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View Full Version : Serious competition for Tebow - where?


mwill07
01-20-2012, 10:17 AM
For the sake of this thread, let's pretend that EFX wants to bring someone in to replace Tebow. someone good enough that the team and fans will support Tebow being benched. Who is that guy?

Here are some FA QB's available, with my comments.


Peyton Manning. I'm assuming he is released due to a huge bonus due in March. Will Manning be healthy, or will he hang 'em up? Even if we were to sign him, there would be no guarantee that we won't spend 2012 on IR.
Matt Flynn. IMO, he is the cream of the crop FA. There will be a bidding war with the other QB defficient teams - Miami, Washington, Cleveland, Jacksonville, KC, Seahawks, Cardinals, Jets, etc.
Jason Campbell. Careeer 60% completion rate, TD to int rate seems to be pretty high. NFL average at best. IMO fans would not consider Campbell as being better than Orton
==================================
Josh Johnson. Don't know much about this guy. Would be a tough sell.
Brian Hoyer. We've seen enough of Patriot rejects. Matt Cassel II?
Kyle Orton. We already know how this story goes.
Shaun Hill. Quality back-up QB, assuming he has Calvin Johnson to throw to.
Dennis Dixon. Skillset would mirror Tebow very well, IMO. I would endorse Dixon as a back-up, but can't see him beating out Tebow.
Rex Grossman. Doesn't take care of the ball well enough.
Chad Henne. Needs to sit on the bench for a while and refine skills.
Josh McCown. bleh.
Donovan McNabb. I think could be a great mentor/back-up if he wants to be...and that's what he will need to be to stay in the NFL.
Vince Young. See Dennis Dixon above.
(note: I'm assuming Brees and Alex Smith are locked up and won't be allowed to hit the market.)

So the guys above the line are the only ones I think that could actually beat Tebow out in training camp, and Campbell is debatable. Some of the other guys might be able to push him, but IMO don't have the skill-set. They aren't such great throwers that they could overcome Tebow's other skills.

There may be others that become available...Matt Hasselbeck, Mark Sanchez..

EFX could draft a QB. Luck, I think, is out of the question. No way will the Colts let him go. Beyond Luck, I don't know of any other QB's where it would be a no-brainer that they start day 1 ahead of Tebow. RGIII maybe, but he will be to expensive for a team drafting 25th to trade up; I think he will go second.

The only other way they can find a startable QB is by trade, which by definition would weaken the team somewhere else. I don't think that's appropriate for a team in year 2 of a 3 year rebuilding process to do.

Really, the only one that has the gravitas to keep the Tebowites at bay is Manning. It would be really tough for anyone to argue that Tebow should be starting ahead of Peyton Manning.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that there is a very small list of QB's that could justifiably put Tebow on the bench, and there will be a massive bidding war for those guys. I don't think that's something we can afford to get into at this point.

I don't believe EFX will realistically be able to bring in serious competition for Tebow, even if they wanted to.

BroncoInferno
01-20-2012, 10:20 AM
The guy I want us to bring in as a backup is Shaun Hill. I think he is underrated. He's done a solid job for San Fran and Detroit in the past. Is he a guy you can ride to a championship? No. But if Tebow gets hurt or implodes, I'd feel comfortable with him stepping in.

mwill07
01-20-2012, 10:22 AM
The guy I want us to bring in as a backup is Shaun Hill. I think he is underrated. He's done a solid job for San Fran and Detroit in the past. Is he a guy you can ride to a championship? No. But if Tebow gets hurt or implodes, I'd feel comfortable with him stepping in.

that's fine, but do you think he could realisticly push Tebow for the starting spot?

There's a lot of guys out there I'd be comfortable with as back-ups. What I'm trying to demonstrate is that realisticly, Tebow will not face serious competition in TC.

Ray Finkle
01-20-2012, 10:26 AM
out of that list, I could see Johnson brought in. He has a similiar skill set as Tebow. If you want a dynamic change, you draft a QB in the mid rounds instead of grabbing a retread.

Shaun Hill needs to play for a dome team. He's got an average/sub average arm.

Pony Boy
01-20-2012, 10:27 AM
If Peyton Manning is released he will be a Jet, a deal may already be in the works so you might add Mark Sanchez to your list.

The thought of Mark Sanchez in a Bronco's uniform makes me want to puke .....

mwill07
01-20-2012, 10:29 AM
If Peyton Manning is released he will be a Jet, a deal may already be in the works so you might add Mark Sanchez to your list.

The thought of Mark Sanchez in a Bronco's uniform makes me want to puke .....

good call on both parts. I'm not convinced Sanchez is better than Brady Quinn.

KO5K
01-20-2012, 10:30 AM
If EFX wanted to replace Tebow they could easily draft a guy in the second/third round and then hold a "competition" in camp to decide the starter.

Tebow doesn't really have a hope in hell of "beating" a pure passer in training camp regardless of whether it's a third round rookie or a veteran free agent. It would just be like Orton last year.

So yes, EFX could easily find someone to "beat" out Tebow in training camp.

mwill07
01-20-2012, 10:30 AM
out of that list, I could see Johnson brought in. He has a similiar skill set as Tebow. If you want a dynamic change, you draft a QB in the mid rounds instead of grabbing a retread.

Shaun Hill needs to play for a dome team. He's got an average/sub average arm.

no QB drafted outside of the first round will be able to push Tebow to the bench. No way.

I'm all for drafting a mid to late round QB, but that's for depth, not for a serious challenge for the starting spot.

Lestat
01-20-2012, 10:30 AM
Jason Campbell is in the top 3. that tells me everything i need to know in terms of the QB FA crop.
in the draft or via trade is where the Broncos would likely find a guy to push Tebow.
FA would probably be for a guy who can mentor Tebow and help him refine his game.

BigPlayShay
01-20-2012, 10:34 AM
Garrard?

mwill07
01-20-2012, 10:34 AM
If EFX wanted to replace Tebow they could easily draft a guy in the second/third round and then hold a "competition" in camp to decide the starter.

Tebow doesn't really have a hope in hell of "beating" a pure passer in training camp regardless of whether it's a third round rookie or a veteran free agent. It would just be like Orton last year.

So yes, EFX could easily find someone to "beat" out Tebow in training camp.

that's the thing though - it would be exactly like Orton last year. The coaching staff knows, it, the team knows it, and the fans know it, and we all know how that story ended.

