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View Full Version : Couple Finally Reveals Child's Gender, Five Years After Birth


Bronx33
01-21-2012, 08:25 AM
So what do you think of this?? cluster**** of parenting.


It's a boy! (http://shine.yahoo.com/parenting/couple-finally-reveals-childs-gender-five-years-birth-180300388.html) And he's five. Beck Laxton, 46, and partner Kieran Cooper, 44, have spent half the decade concealing the gender of their son, Sasha.

"I wanted to avoid all that stereotyping," Laxton said in an interview with the Cambridge News. "Stereotypes seem fundamentally stupid. Why would you want to slot people into boxes?"

Take a look at the most controversial parenting stories of the year.

Laxton, a UK-based web editor, and her partner, Cooper, decided to keep Sasha's sex a secret when he was still in the womb. The birth announcement stated the gender-neutral name of their child, but skipped the big reveal. Up until recently, the couple only told a few close friends and family members that Sasha was a boy and managed to keep the rest of the world in the dark. But now that he's starting school the secret's out.


more on link

MortonToMoses
01-21-2012, 08:36 AM
They might as well start putting money away now to pay for the kid's future therapy bills.

crush17
01-21-2012, 08:40 AM
This is stupid.

Vegas_Bronco
01-21-2012, 08:43 AM
Why not just adopt a monosomy or trisomy...instead of trying to mess up someones life why not try to help a less fortunate life.

Bronx33
01-21-2012, 08:46 AM
I started thinking about this kid years down the road when this experiment could potentially start to surface its a complete unknown psychologically and these nimrods still did it.

Now i have no problems with gay people and i support their right to have kids but i really think they screwed up this kid at a very impressionable age and it wasn't their choice to make this early in his life imo.

Kaylore
01-21-2012, 09:30 AM
"Stereotypes seem fundamentally stupid. Why would you want to slot people into boxes?"

I don't know, to avoid them being teased, ridiculed and confused later in life? If they still are having problems by the time they're adolescents, you can revisit the issue and explore other options. I fail to see how this added anything other that making a pair of cultural relativists feel good about themselves.

DarkHorse
01-21-2012, 09:34 AM
I don't understand - why is this news? Are these people celebs or something?

Dr. Broncenstein
01-21-2012, 10:17 AM
Dear Kid,

Run away at your earliest convenience.

Your pal,

Doc B

McDman
01-21-2012, 10:19 AM
I'm pretty sure we just found MacGruder. He wouldn't want his kid to be a sheep to society's stereotypes.

Jay3
01-21-2012, 10:50 AM
Just perfect -- wait until he's school age and at the last minute, "You're part of the gender that gives each other beatings. Good luck!"

Bronx33
01-21-2012, 10:53 AM
Just perfect -- wait until he's school age and at the last minute, "You're part of the gender that gives each other beatings. Good luck!"


I am sure his purse will provide ample protection :~ohyah!:

Archer81
01-21-2012, 11:30 AM
I remember the article about these parents. They have two other kids they do the same thing with. Wear what they want, in whatever color. Hair as long as they want, fingernails painted, ect.

Knowing gender is important for psychological development. It just is. These people are doing their children no favors.

:Broncos:

houghtam
01-21-2012, 11:53 AM
I remember the article about these parents. They have two other kids they do the same thing with. Wear what they want, in whatever color. Hair as long as they want, fingernails painted, ect.

Knowing gender is important for psychological development. It just is. These people are doing their children no favors.

:Broncos:

I think gender stereotypes are a bit ridiculous at times, but I agree with you..and all of us were kids at one point. Regardless of what type of person we are now, which one of us didn't tease kids who were different at that age? In the article, one of the parents said they hadn't had any problems with it so far...Bull****. Either your kid hasn't told you or you haven't told us, because I'm sure in that classroom it's like dropping blood into shark infested waters.

Dr. Broncenstein
01-21-2012, 11:54 AM
http://content2.catalog.photos.msn.com/ds/pic-en-us/picenus_msnentertainment/MSNE/4adc7f90-1a32-4ea3-b20d-55f36ae8407f.jpg

Miss I.
01-21-2012, 12:17 PM
I started thinking about this kid years down the road when this experiment could potentially start to surface its a complete unknown psychologically and these nimrods still did it.

Now i have no problems with gay people and i support their right to have kids but i really think they screwed up this kid at a very impressionable age and it wasn't their choice to make this early in his life imo.

How does this relate to gay people? It's a woman and a man raising the kids, all three of their kids, 2 boys and 1 girl evidently.

Rohirrim
01-21-2012, 12:23 PM
What do people have against nature?

Dedhed
01-21-2012, 12:32 PM
How does this relate to gay people? It's a woman and a man raising the kids, all three of their kids, 2 boys and 1 girl evidently.

It only relates because Bronx operates on the giant assumption that this must be a gay couple.

Dedhed
01-21-2012, 12:34 PM
What do people have against nature?

What does nature have to do with gender roles defined by a fear driven society?

Dedhed
01-21-2012, 12:36 PM
I think gender stereotypes are a bit ridiculous at times, but I agree with you..and all of us were kids at one point. Regardless of what type of person we are now, which one of us didn't tease kids who were different at that age? In the article, one of the parents said they hadn't had any problems with it so far...Bull****. Either your kid hasn't told you or you haven't told us, because I'm sure in that classroom it's like dropping blood into shark infested waters.
I don't think you have a clue what you're talking about. Are you imagining that the kid is going into the classroom with a postcard around his neck that says. "Hey, my parents did't tell anyone about my gender until recently, kick my ass".

houghtam
01-21-2012, 12:36 PM
It only relates because Bronx operates on the giant assumption that this must be a gay couple.

Well to be fair, the article did say they were "partners", which is often used to describe gay couples, and the parents' names are Beck and Kieran...not exactly clear what gender either of them are, so I honestly assumed it was a gay couple as well.

I do not, however, subscribe to the absurd notion that somehow gay people are less fit to be parents than straight ones.

Dr. Broncenstein
01-21-2012, 12:37 PM
<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/k7c16swRoMU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

houghtam
01-21-2012, 12:37 PM
I don't think you have a clue what you're talking about. Are you imagining that the kid is going into the classroom with a postcard around his neck that says. "Hey, my parents did't tell anyone about my gender until recently, kick my ass".

No, I'm imagining the kid is going into the classroom wearing a girl's blouse, like the article said.

When Sasha turned five and headed to school, Laxton was forced to make her son's sex public. That meant Sasha would have to get used to being a boy in the eyes of his peers. Still, his mom is intervening. While the school requires different uniforms for boys and girls, Sasha wears a girl's blouse with his pants.

Rohirrim
01-21-2012, 12:47 PM
What does nature have to do with gender roles defined by a fear driven society?

Watch any pair of mammals, birds, reptiles, amphibians, insects or whatever living creature you prefer. Males act differently than females. Nature hardwires different prerogatives into each gender.

Dr. Broncenstein
01-21-2012, 12:49 PM
<iframe width="480" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/ujRwl6dL9go" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Miss I.
01-21-2012, 12:51 PM
Gender is something we define. Sex is biological. I think hiding the factual sexual identity of the child is a little strange and could lead to some ideas that their sex is a bad thing. Males have penises, Females have vaginas. This defines our sex.

