rules as everyone else. You can admire them for this or realize they have aggressive and world domination motives, and adjust your economic behavior accordingly.

I prefer the US adjusts its economic behavior with China, and quits placating them.

[alkemical]

Problem is...

NOBODY wants to do the work...

[Tombstone RJ]

Problem is...

NOBODY wants to do the work...

Not necessarily true. No one in the USA wants to do "the work" at the wages the Chinese pay. You offer an American worker $40.00/hr., plus benefits like health care, to make iphones and I bet you could find the labor.

Instead China inventories their workers, pays them nothing and makes them work long hours.

I guarantee you the life expectency of the people in this type of work system is probably very bad. However, because the socialist state of China is in charge (where human life has little to no value outside of serving the state) this crap is accepted.

[lonestar]

Innovation was as American as apple pie once. Much of innovation happens right there on the assembly line. Guess where the assembly lines are now...they're no longer here that's for sure.

the Chinese assembly lines are less likely to promote innovation, especially at $.34 an hour..

and there are many assembly lines in the US.. sorry your not aware of this..

SC is now a right to work state and have the Dreamliner assembly line there..

Many of the Car companies still have lines going in the USA, both in DET and the south..

Are there less than there used to be absolutely but you can blame two things on that over priced union workers and companies that have to stay competitive..

[lonestar]

Thanks for giving us the perspective on the article from the short bus. :wave:

Giving you the perspective as I read it in this thread. ALL DOOM and Gloom from the progressives..

[lonestar]

like I've said before, the Chinese are taking the free market and manipulating it in their favor. They are not playing by the same rules as everyone else. You can admire them for this or realize they have aggressive and world domination motives, and adjust your economic behavior accordingly.

I prefer the US adjusts its economic behavior with China, and quits placating them.

rather simple concept IMHO..

[lonestar]

Problem is...

NOBODY wants to do the work...

Loads of folks would do the work IF they had the incentive to do so..

Why take a job if your making more on unemployment and food stamps..Give them the incentive to do so.. Give the employers the incentive to hire these morons..Give them tax breaks for hiring these low lifes..

[chadta]

Give the employers the incentive to hire these morons..Give them tax breaks for hiring these low lifes..

really ?

Caterpillar recently purchased elctro motive in london ontario, ( cat made 4.5 billion last year) upon purchasing them they got a 5 million tax break from the government, what did they do with that ?

they demanded that workers who made an average of 34 bucks an hour, took a wage cut of 50%, and when they didnt they shut the plant to go to illinois, im sorry im all for low corporate taxes, but im not giving anybody any tax breaks, like alkemical says welfare for corporations is worse and more expensive then welfare for people, and it needs to stop.

[Rohirrim]

One thing you always notice about the jackasses who dump on unions, they will never surrender all the benefits the unions died to get for them, like forty hour work weeks, over time pay, vacation, etc. etc.

****ing hypocrites.

[Tombstone RJ]

really ?

Caterpillar recently purchased elctro motive in london ontario, ( cat made 4.5 billion last year) upon purchasing them they got a 5 million tax break from the government, what did they do with that ?

they demanded that workers who made an average of 34 bucks an hour, took a wage cut of 50%, and when they didnt they shut the plant to go to illinois, im sorry im all for low corporate taxes, but im not giving anybody any tax breaks, like alkemical says welfare for corporations is worse and more expensive then welfare for people, and it needs to stop.

yep, this is BS. I can guarantee you that Caterpillar will probably pull the same stunt in the USA, that is, demand a lower wage, less benefits and if they don't get it, they will move production further south into Mexico or across the Pacific to a country that has slave labor.

Big companies can't have it both ways. They can't have huge tax breaks but not create jobs (which is a way for the state to regain tax money). I'm all for tax incentives but they have to be directly related to jobs. If a big company comes to the USA and creates jobs, especially manufacturing jobs, and pays workers a good wage ($30/hr) and gives them benefits like health care, then I'm all for giving them a hefty tax break because they are creating jobs which in turn generates more tax revenue. However, if they don't do this, or if they low ball the pay of the employees and don't provide things like health insurance than I say don't enable them to get tax breaks.