Ray Finkle
01-20-2012, 10:35 AM
no QB drafted outside of the first round will be able to push Tebow to the bench. No way.

I'm all for drafting a mid to late round QB, but that's for depth, not for a serious challenge for the starting spot.

The drafting QB was for the future, not next year. Drafting a QB mid round and expecting him to push to start isn't likely. However, they draft a pure drop back passer, it will indicate where the offense is heading.

Goobzilla
01-20-2012, 10:36 AM
Matt Flynn is Scott Mitchell/Matt Cassell 2.0 to me. Guy will make bank based on a limited sample size. Except for Captain Forehead and his mega salary I don't see anyone that I would take over Tebow on that list. Besides Rob Lowe told me Manning is retiring :-)

Pony Boy
01-20-2012, 10:38 AM
good call on both parts. I'm not convinced Sanchez is better than Brady Quinn.

Yes the thought of two Mannings in New York playing in the same statium is a wet dream for the sports media. It might give them something to cover besides Tebow, the talking heads at ESPN would explode.

BroncoBeavis
01-20-2012, 10:38 AM
Any camp competition would be 1, meaningless. Fox (rightfully) wouldn't have the nuts to pull Tebow going into next season, even if he wanted to. They played the 'camp competition' card last year and it backfired on them badly.

And 2. A distraction from what the team needs to be working on, which is getting better as an offensive whole.

Denver will bring in other QB's and save Peyton Manning being one of them (which makes no sense for Peyton) none of them would be given the chance to replace Tebow. The NFL is still a business.

oubronco
01-20-2012, 10:38 AM
I believe they like Weber more than poeple think

KO5K
01-20-2012, 10:43 AM
that's the thing though - it would be exactly like Orton last year. The coaching staff knows, it, the team knows it, and the fans know it, and we all know how that story ended.

But if EFX have already decided that Tebow isn't the guy, then they might as well start the rookie.

If the "competition" went down like last year (ie, Tebow was "out performed") then it would be difficult for the fans to complain to much despite what has gone on the last few years. When the rookie struggles, like all rookies do, EFX can just claim he's a rookie and he will get better with experience.

razorwire77
01-20-2012, 10:50 AM
For the sake of this thread, let's pretend that EFX wants to bring someone in to replace Tebow. someone good enough that the team and fans will support Tebow being benched. Who is that guy?

Here are some FA QB's available, with my comments.


Peyton Manning. I'm assuming he is released due to a huge bonus due in March. Will Manning be healthy, or will he hang 'em up? Even if we were to sign him, there would be no guarantee that we won't spend 2012 on IR.
Matt Flynn. IMO, he is the cream of the crop FA. There will be a bidding war with the other QB defficient teams - Miami, Washington, Cleveland, Jacksonville, KC, Seahawks, Cardinals, Jets, etc.
Jason Campbell. Careeer 60% completion rate, TD to int rate seems to be pretty high. NFL average at best. IMO fans would not consider Campbell as being better than Orton
==================================
Josh Johnson. Don't know much about this guy. Would be a tough sell.
Brian Hoyer. We've seen enough of Patriot rejects. Matt Cassel II?
Kyle Orton. We already know how this story goes.
Shaun Hill. Quality back-up QB, assuming he has Calvin Johnson to throw to.
Dennis Dixon. Skillset would mirror Tebow very well, IMO. I would endorse Dixon as a back-up, but can't see him beating out Tebow.
Rex Grossman. Doesn't take care of the ball well enough.
Chad Henne. Needs to sit on the bench for a while and refine skills.
Josh McCown. bleh.
Donovan McNabb. I think could be a great mentor/back-up if he wants to be...and that's what he will need to be to stay in the NFL.
Vince Young. See Dennis Dixon above.
(note: I'm assuming Brees and Alex Smith are locked up and won't be allowed to hit the market.)

So the guys above the line are the only ones I think that could actually beat Tebow out in training camp, and Campbell is debatable. Some of the other guys might be able to push him, but IMO don't have the skill-set. They aren't such great throwers that they could overcome Tebow's other skills.

There may be others that become available...Matt Hasselbeck, Mark Sanchez..

EFX could draft a QB. Luck, I think, is out of the question. No way will the Colts let him go. Beyond Luck, I don't know of any other QB's where it would be a no-brainer that they start day 1 ahead of Tebow. RGIII maybe, but he will be to expensive for a team drafting 25th to trade up; I think he will go second.

The only other way they can find a startable QB is by trade, which by definition would weaken the team somewhere else. I don't think that's appropriate for a team in year 2 of a 3 year rebuilding process to do.

Really, the only one that has the gravitas to keep the Tebowites at bay is Manning. It would be really tough for anyone to argue that Tebow should be starting ahead of Peyton Manning.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that there is a very small list of QB's that could justifiably put Tebow on the bench, and there will be a massive bidding war for those guys. I don't think that's something we can afford to get into at this point.

I don't believe EFX will realistically be able to bring in serious competition for Tebow, even if they wanted to.

That's a pretty accurate list of what's out there. Elway and company aren't going to invest Manning or Flynn type cash (nor should they.) After that, you have to ask yourself how much better are Hoyer, or Grossman, or Chad Henne than Brady Quinn. At this point, I'd be fine with re-signing Quinn as a backup who is already familiar with a system, bringing Webber through ota's and camp and maybe taking a flyer on a QB in the later rounds.

Agamemnon
01-20-2012, 10:52 AM
If EFX wanted to replace Tebow they could easily draft a guy in the second/third round and then hold a "competition" in camp to decide the starter.

Tebow doesn't really have a hope in hell of "beating" a pure passer in training camp regardless of whether it's a third round rookie or a veteran free agent. It would just be like Orton last year.

So yes, EFX could easily find someone to "beat" out Tebow in training camp.

Absolutely ridiculous statement.

I swear some of you morons have no idea what the problems with our passing game were, or that the majority of them were the result of things outside of Tebow.

KO5K
01-20-2012, 10:59 AM
Absolutely ridiculous statement.

I swear some of you morons have no idea what the problems with our passing game were, or that the majority of them were the result of things outside of Tebow.

That post went straight over your head.

No surprise there.

edog24
01-20-2012, 11:03 AM
I don't think the logic is right here. IMO they need to bring in someone that would be interchangeable with our offense.