Our gender is sociologically constructed and does help define us, not always in helpful ways. We've defined somethings as feminine and some as masculine and tied them to sex. For example, being nurturing tends to be ascribed as feminine. Being violent and physically tough is defined as masculine. That's a societal definition. Is some based in biology? Sure. Men physically have different levels of hormones and certain things that biologically give them some physical advantages in certain situations, but to define strength as being specifically male is problematic, since Strength is a broad concept and can encompass a variety of things, so things like that being tied to sex is problematic and thus the discussion of gender roles emerged in a lot of feminist texts.

People are varied. Unless born with both parts, the only thing certain is sex. The rest is a a mix of nature and nurture. I understand what this couple thought they were doing, but I think their method is fundamentally flawed. It comes across as trying to shield the child from acknowledging their sexuality and being okay with being biologically a boy. If they want the kid to learn that gender roles are more than a product of their sex then they should not have hidden the factual biological identity from people and instead just raised him to understand the idea of gender vs sex idenitities. They could illustrate through interactions that certain traits are not inherently male or female, they are just human and it's okay to display those without defining them as male or female traits.

But what do I know, I don't have kids.

Miss I.
01-21-2012, 12:52 PM
Well to be fair, the article did say they were "partners", which is often used to describe gay couples, and the parents' names are Beck and Kieran...not exactly clear what gender either of them are, so I honestly assumed it was a gay couple as well.

I do not, however, subscribe to the absurd notion that somehow gay people are less fit to be parents than straight ones.

The couple is British and in England and Europe the term partner is not related to gay people, all couples, married or not, straight or not, describe their significant other as a partner. But to be fair, I thought that when I got over to England and figured it out eventually.

Dedhed
01-21-2012, 12:54 PM
Watch any pair of mammals, birds, reptiles, amphibians, insects or whatever living creature you prefer. Males act differently than females. Nature hardwires different prerogatives into each gender.

100% of them act differently across all species? Um...that's moronic, and clearly you don't have much experience in the sciences.

Dedhed
01-21-2012, 12:55 PM
not exactly clear what gender either of them are, so I honestly assumed it was a gay couple as well.
I think you've proven the couple's point.

houghtam
01-21-2012, 12:57 PM
Watch any pair of mammals, birds, reptiles, amphibians, insects or whatever living creature you prefer. Males act differently than females. Nature hardwires different prerogatives into each gender.

Not only do they act differently, their roles are different. I wonder if Dedhed thinks it's a fear driven society that causes a male penguin to go hunt for fish while the female guards the nest?

Dedhed
01-21-2012, 12:57 PM
No, I'm imagining the kid is going into the classroom wearing a girl's blouse, like the article said.

Alright, I agree that's a little f'ed if the mother told the kid to wear the blouse, but if the kid wants to wear it and the mother obliged, who cares. The kid will have to deal with whatever consequences there are.

The point is to give the child the choice.

Dedhed
01-21-2012, 01:02 PM
Not only do they act differently, their roles are different. I wonder if Dedhed thinks it's a fear driven society that causes a male penguin to go hunt for fish while the female guards the nest?You couldn't be more wrong.

The male watches the egg, and most penguins don't have nests.

Dr. Broncenstein
01-21-2012, 01:03 PM
Not only do they act differently, their roles are different. I wonder if Dedhed thinks it's a fear driven society that causes a male penguin to go hunt for fish while the female guards the nest?

I'm no ornithologist, but something seems off here.

Rohirrim
01-21-2012, 01:06 PM
100% of them act differently across all species? Um...that's moronic, and clearly you don't have much experience in the sciences.

Oh yeah, if you can find a single exception in all of nature, that means the rule doesn't apply. Speaking of moronic. Name some mammals that don't exhibit gender differentiation and gender specific behaviors. Humans should spend more time accepting what nature has to offer instead of using their big brains to pretend that nature doesn't dictate to them as well. One of the major problems that this crazy primate, man, is having right now is caused by his inability to accept that he too is part of nature.

houghtam
01-21-2012, 01:09 PM
You couldn't be more wrong.

The male watches the egg, and most penguins don't have nests.

Derp. My point still stands, although the example was wrong. Gender defines roles in nature, society simply makes things worse.

Dedhed
01-21-2012, 01:12 PM
Oh yeah, if you can find a single exception in all of nature, that means the rule doesn't apply. Speaking of moronic. Name some mammals that don't exhibit gender differentiation and gender specific behaviors.That isn't at all the point. Name some mammals that don't exhibit a spectrum of gender specific behaviors across both genders. That is that is the point.


Humans should spend more time accepting what nature has to offer instead of using their big brains to pretend that nature doesn't dictate to them as well. One of the major problems that this crazy primate, man, is having right now is caused by his inability to accept that he too is part of nature.

So you're saying we should accept what nature gives but not use the larger brains that nature has given us. Good take!:wave:

houghtam
01-21-2012, 01:13 PM
I think you've proven the couple's point.

No, the couple's point as I understood it was that to know someone's gender is inherently a bad thing. If I had said "They used the word partner, and I assumed they were gay, and those homos shouldn't be allowed to raise kids", THAT would be proving the couple's point.

Miss I.
01-21-2012, 01:14 PM
here, it's very simple....

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/PQvnZOR_oIk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Dedhed
01-21-2012, 01:16 PM
No, the couple's point as I understood it was that to know someone's gender is inherently a bad thing. If I had said "They used the word partner, and I assumed they were gay, and those homos shouldn't be allowed to raise kids", THAT would be proving the couple's point.

You've very clearly missed the point. The point is not having gender roles forced on their children, but allowing the child to choose.

Twice in this thread you've made inaccurate assumptions based on gender roles. One in the gay take, and another in the penguin take; assuming that the male penguin does the hunting because that's the manly thing to do.

Rohirrim
01-21-2012, 01:19 PM
That isn't at all the point. Name some mammals that don't exhibit a spectrum of gender specific behaviors across both genders. That is that is the point.




So you're saying we should accept what nature gives but not use the larger brains that nature has given us. Good take!:wave:

This is why I don't debate with you. At any moment, you will simply fall on your dum*** button and short circuit.

Lestat
01-21-2012, 01:21 PM
what does telling people that your kid is a boy or a girl have to do with stereotypes?
the kid is either gonna eff or get effed when they're older so what purpose does it serve to not tell the gender beforehand? it's not like he's a hermaphrodite or something where he has to choose one or the other.

houghtam
01-21-2012, 01:24 PM
You've very clearly missed the point. The point is not having gender roles forced on their children, but allowing the child to choose.

Twice in this thread you've made inaccurate assumptions based on gender roles. One in the gay take, and another in the penguin take; assuming that the male penguin does the hunting because that's the manly thing to do.

No, I wasn't assuming anything about penguins, I was simply not remembering March of the Penguins as well as I would have liked. What can I say, I was high when I watched it.

The point you're missing is that, as Rohirrim pointed out, there are some gender-specific roles in nature that are tied to that particular gender across most species. Just because there are some roles that both genders fill does not diminish the importance of having those roles defined. Add to that the fact that these parents are forcing something on their child that many psychologists say may damage the child's development in society, and that children by nature are base, mean, cruel little creatures, and IMO you're simply tempting fate to screw your kid up.

There are other ways to emphasize the importance or lack thereof of gender roles... I don't believe ignoring or hiding this child's gender is a smart way of doing so.

Dedhed
01-21-2012, 01:25 PM
This is why I don't debate with you. At any moment, you will simply fall on your dum*** button and short circuit.