Simplify the tax code, close the loopholes, yet provide tax incentives to companies that create real jobs and especially manufacturing jobs. Also, the companies that pay their workers well and provide benefits, reward them with better tax break incentives because ultimately, the state will regain that money by all the people who have jobs and then take that money and buy things.

[lonestar]

One thing you always notice about the jackasses who dump on unions, they will never surrender all the benefits the unions died to get for them, like forty hour work weeks, over time pay, vacation, etc. etc.

****ing hypocrites.

You do realize that those things happened decades ago..

Not a hypocrite just realizing the unions are blood suckers today that only cause jobs loss.. there were no deaths of unions

Those things are not going away under any circumstances, as 98% of them are government Regs today..

I for one liked having unions, as a manager as it was much easier to fire morons that were union members..

The non union folks took loads more documentation to fire.. Lots of gray areas..

I have zero issues with unions in right to work states.. they can piss into the tide all they want..



talk about ****ing hypocrites..

[lonestar]

really ?

Caterpillar recently purchased elctro motive in london ontario, ( cat made 4.5 billion last year) upon purchasing them they got a 5 million tax break from the government, what did they do with that ?

they demanded that workers who made an average of 34 bucks an hour, took a wage cut of 50%, and when they didnt they shut the plant to go to illinois, im sorry im all for low corporate taxes, but im not giving anybody any tax breaks, like alkemical says welfare for corporations is worse and more expensive then welfare for people, and it needs to stop.

yep that may have happened,

But I was talking about giving tax breaks to SMALL businesses that hire most of the labor in the US..

If they expand their assembly lines or open new shops give them tax breaks on those new employees.. and facilities for a certain time frame to encourage them to grow..

The big corporations will take advantage of said things because they have tons of legal advise and loopholes to do so..

Simplify the tax codes so we can get rid of all the scum suckers that lobby for this crap and lawyers that interpret them..

I would have zero problem putting those **********s out of work..

[alkemical]

you realize apple states it's not the cost of labor, it's infrastructure and lack of midlevel engineers. now, part of 'infrastructure' to apple is having a small army cracking the whip on a few K workers...(ooohhh weeee oooooo....oooooo-ooooo) as to why the us lost those jobs. (that's what jobs told obama @ his silicon valley dinner)...

my point of not making things...is we don't. we just buy ****.

why doesn't america make stuff? Cuz we don't. We buy it and throw it away.

IBM, Apple, etc - don't want to pay you*.

[alkemical]

ps - don't hate unions & union members for being capitalists and getting what they could. what are they supposed to do, work cheaper for "principle"?

lol

[lonestar]

ps - don't hate unions & union members for being capitalists and getting what they could. what are they supposed to do, work cheaper for "principle"?

lol

Actually when a janitor on an union auto assembly line is making union mandated 43K cash money a year with anther 30 in benifets well yes they should take less. IMO

But hey that is just me. I'm sure your perfectly willing to add 6K to the next car you by just to pay retires annual benefits and cash money.

Myself I will not do that again.

[mhgaffney]

You'll pay more for a German made car -- true -- but it will run the pants off anything you can get from Detroit.

We need to import not only German cars but the German economic model.

1. friendly to labor
2. investment at home -- no outsourcing of capital -- no off shoring
3. high wages
4. stable society
5. emphasis on higher education
6. excellent retirement plans
7. health care a right

[Odysseus]

like I've said before, the Chinese are taking the free market and manipulating it in their favor. They are not playing by the same rules as everyone else. You can admire them for this or realize they have aggressive and world domination motives, and adjust your economic behavior accordingly.

I prefer the US adjusts its economic behavior with China, and quits placating them.

We have different positions. You don't get it. We owe the Chinese money. They don't owe us crap. They don't have to play nice. They have money... our money.

Our Republican leaders are saying "We just won't pay them" which, from a common sense global standpoint, is stupid. Our Democratic leaders are saying stay the course which is a compromised global position at best.