Tebow is going to get hurt, all QBs do, and Tebow is even more prone to this because of the hits he takes. I think this has to do with depth for the team more than "competition."

I would think we need to go with a similar skillset to Tebow, maybe pick up Pryor from the faid or VY? Serious character issues here but maybe Tebow could reform them?

BroncoBeavis
01-20-2012, 11:07 AM
If the "competition" went down like last year (ie, Tebow was "out performed") then it would be difficult for the fans to complain to much despite what has gone on the last few years. When the rookie struggles, like all rookies do, EFX can just claim he's a rookie and he will get better with experience.

Wow, that's pretty naive.

As has been said before. If team Fox banks the team's future on a "Camp Champ" practice QB again like they did last year, they'd better make the playoffs like Timmy did, or their tenure in Denver is done.

They're smarter than that. Won't happen.

DarkHorse30
01-20-2012, 11:14 AM
Defense Defense Defense. I agree with KO5K - draft a kid in the 3rd round and coach him up to be a backup. Run with Tebow, it will be fun and he will learn how to win more. Meanwhile, Mark Shlereth can try to find some other rookie to cry about.

KO5K
01-20-2012, 11:14 AM
Wow, that's pretty naive.

As has been said before. If team Fox banks the team's future on a "Camp Champ" practice QB again like they did last year, they'd better make the playoffs like Timmy did, or their tenure in Denver is done.

They're smarter than that. Won't happen.

There's a big difference between Orton not performing and EFX's rookie not performing.

EFX just won a playoff game after using the second pick in the draft last year, they're here for a while whether the fans like it or not.

mwill07
01-20-2012, 11:17 AM
I don't think the logic is right here. IMO they need to bring in someone that would be interchangeable with our offense.

Tebow is going to get hurt, all QBs do, and Tebow is even more prone to this because of the hits he takes. I think this has to do with depth for the team more than "competition."

I would think we need to go with a similar skillset to Tebow, maybe pick up Pryor from the faid or VY? Serious character issues here but maybe Tebow could reform them?

I don't know if I agree with this. Tebow and his specialized skillset was a big part of the 2011 offense, but there was plenty of stuff we did that wasn't option based. what was it...maybe 10% of the offensive playcalls were option?

no, we did plenty from the I formation, and a fair amount of throwing from the shotgun. Moving forward, I think we will be less dependant on the running-QB stuff.

The bronco offense could exist with a traditional pocket QB I think; I'd rather see that in a back-up QB vs a watered down version of Tebow. At least if a pocket-passer QB came in, a good chunk of opposition's game plan goes out the window, and that's got to count for something.

Smiling Assassin27
01-20-2012, 11:18 AM
dixon seems like a potentially good fit. maybe the bills cut brad smith after that large deal they gave him. what's michael bishop doing these days? ;)

oubronco
01-20-2012, 11:33 AM
Absolutely ridiculous statement.

I swear some of you morons have no idea what the problems with our passing game were, or that the majority of them were the result of things outside of Tebow.

Let me guess everybody but Tebow right

BroncoBeavis
01-20-2012, 11:35 AM
EFX just won a playoff game after using the second pick in the draft last year, they're here for a while whether the fans like it or not.

Mindboggling. Absolutely mindboggling.

EFX is safe because of the playoff win over the Steelers.

The guy who scored 3TD's, threw for 316 in 22 attempts and rushed for 50 yards to win that game? His job is anyone's to win.

Doesn't get any crazier than that.

HAT
01-20-2012, 11:48 AM
Josh Johnson

KO5K
01-20-2012, 11:48 AM
Mindboggling. Absolutely mindboggling.

EFX is safe because of the playoff win over the Steelers.

The guy who scored 3TD's, threw for 316 in 22 attempts and rushed for 50 yards to win that game? His job is anyone's to win.

Doesn't get any crazier than that.

Yes, EFX is safe.

And they can do what they want in regards to the QB position and they can run a "competition" in training camp and their guy will "beat" Tebow out, just like last year.

BroncoBeavis
01-20-2012, 12:03 PM
Yes, EFX is safe.

And they can do what they want in regards to the QB position and they can run a "competition" in training camp and their guy will "beat" Tebow out, just like last year.

The avatar bet still stands. I'll open it up to anyone. :)

Agamemnon
01-20-2012, 02:31 PM
That post went straight over your head.

No surprise there.

Not at all. You seem to think any mid-round pocket QB is going to outplay Tebow in camp as a rookie. Thus you are a retard. It's pretty simple really.

BroncoBeavis
01-20-2012, 02:37 PM
Not at all. You seem to think any mid-round pocket QB is going to outplay Tebow in camp as a rookie. Thus you are a retard. It's pretty simple really.

You could draft a midround QB and have him not beat out Weber. I'd rather take a nearly-washed-up old vet than have 3 kid QB's on the roster with nobody to learn anything from.

peacepipe
01-20-2012, 02:48 PM
Any camp competition would be 1, meaningless. Fox (rightfully) wouldn't have the nuts to pull Tebow going into next season, even if he wanted to. They played the 'camp competition' card last year and it backfired on them badly.

And 2. A distraction from what the team needs to be working on, which is getting better as an offensive whole.

Denver will bring in other QB's and save Peyton Manning being one of them (which makes no sense for Peyton) none of them would be given the chance to replace Tebow. The NFL is still a business.

maybe so,but a popularity contest for starter is a ****ty business model.

Mile High Mojoe
01-20-2012, 02:53 PM
Matt Flynn is Scott Mitchell/Matt Cassell 2.0 to me. Guy will make bank based on a limited sample size. Except for Captain Forehead and his mega salary I don't see anyone that I would take over Tebow on that list. Besides Rob Lowe told me Manning is retiring :-)

This...:strong:

snowspot66
01-20-2012, 03:49 PM
But if EFX have already decided that Tebow isn't the guy, then they might as well start the rookie.

If the "competition" went down like last year (ie, Tebow was "out performed") then it would be difficult for the fans to complain to much despite what has gone on the last few years. When the rookie struggles, like all rookies do, EFX can just claim he's a rookie and he will get better with experience.

What?

Turd_Ferguson
01-20-2012, 03:51 PM
This...:strong:

Mojoe! Glad you are here we need a fantasy run down on all available QBs STAT!

KO5K
01-20-2012, 03:59 PM
What?