This is why I don't debate you. As soon as I point out the blatant flaw in your argument you poop your pants and go home; yelling names over your shoulder.

You completely contradict yourself in your nature take, I point it out, and you commence the name calling. Same old Roh.

Rohirrim
01-21-2012, 01:25 PM
What we should be teaching children is that people are different for a whole variety of reasons and we want to build a culture, and a society, where people can get along regardless of our differences and that everybody is entitled to equal opportunity regardless of differences.

Teaching children that everybody is the same is just political correctness gone berserk.

Rohirrim
01-21-2012, 01:26 PM
This is why I don't debate you. As soon as I point out the blatant flaw in your argument you poop your pants and go home; yelling names over your shoulder.

You completely contradict yourself in your nature take, I point it out, and you commence the name calling. Same old Roh.

What contradiction? Where?

Dedhed
01-21-2012, 01:34 PM
No, I wasn't assuming anything about penguins, I was simply not remembering March of the Penguins as well as I would have liked. What can I say, I was high when I watched it.

The point you're missing is that, as Rohirrim pointed out, there are some gender-specific roles in nature that are tied to that particular gender across most species.I'm not missing that point at all. I'm saying that there are always variations on those roles, and that our "Nature-given" brains make those roles infinitely more flexible than any other species out there.

Of course ROh wants us to accept natural gender roles, but not use our superior intelligence to consider and challenge what those roles are and how they impact our lives.

Just because there are some roles that both genders fill does not diminish the importance of having those roles defined. Add to that the fact that these parents are forcing something on their child that many psychologists say may damage the child's development in society, and that children by nature are base, mean, cruel little creatures, and IMO you're simply tempting fate to screw your kid up.If you want to see damaged development, talk with someone who was raised contrary to how they perceived their own gender.

I think that's what these parents are trying to avoid. I don't completely agree with their way of going about it, but I don't think it's inherently more damaging to the child than a lot of other dumb things "normal" parenting does.

There are other ways to emphasize the importance or lack thereof of gender roles... I don't believe ignoring or hiding this child's gender is a smart way of doing so.I agree.

Dedhed
01-21-2012, 01:38 PM
What contradiction? Where?

Where you want people to accept "natural" gender roles, but not to use our "natural" intelligence to consider and challenge whether those roles suit us.

Which is it? How can we both accept nature and at the same time deny what nature has given us?

Nature has clearly given us the faculties to challenge gender roles, so by your rationale that's exactly what we should be doing; it's natural.

SonOfLe-loLang
01-21-2012, 01:58 PM
I've written about this!

http://peelingtheskin.blogspot.com/2011/05/should-we-raise-children-without-gender.html

Rohirrim
01-21-2012, 02:02 PM
Where you want people to accept "natural" gender roles, but not to use our "natural" intelligence to consider and challenge whether those roles suit us.

Which is it? How can we both accept nature and at the same time deny what nature has given us?

Nature has clearly given us the faculties to challenge gender roles, so by your rationale that's exactly what we should be doing; it's natural.

You can mentally "challenge" anything you like, but it's merely a fantasy. The genetic blueprint will dictate that males of the mammalian order will be pumped full of testosterone, and take on whatever differentiations that entails, and females will get the same in estrogen. Rather than pretending there are no differences, I think we should teach children all about the differences, where they came from, what they can expect to run into as they reach puberty and beyond, how they can learn to deal with these differences, and how to accept the realities of the natural world while understanding that we are on equal plane when it comes to rights.

Trying to impose a "genderless world" on a world filled with gender differentiation is just silliness.

Miss I.
01-21-2012, 02:17 PM
okay, but what things are gender/sex determined? Some, if not most behavior is taught and constructed from a variety of sources. What I consider feminine behavior may not be the same as someone else's ideas.

houghtam
01-21-2012, 02:21 PM
okay, but what things are gender/sex determined? Some, if not most behavior is taught and constructed from a variety of sources. What I consider feminine behavior may not be the same as someone else's ideas.

Don't ask me, I'm a stay at home dad.

LOL

ThirtyDegrees
01-21-2012, 02:26 PM
Wow, Rohirrim's ignorance about what gender constitutes is amazing.

Sex and sexual dimorphism are not the same as gender and gender roles. Gender roles are culturally constructed, therefore it's questionable whether non-human animals exhibit gender roles at all.

It isn't up for debate, gender is culturally constructed. It is not essential or biological, and anyone that believes otherwise is either ignorant or wrong.

Archer81
01-21-2012, 02:30 PM
okay, but what things are gender/sex determined? Some, if not most behavior is taught and constructed from a variety of sources. What I consider feminine behavior may not be the same as someone else's ideas.


I dont think gender is always associated with sex, if that makes any sense.

The two people raising their children have the right to raise their kids anyway they see fit. But in doing so, they have to realize at some point their children will come into contact with other children. Kids are cruel, sadistic, vindictive bastards. We all went through that. An example, there was a kid in my 5th grade class named Dusty Walls. I mean come on. In 3rd grade there was a kid that was called Chris C. Chris-see. Chrissy. These were too easy. Now if you have a son named Sasha wearing girl's blouses...well that kid is going to come home in tears more often than not.

:Broncos:

Ratboy
01-21-2012, 02:33 PM
Poor kid.

ThirtyDegrees
01-21-2012, 02:34 PM
I dont think gender is always associated with sex, if that makes any sense.

The two people raising their children have the right to raise their kids anyway they see fit. But in doing so, they have to realize at some point their children will come into contact with other children. Kids are cruel, sadistic, vindictive bastards. We all went through that. An example, there was a kid in my 5th grade class named Dusty Walls. I mean come on. In 3rd grade there was a kid that was called Chris C. Chris-see. Chrissy. These were too easy. Now if you have a son named Sasha wearing girl's blouses...well that kid is going to come home in tears more often than not.

:Broncos:

Kids police gender roles because adults police gender roles. One of the ways adults do so is by saying that only female-sexed children can wear dresses to school.

If the policies were different, and the children were taught that male-sexed and female-sexed kids could wear whatever they want, it wouldn't be an issue.

Miss I.
01-21-2012, 02:35 PM
Wow, Rohirrim's ignorance about what gender constitutes is amazing.

Sex and sexual dimorphism are not the same as gender and gender roles. Gender roles are culturally constructed, therefore it's questionable whether non-human animals exhibit gender roles at all.

It isn't up for debate, gender is culturally constructed. It is not essential or biological, and anyone that believes otherwise is either ignorant or wrong.

This is in line with my thinking also and I would guess this is also where the parent's thinking in the article came from, but I don't think denying the child's sex is helpful. If anything it by denying the sex, it's almost saying sex does determine behavior and creates gender roles.

SonOfLe-loLang
01-21-2012, 02:35 PM
Kids police gender roles because adults police gender roles. One of the ways adults do so is by saying that only female-sexed children can wear dresses to school.

If the policies were different, and the children were taught that male-sexed and female-sexed kids could wear whatever they want, it wouldn't be an issue.

Sure, but the reality is that they do and that's not changing. I think to challenge it might be admirable, but you're probably do the child more harm than good. Plus, there are ways of rebelling against it without going to extremes that will have counter productive results

Archer81
01-21-2012, 02:36 PM
Kids police gender roles because adults police gender roles. One of the ways adults do so is by saying that only female-sexed children can wear dresses to school.