We don't seem to have any real handle on national interests in global economy. China is not confused. China is getting quite a lot of pressure to play nice with other economies but the fact we think that they owe us this compassion is short sighted.

[alkemical]

Actually when a janitor on an union auto assembly line is making union mandated 43K cash money a year with anther 30 in benifets well yes they should take less. IMO

But hey that is just me. I'm sure your perfectly willing to add 6K to the next car you by just to pay retires annual benefits and cash money.

Myself I will not do that again.

Why, not all car companies operate under those conditions. You also have to blame management for making the bad deal.

But yeah, if you were the janitor making $43k - you'd not take less. You know it, i know it, etc.

[alkemical]

We have different positions. You don't get it. We owe the Chinese money. They don't owe us crap. They don't have to play nice. They have money... our money.

Our Republican leaders are saying "We just won't pay them" which, from a common sense global standpoint, is stupid. Our Democratic leaders are saying stay the course which is a compromised global position at best.

We don't seem to have any real handle on national interests in global economy. China is not confused. China is getting quite a lot of pressure to play nice with other economies but the fact we think that they owe us this compassion is short sighted.

LOL, considering we're the country that always gave deals with strings - and always told everybody else "we don't owe you ****"....not very fun when you start getting a taste of your own medicine.

Suck it up boys & girls. We better learn to up/recycle and find ways to sustainability. It's going the be the fastest way to "freedom".

[Rohirrim]

You do realize that those things happened decades ago..

.

So what? You're still a dumb ****ing redneck. And I'm guessing that's been going on for decades as well.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

So what? You're still a dumb ****ing redneck. And I'm guessing that's been going on for decades as well.

L0L!

:yep:

[chadta]

Actually when a janitor on an union auto assembly line is making union mandated 43K cash money a year with anther 30 in benifets well yes they should take less. IMO

But hey that is just me. I'm sure your perfectly willing to add 6K to the next car you by just to pay retires annual benefits and cash money.

Myself I will not do that again.

in 2003 GM had 200,000 employees sold 4.4 million cars and was making money hand over fist
in 2008 they had 70,000 employees sold 4.3 million cars and were bleeding to death.

so yeah clearly it must be all those wages that are causing the auto industry problems, when you can get rid of 2/3rds the work force, sell the same amount of product and still lose money, yup its the workers fault

[txtebow]

I love the Dylan Ratigan show.......

[BroncsRule]

I prefer the US adjusts its economic behavior with China, and quits placating them.


Problem is: If we change policy towards China, start "protecting" ourselves more.. quit "placating" them..

They'le just call in our margin and shut us down. Cold.

Until we scream uncle.

Face it: They're calling the tune, and we get to dance.

[alkemical]

Problem is: If we change policy towards China, start "protecting" ourselves more.. quit "placating" them..

They'le just call in our margin and shut us down. Cold.

Until we scream uncle.

Face it: They're calling the tune, and we get to dance.

In learning about 5gw, it's main focus is having an undelcared war - but you can't speak about it (fight club).

How would we be able to...shift/change policies - and not talk about what we are doing openly, in order to cull the loss and get our selves out of this mess?

[BroncsRule]

In learning about 5gw, it's main focus is having an undelcared war - but you can't speak about it (fight club).

How would we be able to...shift/change policies - and not talk about what we are doing openly, in order to cull the loss and get our selves out of this mess?

Very valid question. Bottom line: It would take resolve. Backbone. Qualities the American people (and her leaders) haven't shown very much of in the last 40? + years.

The ability to see the endgame and pay a significant price to get there.

[BroncsRule]

..and I love the 5gw articles/links, btw

[alkemical]

Very valid question. Bottom line: It would take resolve. Backbone. Qualities the American people (and her leaders) haven't shown very much of in the last 40? + years.

The ability to see the endgame and pay a significant price to get there.


How does Anon fit into this "end_game"...they're obviously co-opted/sponsored due to the targets. But the targets aren't the targets if you notice. The targets are distractions. All the "leaks" are hemorrhaged data that is only announced after it's been posted (smart).

The "netwar" is 4gw. It's an infrastructure attack. The parties can be 5gw players though using 4gw infrastructure/methods.