If somebody looked better in training camp than Tebow (like Orton did last year) it would be difficult for the fans to complain if Tebow wasn't the starter.

KO5K
01-20-2012, 04:00 PM
Not at all. You seem to think any mid-round pocket QB is going to outplay Tebow in camp as a rookie. Thus you are a retard. It's pretty simple really.

EFX could hold an "open competition" in which Tebow is "beaten" out by a mid-round pure passing QB.

Take note of the "".

BroncoBeavis
01-20-2012, 04:06 PM
If somebody looked better in training camp than Tebow (like Orton did last year) it would be difficult for the fans to complain if Tebow wasn't the starter.

Did you miss the whole billboard thing, and pretty much every OM discussion through early October? Are you feeling ok?

ScottXray
01-20-2012, 04:08 PM
I think that the Broncos like Adam Weber a lot more than most here think ( So do I). I actually think he will be the number 2 after Preseason and some cahnces to show something.

As far as a vet in case Tebow goes down hurt...Vince Young has the closest skill set, but he is not going to be happy to sit behind Tebow. In fact this might be a locker room cancer waiting to get malignant if Tebow doesn't improve his short game, but keeps getting starts.

Hardly any QB in the NFL is happy to be a backup, as the position demands that you have the drive to want to start. Too many QBs think, like ESPN, that you have to fit the mold of a pure pocket passer or will fail in htis league (maybe they are right, but we have an experiment on-going here)

More than likely we will keep Weber and Quinn and not waste a pick on a late round QB unless someone falls a lot. Moore from Boise State in the 5th or 6th?

KO5K
01-20-2012, 04:12 PM
Did you miss the whole billboard thing, and pretty much every OM discussion through early October? Are you feeling ok?

The billboard came after the season began and we were what, 0-3?

Go back and look, every expert, analyst, beat writer and camp reporter noted how much better Orton looked in the "competition" than Tebow did.

If Fox hadn't started Orton, everyone around the league would've been questioning him and so would his team. Go back and look at Colquitt's quote, the team was behind Orton.

If something similar goes down this year, where another QB "beats" out Tebow in an "open competition" then EFX will start that QB and people don't have much ground to complain about it.

Again, take note of the "".

DarkHorse
01-20-2012, 05:46 PM
I honestly feel that Adam Weber may give Tebow some problems in camp, I gotta feeling about the guy. He needs a shot in pre-season.

Would rather stick to building the defense, Weber is already on the team so we won't waste money or a mid level pick. That's the biggest reason I like Weber: Young and already on the roster. Now coach him up :)

gunns
01-20-2012, 06:01 PM
The drafting QB was for the future, not next year. Drafting a QB mid round and expecting him to push to start isn't likely. However, they draft a pure drop back passer, it will indicate where the offense is heading.

Exactly. Regardless of the naysayers I don't believe EFX are looking at next year as far as a new QB starting. I think they are going to give Tebow the off season and the season to truly show what he has. If he implodes the other QB will be waiting in the wings for the following year or possibly some starting time at the end of the year.

Agamemnon
01-20-2012, 10:03 PM
EFX could hold an "open competition" in which Tebow is "beaten" out by a mid-round pure passing QB.

Take note of the "".

So you are saying they could do something that wouldn't benefit them or the team in any way just cuz? Okay, that makes so much more sense... ::)

Missouribronc
01-20-2012, 10:11 PM
I find it fully plausible that if an open competition was held in camp for the quarterback position with a player not on the roster now, that Tebow might lose.

From a passing standpoint he's dreadfully bad.

TheReverend
01-20-2012, 10:24 PM
I honestly feel that Adam Weber may give Tebow some problems in camp, I gotta feeling about the guy.

Oh Jesus

Drek
01-21-2012, 03:26 AM
David Garrard is your answer, FYI.

coming back from injury, didn't play last year, and he's 33 but when healthy he's athletic enough to run some option and has been a proven starter for a while in the NFL.

If he's ok with a backup/mentor role he'd be the ideal candidate to backup Tebow.

To build on the system we're putting in place for Tebow we should then take Ryan Tannehill in the 3rd round. He's got a similar skill set and needs a lot of the same coaching Tebow does, so the "book" on how to coach up one could be used on the other. Then we have a young athletic QB as the starter, a veteran who can run the offense without changing things up at #2, and a young athletic #3 who can long term develop into a good #2 or even challenge the #1 without us having to flush the unique wrinkles you'd build for a Tebow led offense.

And yes, I know many are currently claiming Tannehill is a late 1st to mid-2nd range prospect. But the guy just broke his foot, won't be at the senior bowl, and very possibly misses the combine. Add that on tape people will see many of the same issues Tebow without nearly the track record of success. All in all you've got a recipe for him taking a slide and Nick Foles climbing past him. This following a draft with a lot of 1st rounders taken, in a draft with two clear cut #1's, and a guarantee that Matt Flynn takes over a starting job somewhere. Only so many teams willing to invest in a QB early left out there when it's all said and done.

Miss I.
01-21-2012, 06:33 AM
hey you think Brett Favre would unretire again...tee hee...sorry, I am having an evil streak today....

elsid13
01-21-2012, 06:58 AM
David Garrard is your answer, FYI.

coming back from injury, didn't play last year, and he's 33 but when healthy he's athletic enough to run some option and has been a proven starter for a while in the NFL.

If he's ok with a backup/mentor role he'd be the ideal candidate to backup Tebow.

To build on the system we're putting in place for Tebow we should then take Ryan Tannehill in the 3rd round. He's got a similar skill set and needs a lot of the same coaching Tebow does, so the "book" on how to coach up one could be used on the other. Then we have a young athletic QB as the starter, a veteran who can run the offense without changing things up at #2, and a young athletic #3 who can long term develop into a good #2 or even challenge the #1 without us having to flush the unique wrinkles you'd build for a Tebow led offense.

And yes, I know many are currently claiming Tannehill is a late 1st to mid-2nd range prospect. But the guy just broke his foot, won't be at the senior bowl, and very possibly misses the combine. Add that on tape people will see many of the same issues Tebow without nearly the track record of success. All in all you've got a recipe for him taking a slide and Nick Foles climbing past him. This following a draft with a lot of 1st rounders taken, in a draft with two clear cut #1's, and a guarantee that Matt Flynn takes over a starting job somewhere. Only so many teams willing to invest in a QB early left out there when it's all said and done.