If the policies were different, and the children were taught that male-sexed and female-sexed kids could wear whatever they want, it wouldn't be an issue.


Yes. I'm sure kids would never tease other kids if "gender policies" were different...


:Broncos:

SonOfLe-loLang
01-21-2012, 02:37 PM
Yes. I'm sure kids would never tease other kids if "gender policies" were different...


:Broncos:

haha as i always say, kids invented the term "michael michael motorcycle." They are gonna make fun of each other regardless.

ThirtyDegrees
01-21-2012, 02:38 PM
This is in line with my thinking also and I would guess this is also where the parent's thinking in the article came from, but I don't think denying the child's sex is helpful. If anything it by denying the sex, it's almost saying sex does determine behavior and creates gender roles.

The problem is that the revelation of the child's sex determines how other adults treat the child. Birthday gifts, compliments, conversations, punishments and many other things are driven by whether or not we see a child as a "boy" or a "girl".

I was about five years old before I even knew that girls had different body parts from boys. I could only tell them apart based upon how people treated them and other completely culturally constructed signifiers of gender.

Kaylore
01-21-2012, 02:43 PM
Gender is something we define. Sex is biological. I think hiding the factual sexual identity of the child is a little strange and could lead to some ideas that their sex is a bad thing. Males have penises, Females have vaginas. This defines our sex.

Our gender is sociologically constructed and does help define us, not always in helpful ways. We've defined somethings as feminine and some as masculine and tied them to sex. For example, being nurturing tends to be ascribed as feminine. Being violent and physically tough is defined as masculine. That's a societal definition. Is some based in biology? Sure. Men physically have different levels of hormones and certain things that biologically give them some physical advantages in certain situations, but to define strength as being specifically male is problematic, since Strength is a broad concept and can encompass a variety of things, so things like that being tied to sex is problematic and thus the discussion of gender roles emerged in a lot of feminist texts.

People are varied. Unless born with both parts, the only thing certain is sex. The rest is a a mix of nature and nurture. I understand what this couple thought they were doing, but I think their method is fundamentally flawed. It comes across as trying to shield the child from acknowledging their sexuality and being okay with being biologically a boy. If they want the kid to learn that gender roles are more than a product of their sex then they should not have hidden the factual biological identity from people and instead just raised him to understand the idea of gender vs sex idenitities. They could illustrate through interactions that certain traits are not inherently male or female, they are just human and it's okay to display those without defining them as male or female traits.

But what do I know, I don't have kids.

Sorry hon, but this is mostly untrue.

Talk to any brain scientist or take care of few different babies to see for yourself; Most of our core personality traits, including things like gender, attraction, etc. are hard-wired in our DNA and brain patterns.

The "blank slate theory", where we are purely a product of our environment, has been utterly debunked.

Of course, we adopt the habits of the society we're around, and some of our beliefs are shaped by out parents and society we're raised in - but who we are at a very core level is established right out of the womb.

Archer81
01-21-2012, 02:47 PM
The problem is that the revelation of the child's sex determines how other adults treat the child. Birthday gifts, compliments, conversations, punishments and many other things are driven by whether or not we see a child as a "boy" or a "girl".

I was about five years old before I even knew that girls had different body parts from boys. I could only tell them apart based upon how people treated them and other completely culturally constructed signifiers of gender.


And how is that a problem?


:Broncos:

Miss I.
01-21-2012, 02:47 PM
The problem is that the revelation of the child's sex determines how other adults treat the child. Birthday gifts, compliments, conversations, punishments and many other things are driven by whether or not we see a child as a "boy" or a "girl".

I was about five years old before I even knew that girls had different body parts from boys. I could only tell them apart based upon how people treated them and other completely culturally constructed signifiers of gender.

But you never can control anyone's behavior including the child. There really isn't a right answer to this question. No matter what, we are all influenced by nature and nurture, gender and sex definitions. And even though I understand the sex vs gender definitions, doesn't mean I am not fully ingrained with ideas about what is considered feminine or masculine and probably do exhibit some behaviors as a result. Some I fight against, others I don't.

ThirtyDegrees
01-21-2012, 02:49 PM
Sorry hon, but this is mostly untrue.

Talk to any brain scientist or take care of few different babies to see for yourself; Most of our core personality traits, including things like gender, attraction, etc. are hard-wired in our DNA and brain patterns.

The "blank slate theory", where we are purely a product of our environment, has been utterly debunked.

Of course, we adopt the habits of the society we're around, and some of our beliefs are shaped by out parents and society we're raised in - but who we are at a very core level is established right out of the womb.

Your post is completely false. Masculinity and femininity have nothing to do with brain patterns and DNA.

What people consider "manly" or "girly", what's prissy or tough, what's for boys and what's for girls has nothing to do with anything other than socially constructed norms.

Actual human history, as opposed to the number of neuroscientists you're supposedly in contact with, disagrees with you.

ThirtyDegrees
01-21-2012, 02:50 PM
And how is that a problem?


:Broncos:

Because people kill themselves or otherwise suffer when they wish to act in ways that society says men or women should not behave due to gender roles.

Archer81
01-21-2012, 02:54 PM
Because people kill themselves or otherwise suffer when they wish to act in ways that society says men or women should not behave due to gender roles.


Ah. So suicidal people are blameless. Society is to blame.

That's not new at all, is it.


:Broncos:

Miss I.
01-21-2012, 02:55 PM
Sorry hon, but this is mostly untrue.

Talk to any brain scientist or take care of few different babies to see for yourself; Most of our core personality traits, including things like gender, attraction, etc. are hard-wired in our DNA and brain patterns.

The "blank slate theory", where we are purely a product of our environment, has been utterly debunked.

Of course, we adopt the habits of the society we're around, and some of our beliefs are shaped by out parents and society we're raised in - but who we are at a very core level is established right out of the womb.

I am NOT saying we are purely a product of our environment. That's just too simplistic. We are a product of nature and nurture. Some things are tied to biology. My hormones absolutely influence my behavior, but nurture can fight some of that. Just because I get especially pissy just before my menstrual cycle doesn't mean I can't control my reactions to people. Learning to control my reactions and behaviors is a product of nurture, not nature.

Bronx33
01-21-2012, 02:56 PM
How does this relate to gay people? It's a woman and a man raising the kids, all three of their kids, 2 boys and 1 girl evidently.

damn sorry they both looked like gals (my bad)

edit: the story talks about 2 couples Beck Laxton, 46, and partner Kieran Cooper, 44,

Miss I.
01-21-2012, 03:01 PM
damn sorry they both looked like gals (my bad)

Nah, they are just English...tee hee...I am going to hell now...:curtsey:

Bronx33
01-21-2012, 03:02 PM
Well to be fair, the article did say they were "partners", which is often used to describe gay couples, and the parents' names are Beck and Kieran...not exactly clear what gender either of them are, so I honestly assumed it was a gay couple as well.

I do not, however, subscribe to the absurd notion that somehow gay people are less fit to be parents than straight ones.



Thats how i saw it if i am wrong i apologize but it still doesnt make it right imo.

Rohirrim
01-21-2012, 03:05 PM
Wow, Rohirrim's ignorance about what gender constitutes is amazing.

Sex and sexual dimorphism are not the same as gender and gender roles. Gender roles are culturally constructed, therefore it's questionable whether non-human animals exhibit gender roles at all.

It isn't up for debate, gender is culturally constructed. It is not essential or biological, and anyone that believes otherwise is either ignorant or wrong.