I just think much more of what we see, isn't what we see. It's what we're sold to see - thus our decisions are being manipulated, and we're forced into a "raw deal". (Remember that known/knowns/unknown comment from Rumsfeld...something like that).

Personally - if we want manufacturing to return, etc - we just need to shut our face and do it. That's one of my big problems with Americans (agrees with yours) - we are a lot of talk...and very few of us will actually carry something out.

PS - back to Anon - a group on FB that was "shared" by anon is about exposing Monsanto & Dow GMO products.

Hmmm -

[BroncsRule]

Well we're talking about 2 very different "endgames'.. the endgame I mention above refers to a rejuvinated America - free of oil dependancy (or at least well along the "weaning" path) - reinvigorated, localized, sustainable manufacturing, and community building.

the other "endgame" is "their" endgame, which seems to be about maintaining the status quo as long as possible.

[BroncsRule]

By the way, in the article linked in the OP, the author mentions "Ascorbic Acid" as a food preservative now only produced at one factory in China, thereby placing our food supply at risk.

Ascorbic Acid is in fact Vitamin C - the process for extracting it from glucose is over 100 years old, and is no longer covered by any sort of patent protection.

Ascorbic Acid is produced all over the world.

This hevy handed and moronic misstatement of fact cals into serious question the veracity of the entire article (as well as the book it's based on, and the author)

[Tombstone RJ]

Problem is: If we change policy towards China, start "protecting" ourselves more.. quit "placating" them..

They'le just call in our margin and shut us down. Cold.

Until we scream uncle.

Face it: They're calling the tune, and we get to dance.

Well, I have a solution for that too. They can call the margin all they want but they won't get the money. It's very much like a credit card company calling someone and saying, "I want all $25k now" and the person on the other line says "I don't have it, but I can pay you $500 a month, that's better than nothing."

Whats the cc company gonna do? 9 times out of 10 they will take the payment.

What's China gonna do, start a war? Nah, they know better than that. We are their biggest customer and they'd rather have some money rather than no money.

[alkemical]

Well, I have a solution for that too. They can call the margin all they want but they won't get the money. It's very much like a credit card company calling someone and saying, "I want all $25k now" and the person on the other line says "I don't have it, but I can pay you $500 a month, that's better than nothing."

Whats the cc company gonna do? 9 times out of 10 they will take the payment.

What's China gonna do, start a war? Nah, they know better than that. We are their biggest customer and they'd rather have some money rather than no money.

They have already declared war. They are using 5gw principles, it's why they've been beating us to the punch in everything.

[Tombstone RJ]

They have already declared war. They are using 5gw principles, it's why they've been beating us to the punch in everything.

yah, they have declared war on us, economic war. Point is they will never do a margin call on the US.

[alkemical]

they've also been hacking us, and working at a few other fronts. they don't need to do a margin call...they'll just manipulate the markets in their favor...

[Odysseus]

China wants us to go back to the gold standard. That would mean the $10 we borrowed is now worth $100. Our trading partners would have to re-evaluate how much of our now expensive goods they would want to buy and the expanse of Chinese markets would continue unabated. China says "vote for Ron Paul" and set Chinese military free!

This, of course, could be all wrong. It's a sports forum. Who knew?

[orinjkrush]

Well, I have a solution for that too. They can call the margin all they want but they won't get the money. It's very much like a credit card company calling someone and saying, "I want all $25k now" and the person on the other line says "I don't have it, but I can pay you $500 a month, that's better than nothing."

Whats the cc company gonna do? 9 times out of 10 they will take the payment.

What's China gonna do, start a war? Nah, they know better than that. We are their biggest customer and they'd rather have some money rather than no money.

exactly, we have leveraged ourselves into an economic MAD (mutually assured destruction) scenario . we have each other over the same barrel. what scares the chinese is our QE2-3 devaluations. they lose with that BIG TIME.

the only real industry the good ole USA is still leading in is Defense and maybe Space. when that goes....(oh, and the only reason we have them is because we strategically managed them NOT to go out of business or take their stuff offshore!)