I am wonder what similar problem you see between the two? Because I don't believe they have similar challenges. And even hurt Tennehill is high second at worse and I can see Shanahan trading back into the first to get him. Because he fits his style of QBs.

mwill07
01-21-2012, 08:10 AM
I find it fully plausible that if an open competition was held in camp for the quarterback position with a player not on the roster now, that Tebow might lose.

From a passing standpoint he's dreadfully bad.
This is true, but I think it's also obvious that there is more to QB'ing than throwing the ball. That is what will make the camp really interesting.

mwill07
01-21-2012, 08:25 AM
So here's my point of view:

We know Tebow > Orton. Any QB we bring in to expect to beat out Tebow must therefore be > Orton as well. That's the threshhold we are looking here.

DarkHorse
01-21-2012, 09:22 AM
Oh Jesus

C'mon Rev - tell us your opinion on the thread topic Hilarious!

Dedhed
01-21-2012, 09:44 AM
Matt Flynn is Scott Mitchell/Matt Cassell 2.0 to me. Guy will make bank based on a limited sample size. Except for Captain Forehead and his mega salary I don't see anyone that I would take over Tebow on that list. Besides Rob Lowe told me Manning is retiring :-)

I agree completely. He's next year's Kevin Kolb, and I called Kolb as the 2nd biggest flop of 2011 in August of last year. My #1 flop call was the Eagles. I'm batting 1000. Add in my Orton call, and I should be working in Vegas.

Next year Flynn is definitely on the radar as a top flop. Although I think he'll outperform Kolb, he's played his best game as a pro and it was perfect timing as far as his paycheck is concerned.

I don't see the rationale behind spending a mid round pick on a QB. There are more than enough needs elsewhere that are far bigger concerns. It would be silly to me to put those needs aside simply for the sake of getting Tebow some competition.

It's Tebow's team in 2012. Period. I know there are a lot of folks in denial about that, but it's the truth. He's earned it.

If he doesn't get better you look to the 2013 draft class that has been much improved because of Barkley and Jones staying in school.

HAT
01-21-2012, 09:51 AM
And even hurt Tennehill is high second at worse and I can see Shanahan trading back into the first to get him. Because he fits his style of QBs.

Cincy coming up to #6 for Trent, Shanny grabs RT at #17. Book it.

Agamemnon
01-21-2012, 09:51 AM
I find it fully plausible that if an open competition was held in camp for the quarterback position with a player not on the roster now, that Tebow might lose.

From a passing standpoint he's dreadfully bad.

From a passing standpoint he had the deck stacked against him all season (no 1st team reps until well into the season, receivers with no thumbs, poor protection, poor scheming and playcalling, and a bad system fit for his skill set). You and many others on this board really are over-simplifying Tebow's passing issues.

HAT
01-21-2012, 09:56 AM
From a passing standpoint he had the deck stacked against him all season (no 1st team reps until well into the season, receivers with no thumbs, poor protection, poor scheming and playcalling, and a bad system fit for his skill set). You and many others on this board really are over-simplifying Tebow's passing issues.

Yup...That's what's gonna make it easy for Fox to bench him if mystery QB beats him out. Tebow loses all of those excuses this time around.

Agamemnon
01-21-2012, 10:00 AM
Yup...That's what's gonna make it easy for Fox to bench him if mystery QB beats him out. Tebow loses all of those excuses this time around.

I don't think all those things are going to get fixed, but yes next season is the season where he needs to show conclusively that he can pass well on a consistent basis. No question.

That said, if we don't start implementing spread formations and 1st down passing in our offense, we might as well just trade him now, because that's not a good way to develop a QB with his background.

Drek
01-21-2012, 10:33 AM
I am wonder what similar problem you see between the two? Because I don't believe they have similar challenges. And even hurt Tennehill is high second at worse and I can see Shanahan trading back into the first to get him. Because he fits his style of QBs.

Elongated, technically unsound throwing motions.

Needs a lot of work reading NFL level defenses.

Very inconsistent on his accuracy.

Reads a LOT like Tebow. Just without nearly the accomplishments, snaps behind center, etc.. He is more of a project than Tebow and yet everyone said Tebow should have been a 2nd or 3rd rounder.

The top tier QB/QBOTF types that will be in play this off-season will be Manning (the legit QB), Flynn (most ready but lowest pedigree QBOTF), Luck, and RG3.

Now the QB needy teams are the following (in order of draft pick):
Indy
Washington
Miami
Seattle

I define QB needy as a team that isn't already committed to a QB on their roster in terms of pick value/money invested. Jacksonville, Minnesota, etc. might need QBs but they just took first rounders last year, they aren't taking another already.

Manning was also the oldest incumbent, next on the list would probably be Tom Brady and the Pats have Mallet. Then Brees, following by Rapistburger and Vick. Not guys with a high "draft the future behind them" factor going on right now. So most of the NFL will be looking at the Jason Campbells and Kyle Ortons of the world to secure themselves a solid #2 vet behind their young QBOTF or their established guy in case they lose the starter in a playoff run.

That means 4 needy teams, 4 top tier guys. Who is suddenly going to pop and use a 1st or 2nd on a kid they can't see throw until after the combine?

My personal hunch is that the QB carousel shakes out as follows:
Indy takes Luck, releases Manning before the $28M due in March.
Washington drafts RG3.
The Jets sign Manning, trade Sanchez to Seattle for a 2nd or 3rd and a conditional 2013 pick, reuniting Carrol and Sanchez.

Foles and Osweiler could both make big moves up the board with Tannehill sidelined and leapfrog him for teams that want more of a traditional pocket passing offense.

HAT
01-21-2012, 10:50 AM
My personal hunch is that the QB carousel shakes out as follows:
Indy takes Luck, releases Manning before the $28M due in March.
Washington drafts RG3.
The Jets sign Manning, trade Sanchez to Seattle for a 2nd or 3rd and a conditional 2013 pick, reuniting Carrol and Sanchez.


Plausible if you think Manning is ever going to play another snap in this league....

I don't so I'm going with:

Indy takes Luck #1
Clev takes RGIII #2
'Skins take Tannenhill with Cincy's #17 or #21
'Hawks take a Pac-12 QB #44

Agamemnon
01-21-2012, 11:08 AM
Plausible if you think Manning is ever going to play another snap in this league....