What a well constructed argument: It isn't up for debate ergo Roh is ignorant. Well done.

I hadn't heard that the "nature vs nurture" argument had been decided. We should alert the anthropology, psychology and sociology departments around the world and let them know.

I'm sure in the arena of "political correctness" the issue has been resolved. I spent some time on the study of wolves, and I assure you, the idea of gender roles as a strictly cultural construct is not accepted dogma. But let's talk humans.

Here's a concept for you: Let's say you took a baby girl and a baby boy, put them on an island somewhere and somehow miraculously, without any interference from anyone, they were able to survive to adulthood. Do you think at puberty they would not begin to exhibit some differences in gender roles and pursue different survival concepts and emphases? We have seen in primitive cultures and in some archeological evidence that males tend to be the hunters while females tend to be the gatherers. Is that nurture, or nature? Were females not the hunters because the patriarchal society dictated their role in the society, or because they naturally gravitated toward a different emphasis?

I'll tell you some more of my ignorant stuff; Trying to separate nature from nurture is not as difficult as separating gender from gender politics.

houghtam
01-21-2012, 03:05 PM
Kids police gender roles because adults police gender roles. One of the ways adults do so is by saying that only female-sexed children can wear dresses to school.

If the policies were different, and the children were taught that male-sexed and female-sexed kids could wear whatever they want, it wouldn't be an issue.

Yes, one of the ways. Other ways are what you see on tv, read in newspapers, hear on the radio, see on the internet.

Maybe the argument could be made for raising a child to be "genderless" in a secluded society, but like it or not, in our society, they're doing nothing more than making headlines and setting those children up for one hell of an awkward adolescence.

As if getting through puberty wasn't hard enough as it is.

Miss I.
01-21-2012, 03:12 PM
damn sorry they both looked like gals (my bad)

edit: the story talks about 2 couples

I am aware and I was responding about the couple you are now referencing. It's about a UK couple where the term partner is non gender or sexual preference specific, both straight and gay, married and unmarried partners are included. This is actually why I figured you were referring to them as gay, because of the use of "partner." They refer to Becks as female and Kieran could be male or female, but usually is male and since there is not reference to the children being adopted it's likely couple biologically produced the boy. Plus I google searched them and foudn Kieran and Becks as a male and female couple.

I don't agree with their approach because I think it does exactly the reverse of what they think it will do and on top of it makes the kid confused or ashamed of their biological sex.

To me being male or female is a matter of chance and neither is better than the other. Both sexes are necessary components. Biology determines certain things, but nurture determines a great many others.

Kaylore
01-21-2012, 03:19 PM
Your post is completely false. Masculinity and femininity have nothing to do with brain patterns and DNA.

What people consider "manly" or "girly", what's prissy or tough, what's for boys and what's for girls has nothing to do with anything other than socially constructed norms.

Actual human history, as opposed to the number of neuroscientists you're supposedly in contact with, disagrees with you.

Yeah, you can't read.

And if you don't think your brain plays part in what you decide to adopt from society, you're totally clueless.

Lev Vyvanse
01-21-2012, 03:33 PM
Yeah, you can't read.

And if you don't think your brain plays part in what you decide to adopt from society, you're totally clueless.

We're not as hard wired as you think ethier. There have been cases of humans being raised by dogs. Those kids "decided" to run around on all fours and bark.

Rohirrim
01-21-2012, 03:33 PM
Here's another concept: The acceptable political argument for gender roles as the product of culture assumes that they are simply vestigial, like some cultural appendix from judeo-christian patriarchy. The major survival aspects of homo sapiens evolution are brain capacity and social cooperation. That's what got us to where we are today. So, what if gender roles are much older than civilization itself? What if they played a highly beneficial social survival role that goes back hundreds of thousands of years and is now ingrained in our DNA? This would explain the seeming universality of gender roles across different cultures.

Jay3
01-21-2012, 03:34 PM
It isn't up for debate, gender is culturally constructed. It is not essential or biological, and anyone that believes otherwise is either ignorant or wrong.

Quoted for epic failure.

houghtam
01-21-2012, 03:36 PM
We're not as hard wired as you think ethier. There have been cases of humans being raised by dogs. Those kids "decided" to run around on all fours and bark.

Link?

Kaylore
01-21-2012, 03:38 PM
Quoted for epic failure.

Better go tell all those Gay, Lesbian and Transgender people society made them that way! lolz!

broncolife
01-21-2012, 03:42 PM
I don't understand - why is this news? Are these people celebs or something?

I was thinking the same thing.

broncocalijohn
01-21-2012, 06:38 PM
Dear Kid,

Run away at your earliest convenience. Kick your Dad in his mangina on the way out. Your pal,

Doc B

Finished your though for you.

broncocalijohn
01-21-2012, 06:45 PM
Kids police gender roles because adults police gender roles. One of the ways adults do so is by saying that only female-sexed children can wear dresses to school.

If the policies were different, and the children were taught that male-sexed and female-sexed kids could wear whatever they want, it wouldn't be an issue.

Who cares if society has made the issues with style in clothing. There is absolutely nothing wrong with it and has been this way unchanged for thousands of years. As humans, we should not have to apologize are feel like we have done society wrong by making these "rules". That is what makes us different from animals and I think we do a pretty good job of that. These parents are complete morons and I don't see any good reason to go this extreme to a child. My sister in law deals with this sort of thing from her brother and sister in law. There messed up kid is in ballet as a 4th grade boy. Now that doesn't mean much on the surface but when you go this route and then happen to put him in ballet, it is almost doing the exact opposite of wht you were fighting against.

houghtam
01-21-2012, 07:44 PM
Who cares if society has made the issues with style in clothing. There is absolutely nothing wrong with it and has been this way unchanged for thousands of years. As humans, we should not have to apologize are feel like we have done society wrong by making these "rules". That is what makes us different from animals and I think we do a pretty good job of that. These parents are complete morons and I don't see any good reason to go this extreme to a child. My sister in law deals with this sort of thing from her brother and sister in law. There messed up kid is in ballet as a 4th grade boy. Now that doesn't mean much on the surface but when you go this route and then happen to put him in ballet, it is almost doing the exact opposite of wht you were fighting against.

Go what route? I'm pretty sure there is nothing wrong with putting a 4th grade boy in ballet. Did I miss something?

Captain 'Dre
01-21-2012, 10:30 PM
What I want to know is...

Has the kid been told he's a boy? Or are the parents keeping it a secret from him, also?

Has the kid had it explained to him that there are two different genders? Or is he being raised to believe that there is no such thing as gender?

If the parents are withholding basic information, then they're just keeping their kid ignorant and virtually guaranteeing future problems.

Captain 'Dre
01-21-2012, 10:32 PM
Go what route? I'm pretty sure there is nothing wrong with putting a 4th grade boy in ballet.

With or without a tutu? :)

lonestar
01-21-2012, 11:10 PM
still having a problem with sasha looking at his penis and not figuring it out for himself..

Unless they are forcing him to wear a blouse to school, I'd guess that he has a clue..

If not, he is going to get his ass kicked daily untill he does..

strafen
01-21-2012, 11:23 PM
This story makes me sick.
How can they destroy a child like that psychologically?
That's pretty disturbed...

lonestar
01-21-2012, 11:25 PM
This story makes me sick.
How can they destroy a child like that psychologically?
That's pretty disturbed...

