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Boltjolt
01-30-2012, 10:52 PM
Wow. It's just unbelievable the excuses people make for this guy.

He's genuinely a good guy, and I hate saying negative things about him, but it's just so ridiculous...

Agree. I like the kid and love what he stands for. Im not a hater of Tebow at all. Doesnt help that he is a Bronco but im not like most fans and yes i even mean fans in here who hate Rivers because he is good, refuse to believe he is a good guy and he is a Charger but Tebow is a good kid, a good human being and many great college QB's dont succeed in the NFL. Florida has had their share of good QB's that havent succeeded...like Danny Weurful, Chris Leak, Grossman...though Grossman is still around.

I remember Ken Dorsey of Miami(FL) never lost a game from high school on up thru college and was a 7th round pick and didnt do anything in the NFL.

Tebow for all his ability as a runner and he actually was a good passer in college but its a different game in the NFL and he isnt a very good passer in it. No doubt i think he will improve because he has been for the most part, pretty bad but the way he plays and the way they use him, he may not make it long. He'll be too beat up.

Archer81
01-30-2012, 10:53 PM
Wow.. you really are that stupid that I have to explain it to you.. it was a typo...


Doubtful.

:Broncos:

StugotsIII
01-30-2012, 10:54 PM
Yes.. because he played with Tebow who could run between the tackles as a QB you jackwagon.. same reason McGahee looked so great this year next to him.



How did Florida's runners fare against Alabama?

Where did those guys go in the draft compared to Florida's receivers..



Both Rainey and Demps were under sized SEC runners one of them was not taken by FSU and was bitter about it...

And yet you claim Florida is supposed to be a run first team.. yet they don't have SEC caliber between the tackles runners?

Harvin went in the first round….I can't think of any Florida WR's that faired any better. Demps and Rainey are still playing as are most of those players…

It is a fact that Florida was a run first team…they ran anywhere from 58-62% of the time…even more depending on the year.

StugotsIII
01-30-2012, 10:57 PM
So all the talent only happened to be at Florida when Tebow was there? LOL

Makes sense...

And Cam only looked better running the football because he had runners taking the pressure off him running the ball. When teams focused on stopping Cam the other runners beat them even worse.. complete opposite with Tebow. Teams would take him out of the game and the other runners around Tebow would not punish them.

This is why Tebow has been a better runner in the NFL than cam even with a worse offense around him.

Newton broke the all time NFL single season rushing TD record….how is Tebow the better runner?

Boltjolt
01-30-2012, 10:58 PM
What on Earth makes you think cam is stronger than Tebow? Tebow weighs as much as Cam on a 3 inch shorter frame... I have heard countless tales about how strong Tebow is but nothing about Cam...

If Cam was anywhere near as good as Tebow as an athlete surely we would have seen Cam on the field when he was at Florida like Tebow was used to win their first championship.. but nope... he was in junior college instead...

Wow, your an embarrassment...lol. BTW, Cam weighs about 12-15 more LBS than Tebow. Cam is 248-250. Dont know if he is stronger as far a lifting weights but who cares. He does however have a much stronger throwing arm.

MacGruder
01-30-2012, 10:59 PM
Harvin went in the first round….I can't think of any Florida WR's that faired any better. Demps and Rainey are still playing as are most of those players…

It is a fact that Florida was a run first team…they ran anywhere from 58-62% of the time…even more depending on the year.

But Harvin wasn't used as a runner you jackwagon.. he isn't in the NFL either.. LOL

Harvin IS a receiver! He was drafted as a receiver.. not a runningback.. LOL WOW

So the run first teams "best runner" was drafted as a receiver.. LOL

WOW

MacGruder
01-30-2012, 11:01 PM
Wow, your an embarrassment...lol. BTW, Cam weighs about 12-15 more LBS than Tebow. Cam is 248-250. Dont know if he is stronger as far a lifting weights but who cares. He does however have a much stronger throwing arm.

Tebow weighed 245 lbs last season.. don't know what he weighs this season..

Cam's height is also a liability as a runner.. how many 6'6 runningbacks do you see?

Tebow is the prototypical size of a NFL runningback...

StugotsIII
01-30-2012, 11:04 PM
During Tebow's starting years, Florida was at worst 23rd and at best 10th in rushing…


During the same time, Florida was 38th, 61st and 41st in passing…


How was Florida a pass first offense again?

StugotsIII
01-30-2012, 11:05 PM
Tebow weighed 245 lbs last season.. don't know what he weighs this season..

Cam's height is also a liability as a runner.. how many 6'6 runningbacks do you see?

Tebow is the prototypical size of a NFL runningback...

Too bad both players are quarterbacks….

MacGruder
01-30-2012, 11:05 PM
Newton broke the all time NFL single season rushing TD record….how is Tebow the better runner?

TD record is based on your offensive output as a team.. as I said Cam had a better offense around him.. better offensive players and played a wide open offensive style allowing for more TDs. Tebow almost had as many rushing yards as Cam in 5 fewer games.. that's ownage.


Cam also had a weaker defenses that forced his offense to score more which allows more TD opportunities... Look at great offensive production and those guys get it by having defenses that allow the opposing team to score alot.. Brady, Brees and Aaron Rdogers this season..

Same thing with Cam's Auburn team...

StugotsIII
01-30-2012, 11:06 PM
But Harvin wasn't used as a runner you jackwagon.. he isn't in the NFL either.. LOL

Harvin IS a receiver! He was drafted as a receiver.. not a runningback.. LOL WOW

So the run first teams "best runner" was drafted as a receiver.. LOL

WOW

What is your point?


He played running back in college.


You didn't answer my question….what Florida WR was drafted high?

MacGruder
01-30-2012, 11:06 PM
Too bad both players are quarterbacks….

Not if they are a running Qb.. especially in this era where it is so difficult to protect pocket Qbs...

TDmvp
01-30-2012, 11:08 PM
http://sivers.org/images/fightclub.gif

StugotsIII
01-30-2012, 11:08 PM
TD record is based on your offensive output as a team.. as I said Cam had a better offense around him.. better offensive players and played a wide open offensive style allowing for more TDs. Tebow almost had as many rushing yards as Cam in 5 fewer games.. that's ownage.


Cam also had a weaker defenses that forced his offense to score more which allows more TD opportunities... Look at great offensive production and those guys get it by having defenses that allow the opposing team to score alot.. Brady, Brees and Aaron Rdogers this season..

Same thing with Cam's Auburn team...

You didn't answer my question.

StugotsIII
01-30-2012, 11:08 PM
Not if they are a running Qb.. especially in this era where it is so difficult to protect pocket Qbs...

What?

MacGruder
01-30-2012, 11:11 PM
What is your point?


He played running back in college.


You didn't answer my question….what Florida WR was drafted high?

No he wasn't used as a runningback.. that's the point.. all those "running yards" where off of bubble screens... do you even watch college football? lol

StugotsIII
01-30-2012, 11:15 PM
No he wasn't used as a runningback.. that's the point.. all those "running yards" where off of bubble screens... do you even watch college football? lol

Holy ****ing **** you are THE dumbest human alive...

MacGruder
01-30-2012, 11:15 PM
During Tebow's starting years, Florida was at worst 23rd and at best 10th in rushing…


During the same time, Florida was 38th, 61st and 41st in passing…


How was Florida a pass first offense again?

How does that sta prove otherwise.. defenses take away your strength and dare you to beat them with your weakness...

You are also comparing Florida to non SEC teams.. those offenses wouldn't fly at all in the SEC> Look at Bradford and McCoy.. they looked like better passers in college playing BIG12 Ds and Tebow outplayed them this year... So did matt Flynn for that matter... and Cam Newton..

MacGruder
01-30-2012, 11:18 PM
Holy ****ing **** you are THE dumbest human alive...

Yes... the team you claim is run first had their best "runner" drafted as a receiver and I am the idiot.. LMFAO...

This is the same guy who said Florida kicked Cam out.. lol

Boltjolt
01-30-2012, 11:21 PM
What is your point?


He played running back in college.


You didn't answer my question….what Florida WR was drafted high?

Florida doesnt have a bunch of WR's drafted high and since 2000 only about 10 were drafted at all and only a few are even in the league today. Chad Jackson was a bust, Andre Caldwell is a backup, Riley Cooper was a 5th rounder in 2010 who is a backup, Louis Murphy hasnt fared very well and was a 4th rounder.
Harvin is by far the best of the bunch and he was pretty much a RB at Florida. He did both actually.

Cooper is the only WR drafted from Florida in 2010 and 2011.

StugotsIII
01-30-2012, 11:23 PM
Yes... the team you claim is run first had their best "runner" drafted as a receiver and I am the idiot.. LMFAO...

This is the same guy who said Florida kicked Cam out.. lol

Yes….the spread option is a run first offense.


The run opens up the pass….using playaction off the devastating running game off the zone read option.


And yes….Newton broke the law AND cheated on many tests and was caught. He was about to get expelled…and was already suspended from the team.

MacGruder
01-30-2012, 11:23 PM
Florida doesnt have a bunch of WR's drafted high and since 2000 only about 10 were drafted at all and only a few are even in the league today. Chad Jackson was a bust, Andre Caldwell is a backup, Riley Cooper was a 5th rounder in 2010 who is a backup, Louis Murphy hasnt fared very well and was a 4th rounder.
Harvin is by far the best of the bunch and he was pretty much a RB at Florida. He did both actually.

Cooper is the only WR drafted from Florida in 2010 and 2011.

What? I thought Florida's great receivers were carrying Tebow?

You guys gotta get your story straight..

MacGruder
01-30-2012, 11:24 PM
Yes….the spread option is a run first offense.


The run opens up the pass….using playaction off the devastating running game off the zone read option.


And yes….Newton broke the law AND cheated on many tests and was caught. He was about to get expelled…and was already suspended from the team.

Keep deluding yourself dude...

Boltjolt
01-30-2012, 11:24 PM
No he wasn't used as a runningback.. that's the point.. all those "running yards" where off of bubble screens... do you even watch college football? lol

Dude, Percy Harvin had 194 career rushes at Florida for 1,852 yards. He had 133 receptions Ha!
I saw plenty of Florida games and he rushed the ball quite a bit.

http://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/percy-harvin-1.html

StugotsIII
01-30-2012, 11:25 PM
Florida doesnt have a bunch of WR's drafted high and since 2000 only about 10 were drafted at all and only a few are even in the league today. Chad Jackson was a bust, Andre Caldwell is a backup, Riley Cooper was a 5th rounder in 2010 who is a backup, Louis Murphy hasnt fared very well and was a 4th rounder.
Harvin is by far the best of the bunch and he was pretty much a RB at Florida. He did both actually.

Cooper is the only WR drafted from Florida in 2010 and 2011.

Right on…

Meyere is at OSU right now recruiting athletes to play the Percy Harvin role.

Harvin played mostly in the slot and motioned into the backfield next to Tebow.

I would argue that Harvin was more valuable on that team than Tebow was…but both gained by the presents of the other. Great combination.

StugotsIII
01-30-2012, 11:26 PM
Keep deluding yourself dude...

Everything I've said is common knowledge...

KO5K
01-30-2012, 11:28 PM
This is the problem with Tebow haters.

You allow people like MacGruder to influence your opinion of Tebow when he's clearly just trolling all of you.

Then you throw him in with the rest of the Tebow fans to try and convince yourselfs that you're right when it comes to Tebow.

MacGruder
01-30-2012, 11:29 PM
Dude, Percy Harvin had 194 career rushes at Florida for 1,852 yards. He had 133 receptions Ha!

http://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/percy-harvin-1.html

Yes,... because of Tebow's ability to run the ball between the tackles as a QB! That's the point..without that he wouldn't have been able to run at all in the SEC...

Wow.. I feel like I am feeding an invalid...

Those were off the option which Tebow's unheard of running ability and passing ability created...

MacGruder
01-30-2012, 11:30 PM
Everything I've said is common knowledge...

LOL

Yes.. common knowledge equals reality.. and in other news the Earth is still flat and man wasn't meant to fly... and Tebow didn't just lead his team to the playoffs when Orton couldn't while Cam and Bradford were watching from home..

Boltjolt
01-30-2012, 11:31 PM
Yes,... because of Tebow's ability to run the ball between the tackles as a QB! That's the point..without that he wouldn't have been able to run at all in the SEC...

Wow.. I feel like I am feeding an invalid...

Those were off the option which Tebow's unheard of running ability and passing ability created...

Keep talking , the hole is only getting deeper. Here is some Percy Harvin rushes for ya...all set up by Tebow...LOL
Dont pay attention to those runs up the gut by Harvin :~ohyah!: The invalid being fed is yourself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZGneG7UMZY

MacGruder
01-30-2012, 11:32 PM
This is the problem with Tebow haters.

You allow people like MacGruder to influence your opinion of Tebow when he's clearly just trolling all of you.

Then you throw him in with the rest of the Tebow fans to try and convince yourselfs that you're right when it comes to Tebow.

Yes.. it's my fault for having to explain things to these people.. even though I am continually proven right..

MacGruder
01-30-2012, 11:34 PM
Keep talking , the hole is only getting deeper. Here is some Percy Harvin rushes for ya...all set up by Tebow...LOL
Dont pay attention to those runs up the gut by Harvin :~ohyah!: The invalid being fed is yourself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZGneG7UMZY

So then why isn't he used as a runningback in the NFL??

LOL

Yes.. keep digging the hole indeed...

Tebow had plenty of runs up the gut too.. does that mean HE is a runningback too?

LOL

WOW

It boggles the mind how dim people can be...

Boltjolt
01-30-2012, 11:41 PM
So then why isn't he used as a runningback in the NFL??

LOL

Yes.. keep digging the hole indeed...

Tebow had plenty of runs up the gut too.. does that mean HE is a runningback too?

LOL

WOW

It boggles the mind how dim people can be...

That wasnt the question was it? You said Harvin didnt play RB at Florida and he had more carries than receptions and a video that proves you wrong.

You lose!

KO5K
01-30-2012, 11:44 PM
You lose!

You've spent the last few hours arguing with MacGruder.

You lose.

MacGruder
01-30-2012, 11:46 PM
That wasnt the question was it? You said Harvin didnt play RB at Florida and he had more carries than receptions and a video that proves you wrong.

You lose!

Yes... you win.. The Gators best supposed runner on a run first team was drafted as a receiver.. but YOU win.. LOL

The delusions continue..

TDmvp
01-30-2012, 11:46 PM
You've spent the last few hours arguing with MacGruder.