I don't so I'm going with:

Indy takes Luck #1
Clev takes RGIII #2
'Skins take Tannenhill with Cincy's #17 or #21
'Hawks take a Pac-12 QB #44

By "a Pac-12 QB" do you mean Nick Foles? Can't think of any other Pac-12 QB going that high.

elsid13
01-21-2012, 11:30 AM
Elongated, technically unsound throwing motions.

Needs a lot of work reading NFL level defenses.

Very inconsistent on his accuracy.

Reads a LOT like Tebow. Just without nearly the accomplishments, snaps behind center, etc.. He is more of a project than Tebow and yet everyone said Tebow should have been a 2nd or 3rd rounder.



I don't know where you are getting the elongated unsound throwing motion, because watching him play I never seen it. And National Football Post Scouting Section doesn't mention it either (http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/college_player_scouting_report.html&player=33154).

And he spent a lot of time under center and comes from pro style offense.

errand
01-21-2012, 11:52 AM
From a passing standpoint he had the deck stacked against him all season (no 1st team reps until well into the season, receivers with no thumbs, poor protection, poor scheming and playcalling, and a bad system fit for his skill set). You and many others on this board really are over-simplifying Tebow's passing issues.

So enlighten us...we know that everyone else remotely involved in the passing game gets your lion's share of the blame....

What does tim need to do to improve his passing, because it seems to me that you think he'd be all world if he were on any team but this one....

Does he just need to go to another team to showcase his talent?

errand
01-21-2012, 11:57 AM
I don't think all those things are going to get fixed, but yes next season is the season where he needs to show conclusively that he can pass well on a consistent basis. No question.

That said, if we don't start implementing spread formations and 1st down passing in our offense, we might as well just trade him now, because that's not a good way to develop a QB with his background.

Wow...so the team needs to adapt to Tebow...he doesn't have to adapt to the team....got it.

I recall Tony Sacca coming outta Penn State way back when...he was pretty good in college but struggled throwing in the NFL...his excuse was the difference in the balls...to which his coach told him, "Well son, you're gonna have to throw the NFL's ball...cuz it's the one we use at this level"

Point being throwing from the pocket is throwing from the pocket...doesn't matter what offense you run...he's not been very successful doing it far...hopefully he'll learn how

Agamemnon
01-21-2012, 12:08 PM
So enlighten us...we know that everyone else remotely involved in the passing game gets your lion's share of the blame....

What does tim need to do to improve his passing, because it seems to me that you think he'd be all world if he were on any team but this one....

Does he just need to go to another team to showcase his talent?

Hardly. He needs to work on his footwork. He needs to work on shifting his mentality regarding whether a player is open or not so that he's no longer expecting players to get wide open every play. He needs to work on delivering passes to a spot rather to a player. He needs to stop worrying so much about interceptions that it keeps him from attacking and trying to make a play. He needs to get better at checking down to his RB or TE when his WR's are covered.

But at the same time, this coaching staff needs to get their heads out of their asses and realize that a spread option QB from college isn't being put in the best situations to throw with two recover sets. They need to realize that only letting him throw on 3rd down occasionally through most of a game isn't helping his development, is actually setting him up for failure, and keeps him from finding a rhythm. They need to start implementing designed plays meant to help him succeed and get into a rhythm like screens and dumpoffs. They need to stop being so ****ing predictable so that every time he drops back the defense is ready for it, and can send the house at him.

In other words they need to grow some brains and actually see the player he is rather than trying to force him into their idea of the player he should be. That's what good coaches do.

Agamemnon
01-21-2012, 12:11 PM
Wow...so the team needs to adapt to Tebow...he doesn't have to adapt to the team....got it.

I recall Tony Sacca coming outta Penn State way back when...he was pretty good in college but struggled throwing in the NFL...his excuse was the difference in the balls...to which his coach told him, "Well son, you're gonna have to throw the NFL's ball...cuz it's the one we use at this level"

Point being throwing from the pocket is throwing from the pocket...doesn't matter what offense you run...he's not been very successful doing it far...hopefully he'll learn how

Good coaches adapt to their players and then try to improve their weaknesses while focusing on their strengths. I haven't seen much of that from this coaching staff, at least not in the passing game.

And really, what starting QB doesn't have the offense adapted to them? Who are you kidding?

Dedhed
01-21-2012, 12:17 PM
So enlighten us...we know that everyone else remotely involved in the passing game gets your lion's share of the blame....


Perhaps you could enlighten us as to why Tebow isn't deserving of the bulk of the credit for leading this team to a playoff win after a 1-4 start.

errand
01-21-2012, 12:38 PM
Hardly. He needs to work on his footwork. He needs to work on shifting his mentality regarding whether a player is open or not so that he's no longer expecting players to get wide open every play. He needs to work on delivering passes to a spot rather to a player. He needs to stop worrying so much about interceptions that it keeps him from attacking and trying to make a play. He needs to get better at checking down to his RB or TE when his WR's are covered.


Oh I see...so in your opinion he needs to do the same **** everyone else that has doubts about him has said he needs to do....but yet, you're not labelled a hater...things that make me go hmmmmm.

But at the same time, this coaching staff needs to get their heads out of their asses and realize that a spread option QB from college isn't being put in the best situations to throw with two recover sets. They need to realize that only letting him throw on 3rd down occasionally through most of a game isn't helping his development, is actually setting him up for failure, and keeps him from finding a rhythm. They need to start implementing designed plays meant to help him succeed and get into a rhythm like screens and dumpoffs. They need to stop being so ****ing predictable so that every time he drops back the defense is ready for it, and can send the house at him.

In other words they need to grow some brains and actually see the player he is rather than trying to force him into their idea of the player he should be. That's what good coaches do.


Ok...gotcha! Now i know why you clowns call us haters...because we don't bitch about everyone else on the team for **** Tebow needs to do....so if I understand you correctly, it's OK to say Tebow needs to improve his game, but you gotta qualify it first with how everyone else on the team sucks ass.

See I think the rest of us just hold the individual responsible for their faults...I don't blame Tebow for Royal or Decker dropping a ball they should have caught. I don't blame Tebow for Fox calling a run on 3rd and 8...I do however blame him for throwing a bad pass when a guy is open...or not seeing the open man waving his arms jumping up and down...I blame him for his lack of progress in his footwork and mechanics and for not "pulling the trigger".


in bold

errand
01-21-2012, 01:01 PM
Perhaps you could enlighten us as to why Tebow isn't deserving of the bulk of the credit for leading this team to a playoff win after a 1-4 start.


The bulk of the credit what has he done to deserve the lion's share of credit?

I enlightened you weeks ago, but since your mind obviously only reads "Tebow sucks" by anyone that isn't a nuthugger, here goes....


first off, I never said Tebow didn't deserve credit for our turnaround from 1-4 also ran to 8-8 AFC West champions....unlike you however i don't think it was all Tebow. See I know he was one ofthe reasons we won 7 of 8...i however did not think he was the sole reason we did...which of course in your warped mind means hatred for Tebow


[] Dumerville and DJ Williams were injured most of the first 5 games...they came back healthier and stronger, and the defense during that 7-1 run was allowing almost 11 points per game less than they were prior as they doubled the sacks per game total from 1.7 to 3.4....

[] they also generated more timely turnovers during it, like goodman's INT that set up Prater's game winner to beat Minnesota...coupled with the offense not turning it over (which I gave Tebow props for BTW) we were winning the turnover battle. they also were making big plays and stops when we needed them to...look at the Jet's game, between our d and ST's, Tebow and the O was spending alot of time at or near midfield.

[] Colquitt was punting at a pro bowl level as well during the 7-1 run....he constantly was pinning opposing offenses deep inside their territory.

[] Prater was clutch as well, making several big time kicks that tied or won 4 of them.

[] Decker helped us out by catching 4 TD's during the streak, and when he tailed off towards the end, Thomas started stepping up his game.

[] the coaching staff saw their young raw QB struggling with the passing game, and changed the O to protect him by running the ball more than normal, and while they weren't without fault, they also called enough good plays to help us win 7 of Tebow's 11 starts in regular season.

so again, while Tebow was A REASON...he was not THE REASON the Broncos went 7-1 in his first 8 starts this season


Now, your turn...since you think Tebow deserves the bulk of the credit for the 8 wins (including playoffs) explain why he doesn't get the bulk of the blame for the 5 losses (including playoffs) as well?

Agamemnon
01-21-2012, 01:12 PM
in bold

I blame coaches for not having the brains to build a proper offense for a unique QB with a non-traditional background, especially when said offense already exists and simply needs to be copied from (see Carolina). Yes Tebow needs to do better at his job, but having him throw out of two receiver sets constantly when his background is spread formations is the very definition of setting him up for failure. Now if he had multiple seasons to master that type of passing game things would be different, but as it is he doesn't and the complete lack of tailoring of the passing game to his strengths and background is just dumb on the part of the coaches.

errand
01-21-2012, 01:12 PM
Good coaches adapt to their players and then try to improve their weaknesses while focusing on their strengths. I haven't seen much of that from this coaching staff, at least not in the passing game.

And really, what starting QB doesn't have the offense adapted to them? Who are you kidding?

Running the ball is Tebow's strength...the staff had him running more than passing it...so to say they didn't cater to his strengths is just you being transparent....

As for the whole adapting to their Qb thing...Rodgers runs the same offense GB has ran since Favre was there....Eli Manning runs the same O that Coughlin installed when he had Kurt Warner....Tom Brady runs the same offense Drew Bledsoe ran....Rivers runs the same O that Brees did in SD. Flacco runs basically the same **** Dilfer did.

Sure they tweak it a bit to take advantage of things they do better than others, or if they're struggling to do this or that...but they don't try to re-invent the wheel.

But I think talent level has more to do with their success than "adapting the offense" to them does.

you telling me that a guy like Tom Brady, Drew Brees, Aaron Rodgers, or Peyton Manning wouldn't be successful on any other team?

Agamemnon
01-21-2012, 01:16 PM
As for the whole adapting to their Qb thing...Rodgers runs the same offense GB has ran since Favre was there....Eli Manning runs the same O that Coughlin installed when he had Kurt Warner....Tom Brady runs the same offense Drew Bledsoe ran....Rivers runs the same O that Brees did in SD. Flacco runs basically the same **** Dilfer did.


So much ignorance in so few sentences. Hilarious!

errand
01-21-2012, 01:21 PM
I blame coaches for not having the brains to build a proper offense for a unique QB with a non-traditional background, especially when said offense already exists and simply needs to be copied from (see Carolina).

They changed the offense to try and take advantage of Tebow's strengths...unfortunately, he's not as good throwing the ball as he is running it


Yes Tebow needs to do better at his job, but having him throw out of two receiver sets constantly when his background is spread formations is the very definition of setting him up for failure.

and yet when I or anyone else says the same thing about him needing to improve they're labelled as haters....so how is it every other QB can do it but he can't...especially given his unique skill set?


Now if he had multiple seasons to master that type of passing game things would be different, but as it is he doesn't and the complete lack of tailoring of the passing game to his strengths and background is just dumb on the part of the coaches.

Ok, you do realize they've been Tim's coaches for the same amount of games as he's been their player right? If all those excuses you and your cronies claim are why Tebow struggles...then why isn't this staff given the same ones when it comes to developing him?




in bold

errand
01-21-2012, 01:22 PM
So much ignorance in so few sentences. Hilarious!

you're telling me that those teams just changed their entire offense completely because of the QB? Please provide proof that they did this.....

Agamemnon
01-21-2012, 05:27 PM
you're telling me that those teams just changed their entire offense completely because of the QB? Please provide proof that they did this.....

You said that Brady is playing in same offense Bledsoe did. I'm not even going to go over the rest, because that one statement alone has enough stupid in it to last a lifetime.

errand
01-21-2012, 07:02 PM
You said that Brady is playing in same offense Bledsoe did. I'm not even going to go over the rest, because that one statement alone has enough stupid in it to last a lifetime.

So please enlighten us with all the huge changes in the Patriots offense when Tom took over....

strafen
01-21-2012, 07:16 PM
So please enlighten us with all the huge changes in the Patriots offense when Tom took over....

co-signed...

BroncoBeavis
01-21-2012, 07:24 PM
Are you guys saying Brady STILL runs the same offense that Bledsoe did? Or are you talking about back when he first started.

I do know that the Pats were much run heavier back in the Bledsoe/early Brady days. They didn't air it out at all like today's Pats.

TonyR
01-21-2012, 08:09 PM
Q: Isn't the Jaguars passing on Tim Tebow one of the worst draft decisions in history in any sport? Forget Bowie over Jordan, passing on Tebow will likely kill pro football in Jacksonville. If any team ever needed to draft a guy who could sell tickets, it was the Jags. And if there was ever a guy who could sell tickets IN FLORIDA, it was Tim Tebow. The Jags play in front of 20,000 empty seats per game, will likely move to LA in a couple years and Tim Tebow is the nation's favorite athlete. And to think how the Jags could've run every team into the ground with MJD and Tim Tebow. In fact, if I'm John Elway, I call the Jags up right now and see what they're willing to part with.
Sean, Washington, D.C.

SG: You're preaching to the choir it never made sense for Jacksonville to pass on Tebow, they should have just traded down 10 spots and taken him. The upside was too great. Again, they would have owned football in Florida had he panned out. What if the Jags offered Blaine Gabbert, their 2012 no. 1 pick (no. 7 overall) for Tebow? Wouldn't Elway have to take that deal? (Yes.) Wouldn't it be the most unpopular trade in recent sports history? (Yes.) Isn't Elway the only GM who can pull off such a trade, considering his own godlike status in Denver and the Broncos' fans unwillingness to vilify Elway even if he traded Tebow? (Yes.) Would anything be more riveting than Broncos fans quickly scapegoating Gabbert when he nearly self-destructed in Jacksonville with 200 times less attention? (Yes.) I can't think of a more fascinating fake sports trade it's even juicier (and slightly more logical) than a Dwyane Wade/Joel Anthony for Dwight Howard/J.J. Redick swap.http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/7484119/welcome-back-all-football-mailbag

Agamemnon
01-21-2012, 09:36 PM
So please enlighten us with all the huge changes in the Patriots offense when Tom took over....

Under Bledsoe they ran a straightforward run-to-set-up-the-pass offense that implemented a lot of play action. Today they run an offense that is more akin to certain college spread offenses combined with a heavy dose of two tight end sets. Unlike before, they now tend to use the run as a change of pace play that is meant to keep defenses honest rather than a mainstay. Both offenses are built on the same skeleton (Erdhart-Perkins), but to say that the Pats run the same offense today that they did in 2000 is completely idiotic.

BroncoMan4ever
01-21-2012, 11:29 PM
i honestly believe we should expect to hear one of the following names in the 2nd or 3rd round of the draft; Nick Foles, Ryan Tannehill, Brock Osweiler or Brandon Wheeden.

and unless Tebow takes the coming months seriously and hires someone to work on his deficiencies as a passer, all 4 of these guys would be capable of taking the starting job from him.

Drek
01-22-2012, 03:50 AM
I don't know where you are getting the elongated unsound throwing motion, because watching him play I never seen it. And National Football Post Scouting Section doesn't mention it either (http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/college_player_scouting_report.html&player=33154).

And he spent a lot of time under center and comes from pro style offense.

He's only been a starting QB for one and a half seasons, doesn't matter how pro style the offense is, he hasn't spent enough time in it to be a first rounder. That is the problem. Its contemporary college football so no kid spends the percentage of snaps behind center you'd really like for a future pro QB, in a strict ratio standpoint Tannehill isn't doing too bad. But in terms of sheer quantity its horrible.

As to his throwing motion, he drops his elbow low (not unlike Tebow) and then when he brings it up he doesn't get his release point as high as you'd expect as a result. Its not huge, just like how Tebow's actual arm motion isn't a huge problem. If he was actually healthy for the Senior Bowl and Combine I'm sure it would have become a question mark though.

The real problem for him is that he was viewed as a great dark horse first rounder who's athleticism could catapult him up draft boards. Now he can't show off that athleticism while his two biggest rivals, Foles and Osweiler, can show off what they are good at. Tannehill will need one hell of a pro day workout once his foot is healed and will need to absolutely kill interviews on his way there to make it in the first round. He's going to have a hard enough time not getting leaped by both of the above mentioned prospects.

oubronco
01-22-2012, 10:32 AM
Broncos will give quarterback Adam Weber a good look in offseason workouts


http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_19786154

BroncoBeavis
01-22-2012, 11:58 AM
http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/7484119/welcome-back-all-football-mailbag

Keep Dreamin Tony. Bet's still on the table. No takers.

Tebow fails in Denver. Everyone moves on. Gabbert fails in Denver, and Tebow looks decent in Jville. Elway's back to selling cars.

peacepipe
01-22-2012, 12:14 PM
Keep Dreamin Tony. Bet's still on the table. No takers.

Tebow fails in Denver. Everyone moves on. Gabbert fails in Denver, and Tebow looks decent in Jville. Elway's back to selling cars.everyone moving on won't happen, tebownites will say it is coaching not doing more to move to a college offense that lead to tebows demise.

mwill07
01-22-2012, 12:29 PM
Keep Dreamin Tony. Bet's still on the table. No takers.

Tebow fails in Denver. Everyone moves on. Gabbert fails in Denver, and Tebow looks decent in Jville. Elway's back to selling cars.

More than that though...if Broncos were to trade Tebow, they would lose a significant portion of the fanbase regardless of Tebow or Gabberts success. Moving Tebow at this point would cause a MUCH bigger backlash than cutler. I don't care to relive those days.

HAT
01-22-2012, 12:45 PM
Nevermind Gabbert...IF Jax were to offer this years number 1 straight up, EFX would jump at it.

Couldn't see Jax giving that much up though.

BroncoBeavis
01-22-2012, 05:27 PM
Nevermind Gabbert...IF Jax were to offer this years number 1 straight up, EFX would jump at it.

Couldn't see Jax giving that much up though.

Jax would have to deal Gabbert to bring in Tebow. Can't keep two first round projects on the payroll.

Outside of that- your comment proves delusion.

BroncoBeavis
01-22-2012, 05:30 PM
More than that though...if Broncos were to trade Tebow, they would lose a significant portion of the fanbase regardless of Tebow or Gabberts success. Moving Tebow at this point would cause a MUCH bigger backlash than cutler. I don't care to relive those days.

In the short term you're absolutely right.

TonyR
01-22-2012, 06:31 PM
Keep Dreamin Tony.

I didn't write the article, dipsh*t. But like Simmons says, if they offered the 7th pick and Gabbert (which they won't do, so I'm not "dreaming" about anything), the Broncos would have to take it.