"Forgive them Father for they know not what they do"..

broncocalijohn
01-22-2012, 01:09 AM
Go what route? I'm pretty sure there is nothing wrong with putting a 4th grade boy in ballet. Did I miss something?

Why dont you read the after that part. If you are telling everyone you don't want to put a label on your child concerning boy vs girl status and then stick their kid in ballet, you are not actually doing the pushing of choice or neutral but putting your child in situations that are so far extreme to what his gender interests are in normal circumstances. Boys and ballet are a rare combo. If you, without this gender neutral bs, has your son in ballet, might raise eyebrows but isnt extreme. Now change yourself to a parent that preaches gender neutrality and then sticks your child in ballet, there is some hypocrisy going on. That parent is trying to show us that ballet is gender neutral by plopping that boy in a girl dominated environment/activity. Tat parent probably fought against anything like baseball to participate in for extra curricular activities. If the kid wanted to play an instrument, the parent would push the flute on the kid before a Tuba, drums or anything considered "Manly". If you had this feeling before your child was born and then pulled this ****, I would berate you every which way I could do it.

houghtam
01-22-2012, 01:28 AM
Why dont you read the after that part. If you are telling everyone you don't want to put a label on your child concerning boy vs girl status and then stick their kid in ballet, you are not actually doing the pushing of choice or neutral but putting your child in situations that are so far extreme to what his gender interests are in normal circumstances. Boys and ballet are a rare combo. If you, without this gender neutral bs, has your son in ballet, might raise eyebrows but isnt extreme. Now change yourself to a parent that preaches gender neutrality and then sticks your child in ballet, there is some hypocrisy going on. That parent is trying to show us that ballet is gender neutral by plopping that boy in a girl dominated environment/activity. Tat parent probably fought against anything like baseball to participate in for extra curricular activities. If the kid wanted to play an instrument, the parent would push the flute on the kid before a Tuba, drums or anything considered "Manly". If you had this feeling before your child was born and then pulled this ****, I would berate you every which way I could do it.

Gotcha.

I guess I don't understand why people feel the need to push their agenda (whether it's boys should do boy things and girls should do girl things, or vice versa) on their kids. Let me make this simple for everyone to understand.

Your kids are your kids. THEY ARE NOT YOU. Stop trying to relive your high school sports dream of being the starting quarterback through your child. Stop trying to prove a point by pushing your kid into what is traditionally a sport for the opposite gender.

I'm not saying fathers shouldn't secretly wish their kid hits the game winning home run. I'm not saying mothers shouldn't want their daughters to have the same chances boys do. Why not, oh I dunno, TALK with your child and find out what THEY want? If my son wants to dance ballet or play the goddamn flute, I don't care, as long as that's what HE wants to do.

Children are not tools to push an agenda. People that do that **** not only make themselves look like jackasses, they open their children up to all kinds of torture. As I said and as chris said, kids are ruthless, cruel MEAN MFers and will search for absolutely ANYTHING to marginalize another child. If your child chooses to do something outside the norm, it's your responsibility as a parent to prepare them for the possible consequences, but children are not weapons in the war on gender roles. They should not be forced, coerced or otherwise steered into something that is not of their choosing just because the parents want to prove a point. Parents have an enormous influence on their children, and to even do much more than nudge a child in a direction (I'm talking about sports and extra-curriculars, etc here, not saying no to drugs) that is more suiting to the parent than the child is bordering on child abuse, in my opinion.

Miss I.
01-22-2012, 01:38 AM
Gawd I swear I was going to stop, but this ballet discussion is so hysterical. As a community we prescribe gender and define what is gender appropriate. That is not biologically defined. This moronic ballet debate illustrates that to a tee. Once upon a time in a generation only about 2 or 3 back from our own, boys took dance including ballet. Almost all actors and entertainers (like Gene Kelley, Fred Astaire, all the tough guy actors like Humphrey Bogart and James Cagney, hell even as recent as Patrick Swayze) took all sorts of dance classes, ballet included because it make them fully trained and capable in their field. All of those guys still pretty comfy in their "Masculinity" because dance wasn't made into some kind of gender bent thing. We've redefined ballet as feminine, but it is not, it's extremely athletic. It's actually neutral, but we've as a society determined that some sports are feminine and some are masculine.Some clothing items are feminine and some masculine, but that's defined by us, not by biology. Having a penis makes someone male. Being masculine is culturally defined. You joke about tutus and presumably men in tights, but if you look at it American football players essentially wear tights, spandex, etc, but it's okay in the context of American football and considered masculine and acceptable. But dudes who wear tights and dance, well that's feminine.

If the kid is in dance because he wants to be that's cool, if the parents are forcing it on him it's wrong, but not because of some asinine idea of what is masculine or feminine, but because forcing a kid into an activity they don't want to do is crap. I'd object to forcing a girl into dance if she didn't want it or a boy into football if he did not want it. Kids need activity to stay healthy, but forcing a parent's dream on a kid is crap too. But parents need to determine healthy boundaries too, kids don't get to determine everything. I mean the parents who say, well my daughter wants to participate in beauty pageants should pull their head out of their asses and say no. A 6 year old girl in a beauty pageant is just going to **** her up plus expose her to a really creepy segment of freaks.

Captain 'Dre
01-22-2012, 08:38 AM
Gawd I swear I was going to stop, but this ballet discussion is so hysterical. As a community we prescribe gender and define what is gender appropriate. That is not biologically defined. This moronic ballet debate illustrates that to a tee. Once upon a time in a generation only about 2 or 3 back from our own, boys took dance including ballet. Almost all actors and entertainers (like Gene Kelley, Fred Astaire, all the tough guy actors like Humphrey Bogart and James Cagney, hell even as recent as Patrick Swayze) took all sorts of dance classes, ballet included because it make them fully trained and capable in their field. All of those guys still pretty comfy in their "Masculinity" because dance wasn't made into some kind of gender bent thing. We've redefined ballet as feminine, but it is not, it's extremely athletic. It's actually neutral, but we've as a society determined that some sports are feminine and some are masculine.Some clothing items are feminine and some masculine, but that's defined by us, not by biology. Having a penis makes someone male. Being masculine is culturally defined. You joke about tutus and presumably men in tights, but if you look at it American football players essentially wear tights, spandex, etc, but it's okay in the context of American football and considered masculine and acceptable. But dudes who wear tights and dance, well that's feminine.

If the kid is in dance because he wants to be that's cool, if the parents are forcing it on him it's wrong, but not because of some asinine idea of what is masculine or feminine, but because forcing a kid into an activity they don't want to do is crap. I'd object to forcing a girl into dance if she didn't want it or a boy into football if he did not want it. Kids need activity to stay healthy, but forcing a parent's dream on a kid is crap too. But parents need to determine healthy boundaries too, kids don't get to determine everything. I mean the parents who say, well my daughter wants to participate in beauty pageants should pull their head out of their asses and say no. A 6 year old girl in a beauty pageant is just going to **** her up plus expose her to a really creepy segment of freaks.

To reinforce what you're saying, I recently read an article which explained that at the turn of the 20th Century-- aka 1900-- blue was considered "too feminine" a color to dress baby boys in, and that pink and yellow were the preferred colors for boys.

No color is inherently masculine or feminine. Cultures assign gender appropriateness to color, nature does not.

errand
01-22-2012, 09:41 AM
What we should be teaching children is that people are different for a whole variety of reasons and we want to build a culture, and a society, where people can get along regardless of our differences and that everybody is entitled to equal opportunity regardless of differences.

