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View Full Version : Rumored plan to block Xbox 720 from playing used games?


Archer81
01-26-2012, 12:59 PM
Opinion: A Crime Against Consumers

A rumored plan to block Xbox 720 from playing used games is both morally wrong, and dangerous to the future of gaming.

Have you ever bought a used car? Do you frequent those loveliest of places, second-hand bookstores? Will you be wearing, at some point soon, a cherished article of clothing purchased from a sweet lady at a thrift store?

If you have engaged in any of these practices, welcome friend, to the bustling reality of trade, an element of society that goes back to the Stone Age...

http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/121/1217310p1.html

:Broncos:

OBF1
01-26-2012, 01:14 PM
No big deal... DO NOT BUY A 720 if this news upsets you.

Kaylore
01-26-2012, 01:21 PM
Microsoft won me over with Xbox. I had owned a Playstation and Nintendo consoles to that point. Should they decide to go this route, I will happily leave them and continue to buy Nintendo consoles and switch right back to Sony for my "heavier" gaming needs.

Bioware and EA have been angling this route for some time.

Gort
01-26-2012, 01:22 PM
Opinion: A Crime Against Consumers

A rumored plan to block Xbox 720 from playing used games is both morally wrong, and dangerous to the future of gaming.

Have you ever bought a used car? Do you frequent those loveliest of places, second-hand bookstores? Will you be wearing, at some point soon, a cherished article of clothing purchased from a sweet lady at a thrift store?

If you have engaged in any of these practices, welcome friend, to the bustling reality of trade, an element of society that goes back to the Stone Age...

http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/121/1217310p1.html

:Broncos:

wow. there's some really bad logic in that article you linked. for example,

There is an ethical issue at the heart of the used games business that's well worth contemplation. When you buy a used game, none of the money goes to the people who actually made that product. You are, in that solitary transaction, depriving a game developer of royalties, wages, investment bucks that he would have gained had you bought the game brand new.

what? once a game is purchased, that disc is private property. once you own something, it's your right to do with it as you see fit. if you sell it or loan it to somebody else, it's your business. that "product" has in fact already been sold once by the manufacturer and they've reaped the profits from it. the fact that you re-sell it to somebody else is irrelevant... you are not depriving them of additional sales. they've already realized their profit on that disc. it's not like you're duplicating the disc and making copies of it. does a grocer whine that a restaurant is re-selling the lettuce that said restaurant bought from them? does Discount Tires complain when you sell your car that you're depriving them of revenue by including the tires on the car you're selling?

the person who wrote this article, even if they are on they right side of the issue, is woefully uninformed on the concept of private property.

bfoflcommish
01-26-2012, 01:23 PM
i love my PS3

Kaylore
01-26-2012, 01:25 PM
Guys, if you buy a Taurus, and then realize you bought a Taurus and sell it to someone, you have to pay Ford, because, come on, you are totally depriving them of stuff!

That One Guy
01-26-2012, 01:27 PM
1, CBF1 is still a cockgobbling idiot.

2, If they take away the resale value, the price better plummet. Can you imagine what you'd pay for a car that had absolutely no resale value? That's one of the reasons Toyota always has a good name while Kias are always crapped on. If you buy a Toyota or Honda, it'll hold value pretty well. Buy a Kia and you'll be passing it down to your kid.

As long as all the makers don't do this at the same time (which should be collusion, I'd think), the consumer will speak quickly and whatever this 720 is (never heard of it, I presume 360v2) will be the next Dreamcast and Sony will reap the benefits.

v2micca
01-26-2012, 01:30 PM
Microsoft won me over with Xbox. I had owned a Playstation and Nintendo consoles to that point. Should they decide to go this route, I will happily leave them and continue to buy Nintendo consoles and switch right back to Sony for my "heavier" gaming needs.

Bioware and EA have been angling this route for some time.

Yes, but I guarantee that Gamestop, Best Buy, and many retail outlets will be pulling hard against this. Microsoft still needs the retail outlets to move its products. Until they can find an alternate distribution system, they aren't going to risk provoking their retail partners in this manner. They may try it for the X-box 1440 or what ever comes after the Xbox 720. By then the digital distribution methods may have sufficiently matured to effectively tell their retail partners to piss off.

Endy
01-26-2012, 01:30 PM
Microsoft has been doing that with Office and other software for years. These games would effectively have a license of "1". You aren't buying the disc, you are buying the technical property that is on it.

I'd still be opposed to this, but the reasoning and precedent isn't as faulty as you claim.

However, I also couldn't get any further in that article than the blonde with the nice rack, so take that for what its worth.

jhns
01-26-2012, 01:31 PM
Playstation is better anyways. PC is even better. I wish more people were PC gamers so the gaming companies would focus on PC gaming more. Gamers don't even realize that they are screwing themselves.

bfoflcommish
01-26-2012, 01:33 PM
Microsoft has been doing that with Office and other software for years. These games would effectively have a license of "1". You aren't buying the disc, you are buying the technical property that is on it.

I'd still be opposed to this, but the reasoning and precedent isn't as faulty as you claim.

However, I also couldn't get any further in that article than the blonde with the nice rack, so take that for what its worth.

How many of you didnt click article link until this was said??

Requiem
01-26-2012, 01:35 PM
Who cares? I get laid playing Atari.

That One Guy
01-26-2012, 01:38 PM
How many of you didnt click article link until this was said??

LOL

I read the article and didn't notice her but was planning to go back.

That One Guy
01-26-2012, 01:41 PM
Playstation is better anyways. PC is even better. I wish more people were PC gamers so the gaming companies would focus on PC gaming more. Gamers don't even realize that they are screwing themselves.

It really seems you have to have a computer dedicated to games to do it. I don't do anything on my computer but watch some movies here and there, surf basic internet, and do school work but it still gets hiccup'y after a while. That ruins games for me.

Also, when you start getting into firewall settings, random installation errors, etc... a computer is just so much more of a hassle. And it sucks because I very much prefer shoot-em games on a computer.

That One Guy
01-26-2012, 01:44 PM
Microsoft has been doing that with Office and other software for years. These games would effectively have a license of "1". You aren't buying the disc, you are buying the technical property that is on it.

I'd still be opposed to this, but the reasoning and precedent isn't as faulty as you claim.

However, I also couldn't get any further in that article than the blonde with the nice rack, so take that for what its worth.

Well, with computer software you're dealing with a different beast. You install that software and then keep it forever. You never stop using Word so you can never honestly sell it and it wouldn't be effective to run it solely off the disk to allow it.

As for computer games, I've seen the online download concept and if people are paying full price for a game they can download and install once.. they're idiots.

That One Guy
01-26-2012, 01:46 PM
Oh, and last thing that I thought of then forgot before responding: When they do things like this, they push people to reconfigure their hardware. When they give people to go into their system in the first place, the people get a "while I'm in here..." attitude. The piracy will be much worse if they give people incentive to go in and start tweaking things than if they keep everything simple but avoid giving incentives.

That One Guy
01-26-2012, 01:47 PM
And no luck on finding the bikini clad girl. I had a World of Warcraft ad...

bronco militia
01-26-2012, 01:48 PM
Xbox should just move to digital downloads for all game content. Honestly, what the hell are they waiting for?

jhns
01-26-2012, 01:48 PM
It really seems you have to have a computer dedicated to games to do it. I don't do anything on my computer but watch some movies here and there, surf basic internet, and do school work but it still gets hiccup'y after a while. That ruins games for me.

Also, when you start getting into firewall settings, random installation errors, etc... a computer is just so much more of a hassle. And it sucks because I very much prefer shoot-em games on a computer.

Limit the porn downloads!

The biggest complaint is usually cost. It does take a lot to keep up sometimes. The next good one is cheaters in online games, though I don't seem to see as many as some claim.

They can just make games so much bigger, with much better graphics. Then you can do stuff like mod games. I have to play shooters on the computer. The mouse and keyboard are so much better for shooting. I still play all sports/driving games on the PS3.

Jesterhole
01-26-2012, 01:56 PM
Used games hurt the developers and the publishers, the two main forces behind video games. Basically, the money from used games only goes to the retail stores that sell it. The people who made the game make zero off of it. Now, on a micro scale, who cares, right? However, when things scale up like they do with game sales, then you're taking millions of dollars away from the talent because hundreds of thousands of people have bought used copies of your game for 10 bucks less than retail, and you saw none of that money.

I hope this is true and it happens. Don't by used games. You line the pockets of the wrong people.

2KBack
01-26-2012, 01:56 PM
Guys, if you buy a Taurus, and then realize you bought a Taurus and sell it to someone, you have to pay Ford, because, come on, you are totally depriving them of stuff!

Not really a great comparison. There are incentives to buy a car new. Digital property doesn't deteriorate, it was always run on it respective system just as well as the day purchased. The only incentive to buy a video game new is to get it on it's release date....or to not have to deal with Gamestop.

The used car business is no threat to the new car business because new cars are seen as superior. The used game business could be seen as a threat since it is literally the exact same product...but cheaper.

jhns
01-26-2012, 01:58 PM
Xbox should just move to digital downloads for all game content. Honestly, what the hell are they waiting for?

All consoles will do this at some point. PC is already doing it. They still sell disks, but then the disk just makes you connect to Steam or Origin anyways. The consoles will use these successful PC services as examples and start doing the same. It really does eliminate most of their comllaints, and is good for the users.

Tombstone RJ
01-26-2012, 01:58 PM
Opinion: A Crime Against Consumers

A rumored plan to block Xbox 720 from playing used games is both morally wrong, and dangerous to the future of gaming.

Have you ever bought a used car? Do you frequent those loveliest of places, second-hand bookstores? Will you be wearing, at some point soon, a cherished article of clothing purchased from a sweet lady at a thrift store?

If you have engaged in any of these practices, welcome friend, to the bustling reality of trade, an element of society that goes back to the Stone Age...

http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/121/1217310p1.html

:Broncos:

prediction: Xbox sales will plummet if this happens...

Garcia Bronco
01-26-2012, 02:00 PM
How on earth would an xbox determine if the game is "used" or not. LOL

Activation code is the only way they can go and they'll spend even more money fielding the support calls.

Eldorado
01-26-2012, 02:02 PM
So, if you're against this does that mean you worship McDaniels?

That One Guy
01-26-2012, 02:02 PM
Used games hurt the developers and the publishers, the two main forces behind video games. Basically, the money from used games only goes to the retail stores that sell it. The people who made the game make zero off of it. Now, on a micro scale, who cares, right? However, when things scale up like they do with game sales, then you're taking millions of dollars away from the talent because hundreds of thousands of people have bought used copies of your game for 10 bucks less than retail, and you saw none of that money.

I hope this is true and it happens. Don't by used games. You line the pockets of the wrong people.

Would people really be willing to pay ~$60 a game if you couldn't resell it? I don't often pay more than about $25 a game but I absolutely wouldn't.

Currently, you can buy a $60 game and usually it seems get $35+ back if you play it through then trade it back in. That means if you play your cards right, you can play the game out for ~$25. Now, how many people are really lining up if there's absolutely no resell? The developers get their money by charging so much off the bat.

Garcia Bronco
01-26-2012, 02:03 PM
Xbox should just move to digital downloads for all game content. Honestly, what the hell are they waiting for?

Seriously. I've actually stopped buying games when they come out and buy the downloads when they're availiable.

Garcia Bronco
01-26-2012, 02:05 PM
So Game Stop, Gamefly, and what not would be out of business shortly there after.

That One Guy
01-26-2012, 02:06 PM
Not really a great comparison. There are incentives to buy a car new. Digital property doesn't deteriorate, it was always run on it respective system just as well as the day purchased. The only incentive to buy a video game new is to get it on it's release date....or to not have to deal with Gamestop.

The used car business is no threat to the new car business because new cars are seen as superior. The used game business could be seen as a threat since it is literally the exact same product...but cheaper.

What year car do you drive?

What year was the last video game you played created?

I drive an '03 and an '04. My wife has an '07. It's quite rare you'll see me playing games from 5+ years ago. The graphics and gameplay changes are so different usually that once you play a newer version of something, it's impossible to go back.

I'd say cars are just as good as they age and video games have more incentive to buy the newest version. People don't buy a new Ford every year but they might buy a new copy of Madden. Also, if you buy a new Ford, you don't just leave the old one sitting in your garage. I have plenty of games just sitting around gathering dust.

That One Guy
01-26-2012, 02:06 PM
Seriously. I've actually stopped buying games when they come out and buy the downloads when they're availiable.

Do you get a discount since you can't resell?

jhns
01-26-2012, 02:09 PM
Would people really be willing to pay ~$60 a game if you couldn't resell it? I don't often pay more than about $25 a game but I absolutely wouldn't.

Currently, you can buy a $60 game and usually it seems get $35+ back if you play it through then trade it back in. That means if you play your cards right, you can play the game out for ~$25. Now, how many people are really lining up if there's absolutely no resell? The developers get their money by charging so much off the bat.

If they go this route, they will have to drop the price of games faster. The majority of PC games now require you to use digital distribution, which means you can't sell your used games. You can buy games much cheaper from these services than what you would pay for the same game on console. COD is the only franchise that doesn't start dropping the price a lot within six months of the game coming out. Even they have huge sales on Steam a lot.

2KBack
01-26-2012, 02:14 PM
What year car do you drive?

What year was the last video game you played created?

I drive an '03 and an '04. My wife has an '07. It's quite rare you'll see me playing games from 5+ years ago. The graphics and gameplay changes are so different usually that once you play a newer version of something, it's impossible to go back.

I'd say cars are just as good as they age and video games have more incentive to buy the newest version. People don't buy a new Ford every year but they might buy a new copy of Madden. Also, if you buy a new Ford, you don't just leave the old one sitting in your garage. I have plenty of games just sitting around gathering dust.

What are you talking about? The graphics and gameplay of an individual game do not vary and the sales of that individual game (new) can be vital to the potential of a newer version....or even the survival of a company. It may not hurt EA or Activision for a game to bomb, but it killed Mythic and Flagship. For smaller studios, especially considering how high development costs are, every new copy counts.

I want to know how this is morally wrong as well. Personally I would like all credit and benefits of me enjoying a game to go to the creators of said game. I'm not so selfish as to think that these guys owe me cheaper entertainment.

As I said before, and you further pointed out...used cars are a poor example

That One Guy
01-26-2012, 02:15 PM
If they go this route, they will have to drop the price of games faster. The majority of PC games now require you to use digital distribution, which means you can't sell your used games. You can buy games much cheaper from these services than what you would pay for the same game on console. COD is the only franchise that doesn't start dropping the price a lot within six months of the game coming out. Even they have huge sales on Steam a lot.

That's what I'd expect. I don't think it'd be some monetary windfall like they would maybe expect it to be. It'd be $20-30 per game whereas they can currently get $50-60. Every game would have to exchange hands 2-3 times before the studios started losing money. Even more if you gradually lower the price as the interest falls as a game gets older.

I think they make off better by charging the high price, building up the anticipation and getting everyone to buy it right off the bat, and then leaving the people to try and recoup some of their money.

Agamemnon
01-26-2012, 02:19 PM
How on earth would an xbox determine if the game is "used" or not. LOL

Activation code is the only way they can go and they'll spend even more money fielding the support calls.

By keying all games you play to your xbox live account. And yes that would require an internet connection for you to play your xbox, which is another unpleasant, albeit merely implied, aspect to these rumors.

Of course, I really don't see any of this actually happening, but I'm sure there are a fair number of greedy ****s out there who would like it to. Just going to have to wait until full on digital distribution is the thing before raping their customers though (and yes, digital distribution that costs the same as retail amounts to rape of the consumer...on multiple levels).

That One Guy
01-26-2012, 02:20 PM
What are you talking about? The graphics and gameplay of an individual game do not vary and the sales of that individual game (new) can be vital to the potential of a newer version....or even the survival of a company. It may not hurt EA or Activision for a game to bomb, but it killed Mythic and Flagship. For smaller studios, especially considering how high development costs are, every new copy counts.

I want to know how this is morally wrong as well. Personally I would like all credit and benefits of me enjoying a game to go to the creators of said game. I'm not so selfish as to think that these guys owe me cheaper entertainment.

As I said before, and you further pointed out...used cars are a poor example

Graphics of a game do not vary. Nor does a car in most cases. My car and my wife's car drive just as well today as they did 5+ years ago.

Now, if you want the newest upgrades, you have to buy a new car and a new game. Now, my point was, which can you deal with better? Playing Goldeneye on the N64 or driving a car from the same era?

The experience doesn't change for the game but doesn't for the car, either. The upgrades in a car aren't nearly as noticeable, though, as the upgrades in games. The new game market will maintain strength because people want the upgrades. Cars just don't change that much.

The used car market is much more detrimental to Ford than the used video game market is to a developer.

bowtown
01-26-2012, 02:23 PM
prediction: Xbox sales will plummet if this happens...

Yep, this looks like a job for bowtown, VP of Common Sense!

When we last left bowtown, VP of Common Sense, he was seen outside the headquarters of Netflix, wagging his finger as if to say "you should have listened to COMMON SENSE!"

Jay3
01-26-2012, 02:25 PM
How on earth would an xbox determine if the game is "used" or not. LOL

Activation code is the only way they can go and they'll spend even more money fielding the support calls.

They will basically implement a digital download system (where key parts of the game are downloaded) but it draws upon the high-GB content on the disk. Games a little too big to download the whole thing right now, but they can make it to where there's not a fully functioning game on the disk.

And make it where once a disk is put in to play (new) it downloads the rest, gets the unique number off that disk, and makes it where no other account holder can ever use that disk.

keef
01-26-2012, 02:25 PM
How many of you didnt click article link until this was said??


Busted

Garcia Bronco
01-26-2012, 02:25 PM
Do you get a discount since you can't resell?

actually by then it 10 to 30 bucks cheaper

2KBack
01-26-2012, 02:30 PM
Graphics of a game do not vary. Nor does a car in most cases. My car and my wife's car drive just as well today as they did 5+ years ago.

Now, if you want the newest upgrades, you have to buy a new car and a new game. Now, my point was, which can you deal with better? Playing Goldeneye on the N64 or driving a car from the same era?

The experience doesn't change for the game but doesn't for the car, either. The upgrades in a car aren't nearly as noticeable, though, as the upgrades in games. The new game market will maintain strength because people want the upgrades. Cars just don't change that much.

The used car market is much more detrimental to Ford than the used video game market is to a developer.

I completely disagree. The game industry is a much faster moving industry than the auto industry. To exist the game industry needs a constant flow of new and successful product. You can get the used version of a game less than a week after it's release. Not to mention one is a luxury product, and one is almost a necessity (not to everyone, but more so than gaming obviously). It's a poor comparison from top to bottom.

If used gaming was just individuals selling games to each other or trading with friends, I don't think thise would be an issue. When the single biggest gaming retailer specializes in used gaming, and companies see the kind of money that is bringing them, they are going to want a piece....and rightfully so in my opinion. This may not be the way to go about it, but I do think it is something that they should address.

Agamemnon
01-26-2012, 02:32 PM
Would people really be willing to pay ~$60 a game if you couldn't resell it? I don't often pay more than about $25 a game but I absolutely wouldn't.

Currently, you can buy a $60 game and usually it seems get $35+ back if you play it through then trade it back in. That means if you play your cards right, you can play the game out for ~$25. Now, how many people are really lining up if there's absolutely no resell? The developers get their money by charging so much off the bat.

The only games worth $60 bucks without resell are epic RPG's with 100+ hours of gameplay (Skyrim, Kingdoms of Amalur) and certain multiplayer-centric games (FPS's mostly when it comes to consoles). Beyond that, single player-centric games that are relatively short like the Portal games etc. really start looking like a bad investment. $60 for 6-8 hours of gameplay? No thank you, even if said gameplay is awesome.

So yeah, you're totally right. The used market helps to flood money back into the new game market. And really if they kill the used game market I think that's really going to hurt small game designers and new IP's the most, as many people are going to save their sixty bucks for the big developers and the known IP's, rather than spending it on unknown products without any assurance they can recoup some of their money.

Greed makes people stupid and short-sighted though.

Gort
01-26-2012, 02:40 PM
I have plenty of games just sitting around gathering dust.

here's the issue.

let's say i offered to buy those games from you, person to person.

the article in the OP implies that a) it's wrong for you to sell them to me, and b) Microsoft wants to set up a system to prevent you from selling them to me.

forget gamestop. forget gamexchange. that just clutters the argument.

the fundamental argument is that YOU own those games and YOU have the right to do with them as you see fit. Microsoft doesn't get a say in the matter.

we're not talking about installed software that comes with licenses. we're talking about SW on a CD that is 100% portable and should be 100% portable.

if i buy SW for my PC that requires a license, i am still entitled to uninstall it on one computer and re-install it on another if need be. that's the equivalent of selling/trading a game you already purchased. so long as that SW is not on 2 computers simultaneously, i'm following the license. SW developers have to account for PC getting destroyed or replaced and the license needs to be portable in that instance as well.

That One Guy
01-26-2012, 02:41 PM
If used gaming was just individuals selling games to each other or trading with friends, I don't think thise would be an issue. When the single biggest gaming retailer specializes in used gaming, and companies see the kind of money that is bringing them, they are going to want a piece....and rightfully so in my opinion. This may not be the way to go about it, but I do think it is something that they should address.

Well you also get into the same issue that was brought up in the SOPA stuff - people only have a limited amount of money to spend. Just as protecting music won't necessarily make everyone buy more music, it'll make them spend a bit of money but just mostly have less music overall. In this case, it'll drive down the gameplay market significantly because people maybe only get a game every few months when you could try all sorts of games until you found one you liked previously. There'd be no trade ins, no rentals to try, etc. It could just turn away gamers because they couldn't afford to be actively involved in the hobby anymore.

Gort
01-26-2012, 02:42 PM
I completely disagree. The game industry is a much faster moving industry than the auto industry. To exist the game industry needs a constant flow of new and successful product. You can get the used version of a game less than a week after it's release. Not to mention one is a luxury product, and one is almost a necessity (not to everyone, but more so than gaming obviously). It's a poor comparison from top to bottom.

If used gaming was just individuals selling games to each other or trading with friends, I don't think thise would be an issue. When the single biggest gaming retailer specializes in used gaming, and companies see the kind of money that is bringing them, they are going to want a piece....and rightfully so in my opinion. This may not be the way to go about it, but I do think it is something that they should address.

if Microsoft covets gamestop's profits, then they should enter that business and compete against them head-to-head and beat them at their own game.

Gort
01-26-2012, 02:44 PM
They will basically implement a digital download system (where key parts of the game are downloaded) but it draws upon the high-GB content on the disk. Games a little too big to download the whole thing right now, but they can make it to where there's not a fully functioning game on the disk.

And make it where once a disk is put in to play (new) it downloads the rest, gets the unique number off that disk, and makes it where no other account holder can ever use that disk.

not everyone has Xbox Live or wants it. what about those people?

Rabb
01-26-2012, 02:45 PM
not everyone has Xbox Live or wants it. what about those people?

You can still download games without it, I am pretty sure...I mean, M$ won't deprive you of giving them money will they?

scorpio
01-26-2012, 02:46 PM
Publishers have been moving in this direction for a long time. Not allowing access to multiplayer without a code that's in the original game box, for example.

jhns
01-26-2012, 02:46 PM
Does Mocrosoft even own any big game developers?

Agamemnon
01-26-2012, 02:47 PM
SW developers have to account for PC getting destroyed or replaced and the license needs to be portable in that instance as well.

Which brings up another very important issue, because Microsoft has a rather spotty history when it comes to console longevity. So let's say you buy the new Xbox and then buy 12 games over the following year, only to have your console die after it's warranty expires. Not only do you lose the console in that situation, you lose all your games too. That's very problematic to say the least. And if they use a cloud system in an attempt to avoid that, that just brings its own headaches.

That One Guy
01-26-2012, 02:51 PM
Which brings up another very important issue, because Microsoft has a rather spotty history when it comes to console longevity. So let's say you buy the new Xbox and then buy 12 games over the following year, only to have your console die after it's warranty expires. Not only do you lose the console in that situation, you lose all your games too. That's very problematic to say the least. And if they use a cloud system in an attempt to avoid that, that just brings its own headaches.

I would think they'd maintain a call center to reactivate codes. They could tie to an account and be reactivatable and most people wouldn't bother trying to get around the rules and the used industry would soon die.

Rabb
01-26-2012, 02:58 PM
Honestly, sine SWTOR came out...my 360 has been lonely

DBroncos4life
01-26-2012, 03:02 PM
I won't buy it if they do. It's bad enough I just bought Madden 12 yesterday and EA's code only had 24 ****ing numbers when it needs 25. I was on a online chat with them forever and they wouldn't give me a new code either. The guy was nice so I'm not mad at him but it's BS that we need the code to play online in the first place and even worse that they ****ed up and it's my 64 dollar problem now.

Archer81
01-26-2012, 03:05 PM
I think its still too early to definitively say that the PS4 or the Xbox720 will even use game discs. If they do, and Microsoft decides to put a "kill code" on a disc to prevent it from being loaded into more than one system, they will lose alot of people.

I thought the article was a little preachy, but presented an interesting concept. I buy a game, its mine. If I choose to resell it, who the F is microsoft to tell me I can't?

Bastards.

:Broncos:

Endy
01-26-2012, 03:14 PM
And no luck on finding the bikini clad girl. I had a World of Warcraft ad...

Apparently our cookies have told them something about what we like.


Sorry, couldn't help it.

houghtam
01-26-2012, 03:15 PM
Used games hurt the developers and the publishers, the two main forces behind video games. Basically, the money from used games only goes to the retail stores that sell it. The people who made the game make zero off of it. Now, on a micro scale, who cares, right? However, when things scale up like they do with game sales, then you're taking millions of dollars away from the talent because hundreds of thousands of people have bought used copies of your game for 10 bucks less than retail, and you saw none of that money.

I hope this is true and it happens. Don't by used games. You line the pockets of the wrong people.

This is assuming that the person buying the used games would have bought it new if they hadn't bought it used. Half the games I have, I buy used, and if they weren't for sale used, I would have half as many games as I do now...

Most of the people I know who buy used games fall into this category, as well. I don't think it's an accurate assumption to say that second-hand video game retailers are costing the original publishers millions of dollars.

SportinOne
01-26-2012, 03:19 PM
No big deal... DO NOT BUY A 720 if this news upsets you.

its a big deal if you love the xbox. microsoft can do what they want with the xbox, we have the right to express our opinion about it. if enough people express negative opinions about it, they will listen..

simple enough?

Endy
01-26-2012, 03:20 PM
I don't even play video games. I have a Wii, but my 8 year-old is the only one that plays it.

However, I was just thinking how it could be genius to move to the Amazon Kindle model for video games.

You can buy a digital copy of game that you can't resell for 50% less than the "hard copy". Even on the day it is released. Kind of like how you can buy a Kindle book for $15 bucks the day that the $28 hardback is released.

You can play them across your devices, but not anybody else's. You can even lend them to people, but can't play them yourself while it is lent out. You could even borrow them from a "library" (which is what GameStop could become).

Since the games are $30 or $35 instead of $60, people would essentially buy them when they come out instead of waiting for a month and then buying it used from GameStop. Sales could double or even triple making up for the lost profit margin per sale. Plus, digital downloads would eventually be much cheaper once the infrastructure was paid for.

Pretty smart if you ask me. But I really don't know a damn thing about the industry. I do, however, read the hell out of my Kindle.

Agamemnon
01-26-2012, 03:24 PM
This is assuming that the person buying the used games would have bought it new if they hadn't bought it used. Half the games I have, I buy used, and if they weren't for sale used, I would have half as many games as I do now...

Most of the people I know who buy used games fall into this category, as well. I don't think it's an accurate assumption to say that second-hand video game retailers are costing the original publishers millions of dollars.

Yep. There are the must-have games that I buy new when they come out, and then there all the games that I'm willing to try but only at the right price (which varies depending on the game). 90% of the games I buy used I would never buy new, and honestly I would probably buy a lot fewer games all around if used games were done away with because I'm all about trading games in when I'm bored with them. I would imagine this is a pretty common thing amongst gamers.

Willynowei
01-26-2012, 03:24 PM
This **** is hilarious.

Just like everything else, you should own the copy of the game you buy, reselling it is within your right. The problem these vendors have is that software does not depreciate in value with use, so they have to artificially do it with these one-time-only codes.

Xbox division generates $4 billion in revenue and is the only growing division for Microsoft these days and I'm supposed to be feeling sorry for the hardworking developers because of lost revenues from game resales?

HAHAHAHAHAH LOL

Hilarious. Here's an idea - make your multiplayer/downloadable content compelling enough to mitigate resale behavior.

No way this **** will fly. And this idea of "developer support" is the biggest load of horse **** i've ever heard of in my life.

Behave as an intelligent consumer would, let the market sort itself out, its okay, you're not somehow bound by a ****ing ethical code to buy **** you can legally obtain for free.

Holy ****.

broncocalijohn
01-26-2012, 03:40 PM
Used games hurt the developers and the publishers, the two main forces behind video games. Basically, the money from used games only goes to the retail stores that sell it. The people who made the game make zero off of it. Now, on a micro scale, who cares, right? However, when things scale up like they do with game sales, then you're taking millions of dollars away from the talent because hundreds of thousands of people have bought used copies of your game for 10 bucks less than retail, and you saw none of that money.

I hope this is true and it happens. Don't by used games. You line the pockets of the wrong people.

As someone who has never downloaded music illegally, I think your argument is the most moronic thing I have ever heard. THey already got their royalties when the original owner bought the game. It is now his to give it away as a gift, sell it for a loss or profit or use it and either toss it in a box or sell it. If we took your case to every other item in the world, we wouldn't have antiques stores, auctions, used car lots and Play it again Sports. ****, add no more garage sales and libraries! In fact, your reply is so ****ing retarded, I think it is time I go back to your original post and give you a neg present. Don't worry, it will be a fresh neg rep and never used :thumbs:
What the hell is wrong with you?

Archer81
01-26-2012, 03:54 PM
Yep. There are the must-have games that I buy new when they come out, and then there all the games that I'm willing to try but only at the right price (which varies depending on the game). 90% of the games I buy used I would never buy new, and honestly I would probably buy a lot fewer games all around if used games were done away with because I'm all about trading games in when I'm bored with them. I would imagine this is a pretty common thing amongst gamers.


I'm that way. I have games I wont trade in series I like. God of War, Uncharted, Infamous, Dragon Age and Mass Effect. Games like Madden, NHL 12, NCAA, ect I buy new and use them for trades. Even though I have not done that in awhile...I have 45 PS3 games...gaming is an expensive hobby. $2700 on games, $900 on systems...

Good God...

:Broncos:

Dr. Broncenstein
01-26-2012, 04:08 PM
Have to say this is the first generation of gaming consoles that I haven't the least bit of interest in... that said I'll probably buy each of them.

ludo21
01-26-2012, 04:28 PM
love my ps3.

I have a 360 and got batman for it for xmas, i rather would have gotten it for my ps3.

just saying, i hate paying for live as well, rip off

cutthemdown
01-26-2012, 04:36 PM
Microsoft won me over with Xbox. I had owned a Playstation and Nintendo consoles to that point. Should they decide to go this route, I will happily leave them and continue to buy Nintendo consoles and switch right back to Sony for my "heavier" gaming needs.

Bioware and EA have been angling this route for some time.

Basically they want the computer software model but it's taken even further. . For my Cubase software i have this dongle that gets coded to the software. So that software can only play with that dongle. Its just like a usb stick. But I can sell both I think and someone else can use it. It's wrong for them to do this. As long as 2 copies not in use at same time this wrong and IMO almost criminal to think about.

It's like big pharmacy trying to get old tried and true drugs off the market so they can just make new ones that do same thing, but now are not generic. Its BS.

The problem facing our country is lack of new invention. I'm not suggesting I know why, whose to blame, anything, hell maybe its just we have been smart for soooo long. Hard to invent something truly needed anymore? Can't figure out the virus cure, so pharma just makes a new arthritis drug, or one for headaches, then tries to make millions off it.

Sorry I'm ranting but hearing stuff like this makes me wonder what the hell are companies thinking? That we will just shovel them cash? **** that. That's why i love my saxophone. Its the one thing that needs no electricity, no govt services, nothing, I could be in the ****ing woods after a comet hit, last one alive, if I got my sax i can have a good day! lol Be nice if the Broncos were playing though. I love watching the games and playing during the breaks.

cutthemdown
01-26-2012, 04:38 PM
love my ps3.

I have a 360 and got batman for it for xmas, i rather would have gotten it for my ps3.

just saying, i hate paying for live as well, rip off

I have a PS3, not a gamer but my friend who is said if you are getting a bluray player, might as well just get the ps3. So thats what i did. I do have Tiger Woods Golf, and some others. I guess I should get Madden but I feel like I would be so far behind people who play. I haven't played for awhile but for a time i was deadly on Tiger Woods Golf. I would bring over people who said they play, turn on the wind, set the courses to difficult, and watch them lose bad lol.

Never paid for the live chargers, but I get it. We get nickle and dimed as consumers to death now. Its not the friggin big purchases or your kid strung out on meth alley that breaks you. It's ****ing 3 dollars here, 5 bucks a month here, 50 bucks a month for cell phone, 100 bucks for electricity because calif adds so much tax.

TAXES!!!! these politicians fools us because they talk about income tax all the time. INCOME TAX!!!!! hell that is the least of our problems. It really is just like John Lennon said, if they could they would tax the air we breathe. Oh wait, global warming, its coming, its coming, and we all know its a going to **** us. Whether or not its real, they will screw us over it somehow. Dems will take the mouth, and repubs the ass, sorry libetarians Americans only have 2 holes to screw, go away!.

elsid13
01-26-2012, 04:55 PM
Who cares? I get laid playing Atari.

Sheep don't count....

Kaylore
01-26-2012, 05:00 PM
Not really a great comparison. There are incentives to buy a car new. Digital property doesn't deteriorate, it was always run on it respective system just as well as the day purchased. The only incentive to buy a video game new is to get it on it's release date....or to not have to deal with Gamestop.

The used car business is no threat to the new car business because new cars are seen as superior. The used game business could be seen as a threat since it is literally the exact same product...but cheaper.

Totally disagree. How many people want to play Madden 2006 right now? If you can find it, it's worth about three dollars. Games absolutely do deteriorate in value. Especially this is so when the online appeal is very high. Why would want a game where the community doesn't play anymore?

Used games hurt the developers and the publishers, the two main forces behind video games. Basically, the money from used games only goes to the retail stores that sell it. The people who made the game make zero off of it. Now, on a micro scale, who cares, right? However, when things scale up like they do with game sales, then you're taking millions of dollars away from the talent because hundreds of thousands of people have bought used copies of your game for 10 bucks less than retail, and you saw none of that money.

I hope this is true and it happens. Don't by used games. You line the pockets of the wrong people.
:~ohyah!: Yeah it lines my pockets with forty more dollars than you were charging me for the shrink-wrapped version.

Sorry, but I don't buy games to "reward" the programmers. My buying the game in first place does that. And I often use the ability to trade my used games into these places to purchase the latest game new with store credit. If a console goes this route, I'm not going be able to buy the game at all, and then everyone loses. As I understand, I represent the demographic where most buyers buy new and used games. You take the trade-in factor away and you will see sales of new games go down and piracy go up.

brother love
01-26-2012, 05:31 PM
What happens if your xbox dies? Do you have to buy all new games.

chadta
01-26-2012, 05:32 PM
so what happens when this system gets a red ring of death, and you need to get a new system, do they then expect you to buy all new games ? The same person would still own them but they are being locked to one machine, What if i have 2 machines ? one at my cottage and one at home, heck i have a friend that has 2 wiis, one upstairs and one downstairs, are you now supposed to buy one game for each machine ?

if they have a way of dealing with this, i trust somebody will figure it out, and a patch will be on the internet in no time.

ant1999e
01-26-2012, 05:37 PM
Used games hurt the developers and the publishers, the two main forces behind video games. Basically, the money from used games only goes to the retail stores that sell it. The people who made the game make zero off of it. Now, on a micro scale, who cares, right? However, when things scale up like they do with game sales, then you're taking millions of dollars away from the talent because hundreds of thousands of people have bought used copies of your game for 10 bucks less than retail, and you saw none of that money.

I hope this is true and it happens. Don't by used games. You line the pockets of the wrong people.

:Whaaaa!:Cry me a river. It's my fu kin money. How many jobs will be lost if they do this, businesses shut down? Free f/
f'ing market...

ant1999e
01-26-2012, 05:40 PM
Publishers have been moving in this direction for a long time. Not allowing access to multiplayer without a code that's in the original game box, for example.

Battlefield 3 did this. I tried to play the copy I bought for my son online and couldn't without buying a pass. I'll never play that game, F them.

DBroncos4life
01-26-2012, 05:51 PM
I'm still pissed that EA won't fix the code they messed up on. Force me to buy a new copy to play online then give me a 24 digit code lol.

UberBroncoMan
01-26-2012, 06:16 PM
I'm still pissed that EA won't fix the code they messed up on. Force me to buy a new copy to play online then give me a 24 digit code lol.

EA is well known for having wretched community service.

DBroncos4life
01-26-2012, 06:22 PM
EA is well known for having wretched community service.

As soon as I opened the box I knew I was ****ed. Getting a store to take back a opened game is a huge challenge as well.

Jesterhole
01-26-2012, 07:11 PM
As someone who has never downloaded music illegally, I think your argument is the most moronic thing I have ever heard. THey already got their royalties when the original owner bought the game. It is now his to give it away as a gift, sell it for a loss or profit or use it and either toss it in a box or sell it. If we took your case to every other item in the world, we wouldn't have antiques stores, auctions, used car lots and Play it again Sports. ****, add no more garage sales and libraries! In fact, your reply is so ****ing retarded, I think it is time I go back to your original post and give you a neg present. Don't worry, it will be a fresh neg rep and never used :thumbs:
What the hell is wrong with you?

You have no idea what you're talking about. Antinque stores? Lol. I'm not talking personal sales between people. I'm talking about policy from companies like EB and Gamestop that take money out of my pocket.

These stores buy brand new games, a day old, and then sell to a potential buyer. They push the used games over the new one, asking every customer that buys a new copy if they want a used one. That guy buys the used game instead of a new one, and all the profit goes to Game Stop or whatever.

If there was a waiting period of some sort, say three months, so that you can make as many sales as possible when you first come out, then fine. But there isn't, and these stores push their copy of the game over a new one. No other buisness works like that. Games aren't protected in the same way that movies are.

I'm sure in your job as third shift manager at your local Wendy's, that you don't have to worry about things like this, so I forgive you.

Jesterhole
01-26-2012, 07:13 PM
This is assuming that the person buying the used games would have bought it new if they hadn't bought it used. Half the games I have, I buy used, and if they weren't for sale used, I would have half as many games as I do now...

Most of the people I know who buy used games fall into this category, as well. I don't think it's an accurate assumption to say that second-hand video game retailers are costing the original publishers millions of dollars.

It doesn't matter if you think it's an accurate assumption or not. I'm in the industry, and the whole damn thing is geared up to kill used game sales. It has been for years. Companies like Microsoft wouldn't be making the changes they are making unless it was profitable to do so.

doonwise
01-26-2012, 07:19 PM
No big deal... DO NOT BUY A 720 if this news upsets you.
THIS.
Also, I have more faith in hackers cracking it than I do in Microsoft preventing used games from running.

Jetmeck
01-26-2012, 07:30 PM
Used games hurt the developers and the publishers, the two main forces behind video games. Basically, the money from used games only goes to the retail stores that sell it. The people who made the game make zero off of it. Now, on a micro scale, who cares, right? However, when things scale up like they do with game sales, then you're taking millions of dollars away from the talent because hundreds of thousands of people have bought used copies of your game for 10 bucks less than retail, and you saw none of that money.

I hope this is true and it happens. Don't by used games. You line the pockets of the wrong people.

Are you for real ? Please tell me your joking ?
Once I bought the damn thing its mine.

spdirty
01-26-2012, 07:32 PM
Sony and Nintendo are right now whacking off to this news.

I think pretty soon the next gen consoles will be selling all the new games for download anyway so soon enough you wont be able to resell those games.

That One Guy
01-26-2012, 07:35 PM
You have no idea what you're talking about. Antinque stores? Lol. I'm not talking personal sales between people. I'm talking about policy from companies like EB and Gamestop that take money out of my pocket.

These stores buy brand new games, a day old, and then sell to a potential buyer. They push the used games over the new one, asking every customer that buys a new copy if they want a used one. That guy buys the used game instead of a new one, and all the profit goes to Game Stop or whatever.

If there was a waiting period of some sort, say three months, so that you can make as many sales as possible when you first come out, then fine. But there isn't, and these stores push their copy of the game over a new one. No other buisness works like that. Games aren't protected in the same way that movies are.

I'm sure in your job as third shift manager at your local Wendy's, that you don't have to worry about things like this, so I forgive you.

You're a dunce.

scorpio
01-26-2012, 07:36 PM
It doesn't matter if you think it's an accurate assumption or not. I'm in the industry, and the whole damn thing is geared up to kill used game sales. It has been for years. Companies like Microsoft wouldn't be making the changes they are making unless it was profitable to do so.

I'm sorry your $8/hour QA job is in jeopardy. It doesn't make your line of reasoning any less ridiculous.

Jetmeck
01-26-2012, 07:40 PM
As someone who has never downloaded music illegally, I think your argument is the most moronic thing I have ever heard. THey already got their royalties when the original owner bought the game. It is now his to give it away as a gift, sell it for a loss or profit or use it and either toss it in a box or sell it. If we took your case to every other item in the world, we wouldn't have antiques stores, auctions, used car lots and Play it again Sports. ****, add no more garage sales and libraries! In fact, your reply is so ****ing retarded, I think it is time I go back to your original post and give you a neg present. Don't worry, it will be a fresh neg rep and never used :thumbs:
What the hell is wrong with you?

:rofl:

Jetmeck
01-26-2012, 07:43 PM
It doesn't matter if you think it's an accurate assumption or not. I'm in the industry, and the whole damn thing is geared up to kill used game sales. It has been for years. Companies like Microsoft wouldn't be making the changes they are making unless it was profitable to do so.

Well, what they want and what they get is usually two different things. Piss off your base with BS like this and you will feel it in your ass right there by your wallet !

houghtam
01-26-2012, 07:47 PM
It doesn't matter if you think it's an accurate assumption or not. I'm in the industry, and the whole damn thing is geared up to kill used game sales. It has been for years. Companies like Microsoft wouldn't be making the changes they are making unless they thought it was profitable to do so.

Fixed it for you. So companies never make bad decisions even thought they believe them to be good ones at first?

I'm not saying it won't be profitable in the short term, I'm saying that you and Microsoft are not taking into account the fact that many, many people buy the game simply because of the price, and the ability to resell. If this goes into effect, I think the backlash from people just not buying their games and switching to other consoles will more than cancel out any profit they hope to have made.

XBOX simply isn't a system that is so head-and-tails above the competition that users can't go anywhere else. Spdrity is right, Nintendo and Sony are cracking open the champagne bottles and toasting the next Dreamcast system.

TheReverend
01-26-2012, 07:48 PM
...how the hell does this go 4 pages?

I love the OM :)

TheReverend
01-26-2012, 07:49 PM
I'm sorry your $8/hour QA job is in jeopardy. It doesn't make your line of reasoning any less ridiculous.

I think I might be the longest running scorpio fan around.

ant1999e
01-26-2012, 07:52 PM
Maybe if video game developers quit producing more crap than quality, people wouldn't sell their used games to gamestop to sell to others...

alkemical
01-26-2012, 08:05 PM
welcome to the cloud...where you only rent everything...

Jesterhole
01-26-2012, 08:05 PM
You're a dunce.

And you're the fodder that buys my games. Thanks. I love my new car.

extralife
01-26-2012, 08:14 PM
but wait, I thought you weren't making any money because you don't get royalties from garage sales

I'll stick to emulating old games, supporting independent developers with cheap price tags, digital download sites that actually offer discounts when they realize you aren't buying real copies, thousands of free games and mods of every sort, and the giant mound of **** I already own. Anyone that pays $60 for the press-a-to-beat-the-game-and-watch-the-movie pap that passes for <s>hollywood</s> AAA games these days probably deserves what is coming their way.

RhymesayersDU
01-26-2012, 08:33 PM
Totally disagree. How many people want to play Madden 2006 right now? If you can find it, it's worth about three dollars. Games absolutely do deteriorate in value. Especially this is so when the online appeal is very high. Why would want a game where the community doesn't play anymore?

While I get the point you're trying to make, Madden is also unique in that you buy it yearly for the new rosters. I wouldn't use that as the rule for all games.

houghtam
01-26-2012, 08:35 PM
While I get the point you're trying to make, Madden is also unique in that you buy it yearly for the new rosters. I wouldn't use that as the rule for all games.

Maybe not, but what he's saying about online games and FPS is definitely true. The populations in those communities die the minute the next big thing comes out, and then there goes the support.

smtanner
01-26-2012, 08:38 PM
It doesn't matter if you think it's an accurate assumption or not. I'm in the industry, and the whole damn thing is geared up to kill used game sales. It has been for years. Companies like Microsoft wouldn't be making the changes they are making unless it was profitable to do so.
Heres the slashdot link:
http://games.slashdot.org/story/12/01/26/1829232/xbox-720-might-reject-used-games

Looks like most people think it's a stupid idea.

Guess what... these are your customers. Way to bite the hand that feeds you.

You think by eliminating the used game market you can upgrade your new Hyundai to a BMW but all that will happen is your Hyundai will be repossessed.

broncocalijohn
01-26-2012, 09:00 PM
These stores buy brand new games, a day old, and then sell to a potential buyer. They push the used games over the new one, asking every customer that buys a new copy if they want a used one. That guy buys the used game instead of a new one, and all the profit goes to Game Stop or whatever.

If there was a waiting period of some sort, say three months, so that you can make as many sales as possible when you first come out, then fine. But there isn't, and these stores push their copy of the game over a new one. No other buisness works like that. Games aren't protected in the same way that movies are.

I'm sure in your job as third shift manager at your local Wendy's, that you don't have to worry about things like this, so I forgive you.

First off, explain to the non gamers how a store can buy a new game a day old (if they are allowed to based on being a purchaser directly from Microsoft, Nintendo, etc.) and then sell it but offer the same game but used when it has only been out one day. Then they push used ones because they probably have a lot in stock from trade ins from people who are purchasing new ones. Unless you can explain it exactly, you are not going to get sympathy from even those that don't believe in piracy of music and movies. As for your snide comment about 3rd shift manager at Wendys, I moved to Sizzler and now 2nd shift manager, dip ****. See what you don't know! BTW, that "rep" you gave was gray. Either shows me you have pissed off a lot of people in the past or you got bombarded with neg reps just from this thread.

ant1999e
01-26-2012, 09:00 PM
And you're the fodder that buys my games. Thanks. I love my new car.

Lol He says this after crying that re-sales take money out of his pocket.

houghtam
01-26-2012, 09:20 PM
Lol He says this after crying that re-sales take money out of his pocket.

It's because it's not true. Resales don't take anything away from anyone, and they arguably increase sales, just like music piracy does.

broncocalijohn
01-26-2012, 09:35 PM
It's because it's not true. Resales don't take anything away from anyone, and they arguably increase sales, just like music piracy does.



Not sure about music sales. Those that know sites with free music will rarely go buy an album. They just find artist they now like and download more music for free. It might help non commercial artist get exposure and therefore sellout bigger venues for concerts but that is far and between. Since I listen to rockabilly, it is already a small niche market and therefore I always buy their albums for support.

houghtam
01-26-2012, 09:51 PM
Not sure about music sales. Those that know sites with free music will rarely go buy an album. They just find artist they now like and download more music for free. It might help non commercial artist get exposure and therefore sellout bigger venues for concerts but that is far and between. Since I listen to rockabilly, it is already a small niche market and therefore I always buy their albums for support.

Good example is me not sure I want to drop $60 on Uncharted 2. I buy Uncharted used for $20. Good game, so I buy Uncharted 2 full price. Now Uncharted 3 comes out, and I buy that too.

Not sure what Jester doesn't understand.

broncocalijohn
01-26-2012, 09:55 PM
Good example is me not sure I want to drop $60 on Uncharted 2. I buy Uncharted used for $20. Good game, so I buy Uncharted 2 full price. Now Uncharted 3 comes out, and I buy that too.

Not sure what Jester doesn't understand.

Jester doesn't understand how you are holding him back from getting some killer rims on his new car and everytime you walk into GameStop, you are inching him closer to pop on hub caps. You should be ashamed of yourself!

DAN_BRONCO_FAN
01-26-2012, 10:19 PM
Who cares? I get laid playing Atari.

well good for you never knew Atari could get you laid but could it be your magnificent looks sir. perhaps your some sort of playgirl centerfold . we will never know will we lol

Fedaykin
01-26-2012, 11:18 PM
This is idiotic. It's like saying used bookstores should be illegal.

Not only is it idiotic, it's counter productive. Just like books, people find (and buy) new games based on things they find in the used market.

It's a lot safer gamble to try a $20 copy of a game you may or may not like than the absurd $60-80 price the idiot publishers are trying (hint to publishers, want more sales? stop the idiotic pricing), Hell, I make a comfortable living and I still shy away from buying a $60 game that I'm not 100% sure I'll enjoy for at least 30-40 hours.

BTW: I make my living making software too.

ChampJesusBailey
01-26-2012, 11:30 PM
what? once a game is purchased, that disc is private property. once you own something, it's your right to do with it as you see fit. if you sell it or loan it to somebody else, it's your business. that "product" has in fact already been sold once by the manufacturer and they've reaped the profits from it. the fact that you re-sell it to somebody else is irrelevant... you are not depriving them of additional sales. they've already realized their profit on that disc. it's not like you're duplicating the disc and making copies of it. does a grocer whine that a restaurant is re-selling the lettuce that said restaurant bought from them? does Discount Tires complain when you sell your car that you're depriving them of revenue by including the tires on the car you're selling?

the person who wrote this article, even if they are on they right side of the issue, is woefully uninformed on the concept of private property.

When someone buys lettuce from the grocery store, they're buying the lettuce. When someone buys a tire from a tire shop, they are literally buying the tire, buying property. When you buy a game, all that is actually yours, is the disc. The content on that disc is not yours. What you buy when you pay for a game, is the right to access that content. But the content itself still belongs to whoever made the game. So the author of the article is not misinformed at all, and the developers are well within their legal rights to say to you that if you bought used, you don't get to play the game or only get to play part of the game.

Now, whether or not that deserve full price money or should have that right to crap on used buyers is another thing entirely but copyright laws work in their favor.

DAN_BRONCO_FAN
01-26-2012, 11:41 PM
also they still charge you for the new map packs or weapons and any other dlc for that game it dont come with it unless you also use the persons acct. and what about game rental companies think they will frown upon this

broncocalijohn
01-27-2012, 01:00 AM
When someone buys lettuce from the grocery store, they're buying the lettuce. When someone buys a tire from a tire shop, they are literally buying the tire, buying property. When you buy a game, all that is actually yours, is the disc. The content on that disc is not yours. What you buy when you pay for a game, is the right to access that content. But the content itself still belongs to whoever made the game. So the author of the article is not misinformed at all, and the developers are well within their legal rights to say to you that if you bought used, you don't get to play the game or only get to play part of the game.

Now, whether or not that deserve full price money or should have that right to crap on used buyers is another thing entirely but copyright laws work in their favor.

Unless it states you cannot resell your disc then these companies have no business trying to shut it down. If they did have the rights, GameStop would be put out of business by court order. When you own the disc you don't have the right to make multiple copies. The buyer is selling his disc and therefore there is the same amount of copies and users...ONE. If they want to change it, then they need to come up with a way to do it. Once you have allowed it to go on and it is legal, people are used to that way of doing business. You piss off enough people, the black market will prosper.

chadta
01-27-2012, 03:35 AM
I guess now would be a bad time to mention to jester that between a PS1, PS2 WII DS XBOX and XBOX 360 i have over 1500 games

Gort
01-27-2012, 03:59 AM
When someone buys lettuce from the grocery store, they're buying the lettuce. When someone buys a tire from a tire shop, they are literally buying the tire, buying property. When you buy a game, all that is actually yours, is the disc. The content on that disc is not yours. What you buy when you pay for a game, is the right to access that content. But the content itself still belongs to whoever made the game. So the author of the article is not misinformed at all, and the developers are well within their legal rights to say to you that if you bought used, you don't get to play the game or only get to play part of the game.

Now, whether or not that deserve full price money or should have that right to crap on used buyers is another thing entirely but copyright laws work in their favor.

copyright doesn't enter into the discussion. we are not talking about copying anything.

this is simply an issue about possession of a legally purchased, unmodified game disc. if i buy a disc with a game on it, i have the right to play that game anywhere i see fit. so keying the game to work on just 1 xbox console would be a problem. i also have the right to transfer ownership to anyone else i see fit, for whatever terms i see fit. this is called PROPERTY RIGHTS. i'm not talking about copying the disc, i'm simply talking about transferring ownership of a legally purchased disc to somebody else. if Microsoft intends to stop that, then they'd have to introduce some sort of invasive HW/SW mechanism that would create more headaches than it would solve, or require everyone who purchases a game disc to sign/agree to a legal contract saying that such ownership transfers are forbidden. if they did that, they would anger some of their customers and alot fewer video game discs and consoles would probably be sold.

i've never purchased a used game disc, nor sold a game disc, but if something like this were implemented on the 720, i would probably avoid that console on principle alone.

That One Guy
01-27-2012, 04:11 AM
And you're the fodder that buys my games. Thanks. I love my new car.

I said earlier in the thread that I buy almost exclusively used and rarely pay more than about $25 a game.

By your account, you should be driving a red wagon and providing your own vroom effects if you're living off people like me.

BroncoBeavis
01-27-2012, 04:15 AM
It's all about pricing. If they switch from an ownership to licensing model, they'll have to drop pricing (if they're smart) to make up some of the lost value to the gamer.

If an xbox game cost me $40 instead of 60 I wouldnt bitch much about no resale. But if they dont discount, their competition would eat their lunch.

That One Guy
01-27-2012, 04:16 AM
When someone buys lettuce from the grocery store, they're buying the lettuce. When someone buys a tire from a tire shop, they are literally buying the tire, buying property. When you buy a game, all that is actually yours, is the disc. The content on that disc is not yours. What you buy when you pay for a game, is the right to access that content. But the content itself still belongs to whoever made the game. So the author of the article is not misinformed at all, and the developers are well within their legal rights to say to you that if you bought used, you don't get to play the game or only get to play part of the game.

Now, whether or not that deserve full price money or should have that right to crap on used buyers is another thing entirely but copyright laws work in their favor.

Didn't Microsoft try to push this line of thinking in relation to modding consoles and get shot down in courts recently?

It seems that's one of those things where they probably erred by getting a similar precedent set. It's kinda how record companies won't go after pure downloaders because the legality of it is too iffy so they risk setting a precedent that says in some cases, downloading is legal. By Microsoft or whoever losing the case about modding consoles, they've already lost the fight on whether the property belongs entirely to the person or not. Since consoles have been deemed personal property, I can't imagine games wouldn't as well.

So, if it were ever to somehow become a legal question, I would think content that is not discounted as a single use would be considered personally owned content.

That One Guy
01-27-2012, 04:17 AM
It's all about pricing. If they switch from an ownership to licensing model, they'll have to drop pricing (if they're smart) to make up some of the lost value to the gamer.

If an xbox game cost me $40 instead of 60 I wouldnt b**** much about no resale. But if they dont discount, their competition would eat their lunch.

Exactly what it all boils down to.

I just think the price point would have to go a bit further. However you cut it though, they're getting a piece of that resale market in their initial pricing. They have to see that.

BroncoBeavis
01-27-2012, 04:24 AM
copyright doesn't enter into the discussion. we are not talking about copying anything.

this is simply an issue about possession of a legally purchased, unmodified game disc. if i buy a disc with a game on it, i have the right to play that game anywhere i see fit. so keying the game to work on just 1 xbox console would be a problem. i also have the right to transfer ownership to anyone else i see fit, for whatever terms i see fit. this is called PROPERTY RIGHTS. i'm not talking about copying the disc, i'm simply talking about transferring ownership of a legally purchased disc to somebody else. if Microsoft intends to stop that, then they'd have to introduce some sort of invasive HW/SW mechanism that would create more headaches than it would solve, or require everyone who purchases a game disc to sign/agree to a legal contract saying that such ownership transfers are forbidden. if they did that, they would anger some of their customers and alot fewer video game discs and consoles would probably be sold.

i've never purchased a used game disc, nor sold a game disc, but if something like this were implemented on the 720, i would probably avoid that console on principle alone.

I think this is a bad idea and probably won't happen- but there is no legal issue at play. This is not any different than the Licensing terms M$ useson many of its other products
And they wouldnt have to tie it to a single system. Just tie activation of the product to your gamertag

Either way the day is coming soon when you won't have a disc to resell, everything will be dlc, so the issue will likely become moot in the next couple generations

BroncoBeavis
01-27-2012, 04:31 AM
Exactly what it all boils down to.

I just think the price point would have to go a bit further. However you cut it though, they're getting a piece of that resale market in their initial pricing. They have to see that.

I think theyd have to realize that not allowing resale would hurt industry sales.

Just like if they banished car resales- new car buyers would buy new cars far less often

Jesterhole
01-27-2012, 04:39 AM
First off, explain to the non gamers how a store can buy a new game a day old (if they are allowed to based on being a purchaser directly from Microsoft, Nintendo, etc.) and then sell it but offer the same game but used when it has only been out one day. Then they push used ones because they probably have a lot in stock from trade ins from people who are purchasing new ones. Unless you can explain it exactly, you are not going to get sympathy from even those that don't believe in piracy of music and movies. As for your snide comment about 3rd shift manager at Wendys, I moved to Sizzler and now 2nd shift manager, dip ****. See what you don't know! BTW, that "rep" you gave was gray. Either shows me you have pissed off a lot of people in the past or you got bombarded with neg reps just from this thread.

Here is how it works. Game comes out. Kid buys it, runs home, beat it in 6 hours, then runs back to the store. Store gives the kid 20 bucks for the game, then restocks it as used. Another kid comes in. Picks up a new copy of the game and takes it to the counter. The guy working there says 'Hey, how about a used copy of that game instead. It's 10 bucks cheaper.' So instead of another copy of the game being sold, the store keeps 100% of the profit, usually $5-10 bucks off the retail sticker. It's very good business for them, and that is why everyone is getting into it.

When that happens as a matter of policy at a huge chain like Best Buy or Gamestop, across thousands of transactions all around the world, then it ends up costing the developers and the publishers millions. You can say it's right or wrong or whatever, but the fact is the people who make games make 0% of the money off of used games, and they are going to kill that market, no matter what.

Any of you use Steam? Ever buy a used game off of Steam? Nope? Well, you won't buy used games on the next generation of consoles either. It's that simple. If you want to play the game for cheap, you'll have to wait for the price to drop.

That One Guy
01-27-2012, 04:43 AM
Here is how it works. Game comes out. Kid buys it, runs home, beat it in 6 hours, then runs back to the store. Store gives the kid 20 bucks for the game, then restocks it as used. Another kid comes in. Picks up a new copy of the game and takes it to the counter. The guy working there says 'Hey, how about a used copy of that game instead. It's 10 bucks cheaper.' So instead of another copy of the game being sold, the store keeps 100% of the profit, usually $5-10 bucks off the retail sticker. It's very good business for them, and that is why everyone is getting into it.

When that happens as a matter of policy at a huge chain like Best Buy or Gamestop, across thousands of transactions all around the world, then it ends up costing the developers and the publishers millions. You can say it's right or wrong or whatever, but the fact is the people who make games make 0% of the money off of used games, and they are going to kill that market, no matter what.

Any of you use Steam? Ever buy a used game off of Steam? Nope? Well, you won't buy used games on the next generation of consoles either. It's that simple. If you want to play the game for cheap, you'll have to wait for the price to drop.

What are your thoughts re: The theory that current prices are so high because the games can be resold?

Jesterhole
01-27-2012, 04:49 AM
It's all about pricing. If they switch from an ownership to licensing model, they'll have to drop pricing (if they're smart) to make up some of the lost value to the gamer.

If an xbox game cost me $40 instead of 60 I wouldnt b**** much about no resale. But if they dont discount, their competition would eat their lunch.

Prices don't drop. When the entire industry switched from cartridges to CDs, prices didn't drop at all, even though production costs dropped dramatically. You weren't buying actual chips and memory crammed into that little box anymore, you were buying a cheap CD that cost a couple of pennies to push out. Games still sold in the $50-60 dollar range.

Trust me, they are smart, which is why they keep charging what they've been charging. Because that is what people will pay.

Jesterhole
01-27-2012, 05:01 AM
What are your thoughts re: The theory that current prices are so high because the games can be resold?

Prices are where they are because of where they are. I know that sounds lame, but it's the truth. Home video games used to be expensive to produce, because there were computer chips and memory that you had to put inside. It was a niche market back then, so those things were expensive. They weren't made as toys for kids, they were for tech savvy adults, at they started around $15-20 bucks a pop at first. That is early 80's prices.

Games being resold is just a different issue. It wasn't a big deal until the policy of pushing used games over new ones became the driving force behind most of the major chains around the country.

In any case, the whole argument will be going away soon. No one will be buying games on disk down the road, just like no one buys music CDs anymore. At that point, there will be nothing to sell, since it'll all be controlled digitally.

alkemical
01-27-2012, 05:33 AM
Not sure about music sales. Those that know sites with free music will rarely go buy an album. They just find artist they now like and download more music for free. It might help non commercial artist get exposure and therefore sellout bigger venues for concerts but that is far and between. Since I listen to rockabilly, it is already a small niche market and therefore I always buy their albums for support.

If you go into the Stop Online Piracy thread that was stickied - i have some links in there that show the facts that music piracy actually INCREASES music sales.

alkemical
01-27-2012, 05:34 AM
This is idiotic. It's like saying used bookstores should be illegal.

Not only is it idiotic, it's counter productive. Just like books, people find (and buy) new games based on things they find in the used market.

It's a lot safer gamble to try a $20 copy of a game you may or may not like than the absurd $60-80 price the idiot publishers are trying (hint to publishers, want more sales? stop the idiotic pricing), Hell, I make a comfortable living and I still shy away from buying a $60 game that I'm not 100% sure I'll enjoy for at least 30-40 hours.

BTW: I make my living making software too.

You should see what DRM is doing to public libraries. It's nuts.

alkemical
01-27-2012, 05:37 AM
PS -

Welcome to the cloud: Where you don't own anything...you rent it.

Drek
01-27-2012, 06:04 AM
In any case, the whole argument will be going away soon. No one will be buying games on disk down the road, just like no one buys music CDs anymore. At that point, there will be nothing to sell, since it'll all be controlled digitally.

This is just about as wrong a take as someone could have.

For starters, over a quarter of this country doesn't even have broadband. You really think a successful console manufacturer is going to lop off a quarter of the entire American market?

Second, more and more broadband providers are now requiring monthly bandwidth limits for customers. How exactly do you handle downloading 10 GB games when you only get 100GB a month total bandwidth?

Third, do you really think online distribution is anywhere close to stable enough for it to fully supplant Gamestop, Wal-Mart, Best Buy, etc.? How do you market games to casuals without retail outlets? How do you gauge marketing pushes that are currently heavily tied to pre-order numbers when there is no incentive to pre-order? How do you get those B&M retailers to sell consoles with next to no profit margin if there is no media to make profit on the back end with? The video game industry is more reliant on its retail partnerships than the movie industry which understands that going digital is a 5-10 year play.

Fourth, there are inherent flaws that all people intuitively understand with digital v. physical media. Internet outages are a reality of life. A 10GB download takes longer than going to the store for the vast majority of broadband customers. Online services can never be 100% secure, as we've seen with Sony's multiple services being compromised, Steam being compromised not too long ago, XBL accounts still being pilfered to this day despite MS' denials, etc.. Everyone has been forced to be well aware of these facts and are now an assumed truth of digital distro. Couple that with the desire of many to actually own physical media and you're fighting even more of an uphill battle.

The games industry is a good 5-10 years away before it can go entirely digital distro. Microsoft might try something damn close to it as Sony is the key force behind the only legitimate next generation media (blu-ray) and therefore put them at a pricing disadvantage (this is why the original Xbox couldn't play DVDs out of the box and needed the remote + adapter). If they do then the next MS system will fail horribly and Sony will cement another generation of console dominance.

The problem with used games sales is a problem with the production industry, not the retail chain. Movie and book publishers do not have the same hostility towards the used markets.

Most movies are not generally produced with the lead actors and director living off royalties post-release. They make a product, sell it to a producer for X and the producer profits or loses from its success or lack thereof. Only the biggest name directors and actors get royalties in Hollywood and the reason behind that is their ability to bring in crowds. It splits the risk of making a film living off a name between the actor/director and the producers. The actor/director also almost always lands an Exec. Producer credit as a result.

With literature you do have a lot of authors who live off the royalty market, but literature has always been appreciated as a shared medium and there are fewer cooks in the kitchen as it were to take what royalties do come in.

The real divide here though is that both movies and music are viewed as a social media where the content creators understand that it will be shared among friends. They are unwilling to sacrifice that core aspect of the experience (talking with your friends about a new book/movie that you lent them) in exchange for what little profits they can bleed in the short term by killing the used market. The games industry needs to grow up and understand this.

Jack1118son
01-27-2012, 06:44 AM
How many of you didnt click article link until this was said??

Here, here!!!

Jetmeck
01-27-2012, 06:48 AM
When someone buys lettuce from the grocery store, they're buying the lettuce. When someone buys a tire from a tire shop, they are literally buying the tire, buying property. When you buy a game, all that is actually yours, is the disc. The content on that disc is not yours. What you buy when you pay for a game, is the right to access that content. But the content itself still belongs to whoever made the game. So the author of the article is not misinformed at all, and the developers are well within their legal rights to say to you that if you bought used, you don't get to play the game or only get to play part of the game.

Now, whether or not that deserve full price money or should have that right to crap on used buyers is another thing entirely but copyright laws work in their favor.

It's called "fair use" . Look it up. The only copyright laws protect from the game being copied and that is all.

Jetmeck
01-27-2012, 06:51 AM
This is just about as wrong a take as someone could have.

For starters, over a quarter of this country doesn't even have broadband. You really think a successful console manufacturer is going to lop off a quarter of the entire American market?

Second, more and more broadband providers are now requiring monthly bandwidth limits for customers. How exactly do you handle downloading 10 GB games when you only get 100GB a month total bandwidth?

Third, do you really think online distribution is anywhere close to stable enough for it to fully supplant Gamestop, Wal-Mart, Best Buy, etc.? How do you market games to casuals without retail outlets? How do you gauge marketing pushes that are currently heavily tied to pre-order numbers when there is no incentive to pre-order? How do you get those B&M retailers to sell consoles with next to no profit margin if there is no media to make profit on the back end with? The video game industry is more reliant on its retail partnerships than the movie industry which understands that going digital is a 5-10 year play.

Fourth, there are inherent flaws that all people intuitively understand with digital v. physical media. Internet outages are a reality of life. A 10GB download takes longer than going to the store for the vast majority of broadband customers. Online services can never be 100% secure, as we've seen with Sony's multiple services being compromised, Steam being compromised not too long ago, XBL accounts still being pilfered to this day despite MS' denials, etc.. Everyone has been forced to be well aware of these facts and are now an assumed truth of digital distro. Couple that with the desire of many to actually own physical media and you're fighting even more of an uphill battle.

The games industry is a good 5-10 years away before it can go entirely digital distro. Microsoft might try something damn close to it as Sony is the key force behind the only legitimate next generation media (blu-ray) and therefore put them at a pricing disadvantage (this is why the original Xbox couldn't play DVDs out of the box and needed the remote + adapter). If they do then the next MS system will fail horribly and Sony will cement another generation of console dominance.

The problem with used games sales is a problem with the production industry, not the retail chain. Movie and book publishers do not have the same hostility towards the used markets.

Most movies are not generally produced with the lead actors and director living off royalties post-release. They make a product, sell it to a producer for X and the producer profits or loses from its success or lack thereof. Only the biggest name directors and actors get royalties in Hollywood and the reason behind that is their ability to bring in crowds. It splits the risk of making a film living off a name between the actor/director and the producers. The actor/director also almost always lands an Exec. Producer credit as a result.

With literature you do have a lot of authors who live off the royalty market, but literature has always been appreciated as a shared medium and there are fewer cooks in the kitchen as it were to take what royalties do come in.

The real divide here though is that both movies and music are viewed as a social media where the content creators understand that it will be shared among friends. They are unwilling to sacrifice that core aspect of the experience (talking with your friends about a new book/movie that you lent them) in exchange for what little profits they can bleed in the short term by killing the used market. The games industry needs to grow up and understand this.

Why do you think Sony bribed all the major studios to use BLU-RAY and put HD-DVD out of the contest. Not right but that is exactly what they did.

jhns
01-27-2012, 07:28 AM
Why do you think Sony bribed all the major studios to use BLU-RAY and put HD-DVD out of the contest. Not right but that is exactly what they did.

Because Blu-ray is superior... It holds more on the disk. This means it will last a lot longer than HD DVD would have.

houghtam
01-27-2012, 08:17 AM
Because Blu-ray is superior... It holds more on the disk. This means it will last a lot longer than HD DVD would have.

This. It had nothing to do with anyone bribing anyone.

Drek
01-27-2012, 08:32 AM
Why do you think Sony bribed all the major studios to use BLU-RAY and put HD-DVD out of the contest. Not right but that is exactly what they did.

Sony didn't bribe anyone, they just trojan horsed blu-ray through the PS3.

For the format's first few years of life there were more PS3s in homes than every other blu-ray player combined. It is following the same path Sony used to push DVDs in Japan where the market there was incredibly slow to adopt. Suddenly when the PS2 was capable of playing DVD movies the format exploded in Japan.

Sony could have gone with DVD as the format of choice for games and came to market with a sub-$300 price point, putting incredible pressure on MS from day one and likely dominating the market. Sony traded a generation of console dominance (which lasts between 5-10 years at the most) for control of what will likely be the last physical media we buy, a product that will be viable for 10-15 years at a minimum.

It being technically superior to HD-DVD is clear, but that didn't help Betamax beat out VHS. Sony knows how damaging the loss of a format war can be and spent all the company's resources to make sure it wasn't going to happen again.

Garcia Bronco
01-27-2012, 08:42 AM
I'd say media is gone and people just don't know it yet.

Kaylore
01-27-2012, 09:22 AM
This. It had nothing to do with anyone bribing anyone.

Exactly. You can fit way more information in a Blu-Ray disc than an HD-DVD.

Armchair Bronco
01-27-2012, 11:41 AM
My boys were like: "If we can't play used games on the 720, then we don't want it."

Fact is: we're doing fine without Blu-Ray. And we already have a standalone Kinect. So other than a performance boost, the 720 doesn't offer anything groundbreaking. And the last time I looked, my boys weren't complaining about lagging render times on the XBox 360.

So far, there's nothing about the 720 that says: "Must Have Now!".

Jetmeck
01-27-2012, 11:42 AM
This. It had nothing to do with anyone bribing anyone.

You didn't follow along with the story little boy. Blu-ray was not superior. Sony just wasn't going to lose out this time like they did with vhs/Betamax.

extralife
01-27-2012, 11:46 AM
Prices don't drop. When the entire industry switched from cartridges to CDs, prices didn't drop at all, even though production costs dropped dramatically.

yes they did. larger cartridges got up to $70 or more, whereas Sony, for instance, eventually settled on $35 for first party playstation games. third party games were usually $40.

chadta
01-27-2012, 11:48 AM
Here is how it works. Game comes out. Kid buys it, runs home, beat it in 6 hours, then runs back to the store.

well theres the problem

make better games that kids cant beat in 6 hours and you wont have this problem.

Jetmeck
01-27-2012, 11:49 AM
It being technically superior to HD-DVD is clear, but that didn't help Betamax beat out VHS. Sony knows how damaging the loss of a format war can be and spent all the company's resources to make sure it wasn't going to happen again.

BS, not technically better and HD-DVD (Toshiba) was developing a process to equal or better storage capacity.

The last line of your reply is what made the difference. They got to the studios that put the movies on disc.

jhns
01-27-2012, 11:55 AM
BS, not technically better and HD-DVD (Toshiba) was developing a process to equal or better storage capacity.

The last line of your reply is what made the difference. They got to the studios that put the movies on disc.

That is very wrong. It is impissible for HD-DVD to hold as much as Blu-ray. This is because of the difference in red light vs blue light.

Why is there an HD-DVD fanboy? Did you bet on them and buy a bunch of them?

I don't know about bribes and such, but Blockbuster is who decided BLU-RAY would win.

houghtam
01-27-2012, 12:20 PM
BS, not technically better and HD-DVD (Toshiba) was developing a process to equal or better storage capacity.

The last line of your reply is what made the difference. They got to the studios that put the movies on disc.

If it was not technically better then why did HDDVD need to develop a process to equal storage capacity?

Were you alive during the last decade, or did you just fall off the turnip truck?

Bribes had nothing to do with it. Blu-Ray was/is just better.

Requiem
01-27-2012, 12:23 PM
Black cards, black cars, black on black, black broads. Whole lotta money in a black bag. Black strap, you know what that’s for?

My PS3.

broncocalijohn
01-27-2012, 12:55 PM
Why do you think Sony bribed all the major studios to use BLU-RAY and put HD-DVD out of the contest. Not right but that is exactly what they did.

Go back to BetaVision. Better than the VCR but it was about the tapes and movie companies. Microsoft isnt where they are because they are the best, it is because they are the smartest.

That One Guy
01-27-2012, 01:00 PM
I don't know about bribes and such, but Blockbuster is who decided BLU-RAY would win.

I always heard porn companies make these decisions.

Willynowei
01-27-2012, 01:01 PM
Blu-ray won because of a superior list of content providers; and the content providers were swayed in part by the install base lead that the PS3 provided. In fact, it was not so much the sales of the PS3 but the potential and predicted sales of the PS3 that made people jump on the Blu-ray bandwagon early; allowing it to build stronger momentum than its competition (after all the PS2 had a worldwide install base of over 200 million units).

Blu-ray also won because their format supported stronger encryption technology that put content providers at ease. These are the two main reasons that Blu-ray won out, most other factors are minimal, including its storage capacity advantages.

The increased capacity of Blu-ray players provides quality differences that are mostly unnoticeable. This is because the most advanced high definition video codecs do not require the capacity that blu-ray discs sported. Lengthy movies with 1080p encoding can fit on a dual layer dvd without increased capacity.

Most of the capacity of the storage disc is used for the audio track. HD-DVD technology used high fidelity compression technologies to minimize, if not completely eliminate quality loss. Blu-ray storage capacity allowed for uncompressed 7 channel audio - certainly the highest quality audio output available. However, i would venture to guess that penetration of 7 channel audio setups capable of quality linear PCM output is far less than 1% of the market today, and is unlikely to grow past 1% anytime soon.

Even when the audio system is good enough for a listener to distinguish between high quality compression technology and true linear PCM, only trained individuals can even hear the difference.

The third and final reason that Blu-ray won is oddly enough, because the upfront player was more expensive; which allows retail outlets to earn more revenue per section of shelf space. Thus, best buy has more incentive to tell you that blu-ray is superior technology, than to say that both are the same.

HD-DVD backers pushed for increased capacity versions using multi-layering setups, however this was mostly an attempt to stay even on the advertisement sheet, and because volume production of the discs allowed for it.

Fedaykin
01-27-2012, 01:27 PM
You should see what DRM is doing to public libraries. It's nuts.

DRM is the worst aspect: The only people DRM causes a problem for are the legit customers who lose their DRM information (several people in this thread have provided examples). The pirates have the crack within hours of the release (often even before the release).

All software DRM is trivial to crack.

BroncoBeavis
01-27-2012, 02:24 PM
Prices don't drop. When the entire industry switched from cartridges to CDs, prices didn't drop at all, even though production costs dropped dramatically. You weren't buying actual chips and memory crammed into that little box anymore, you were buying a cheap CD that cost a couple of pennies to push out. Games still sold in the $50-60 dollar range.

Trust me, they are smart, which is why they keep charging what they've been charging. Because that is what people will pay.
True- cds and dvds lowered physical production cost. But newer tech also brought much higher game production costs.

Supply and demand still reigns. If they take resale away from game buyers there is downside in that gamers will be more selective about what they buy.

On a macro scale they have to compensate for it somehow. Or a competitor will be happy to do it for them.

Willynowei
01-27-2012, 02:45 PM
My boys were like: "If we can't play used games on the 720, then we don't want it."

Fact is: we're doing fine without Blu-Ray. And we already have a standalone Kinect. So other than a performance boost, the 720 doesn't offer anything groundbreaking. And the last time I looked, my boys weren't complaining about lagging render times on the XBox 360.

So far, there's nothing about the 720 that says: "Must Have Now!".

Well it hasn't even been announced yet.

When they come out w/ Kinect 2.0 and all your kid's friends have call of duty 9 with graphics that make the xbox 360 look like the nintendo wii; you're going to be compelled to shell out the dough.

This entire thing was probably a leak to get a gauge on consumer reaction before they commit brand suicide.

Boobs McGee
01-27-2012, 03:05 PM
Well it hasn't even been announced yet.

When they come out w/ Kinect 2.0 and all your kid's friends have call of duty 9 with graphics that make the xbox 360 look like the nintendo wii; you're going to be compelled to shell out the dough.

This entire thing was probably a leak to get a gauge on consumer reaction before they commit brand suicide.

this.

Jetmeck
01-27-2012, 03:28 PM
That is very wrong. It is impissible for HD-DVD to hold as much as Blu-ray. This is because of the difference in red light vs blue light.

Why is there an HD-DVD fanboy? Did you bet on them and buy a bunch of them?

I don't know about bribes and such, but Blockbuster is who decided BLU-RAY would win.

Don't own one, Should have been decided by the consumer. If you bother to get informed HD-DVD was well ahead in sales until Sony bought off the competition at the studios. Last I looked they make the movies and decide which format they will use........not Blockbuster !

Jetmeck
01-27-2012, 03:29 PM
Well it hasn't even been announced yet.

When they come out w/ Kinect 2.0 and all your kid's friends have call of duty 9 with graphics that make the xbox 360 look like the nintendo wii; you're going to be compelled to shell out the dough.

This entire thing was probably a leak to get a gauge on consumer reaction before they commit brand suicide.

If this is the case they have their answer then.

Jetmeck
01-27-2012, 03:30 PM
DRM is the worst aspect: The only people DRM causes a problem for are the legit customers who lose their DRM information (several people in this thread have provided examples). The pirates have the crack within hours of the release (often even before the release).

All software DRM is trivial to crack.

Deal with piracy. Deal with the criminals. Don't **** with the average Joe six pack. MPAA thinks it s easier to screw us all.

Jetmeck
01-27-2012, 03:35 PM
Blu-ray won because of a superior list of content providers; and the content providers were swayed in part by the install base lead that the PS3 provided. In fact, it was not so much the sales of the PS3 but the potential and predicted sales of the PS3 that made people jump on the Blu-ray bandwagon early; allowing it to build stronger momentum than its competition (after all the PS2 had a worldwide install base of over 200 million units).

Blu-ray also won because their format supported stronger encryption technology that put content providers at ease. These are the two main reasons that Blu-ray won out, most other factors are minimal, including its storage capacity advantages.

The increased capacity of Blu-ray players provides quality differences that are mostly unnoticeable. This is because the most advanced high definition video codecs do not require the capacity that blu-ray discs sported. Lengthy movies with 1080p encoding can fit on a dual layer dvd without increased capacity.

Most of the capacity of the storage disc is used for the audio track. HD-DVD technology used high fidelity compression technologies to minimize, if not completely eliminate quality loss. Blu-ray storage capacity allowed for uncompressed 7 channel audio - certainly the highest quality audio output available. However, i would venture to guess that penetration of 7 channel audio setups capable of quality linear PCM output is far less than 1% of the market today, and is unlikely to grow past 1% anytime soon.

Even when the audio system is good enough for a listener to distinguish between high quality compression technology and true linear PCM, only trained individuals can even hear the difference.

The third and final reason that Blu-ray won is oddly enough, because the upfront player was more expensive; which allows retail outlets to earn more revenue per section of shelf space. Thus, best buy has more incentive to tell you that blu-ray is superior technology, than to say that both are the same.

HD-DVD backers pushed for increased capacity versions using multi-layering setups, however this was mostly an attempt to stay even on the advertisement sheet, and because volume production of the discs allowed for it.

HD-DVD had 7.1 uncompressed. It was never a storage capacity issue.

If so what is that extra capacity being used for today ? Exactly, it isnt. Sony won the war with money. They weren't going to lose out again.

Willynowei
01-27-2012, 03:46 PM
HD-DVD had 7.1 uncompressed. It was never a storage capacity issue.

If so what is that extra capacity being used for today ? Exactly, it isnt. Sony won the war with money. They weren't going to lose out again.

I don't believe this to be true. When HD-DVD was first released, it did not support lossless 7.1 channel audio. Some players supported it but the discs didn't.

I believe initial movies shipped with Dolby Digital Plus and DTS High Res

Both are lossy.

Support for Linear PCM and Lossless codecs did not extend to all 7 channels for some time, I'm pretty sure of this.

Also, if you rip off a Blu-ray disc you will find that the capacity is used up.

And from a tech standpoint, I think anti-piracy protection should be included in the conversation for which tech was superior. HD-DVD was immediately ripped off, Blu-ray took a while and you had to get unique keys for each disc - it was a nightmare for pirates = probably the biggest reason content providers sided with sony.

Bronx33
01-27-2012, 05:39 PM
Fact is they have us by the balls if you wanna game and having kids usually makes it worse on your pocket book with that being said i will happily play my ps3 as long as i can just got BF3 and its flat wicked.