You lose.

Yup ...

Boltjolt
01-30-2012, 11:47 PM
You've spent the last few hours arguing with MacGruder.

You lose.

Touche'...but ive only just realised that he is one of your forum birdbrains. Not like im a regular but it has been entertaining. Wouldnt want to have to read his jibberish everyday.

You guys lose :~ohyah!:

MacGruder
01-30-2012, 11:49 PM
You've spent the last few hours arguing with MacGruder.

You lose.

Just keep this thread around.. and when Cam is washed out of the league we will see who lost the argument.

Shananahan
01-30-2012, 11:52 PM
MacGruder subforum is long overdue.

MacGruder
01-30-2012, 11:53 PM
MacGruder subforum is long overdue.

The flies are growing in number... they smell the rotting corpse of my opponents...

Boltjolt
01-30-2012, 11:54 PM
Yes... you win.. The Gators best supposed runner on a run first team was drafted as a receiver.. but YOU win.. LOL

The delusions continue..

Your the one that said they had all these great WR's that were drafted and their RB's were nothing. Harvin was a RB at Florida when you said he wasnt. Well, where are all these great Florida WR's at?

Delusions indeed. We cant help it if you were dropped on your head when you were born. Stupid is what stupid does and you make stupid posts.

The guys here must be proud to have you :'(

MacGruder
01-30-2012, 11:58 PM
Your the one that said they had all these great WR's that were drafted and their RB's were nothing. Harvin was a RB at Florida when you said he wasnt. Well, where are all these great Florida WR's at?

Delusions indeed. We cant help it if you were dropped on your head when you were born. Stupid is what stupid does and you make stupid posts.

The guys here must be proud to have you :'(

Harvin was drafted in the first round as a receiver.. there's one. Louis Murphy, Aaron Hernandez, Riley Cooper, David Nelson, Bubba Caldwell.. ALL these guys are much more known than Florida's supposed primary players in their runningbacks..

It's truly absurd you are even arguing otherwise..even with opposing defenses trying to shutdown the pass first and letting the Gators run the receivers completely out shined the runners..

If that doesn't tell you what will?

DBroncos4life
01-30-2012, 11:59 PM
That wasnt the question was it? You said Harvin didnt play RB at Florida and he had more carries than receptions and a video that proves you wrong.

You lose!

Harvin is used as a RB in the NFL. When Peterson went down he had lots of snaps at RB.

MacGruder
01-31-2012, 12:03 AM
Harvin is used as a RB in the NFL. When Peterson went down he had lots of snaps at RB.

Yeah.. and how far did that get them..?

The Broncos used lots of guys at runningback too.. without Tebow would they be any good? He also has struggled with injuries even in his limited role as a runner..

Boltjolt
01-31-2012, 12:09 AM
Harvin was drafted in the first round as a receiver.. there's one. Louis Murphy, Aaron Hernandez, Riley Cooper, David Nelson, Bubba Caldwell.. ALL these guys are much more known than Florida's supposed primary players in their runningbacks..

It's truly absurd you are even arguing otherwise..even with opposing defenses trying to shutdown the pass first and letting the Gators run the receivers completely out shined the runners..

If that doesn't tell you what will?

Dude...just going by what you are saying so lets take your foot out of your mouth and see what you got here.

Harvin is one
Murphy is a backup and not a factor
Hernandez was and is a TE...NOT a WR at Florida
Cooper is a backup
Caldwell is a backup

I already named these guys. Thats 4 WR's still playing ini the NFL.

You said they were great players who were drafted early and none were except Harvin and they arent doing much in the NFL except....Harvin, who not only was a RB at Florida when you said he wasnt and he also had 52 carries at RB this year when Peterson went down, ...so....he is playing RB in the NFL too, but yes, he was drafted to play WR. Oh wait, Chad Jackson was a 2nd round pick...who was a BUST!

All in all, your whole premise is a FAIL!!!

MacGruder
01-31-2012, 12:13 AM
Hey genius.. compare the Gators receivers to other college teams.

Fin.

Compare their runners to Alabama and even Auburn when Cam was there.

Fin.

You say the receivers weren't that great as NFL prospects.. but look at the runners.. none of them were even comparable to these receivers as NFL prospects. Except Harvin... who you claim is a runner but was drafted as a receiver from a supposed run first team.. LMAO

Boltjolt
01-31-2012, 12:15 AM
You really shouldnt be namecalling when you have made perhaps the worst string of posts ive seen in a while and even your own here think your talking out your as*. I mean who cares about their RB's. I only cared about the guy you said wasnt a RB there and that their WR's were great....which they arent except for Harvin.

Go sleep it off.

MacGruder
01-31-2012, 12:20 AM
Yeah.. that's what I thought.. lol

Thanks for playing. Another person that has no clue what they are talking about.

And yet it's supposedly my fault...

These idiots you claim are your supporters have been just as owned as you in the past. They were just as clueless.

Fascinating how the Gators who are supposedly supposed to be the most talented team around are supposed to be a run first team but have the weakest runners..

Fascinating..

By your logic Mark Ingram and Trent Richardson should be drafted as receivers...

Jay3
01-31-2012, 03:48 AM
What is your point?


He played running back in college.


You didn't answer my question….what Florida WR was drafted high?

I wondered why you kept posting as if Harvin was a running back. You thought he was a running back.

Harvin was a receiver for the Gators. And he was drafted high.

oubronco
01-31-2012, 05:53 AM
If Tebow "flunks out" it won't be his fault

Really LOL

BroncoBeavis
01-31-2012, 06:06 AM
Love these arguments. Harvin was a runningback because he had some rushing yards (guess Royal and Decker are RBs now). But Hernandez wasn't a receiver because he was a tight end, even though he's lined up wide at times. Or wait, he's a runningback because the Pats had him in the backfield.

What's the point again?

StugotsIII
01-31-2012, 09:10 AM
I wondered why you kept posting as if Harvin was a running back. You thought he was a running back.

Harvin was a receiver for the Gators. And he was drafted high.

He wasn't a running back in college…

He wasn't a wide receiver in college…

He was a Harvin in college…

Anytime someone rushes the ball nearly 200 times in their college career and averages nearly 10 yards a carry….I'd say that classifies them as a running back.

He was definitely a hybrid...

BroncoBeavis
01-31-2012, 09:13 AM
He wasn't a running back in college…

He wasn't a wide receiver in college…

He was a Harvin in college…

Anytime someone rushes the ball nearly 200 times in their college career and averages nearly 10 yards a carry….I'd say that classifies them as a running back.

He was definitely a hybrid...

What is your point again? That Tebow broke SEC PASSING RECORDS throwing to a bunch of scrubs?

DBroncos4life
01-31-2012, 10:00 AM
Love these arguments. Harvin was a runningback because he had some rushing yards (guess Royal and Decker are RBs now). But Hernandez wasn't a receiver because he was a tight end, even though he's lined up wide at times. Or wait, he's a runningback because the Pats had him in the backfield.

What's the point again?

No one said he is just a RB but 50 plus carries for a WR is more then most teams number three RBs. Can you name another WR with 50 plus carries in a season?

BroncoBeavis
01-31-2012, 10:06 AM
No one said he is just a RB but 50 plus carries for a WR is more then most teams number three RBs. Can you name another WR with 50 plus carries in a season?

Why would I bother? What difference does it make? I'm missing a point here somewhere I guess.

Boltjolt
01-31-2012, 10:19 AM
No one said he is just a RB but 50 plus carries for a WR is more then most teams number three RBs. Can you name another WR with 50 plus carries in a season?

Harvin had 83 carries one season in college in 12 games. Darren Sproles had 87 carries this year in the NFL in 16 games.

If Harvin didnt have migrane issues the guy would be a big impact player with bigger stats. He had 52 carries this year as well.

BroncoBeavis
01-31-2012, 10:24 AM
Harvin had 83 carries one season in college in 12 games. Darren Sproles had 87 carries this year in the NFL in 16 games.

Sproles also had 86 catches this year, and had more receiving yards than rushing. So I guess Sproles is a WR now.

Anyway WTF is the point?

TheReverend
01-31-2012, 10:26 AM
Sproles also had 86 catches this year, and had more receiving yards than rushing. So I guess Sproles is a WR now.

Anyway WTF is the point?

There isn't one. They're just trying to desperately deflect from their losing "argument"

Jay3
01-31-2012, 10:30 AM
Sproles also had 86 catches this year, and had more receiving yards than rushing. So I guess Sproles is a WR now.

Anyway WTF is the point?

I think it started as an attempt to say Tebow was surrounded by very strong rushing backs at Florida, and it was not because of Tebow that Florida had success.

And so I guess one of the examples of that was that Florida had a WR running the ball a lot. Somehow that was supposed to illustrate that Tebow was surrounded by great running backs.

But Harvin was not a "running back" in any conventional sense. He was listed as WR, lined up as a starting WR. They had him run the ball just like Royal sometimes does, and now Aaron Hernandez often does for the Patriots.

But he was never a workhorse, and his high yards per carry shows he was used on a lot of "big play" opportunities and jet sweeps.

I agree he's a special player, and one of the most gifted running back-type receivers. But for the original point? Whiff.

Jay3
01-31-2012, 10:31 AM
One time the started running Percy between the tackles like Tebow does, and Harvin came out and said he wasn't going to do it anymore. The pounding is too much, he said.

It gets pretty vicious in there, up the middle.

BroncoBeavis
01-31-2012, 10:35 AM
I think it started as an attempt to say Tebow was surrounded by very strong rushing backs at Florida, and it was not because of Tebow that Florida had success

Ok, so Tebow's success at QB and highest passer rating in SEC history was aided by the fact that his top wideout was really a running back and the rest of his receivers weren't really talented enough for the NFL.

Got it. Moving on.

TheReverend
01-31-2012, 10:43 AM
<table class="tbl-sports" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%;"><tbody><tr class="th-sports" bgcolor="#ffffff"><td>33</td><td nowrap="nowrap">Kestahn Moore (http://www.gatorzone.com/football/bios.php?year=2008&player_id=65)</td><td>RB</td><td nowrap="nowrap">5' 10"</td><td>212</td><td>SR</td><td>4L</td><td>Arlington, Texas/Mansfield Summit</td></tr> <tr class="th-sports" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><td>44</td><td nowrap="nowrap">Ean McQuay (http://www.gatorzone.com/football/bios.php?year=2008&player_id=161)</td><td>RB</td><td nowrap="nowrap">5' 8"</td><td>168</td><td>RFR</td><td>SQ</td><td>Havana/Florida High</td></tr> <tr class="th-sports" bgcolor="#ffffff"><td>3</td><td nowrap="nowrap">Chris Rainey (http://www.gatorzone.com/football/bios.php?year=2008&player_id=144)</td><td>RB</td><td nowrap="nowrap">5' 9"</td><td>185</td><td>RFR</td><td>1L</td><td>Lakeland/Lakeland</td></tr> <tr class="th-sports" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><td>21</td><td nowrap="nowrap">Emmanuel Moody (http://www.gatorzone.com/football/bios.php?year=2008&player_id=158)</td><td>RB</td><td nowrap="nowrap">6' 0"</td><td>210</td><td>RSO</td><td>1L</td><td>Coppell, Texas/Southern Cal</td></tr> <tr class="th-sports" bgcolor="#ffffff"><td>20</td><td nowrap="nowrap">Christopher Scott (http://www.gatorzone.com/football/bios.php?year=2008&player_id=177)</td><td>RB</td><td nowrap="nowrap">6' 0"</td><td>205</td><td>RJR</td><td>TR</td><td>Englewood/Lemon Bay/Santa Fe C.C.</td></tr> <tr class="th-sports" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><td>1</td><td nowrap="nowrap">Percy Harvin (http://www.gatorzone.com/football/bios.php?year=2008&player_id=35)</td><td>RB/WR</td><td nowrap="nowrap">5' 11"</td><td>195</td><td>JR</td><td>3L</td><td>Virginia Beach, Va./Landstown</td></tr> <tr class="th-sports" bgcolor="#ffffff"><td>22</td><td nowrap="nowrap">Cade Holliday (http://www.gatorzone.com/football/bios.php?year=2008&player_id=41)</td><td>S</td><td nowrap="nowrap">5' 11"</td><td>195</td><td>RJR</td><td>3L</td><td>Gainesville/Green Hope (N.C.)</td></tr> <tr class="th-sports" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><td>24</td><td nowrap="nowrap">John Curtis (http://www.gatorzone.com/football/bios.php?year=2008&player_id=23)</td><td>S</td><td nowrap="nowrap">6' 2"</td><td>215</td><td>RSR</td><td>1L</td><td>Rockledge/Cocoa Beach</td></tr> <tr class="th-sports" bgcolor="#ffffff"><td>10</td><td nowrap="nowrap">Will Hill (http://www.gatorzone.com/football/bios.php?year=2008&player_id=185)</td><td>S</td><td nowrap="nowrap">6' 1"</td><td>203</td><td>FR</td><td>1L</td><td>West Orange, N.J./St. Peter's Preparatory</td></tr> <tr class="th-sports" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><td>35</td><td nowrap="nowrap">Ahmad Black (http://www.gatorzone.com/football/bios.php?year=2008&player_id=118)</td><td>S</td><td nowrap="nowrap">5' 9"</td><td>190</td><td>SO</td><td>1L</td><td>Lakeland/Lakeland</td></tr> <tr class="th-sports" bgcolor="#ffffff"><td>46</td><td nowrap="nowrap">Cody Worton (http://www.gatorzone.com/football/bios.php?year=2008&player_id=113)</td><td>S</td><td nowrap="nowrap">6' 2"</td><td>205</td><td>RSO</td><td>SQ</td><td>Homestead, Fla./South Dade</td></tr> <tr class="th-sports" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><td>7</td><td nowrap="nowrap">Justin Williams (http://www.gatorzone.com/football/bios.php?year=2008&player_id=101)</td><td>S</td><td nowrap="nowrap">6' 1"</td><td>205</td><td>RSO</td><td>2L</td><td>Folkston, Ga./Charlton County</td></tr> <tr class="th-sports" bgcolor="#ffffff"><td>31</td><td nowrap="nowrap">Bryan Thomas (http://www.gatorzone.com/football/bios.php?year=2008&player_id=94)</td><td>S</td><td nowrap="nowrap">6' 1"</td><td>205</td><td>RSO</td><td>1L</td><td>Zephyrhills, Fla./Zephyrhills</td></tr> <tr class="th-sports" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><td>21</td><td nowrap="nowrap">Major Wright (http://www.gatorzone.com/football/bios.php?year=2008&player_id=150)</td><td>S</td><td nowrap="nowrap">6' 0"</td><td>200</td><td>SO</td><td>2L</td><td>Miramar/St. Thomas Aquinas</td></tr> <tr class="th-sports" bgcolor="#ffffff"><td>20</td><td nowrap="nowrap">Dorian Munroe (http://www.gatorzone.com/football/bios.php?year=2008&player_id=67)</td><td>S</td><td nowrap="nowrap">5' 11"</td><td>205</td><td>RJR</td><td>2L</td><td>Miami/Coral Reef</td></tr> <tr class="th-sports" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><td>84</td><td nowrap="nowrap">Tate Casey (http://www.gatorzone.com/football/bios.php?year=2008&player_id=15)</td><td>TE</td><td nowrap="nowrap">6' 6"</td><td>251</td><td>RSR</td><td>4L</td><td>Longview, Texas/Longview</td></tr> <tr class="th-sports" bgcolor="#ffffff"><td>81</td><td nowrap="nowrap">Aaron Hernandez (http://www.gatorzone.com/football/bios.php?year=2008&player_id=120)</td><td>TE</td><td nowrap="nowrap">6' 3"</td><td>255</td><td>SO</td><td>2L</td><td>Bristol, Conn./Bristol Central</td></tr> <tr class="th-sports" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><td>7</td><td nowrap="nowrap">Cornelius Ingram (http://www.gatorzone.com/football/bios.php?year=2008&player_id=45)</td><td>TE</td><td nowrap="nowrap">6' 4"</td><td>245</td><td>RSR</td><td>3L</td><td>Hawthorne/Hawthorne</td></tr> <tr class="th-sports" bgcolor="#ffffff"><td>82</td><td nowrap="nowrap">Christopher Coleman (http://www.gatorzone.com/football/bios.php?year=2008&player_id=159)</td><td>TE</td><td nowrap="nowrap">6' 3"</td><td>245</td><td>RSO</td><td>SQ</td><td>Lake City/Lake City/Santa Fe CC</td></tr> <tr class="th-sports" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><td>88</td><td nowrap="nowrap">Paul Wilson (http://www.gatorzone.com/football/bios.php?year=2008&player_id=126)</td><td>WR</td><td nowrap="nowrap">6' 0"</td><td>190</td><td>RFR</td><td>SQ</td><td>Lakeland/Lakeland</td></tr> <tr class="th-sports" bgcolor="#ffffff"><td>3</td><td nowrap="nowrap">Brandon Frazier (http://www.gatorzone.com/football/bios.php?year=2008&player_id=135)</td><td>WR</td><td nowrap="nowrap">6' 3"</td><td>200</td><td>RSO</td><td>SQ</td><td>Jacksonville/Samuel W. Wolfson</td></tr> <tr class="th-sports" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><td>6</td><td nowrap="nowrap">Deonte Thompson (http://www.gatorzone.com/football/bios.php?year=2008&player_id=146)</td><td>WR</td><td nowrap="nowrap">6' 0"</td><td>195</td><td>RFR</td><td>1L</td><td>Belle Glade/Glades Central</td></tr> <tr class="th-sports" bgcolor="#ffffff"><td>82</td><td nowrap="nowrap">Omarius Hines (http://www.gatorzone.com/football/bios.php?year=2008&player_id=186)</td><td>WR</td><td nowrap="nowrap">6' 1"</td><td>205</td><td>FR</td><td>HS</td><td>Corsicana, Texas/Corsicana</td></tr> <tr class="th-sports" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><td>9</td><td nowrap="nowrap">Louis Murphy (http://www.gatorzone.com/football/bios.php?year=2008&player_id=68)</td><td>WR</td><td nowrap="nowrap">6' 3"</td><td>205</td><td>SR</td><td>4L</td><td>St. Petersburg/Lakewood</td></tr> <tr class="th-sports" bgcolor="#ffffff"><td>16</td><td nowrap="nowrap">Carl Moore (http://www.gatorzone.com/football/bios.php?year=2008&player_id=174)</td><td>WR</td><td nowrap="nowrap">6' 3"</td><td>220</td><td>JR</td><td>1L</td><td>Rancho Cordova, Calif./Cordova (Sierra C.C.)</td></tr> <tr class="th-sports" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><td>11</td><td nowrap="nowrap">Riley Cooper (http://www.gatorzone.com/football/bios.php?year=2008&player_id=19)</td><td>WR</td><td nowrap="nowrap">6' 3"</td><td>215</td><td>JR</td><td>3L</td><td>Clearwater, Fla./Central Catholic</td></tr> <tr class="th-sports" bgcolor="#ffffff"><td>83</td><td nowrap="nowrap">David Nelson (http://www.gatorzone.com/football/bios.php?year=2008&player_id=70)</td><td>WR</td><td nowrap="nowrap">6' 5"</td><td>215</td><td>RJR</td><td>2L</td><td>Wichita Falls, Texas/Rider</td></tr> <tr class="th-sports" bgcolor="#eeeeee"><td>18</td><td nowrap="nowrap">T.J. Lawrence (http://www.gatorzone.com/football/bios.php?year=2008&player_id=189)</td><td>WR</td><td nowrap="nowrap">6' 1"</td><td>185</td><td>FR</td><td>HS</td><td>Lakeland/Kathleen</td></tr> <tr class="th-sports" bgcolor="#ffffff"><td>85</td><td nowrap="nowrap">Frankie Hammond, Jr. (http://www.gatorzone.com/football/bios.php?year=2008&player_id=184)</td><td>WR</td><td nowrap="nowrap">6' 0"</td><td>170</td><td>FR</td><td>HS</td><td>Hollywood/Hallandale</td></tr></tbody></table>




Percy, Murphy and Hernandez are the only ones I'm aware of that made the jump to the NFL level (and Andre Caldwell the year prior).

Not too bad, but hardly carrying him.

Boltjolt
01-31-2012, 11:18 AM
Sproles also had 86 catches this year, and had more receiving yards than rushing. So I guess Sproles is a WR now.

Anyway WTF is the point?

Perfect! "Beavis" is lost!!

If you dont know why or what we are talking about, which is the third time you have said that then why are you even replying? Go back and find the point and the statenent that MacGoober made that started this.

Boltjolt
01-31-2012, 11:23 AM
I think it started as an attempt to say Tebow was surrounded by very strong rushing backs at Florida, and it was not because of Tebow that Florida had success.

And so I guess one of the examples of that was that Florida had a WR running the ball a lot. Somehow that was supposed to illustrate that Tebow was surrounded by great running backs.

But Harvin was not a "running back" in any conventional sense. He was listed as WR, lined up as a starting WR. They had him run the ball just like Royal sometimes does, and now Aaron Hernandez often does for the Patriots.

But he was never a workhorse, and his high yards per carry shows he was used on a lot of "big play" opportunities and jet sweeps.

I agree he's a special player, and one of the most gifted running back-type receivers. But for the original point? Whiff.


Kinda sorta but not really. It was stated that Harvin played a lot of RB and MacGoober said he never was a RB so a video was posted plus some stats showing he played a lot of RB and now a roster saying he was a RB/WR.

Ill give you everytime that Tebow was an outstanding college QB and he was accurate there. But this isnt college anymore and the players are much beter and now he isnt accurate trying to play a more conventional type of offense. Sure they can keep using him as they are which is a lot like college but he isnt going to last very long being used that way and only being a 46% passer isnt going to cut it either.

As a Charger fan i hope they start him next year.

bendog
01-31-2012, 11:26 AM
wow, this thread's like being drunk. And not in the good way.

oubronco
01-31-2012, 11:29 AM
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Rc8k_D3yYoE/Tw4IyOKMysI/AAAAAAAAAls/awgasVzJMfA/s1600/Stephen-Colbert-Popcorn.gif

BroncoBuff
01-31-2012, 07:48 PM
At the very least , we should all be able to agree that, regardless of their relative value as college QBs, Cam Newton was ranked far higher than Tim Tebow on draft boards and unanimously believed the better pro prospect.

That's reality.

Dedhed
01-31-2012, 08:35 PM
At the very least , we should all be able to agree that, regardless of their relative value as college QBs, Cam Newton was ranked far higher than Tim Tebow on draft boards and unanimously believed the better pro prospect.

That's reality.
You know what else is reality. Newton watched Tebow in the playoffs.

Missouribronc
01-31-2012, 08:37 PM
At the very least , we should all be able to agree that, regardless of their relative value as college QBs, Cam Newton was ranked far higher than Tim Tebow on draft boards and unanimously believed the better pro prospect.

That's reality.

And performed much better as well, last year...

underrated29
01-31-2012, 09:24 PM
All those are true, but cam was also more polished as well. That is why I never understand people arguments here.


Cam was better, was ranked higher, etc etc etc. Yeah, so what. He was polished and expected to do that. That is why he was an unquestioned top 10 pick...


Tebow- NO ONE- repeat NO ONE on EARTH thought tebow was polished and ready to be a top 10 pick. NO ONE expected tebow to come in right away and be good. TIM TEBOW IS THE BIGGEST PROJECT PLAYER IN THE HISTORY OF THE NFL!

Yet for some reason, people seem to forget that, I do not know why, and just move straight on to the Cam was ranked higher, and played better.




Well, DUH!



Its like saying my F14 Tomcat is going to out fly and maneuver your prototype plane. Of course it is. One is ready for action right away, there was never questions about it. The other not so much, but nonetheless was thrown into action anyway. It is such a dumb and silly argument.

BroncoBeavis
01-31-2012, 10:00 PM
Kinda sorta but not really. It was stated that Harvin played a lot of RB and MacGoober said he never was a RB so a video was posted plus some stats showing he played a lot of RB and now a roster saying he was a RB/WR.

Ill give you everytime that Tebow was an outstanding college QB and he was accurate there. But this isnt college anymore and the players are much beter and now he isnt accurate trying to play a more conventional type of offense. Sure they can keep using him as they are which is a lot like college but he isnt going to last very long being used that way and only being a 46% passer isnt going to cut it either.

As a Charger fan i hope they start him next year.

Only a Powder Blue fan could look at this offense and use the word 'conventional'

DBroncos4life
01-31-2012, 10:02 PM
You know what else is reality. Newton watched Tebow in the playoffs.

Some teams have to play in a division that takes more then 8 games to win it. The team played great and much better under Tebow but lets not act like this team is a world beater or Tebow is right now.

Jay3
02-01-2012, 05:20 AM
Some teams have to play in a division that takes more then 8 games to win it. The team played great and much better under Tebow but lets not act like this team is a world beater or Tebow is right now.

There ain't no division you can win with 6 wins, though.

Cam played on a bad team, but he himself showed an amazing ability to not win games. There were many times where I thought for sure they'd win, and he would disappear and finish out with a whimper.

He'll get better. But that's on him. Stats aren't everything.

Jay3
02-01-2012, 05:22 AM
Kinda sorta but not really. It was stated that Harvin played a lot of RB and MacGoober said he never was a RB so a video was posted plus some stats showing he played a lot of RB and now a roster saying he was a RB/WR.

Yeah, really. Go back and look at why Harvin was being discussed in a Cam Newton thread to begin with. In an effort to detract from Tebow, it was stated he was surrounded by great running backs in college.

jhns
02-01-2012, 06:07 AM
At the very least , we should all be able to agree that, regardless of their relative value as college QBs, Cam Newton was ranked far higher than Tim Tebow on draft boards and unanimously believed the better pro prospect.

That's reality.

Who cares what people though as they were coming out of college? Brady went in the 6th...

Tebow took the second worst team in the league to a playoff win. He did this after being spotted a 1-4 record. Cam started from day one and lost a ton with the worst team in the league. Tebow easily outperformed Newton. Both have a lot of growing to do though. It really isn't about right now. What really matters is what each develops into after a few years of experience.

jhns
02-01-2012, 06:11 AM
There ain't no division you can win with 6 wins, though.

Cam played on a bad team, but he himself showed an amazing ability to not win games. There were many times where I thought for sure they'd win, and he would disappear and finish out with a whimper.

He'll get better. But that's on him. Stats aren't everything.

Yup. People are actually falling for the Orton again. We just watched this exact same type of performance screw this team for over two years. Put up pretty stats but never finish the game. Football is all about what you do late in the game. The majority of games will ne close. Guys that pull out the close games late, are the guys with good records. Cam turned it over a ton and was not at all clutch.

DBroncos4life
02-01-2012, 06:46 AM
There ain't no division you can win with 6 wins, though.

Cam played on a bad team, but he himself showed an amazing ability to not win games. There were many times where I thought for sure they'd win, and he would disappear and finish out with a whimper.

He'll get better. But that's on him. Stats aren't everything.

The team won 1 game the year before. Both QB's improved the overall record of the team from the year before. That's all you can ask for when your team is picking in the top 5 from the year before.

BroncoBeavis
02-01-2012, 07:06 AM
Who cares what people though as they were coming out of college? Brady went in the 6th...

Tebow took the second worst team in the league to a playoff win. He did this after being spotted a 1-4 record. Cam started from day one and lost a ton with the worst team in the league. Tebow easily outperformed Newton. Both have a lot of growing to do though. It really isn't about right now. What really matters is what each develops into after a few years of experience.

I think both QB's have tremendous upside. I think the downside of Cam though was shown in the way he packed it in and showed huge character issues at UF. The time will come, likely next year, when he'll face serious personal adversity. If he reacts the way he did @ UF, he'll have a hard time making it in the NFL.

Meanwhile that week before the PIT game had to have been unbearable for Tebow. It was hard to stomach some of that **** even as a fan. We gave a kid a 1-4 team. He eeks them into the playoffs, and (setting aside the OM) the media spends all week talking about benching him during his first playoff game for Brady Quinn. Brady Quinn.

Tebow comes out firing, despite another completely lackluster offensive plan and puts out the best game of his career. While Mike n Mike were predicting it would be his last game as a Bronco.

Think about that. You can't draft that kind of poise. You don't know it until you see it. Had a Steeler fan basically tell me after that game. "Tebow just has 'IT'" Big Ben has "IT" Tom Brady has "IT" You can't even put a finger on what 'IT' is, but Tebow has 'IT' You put the game in Tebow's hands at the end, and good things are going to happen"

bendog
02-01-2012, 08:20 AM
Tebow comes out firing, despite another completely lackluster offensive plan and puts out the best game of his career.
--
Absolutely, Tebow checked off an audibled on those passes.

Butterscotch Stallion
02-01-2012, 08:26 AM
Tebow comes out firing, despite another completely lackluster offensive plan and puts out the best game of his career.
--
Absolutely, Tebow checked off an audibled on those passes.

the first one, the huge one on third down that turned the entire game around was a scramble drill. That's impressive for a young qb in his first playoff game. Thats.what winners do. They make impactful plays when it matters most.

BroncoBuff
02-01-2012, 09:09 AM
Who cares what people thought as they were coming out of college?

This whole thread cares ... the argument (such as it is) centers on their collegiate performances, and which guy was helped more by his supporting cast.

Dumb duuumb argument ... supporting casts are completely irrelevant. NFL scouts know QB talent when they see it. Ryan Fitzpatrick is from Harvard, John Skelton from Fordham, Cutler from Vanderbilt, Tarvaris from I don't even know ... Kurt Warner was from nowhere and Flacco was a Blue freaking Hen fervevvinsake.


And yeeeeeees Dedhed, Cam watched Tim in the playoffs. Why? Saints >>> Raiders, Falcons >>> Chargers.

Tebow's win streak was a thrill ride, but he shat the bed in the finale against the chefs. Just 3 points on 6/22 for 50 yards - at home - against a bad team - with the division and playoffs on the line ... that's a train wreck. Of course, the faithful among us know that loss was a lesson in humilty for Tim ... to shake Kyle Orton's hand in shame after such a horrific performance. But then (of course), thirty minutes later, the clouds parted and our Saviour smiled yet again upon him. And magically everyone forgot all about 6-22 ... what might have been the worst game by a starting QB in franchise history: 6-22 for 50 yards and just 3 points against a bad team ... in a huge game at home - in which both the defense and ground game were solid.

jhns
02-01-2012, 09:14 AM
This whole thread cares ... the argument (such as it is) centers on their collegiate performances, and which guy was helped more by his supporting cast.

Dumb duuumb argument ... supporting casts are completely irrelevant. NFL scouts know QB talent when they see it. Ryan Fitzpatrick is from Harvard, John Skelton from Fordham, Cutler from Vanderbilt, Tarvaris from I don't even know ... Kurt Warner was from nowhere and Flacco was a Blue freaking Hen fervevvinsake.


And yeeeeeees Dedhed, Cam watched Tim in the playoffs. Why? Saints >>> Raiders, Falcons >>> Chargers.

Tebow's win streak was a thrill ride, but he shat the bed in the finale against the chefs. Just 3 points on 6/22 for 50 yards - at home - against a bad team - with the division and playoffs on the line ... that's a train wreck. Of course, the faithful among us know that loss was a lesson in humilty for Tim ... to shake Kyle Orton's hand in shame after such a horrific performance. But then (of course), thirty minutes later, the clouds parted and our Saviour smiled yet again upon him. And magically everyone forgot all about 6-22.

NFL scouts know QBs, which is why Leaf was a top pick and Brady went in the sixth. So, again, who cares what their pre draft grades were?

No one forgot that performance. Smart people just realize young players have bad days. Newton did the same against very basic pro bowl defenses.

Dedhed
02-01-2012, 09:16 AM
Some teams have to play in a division that takes more then 8 games to win it. So the Panthers won enough games to win the AFC West? Derp.

BroncoBeavis
02-01-2012, 09:20 AM
what might have been the worst game by a starting QB in franchise history: 6-22 for 50 yards and just 3 points against a bad team ... in a huge game at home - in which both the defense and ground game were solid.


Almost like when KO went 9/28 against the Chiefs the year before, got benched shortly after, then returned to glory (after his trade fell through) only to redeem himself by going 1-4, and opening the season against Oakland with as many points off his turnovers as his offense was able to muster.

Almost like it... I guess because Tebow put together a great game in response. Orton just Ortoned all over himself.

Rookies are known to have bad games like that. Not sure what your boy KO's excuse was.

KO5K
02-01-2012, 09:23 AM
And magically everyone forgot all about 6-22 ... what might have been the worst game by a starting QB in franchise history: 6-22 for 50 yards and just 3 points against a bad team ... in a huge game at home - in which both the defense and ground game were solid.

Maybe because a week later he played his best game of his career and won this franchise only it's second playoff win in the last decade...

BroncoBuff
02-01-2012, 09:29 AM
No one forgot that performance. Smart people just realize young players have bad days. Newton did the same against very basic pro bowl defenses.

That was more than a "bad day." I just edited my post to add the reality it may have been the worst performance by a starting quarterback in franchise history. 6-22 and 50 yards - 3 total points - in a huge game - at home - against a bad team. AND in a game where both the defense and ground game came through solid.

The amnesia/excuse abuse for that game, it's fine I suppose, so be it. But I'm puzzled by the contrast between Tebow treatment and Cutler treatment. A Cutler game in 2008 in a VERY similar situation - Week 16 or 17 - at home - against the lowly Bills - with the division and playoffs on the line. Jay threw for a ton of yards and we were ahead, but the defense gave up a couple late 4th quarter TDs and we lost. People SAVAGED poor Jaybee cause he didn't march right down the field Elway-style and save the day. I mean people DAMNED and CURSED poor Jay-bee. Weird.

KO5K
02-01-2012, 09:33 AM
The amnesia/excuse abuse for that game, it's fine I suppose, so be it. But I'm puzzled by the contrast between Tebow treatment and Cutler treatment. A Cutler game in 2008 in a VERY similar situation - Week 16 or 17 - at home - against the lowly Bills - with the division and playoffs on the line. Jay threw for a ton of yards and we were ahead, but the defense gave up a couple late 4th quarter TDs and we lost. People SAVAGED poor Jaybee cause he didn't march right down the field Elway-style and save the day. I mean people DAMNED and CURSED poor Jay-bee. Weird.

Because that was the last memory of that season. If the Raiders had beaten the Chargers I'm certain Tebow would still being slaughtered for that performance.

But Tebow had a chance to redeem himself the week after, he did that and more...

Dedhed
02-01-2012, 09:33 AM
That was more than a "bad day." I just edited my post to add the reality it may have been the worst performance by a starting quarterback in franchise history. 6-22 and 50 yards - 3 total points - in a huge game - at home - against a bad team. AND in a game where both the defense and ground game came through solid.

The amnesia/excuse abuse for that game, it's fine I suppose, so be it. But I'm puzzled by the contrast between Tebow treatment and Cutler treatment. A Cutler game in 2008 in a VERY similar situation - Week 16 or 17 - at home - against the lowly Bills - with the division and playoffs on the line. Jay threw for a ton of yards and we were ahead, but the defense gave up a couple late 4th quarter TDs and we lost. People SAVAGED poor Jaybee cause he didn't march right down the field Elway-style and save the day. I mean people DAMNED and CURSED poor Jay-bee. Weird.Tebow led this team to it's first playoff win in 6 years, and people are still cursing him.

BroncoBuff
02-01-2012, 09:39 AM
Tebow led this team to it's first playoff win in 6 years, and people are still cursing him.

Very very few cursed Tebow, while on the other hand we were just a couple bodies shy of a lynch mob for Cutler that day. And you say "still" cursing him ... like I said, I don't remember much if any cursing. Although that's partly/largely because the Fade loss came just a few minutes later and we were in.

You and KO5 make a good point ,,, despite what I'm saying here, I don't curse Tebow for the chefs game because the Steelers OT, I think it makes my Top 10 alltime best Bronco finishes. Which is saying a lot.

BroncoBeavis
02-01-2012, 09:43 AM
That was more than a "bad day." I just edited my post to add the reality it may have been the worst performance by a starting quarterback in franchise history. 6-22 and 50 yards - 3 total points - in a huge game - at home - against a bad team. AND in a game where both the defense and ground game came through solid.

The amnesia/excuse abuse for that game, it's fine I suppose, so be it. But I'm puzzled by the contrast between Tebow treatment and Cutler treatment. A Cutler game in 2008 in a VERY similar situation - Week 16 or 17 - at home - against the lowly Bills - with the division and playoffs on the line. Jay threw for a ton of yards and we were ahead, but the defense gave up a couple late 4th quarter TDs and we lost. People SAVAGED poor Jaybee cause he didn't march right down the field Elway-style and save the day. I mean people DAMNED and CURSED poor Jay-bee. Weird.

I'd much rather have Tim's Chefs playoff implications performance (in his first season's worth of starts with no offseason, thrown in midseason) than Kyle's end of 2009 effort under similar circumstances where he essentially scored 14 points for the other team with two 2nd half pick-sixes.

Kyle's turnovers were often the difference. That was also the case at the beginning of this season.

Dedhed
02-01-2012, 10:40 AM
Very very few cursed Tebow,

Apparently you haven't been on the Mane much.

jhns
02-01-2012, 10:51 AM
That was more than a "bad day." I just edited my post to add the reality it may have been the worst performance by a starting quarterback in franchise history. 6-22 and 50 yards - 3 total points - in a huge game - at home - against a bad team. AND in a game where both the defense and ground game came through solid.

The amnesia/excuse abuse for that game, it's fine I suppose, so be it. But I'm puzzled by the contrast between Tebow treatment and Cutler treatment. A Cutler game in 2008 in a VERY similar situation - Week 16 or 17 - at home - against the lowly Bills - with the division and playoffs on the line. Jay threw for a ton of yards and we were ahead, but the defense gave up a couple late 4th quarter TDs and we lost. People SAVAGED poor Jaybee cause he didn't march right down the field Elway-style and save the day. I mean people DAMNED and CURSED poor Jay-bee. Weird.

Orton had just as bad of games. You are not living in reality.

You are talking to the wrong person about Cutler hate.

jhns
02-01-2012, 10:53 AM
Very very few cursed Tebow, while on the other hand we were just a couple bodies shy of a lynch mob for Cutler that day. And you say "still" cursing him ... like I said, I don't remember much if any cursing. Although that's partly/largely because the Fade loss came just a few minutes later and we were in.

You and KO5 make a good point ,,, despite what I'm saying here, I don't curse Tebow for the chefs game because the Steelers OT, I think it makes my Top 10 alltime best Bronco finishes. Which is saying a lot.

What? There were a lot of people claiming Tebow was finished after that game...

BroncoBuff
02-01-2012, 10:56 AM
Apparently you haven't been on the Mane much.

I wasn't around much for awhile there (between the Josh debacle in London and training camp this year), but I was referring specifically to very little cursing of Tebow for the KC game. Though admittedly that was largely because the Fade choked just a few minutes later, rendering Tebow's performance irrelevant, because we were in anyway. Glad I could clear that up.

jhns
02-01-2012, 10:56 AM
I wasn't around much for awhile there (between Josh's London cheating scandal and training camp this year), but I was referring specifically to very little cursing of Tebow for the KC game. Though admittedly that was largely because the fade choked just a few minutes later, rendering Tebow's performance irrelevant, because we were in. Glad I could clear that up.

Again, there were a lot of people claiming he was finished. There was a lot of hate for that game. I can bump some threads if you like.

It is pretty obvious that you weren't here as you claim to know what was going on...

BroncoBuff
02-01-2012, 11:07 AM
It is pretty obvious that you weren't here as you claim to know what was going on...

You do realize this isn't the only place where Tebow and the Broncos are discussed, don't you?


Again, there were a lot of people claiming he was finished. There was a lot of hate for that game. I can bump some threads if you like.

That doesn't make much sense ... no, don't bump threads, but It'd be pretty weird if people griped about Tebow even one-tenth as much as they talked about the Steelers, the upcoming playoff game and the division title. Like I said: as bad as he played, 30 minutes later it didn't matter. His performance became utterly irrelevant to the team's fate.

jhns
02-01-2012, 11:16 AM
You do realize this isn't the only place where Tebow and the Broncos are discussed, don't you?




That doesn't make much sense ... no, don't bump threads, but It'd be pretty weird if people griped about Tebow even one-tenth as much as they talked about the Steelers, the upcoming playoff game and the division title. Like I said: as bad as he played, 30 minutes later it didn't matter. His performance became utterly irrelevant to the team's fate.

You do realize even a lot of the media was claiming he was going to get benched for Quinn, right? This forum blew up with many claiming Tebow was finished. What, you found one forum that didn't care and feel this makes us wrong?

Where exactly were you that week? Cuba?

BroncoBuff
02-01-2012, 01:03 PM
You do realize even a lot of the media was claiming he was going to get benched for Quinn, right?

Nobody credible reported there was any chance he'd be benched that week, though there was talk he might be yanked mid-game if he played poorly. jhns, if you want to marginalize/belittle somebody you disagree with, and you have a round or two in your belt, don't overplay it. Nobody with credibility reported he would be not start against the Steelers.


This forum blew up with many claiming Tebow was finished. What, you found one forum that didn't care and feel this makes us wrong?

You do realize forums are not the the only place where Tebow and the Broncos are discussed, don't you? Besides, I'd never go to another forum. But arrrggghhh, why are we even talking about all this?!? You Tebow people, just face facts:
1: Tebow's quarterbacking skills are sub-par by NFL standards
2: Tebow's intangibles are through the roof
3: It remains to be seen whether:
. . . a) he can develop into an adequate passer, or in the alternative,
. . . b) whether this unique offense we're running can be effective over the long haul.

There, that wasn't so hard (oh and 4: Don't compare Tebow to Newton, it makes you look silly).


Where exactly were you that week? Cuba?
How DARE you accuse me! As any law-abiding patriot knows, the Freedom to Travel to Cuba Act (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_to_Travel_to_Cuba_Act) is stalled in congressional committee. Until it moves through BOTH houses, and is signed into law by PRESIDENT Barack Obama, all of Cuba (save Guantanemo Naval Base) is off limits to any and every self-respecting, law-abiding, flag-waving American. Of which I am one!

You've got some nerve.

kamakazi_kal
02-01-2012, 01:06 PM
i think he had a great year.

really the PB is all fluff. The broncos have way more talent around tebow that the panters have around newton IMO.

jhns
02-01-2012, 01:12 PM
Nobody credible reported there was any chance he'd be benched that week, though there was talk he might be yanked mid-game if he played poorly. jhns, if you want to marginalize/belittle somebody you disagree with, and you have a round or two in your belt, don't overplay it. Nobody with credibility reported he would be not start against the Steelers.




You do realize forums are not the the only place where Tebow and the Broncos are discussed, don't you? Besides, I'd never go to another forum. But arrrggghhh, why are we even talking about all this?!? You Tebow people, just face facts:
1: Tebow's quarterbacking skills are sub-par by NFL standards
2: Tebow's intangibles are through the roof
3: It remains to be seen whether:
. . . a) he can develop into an adequate passer, or in the alternative,
. . . b) whether this unique offense we're running can be effective over the long haul.

There, that wasn't so hard (oh and 4: Don't compare Tebow to Newton, it makes you look silly).



How DARE you accuse me! As any law-abiding patriot knows, the Freedom to Travel to Cuba Act (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_to_Travel_to_Cuba_Act) is stalled in congressional committee. Until it moves through BOTH houses, and is signed into law by PRESIDENT Barack Obama, all of Cuba (save Guantanemo Naval Base) is off limits to any and every self-respecting, law-abiding, flag-waving American. Of which I am one!

You've got some nerve.

None of that changes the fact that there were a **** ton of people fraking out about that game. Rational people didn't freak out about Cutlers earlier performance. I know I didn't.

I agree with a lot of the middle of this post. Tebow is better than Newton right now though. His style of play leads to more wins. We don't make the playoffs with Newton. The defense wouldn't have held up.

I actually thought we could travel to Cuba now. Shows how much I pay attention.

DBroncos4life
02-01-2012, 01:12 PM
So the Panthers won enough games to win the AFC West? Derp.

The AFC West is better then the NFC South? DERP is ****ing right. Your reddit comments are really hurting me jack ass.

http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/35095/2011-strength-of-schedule

BroncoBeavis
02-01-2012, 01:16 PM
Nobody credible reported there was any chance he'd be benched that week, though there was talk he might be yanked mid-game if he played poorly. jhns, if you want to marginalize/belittle somebody you disagree with, and you have a round or two in your belt, don't overplay it. Nobody with credibility reported he would be not start against the Steelers.




You do realize forums are not the the only place where Tebow and the Broncos are discussed, don't you? Besides, I'd never go to another forum. But arrrggghhh, why are we even talking about all this?!? You Tebow people, just face facts:
1: Tebow's quarterbacking skills are sub-par by NFL standards
2: Tebow's intangibles are through the roof
3: It remains to be seen whether:
. . . a) he can develop into an adequate passer, or in the alternative,
. . . b) whether this unique offense we're running can be effective over the long haul.

There, that wasn't so hard (oh and 4: Don't compare Tebow to Newton, it makes you look silly).



How DARE you accuse me! As any law-abiding patriot knows, the Freedom to Travel to Cuba Act (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_to_Travel_to_Cuba_Act) is stalled in congressional committee. Until it moves through BOTH houses, and is signed into law by PRESIDENT Barack Obama, all of Cuba (save Guantanemo Naval Base) is off limits to any and every self-respecting, law-abiding, flag-waving American. Of which I am one!

You've got some nerve.

Really, you don't remember all those media reports about Quinn getting half the reps in practice before the Steelers game? Was complete BS. But that never stopped the media when it comes to Tebow.

KO5K
02-01-2012, 01:31 PM
The AFC West is better then the NFC South? DERP is ****ing right. Your reddit comments are really hurting me jack ass.

http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/35095/2011-strength-of-schedule

That doesn't prove jack ****, that's based on 2010 games, before the season started.

Here's the strength of schedule stats for this year, after the season ended:

http://www.bloggingtheboys.com/2012/1/3/2676144/early-look-2012-nfl-strength-of-schedule-cowboys-giants-eagles

And hey look! Broncos with the #2 hardest schedule and there's the Panthers all the way down at #10.

GTFO, you ****ing moron.

bendog
02-01-2012, 01:32 PM
you guys really believe this **** don't you. Astounding.

jhns
02-01-2012, 01:33 PM
you guys really believe this **** don't you. Astounding.

Not everyone can be as dumb as you. Most of us took advantage of the education this great country provides

BroncoBuff
02-01-2012, 01:53 PM
Really, you don't remember all those media reports about Quinn getting half the reps in practice before the Steelers game? Was complete BS. But that never stopped the media when it comes to Tebow.
How about that, the Quinn talk was all a smokescreen? Interesting.

But to be clear, I wasn't talking about whether it was acknowledged he played poorly, nor was I talking about prepping Quinn, or even that Tebow might be benched. What I was talking about was fan sentiment toward the guy and how it contrasted with the attitude toward Cutler.

Can you imagine how Cutler would have been savaged had he played that badly, if there was talk of benching him? I can't even imagine ... pitchforks and torches, storm the ramparts, wailing and howling "Bust! We wasted a first-round pick!" But with this guy there seems no anger, no frustration or animus. None toward him anyway.

bendog
02-01-2012, 01:58 PM
Not everyone can be as dumb as you. Most of us took advantage of the education this great country provides

absolutely, jizz, the AFC west would just trounce the NFC south. It's elmentary. ****head

KO5K
02-01-2012, 02:00 PM
absolutely, jizz, the AFC west would just trounce the NFC south. It's elmentary. ****head

Each team plays ten games outside of their division.

The Broncos had the #2 hardest schedule according to opponent win-loss %.

The Panthers had the #10 hardest.

What's so hard to understand?

jhns
02-01-2012, 02:01 PM
absolutely, jizz, the AFC west would just trounce the NFC south. It's elmentary. ****head

What does this have to do with your lack of education?

jhns
02-01-2012, 02:03 PM
How about that, the Quinn talk was all a smokescreen? Interesting.

But to be clear, I wasn't talking about whether it was acknowledged he played poorly, nor was I talking about prepping Quinn, or even that Tebow might be benched. What I was talking about was fan sentiment toward the guy and how it contrasted with the attitude toward Cutler.

Can you imagine how Cutler would have been savaged had he played that badly, if there was talk of benching him? I can't even imagine ... pitchforks and torches, storm the ramparts, wailing and howling "Bust! We wasted a first-round pick!" But with this guy there seems no anger, no frustration or animus. None toward him anyway.

Umm, he is getting that reaction still. Are you not reading the threads? Again, who are you talking about? Your little office? You just described the exact reaction that the forums and media had.

I can give a lot of examples of the following:

I hate losing which is why I'm done with the Tebow experiment. He failed miserably the last two weeks. He came up really small on Sunday and got outplayed by Kyle Orton. Winning 7 of 8 got a lot of people thinking that Tebow played well but the reality is he never really played all that well other than some bursts here and there. That's not going to get it done in the NFL. You need your QB to be consistently good. I don't see any evidence that Tebow can be that guy. I was rooting for the kid too but reality has set in. You keep clinging to the mirage.

This was after we knew he had just taken the 1-4 team to a division win.

BroncoBuff
02-01-2012, 02:05 PM
That doesn't prove jack ****, that's based on 2010 games, before the season started.

Here's the strength of schedule stats for this year, after the season ended:

http://www.bloggingtheboys.com/2012/1/3/2676144/early-look-2012-nfl-strength-of-schedule-cowboys-giants-eagles

And hey look! Broncos with the #2 hardest schedule and there's the Panthers all the way down at #10.

GTFO, you ****ing moron.

Strength of schedule is not the point. It's strength of divisional opponents that I cited. Doesn't matter if they played contenders or patsies, they weren't gonna keep up with Brees and the Saints.

BroncoBeavis
02-01-2012, 02:18 PM
Strength of schedule is not the point. It's strength of divisional opponents that I cited. Doesn't matter if they played contenders or patsies, they weren't gonna keep up with Brees and the Saints.

Really, a 7-4 QB winning more with a tougher schedule than a 6-10 QB doesn't matter?

BroncoBuff
02-01-2012, 02:21 PM
Okay, yeah ... in that sense I suppose you have a point.

Tebow was better in that WE won more, but in any other way? Umm, errr ...... Uhh

jhns
02-01-2012, 02:22 PM
Okay, yeah ... in that sense I suppose you have a point.

Tebow was better in that WE won more, but in any other way? Umm, errr ...... Uhh

Do you think Newton wins this division, on this team?

BroncoBuff
02-01-2012, 02:27 PM
Now that's a good question. I'm thinking yes, definitely yes if he starts the year. If he comes in for Orton like Tebow did, honestly I'd say no, he would not.

jhns
02-01-2012, 02:33 PM
Well, it isn't worth arguing this point much, as neither side can prove anything. I would say there is no way this team wins with the way Newton played. Maybe if he was forced to be conservative like Tebow. This defense is still pretty bad. It can't handle the offense turning it over and throwing it all the time. This defense needed the run game we had. You can see what turnovers did to this team early and late. Newton turned it over far too much and didn't score enough for as much as he threw it. We also don't have the recievers they have. That all said, no one knows what he would look like in a conservative offense.

Tebow ran a game plan meant for winning with an inexperienced QB. Newton ran a game plan geared towards long term developement.

Jetmeck
02-01-2012, 05:21 PM
Can we all face the facts NEWTON was overhyped. Throwing for a lot of yards and picks and very few wins !

TonyR
02-01-2012, 05:46 PM
Each team plays ten games outside of their division.

The Broncos had the #2 hardest schedule according to opponent win-loss %.

The Panthers had the #10 hardest.

What's so hard to understand?

Sagarin has Denver's SOS as 10th and Carolina's as 28th, so you're right about that. But unfortunately your argument loses a little steam when you notice that Sagarin has Carolina ranked higher than Denver...

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/sagarin/nfl11.htm

TonyR
02-01-2012, 05:50 PM
I can give a lot of examples of the following:


Curious to see if you can form a coherent argument against any of my points in that post...

jhns
02-01-2012, 07:35 PM
Curious to see if you can form a coherent argument against any of my points in that post...

"I hate losing which is why I'm done with the Tebow experiment."

Tim Tebow is a winning QB. Are you being serious right now?

jhns
02-01-2012, 07:36 PM
Sagarin has Denver's SOS as 10th and Carolina's as 28th, so you're right about that. But unfortunately your argument loses a little steam when you notice that Sagarin has Carolina ranked higher than Denver...

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/sagarin/nfl11.htm

LOL

So they basically say they are wrong? Nice find...

Dedhed
02-01-2012, 09:24 PM
The AFC West is better then the NFC South? DERP is ****ing right. Your reddit comments are really hurting me jack ass.
Didn't read the link, but let me guess you posted something about the NFC being tougher, but failed to notice that the Broncos won more games and had a more difficult schedule than Carolina. Derp.

Dedhed
02-01-2012, 09:26 PM
Okay, yeah ... in that sense I suppose you have a point.

Tebow was better in that WE won more, but in any other way? Umm, errr ...... UhhAnd what other way matters more than winning. Seriously you people are off the wall with this image of a QB crap.

Missouribronc
02-01-2012, 09:29 PM
Ugh.

Newton is the better passer. Passers win long term.

This year was fun. It probably won't happen again unless the passing improves significantly.

Dedhed
02-01-2012, 09:30 PM
Sagarin has Denver's SOS as 10th and Carolina's as 28th, so you're right about that. But unfortunately your argument loses a little steam when you notice that Sagarin has Carolina ranked higher than Denver...

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/sagarin/nfl11.htm

So you're saying that because Tebow won more games with a worse team against better opponents, Cam is better. That is brilliant. No really, you are a genius.

Dedhed
02-01-2012, 09:31 PM
Ugh.

Newton is the better passer. Passers win long term.

This year was fun. It probably won't happen again unless the passing improves significantly.
Ah, yes, the classic move the goalposts argument. Nice one!

Missouribronc
02-01-2012, 09:34 PM
Ah, yes, the classic move the goalposts argument. Nice one!

I'm not moving the goalposts anywhere. Passers win in this league. Newton is clearly the superior passer.

Again, this season was a lot of fun, but this is a league where quarterbacks have to be proficient throwing the football. Winning in the manner Denver did this season is not sustainable, no matter what "winning" argument you throw at it.

Vince Young was categorized a "winner" too. So was Kyle Orton.

Dedhed
02-01-2012, 09:36 PM
[indent]1: Tebow's quarterbacking skills are sub-par by NFL standards
2: Tebow's intangibles are through the roof

Here's the crux of the issue. People are naive if they think that Intangibles are not a skill.

Dedhed
02-01-2012, 09:38 PM
I'm not moving the goalposts anywhere. Passers win in this league. Newton is clearly the superior passer.
You're absolutely moving the goalposts.
Tebow had more success this year leading his team to wins. You're moving the goalposts to next year so that this year doesn't really count.

Missouribronc
02-01-2012, 09:44 PM
You're absolutely moving the goalposts.
Tebow had more success this year leading his team to wins. You're moving the goalposts to next year so that this year doesn't really count.

First, for me to "move the goalposts" I'd have to have been making a specific argument earlier. I wasn't, so that's not really a valid argument.

That said, I saw this discussion as a long term projection based on what we saw this last year and overall rather than a knee-jerk reaction to this year.

If I were evaluating Tebow's season as a passer it would be a D- or an F. Newton would receive a C+ or a B. He's a clearly superior passer, and that, ultimately is more important in the long run.

Dedhed
02-01-2012, 09:57 PM
First, for me to "move the goalposts" I'd have to have been making a specific argument earlier. I wasn't, so that's not really a valid argument.

That said, I saw this discussion as a long term projection based on what we saw this last year and overall rather than a knee-jerk reaction to this year.

If I were evaluating Tebow's season as a passer it would be a D- or an F. Newton would receive a C+ or a B. He's a clearly superior passer, and that, ultimately is more important in the long run.

You're moving the argument into the future because the present doesn't fit your take. It's the same thing.

Leaf was clearly a superior passer to a lot of guys. How does the notion of douche nozzles fit into your "long term" theory?

Missouribronc
02-01-2012, 10:02 PM
You're moving the argument into the future because the present doesn't fit your take. It's the same thing.

Leaf was clearly a superior passer to a lot of guys. How does the notion of douche nozzles fit into your "long term" theory?

I'm "moving into the future" because there's no other place to go. Even if we talk about last season, Newton was a better passer, but Tebow won a few more games.

I don't even know what your second paragraph means other than you're grasping at straws....

What does Leaf have to do with either quarterback?

Missouribronc
02-01-2012, 10:16 PM
Just to show you how ridiculous this is Ryan Leaf didn't throw for more than 2,000 in one season and in three failed seasons threw for less than 4,000 total.

Newton threw for 4,000 in his first season.

Obviously, that comparison is absurd.

MagicHef
02-02-2012, 01:54 AM
Ugh.

Newton is the better passer. Passers win long term.

This year was fun. It probably won't happen again unless the passing improves significantly.

Better passer = more interceptions.

Jay3
02-02-2012, 04:04 AM
Ugh.

Newton is the better passer. Passers win long term.

This year was fun. It probably won't happen again unless the passing improves significantly.

They always hedge their bets, setting up their excuse in advance in case Tebow trolls them. :~ohyah!:

"What? I said if he improved he would be better!"

MagicHef
02-02-2012, 04:29 AM
They always hedge their bets, setting up their excuse in advance in case Tebow trolls them. :~ohyah!:

"What? I said if he improved he would be better!"

I have to admit, it made me just a little bit happier each time we won while Tebow threw for less than 50% (MIA, OAK, KC, NYJ, PIT) because I knew it was driving a certain segment of Bronco fans crazy.

jhns
02-02-2012, 06:10 AM
Ugh.

Newton is the better passer. Passers win long term.

This year was fun. It probably won't happen again unless the passing improves significantly.

You mean guys like Elway are really worse than Newton? Don't worry, everyone here knows you are an idiot.

TonyR
02-02-2012, 07:25 AM
So they basically say they are wrong? Nice find...

LOL No, they don't say that even a little bit. This is clearly too complicated for you. Sagarin is an unbiased, completely objective computer/mathematical model. It takes several factors into account, one of them being SOS. But SOS isn't the only factor. Margin of victory, for example, is also included.

So to clarify (i.e. "dumb down") for you, jhns, just because Denver's SOS is higher, and W/L is better, the model won't necessarily rank Denver higher. I know this is hard for you to wrap your little head around.

jhns
02-02-2012, 07:26 AM
LOL No, they don't say that even a little bit. This is clearly too complicated for you. Sagarin is an unbiased, completely objective computer/mathematical model. It takes several factors into account, one of them being SOS. But SOS isn't the only factor. Margin of victory, for example, is also included.

So to clarify (i.e. "dumb down") for you, jhns, just because Denver's SOS is higher, and W/L is better, the model won't necessarily rank Denver higher. I know this is hard for you to wrap your little head around.

Yeah! Winning more games with a harder schedule is clear proof that you are worse!

So intelligent...

Jay3
02-02-2012, 07:30 AM
LOL No, they don't say that even a little bit. This is clearly too complicated for you. Sagarin is an unbiased, completely objective computer/mathematical model. It takes several factors into account, one of them being SOS. But SOS isn't the only factor. Margin of victory, for example, is also included.

So to clarify (i.e. "dumb down") for you, jhns, just because Denver's SOS is higher, and W/L is better, the model won't necessarily rank Denver higher. I know this is hard for you to wrap your little head around.

So . . . . . Denver won more games than Carolina, with a worse team, against a harder schedule . . . . . but science sez Tebow was not good. Does not compute.

TonyR
02-02-2012, 07:39 AM
So you're saying that because Tebow won more games with a worse team against better opponents, Cam is better. That is brilliant. No really, you are a genius.

Dear god you're stupid. Where do you come up with this crap? I never even remotely suggested any such thing. Do I think Newton is "better"? Yes, I do. But to I get there using the ridiculous trail of "logic" you used above? Um, no. But I don't expect much understanding of this from a guy who's laughably stupid enough to think that half the GM's in the league would take Tebow over Newton as you've suggested. What a dope.

Dedhed
02-02-2012, 07:44 AM
I'm "moving into the future" because there's no other place to go. Even if we talk about last season, Newton was a better passer, but Tebow won a few more games.lulz. You're moving into the future because your argument doesn't hold water anywhere but in the mystical future.

Your "Better Passers have more success" theory doesn't work where Newton and Tebow are concerned this year.




What does Leaf have to do with either quarterback?One QB clearly has douche issues, just like Mr. Leaf. I'll let you guess which one.

TonyR
02-02-2012, 08:02 AM
So . . . . . Denver won more games than Carolina, with a worse team, against a harder schedule . . . . . but science sez Tebow was not good. Does not compute.

It doesn't compute for some of you people because you think the QB is/was the only factor. Which only proves that you're all out of your depth in this discussion. There's no point in even arguing with any of you.

jhns
02-02-2012, 08:04 AM
It doesn't compute for some of you people because you think the QB is/was the only factor. Which only proves that you're all out of your depth in this discussion. There's no point in even arguing with any of you.

Harder schedule + more wins = worse team. You argue this as you call others stupid...

You are too stupid for message boards.

BroncoBeavis
02-02-2012, 08:05 AM
It doesn't compute for some of you people because you think the QB is/was the only factor. Which only proves that you're all out of your depth in this discussion. There's no point in even arguing with any of you.

Gameplan is a factor, no? I've issued challenges to find anything resembling Denver's gameplans... crickets.

Can you find me a non-goalline example of Carolina running 2WR-2TE (one a lineman in reality) Sets?

Go!

BroncoBeavis
02-02-2012, 08:06 AM
Harder schedule + more wins = worse team. You argue this as you call others stupid...

You are too stupid for message boards.

His computer also told him Orton was the better QB.

He's one of the "Orton would've made it to the playoffs too" 7 percenters

TonyR
02-02-2012, 08:12 AM
Harder schedule + more wins = worse team. You argue this as you call others stupid...

You're too caught up in W/L. Go check out Peyton's Manning's W/L his rookie year. I bet some other rookies outperformed him in W/L that year, and certainly other years. So I guess that makes them superior to Manning in your world. Good to know. Hilarious!

jhns
02-02-2012, 08:12 AM
His computer also told him Orton was the better QB.

He's one of the "Orton would've made it to the playoffs too" 7 percenters

Tony calling others dumb is just funny. Here is what he says after Tebow is 7-4 with a team that was 1-4 before he took over...

I hate losing which is why I'm done with the Tebow experiment. He failed miserably the last two weeks. He came up really small on Sunday and got outplayed by Kyle Orton. Winning 7 of 8 got a lot of people thinking that Tebow played well but the reality is he never really played all that well other than some bursts here and there. That's not going to get it done in the NFL. You need your QB to be consistently good. I don't see any evidence that Tebow can be that guy. I was rooting for the kid too but reality has set in. You keep clinging to the mirage.

The winning QB is a failure because Tony likes winning. You can't make this stuff up...

BroncoBeavis
02-02-2012, 08:13 AM
You're too caught up in W/L. Go check out Peyton's Manning's W/L his rookie year. I bet some other rookies outperformed him in W/L that year, and certainly other years. So I guess that makes them superior to Manning in your world. Good to know. Hilarious!

Tony, one question. Would Kyle Orton have taken this team to the playoffs after starting 1-4?

jhns
02-02-2012, 08:14 AM
You're too caught up in W/L. Go check out Peyton's Manning's W/L his rookie year. I bet some other rookies outperformed him in W/L that year, and certainly other years. So I guess that makes them superior to Manning in your world. Good to know. Hilarious!

What does Manning, or any QB, have to do with what I said? You are proving to be far too stupid for message boards again.

Dedhed
02-02-2012, 08:14 AM
Dear god you're stupid. Where do you come up with this crap? I never even remotely suggested any such thing. Do I think Newton is "better"? Yes, I do. But to I get there using the ridiculous trail of "logic" you used above? Um, no. But I don't expect much understanding of this from a guy who's laughably stupid enough to think that half the GM's in the league would take Tebow over Newton as you've suggested. What a dope.

What's stupid is that you can't even understand the logic of your own argument.

Sagarin says Carolina is the better team.
Sagarin also says that Denver played better opponents.

Correct?

BTW: Prove that all GMs would take Newton. Derp. You asked a retarded question, and I gave you an answer to highlight how stupid it was.

BroncoBeavis
02-02-2012, 08:19 AM
What's stupid is that you can't even understand the logic of your own argument.

Sagarin says Carolina is the better team.
Sagarin also says that Denver played better opponents.


You weren't supposed to look at that part.

go_broncos
02-02-2012, 08:26 AM
So much hatred for Tebow after he took a ****ty team to playoffs.

Wonder..Why Mr.Elway or some folks didn't blast Orton when we were 1-4..
Because he is good from the pocket..hmmmm

TonyR
02-02-2012, 08:26 AM
Tony, one question. Would Kyle Orton have taken this team to the playoffs after starting 1-4?

What the hell does Orton have to do with this discussion? And no, I don't think he would have.

BroncoBeavis
02-02-2012, 08:32 AM
What the hell does Orton have to do with this discussion? And no, I don't think he would have.

K, so we brought in a young QB cold off the bench a third of the way into the season and he led a 1-4 team to the playoffs.

Why are you so unhappy? We dutifully watched KO **** the bed for 2 years. I've already seen more electrifying **** in Tebow's 16 games than Kyle's had his whole career. Why pull the plug? And for who?

TonyR
02-02-2012, 08:33 AM
What's stupid is that you can't even understand the logic of your own argument.

Sagarin says Carolina is the better team.
Sagarin also says that Denver played better opponents.

Correct?

Sigh. The Sagarin model rates Carolina slightly higher overall. The Sagarin model rates Denver's schedule as more difficult. What's so difficult to understand here? Like I already pointed out, SOS and W/L are not the only factors in the model.



BTW: Prove that all GMs would take Newton. Derp. You asked a retarded question, and I gave you an answer to highlight how stupid it was.

I can't prove it. But it's common sense to suggest that most NFL FO's would take Newton over Tebow. Newton was the #1 overall pick in the draft and he outperformed expectations. In his first pro game he went 24/37 422.

Ded, you can like Tebow better. That's fine. But most NFL FO's are smart enough to see that Newton is the better bet right now. It's really not even debatable.

TonyR
02-02-2012, 08:34 AM
Why are you so unhappy?

Who's unhappy?

jhns
02-02-2012, 08:34 AM
K, so we brought in a young QB cold off the bench a third of the way into the season and he led a 1-4 team to the playoffs.

Why are you so unhappy? We watched KO **** the bed for 2 years. I've already seen more electrifying **** in Tebow's 16 games than Kyle's had his whole career. Why pull the plug? And for who?

Tony also used to defend Orton. Now he hates Tebow. He also likes 6-10 Newton better, because he likes winners...

TonyR
02-02-2012, 08:35 AM
What does Manning, or any QB, have to do with what I said?

LOL You really can't figure this out on your own? And I'm the one who's too stupid?

BroncoBeavis
02-02-2012, 08:36 AM
Who's unhappy?

The guy who wanted to finish out year 3 of the Kyle Orton experiment.

jhns
02-02-2012, 08:37 AM
Sigh. The Sagarin model rates Carolina slightly higher overall. The Sagarin model rates Denver's schedule as more difficult. What's so difficult to understand here? Like I already pointed out, SOS and W/L are not the only factors in the model.




I can't prove it. But it's common sense to suggest that most NFL FO's would take Newton over Tebow. Newton was the #1 overall pick in the draft and he outperformed expectations. In his first pro game he went 24/37 422.

Ded, you can like Tebow better. That's fine. But most NFL FO's are smart enough to see that Newton is the better bet right now. It's really not even debatable.

LOL @ this guy thinking he knows what NFL front offices are thinking. I bet they would all take Newton over sixth round pick Tom Brady as well. He was drafted higher!

More wins + harder schedule = worse team. You are an idiot.

jhns
02-02-2012, 08:38 AM
LOL You really can't figure this out on your own? And I'm the one who's too stupid?

Nope. Explain it to me.

Dedhed
02-02-2012, 08:56 AM
Sigh. The Sagarin model rates Carolina slightly higher overall. The Sagarin model rates Denver's schedule as more difficult. What's so difficult to understand here? There's nothing difficult to understand other than the fact that you can't see what it says. Let's say you have a ford escort and a Porsche and you want to race them. Let's say the Escort wins. What would be the explanation?




I can't prove it. But it's common sense to suggest that most NFL FO's would take Newton over Tebow. Newton was the #1 overall pick in the draft and he outperformed expectations. In his first pro game he went 24/37 422.

Ded, you can like Tebow better. That's fine. But most NFL FO's are smart enough to see that Newton is the better bet right now. It's really not even debatable.See, to me, it's common sense that people would like to win more games. Clearly that's not what we're dealing with.

KO5K
02-02-2012, 09:00 AM
Sagarin has Denver's SOS as 10th and Carolina's as 28th, so you're right about that. But unfortunately your argument loses a little steam when you notice that Sagarin has Carolina ranked higher than Denver...

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/sagarin/nfl11.htm

Hilarious!

Wow.

You...

You're an idiot.

Carolina being ranked higher than Denver only reinforces my argument.

Hilarious!

Dedhed
02-02-2012, 09:02 AM
Hilarious!

Wow.

You...

You're an idiot.

Carolina being ranked higher than Denver only reinforces my argument.

Hilarious!

Yeah. He just doesn't understand the logic of his own stats.

BroncoBeavis
02-02-2012, 09:16 AM
Hilarious!

Wow.

You...

You're an idiot.

Carolina being ranked higher than Denver only reinforces my argument.

Hilarious!

No. Cam winning less with a better team proves he's the better QB. Because he throws a lot. When I watch his highlights on ESPN I also see lots of Spiros.

TheReverend
02-02-2012, 09:33 AM
LOL You really can't figure this out on your own? And I'm the one who's too stupid?

To be fair there's lots of things you can't figure out on your own.

Like apparently to stop looking at "sagarin's models" afters of getting kicked around and laughed at for linking them as gospel.

MortonToMoses
02-02-2012, 09:39 AM
You knuckleheads do realize that the Sagarin model doesn't separate out the Orton games from the Tebow games, right? If you compared the two teams after Week 5, I'm guessing that Denver ranks higher than Carolina and their SOS drops below 10th since Cincinnati, Tennessee, and Green Bay get tossed out.

TonyR
02-02-2012, 09:39 AM
See, to me, it's common sense that people would like to win more games. Clearly that's not what we're dealing with.

Once again, you can't judge a QB just by W/L. Thus my Peyton Manning example earlier. Go check out his rookie year W/L.

Butterscotch Stallion
02-02-2012, 09:40 AM
Tony Rtard at it again.

KO5K
02-02-2012, 09:42 AM
You knuckleheads do realize that the Sagarin model doesn't separate out the Orton games from the Tebow games, right? If you compared the two teams after Week 5, I'm guessing that Denver ranks higher than Carolina and their SOS drops below 10th since Cincinnati, Tennessee, and Green Bay get tossed out.

It wasn't just about the strength of schedule though.

TonyR
02-02-2012, 09:44 AM
To be fair there's lots of things you can't figure out on your own.

Like apparently to stop looking at "sagarin's models" afters of getting kicked around and laughed at for linking them as gospel.

LOL Show me where I called Sagarin gospel. All I did was use it to help support somebody's comment that Denver had a better SOS, but that this doesn't by itself somehow make Denver the better team according to the model. What I did do is say that Sagarin is unbiased and includes multiple factors, unlike some people here who are saying Tebow is better than Newton just because the Broncos won more games than the Panthers.

You guys are over reacting. This isn't a criticism of Tebow. It's praise for Newton. The fact that I have 5 of the usual suspects attacking me for making the statement that Newton > Tebow is very telling. What's funny is that outside of Broncos fans and Tebow fans my opinion would easily be the majority opinion, and by a wide margin.

jhns
02-02-2012, 09:45 AM
Harder schedule + more wins = worse team. You argue this as you call others stupid...

You are too stupid for message boards.

This is what your Manning response was to Tonyr. I say team, you say QB. You then cry that I put the w/l record on the QB. You are an idiot.

So, again, why don't you explain what Manning has to do with what I said?

TheReverend
02-02-2012, 09:46 AM
Once again, you can't judge a QB just by W/L. Thus my Peyton Manning example earlier. Go check out his rookie year W/L.

Just for funsies what CAN you judge a QB by?

TheReverend
02-02-2012, 09:48 AM
It wasn't just about the strength of schedule though.

Btw, finally really READ your username and ****in LOLd

jhns
02-02-2012, 09:49 AM
LOL Show me where I called Sagarin gospel. All I did was use it to help support somebody's comment that Denver had a better SOS, but that this doesn't by itself somehow make Denver the better team according to the model. What I did do is say that Sagarin is unbiased and includes multiple factors, unlike some people here who are saying Tebow is better than Newton just because the Broncos won more games than the Panthers.

You guys are over reacting. This isn't a criticism of Tebow. It's praise for Newton. The fact that I have 5 of the usual suspects attacking me for making the statement that Newton > Tebow is very telling. What's funny is that outside of Broncos fans and Tebow fans my opinion would easily be the majority opinion, and by a wide margin.

You just want to win, so the winning QB is worse. Wins can't be used to judge QBs, but you hate Tebow because he didn't win the last two weeks. I say nothing about QBs and you freak out, going on about Manning having a bad w/l record.

You are far too stupid for message boards.

TheReverend
02-02-2012, 09:50 AM
LOL Show me where I called Sagarin gospel. All I did was use it to help support somebody's comment that Denver had a better SOS, but that this doesn't by itself somehow make Denver the better team according to the model. What I did do is say that Sagarin is unbiased and includes multiple factors, unlike some people here who are saying Tebow is better than Newton just because the Broncos won more games than the Panthers.

You guys are over reacting. This isn't a criticism of Tebow. It's praise for Newton. The fact that I have 5 of the usual suspects attacking me for making the statement that Newton > Tebow is very telling. What's funny is that outside of Broncos fans and Tebow fans my opinion would easily be the majority opinion, and by a wide margin.

Lol you run to Sagarins rankings in a massive chunk of your discussions. I don't think I've ever seen it not backfire.

MortonToMoses
02-02-2012, 09:52 AM
It wasn't just about the strength of schedule though.

I wasn't saying that. I was just pointing out that Denver would probably rank higher than Carolina (mostly based upon the W-L record) and the SOS difference between Denver and Carolina wouldn't be as great. So, the argument that the worse team with the harder schedule won more games is probably not as applicable.

lonestar
02-02-2012, 09:53 AM
1. It's the pro bowl for crying out loud.
2. It's a rookie in there and the real pros are taking it to him.
3. It's the pro bowl for crying out loud.

now I did not see much of the game but if players were fined for not blocking, making a half assed pass rush, not hitting on a tackle.. I would have sworn it was flag football.

So which of those real pros were taking it to him?

certainly no one I saw..

From the parts I did see, he was looking like crap all by himself..

jhns
02-02-2012, 09:54 AM
I wasn't saying that. I was just pointing out that Denver would probably rank higher than Carolina (mostly based upon the W-L record) and the SOS difference between Denver and Carolina wouldn't be as great. So, the argument that the worse team with the harder schedule won more games is probably not as applicable.

Denver has a better w/l record without removing those games. You are not making sense.

MortonToMoses
02-02-2012, 10:00 AM
Denver has a better w/l record without removing those games. You are not making sense.

No, that's the point I was making. If you run the model on only the Tebow games, Denver would rank a lot higher compared to the Sagarin model ranking for the Orton and Tebow games combined- probably enough to push them higher than the Carolina ranking over the same period of games.

jhns
02-02-2012, 10:02 AM
No, that's the point I was making. If you run the model on only the Tebow games, Denver would rank a lot higher compared to the Sagarin model ranking for the Orton and Tebow games combined- probably enough to push them higher than the Carolina ranking over the same period of games.

Maybe, but I doubt it. If you lower our strength of schedule, it would probably remain the same. Sagarin is terrible.

MortonToMoses
02-02-2012, 10:07 AM
Maybe, but I doubt it. If you lower our strength of schedule, it would probably remain the same. Sagarin is terrible.

Yeah, you can only type so many posts about the Sagarin model before you start questioning your priorities in life, I suppose.

TonyR
02-02-2012, 10:38 AM
Sagarin is terrible.

"Terrible" because you don't understand it (you clearly don't) or because it doesn't give the answers you want it to? Or both?

Like any model Sagarin has its limitations. But it's a good model, as evidenced, for example, by the fact that the two Super Bowl teams are ranked 1 and 5. The major limitiations I see are that it ranks the whole body of work as opposed to how a team is playing currently, and it rewards/punishes for margin of victory/loss more than perhaps it should. For example, Denver probably gets punished for having a -81 differential as opposed to, say, Carolina's -23.

TheReverend
02-02-2012, 10:40 AM
"Terrible" because you don't understand it (you clearly don't) or because it doesn't give the answers you want it to? Or both?

Like any model Sagarin has its limitations. But it's a good model, as evidenced, for example, by the fact that the two Super Bowl teams are ranked 1 and 5. The major limitiations I see are that it ranks the whole body of work as opposed to how a team is playing currently, and it rewards/punishes for margin of victory/loss more than perhaps it should. For example, Denver probably gets punished for having a -81 differential as opposed to, say, Carolina's -23.

Reminder:

I'm patiently waiting for you to explain to me what a QB should be judged on.

BroncoBeavis
02-02-2012, 10:47 AM
"Terrible" because you don't understand it (you clearly don't) or because it doesn't give the answers you want it to? Or both?

Like any model Sagarin has its limitations. But it's a good model, as evidenced, for example, by the fact that the two Super Bowl teams are ranked 1 and 5. The major limitiations I see are that it ranks the whole body of work as opposed to how a team is playing currently, and it rewards/punishes for margin of victory/loss more than perhaps it should. For example, Denver probably gets punished for having a -81 differential as opposed to, say, Carolina's -23.

Terrible because it comes to many self-conflicting and irrational conclusions. I don't have much patience for models that don't reconcile with reality at the end of the day. The last one I looked at still shows the Giants as the 4th best team in the NFC. Many people knew better and predicted a Giants run.

Some things just can't be expressed in a formula.

Jay3
02-02-2012, 10:58 AM
Why can't we LOL at another team's player without it being a referendum on Tebow?

Cam Newton **** the bed in the Pro Bowl, a game where the defense is legendary for being bad and the offense has a huge advantage in the rules.

Doesn't mean he's bust or really even that he's worse than Tebow. But I think if the situation were reversed, Tebow would have to take his medicine for playing bad in the Pro Bowl.

Jay3
02-02-2012, 11:01 AM
Maybe, just maybe, all the things about Chudzkinsky designing a real good offensive system were true. Outside of his Carolina Cocoon, Newton looked like a . . . . a rookie!

It makes a difference. He throws a good looking ball and I think he'll be fine. But the lesson to be learned is to stop being so quick to judge another player like Tebow. Not everything about the situation he stepped into was ideal this year, and players make mistakes.

jhns
02-02-2012, 11:14 AM
"Terrible" because you don't understand it (you clearly don't) or because it doesn't give the answers you want it to? Or both?

Like any model Sagarin has its limitations. But it's a good model, as evidenced, for example, by the fact that the two Super Bowl teams are ranked 1 and 5. The major limitiations I see are that it ranks the whole body of work as opposed to how a team is playing currently, and it rewards/punishes for margin of victory/loss more than perhaps it should. For example, Denver probably gets punished for having a -81 differential as opposed to, say, Carolina's -23.

They say we had a harder schedule. This team won two more games. Conclusion: This team is worse.

That sure makes sense!

So, are you going to explain what this has to do with QBs yet?

jhns
02-02-2012, 11:19 AM
Harder schedule + more wins = worse team. You argue this as you call others stupid...

You are too stupid for message boards.


You're too caught up in W/L. Go check out Peyton's Manning's W/L his rookie year. I bet some other rookies outperformed him in W/L that year, and certainly other years. So I guess that makes them superior to Manning in your world. Good to know. Hilarious!


What does Manning, or any QB, have to do with what I said? You are proving to be far too stupid for message boards again.


LOL You really can't figure this out on your own? And I'm the one who's too stupid?

Care to explain this yet?

Butterscotch Stallion
02-02-2012, 11:54 AM
Reminder:

I'm patiently waiting for you to explain to me what a QB should be judged on.

completion percentage, duh. Nothing is more important than that.

TheReverend
02-02-2012, 12:04 PM
completion percentage, duh. Nothing is more important than that.

Clearly.

I'm still waiting though, Tony.

Dedhed
02-02-2012, 12:07 PM
completion percentage, duh. Nothing is more important than that.

I'm convinced that if we won the next 3 SBs with Tebow completing only 45% of his passes but delivering in the clutch and getting the best out of his teammates people would be saying "Just imagine what we could do with a real QB (like Orton or Cutler who failed to make the playoffs let alone win a playoff game while completing 60% of their passes). They would still be lamenting about how we need a real pocket passer to win in the future.

Meanwhile if we went 7-9 and missed the playoffs every year and Tebow completed 60% (Like Orton and Cutler and Newton) those same people would be much happier because they could say "at least we have a real QB".

It's mind numbing.

Dedhed
02-02-2012, 12:10 PM
Clearly.

I'm still waiting though, Tony.
He's on hold with sagarin trying to get an answer.

Butterscotch Stallion
02-02-2012, 12:11 PM
I'm convinced that if we won the next 3 SBs with Tebow completing only 45% of his passes but delivering in the clutch and getting the best out of his teammates people would be saying "Just imagine what we could do with a real QB (like Orton or Cutler who failed to make the playoffs let alone win a playoff game while completing 60% of their passes). They would still be lamenting about how we need a real pocket passer to win in the future.

Meanwhile if we went 7-9 and missed the playoffs every year and Tebow completed 60% (Like Orton and Cutler and Newton) those same people would be much happier because they could say "at least we have a real QB".

It's mind numbing.

We won a playoff game and the division with this scenario and look at the tardapalooza the Mane has become.

It is happening NOW.

The sad truth is, people are ****ing moron's. There is no getting around it.

Cito Pelon
02-02-2012, 12:40 PM
Cam Newton: INT% 3.3
TD% 4.1
Sack% 6.3
14 rushing TD's

Tebow: INT% 2.2
TD% 4.4
6 rushing TD's
Sack% 10.9

Not much difference in INT% and TD%. The glaring difference is in completion % and sack %.

No telling what the two will look like next year.

MagicHef
02-02-2012, 02:42 PM
Cam Newton: INT% 3.3
TD% 4.1
Sack% 6.3
14 rushing TD's

Tebow: INT% 2.2
TD% 4.4
6 rushing TD's
Sack% 10.9

Not much difference in INT% and TD%. The glaring difference is in completion % and sack %.

No telling what the two will look like next year.

Newton having 1.5x the int % seems like a pretty big difference to me.

Jay3
02-02-2012, 03:06 PM
Newton having 1.5x the int % seems like a pretty big difference to me.

Off the charts if you count the Pro Bowl. Hilarious!

TonyR
02-02-2012, 03:21 PM
Terrible because it comes to many self-conflicting and irrational conclusions. I don't have much patience for models that don't reconcile with reality at the end of the day. The last one I looked at still shows the Giants as the 4th best team in the NFC. Many people knew better and predicted a Giants run.

Some things just can't be expressed in a formula.

Yes, I mentioned those limitations in my post.

TonyR
02-02-2012, 03:22 PM
I'm convinced that if we won the next 3 SBs with Tebow completing only 45% of his passes but delivering in the clutch and getting the best out of his teammates people would be saying "Just imagine what we could do with a real QB...

Do you know how many people would be saying that? Zero.

TonyR
02-02-2012, 03:24 PM
Harder schedule + more wins = worse team. You argue this as you call others stupid...


You are stupid because that's not what Sagarin says. There are more factors than SOS and W/L. I've clearly stated this multiple times.

TonyR
02-02-2012, 03:27 PM
I'm still waiting though, Tony.

I'll answer your question when you respond to one of my first questions in this thread: how many NFL FO's do you think would take Tebow over Newton? You're trying to get around this salient question, just like you're trying to get around the point that just because Tebow won more games than Newton doesn't make him the better QB.

TheReverend
02-02-2012, 03:51 PM
I'll answer your question when you respond to one of my first questions in this thread: how many NFL FO's do you think would take Tebow over Newton? You're trying to get around this salient question, just like you're trying to get around the point that just because Tebow won more games than Newton doesn't make him the better QB.

I haven't dodged ANY questions. Answer: The majority of them, if not all. Also, its Tebow's superior work ethic, leadership and, most importantly, his mental faculties that make him a MUCH better QB than Cam.

Your turn. I'm still very excited for your "answer".

BroncoBeavis
02-02-2012, 03:53 PM
I haven't dodged ANY questions. Answer: The majority of them, if not all. Also, its Tebow's superior work ethic, leadership and, most importantly, his mental faculties that make him a MUCH better QB than Cam.

Your turn. I'm still very excited for your "answer".

Yeah, I'd say a third or so would take Tebow, just because of character issues. It's one thing to have a selfish WR with an attitude problem. They're a dime a dozen.

But to have your team led by a diva. There's some real long-term headaches there.

TonyR
02-02-2012, 03:58 PM
Answer: The majority of them, if not all.

You can't really believe this. Come on, Rev. You know this isn't true.

And you don't need me to answer that question. If an NFL FO was evaluating Tebow and Newton the number one thing they would look at would be throwing ability. Can the guy make the throws? If the answer is yes, you put him in a system, you surround him with talent, and if it works wins come with it.

TonyR
02-02-2012, 03:59 PM
Yeah, I'd say a third or so would take Tebow, just because of character issues.

Now that's a much more realistic estimate, although I suspect still too high. Completely agree with the rest of your post.

MagicHef
02-02-2012, 03:59 PM
I'll answer your question when you respond to one of my first questions in this thread: how many NFL FO's do you think would take Tebow over Newton? You're trying to get around this salient question, just like you're trying to get around the point that just because Tebow won more games than Newton doesn't make him the better QB.

This question you value so much has to be one of the most ridiculous things I've ever read. I suspect that the FOs that value pretty spirals would want Newton, while the FOs that value leadership, hard work, and the ability to take care of the ball would want Tebow. I imagine the numbers would be pretty lopsided.

TonyR
02-02-2012, 04:03 PM
I suspect that the FOs that value pretty spirals would want Newton, while the FOs that value leadership, hard work, and the ability to take care of the ball would want Tebow.

LOL Everybody values those things, yes. But most FO's are arrogant enough to believe they can get past character concerns. It's talent first, though. And Newton's character concerns aren't remotely large enough to get past that talent.

TheReverend
02-02-2012, 04:09 PM
You can't really believe this. Come on, Rev. You know this isn't true.

And you don't need me to answer that question. If an NFL FO was evaluating Tebow and Newton the number one thing they would look at would be throwing ability. Can the guy make the throws? If the answer is yes, you put him in a system, you surround him with talent, and if it works wins come with it.

Shhh... Listen close..

Hear that? That was the sound of the last shred of respect I had for you flying away...

You've become an absolute joke and just a parody of your east coast media exposure. "You didn't answer the way I wanted to so wah! And I'm not capable of answering this question because I only pretend to know avout football and parrot what howard eskin and espn say!"

You've gone out of your way to avoid any actual football discussion. The only logical conclusion: Gtfo douchebag. You belong there in philly.

go_broncos
02-02-2012, 04:35 PM
Imagine how the reaction will be Tebow played like Orton or cutler..
Idiots..Always complaining..

jhns
02-02-2012, 04:54 PM
You are stupid because that's not what Sagarin says. There are more factors than SOS and W/L. I've clearly stated this multiple times.

No, you are stupid for using rating that use more than what I just said. Their rating says exactly what I posted. Anything else they use to validate that stupidity, is exactly what makes them dumb.

Harder schedule + more wins = worse team

Go ahead and keep claiming it doesn't say that. We know you are an idiot.

You still aren't explaining what QBs have to do with this equation. I like how you try to argue w/l records aren't all on the QB as you turn my team argument into a QB argument...

Cito Pelon
02-02-2012, 05:08 PM
Newton having 1.5x the int % seems like a pretty big difference to me.

Yeah, I suppose one could look at it that way. Dare I say there are other factors involved? Like sack %?

Cito Pelon
02-02-2012, 05:23 PM
This question you value so much has to be one of the most ridiculous things I've ever read. I suspect that the FOs that value pretty spirals would want Newton, while the FOs that value leadership, hard work, and the ability to take care of the ball would want Tebow. I imagine the numbers would be pretty lopsided.

I'm sorry, but every FO guy in the NFL would take Newton over Tebow right now. Doesn't mean they'd be correct to do so in the long run, but that's the case.

Newton accounted for 35 TD's as a rookie. 35 TD's. 21 TD passes, 14 rushing TD's. Two fumbles lost, 17 INT's. That's a great ratio for a rookie. 19 turnovers, 35 TD's scored.

We'll see how the two pan out over the next decade, but the percentages tend toward Newton right now.

TonyR
02-02-2012, 05:39 PM
Newton accounted for 35 TD's as a rookie. 35 TD's. 21 TD passes, 14 rushing TD's.

For some reason you really have to work to convince these guys that it's about scoring TD's.

TonyR
02-02-2012, 05:44 PM
You've gone out of your way to avoid any actual football discussion.

Okay, talk some football and tell us why/how Tebow is better than Newton. And how a majority of NFL FO's would take Tebow over Newton.

This isn't about east coast bias or Philly sports talk radio. This is about objectivity and reality. Which is why there isn't any controversy in Charlotte about the QB position like there is in Denver.

TonyR
02-02-2012, 05:48 PM
You still aren't explaining what QBs have to do with this equation. I like how you try to argue w/l records aren't all on the QB as you turn my team argument into a QB argument...

Huh? Why don't you stop chasing your tail and go back to my very first post where I brought Sagarin into the discussion.

MagicHef
02-02-2012, 05:55 PM
I'm sorry, but every FO guy in the NFL would take Newton over Tebow right now. Doesn't mean they'd be correct to do so in the long run, but that's the case.

Newton accounted for 35 TD's as a rookie. 35 TD's. 21 TD passes, 14 rushing TD's. Two fumbles lost, 17 INT's. That's a great ratio for a rookie. 19 turnovers, 35 TD's scored.

We'll see how the two pan out over the next decade, but the percentages tend toward Newton right now.

Tebow has also started 16 games, and his TD/TOs are 32/16. To save you the math, that's better than Newton's ratio.

TonyR
02-02-2012, 05:56 PM
Check out these comparisons: http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/qb

----------------------------------------------------

We asked one starting player from 30 teams (we didn’t pursue a vote from Carolina or Denver for obvious reasons) this question: Who will finish with more NFL victories in his career, Newton or Tebow?

RESULTS

Newton: 25 votes
Tebow: 5 votes

Read more: http://aol.sportingnews.com/nfl/story/2011-12-28/sporting-news-player-poll-its-newton-over-tebow-in-a-landslide#ixzz1lHPURrqw

Butterscotch Stallion
02-02-2012, 06:07 PM
Check out these comparisons: http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/qb

----------------------------------------------------

We asked one starting player from 30 teams (we didn’t pursue a vote from Carolina or Denver for obvious reasons) this question: Who will finish with more NFL victories in his career, Newton or Tebow?

RESULTS

Newton: 25 votes
Tebow: 5 votes

Read more: http://aol.sportingnews.com/nfl/story/2011-12-28/sporting-news-player-poll-its-newton-over-tebow-in-a-landslide#ixzz1lHPURrqw

wonder how many of the guys polled where beat by Tebow.

Butterscotch Stallion
02-02-2012, 06:07 PM
Tebow has also started 16 games, and his TD/TOs are 32/16. To save you the math, that's better than Newton's ratio.

****Rtard's brain just exploded.

Butterscotch Stallion
02-02-2012, 06:08 PM
Shhh... Listen close..

Hear that? That was the sound of the last shred of respect I had for you flying away...

You've become an absolute joke and just a parody of your east coast media exposure. "You didn't answer the way I wanted to so wah! And I'm not capable of answering this question because I only pretend to know avout football and parrot what howard eskin and espn say!"

You've gone out of your way to avoid any actual football discussion. The only logical conclusion: Gtfo douchebag. You belong there in philly.

I jerked to this post. just sayin.

TonyR
02-02-2012, 06:28 PM
I jerked to this post. just sayin.

You jerk to lame posts like that?

Come on, that post was beneath Rev. He's one of the best posters here but he's off on this one and Rev doesn't like being wrong. People attack like that when they can't come to the table with an actual argument. He's angry because I forced him to make a definitive statement (re FO's choosing between Tebow and Newton) that he knows is ridiculous. But he had to do it to defend his position and because he's passionate about Tebow and loves the guy, and he has a lot invested in being right about him. I give him credit, at least he's not a coward like most of you. Guys like jhns are actually smart in that they won't make definitive statements like that. He won't commit to much of anything, is mostly vague, and twists every statement people make and confuses the issue. Cowardly, but smart.

What's funny is that Rev is attacking me for not "talking football" when neither he nor anyone else is either. I haven't seen any of you make a good football argument for Tebow over Newton other than maybe interceptions.

Missouribronc
02-02-2012, 06:33 PM
Newton, as a passer, is by far, BY FAR, superior to Tebow.

That part of this isn't, or shouldn't, be debatable.

Cito Pelon
02-02-2012, 06:42 PM
For some reason you really have to work to convince these guys that it's about scoring TD's.

These are one issue guys. You make any kind of disparaging remark about their one issue guy, and they'll attack you til doomsday. Like Rev with Quinton Carter. I admire you for sticking around, defending your points. And they're valid points. These guys attacking you all the time are like a swarm of mosquitoes. Carry on.

go_broncos
02-02-2012, 06:45 PM
Newton, as a passer, is by far, BY FAR, superior to Tebow.

That part of this isn't, or shouldn't, be debatable.

Currently, Orton is much better passer than Tebow.
But..do you want Tebow or Orton?

Missouribronc
02-02-2012, 06:47 PM
Currently, Orton is much better passer than Tebow.
But..do you want Tebow or Orton?

That's a bad counter argument.

Cito Pelon
02-02-2012, 06:56 PM
Tebow has also started 16 games, and his TD/TOs are 32/16. To save you the math, that's better than Newton's ratio.

My math shows Tebow 29 TD's total, 12 run, 17 pass.

Take away 11 fumbles lost (and that's a disputable number), 9 INT's.

Net is 29/20. Good net, overall. Can't complain about that at all. Dude has potential to be very good.

MagicHef
02-02-2012, 07:14 PM
My math shows Tebow 29 TD's total, 12 run, 17 pass.

Take away 11 fumbles lost (and that's a disputable number), 9 INT's.

Net is 29/20. Good net, overall. Can't complain about that at all. Dude has potential to be very good.

The numbers you are looking at are just regular season. To get to 16 games you need to include playoff games too. Also, 11 fumbles lost? Try 7 (at least that's what nfl.com has). That leads to 32/16.

Dedhed
02-02-2012, 07:16 PM
it's about scoring TD's.

In losses no doubt.

Dedhed
02-02-2012, 07:19 PM
That's a bad counter argument.

It's a bad from your perspective because it destroys your point.

Missouribronc
02-02-2012, 07:26 PM
It's a bad from your perspective because it destroys your point.

How? If Tim Tebow isn't a better passer than Kyle Orton, how is he supposed to be a better passer than Cam Newton.?

MagicHef
02-02-2012, 07:28 PM
Tebow = 2 TDs per TO

Newton = 1.8 TDs per TO

Tebow is obviously better.

Missouribronc
02-02-2012, 07:30 PM
Tebow = 2 TDs per TO

Newton = 1.8 TDs per TO

Tebow is obviously better.

I can come up with skewed stats too.

It's pretty obvious to anyone that isn't hanging from Tebow's balls that Newton is a better passer.

Frankly, it's absurd that's even an argument...

jhns
02-02-2012, 07:32 PM
I can come up with skewed stats too.

Please explain...

It isn't about better passer. It is about better QB.

Missouribronc
02-02-2012, 07:33 PM
Please explain...

It isn't about better passer. It is about better QB.

Look up completion percentage, total touchdowns and yards.

It shouldn't be too hard.

MagicHef
02-02-2012, 07:37 PM
Look up completion percentage, total touchdowns and yards.

It shouldn't be too hard.

BUT WHATEVER YOU DO, DON'T LOOK AT INTERCEPTIONS.

jhns
02-02-2012, 07:38 PM
Look up completion percentage, total touchdowns and yards.

It shouldn't be too hard.

Turnovers, play in the final minutes, wins... Yeah, it is kind of hard. One managed games and and won a lot more. The other didn't score nearly enough for the kind of football he is playing. This is pretty basic stuff.

Missouribronc
02-02-2012, 07:38 PM
BUT WHATEVER YOU DO, DON'T LOOK AT INTERCEPTIONS.

Like I said, you can skew stats wherever you want them to go.

Reality is that Newton is a better passer. It's not debatable.

jhns
02-02-2012, 07:39 PM
Like I said, you can skew stats wherever you want them to go.

Reality is that Newton is a better passer. It's not debatable.

You are clearly too stupid to follow the conversation.

Missouribronc
02-02-2012, 07:41 PM
You are clearly too stupid to follow the conversation.

What conversation?

Newton is a better passer than Tebow. It's obvious to most.

Tebow won a few games this season. Orton did that once too.

Dedhed
02-02-2012, 07:41 PM
How? If Tim Tebow isn't a better passer than Kyle Orton, how is he supposed to be a better passer than Cam Newton.?

Man you're daft. Orton is a better passer, but clearly not the better quarterback. Just like Newton is a better passer, but not a better quarterback.

Get it?

jhns
02-02-2012, 07:41 PM
The numbers you are looking at are just regular season. To get to 16 games you need to include playoff games too. Also, 11 fumbles lost? Try 7 (at least that's what nfl.com has). That leads to 32/16.

Yeah, pretty horrible for his first 16 games.

jhns
02-02-2012, 07:42 PM
What conversation?

Newton is a better passer than Tebow. It's obvious to most.

Tebow won a few games this season. Orton did that once too.

Orton did it with a team that was winning with every QB. They had a great team. That is such a stupid point...

Dedhed
02-02-2012, 07:42 PM
BUT WHATEVER YOU DO, DON'T LOOK AT INTERCEPTIONS.

OR, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, WINS!

Missouribronc
02-02-2012, 07:43 PM
Man you're daft. Orton is a better passer, but clearly not the better quarterback. Just like Newton is a better passer, but not a better quarterback.

Get it?

A few wins in one season tells you this?

That's not very good analysis.

Kyle Orton won six games in a row once too.

Missouribronc
02-02-2012, 07:43 PM
Orton did it with a team that was winning with every QB. They had a great team. That is such a stupid point...

Denver had a "great team" in 2009?

Really?

Dedhed
02-02-2012, 07:43 PM
I can come up with skewed stats too.

It's pretty obvious to anyone that isn't hanging from Tebow's balls that Newton is a better passer.

Frankly, it's absurd that's even an argument...
No one is making that argument.

jhns
02-02-2012, 07:44 PM
A few wins in one season tells you this?

That's not very good analysis.

Kyle Orton won six games in a row once too.

8-8 in like his 7th year

9-7 and a playoff win in his 2nd year

Great example.

Dedhed
02-02-2012, 07:44 PM
A few wins in one season tells you this?

That's not very good analysis.
But one season sells you on Newton?

jhns
02-02-2012, 07:45 PM
Denver had a "great team" in 2009?

Really?

Orton was a winner in 09? Really?

We had one of the most injured teams in the league in 08 and they went 8-8. Orton took them to 8-8 with a very healthy team. Tebow took over a team that was 4-14 without him. You clearly don't remember McDaniels. Great argument.