Teaching children that everybody is the same is just political correctness gone berserk.

Every child is unique....just like everyone is

errand
01-22-2012, 09:48 AM
okay, but what things are gender/sex determined? Some, if not most behavior is taught and constructed from a variety of sources. What I consider feminine behavior may not be the same as someone else's ideas.

You mean like why alot of female CEO's are leaving the rat race to become mothers?

errand
01-22-2012, 09:52 AM
I dont think gender is always associated with sex, if that makes any sense.

The two people raising their children have the right to raise their kids anyway they see fit. But in doing so, they have to realize at some point their children will come into contact with other children. Kids are cruel, sadistic, vindictive bastards. We all went through that. An example, there was a kid in my 5th grade class named Dusty Walls. I mean come on. In 3rd grade there was a kid that was called Chris C. Chris-see. Chrissy. These were too easy. Now if you have a son named Sasha wearing girl's blouses...well that kid is going to come home in tears more often than not.

:Broncos:

Well, here's hoping they give the kid two sets of lunch money so he can eat lunch after he gives the bully his cut.

errand
01-22-2012, 10:07 AM
Poor kid.

I agree...

I wonder why when people do this to a kid, there are those that say parents should be able to raise the kid anyway they see fit. OK, fine.....so if David Duke raises his kid his way, and lets his kid wear a hooded sheet to school, does he not have that same right? And what about the clowns that named their child Adolf Hitler whatever his last name is? Where do you draw the line between parental rights and doing what's best for the child?

What I think is happening is parents are trying prove their child is better, smarter, whatever than others under the guise of saying they don't want him/her to think that they're better

DarkHorse30
01-22-2012, 10:25 AM
Poor kid.

Agreed. Meanwhile this is a kickass thread - "Defining Gender roles". Awesome.

errand
01-22-2012, 10:40 AM
Gotta love all the posters in here calling kids "bastards" and "MFer's" being critical of how others raise their kids...things that make me go hmmmmmm.

ThirtyDegrees
01-22-2012, 10:52 AM
Better go tell all those Gay, Lesbian and Transgender people society made them that way! lolz!

Here's a hint, sexual orientation is not the same as gender.

broncocalijohn
01-22-2012, 12:11 PM
Here's a hint, sexual orientation is not the same as gender.

And I am sure that while those two parents of the boy will make sure that gay lifestyle is not a choice but you are born with those feelings, they will go the extra mile to have their boy hang out with gay children, gay parents, read about gay lifestyle, go to Gay Pride Parade....join ballet, etc. Instead of leading to a natural fit or choice for the boy, they think they are going "neutral" but in reality go to the extreme of the very alternative lifestyle for their kid. Exposure or not, those two are not neutral in any way.

Tombstone RJ
01-22-2012, 12:22 PM
So what do you think of this?? cluster**** of parenting.


It's a boy! (http://shine.yahoo.com/parenting/couple-finally-reveals-childs-gender-five-years-birth-180300388.html) And he's five. Beck Laxton, 46, and partner Kieran Cooper, 44, have spent half the decade concealing the gender of their son, Sasha.

"I wanted to avoid all that stereotyping," Laxton said in an interview with the Cambridge News. "Stereotypes seem fundamentally stupid. Why would you want to slot people into boxes?"

Take a look at the most controversial parenting stories of the year.

Laxton, a UK-based web editor, and her partner, Cooper, decided to keep Sasha's sex a secret when he was still in the womb. The birth announcement stated the gender-neutral name of their child, but skipped the big reveal. Up until recently, the couple only told a few close friends and family members that Sasha was a boy and managed to keep the rest of the world in the dark. But now that he's starting school the secret's out.


more on link

anyone who uses their child as a sociological experiment should be put in prison. Lets see where this kid is at in 15 more years...

errand
01-22-2012, 12:56 PM
anyone who uses their child as a sociological experiment should be put in prison. Lets see where this kid is at in 15 more years...
I watch TLC, and InvestgativeDiscovery.....and I'm pretty sure he'll end up as one of their stories...

jhns
01-23-2012, 07:40 AM
These people aren't just letting the kid do what he wants, they are trying to make him a girl. They don't allow boys clothes that are masculine. They do allow their son to wear pink girl swimsuits. That isn't being neutral and letting the kid find his own identity... These people are far too stupid to pull off an experiment like this.

alkemical
01-23-2012, 07:43 AM
anyone who uses their child as a sociological experiment should be put in prison. Lets see where this kid is at in 15 more years...

Freud?

:)

Garcia Bronco
01-23-2012, 08:48 AM
Sounds like two gender confused people raising a gender confused child.

Kaylore
01-23-2012, 08:53 AM
Here's a hint, sexual orientation is not the same as gender.

Here's a hint - see: Transgender.

You really can't read, can you?

broncocalijohn
01-23-2012, 10:37 AM
Here's a hint - see: Transgender.

You really can't read, can you?

Seems everytime I have watched something on transgender, they are still considered gay amd/or they still have the same gender partner. I have no clue what the % is but when I watch a dude become an ugly women, they are with another ugly transgender women. Probably hard to find a dude that would take in such funky looking shemale.

See, I didnt give a crap about hard facts. Just applying all of those transgenders to the few fugly ones I saw on tv. Best is the 50 and over ones that decide they have been in the wrong body their whole life. They are then the new old, which is still old but ugly.

Miss I.
01-23-2012, 10:49 AM
okay lemme break it down...

Sex - biology
Female - biological, has vagina
Male - biological, has penis (no matter the size).

Gender
Feminine - always right, glistens and smells like candy...sugar and spice and everything nice
Masculine - always wrong and sweaty and smelly, but useful for errands, something about puppy dog tails, which I don't get, but okay

There ya go, gender vs sex for dummies (aka men).

Just kidding, I am just tired of the debate and decided to go full smartass (which is different than full retard because you should never go there).

Rohirrim
01-23-2012, 11:07 AM
Or...

Sex (and assorted/connected behaviors) - Biology

Gender - Politics

;D

Orange_Beard
01-23-2012, 11:17 AM
Who cares.

errand
01-23-2012, 11:21 AM
What I don't get is the guys that try to become women....i mean you're an ugly guy..... what makes you'd be a good looking woman?

Jason in LA
01-23-2012, 01:26 PM
My 15 year old son scored 17 touchdowns this past season for his high school team, so I'm happy that I had him play with boy toys when he was a small child. When he grows up and shows up at work when he's feeling that he's a little under the weather, he can say that he showed up because when he was growing up he had some guy wearing a sweatsuit who didn't live up to his own athletic expectations, yelling at him and that the concept of a sick day didn't fly when it came to missing practice.

(I have no problem hiding behind the fact that my points of view are because I am a guy ;D)

All jokes aside, I think that gender roles are important, that's just how society is, and there is nothing wrong with that. In the long run, this kid might have issues fitting in, which could affect him long term in some very important ways.

One of my coworkers is a guy, and he is the youngest of six. All of his siblings before him are women. I'm not sure if his father was a large part of his life, but even if he was, this guy still grew up with mostly women.

When anybody first hears this guy talk they'll automatically think that he is gay. I've worked with him for a couple years, and he acts like a woman. People have called the office and when he speaks to them, they think they are talking to a woman. His way of thinking and his mannerisms are totally different from a normal guy, but they are more like a woman. It is really strange.

So I was always under the assumptions that they guy was gay. It never even crossed my mind that he wasn't. But we were having one conversation about a year into knowing each other and the topic of marriage came up. He expressed that one day he'll find the right woman and get married. That through me for a big loop.

So there are gay men who do not want to come out of the closet so they have girlfriends and get married to women and have children. At first I thought that was what he was doing. But then I got to thinking, what if the guy isn't gay. What if he acts like a woman simply because he grew up with a lot of women? I'm assuming that he did a lot of things that girls do when he grew up. So now that he's grown, he doesn't fit into the gender roles like normal people do. So if he really isn't gay, what woman is going to marry him? He never even talks about going on a date. I'd imagine most women think that he's gay, and it is interesting, when ever we have interns in the office, the female interns become friends with him very quickly. Seems like they view him as a girlfriend.

Back to the parents in this story. They should just let the boy be a boy. Cross dressing at school is not a good thing. Even if they feel that it is silly to put their child in one category, long term it is the logical thing to do. Well, if they want grand kids. ;D

bendog
01-23-2012, 01:46 PM
Holy Hunting Jesus. Down here if you don't dress a boy in fatigues and a camalfauge baseball cap by age 6 you've pretty much ruined any chance he as for fitting in.

Tombstone RJ
01-23-2012, 02:00 PM
Gawd I swear I was going to stop, but this ballet discussion is so hysterical. As a community we prescribe gender and define what is gender appropriate. That is not biologically defined. This moronic ballet debate illustrates that to a tee. Once upon a time in a generation only about 2 or 3 back from our own, boys took dance including ballet. Almost all actors and entertainers (like Gene Kelley, Fred Astaire, all the tough guy actors like Humphrey Bogart and James Cagney, hell even as recent as Patrick Swayze) took all sorts of dance classes, ballet included because it make them fully trained and capable in their field. All of those guys still pretty comfy in their "Masculinity" because dance wasn't made into some kind of gender bent thing. We've redefined ballet as feminine, but it is not, it's extremely athletic. It's actually neutral, but we've as a society determined that some sports are feminine and some are masculine.Some clothing items are feminine and some masculine, but that's defined by us, not by biology. Having a penis makes someone male. Being masculine is culturally defined. You joke about tutus and presumably men in tights, but if you look at it American football players essentially wear tights, spandex, etc, but it's okay in the context of American football and considered masculine and acceptable. But dudes who wear tights and dance, well that's feminine.

If the kid is in dance because he wants to be that's cool, if the parents are forcing it on him it's wrong, but not because of some asinine idea of what is masculine or feminine, but because forcing a kid into an activity they don't want to do is crap. I'd object to forcing a girl into dance if she didn't want it or a boy into football if he did not want it. Kids need activity to stay healthy, but forcing a parent's dream on a kid is crap too. But parents need to determine healthy boundaries too, kids don't get to determine everything. I mean the parents who say, well my daughter wants to participate in beauty pageants should pull their head out of their asses and say no. A 6 year old girl in a beauty pageant is just going to **** her up plus expose her to a really creepy segment of freaks.

I think you're way off on a tangent here. Plus, the women folk talk way to much and you are just re-inforcing that sterotype.

Thanks for the lecture Miss Gabby McGabberstein...

bendog
01-23-2012, 02:07 PM
speaking of stereotypes. LOL

However, I don't see how the lad is benefitted by allowing him to wear a dress without parental teaching of what western society sees as appropriate. But of course kids should be encouarged to do whatever sports/art stuff they want and their parents can provide. I mean barisnakov never lacked for female companionship.

Miss I.
01-23-2012, 02:15 PM
I think you're way off on a tangent here. Plus, the women folk talk way to much and you are just re-inforcing that sterotype.

Thanks for the lecture Miss Gabby McGabberstein...

And you are reinforcing which stereotype? that all men are ****ing illiterate morons? Oh no, that's just you, that's not a stereotype. I was responding to someone's discussion about boy's and dance. Yes I could've made it shorter, kind of like well the size of a penis that most men feel the need to compensate for.

alkemical
01-23-2012, 02:16 PM
All a gun does is focus an explosion in one direction. You have a class of young strong men and women, and they want to give their lives to something. Advertising has these people chasing cars and clothes they don't need. Generations have been working in jobs they hate, just so they can buy what they don't really need. ~Chuck Palahniuk, Fight Club, Chapter 19

bendog
01-23-2012, 02:18 PM
"all men are ****ing illiterate morons"

This was a question? And yes we'd rather be doing something violent or something with our penis at any given moment. (-:

Miss I.
01-23-2012, 02:19 PM
"all men are ****ing illiterate morons"

This was a question? And yes we'd rather be doing something violent or something with our penis at any given moment. (-:

honestly, I often wish guys would be doing something with their penis at pretty much any moment too. ;D

oh oops, sorry wrong thread. Thought this was the Jay's having a baby thread. ;D

Tombstone RJ
01-23-2012, 02:38 PM
And you are reinforcing which stereotype? that all men are ****ing illiterate morons? Oh no, that's just you, that's not a stereotype. I was responding to someone's discussion about boy's and dance. Yes I could've made it shorter, kind of like well the size of a penis that most men feel the need to compensate for.

:D

bendog
01-23-2012, 02:45 PM
What I really hate at the gym is that thing where you lay on your back and hold a medicine ball between your feet and see how long you can hold it up there. A couple of times a month I let the ball drop and the thing rolls back into Mobey and the Nimnaws. It's really ok if the thing only hurts me once without acting like a foul ball.

extralife
01-23-2012, 06:03 PM
I usually don't do this, but I'm just going to drop a link to describe how ridiculous, idiotic, and selfish this is

<a href="http://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2012/01/couple_reveals_childs_gender_f.html">http://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2012/01/couple_reveals_childs_gender_f.html</a>

you can thank me later

houghtam
01-23-2012, 06:10 PM
"all men are ****ing illiterate morons"

This was a question? And yes we'd rather be doing something violent or something with our penis at any given moment. (-:

Or something violent with our penis.

Captain 'Dre
01-24-2012, 05:28 PM
Thanks for the lecture Miss Gabby McGabberstein...

Signed,

Judgy McJudgerson :yayaya:

Dedhed
01-24-2012, 05:40 PM
What I want to know is...

Has the kid been told he's a boy? Or are the parents keeping it a secret from him, also?

Has the kid had it explained to him that there are two different genders? Or is he being raised to believe that there is no such thing as gender?

If the parents are withholding basic information, then they're just keeping their kid ignorant and virtually guaranteeing future problems.
This I agree with. I don't see an issue with the parents letting the kid wear a dress because he chooses to if he's got a clue as to basic biological associations.

However, if they're manipulating his education in a way that fosters ignorance they're doing far more damage than subjecting him to stereotypes would.

extralife
01-24-2012, 06:00 PM
I think you're way off on a tangent here. Plus, the women folk talk way to much and you are just re-inforcing that sterotype.

Thanks for the lecture Miss Gabby McGabberstein...

this is probably the dumbest post I've ever seen on the orange mane, and gasping at retardation is pretty much the main reason I'm here.

Tombstone RJ
01-24-2012, 06:03 PM
this is probably the dumbest post I've ever seen on the orange mane, and gasping at retardation is pretty much the main reason I'm here.

I'm always happy to disappoint you. :kiss: