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View Full Version : 2012 Mock Draft(s) for the Broncos so far....


Bronco Rob
01-20-2012, 02:16 AM
.

robbieopperude
01-20-2012, 04:33 AM
Minnifield and Gilmore would be reaches at 25 IMO.

Ray Finkle
01-20-2012, 05:50 AM
I'd rather go DT and address the CB issue with Finnegan, Carr, or Porter....

Poseidon
01-20-2012, 06:28 AM
I'd rather go DT and address the CB issue with Finnegan, Carr, or Porter....

Would you rather get Brockers or Still? (if we're lucky enough to get one of them)

Ray Finkle
01-20-2012, 06:37 AM
Would you rather get Brockers or Still? (if we're lucky enough to get one of them)

I'd take either but would prefer Still

DT's are a crap shoot but you need to start investing in bulk at the DT spot. I think you can get a good DL/MLB/RB in the first three rounds and pick up depth on the back end in the later rounds (as long as you get some good FA). QB will also probably be looked at mid rounds...

fwf
01-20-2012, 06:53 AM
With so many holes to fill and with so many underclassman declaring (65) i want to see us swap our #1 for a few 2,3 and 4's. And then draft all DL and DB's. Then look for some veteran high character guys at WR , RB and OL thru Free Agency. No Vince Young, Desean Jackson or Roy wIlliams's please. I want to see us grab one of either Wayne, Colston or Branch. And there are more then enough decent RB's that we could sign thru FA.

BroncoInferno
01-20-2012, 06:58 AM
I'd be happy with any of those players. I prefer Gilmore over Dennard, even though most outlets currently rate Dennard higher.

vancejohnson82
01-20-2012, 07:04 AM
I think at 25 in the first, DT is a roll of the dice...wouldnt mind seeing a corner taken there although I'm not really a fan of either of the guys listed up top. Tight End, IMO, would be ridiculous being that we have 55 of them on the roster right now. Why no MLB mention?

Ray Finkle
01-20-2012, 07:08 AM
I think at 25 in the first, DT is a roll of the dice...wouldnt mind seeing a corner taken there although I'm not really a fan of either of the guys listed up top. Tight End, IMO, would be ridiculous being that we have 55 of them on the roster right now. Why no MLB mention?

the only MLB's worth the first round pick will be long gone before 25. I'd love to get a shot at the guy from BC.

gyldenlove
01-20-2012, 08:13 AM
30058

From nfldraftscout.com

jhns
01-20-2012, 08:17 AM
I would love to get Dennard. You can never have too many Huskers. That said, we need to go BPA. This team has far too many holes to just target a few positions. We need starters pretty kuch everywhere and could use depth at every position. If we find a good middle, we may not need OLB. That is probably the only position I would avoid, other than non-first round positions like FB/K/P.

TheReverend
01-20-2012, 10:17 AM
If we take a first round DT it needs to be Still. I've been banging his drum for over a year and now sadly he may have become a top 10 pick and out of our reach :(

gyldenlove
01-20-2012, 10:27 AM
If we can't get Dennard, Jenkins or Kirkpatrick at CB, and I am assuming Still will be long gone, I am almost leaning toward Hightower at MLB if Kuechly is gone.

Lestat
01-20-2012, 10:28 AM
the draft picture will change a lot between now and week leading up to the draft. for the first time in many years(since the Ashley Lelie draft) i have no idea who i want with the pick yet.

HumbleNJH
01-20-2012, 10:52 AM
Still is a stud. He will be gone when we pick unfortunately. Crick in the second round may be an option. Dennard would be a very solid pick at 25. He is a great corner prospect. I watched every one of his games the past three years, and I'm telling you he is very good. He will go.first round. He is a lock down corner who tackles really well. I would be very pleased with Dennard. Hightower would be a solid pick as well. I say we trade up or down though. If we trade down, we shouldn't go any lower than pick 3 in the second round.

BABronco
01-20-2012, 10:54 AM
I'll admit I really don't know much about this class but I want someone who is nasty mean. So for the draft experts here, who are some of the nastiest mikes, safeties and dt's coming out this year that would be possible for denver to pick up in the first and 2nd rounds?

DomCasual
01-20-2012, 10:58 AM
That Cox guy would be funny!

http://collider.com/wp-content/uploads/beavis_butt-head_image_washington_monument_01.jpg

HumbleNJH
01-20-2012, 11:05 AM
I'll admit I really don't know much about this class but I want someone who is nasty mean. So for the draft experts here, who are some of the nastiest mikes, safeties and dt's coming out this year that would be possible for denver to pick up in the first and 2nd rounds?

Dennard, Hightower, Still, Crick are a few names. Also Kirkpatrick. I believe Still and Kirkpatrick will be gone by the time we pick. Crick is a second round guy.

I will throw this out there as well. Lavonte David. He would be a steal in round three. If we could get him in round two, late, he would be worth it. His size is the only issue. But the kid is a baller. He was a top 3 LBer in college football this year.

orange crusher
01-20-2012, 11:10 AM
Dennard, Hightower, Still, Crick are a few names. Also Kirkpatrick. I believe Still and Kirkpatrick will be gone by the time we pick. Crick is a second round guy.

I will throw this out there as well. Lavonte David. He would be a steal in round three. If we could get him in round two, late, he would be worth it. His size is the only issue. But the kid is a baller. He was a top 3 LBer in college football this year.

Your husker homerism is showing.

BABronco
01-20-2012, 11:10 AM
This guy sounds mean. Possible 4th 5th? Anyone know where he is projected?

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/1262940

gyldenlove
01-20-2012, 11:18 AM
This guy sounds mean. Possible 4th 5th? Anyone know where he is projected?

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/1262940

UDFA.

HumbleNJH
01-20-2012, 11:32 AM
Your husker homerism is showing.

They are good players. I'm not that high on Crick though. He has the scouts liking him though. But yeah, I am a Husker fan, but a realist as well.

ColoradoBuff
01-20-2012, 11:41 AM
Dennard is over-rated!

pricejj
01-20-2012, 11:43 AM
Still is a stud. He will be gone when we pick unfortunately. Crick in the second round may be an option. Dennard would be a very solid pick at 25. He is a great corner prospect. I watched every one of his games the past three years, and I'm telling you he is very good. He will go.first round. He is a lock down corner who tackles really well. I would be very pleased with Dennard. Hightower would be a solid pick as well. I say we trade up or down though. If we trade down, we shouldn't go any lower than pick 3 in the second round.

1. Crick is better than Still, their production isn't even close.
2. Dennard is 5'9". Gilmore is bigger, faster, and better in man coverage.
3. I like Hightower, but only if Jared Crick, and Lamar Miller are gone.

pricejj
01-20-2012, 11:50 AM
Players listed in order to be taken (depending on who is available at pick #25).


1. Peter Konz will be a perennial Pro-Bowler, and if he's on the board (which is highly unlikely), the Broncos should take him.

2. Jared Crick is exactly the guy we need to be able to beat the Patriots. He is not an athletic freak, but he put up elite sack numbers at Nebraska. IMO he has the potential to make the Pro-Bowl as an Under Tackle. His numbers are way better than Fletcher Cox and Devon Still, who are probably just "guys" at UT (like Marcus Thomas).

3. Lamar Miller has elite speed at the RB position, would provide the instant 1-2 punch that Fox likes. Definite Pro-Bowl potential. Instant spark for the offense.

4. Dont'a Hightower is a good MLB, but doesn't have elite speed (like Al Wilson, Ray Lewis, Brian Urlacher). Would be a significant upgrade over Joe Mays, but I don't see EFX drafting an MLB right after picking Irving. Leader of the best defense in the history of college football. Possible Pro-Bowler.

5. Fletcher Cox only had 5 sacks (one year wonder). Poor mans Marcel Dareus. Can he be a dominate at UT in the NFL? Who knows? But he didn't exactly show it in college.

6. Devon Still only had 4.5 sacks this year, and did not dominate. Would be a solid starter, but a stretch to make the Pro-Bowl.

7. Stephon Gilmore is a good man-cover CB, with great size, and 3 int's this year, but UT is more important than CB. Possible Pro-Bowler.

8. Luke Kuechly, I think will slip a bit in this draft. He has great tackle numbers, but let's ball carriers get up the field too much, 4.8 forty (pretty slow), may have trouble dominating in the NFL.

9. Alphonzo Dennard is only 5'9"...slightly diminutive, but a good cover CB.

10. Zebrie Sanders is a better RT than Orlando Franklin (who will need to move to LG). Depending on the health of Ryan Harris, Sanders may be an option in the first round.

11. Chase Minnifield is more of a zone cover guy IMO, 2nd rounder. I like the player, but don't see him making the Pro-Bowl, which is what you want out of a 1st round pick.

NFLBRONCO
01-20-2012, 11:55 AM
I love these mocks they always pick DT for us and we hardly ever draft any. Time to guess at another position.

iforgotmypassword
01-20-2012, 01:43 PM
Dennard, Hightower, Still, Crick are a few names. Also Kirkpatrick. I believe Still and Kirkpatrick will be gone by the time we pick. Crick is a second round guy.

I will throw this out there as well. Lavonte David. He would be a steal in round three. If we could get him in round two, late, he would be worth it. His size is the only issue. But the kid is a baller. He was a top 3 LBer in college football this year.


David is an absolute beast, I would not be surprised if he climbs to early 2 by the time the process is over. He is all over the field, has huge production, plays big in big games, creates turnovers. He reminds me of Derrick Brooks. I'd be absolutely in love with this pick. This Wesley Woodyards skill set being played at an elite level.

Dennard is also a great and somewhat underrated player. Crick IMO is overrated, he has a killer instinct but he just get pushed around wayyyy too much.

A good corner to look at in round3ish is Trumaine Johnson out of Montana, hes a starter in this league.

Players I like at 25..... Love Hightower, wish we had a bigger need for Upshaw I'd even be willing to trade up for him. Doesn't really fit a position of need though. The Clemson TE makes sense. No Safeties, including Barron, worth the pick.

iforgotmypassword
01-20-2012, 01:47 PM
Also, If Devon Still is there, you absolutely take him. If you watched ANY of Penn States games this year, you know his numbers don't do him justice, he was an absolute force in the middle of the field.

gyldenlove
01-20-2012, 02:04 PM
David is an absolute beast, I would not be surprised if he climbs to early 2 by the time the process is over. He is all over the field, has huge production, plays big in big games, creates turnovers. He reminds me of Derrick Brooks. I'd be absolutely in love with this pick. This Wesley Woodyards skill set being played at an elite level.

Dennard is also a great and somewhat underrated player. Crick IMO is overrated, he has a killer instinct but he just get pushed around wayyyy too much.

A good corner to look at in round3ish is Trumaine Johnson out of Montana, hes a starter in this league.

Players I like at 25..... Love Hightower, wish we had a bigger need for Upshaw I'd even be willing to trade up for him. Doesn't really fit a position of need though. The Clemson TE makes sense. No Safeties, including Barron, worth the pick.

I just don't get Dwayne Allen as a 1st round pick, I know he is the highest rated TE in the draft but that doesn't make him a 1st rounder. I just see a poor mans Brandon Pettigrew. I think Fleener is a better fit for us but it would be a reach to get him at 25.

Requiem
01-20-2012, 02:11 PM
heathcliff jordan is the proespect i am most looking foreward to seeing at the senior smokeabowl.

RocBronc
01-20-2012, 02:12 PM
It's early yet, but one thing I'm pretty certain is that with the variety of needs we have I can't imagine a scenario where we trade up from 25.

brother love
01-20-2012, 02:16 PM
Also, If Devon Still is there, you absolutely take him. If you watched ANY of Penn States games this year, you know his numbers don't do him justice, he was an absolute force in the middle of the field.

As a Penn State fan this is dead on. He is always in the opponents backfield.

BroncoBeavis
01-20-2012, 02:20 PM
As a Penn State fan this is dead on. He is always in the opponents backfield.

This is where whoever broke the Sandusky joke ice in another thread needs to step up.

pricejj
01-20-2012, 02:28 PM
David is an absolute beast, I would not be surprised if he climbs to early 2 by the time the process is over. He is all over the field, has huge production, plays big in big games, creates turnovers. He reminds me of Derrick Brooks. I'd be absolutely in love with this pick. This Wesley Woodyards skill set being played at an elite level.

Dennard is also a great and somewhat underrated player. Crick IMO is overrated, he has a killer instinct but he just get pushed around wayyyy too much.

A good corner to look at in round3ish is Trumaine Johnson out of Montana, hes a starter in this league.

Players I like at 25..... Love Hightower, wish we had a bigger need for Upshaw I'd even be willing to trade up for him. Doesn't really fit a position of need though. The Clemson TE makes sense. No Safeties, including Barron, worth the pick.

I'll take your word on Devon Still, and move him up accordingly. I haven't seen Crick get pushed around, other than against Wisconsin this year (Konz), in which he was playing hurt. Please elaborate. Crick was listed as one of the top two DL prospects at the start of the year, get's hurt and falls way down? Just don't see it.

Upshaw is better than Hightower, and if he is there at #25 (which he won't be), you pick him...definite Pro-Bowler.

Why would you pick Lavonte David if you have D.J. and Miller?

I'm thinking Crick in the 1st, with either David Wilson, Chris Polk, Michael Brewster, Jayron Hosley, Bobby Massie (RT), or Trumain Johnson in the 2nd. Look at Weeden, Lindley, or Osweiler at QB in the 3rd. I also like Marvin McNutt in the 3rd.

brother love
01-20-2012, 02:30 PM
This is where whoever broke the Sandusky joke ice in another thread needs to step up.
I thought when i typed it but didn't really know how to put it another way.

pricejj
01-20-2012, 02:34 PM
As a Penn State fan this is dead on. He is always in the opponents backfield.

Why didn't he get more career sacks? Lord knows we don't need anymore non-sacking DT's. Keep in mind he was a 5th year Senior...he should be stronger than most of the other guys...he is almost 23 years old. Devon Still would probably make a similar impact as a guy like Robert Ayers (which is not enough). Fletcher Cox is a similar player, has more room to grow, and is 1.5 years younger.


We need a Pro-Bowler out of this pick.

BroncoBeavis
01-20-2012, 03:20 PM
Why didn't he get more career sacks? Lord knows we don't need anymore non-sacking DT's. Keep in mind he was a 5th year Senior...he should be stronger than most of the other guys...he is almost 23 years old. Devon Still would probably make a similar impact as a guy like Robert Ayers (which is not enough). Fletcher Cox is a similar player, has more room to grow, and is 1.5 years younger.


We need a Pro-Bowler out of this pick.

I read something lately, might've been on iaofm about how underrated Ayers was this season. I think people put far too much emphasis on sack counts.

pricejj
01-20-2012, 04:08 PM
I read something lately, might've been on iaofm about how underrated Ayers was this season. I think people put far too much emphasis on sack counts.

I like Ayers, and I read the same thing. The dude is solid, and an integral member of the team. I also don't see Ayers making any Pro-Bowls (which is what I look for in a 1st round pick). One thing is certain, our front 4 generate little to none pass rush by themselves, and it is why Brady was able to set an NFL record for touchdown passes in a playoff game against us.

We need more push in the middle. It is the only possible way we can beat the Patriots.

Archer81
01-20-2012, 04:11 PM
I like Ayers, and I read the same thing. The dude is solid, and an integral member of the team. I also don't see Ayers making any Pro-Bowls (which is what I look for in a 1st round pick). One thing is certain, our front 4 generate little to none pass rush by themselves, and it is why Brady was able to set an NFL record for touchdown passes in a playoff game against us.

We need more push in the middle. It is the only possible way we can beat the Patriots.


To be fair, it would probably help if the coverage was a bit tighter to actually allow the defensive line time to get to the QB. I am not discounting the need for greater interior pass rush though. Too often this season QB's had to just avoid the outside rush and step up in the pocket. Of course we have been screaming for better defensive linemen for a decade though...

:Broncos:

Tombstone RJ
01-20-2012, 04:23 PM
I'd like to talk about another aspect of the team, the cheerleaders. I'd like to see this lady get a shot at making the squad:

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/000/799/540/Elin_Nordegren_112010124710PM651_display_image.jpg ?1300653449

that is all...

iforgotmypassword
01-20-2012, 06:25 PM
I'll take your word on Devon Still, and move him up accordingly. I haven't seen Crick get pushed around, other than against Wisconsin this year (Konz), in which he was playing hurt. Please elaborate. Crick was listed as one of the top two DL prospects at the start of the year, get's hurt and falls way down? Just don't see it.

Upshaw is better than Hightower, and if he is there at #25 (which he won't be), you pick him...definite Pro-Bowler.

Why would you pick Lavonte David if you have D.J. and Miller?

I'm thinking Crick in the 1st, with either David Wilson, Chris Polk, Michael Brewster, Jayron Hosley, Bobby Massie (RT), or Trumain Johnson in the 2nd. Look at Weeden, Lindley, or Osweiler at QB in the 3rd. I also like Marvin McNutt in the 3rd.

This much I know....a few people I knew actually going to Nebraska thought that Crick was battling undisclosed injuries all year..... could mean something, I still don't want him in the 1st.

Lavonte David you're spot on with, and it sucks for us but sometimes you just need to take the BPa regaurdless. Don't want him at 25 either.

Did Osweiler declare? Now theres a prospect.

I cant say that I don't know as much about some other DT's, only saw Clemson play twice, and to me the freshman DE was the stud of that Dline, number 90.

What's everones thoughts on Ashlon Jeffery at 25??? I HATE to see a WR in round one, but he's a Brandon Marshall clone.

TheReverend
01-20-2012, 06:28 PM
This is where whoever broke the Sandusky joke ice in another thread needs to step up.

:(

iforgotmypassword
01-20-2012, 06:28 PM
I just don't get Dwayne Allen as a 1st round pick, I know he is the highest rated TE in the draft but that doesn't make him a 1st rounder. I just see a poor mans Brandon Pettigrew. I think Fleener is a better fit for us but it would be a reach to get him at 25.

I can agree with that, the way the NFL is going a huge TE that can play tight can be just as effective as the Jimmy Graham/Vernon Davis 1st round freaks. Early prediction, Fleener to the 9ers, Harbaugh ran sooo much two TE in Stanford I damn near think Belichick stole the two TE sets from him.

LongDongJohnson
01-20-2012, 06:38 PM
we dont need another corner named alphonzo

Poseidon
01-21-2012, 04:04 AM
To be fair, it would probably help if the coverage was a bit tighter to actually allow the defensive line time to get to the QB. I am not discounting the need for greater interior pass rush though. Too often this season QB's had to just avoid the outside rush and step up in the pocket. Of course we have been screaming for better defensive linemen for a decade though...

:Broncos:

This.

If we had a lineman or a linebacker who could actually pose a threat in the middle, this defense would improve dramatically.

Bronco Rob
01-21-2012, 07:12 AM
http://www.sbnation.com/ncaa-football/2012/1/20/2721041/dwayne-allen-2012-nfl-draft-denver-broncos-first-round

Vegas_Bronco
01-21-2012, 07:46 AM
Rep for putting this together

Last years draft was sensational...let's just find 4-5 solid contributors and get as many veterans through fa. At 25the we gotta do our homework but im sure we will go defense the first 2 rounds.

TheReverend
01-21-2012, 08:12 AM
http://www.sbnation.com/ncaa-football/2012/1/20/2721041/dwayne-allen-2012-nfl-draft-denver-broncos-first-round

I prefer to continue stacking defensive talent, but a great TE option would be a HUGE asset to Tim's development in the passing game.

Bronco Rob
01-21-2012, 08:29 AM
<script type="text/javascript" src="http://www.fftoolbox.com/nfl_draft/team_report.cfm?team=den&wide=1"></script><noscript><a href="http://www.fftoolbox.com/nfl_draft/index.cfm" target="_blank">FFToolbox NFL Mock Drafts and Scouting Reports</a></noscript>

bpc
01-21-2012, 08:56 AM
Bronco Rob has it right. TE/DT/CB but if a major player at LB falls in there, i wouldn't be unhappy with it.

Bronco Rob
01-21-2012, 08:58 AM
http://aol.sportingnews.com/nfl/feed/2011-10/nfl-mock-draft/story/nfl-mock-draft-andrew-luck-robert-griffin-iii-justin-blackmon-matt-kalil

pricejj
01-21-2012, 10:44 AM
To be fair, it would probably help if the coverage was a bit tighter to actually allow the defensive line time to get to the QB. I am not discounting the need for greater interior pass rush though. Too often this season QB's had to just avoid the outside rush and step up in the pocket. Of course we have been screaming for better defensive linemen for a decade though...

:Broncos:

The only CB I would want at pick #25 is Gilmore...even then, I hate picking CB's in the 1st round, when you could be getting talented bigs.

Other than Von Miller pick in the last draft (which was an obvious choice), I have been dissapointed.

1. Knowshon Moreno - is slow, and smallish...definitely not a #12 pick
2. Robert Ayers - we needed a pass rush, so McD picks a 23 year old in the first round with 3 sacks...big reach
3. Zane Beadles - was the 5th rated guard in that draft...should have been a 4th round pick...we picked him in the 2nd.
4. J.D. Walton - in a bad draft for Centers, we pick the 3rd rated guy to be our starter.
5. Rahim Moore - in a bad draft for Safeties, we trade down out of a high 2nd round draft pick, to pick a slow (4.58 forty), smallish safety, who's not even a top 50 prospect, and expect him to light the world on fire.
6. Orlando Franklin - we pick a guy who has never played RT in his life, and has obvious slow feet on tape, to guard Tebow's blind side. Franklin is a Guard not a Right Tackle.
6. Nate Irving - in a bad draft for MLB, we pick a guy in the 3rd round to start, who has a metal rod in his leg.
7. Quenton Carter - Not a bad choice, but a 4th round pick, in a bad draft for Safeties, to play FS (who only has a few int's), to replace Pro-Bowler Brian Dawkins.

Essentially we have used high draft picks the last 2 years to pick middle round OL prospects...and that is why Tebow is bleeding internally, with fluid on his lung.

In contrast, observe the New England Patriots, who have used their high draft picks to pick Elite OL (like Solder), and we couldn't even touch Brady.

DivineLegion
01-21-2012, 10:52 AM
There are only two Huskers worth anything in this draft.

Lavonte David, and Rex Burkhead.

Denard is awful and got exposed this year as a product of Princes shutdown prowess. Crick is an athelete who will get tons of attention, but will produce little on the field.

gyldenlove
01-21-2012, 02:12 PM
The only CB I would want at pick #25 is Gilmore...even then, I hate picking CB's in the 1st round, when you could be getting talented bigs.

Other than Von Miller pick in the last draft (which was an obvious choice), I have been dissapointed.

1. Knowshon Moreno - is slow, and smallish...definitely not a #12 pick
2. Robert Ayers - we needed a pass rush, so McD picks a 23 year old in the first round with 3 sacks...big reach
3. Zane Beadles - was the 5th rated guard in that draft...should have been a 4th round pick...we picked him in the 2nd.
4. J.D. Walton - in a bad draft for Centers, we pick the 3rd rated guy to be our starter.
5. Rahim Moore - in a bad draft for Safeties, we trade down out of a high 2nd round draft pick, to pick a slow (4.58 forty), smallish safety, who's not even a top 50 prospect, and expect him to light the world on fire.
6. Orlando Franklin - we pick a guy who has never played RT in his life, and has obvious slow feet on tape, to guard Tebow's blind side. Franklin is a Guard not a Right Tackle.
6. Nate Irving - in a bad draft for MLB, we pick a guy in the 3rd round to start, who has a metal rod in his leg.
7. Quenton Carter - Not a bad choice, but a 4th round pick, in a bad draft for Safeties, to play FS (who only has a few int's), to replace Pro-Bowler Brian Dawkins.

Essentially we have used high draft picks the last 2 years to pick middle round OL prospects...and that is why Tebow is bleeding internally, with fluid on his lung.

In contrast, observe the New England Patriots, who have used their high draft picks to pick Elite OL (like Solder), and we couldn't even touch Brady.

The fact that we couldn't get to Brady has infinitely more to do with Brady than with Solder - the reason people can get to Tebow has more to do with Tebow than it does the offensive line.

Tebow's playing style is why Tebow will get hurt, when you hold the ball that long and you run that way you are going to get hit hard and frequent, even if you had Zimmerman, Nails et al blocking for you.

How late do you want to draft people? Carter was the consensus top ranked SS in the draft and we got him in the middle of the draft - complaining about that is just whining for the sake of whining.

Franklin was drafted to be a run blocking road grade which is what you want on the RT and what he is - the fact that circumstances changed and we ended up with a left handed passer is frankly besides the point. We needed a RT and Franklin was the highest rated RT available.

Since when is 6-0 and 200 lbs small for a FS? Moore was overdrafted, but when you have no starting safety who is not closer to his 40th and this 30th birthday you have to do that.

I agree with you on Beadles and Walton - those were desperate picks by a guy who had no concept of draft value as witnessed by his many picks drafted much higher than they should be and his very bad trades.

Here are the 40 yard times for Knowshon Moreno and the 3 top running backs from the 2009 draft in random order: 4.68, 4.62, 4.50, 4.50
Those numbers belong to: Arian Foster, Shonn Greene, Leshean Mccoy and Moreno respectively. Not a single RB with a better 40 time than Moreno that year has had any success as a RB - Shonn Greene and Mccoy are the same height as Moreno (Foster is 2 inches taller), Foster and Greene were 9 and 10 pounds heavier while Mccoy was 13 pounds lighter than Moreno. Saying he was small and slow is simply not true.

pricejj
01-21-2012, 03:23 PM
There are only two Huskers worth anything in this draft.

Lavonte David, and Rex Burkhead.

Denard is awful and got exposed this year as a product of Princes shutdown prowess. Crick is an athelete who will get tons of attention, but will produce little on the field.

Jared Crick - DT - Nebraska
2008 - 1 sack (limited playing time as a freshman)
2009 - 9.5 sacks (played with Suh)
2010 - 9.5 sacks
2011- 1 sack (torn pectoral early in the year, sat out year)

You are trying to tell me that Jared Crick will produce little on the field? If he didn't get injured this year, and go out, he probably would have finished with around 9 sacks again. He would have been a top 20 pick like a Ryan Kerrigan, or J.J. Watt. He is a FAR better player than Fletcher Cox or Devon Still. Crick is solid against the run as well (compiles a bunch of TFL's).

I bet Crick gets at least 7 sacks his first year in the NFL.

pricejj
01-21-2012, 03:46 PM
The fact that we couldn't get to Brady has infinitely more to do with Brady than with Solder - the reason people can get to Tebow has more to do with Tebow than it does the offensive line.

Tebow's playing style is why Tebow will get hurt, when you hold the ball that long and you run that way you are going to get hit hard and frequent, even if you had Zimmerman, Nails et al blocking for you.

Really? Tebow got hurt after being sandwiched by Minkovich and a DT. Minkovich had 2 sacks in the game that Tebow didn't have a chance against. I agree Tebow needs to get much better in the pocket...but the Broncos is porous in pass blocking. The NE DL dominated against the Broncos OL in both the running and passing game (Broncos had 15 negative plays).


How late do you want to draft people? Carter was the consensus top ranked SS in the draft and we got him in the middle of the draft - complaining about that is just whining for the sake of whining.

Like I said, Carter wasn't a bad pick...as a SS. Carter did not have good interception numbers in college, doesn't have great speed, and got owned all year long (until he came through with the pick against Roethlisberger, then again against Brady). I don't mind him playing at SS (if he could show that he could guard TE's well), and will probably develop into a solid starter. Pro-Bowler? probably not. FS? I would rather have someone with more ball skills.

Franklin was drafted to be a run blocking road grade which is what you want on the RT and what he is - the fact that circumstances changed and we ended up with a left handed passer is frankly besides the point. We needed a RT and Franklin was the highest rated RT available.

A 3 year old retarded monkey could see that Orlando Franklin had slow feet in college. Here is a question for you: How could Franklin have been rated at RT...if he never played RT in his life? He wasn't. He was the highest rated OL player remaining when we picked him, and could be a Pro-Bowl LG. He will be moved from RT whenever Xanders and Fox get a replacement (maybe Ryan Harris), it is just a matter of time. I love Big O...at LG.

Since when is 6-0 and 200 lbs small for a FS? Moore was overdrafted, but when you have no starting safety who is not closer to his 40th and this 30th birthday you have to do that.

They could have just picked Carter and not Moore. Steve Atwater played FS, was 6'2" 215 lbs., had MUCH better ball skills, and was way more physical. Moore will never amount to much because he is too slow. 4.4 forty speed at FS is what you want...4.6? not so much. Rahim Moore has never had a physical presence and was a serious reach (in a bad year for safeties). Xanders does not know how to play to the strengths of a draft. Markelle Martin, or Robert Lester, are better players in this years draft, and could be had at a lower price. You don't just pick a player out of desperation because he is the highest rated safety in that draft class.

I agree with you on Beadles and Walton - those were desperate picks by a guy who had no concept of draft value as witnessed by his many picks drafted much higher than they should be and his very bad trades.

Here are the 40 yard times for Knowshon Moreno and the 3 top running backs from the 2009 draft in random order: 4.68, 4.62, 4.50, 4.50
Those numbers belong to: Arian Foster, Shonn Greene, Leshean Mccoy and Moreno respectively. Not a single RB with a better 40 time than Moreno that year has had any success as a RB - Shonn Greene and Mccoy are the same height as Moreno (Foster is 2 inches taller), Foster and Greene were 9 and 10 pounds heavier while Mccoy was 13 pounds lighter than Moreno. Saying he was small and slow is simply not true.

I don't know about you, but I would much rather the Broncos have picked Orakpo, Pouncey, or Bulaga, in that draft. Moreno, although a good college back, did not appear to be a good pro prospect at that time, and did not deserve the #12 overall pick.

As long as Xanders keeps following the Mel Kiper guide to drafting...we will keep reaching. With a 1st round pick, you should be thinking Pro-Bowl.

That is why I want the Broncos to take Jared Crick. He has shown the production, and is a potential Pro-Bowler. You can't say the same for Still or Cox. Peter Konz, Lamar Miller, and Dont'a Hightower would be good picks as well. Stephon Gilmore as an emergency option.

Rohirrim
01-21-2012, 03:49 PM
The fact that we couldn't get to Brady has infinitely more to do with Brady than with Solder - the reason people can get to Tebow has more to do with Tebow than it does the offensive line.



Yep. If you go back and watch that game again Brady was getting rid of that ball in three seconds. I was sitting on the couch counting, "One, two, three, gone." I remember thinking early on, well there goes the pass rush.

pricejj
01-21-2012, 04:10 PM
Yep. If you go back and watch that game again Brady was getting rid of that ball in three seconds. I was sitting on the couch counting, "One, two, three, gone." I remember thinking early on, well there goes the pass rush.

The only way you beat Brady, Rodgers, Brees...is by consistent pressure.

iforgotmypassword
01-21-2012, 04:26 PM
Rex Burkhead is returning.

On the Crick arguement. Attitude wise, alone he is a JJ Watt/Kerrigan type. As far as talent AND motor, I really just don't see it. He's just a big mean looking white guy so people are high on him. Not a first round talen IMO.

As for the arguments against our drafts, I mostly agree with pricejj, Von being the exception. Ayers had a good year, but by all means is a bust. Slowshown is an epic bust. Quinn wasn't even mentioned in there, holy ***les what a ****ty pick that was, trading for alphonzo, just some epicly bad picks. Even Orlando Franklin and Raheem Moore is a serious ****-show looking at their first years. I don't think one year is a good estimate on Safetys, but for road-graders, its enough time to tell where thier ceiling is at, Franklin has damn near hit his.

Aside from Von, our best picks in awhile have been Erik Decker and Quinton Carter.

houghtam
01-21-2012, 04:26 PM
Jared Crick - DT - Nebraska
2008 - 1 sack (limited playing time as a freshman)
2009 - 9.5 sacks (played with Suh)
2010 - 9.5 sacks
2011- 1 sack (torn pectoral early in the year, sat out year)

You are trying to tell me that Jared Crick will produce little on the field? If he didn't get injured this year, and go out, he probably would have finished with around 9 sacks again. He would have been a top 20 pick like a Ryan Kerrigan, or J.J. Watt. He is a FAR better player than Fletcher Cox or Devon Still. Crick is solid against the run as well (compiles a bunch of TFL's).

I bet Crick gets at least 7 sacks his first year in the NFL.

So you're not only advocating taking a guy who missed most of the season with a torn pectoral muscle (keep in mind it took Dumervil over a year to recover from his) over guys who are pretty much consensus top 15 picks, you're saying he's FAR better?

Cool story, bro.

barryr
01-21-2012, 04:38 PM
If the Broncos stay where they are at, right now, I would say the players for the Broncos to look at most are: DT Fletcher Cox, RB Miller, or ILB Hightower. Those 3 could still be there at #25.

pricejj
01-21-2012, 04:53 PM
So you're not only advocating taking a guy who missed most of the season with a torn pectoral muscle (keep in mind it took Dumervil over a year to recover from his) over guys who are pretty much consensus top 15 picks, you're saying he's FAR better?

Cool story, bro.

Fletcher Cox and Devon Still are consensus top 15 picks? I highly doubt either one of those players are picked in the top 15.

Devon Still - DT
2011 - 52 tackles, 4.5 sacks (22 years old)
2010 - 39 tackles, 4 sacks (21 years old)
2010 - 18 tackles, 2 sacks (20 years old)

Fletcher Cox - DT
2011 - 56 tackles, 5 sacks (21 years old)
2010 - 29 tackles, 2.5 sacks (20 years old)
2009 - 29 tackles, 0 sacks (19 years old)

Jared Crick - DT
2011 - 22 tackles, 1 sack (22 years old) (5 games...tore his pectoral in game 3)
2010 - 70 tackles, 9.5 sacks (21 years old)
2009 - 70 tackles, 9.5 sacks (20 years old)

Yes, Jared Crick's stats are far better than either Still or Cox. Your analysis is wack bro.

houghtam
01-21-2012, 05:05 PM
Fletcher Cox and Devon Still are consensus top 15 picks? I highly doubt either one of those players are picked in the top 15.

Devon Still - DT
2011 - 52 tackles, 4.5 sacks (22 years old)
2010 - 39 tackles, 4 sacks (21 years old)
2010 - 18 tackles, 2 sacks (20 years old)

Fletcher Cox - DT
2011 - 56 tackles, 5 sacks (21 years old)
2010 - 29 tackles, 2.5 sacks (20 years old)
2009 - 29 tackles, 0 sacks (19 years old)

Jared Crick - DT
2011 - 22 tackles, 1 sack (22 years old) (5 games...tore his pectoral in game 3)
2010 - 70 tackles, 9.5 sacks (21 years old)
2009 - 70 tackles, 9.5 sacks (20 years old)

Yes, Jared Crick's stats are far better than either Still or Cox. Your analysis is wack bro.

You can highly doubt til you're blue in the face. Doesn't make it true. I bet both those guys are off the board before Crick.

SpringStein
01-21-2012, 05:13 PM
If Michael Brockers, DT from LSU, is available at #25 he's tops on my wish list.

pricejj
01-21-2012, 05:25 PM
If Michael Brockers, DT from LSU, is available at #25 he's tops on my wish list.

Michael Brockers - DT
2011 - 54 tackles, 2 sacks (21 years old)

No thanks. He is not a penetrating UT.

pricejj
01-21-2012, 05:28 PM
You can highly doubt til you're blue in the face. Doesn't make it true. I bet both those guys are off the board before Crick.

LOL why because their black? Fact is Jared Crick was ranked as the #2 DE at the start of the year (behind Coples), then he tore a pec, and all of a sudden marginal players like Cox and Still are better? No way.

NFL GM's would be stupid to pick Fletcher and Cox ahead of Crick, they didn't even dominate at the college level.

CEH
01-21-2012, 05:34 PM
Josh Norman Coastal Carolina is a rising CB who could be there in the 3rd or 2nd. 6'1 203 ligthing it up at the East West Shrine game

houghtam
01-21-2012, 06:06 PM
LOL why because their black? Fact is Jared Crick was ranked as the #2 DE at the start of the year (behind Coples), then he tore a pec, and all of a sudden marginal players like Cox and Still are better? No way.

NFL GM's would be stupid to pick Fletcher and Cox ahead of Crick, they didn't even dominate at the college level.

Not sure what them being black has to do with anything, but ok...

houghtam
01-21-2012, 06:19 PM
LOL why because their black? Fact is Jared Crick was ranked as the #2 DE at the start of the year (behind Coples), then he tore a pec, and all of a sudden marginal players like Cox and Still are better? No way.

NFL GM's would be stupid to pick Fletcher and Cox ahead of Crick, they didn't even dominate at the college level.

Okay wait, so in another thread you say Crick won't go in the top 15, and in this thread you're saying he's the best DT available? Are you saying the crop is that poor? I mean, there's only been one draft where a DT didn't go in the top 15 in the past 15 years, and everything I've heard has said this crop of DTs is as good and deep as there ever was.

I see Still and Brockers going top 15, Worthy and Cox going top 25. I wouldn't be surprised to see Crick drop out of the first round entirely, out of fear that he won't be able to produce right away. If it took Dumervil basically 14 months to finally get back into the groove with 5 years experience, what makes you think Crick will be able to come in off an injury and blow up right away with 0 NFL experience?

brncs_fan
01-21-2012, 06:29 PM
Drafttek has us taking Kendall Wright in the second. I don't know a lot about him but his highlights look awesome.

pricejj
01-21-2012, 06:39 PM
Okay wait, so in another thread you say Crick won't go in the top 15, and in this thread you're saying he's the best DT available? Are you saying the crop is that poor? I mean, there's only been one draft where a DT didn't go in the top 15 in the past 15 years, and everything I've heard has said this crop of DTs is as good and deep as there ever was.

I see Still and Brockers going top 15, Worthy and Cox going top 25. I wouldn't be surprised to see Crick drop out of the first round entirely, out of fear that he won't be able to produce right away. If it took Dumervil basically 14 months to finally get back into the groove with 5 years experience, what makes you think Crick will be able to come in off an injury and blow up right away with 0 NFL experience?

Jared Crick would have been a top 15 pick, if he would have put up another year of good sack numbers. I still see him #13-#17 pick. If all the other NFL GM's pass up Crick until Belicheat picks him...thats on them.

Jerel Worthy had 30 tackles, 2.5 sacks...2nd round prospect, at best.

Elvis Dumervil injured his pectoral on 8/5/2010 and sat out the year. He started the first preseason game 8/11/2011. He was only out for 1 year...then injured his shoulder and sat out the first 3 games of this year. With a strong showing in the bench press at the combine, Crick can prove he is past the injury.

pricejj
01-21-2012, 06:41 PM
Drafttek has us taking Kendall Wright in the second. I don't know a lot about him but his highlights look awesome.

Kendall Wright is tight...has the speed that you want out of WR. He can definitely get open against man coverage unlike Decker, Royal, Willis. I didn't think he would be around at #25...but if he falls, he would be a good choice as well.

yerner
01-21-2012, 06:45 PM
JJ Crick is very interesting if he falls.

gyldenlove
01-21-2012, 07:17 PM
Really? Tebow got hurt after being sandwiched by Minkovich and a DT. Minkovich had 2 sacks in the game that Tebow didn't have a chance against. I agree Tebow needs to get much better in the pocket...but the Broncos is porous in pass blocking. The NE DL dominated against the Broncos OL in both the running and passing game (Broncos had 15 negative plays).

Tebow got hit more than any non-RB player this year, the fact he got hit on that play is random and irrelevant - most of the hits he suffered were on plays where he failed to get rid of the football in time or ran the ball up the middle.



Like I said, Carter wasn't a bad pick...as a SS. Carter did not have good interception numbers in college, doesn't have great speed, and got owned all year long (until he came through with the pick against Roethlisberger, then again against Brady). I don't mind him playing at SS (if he could show that he could guard TE's well), and will probably develop into a solid starter. Pro-Bowler? probably not. FS? I would rather have someone with more ball skills.


That is why we drafted Moore as a FS so Carter could be SS where he belongs.


A 3 year old retarded monkey could see that Orlando Franklin had slow feet in college. Here is a question for you: How could Franklin have been rated at RT...if he never played RT in his life? He wasn't. He was the highest rated OL player remaining when we picked him, and could be a Pro-Bowl LG. He will be moved from RT whenever Xanders and Fox get a replacement (maybe Ryan Harris), it is just a matter of time. I love Big O...at LG.


Did you really ask that? Do you really believe you need to see years worth of game tape to figure out how a player who has played LT and OG will be at RT?


They could have just picked Carter and not Moore. Steve Atwater played FS, was 6'2" 215 lbs., had MUCH better ball skills, and was way more physical. Moore will never amount to much because he is too slow. 4.4 forty speed at FS is what you want...4.6? not so much. Rahim Moore has never had a physical presence and was a serious reach (in a bad year for safeties). Xanders does not know how to play to the strengths of a draft. Markelle Martin, or Robert Lester, are better players in this years draft, and could be had at a lower price. You don't just pick a player out of desperation because he is the highest rated safety in that draft class.


Ed Reed is 5'11 and 200 pounds (ran 4.57 (slower than Moore)), Dawkins is 6'0 and 210 pounds, Polamalu is 5'10 and 205 pounds. There is nothing in Moore's meassurables that put him out of that group of first ballot hall of famers. When you don't have a starting safety you pick a starting safety or your career as a GM is going to be really short. It is great when you are with a good team and you can pick for strength, but bad teams do not get that luxury.


I don't know about you, but I would much rather the Broncos have picked Orakpo, Pouncey, or Bulaga, in that draft. Moreno, although a good college back, did not appear to be a good pro prospect at that time, and did not deserve the #12 overall pick.

I would have loved Bulaga or Pouncey (but you would have needed to convince them to enter the 2009 draft). Orakpo would have been a good choice but then again Orakpo didn't look like a good pro prosect at the time, he was a classic tweener with poor sack production playing in one of the strongest defenses in the league.


As long as Xanders keeps following the Mel Kiper guide to drafting...we will keep reaching. With a 1st round pick, you should be thinking Pro-Bowl.

That is why I want the Broncos to take Jared Crick. He has shown the production, and is a potential Pro-Bowler. You can't say the same for Still or Cox. Peter Konz, Lamar Miller, and Dont'a Hightower would be good picks as well. Stephon Gilmore as an emergency option.

If you care about college production then I don't see why you were unhappy with Moreno, he had great production.

houghtam
01-21-2012, 07:33 PM
Jared Crick would have been a top 15 pick, if he would have put up another year of good sack numbers. I still see him #13-#17 pick. If all the other NFL GM's pass up Crick until Belicheat picks him...thats on them.

Jerel Worthy had 30 tackles, 2.5 sacks...2nd round prospect, at best.

Elvis Dumervil injured his pectoral on 8/5/2010 and sat out the year. He started the first preseason game 8/11/2011. He was only out for 1 year...then injured his shoulder and sat out the first 3 games of this year. With a strong showing in the bench press at the combine, Crick can prove he is past the injury.

The last 4 years of defensive tackles taken in the first round, and their college stats.

Marcel Dareus - 33 tackles, 11 TFL, 4.5 sacks, #3 overall
Nick Fairley - 60 tackles, 24 TFL, 11.5 sacks, #13 overall
Corey Liuget - 63 tackles, 12.5 TFL, 4.5 sacks, #18 overall
Phil Taylor - 62 tackles, 7 TFL, 2 sacks, #21 overall
Muhammad Wilkerson - 70 tackles, 13 TFL, 9.5 sacks

Ndamukong Suh - 85 tackles, 20.5 TFL, 12 sacks, #2 overall
Gerald McCoy - 34 tackles, 15.5 TFL, 6 sacks, #3 overall
Dan Williams - 70 tackles, 9 TFL, 2.5 sacks, #26 overall
Jared Odrick - 43 tackles, 11 TFL, 7 sacks, #28 overall

BJ Raji - 42 tackles, 14 TFL 7.5 sacks, #9 overall
Peria Jerry - 49 tackles, 18 TFL, 7 sacks, #24 overall
Ziggy Hood - 62 tackles, 7 TFL, 5 sacks, #32 overall

Glenn Dorsey - 69 tackles, 12.5 TFL, 7 sacks, #5 overall
Sedrick Ellis - 58 tackles, 12.5 TFL, 8 sacks, #7 overall
Kentwan Ballmer - 59 tackles, 9.5 TFL, 3.5 sacks

Why the list? Because it clearly indicates that having a ton of sacks as a DT does not necessarily translate to being taken higher than players with fewer sacks.

The five we're talking about:

Devon Still - 55 tackles, 17 TFL, 4.5 sacks
Michael Brockers - 54 tackles, 10 TFL, 2 sacks
Fletcher Cox - 56 tackles, 14.5 TFL, 5 sacks
Jerel Worthy - 30 tackles, 10.5 TFL, 3.5 sacks
Jared Crick - 70 tackles, 14.5 TFL, 9.5 sacks (we'll take last year, since you know, he was out this year with a horrific injury)

As far as your comment about Worthy goes, I suppose Dareus, Liuget, Taylor, McCoy, Williams, and Ballmer were all second round talents since they put up near identical numbers? Man I feel sorry for those GMs for taking such reaches.

College sacks don't really mean a whole lot when it comes to being an NFL defensive tackle.

pricejj
01-21-2012, 07:57 PM
Tebow got hit more than any non-RB player this year, the fact he got hit on that play is random and irrelevant - most of the hits he suffered were on plays where he failed to get rid of the football in time or ran the ball up the middle.

Tebow holds onto the ball too long...he has to get better at that. But our OL is poor at pass protection, and Franklin is not a good RT.





That is why we drafted Moore as a FS so Carter could be SS where he belongs.

Then why is Carter playing FS?




Did you really ask that? Do you really believe you need to see years worth of game tape to figure out how a player who has played LT and OG will be at RT?

At Miami, Franklin switched from LG to LT due to emergency...his senior year he switched back to LG. I could tell from his college tape that he had slow feet and would be an awesome OG, but not a very good RT.


Ed Reed is 5'11 and 200 pounds (ran 4.57 (slower than Moore)), Dawkins is 6'0 and 210 pounds, Polamalu is 5'10 and 205 pounds. There is nothing in Moore's meassurables that put him out of that group of first ballot hall of famers. When you don't have a starting safety you pick a starting safety or your career as a GM is going to be really short. It is great when you are with a good team and you can pick for strength, but bad teams do not get that luxury.

Troy Polamalu runs a 4.4 forty and was an elite prospect at SS finishing with 278 tackles and 6 int's.

Ed Reed runs a 4.57 forty and was an elite prospect at FS finishing with 21 career int's (5 int's for TD).

I was exited about Rahim Moore coming into the year, and lets hope he develops. I didn't realize Ed Reed only ran a 4.57 forty...so hopefully Moore can be a Pro-Bowl safety someday too.



I would have loved Bulaga or Pouncey (but you would have needed to convince them to enter the 2009 draft). Orakpo would have been a good choice but then again Orakpo didn't look like a good pro prosect at the time, he was a classic tweener with poor sack production playing in one of the strongest defenses in the league.

Whoops, sorry about the Bulaga/Pouncey miscue. You are wrong about Orakpo. When McDaniel's came in...all we needed was to improve the defense, and specifically the pass rush. Orakpo had 11 sacks as a senior at Texas and was mocked to go as high as 4th in the draft...BTW Orakpo has had a stellar pro career.


If you care about college production then I don't see why you were unhappy with Moreno, he had great production.

He had a great Sophomore year, but only 1 pick as a Junior. I was high on Rahim at the start of the year, but he hasn't shown much. Hope he can be the guy we all think he can be.

Rascal
01-21-2012, 08:13 PM
2012 Shrine Game: A Broncos Wish List
Wednesday, January 18, 2012 2:35pm
By Cecil Lammey

Regular listeners know that every year I go on what I call 'The Ultimate Road Trip.' In January once the underclassmen have declared it officially kicks off 'Draft Season' and I travel to the three biggest college football all star games. I go to the Shrine Game, the Senior Bowl, and the All Star Classic (formerly Texas vs The Nation) each year and watch some of the nation's best position themselves in the NFL Draft. During the road trip I talk to various people within the scouting community like scouts, general managers, coaches, etc. It gives me great insight into what is going on in the draft world. During the regular season it's team vs team that is played out on the field. However, during draft season it's front office vs front office and sometimes the results take years to see.

I'm at the Shrine Game in Tampa Bay, FL now so I've compiled a list of five players I think the Broncos should be interested in. I've listed them below in order of preference.

1 - Josh Norman, Coastal Carolina, Cornerback - This kid has been the star of the Shrine Game in 2012. He's a big corner with good heigth, weight, and arm length. Norman has the ability to click and close on Wide Receivers after they've made their break. He is also very adept at baiting Quarterbacks into bad throws. He'll play off a WR to give the appearance that they're open. Then he'll break on the ball and get the interception. On Wednesday's practice he ended up with three INTs in the morning practice. Norman's draft stock also gets a boost because he can be relied on as a Punt Returner or Kick Returner because of his speed and change of direction ability. Round Drafted: 2

2 - Chase Ford, Miami University, Tight End - Ford is not as athletic as former Hurricanes (and current Saints) TE Jimmy Graham, but he is a weapon who can make plays downfield. Ford has a big frame and knows how to use his size to block defenders away from the football. He is a good threat to score in the red zone because of this ability. His hands are strong and he's shown the concentration to catch passes in traffic over the middle of the field. Round Drafted: 4

3 - Derrick Dennis, Temple, Offensive Guard - Dennis is a big, powerful player who knows how to re-direct defenders on the line of scrimmage. The Broncos are the best rushing team in the league and having a big body who can pull and get in front of rushing plays is a big need for Denver. Round Drafted: 5

4 - Alfred Morris, Florida Atlantic University, Running Back - Morris was one of the surprise players for me this week at the Shrine Game. On film he was a big, straight line back with a little wiggle. In person I've seen Morris look better in space and show the ability to make defenders miss in the hole. I like his no-nonsense running style, leg drive, and determination. John Fox loves to run the ball and needs more RBs who can grind it with the rock. Round Drafted: 6

5 - Micanor Regis, Miami University, Defensive Tackle - Regis is a big bodied D-Lineman who is a one-gap, one technique tackle. He's not a special player, but could work well in a rotation on the D-Line. Regis is strong, and has a low center of gravity which makes him difficult to move in the middle of the line. He's not a starter, but a solid motor guy who can make a team as a quality reserve player. Round Drafted: 7

If the Broncos add some of these players through the draft then it would greatly help their chances to improve in 2012. Next stop: Mobile, AL and the Senior Bowl.

barryr
01-21-2012, 08:21 PM
2012 Shrine Game: A Broncos Wish List
Wednesday, January 18, 2012 2:35pm
By Cecil Lammey

Regular listeners know that every year I go on what I call 'The Ultimate Road Trip.' In January once the underclassmen have declared it officially kicks off 'Draft Season' and I travel to the three biggest college football all star games. I go to the Shrine Game, the Senior Bowl, and the All Star Classic (formerly Texas vs The Nation) each year and watch some of the nation's best position themselves in the NFL Draft. During the road trip I talk to various people within the scouting community like scouts, general managers, coaches, etc. It gives me great insight into what is going on in the draft world. During the regular season it's team vs team that is played out on the field. However, during draft season it's front office vs front office and sometimes the results take years to see.

I'm at the Shrine Game in Tampa Bay, FL now so I've compiled a list of five players I think the Broncos should be interested in. I've listed them below in order of preference.

1 - Josh Norman, Coastal Carolina, Cornerback - This kid has been the star of the Shrine Game in 2012. He's a big corner with good heigth, weight, and arm length. Norman has the ability to click and close on Wide Receivers after they've made their break. He is also very adept at baiting Quarterbacks into bad throws. He'll play off a WR to give the appearance that they're open. Then he'll break on the ball and get the interception. On Wednesday's practice he ended up with three INTs in the morning practice. Norman's draft stock also gets a boost because he can be relied on as a Punt Returner or Kick Returner because of his speed and change of direction ability. Round Drafted: 2

2 - Chase Ford, Miami University, Tight End - Ford is not as athletic as former Hurricanes (and current Saints) TE Jimmy Graham, but he is a weapon who can make plays downfield. Ford has a big frame and knows how to use his size to block defenders away from the football. He is a good threat to score in the red zone because of this ability. His hands are strong and he's shown the concentration to catch passes in traffic over the middle of the field. Round Drafted: 4

3 - Derrick Dennis, Temple, Offensive Guard - Dennis is a big, powerful player who knows how to re-direct defenders on the line of scrimmage. The Broncos are the best rushing team in the league and having a big body who can pull and get in front of rushing plays is a big need for Denver. Round Drafted: 5

4 - Alfred Morris, Florida Atlantic University, Running Back - Morris was one of the surprise players for me this week at the Shrine Game. On film he was a big, straight line back with a little wiggle. In person I've seen Morris look better in space and show the ability to make defenders miss in the hole. I like his no-nonsense running style, leg drive, and determination. John Fox loves to run the ball and needs more RBs who can grind it with the rock. Round Drafted: 6

5 - Micanor Regis, Miami University, Defensive Tackle - Regis is a big bodied D-Lineman who is a one-gap, one technique tackle. He's not a special player, but could work well in a rotation on the D-Line. Regis is strong, and has a low center of gravity which makes him difficult to move in the middle of the line. He's not a starter, but a solid motor guy who can make a team as a quality reserve player. Round Drafted: 7

If the Broncos add some of these players through the draft then it would greatly help their chances to improve in 2012. Next stop: Mobile, AL and the Senior Bowl.

Every year, there are guys that jump out in these all star games and the combine, but the bottom line is what did they do while playing in real games that mattered? Many of these guys that seem to come out of nowhere do well in these types of environments, but can they play football in a structured scheme? Again, the tapes don't lie. These games and the combine are great to compare certain skills and speed/quickness with others, but at the end of the day, can they really play football? Many times the answer is no or else they would have been noticed long before.

pricejj
01-21-2012, 08:27 PM
The last 4 years of defensive tackles taken in the first round, and their college stats.

Marcel Dareus - 33 tackles, 11 TFL, 4.5 sacks, #3 overall

Dareus did that in a 3-4...pretty impressive, came out for the draft after just turning 21...elite size

Nick Fairley - 60 tackles, 24 TFL, 11.5 sacks, #13 overall

Elite prospect in a 4-3, with tremendous footspeed...character concerns, but will be a great pro.

Corey Liuget - 63 tackles, 12.5 TFL, 4.5 sacks, #18 overall

Liuget only recorded 19 tackles and 1 sack...dissapointing year in a 3-4 for the Chargers.

Phil Taylor - 62 tackles, 7 TFL, 2 sacks, #21 overall
Good year for the Browns with 59 tackles and 4 sacks...not Pro-Bowl by any stretch.

Muhammad Wilkerson - 70 tackles, 13 TFL, 9.5 sacks
Wilkerson finished with 49 tackles and 3 sacks for the Jets, which is decent. He played at Temple, so his sack numbers are a little bloated. I don't think he will be a Pro-Bowler.

Ndamukong Suh - 85 tackles, 20.5 TFL, 12 sacks, #2 overall
Elite Pro-Bowler with great college tackles and sacks...Crick isn't an athletic freak like Suh...but his numbers are similar in college

Gerald McCoy - 34 tackles, 15.5 TFL, 6 sacks, #3 overall
Underwhelming as a pro...with average college tackles and sacks
Dan Williams - 70 tackles, 9 TFL, 2.5 sacks, #26 overall
Sucks as a pro. Low college sacks.

Jared Odrick - 43 tackles, 11 TFL, 7 sacks, #28 overall
Decent year with 22 tackles, and 6 sacks. Good sacker in college, good sacker in pros.

BJ Raji - 42 tackles, 14 TFL 7.5 sacks, #9 overall
Had 6.5 sacks last year, and 3 sacks this year. Not bad for an NT in a 3-4.

Peria Jerry - 49 tackles, 18 TFL, 7 sacks, #24 overall
Hasn't had much impact yet in the NFL, may develop.

Ziggy Hood - 62 tackles, 7 TFL, 5 sacks, #32 overall

Will never make the Pro-Bowl...underwhelming pro.

Sorry, that's all I have the energy for tonight.


College sacks don't really mean a whole lot when it comes to being an NFL defensive tackle.

All the guys who had 6 sacks or less their last year in college are crap in the NFL (so far).

Will Crick be a Pro-Bowler? Not sure, but I think he will be more productive than either Cox, Still, or Brockers.

rugbythug
01-21-2012, 08:28 PM
Rex Burkhead is returning.

On the Crick arguement. Attitude wise, alone he is a JJ Watt/Kerrigan type. As far as talent AND motor, I really just don't see it. He's just a big mean looking white guy so people are high on him. Not a first round talen IMO.

As for the arguments against our drafts, I mostly agree with pricejj, Von being the exception. Ayers had a good year, but by all means is a bust. Slowshown is an epic bust. Quinn wasn't even mentioned in there, holy ***les what a ****ty pick that was, trading for alphonzo, just some epicly bad picks. Even Orlando Franklin and Raheem Moore is a serious ****-show looking at their first years. I don't think one year is a good estimate on Safetys, but for road-graders, its enough time to tell where thier ceiling is at, Franklin has damn near hit his.

Aside from Von, our best picks in awhile have been Erik Decker and Quinton Carter.

Are you 11in years old? Busts are Marcus nash and jarvis moss. Calling starting players busts because you dislike them is retarded.

houghtam
01-21-2012, 08:37 PM
All the guys who had 6 sacks or less their last year in college are crap in the NFL (so far).

Will Crick be a Pro-Bowler? Not sure, but I think he will be more productive than either Cox, Still, or Brockers.

The original argument wasn't about NFL production, it was about where Crick will be taken vis a vis the other DTs. higher # of sacks in college =/= being drafted higher than lower # of sacks in college.

Crick might sneak into the end of the first round.

pricejj
01-21-2012, 09:09 PM
The original argument wasn't about NFL production, it was about where Crick will be taken vis a vis the other DTs. higher # of sacks in college =/= being drafted higher than lower # of sacks in college.

Crick might sneak into the end of the first round.

I know Still and Cox are mocked higher than Crick...but like I said, it doesn't make sense.

Guys like Suh, Watt, Kerrigan...who had >9 sacks per year in college are studs in the NFL.

Guys like McCoy, Hood, Taylor, Liuget...who had 6 sacks or less per year in college are solid in the NFL, but nothing more.

I expect the same out of Still and Cox.

I bet you anyday that Crick will put up more production this year than Still or Cox. I would be surprised to see him still available at the Broncos pick. If he is, and the Broncos don't pick him, Belicheat will. Heck, the Steelers may even pick him at #24. It's pretty clear that picking all these DT's who have low sack numbers in the first round isn't paying off.

I want a Pro-Bowler at pick #25, Crick is the only DT available, who I think COULD make the Pro-Bow (except Coples).

houghtam
01-21-2012, 09:30 PM
I know Still and Cox are mocked higher than Crick...but like I said, it doesn't make sense.

Guys like Suh, Watt, Kerrigan...who had >9 sacks per year in college are studs in the NFL.

Guys like McCoy, Hood, Taylor, Liuget...who had 6 sacks or less per year in college are solid in the NFL, but nothing more.

I expect the same out of Still and Cox.

I bet you anyday that Crick will put up more production this year than Still or Cox. I would be surprised to see him still available at the Broncos pick. If he is, and the Broncos don't pick him, Belicheat will. Heck, the Steelers may even pick him at #24. It's pretty clear that picking all these DT's who have low sack numbers in the first round isn't paying off.

I want a Pro-Bowler at pick #25, Crick is the only DT available, who I think COULD make the Pro-Bow (except Coples).

Since when were sacks the only determining factor on whether a defensive tackle is good in the NFL? The starting interior linemen in the Pro Bowl this year averaged just over 4 sacks this season.

Archer81
01-21-2012, 11:44 PM
I'm kind of amused by the pro-bowler talk. Its like winning tallest midget or smartest person on the short bus award.

Probowlers are nice, but not necessary to build a champion-caliber team. and before I get a swarm of "you knows nothings about anythings" posts, I am not suggesting you dont need talent to win a title. You clearly do. But determining pro-bowlers in the draft...who cares? Does he produce for the team? Do we win?

That should be enough.

:Broncos:

houghtam
01-22-2012, 12:10 AM
I'm kind of amused by the pro-bowler talk. Its like winning tallest midget or smartest person on the short bus award.

Probowlers are nice, but not necessary to build a champion-caliber team. and before I get a swarm of "you knows nothings about anythings" posts, I am not suggesting you dont need talent to win a title. You clearly do. But determining pro-bowlers in the draft...who cares? Does he produce for the team? Do we win?

That should be enough.

:Broncos:

Dawkins and Clady made the Pro Bowl this year. I think that pretty much refutes any Pro Bowl = important arguments. As if it needed refuting.

pricejj
01-22-2012, 01:14 AM
Since when were sacks the only determining factor on whether a defensive tackle is good in the NFL? The starting interior linemen in the Pro Bowl this year averaged just over 4 sacks this season.

You're right, sacks aren't the only determining factor...tackles are very important as well, and Crick gets a lot of them (70 tackles twice).

AFC DT Pro-Bowl 2012:

Haloti Ngata - 64 tackles, 5 sacks (awesome for playing in a 3-4, can't ask for much more than that)

Vince Wilfork - 52 tackles, 3.5 sacks (awesome as a NT in a 3-4...Broncos NT is Bunkley, Crick would play UT)

Richard Seymour - 29 tackles, 6 sacks (crap year, but had decent sack numbers...his sacks and reputation are why he got in)

NFC DT Pro-Bowl 2012:

Justin Smith - 58 tackles, 7.5 sacks (awesome for playing DE in a 3-4, even better than Ngata)

Jay Ratliffe - 38 tackles, 2.0 sacks (NT in a 3-4, guessing he got in because he's a Cowboy)

B.J. Raji - 22 tackles, 3 sacks (NT in a 3-4, not a very good year)


The only 4-3 UT who made the 2011 Pro-Bowl was Richard Seymour (who got in mainly based on reputation, but had a decent year with 6 sacks). You can't compare 3-4 lineman sack numbers with 4-3 UT's. In a 3-4, the sacks come mainly from the OLB's. In a 4-3, the sacks come mainly from the RDE and the UT. The Broncos run a 4-3, and we need a sacking, penetrating UT...enter Jared Crick.

pricejj
01-22-2012, 01:44 AM
I'm kind of amused by the pro-bowler talk. Its like winning tallest midget or smartest person on the short bus award.

Probowlers are nice, but not necessary to build a champion-caliber team. and before I get a swarm of "you knows nothings about anythings" posts, I am not suggesting you dont need talent to win a title. You clearly do. But determining pro-bowlers in the draft...who cares? Does he produce for the team? Do we win?

That should be enough.

:Broncos:

How do you determine if you have a successful draft? This is how I determine if you have a successful draft:

Picks #1-#10 - HOFer
Picks #11-#32 - Pro Bowler (at least once in their career)
Picks #33-#64 - Solid starter
(of course if you find Pro Bowlers or Solid starters in later rounds its a big bonus...but you can't miss on Pro Bowlers and Solid starters in the 1st and 2nd rounds)

To have a Superbowl team, I believe you have to have a Pro Bowler (or potential Pro Bowler) at every position. If you have a guy who is not a potential Pro Bowler...he is replaceable. Let's look at the Broncos:

Offense:
Demaryius Thomas - could make the Pro Bowl in 2012
Ryan Clady - Pro Bowl
Zane Beadles - X (replaceable)
J.D. Walton - X (replaceable)
Chris Kuper - possiblity of making a Pro Bowl
Orlando Franklin - possibility of making a Pro Bowl at LG
Daniel Fells - X (replaceable)
Eric Decker - X (replaceable)
Tim Tebow - Pro Bowl
Willis McGahee - Pro Bowl
Spencer Larsen - X (replaceable)

Zane Beadles, J.D. Walton, Daniel Fells, Eric Decker, and Spencer Larsen are all replaceable players on the Broncos roster, who I don't see making the Pro Bowl...ever. For the Broncos to win the Super Bowl, most, if not all of those players will need to be replaced in the starting lineup.

Defense:
Andre Goodman - replaceable, but I like him as a solid starter
Elvis Dumervil - Pro Bowl
Marcus Thomas - X (replaceable)
Brodrick Bunkley - replaceable, but I like him as a solid starter
Robert Ayers - replaceable, but I like him as a solid starter
Champ Bailey - Pro Bowl
D.J. Williams - Pro Bowl
Joe Mays - X (replaceable)
Von Miller - Pro Bowl
Brian Dawkins - Pro Bowl
Quinton Carter - replaceable, needs another year to see if he can be solid starter at SS.

Joe Mays, and Marcus Thomas are replaceable players on the Broncos roster, who I don't see making the Pro Bowl...ever. They will probably have to replaced in the starting lineup for the Broncos to win the Super Bowl.

The Broncos need to find suitable replacements for two of the guys in RED, with their 1st and 2nd round draft picks (would be nice to find a bigger threat at fullback somewhere later in the draft, as well).



Now take a look at the Patriots roster...you will see Pro Bowlers at every position, except in the Defensive backfield. Belicheat has been drafting CB's and Safeties in the 1st and 2nd round every year, hoping to fix that...but hasn't yet. The Patriots are a team with few holes, who has Pro Bowl talent at almost every position...they have a great chance at winning the Super Bowl.

pricejj
01-22-2012, 02:03 AM
Who could be possible 1st round draft pick players at #25 overall to replace the Broncos non Pro-Bowl starters?

Offense:
Eric Decker - Kendall Wright
Daniel Fells - Coby Fleener, or D'wayne Allen
Spencer Larsen - never use 1st round pick on a fullback
Zane Beadles - Zebrie Sanders, or Mike Adams @ RT (move Franklin to LG)
J.D. Walton - Peter Konz
1B Running Back - Lamar Miller

Defense:
Marcus Thomas - Jared Crick
Joe Mays - Dont'a Hightower, or Luke Kuechly

I would be happy with any of these picks. But I think UT is the most pressing need. I also think Jared Crick has the best chance at making the Pro Bowl (next to Peter Konz, who would be a great pick).

You could also upgrade (but not as pressing):
Andre Goodman - Stephon Gilmore
Brodrick Bunkley - Dontari Poe (much more pressing needs)
Robert Ayers - Courtney Upshaw, Whitney Mercilus
Safety - Mark Barron

Archer81
01-22-2012, 02:53 AM
To have a Superbowl team, I believe you have to have a Pro Bowler (or potential Pro Bowler) at every position. If you have a guy who is not a potential Pro Bowler...he is replaceable. Let's look at the Broncos...


We disagree on the bolded. Too many teams have won superbowls or been to superbowls lacking "probowl" talent at every position. So I am asking for clarification. Do you mean a probowler at all 22 spots, or do you mean a probowler at every level of offense, defense and special teams?

I think it is impossible to build and keep a roster of 22 probowl players. That's nearly Maddenesque. What I believe it takes to field a championship team is to have a dominant unit (offense or defense) and then have an average to good counter part unit. The 1997 Broncos (offense), the 1998 Broncos (offense) 1999 Rams (offense), 2000 Ravens (defense), 2001 Patriots (luck), 2002 Bucs (defense), 2005 Steelers (defense), 2006 Colts (offense), 2008 Steelers (defense), 2009 Saints (offense), 2010 Packers (offense) had a dominant unit, and played well enough on the other side of the ball to not lose games.

The key is to find talent for the schemes you run, let them develop and try and get it done on sundays. Like I said earlier, probowls are nice but not necessary to win a championship.

:Broncos:

pricejj
01-22-2012, 03:52 AM
We disagree on the bolded. Too many teams have won superbowls or been to superbowls lacking "probowl" talent at every position. So I am asking for clarification. Do you mean a probowler at all 22 spots, or do you mean a probowler at every level of offense, defense and special teams?

I think it is impossible to build and keep a roster of 22 probowl players. That's nearly Maddenesque. What I believe it takes to field a championship team is to have a dominant unit (offense or defense) and then have an average to good counter part unit. The 1997 Broncos (offense), the 1998 Broncos (offense) 1999 Rams (offense), 2000 Ravens (defense), 2001 Patriots (luck), 2002 Bucs (defense), 2005 Steelers (defense), 2006 Colts (offense), 2008 Steelers (defense), 2009 Saints (offense), 2010 Packers (offense) had a dominant unit, and played well enough on the other side of the ball to not lose games.

The key is to find talent for the schemes you run, let them develop and try and get it done on sundays. Like I said earlier, probowls are nice but not necessary to win a championship.

:Broncos:


I am analyzing 2 teams to show a fairly accurate cross-section of Pro Bowlers on Super Bowl teams:

1997 Broncos:

OFFENSE
Ed McCaffrey - WR - 1x Pro Bowl
Gary Zimmerman - LT - HOFer
Mark Schlereth - LG - 2x Pro Bowl
Tom Nalen - C - 5x Pro Bowl
Brian Habib - RG - Solid starter
Tony Jones - RT - 1x Pro Bowl
Shannon Sharpe - TE - HOFer
Rod Smith - WR - 3x Pro Bowl
John Elway - QB - Hofer
Terrell Davis - RB - 3x Pro Bowl
Howard Griffith - FB - Solid starter (not sure how Griffith never made the Pro Bowl)
DEFENSE
Neil Smith - LE - 6x Pro Bowl
Keith Traylor - LDT - Solid starter
Maa Tanuvasa - RDT - Solid starter (led Broncos in sacks)
Alfred Williams - RE - 1x Pro Bowl
John Mobley - OLB - 1x All Pro
Allen Aldridge - MLB - sub-par starter
Bill Romanowski - ROLB - 2x Pro Bowl
[COLOR="red"]Ray Crockett - LCB - Solid starter[/COLOR
]Darrien Gordon - RCB - 4x All Pro
Tyrone Braxton - SS - 1x Pro Bowl
Steve Atwater - FS - 8x Pro Bowl

16 of 22 Pro Bowlers
5 of 22 Solid Starters
1 of 22 Sub-par Starter

Not everybody was a Pro Bowler...but Griffith, Crocket, Tanavasa, and Traylor were considered at some point I'm sure.

pricejj
01-22-2012, 04:23 AM
2002 Bucs:

OFFENSE
Keyshawn Johnson WR - 3x Pro Bowl
Roman Oben LT - Solid Starter
Kerry Jenkins LG - Starter
Jeff Christy C - 3x Pro Bowl
Casey Coleman RG - Solid Starter (underrated) Kenyatta Walker RT - Solid Starter (#14 overall draft pick)Ken Dilger TE - 1x Pro Bowl
Keenan McCardell WR - 2x Pro Bowl
Brad Johnson QB - 2x Pro Bowl
Michael Pittman RB - Solid Starter
Mike Alstott FB - 6x Pro Bowl
DEFENSE
Greg Spires LE - Solid Starter
Warren Sapp LDT - HOFer
Chartric Darby RDT - Sub-par Starter
Simeon Rice RE - 4x All-Pro
Derrick Brooks OLB - HOFer
Shelton Quarles MLB - 1x Pro Bowl
Dwight Smith ROLB - Solid Starter (2 pick six in Super Bowl)
Brian Kelly LCB - Solid Starter (8 int in 2002 tied for league lead)Ronde Barber RCB - 5x Pro Bowl
John Lynch SS - HOFer
Dexter Jackson FS - Super Bowl MVP

12 of 22 Pro Bowlers
8 of 22 Solid Starters (4 or 5 guys had a great year/career, but weren't selected to Pro Bowl)
2 of 22 Sub-Par Starters

pricejj
01-22-2012, 04:45 AM
2011 Broncos:

8 of 22 Pro Bowlers
10 Solid Starters
4 Sub-Par Starters

By my calculations, we need at least 4 more Pro Bowlers, and 2 less Sub-Par Starters. You can't win a Super Bowl with just a "solid" team. We are going to have to accumulate more Pro Bowlers...before our current Pro Bowlers retire.

We could do it in one year:

1. Demaryius could make Pro Bowl in 2013
2, Move Orlando Franklin inside to LG, so he can make a Pro Bowl soon
3. Draft Elite talent in 1st round (Konz, Miller, Crick, Wright, Hightower, or Fleener).
4. Sign a Pro Bowler in Free Agency

!Booya!

brncs_fan
01-22-2012, 07:01 AM
Kendall Wright is tight...has the speed that you want out of WR. He can definitely get open against man coverage unlike Decker, Royal, Willis. I didn't think he would be around at #25...but if he falls, he would be a good choice as well.

I have see him anywhere from #13 overall to our second round pick.

Bronco Rob
01-22-2012, 07:48 AM
After a 1-4 start, the Denver Broncos put some excitement back into their game and managed to win the AFC West. After beating the Steelers in a playoff upset, they crashed and burned against the Patriots, showing how far they have to go to become an elite team in 2012.


Can they do it? They have a solid core, a winning quarterback, good coaching and led the NFL in rushing. But they need help.


What are the Broncos' top needs in 2012?


1. Strong Safety - This need was exposed in the playoffs. Pro Bowler Brian Dawkins is an outstanding leader in the secondary who keeps everybody lined up in the right position. His play was sorely missed in the playoffs due to a serious neck injury and he is likely to retire.

What the Broncos really need is a hard-hitting strong safety to replace Dawkins. Expect this need to be addressed in the first or second round of the 2012 draft if they can’t get a quality free agent.


2. Backup Quarterback - Tim Tebow and practice squad player Adam Weber are the only quarterbacks under contract for 2012. Free-agent backup Brady Quinn is likely to go elsewhere, looking for a starting job.

The Broncos are committed to Tebow but need a solid backup in free agency or the draft. Expect a second or mid-round pick to be used here. They could also trade up if the right quarterback is available, preferably one who could also run the option.


3. Running Back - The Broncos have a strong starter in Willis McGahee and Knowshon Moreno returns in 2012 from injured reserve. But they need a change of pace back with game-breaking speed. Because of their commitment to the ground game, they will draft a least one running back and probably more. They are also likely to bring in one or more free agents.

A third-down back with good hands and elusive speed would be ideal.


4. Receiver - This was one of the Broncos' deepest positions, but they traded acrobatic Brandon Loyd to St. Louis midway through the season. And 2011 starter Eddie Royal, who says he wants to stay with the Broncos, is a free agent.

Demaryius Thomas is a potential No. 1 receiver and Eric Decker is a solid No. 2Matthew Willis adds depth, but if Royal isn’t re-signed they need a slot receiver. The Broncos will draft at least one receiver and bring in one or more free agents.


5. Dominant Defensive Tackle - The Broncos have good depth at defensive tackle. Starters Marcus Thomas (now a free agent) and Brodrick Bunkley are fairly stout at the point of attack. Ty Warren and Kevin Vickerson, the projected starters in training camp, return from injured reserve in 2012. Ryan McBean is a solid backup who played in all 16 games in 2011.

What the Broncos do not have, however, is a dominant inside lineman to penetrate and create pressure up the middle. This need may go unfilled as there are more pressing needs for 2012.



If the Broncos fill their most pressing needs, they will surely contend for the AFC West Division Title in 2012 and could be dangerous in the playoffs.



http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1033834-denver-broncos-top-five-draft-and-free-agent-needs-for-2012

Bronco Rob
01-22-2012, 08:07 AM
http://denver.sbnation.com/denver-broncos/2012/1/22/2725095/2012-nfl-mock-draft-kendall-wright-baylor-denver-broncos

houghtam
01-22-2012, 10:37 AM
We disagree on the bolded. Too many teams have won superbowls or been to superbowls lacking "probowl" talent at every position. So I am asking for clarification. Do you mean a probowler at all 22 spots, or do you mean a probowler at every level of offense, defense and special teams?

I think it is impossible to build and keep a roster of 22 probowl players. That's nearly Maddenesque. What I believe it takes to field a championship team is to have a dominant unit (offense or defense) and then have an average to good counter part unit. The 1997 Broncos (offense), the 1998 Broncos (offense) 1999 Rams (offense), 2000 Ravens (defense), 2001 Patriots (luck), 2002 Bucs (defense), 2005 Steelers (defense), 2006 Colts (offense), 2008 Steelers (defense), 2009 Saints (offense), 2010 Packers (offense) had a dominant unit, and played well enough on the other side of the ball to not lose games.

The key is to find talent for the schemes you run, let them develop and try and get it done on sundays. Like I said earlier, probowls are nice but not necessary to win a championship.

:Broncos:

::)

Yeah, this is about the biggest load of BS I've ever read. I mean, MacGruder and company are full of it but they're trolls. This is just someone spewing BS like the Play Doh Fun Factory.

So if I have a player on my team who made the Pro Bowl 5 years ago but hasn't since, that's supposed to mean something?

Pro Bowls don't determine jack. It's a popularity contest. The fact that Clady and Dawkins were chosen this year (not to mention decades of snubs of more deserving players for more popular players) discredits the Pro Bowl as a determining factor on whether a player is good.

Chris, you're right. You find the right scheme, find the right players who fit your scheme, avoid the injury bug, and run the ball and/or stop the run.

HAT
01-22-2012, 11:16 AM
JJ is really channeling his inner Alpha Sierra up in this thread.

:thumbs:

Archer81
01-22-2012, 11:26 AM
2011 Broncos:

8 of 22 Pro Bowlers
10 Solid Starters
4 Sub-Par Starters

By my calculations, we need at least 4 more Pro Bowlers, and 2 less Sub-Par Starters. You can't win a Super Bowl with just a "solid" team. We are going to have to accumulate more Pro Bowlers...before our current Pro Bowlers retire.

We could do it in one year:

1. Demaryius could make Pro Bowl in 2013
2, Move Orlando Franklin inside to LG, so he can make a Pro Bowl soon
3. Draft Elite talent in 1st round (Konz, Miller, Crick, Wright, Hightower, or Fleener).
4. Sign a Pro Bowler in Free Agency

!Booya!


...how are those rabbits, lennie?


:Broncos:

CEH
01-22-2012, 11:34 AM
2011 Broncos:

8 of 22 Pro Bowlers
10 Solid Starters
4 Sub-Par Starters

By my calculations, we need at least 4 more Pro Bowlers, and 2 less Sub-Par Starters. You can't win a Super Bowl with just a "solid" team. We are going to have to accumulate more Pro Bowlers...before our current Pro Bowlers retire.

We could do it in one year:

1. Demaryius could make Pro Bowl in 2013
2, Move Orlando Franklin inside to LG, so he can make a Pro Bowl soon
3. Draft Elite talent in 1st round (Konz, Miller, Crick, Wright, Hightower, or Fleener).
4. Sign a Pro Bowler in Free Agency

!Booya!

Some team this year is going to win the Super Bowl with a max 8 Pro Bowlers. A team can't try to aquire 12 Pro Bowlers as a goal. It's unrealistic and unnecessary. What we need is a new Pro Bowler maybe every other year and a couple solid starters out of every draft

Franklin will be an All Pro at RT next year. This was his rookie year. He will take the next step next year at RT

houghtam
01-22-2012, 11:38 AM
Some team this year is going to win the Super Bowl with a max 8 Pro Bowlers. A team can't try to aquire 12 Pro Bowlers as a goal. It's unrealistic and unnecessary. What we need is a new Pro Bowler maybe every other year and a couple solid starters out of every draft

Franklin will be an All Pro at RT next year. This was his rookie year. He will take the next step next year at RT

The Rams won the Super Bowl in 1999 with 8 Pro Bowlers. The Eagles went 8-8 this year with 8 Pro Bowlers. It's the system, not the number of Pro Bowlers you have.

pricejj
01-22-2012, 09:28 PM
::)

Yeah, this is about the biggest load of BS I've ever read. I mean, MacGruder and company are full of it but they're trolls. This is just someone spewing BS like the Play Doh Fun Factory.

So if I have a player on my team who made the Pro Bowl 5 years ago but hasn't since, that's supposed to mean something?

Pro Bowls don't determine jack. It's a popularity contest. The fact that Clady and Dawkins were chosen this year (not to mention decades of snubs of more deserving players for more popular players) discredits the Pro Bowl as a determining factor on whether a player is good.

Chris, you're right. You find the right scheme, find the right players who fit your scheme, avoid the injury bug, and run the ball and/or stop the run.


You must be smoking rocks if you think a team can win the Super Bowl without elite talent. Whether or not a player makes the Pro Bowl in his career, is the most effective gauge I can think of to judge whether a player has elite talent. If you know any other ways to judge elite talent, that don't involve a CRAY super-computer, I'm all ears.

D.J. Williams made the Pro Bowl in 2009. He can now be considered to have Pro Bowl talent. Is he going to make the Pro Bowl every year? NO. But he has what it takes to play at an elite level.

It's no secret that the most talented team wins. The 2011-2012 New England Patriots have 12 Pro Bowlers starting for them, and are going to the Super Bowl.

If I see a starting player that doesn't have the talent to make a Pro Bowl (whether or not he gets voted in), that is a player I target to replace.

If you want to be the Super Bowl Champions, you have to have the best players.

pricejj
01-22-2012, 09:41 PM
Franklin will be an All Pro at RT next year. This was his rookie year. He will take the next step next year at RT

Nate Solder disagrees...

iforgotmypassword
01-22-2012, 09:42 PM
Konz, might new fav. first rounder for us ahead of Hightower... wonder how many times that will change?

pricejj
01-22-2012, 09:44 PM
Konz, might new fav. first rounder for us ahead of Hightower... wonder how many times that will change?

Konz for sure, if he's there. Dude will be an elite NFL player for a LONG time.

houghtam
01-22-2012, 10:03 PM
You must be smoking rocks if you think a team can win the Super Bowl without elite talent. Whether or not a player makes the Pro Bowl in his career, is the most effective gauge I can think of to judge whether a player has elite talent. If you know any other ways to judge elite talent, that don't involve a CRAY super-computer, I'm all ears.

D.J. Williams made the Pro Bowl in 2009. He can now be considered to have Pro Bowl talent. Is he going to make the Pro Bowl every year? NO. But he has what it takes to play at an elite level.

It's no secret that the most talented team wins. The 2011-2012 New England Patriots have 12 Pro Bowlers starting for them, and are going to the Super Bowl.

If I see a starting player that doesn't have the talent to make a Pro Bowl (whether or not he gets voted in), that is a player I target to replace.

If you want to be the Super Bowl Champions, you have to have the best players.

Perfect example of a system SB victory are the 99 Rams. 8 Pro Bowlers.

pricejj
01-22-2012, 11:06 PM
1999 Rams/Titans:

Torry Holt WR Kevin Dyson
Orlando Pace LT Brad Hopkins
Tom Nütten LG Bruce Matthews
Mike Gruttadauria C Kevin Long
Adam Timmerman RG Benji Olson
Fred Miller RT Jon Runyan
Roland Williams TE Frank Wycheck
Isaac Bruce WR Isaac Byrd
Kurt Warner QB Steve McNair
Marshall Faulk RB Eddie George
Robert Holcombe FB TE Jackie Harris
DEFENSE
Kevin Carter LE Jevon Kearse
Ray Agnew LDT Josh Evans
D'Marco Farr RDT Jason Fisk
Grant Wistrom RE Kenny Holmes //Wistrom had 11 sacks in 2000
Mike Jones OLB Eddie Robinson
London Fletcher MLB Barron Wortham
Todd Collins ROLB Joe Bowden
Todd Lyght LCB Denard Walker
Dexter McCleon RCB Samari Rolle
Billy Jenkins SS Blaine Bishop
Keith Lyle FS Anthony Dorsett //Lyle led NFL with 9 int's in 1996

Rams had 10 Pro Bowlers (with 2 others showing elite talent).
Titans had 10 Pro Bowlers.

What I'm trying to say, is you have to have just as much (or more) talent than the team you are facing, to beat them.

In the 2011-2012 Broncos case, they lost to a team (NE) with 12 Pro Bowlers, who clearly has significantly more talent. For the Broncos to win the Super Bowl, they will have to add more elite talent.

Baba Booey
01-23-2012, 12:04 AM
The more I hear about this Josh Norman character, the more I like. If we could snag him in the 3rd, that would be lovely.

As for the first and second rounds, my wish list includes Still/Worthy/Konz and D. Wilson/O. Charles/C. Fleener/K. Wright/D. Allen.

Either way, I can't wait to see us add some more talent both in Free Agency and in the draft.

Archer81
01-23-2012, 12:40 AM
You must be smoking rocks if you think a team can win the Super Bowl without elite talent. Whether or not a player makes the Pro Bowl in his career, is the most effective gauge I can think of to judge whether a player has elite talent. If you know any other ways to judge elite talent, that don't involve a CRAY super-computer, I'm all ears.

D.J. Williams made the Pro Bowl in 2009. He can now be considered to have Pro Bowl talent. Is he going to make the Pro Bowl every year? NO. But he has what it takes to play at an elite level.

It's no secret that the most talented team wins. The 2011-2012 New England Patriots have 12 Pro Bowlers starting for them, and are going to the Super Bowl.

If I see a starting player that doesn't have the talent to make a Pro Bowl (whether or not he gets voted in), that is a player I target to replace.

If you want to be the Super Bowl Champions, you have to have the best players.


You keep equating elite talent with probowl. The probowl is like being elected prom king or queen. It has no bearing on whether or not a player can play. And no one is arguing that Denver should not acquire elite talent. Stop getting hung up on a useless accolade.

:Broncos:

maher_tyler
01-23-2012, 12:45 AM
All i know is we better be drafting a DT or maybe a MLB with our first pick. If anything was obvious in today's games, it was all 4 had elite play from there front 7..Wilfork was in all out beast mode as well as Justin Smith and a couple of others!! I'd love to see that type of nastiness back in Denver!!

maher_tyler
01-23-2012, 12:47 AM
You keep equating elite talent with probowl. The probowl is like being elected prom king or queen. It has no bearing on whether or not a player can play. And no one is arguing that Denver should not acquire elite talent. Stop getting hung up on a useless accolade.

:Broncos:

Well usually if your team is riddled with Pro Bowlers, odds are, you're in the playoffs year in and year out.

Archer81
01-23-2012, 12:55 AM
Well usually if your team is riddled with Pro Bowlers, odds are, you're in the playoffs year in and year out.


Usually. But a probowl nod does not always mean that player is a cornerstone for their team. Brian Griese and Brandon Lloyd will never be considered elite players, both made probowls. Both were/are journeyman players.

I could care less if a Bronco makes the probowl. Did he make plays to help the Broncos, and not the AFC team, win. That's all that matters at the end of the day.

You also have examples of teams going out to specifically get "probowl players" and falling flat. The Redskins and Eagles obvious examples.

:Broncos:

Baba Booey
01-23-2012, 01:56 AM
Russell Wilson, please.

BroncoLover
01-23-2012, 04:16 AM
1999 Rams/Titans:

Torry Holt WR Kevin Dyson
Orlando Pace LT Brad Hopkins
Tom Nütten LG Bruce Matthews
Mike Gruttadauria C Kevin Long
Adam Timmerman RG Benji Olson
Fred Miller RT Jon Runyan
Roland Williams TE Frank Wycheck
Isaac Bruce WR Isaac Byrd
Kurt Warner QB Steve McNair
Marshall Faulk RB Eddie George
Robert Holcombe FB TE Jackie Harris
DEFENSE
Kevin Carter LE Jevon Kearse
Ray Agnew LDT Josh Evans
D'Marco Farr RDT Jason Fisk
Grant Wistrom RE Kenny Holmes //Wistrom had 11 sacks in 2000
Mike Jones OLB Eddie Robinson
London Fletcher MLB Barron Wortham
Todd Collins ROLB Joe Bowden
Todd Lyght LCB Denard Walker
Dexter McCleon RCB Samari Rolle
Billy Jenkins SS Blaine Bishop
Keith Lyle FS Anthony Dorsett //Lyle led NFL with 9 int's in 1996

Rams had 10 Pro Bowlers (with 2 others showing elite talent).
Titans had 10 Pro Bowlers.

What I'm trying to say, is you have to have just as much (or more) talent than the team you are facing, to beat them.

In the 2011-2012 Broncos case, they lost to a team (NE) with 12 Pro Bowlers, who clearly has significantly more talent. For the Broncos to win the Super Bowl, they will have to add more elite talent.

I wish i knew this, i would have asked elway to sign David Garrad and Terrel Owens before the season started... so we could have had few more pro bowlers and i am sure we would have been in SuperBowl Playing Gaints. Hilarious! Hilarious!

Also can you add on and say if they should be selected to probowl by coaches/media or alternates are still elite talent as well. Please suggest in a few words your elite thoughts. I will send you to HOF as a critic. :strong:

Drek
01-23-2012, 04:33 AM
Usually. But a probowl nod does not always mean that player is a cornerstone for their team. Brian Griese and Brandon Lloyd will never be considered elite players, both made probowls. Both were/are journeyman players.

I could care less if a Bronco makes the probowl. Did he make plays to help the Broncos, and not the AFC team, win. That's all that matters at the end of the day.

You also have examples of teams going out to specifically get "probowl players" and falling flat. The Redskins and Eagles obvious examples.

:Broncos:

When Griese made the pro bowl he was playing in a system that made him look like a pro bowler. Lloyd actually does have pro bowl level talent when he's committed to showing it and again, put in the right system.

FA dick ups when pursuing "pro bowl players" comes from the signing team not first asking themselves "will he be a pro bowler in our system?"

Pricejj is right that this team does need a significant infusion of talent before we can be considered a regular contender. But he also underestimates how much talent is likely on the roster just waiting to be coached up and put in the right system. Guys like Franklin, Moore, Irving, Beadles, Walton, and Decker are young and have a lot of room for growth.

What our goal should be is to have at least one elite level player in each unit, and have a starting rotation full of average to above average starters with a bench with similar talent that runs at least one man deep.

To that end I see our needs as the following:
QB - good at the starting spot, need a backup who can keep running the same system.

RB - good at the starting spot, need a backup who can keep running the power game like McGahee. Need Moreno healthy as a change of pace #2 or someone with a similar skill set.

WR - Thomas has real potential, as does Decker. Need an option to likely replace Royal.

TE - Julius Thomas and Virgil Green have potential, Fells should be retained as the solid stop gap while they grow. Unless a great young TE falls in our laps during the draft we should roll with what we've got here.

OT - Clady should hopefully rebound with a real off-season of conditioning from his knee injury. Franklin as good potential. We need depth here.

OG/C - Kuper is turning into an elite RG. Walton and Beadles both have potential but are below average. Ideal world you replace Beadles with an above average or better starter (say Carl Nicks, who is borderline elite and likely available) and turn Beadles into the backup at all five OL positions, answering our depth issue.

DE - Doom can be an elite pass rusher, Ayers is a solid all around starter with potential. We need depth here, but our starters are solid.

DT - Bunkley should be resigned, Warren can't be counted on, Vickerson is nothing special. I'm indifferent on bringing Thomas back. This unit is a bunch of average (Bunkley) or worse (McBean, Unrein) types. We need more average guys and at least one real difference maker here. No young depth to speak of either. We need to finally invest draft picks at DT and we need to team it up with some FA signings.

LB - Miller is elite, DJ is above average with flashes of better than that. Mays is below average, so we need to replace him with an average player. Woodyard is an acceptable backup. Irving has potential but if we could sign an instant upgrade over Mays (say Dan Connor) it'd be worth it.

S - Carter looks to have the makings of a solid starter but probably won't end up an elite player. Moore has sky high potential if he can turn it around after a bad rookie season. Bruton isn't a bad #3 safety. With Dawkins we had above average to near elite talent here and our D was worlds better thanks to it. We need a legitimate path to replacing that. So either go after Goldson/Landry or bet on Moore and make sure you've got a safety net not named Bruton if he fails.

CB - Champ is still elite. Harris is a solid nickel. We need a solid #2 and some elite potential for when Champ declines/retires. That can't be the same guy because then we've got another hole to fill. Sign a mid-20's solid #2 vet, draft a CB with elite potential early.

Bronco Rob
01-23-2012, 08:05 AM
<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/d7achvXsy3Q" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


:thumbs:

houghtam
01-23-2012, 08:30 AM
When Griese made the pro bowl he was playing in a system that made him look like a pro bowler. Lloyd actually does have pro bowl level talent when he's committed to showing it and again, put in the right system.

FA dick ups when pursuing "pro bowl players" comes from the signing team not first asking themselves "will he be a pro bowler in our system?"

Pricejj is right that this team does need a significant infusion of talent before we can be considered a regular contender. But he also underestimates how much talent is likely on the roster just waiting to be coached up and put in the right system. Guys like Franklin, Moore, Irving, Beadles, Walton, and Decker are young and have a lot of room for growth.

What our goal should be is to have at least one elite level player in each unit, and have a starting rotation full of average to above average starters with a bench with similar talent that runs at least one man deep.

To that end I see our needs as the following:
QB - good at the starting spot, need a backup who can keep running the same system.

RB - good at the starting spot, need a backup who can keep running the power game like McGahee. Need Moreno healthy as a change of pace #2 or someone with a similar skill set.

WR - Thomas has real potential, as does Decker. Need an option to likely replace Royal.

TE - Julius Thomas and Virgil Green have potential, Fells should be retained as the solid stop gap while they grow. Unless a great young TE falls in our laps during the draft we should roll with what we've got here.

OT - Clady should hopefully rebound with a real off-season of conditioning from his knee injury. Franklin as good potential. We need depth here.

OG/C - Kuper is turning into an elite RG. Walton and Beadles both have potential but are below average. Ideal world you replace Beadles with an above average or better starter (say Carl Nicks, who is borderline elite and likely available) and turn Beadles into the backup at all five OL positions, answering our depth issue.

DE - Doom can be an elite pass rusher, Ayers is a solid all around starter with potential. We need depth here, but our starters are solid.

DT - Bunkley should be resigned, Warren can't be counted on, Vickerson is nothing special. I'm indifferent on bringing Thomas back. This unit is a bunch of average (Bunkley) or worse (McBean, Unrein) types. We need more average guys and at least one real difference maker here. No young depth to speak of either. We need to finally invest draft picks at DT and we need to team it up with some FA signings.

LB - Miller is elite, DJ is above average with flashes of better than that. Mays is below average, so we need to replace him with an average player. Woodyard is an acceptable backup. Irving has potential but if we could sign an instant upgrade over Mays (say Dan Connor) it'd be worth it.

S - Carter looks to have the makings of a solid starter but probably won't end up an elite player. Moore has sky high potential if he can turn it around after a bad rookie season. Bruton isn't a bad #3 safety. With Dawkins we had above average to near elite talent here and our D was worlds better thanks to it. We need a legitimate path to replacing that. So either go after Goldson/Landry or bet on Moore and make sure you've got a safety net not named Bruton if he fails.

CB - Champ is still elite. Harris is a solid nickel. We need a solid #2 and some elite potential for when Champ declines/retires. That can't be the same guy because then we've got another hole to fill. Sign a mid-20's solid #2 vet, draft a CB with elite potential early.

I don't think anyone was arguing that this team doesn't need talent. It's just not as simple as "get more Pro Bowlers".

cabronco
01-23-2012, 08:56 AM
Would love to get a dominant DT or MLB in the 1st round. I would like to see us build a great front four for a change. The AZ state MLB looks solid too.

Ray Finkle
01-23-2012, 09:04 AM
<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/d7achvXsy3Q" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


:thumbs:

funny, look at the sporting news (I know, they blow) comparison....

Current pro he compares to: Brandon Spikes, New England Patriots; Nate Irving; Denver Broncos.

Drek
01-23-2012, 09:06 AM
I don't think anyone was arguing that this team doesn't need talent. It's just not as simple as "get more Pro Bowlers".

Sure, but you can also look at units and say "who on this unit can even compete for the Pro Bowl?" If you have more than a couple units that your answer to that question is "no one" then you've got a real problem.

Its a popularity contest, but its a popularity contest based on you actually doing something worth a **** at some point in your career. You might not be that guy right now but motivated and used appropriately you have potential to get back to it. That is one of the most cut and dry ways to diagnose a lack of talent.

pricejj
01-23-2012, 10:21 AM
Usually. But a probowl nod does not always mean that player is a cornerstone for their team. Brian Griese and Brandon Lloyd will never be considered elite players, both made probowls. Both were/are journeyman players.

I could care less if a Bronco makes the probowl. Did he make plays to help the Broncos, and not the AFC team, win. That's all that matters at the end of the day.

You also have examples of teams going out to specifically get "probowl players" and falling flat. The Redskins and Eagles obvious examples.

:Broncos:

I am not advocating to sign all the ex Pro Bowlers you can find. That would be stupid, and very expensive. This is a thread about Broncos mock draft. The Broncos should pick someone in the draft they think could make the Pro Bowl someday, with elite talent, and stellar production.

Still and Cox are not those guys IMO. They haven't dominated or shown elite production at the college level. How would they turn into elite players in the NFL? It doesn't happen.

Draft guys in the 1st round you think could be the best in the league at their position. Feel better now? Call them what you want. I won't mention "Pro Bowl" to any of you any more since you all seem to have such an issue with that term. It's the best way I know how to figure out if you have an elite player or not (unless you want to buy a subscription to PFF, which I dont).

These are my player classifications:

1. Pro Bowler - a player who has elite talent, and is among the best in the league (Ryan Clady, Brian Dawkins, Willis McGahee).
2. Solid Starter - a player who may not be elite, but is a solid contributor, without any glaring deficiencies. Makes plays at times, and is not someone you target to replace, unless there is an elite player available (Andre Goodman, Chris Kuper, Brodrick Bunkley, Robert Ayers). These are guys who may even have the potential to develop into an elite player someday.

3. Backup - a player who may start for your team, but lack starter production and top-tier talent at that position. Performs at or near the bottom of the league at their position, and doesn't perform well in the clutch (Joe Mays, J.D. Walton, Kyle Orton, David Bruton). These are guys you "hope" can develop into a solid starter, but haven't shown it yet, and are players you target to replace.

You can come up with whatever player classifications you want. Don't bag on me because of the terminology I use. The Broncos have MANY needs, I am trying to figure out which needs are the most pressing, and go from there. If you bring in free agents, make sure they are at least "Solid Starters", or have the talent necessary to be the best in the league. Guys that could still be "Pro Bowlers" (like Willis McGahee, Brian Dawkins) and are major upgrades in a position of need. You don't just sign a guy like Terrell Owens (who made the Pro Bowl before), he is old, washed up, and can no longer play at an elite level. It is also unwise to sign free agents who are career backups to start for your team (like Kyle Orton, Joe Mays, Justin Bannan, Ryan McBean). You should always build through the draft.

Bronco Rob
01-24-2012, 11:08 AM
I am not advocating to sign all the ex Pro Bowlers you can find. That would be stupid, and very expensive. This is a thread about Broncos mock draft. The Broncos should pick someone in the draft they think could make the Pro Bowl someday, with elite talent, and stellar production.

Still and Cox are not those guys IMO. They haven't dominated or shown elite production at the college level. How would they turn into elite players in the NFL? It doesn't happen.

Draft guys in the 1st round you think could be the best in the league at their position. Feel better now? Call them what you want. I won't mention "Pro Bowl" to any of you any more since you all seem to have such an issue with that term. It's the best way I know how to figure out if you have an elite player or not (unless you want to buy a subscription to PFF, which I dont).

These are my player classifications:

1. Pro Bowler - a player who has elite talent, and is among the best in the league (Ryan Clady, Brian Dawkins, Willis McGahee).
2. Solid Starter - a player who may not be elite, but is a solid contributor, without any glaring deficiencies. Makes plays at times, and is not someone you target to replace, unless there is an elite player available (Andre Goodman, Chris Kuper, Brodrick Bunkley, Robert Ayers). These are guys who may even have the potential to develop into an elite player someday.

3. Backup - a player who may start for your team, but lack starter production and top-tier talent at that position. Performs at or near the bottom of the league at their position, and doesn't perform well in the clutch (Joe Mays, J.D. Walton, Kyle Orton, David Bruton). These are guys you "hope" can develop into a solid starter, but haven't shown it yet, and are players you target to replace.

You can come up with whatever player classifications you want. Don't bag on me because of the terminology I use. The Broncos have MANY needs, I am trying to figure out which needs are the most pressing, and go from there. If you bring in free agents, make sure they are at least "Solid Starters", or have the talent necessary to be the best in the league. Guys that could still be "Pro Bowlers" (like Willis McGahee, Brian Dawkins) and are major upgrades in a position of need. You don't just sign a guy like Terrell Owens (who made the Pro Bowl before), he is old, washed up, and can no longer play at an elite level. It is also unwise to sign free agents who are career backups to start for your team (like Kyle Orton, Joe Mays, Justin Bannan, Ryan McBean). You should always build through the draft.




:sunshine:

Tombstone RJ
01-24-2012, 11:27 AM
You must be smoking rocks if you think a team can win the Super Bowl without elite talent. Whether or not a player makes the Pro Bowl in his career, is the most effective gauge I can think of to judge whether a player has elite talent. If you know any other ways to judge elite talent, that don't involve a CRAY super-computer, I'm all ears.

D.J. Williams made the Pro Bowl in 2009. He can now be considered to have Pro Bowl talent. Is he going to make the Pro Bowl every year? NO. But he has what it takes to play at an elite level.

It's no secret that the most talented team wins. The 2011-2012 New England Patriots have 12 Pro Bowlers starting for them, and are going to the Super Bowl.

If I see a starting player that doesn't have the talent to make a Pro Bowl (whether or not he gets voted in), that is a player I target to replace.

If you want to be the Super Bowl Champions, you have to have the best players.

I agree to a certain extent, heck yah, you gotta have talent to win the SB, but you also have to have the right players in the right system. The Dallas Cowboys are a perfect example of a team loaded with talent but not going anywhere in the playoffs.

Bronco Rob
01-25-2012, 04:42 AM
http://www.topix.com/nfl/denver-broncos

LRtagger
01-25-2012, 07:14 AM
http://www.topix.com/nfl/denver-broncos

LOL this article is retarded. Denver has the 25th pick, not 19th. And Walterfootball.com has us taking Cox. They have had us taking him for a couple weeks now.

Walter has Worthy going to the Pats at pick 48.

Bronco Rob
01-25-2012, 07:24 AM
LOL this article is retarded. Denver has the 25th pick, not 19th. And Walterfootball.com has us taking Cox. They have had us taking him for a couple weeks now.

Walter has Worthy going to the Pats at pick 48.


I thought that was great! How on earth did we go from 25th to 19th! Topshelf work! Their prognosticators are treading in a sea of retardation.




:sunshine:

LRtagger
01-25-2012, 08:03 AM
Seriously...how are these people employed? It literally takes 2 minutes to look up that information before writing an article.

Bronco Rob
01-25-2012, 08:36 AM
25. Denver Broncos: Fletcher Cox, DT, Mississippi State
Brodrick Bunkley had a great year as a run-stuffer, but the Broncos don't really have anything next to him. Ryan McBean and free agent Marcus Thomas were both OK in run support, while offering absolutely nothing in terms of a pass rush. Fletcher Cox is the top player on the board, so I don't see why Denver would pass on him.

http://walterfootball.com/draft2012_1.php



DEN: Worthy, Jerel DT Michigan State

http://www.procomputergambler.com/2012-nfl-mock-draft/



25. Denver Broncos - Alfonzo Dennard CB, Nebraska
The Broncos did a good job of upgrading at safety in last year’s draft, they’ll hope for similar luck when it comes to their corners this year.

http://nfldraftseason.com/lups-2012-nfl-mock-draft-picks-23-32/



25. Denver Broncos Donta Hightower, ILB, Bama

http://newnfldraft.com/2012-nfl-mock-draft-7th-pick-matt-g/



25. Broncos Worthy-DT Cox-DT

http://www.nfldraftsite.sportsblog.com/



25. Denver Broncos – DT Fletcher Cox – Mississippi State
First decision is whether to stick with Tebow as your QB, which I think they will despite how much of a joke he is. They could use a WR but none worth this pick, so why not improve their defensive line.

http://sportsfantasyguide.com/richies-2012-nfl-mock-draft-picks-25-32/



25. Denver Broncos: Fletcher Cox, DT, Mississippi State
John Elway and the Denver Broncos have declared Tim Tebow (not sure if you have heard of him?) their starting QB going into training camp next year. So while I think they eventually will replace him, I don't think they do it with their first-round pick this year but instead look to improve a defense that was torched by the Patriots in the playoffs.They have two great pass rushers on the edge so they will look to improve the middle of their line with Cox who will immediately help their run defense as well.

http://www.eatdrinkandsleepfootball.com/draft/nfl/mockdraft/brendan-donahue/



25. Denver Broncos: Devon Still, DT, Penn St.
2012 NFL Draft Strategy: Mel Kiper says the Broncos will draft a QB in round 1. I’m saying that’s a no on that one. Tim Tebow earned at least another season as the Broncos starter considering he has started 14 games in his NFL career…not even a full season. The Broncos have bigger fish to fry in the first round than QB. They may look to address the defense at the DT or CB position. Andre Goodman was relentlessly beaten by the Pats in the Playoff game and Champ Bailey isn’t going to play forever. On offense, finding an electric back could be top priority. Willis McGahee was great in 2011 but is passing the age of productivity for RB’s. On top of that, John Fox loves to have two backs that he can rely on and they need some speed at the position to run the offense. The OL needs work (LG/RT) and they could use another WR.

2012 NFL Mock Draft Selection: This pick could go a variety of directions but with Still still on the board in our 2012 NFL Mock Draft, they opt for a DT. Still had a very solid season and could easily go in the top 15. That said, there will be some questions about position as he looks to be a more natural fit at five-technique. At 25, he represents a very good value.


http://nflsfuture.com/2012/01/24/2012-nfl-mock-draft-the-best-damn-mock-in-the-land/



25. Denver Broncos Alfonzo Dennard, CB, Nebraska
This Cornhusker can play corner or safety – very smooth and fluid – and brutally physical. We had him rated higher than teammate Prince Amukamara last year. The Cowboys would love one more corner to solidify their defensive backfield.

http://www.nepatriotsdraft.com/2012-part-2



25. Denver Broncos – Jerel Worthy, DT, Michigan State

Denver could use help in a ton of areas, but the most glaring hole in 2011 was easily Denver’s weak run defense. They have to get a big body who can help shut down the opposition’s run early, and Worthy is a strong candidate to fill that role.

Other option: Alfonzo Dennard


http://nflsoup.com/?p=20086



25. Denver Broncos – OT Zebrie Sanders – Florida State
If John Elway decides to stick with Tim Tebow they will have to build a little differently than a normal pocket passer. They will have to get a backup QB that plays a similar style to Tebow as well as build the depth of the offensive and defensive lines. With this pick in the 2012 NFL draft I would go with Sanders who is a big and physical offensive tackle who can run block really well.

http://sportsfantasyguide.com/2012-nfl-mock-draft-21-32



25. Broncos Devon Still DT from Penn State
After passing on DT/ 3-4 DE Dareus last year, they take a similar player.

Alternate: Barron.

http://draftdebacled.com/publisheddraft.aspx?mdid=27586



25. Devon Still DT Penn State
Notes – Defensive line has been an issue in Denver for a while. John Fox will help keep them equipped to be in striking distance for ‘Tebow Time’.

http://sportsdeckblog.com/2012-nfl-mock-draft/



25. Denver WR - Nick Toon, Wisconsin
Also - CB Alfonzo Dennard, DT Flecher Cox

http://www.yournfldraft.com/nfl_mock_draft.html



25. DEN: Fletcher Cox, DT, Mississippi State
Could also go with Jerel Worthy, DT, Michigan State

http://www.fftoolbox.com/nfl_draft/2012/2012-nfl-mock-draft.cfm?writer=10

Steve Sewell
01-25-2012, 08:47 AM
Dennard, Hightower, Still, Crick are a few names. Also Kirkpatrick. I believe Still and Kirkpatrick will be gone by the time we pick. Crick is a second round guy.

I will throw this out there as well. Lavonte David. He would be a steal in round three. If we could get him in round two, late, he would be worth it. His size is the only issue. But the kid is a baller. He was a top 3 LBer in college football this year.

I hate everything Husker, but I'd take Lavonte David in a heartbeat. Dude is a true baller and will be a star in the NFL.

TheReverend
01-25-2012, 09:07 AM
25. Broncos Devon Still DT from Penn State
After passing on DT/ 3-4 DE Dareus last year, they take a similar player.

Alternate: Barron.

http://draftdebacled.com/publisheddraft.aspx?mdid=27586

GTFO

Devon would RAPE Dareus in ANY area.

Dedhed
01-25-2012, 09:10 AM
Well usually if your team is riddled with Pro Bowlers, odds are, you're in the playoffs year in and year out.
It goes both ways. Playoff teams get more attention (read popularity), and the PB is as much about popularity as performance.

Bronco Rob
01-25-2012, 06:10 PM
25. Denver Broncos - Luke Kuechly* MLB / Boston College


The Butkus Award winner has been a tackling machine the past three years and could give John Fox's defense the leadership presence that Dan Morgan brought to Carolina early in Fox's Panthers tenure.


http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=pfw-20120124_mock_draft_10_2

houghtam
01-25-2012, 07:31 PM
It goes both ways. Playoff teams get more attention (read popularity), and the PB is as much about popularity as performance.

That was pretty much the point I was trying to make. Would Ed McCaffrey have been a Pro Bowler if he hadn't played in our system? I don't believe so.

Cito Pelon
01-25-2012, 07:59 PM
All I have to say is the old hack phrase, "It's not about the X's and the O's, it's about the Jimmy's and the Joe's."

You can get some wins with great coaching, but to get the top two Titles you need the horses.

elsid13
01-25-2012, 08:06 PM
More and more I think Cordy Glenn should be the pick. Either he will kick inside to play G or play RT and push Franklin inside.

Ray Finkle
01-26-2012, 06:34 AM
All I know about the picks, I will cheer a few, want to throw my shoe at the TV over some and be completely incorrect on my assessment if they are a good player or not.

v2micca
01-26-2012, 09:16 AM
This list may change as we approach Draft Day. But, currently the following are the players in order of my preference that I would love to see us take in the first round if they are available:

1. Devon Still, DT, Penn State
2. Luke Kuechly, ILB, Boston College
3. Jerel Worthy, DT, Michigan State
4. Dont'a Hightower, ILB, Alabama
5. Michael Brockers, DT, LSU
6. Vontaze Burfict, ILB, Arizona State


Any one of those guys at the number 25 spot would make me happy.

BroncoBen
01-26-2012, 09:19 AM
25. Denver Broncos: Fletcher Cox, DT, Mississippi State
Brodrick Bunkley had a great year as a run-stuffer, but the Broncos don't really have anything next to him. Ryan McBean and free agent Marcus Thomas were both OK in run support, while offering absolutely nothing in terms of a pass rush. Fletcher Cox is the top player on the board, so I don't see why Denver would pass on him.

http://walterfootball.com/draft2012_1.php



DEN: Worthy, Jerel DT Michigan State

http://www.procomputergambler.com/2012-nfl-mock-draft/



25. Denver Broncos - Alfonzo Dennard CB, Nebraska
The Broncos did a good job of upgrading at safety in last year’s draft, they’ll hope for similar luck when it comes to their corners this year.

http://nfldraftseason.com/lups-2012-nfl-mock-draft-picks-23-32/



25. Denver Broncos Donta Hightower, ILB, Bama

http://newnfldraft.com/2012-nfl-mock-draft-7th-pick-matt-g/



25. Broncos Worthy-DT Cox-DT

http://www.nfldraftsite.sportsblog.com/



25. Denver Broncos – DT Fletcher Cox – Mississippi State
First decision is whether to stick with Tebow as your QB, which I think they will despite how much of a joke he is. They could use a WR but none worth this pick, so why not improve their defensive line.

http://sportsfantasyguide.com/richies-2012-nfl-mock-draft-picks-25-32/



25. Denver Broncos: Fletcher Cox, DT, Mississippi State
John Elway and the Denver Broncos have declared Tim Tebow (not sure if you have heard of him?) their starting QB going into training camp next year. So while I think they eventually will replace him, I don't think they do it with their first-round pick this year but instead look to improve a defense that was torched by the Patriots in the playoffs.They have two great pass rushers on the edge so they will look to improve the middle of their line with Cox who will immediately help their run defense as well.

http://www.eatdrinkandsleepfootball.com/draft/nfl/mockdraft/brendan-donahue/



25. Denver Broncos: Devon Still, DT, Penn St.
2012 NFL Draft Strategy: Mel Kiper says the Broncos will draft a QB in round 1. I’m saying that’s a no on that one. Tim Tebow earned at least another season as the Broncos starter considering he has started 14 games in his NFL career…not even a full season. The Broncos have bigger fish to fry in the first round than QB. They may look to address the defense at the DT or CB position. Andre Goodman was relentlessly beaten by the Pats in the Playoff game and Champ Bailey isn’t going to play forever. On offense, finding an electric back could be top priority. Willis McGahee was great in 2011 but is passing the age of productivity for RB’s. On top of that, John Fox loves to have two backs that he can rely on and they need some speed at the position to run the offense. The OL needs work (LG/RT) and they could use another WR.

2012 NFL Mock Draft Selection: This pick could go a variety of directions but with Still still on the board in our 2012 NFL Mock Draft, they opt for a DT. Still had a very solid season and could easily go in the top 15. That said, there will be some questions about position as he looks to be a more natural fit at five-technique. At 25, he represents a very good value.


http://nflsfuture.com/2012/01/24/2012-nfl-mock-draft-the-best-damn-mock-in-the-land/



25. Denver Broncos Alfonzo Dennard, CB, Nebraska
This Cornhusker can play corner or safety – very smooth and fluid – and brutally physical. We had him rated higher than teammate Prince Amukamara last year. The Cowboys would love one more corner to solidify their defensive backfield.

http://www.nepatriotsdraft.com/2012-part-2



25. Denver Broncos – Jerel Worthy, DT, Michigan State

Denver could use help in a ton of areas, but the most glaring hole in 2011 was easily Denver’s weak run defense. They have to get a big body who can help shut down the opposition’s run early, and Worthy is a strong candidate to fill that role.

Other option: Alfonzo Dennard


http://nflsoup.com/?p=20086



25. Denver Broncos – OT Zebrie Sanders – Florida State
If John Elway decides to stick with Tim Tebow they will have to build a little differently than a normal pocket passer. They will have to get a backup QB that plays a similar style to Tebow as well as build the depth of the offensive and defensive lines. With this pick in the 2012 NFL draft I would go with Sanders who is a big and physical offensive tackle who can run block really well.

http://sportsfantasyguide.com/2012-nfl-mock-draft-21-32



25. Broncos Devon Still DT from Penn State
After passing on DT/ 3-4 DE Dareus last year, they take a similar player.

Alternate: Barron.

http://draftdebacled.com/publisheddraft.aspx?mdid=27586



25. Devon Still DT Penn State
Notes – Defensive line has been an issue in Denver for a while. John Fox will help keep them equipped to be in striking distance for ‘Tebow Time’.

http://sportsdeckblog.com/2012-nfl-mock-draft/



25. Denver WR - Nick Toon, Wisconsin
Also - CB Alfonzo Dennard, DT Flecher Cox

http://www.yournfldraft.com/nfl_mock_draft.html



25. DEN: Fletcher Cox, DT, Mississippi State
Could also go with Jerel Worthy, DT, Michigan State

http://www.fftoolbox.com/nfl_draft/2012/2012-nfl-mock-draft.cfm?writer=10

Very nice re-cap.. thank you for putting this together.

gyldenlove
01-26-2012, 09:30 AM
Still, Kuechly, Hightower, Dennard and Jenkins are the guys I am looking at.

Bronco Rob
01-26-2012, 09:34 AM
<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/d7achvXsy3Q" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


:thumbs:

Pony Boy
01-26-2012, 10:00 AM
All I have to say is the old hack phrase, "It's not about the X's and the O's, it's about the Jimmy's and the Joe's."

You can get some wins with great coaching, but to get the top two Titles you need the horses.

Let me fix this for ya...... it's about the Jamaal's and the Jerome's

Bronco Rob
01-30-2012, 05:32 AM
http://denver.sbnation.com/denver-broncos/2012/1/29/2756690/2012-nfl-mock-draft-news-broncos-jerel-worthy

phibacka31
01-30-2012, 06:24 PM
I just saw on pft that melivin ingram is on broncos radar.

schaaf
01-30-2012, 06:46 PM
Let me fix this for ya...... it's about the Jamaal's and the Jerome's

Hahaha:rofl:

gunns
01-30-2012, 08:02 PM
I am analyzing 2 teams to show a fairly accurate cross-section of Pro Bowlers on Super Bowl teams:

1997 Broncos:

OFFENSE
Ed McCaffrey - WR - 1x Pro Bowl
Gary Zimmerman - LT - HOFer
Mark Schlereth - LG - 2x Pro Bowl
Tom Nalen - C - 5x Pro Bowl
Brian Habib - RG - Solid starter
Tony Jones - RT - 1x Pro Bowl
Shannon Sharpe - TE - HOFer
Rod Smith - WR - 3x Pro Bowl
John Elway - QB - Hofer
Terrell Davis - RB - 3x Pro Bowl
Howard Griffith - FB - Solid starter (not sure how Griffith never made the Pro Bowl)
DEFENSE
Neil Smith - LE - 6x Pro Bowl
Keith Traylor - LDT - Solid starter
Maa Tanuvasa - RDT - Solid starter (led Broncos in sacks)
Alfred Williams - RE - 1x Pro Bowl
John Mobley - OLB - 1x All Pro
Allen Aldridge - MLB - sub-par starter
Bill Romanowski - ROLB - 2x Pro Bowl
[COLOR="red"]Ray Crockett - LCB - Solid starter[/COLOR
]Darrien Gordon - RCB - 4x All Pro
Tyrone Braxton - SS - 1x Pro Bowl
Steve Atwater - FS - 8x Pro Bowl

16 of 22 Pro Bowlers
5 of 22 Solid Starters
1 of 22 Sub-par Starter

Not everybody was a Pro Bowler...but Griffith, Crocket, Tanavasa, and Traylor were considered at some point I'm sure.

I'm reading through this thread, hit and miss, trying to see what's out there and I do not understand this "Pro Bowl" players. This post right here explains why. The Pro Bowl has become nothing more than a name recognition....and basically a joke. The fact that Tony Jones and Eddie Mac only made the Pro Bowl once and Griffin never tells you all you need to know. Those were some great blue collar workers. The Pats have a bunch of Pro Bowlers because that's all the media talks about. I'm not saying there isn't talent, but gauging that talent by potential to be in the Pro Bowl tells me nothing. I'm here to learn something so stop it!

gunns
01-30-2012, 08:18 PM
25. Denver Broncos: Fletcher Cox, DT, Mississippi State
Brodrick Bunkley had a great year as a run-stuffer, but the Broncos don't really have anything next to him. Ryan McBean and free agent Marcus Thomas were both OK in run support, while offering absolutely nothing in terms of a pass rush. Fletcher Cox is the top player on the board, so I don't see why Denver would pass on him.

http://walterfootball.com/draft2012_1.php

DEN: Worthy, Jerel DT Michigan State

http://www.procomputergambler.com/2012-nfl-mock-draft/



25. Denver Broncos - Alfonzo Dennard CB, Nebraska
The Broncos did a good job of upgrading at safety in last year’s draft, they’ll hope for similar luck when it comes to their corners this year.

http://nfldraftseason.com/lups-2012-nfl-mock-draft-picks-23-32/



25. Denver Broncos Donta Hightower, ILB, Bama

http://newnfldraft.com/2012-nfl-mock-draft-7th-pick-matt-g/



25. Broncos Worthy-DT Cox-DT

http://www.nfldraftsite.sportsblog.com/



25. Denver Broncos – DT Fletcher Cox – Mississippi State
First decision is whether to stick with Tebow as your QB, which I think they will despite how much of a joke he is. They could use a WR but none worth this pick, so why not improve their defensive line.

http://sportsfantasyguide.com/richies-2012-nfl-mock-draft-picks-25-32/



25. Denver Broncos: Fletcher Cox, DT, Mississippi State
John Elway and the Denver Broncos have declared Tim Tebow (not sure if you have heard of him?) their starting QB going into training camp next year. So while I think they eventually will replace him, I don't think they do it with their first-round pick this year but instead look to improve a defense that was torched by the Patriots in the playoffs.They have two great pass rushers on the edge so they will look to improve the middle of their line with Cox who will immediately help their run defense as well.

http://www.eatdrinkandsleepfootball.com/draft/nfl/mockdraft/brendan-donahue/



25. Denver Broncos: Devon Still, DT, Penn St.
2012 NFL Draft Strategy: Mel Kiper says the Broncos will draft a QB in round 1. I’m saying that’s a no on that one. Tim Tebow earned at least another season as the Broncos starter considering he has started 14 games in his NFL career…not even a full season. The Broncos have bigger fish to fry in the first round than QB. They may look to address the defense at the DT or CB position. Andre Goodman was relentlessly beaten by the Pats in the Playoff game and Champ Bailey isn’t going to play forever. On offense, finding an electric back could be top priority. Willis McGahee was great in 2011 but is passing the age of productivity for RB’s. On top of that, John Fox loves to have two backs that he can rely on and they need some speed at the position to run the offense. The OL needs work (LG/RT) and they could use another WR.

2012 NFL Mock Draft Selection: This pick could go a variety of directions but with Still still on the board in our 2012 NFL Mock Draft, they opt for a DT. Still had a very solid season and could easily go in the top 15. That said, there will be some questions about position as he looks to be a more natural fit at five-technique. At 25, he represents a very good value.


http://nflsfuture.com/2012/01/24/2012-nfl-mock-draft-the-best-damn-mock-in-the-land/



25. Denver Broncos Alfonzo Dennard, CB, Nebraska
This Cornhusker can play corner or safety – very smooth and fluid – and brutally physical. We had him rated higher than teammate Prince Amukamara last year. The Cowboys would love one more corner to solidify their defensive backfield.

http://www.nepatriotsdraft.com/2012-part-2



25. Denver Broncos – Jerel Worthy, DT, Michigan State

Denver could use help in a ton of areas, but the most glaring hole in 2011 was easily Denver’s weak run defense. They have to get a big body who can help shut down the opposition’s run early, and Worthy is a strong candidate to fill that role.

Other option: Alfonzo Dennard


http://nflsoup.com/?p=20086



25. Denver Broncos – OT Zebrie Sanders – Florida State
If John Elway decides to stick with Tim Tebow they will have to build a little differently than a normal pocket passer. They will have to get a backup QB that plays a similar style to Tebow as well as build the depth of the offensive and defensive lines. With this pick in the 2012 NFL draft I would go with Sanders who is a big and physical offensive tackle who can run block really well.

http://sportsfantasyguide.com/2012-nfl-mock-draft-21-32



25. Broncos Devon Still DT from Penn State
After passing on DT/ 3-4 DE Dareus last year, they take a similar player.

Alternate: Barron.

http://draftdebacled.com/publisheddraft.aspx?mdid=27586



25. Devon Still DT Penn State
Notes – Defensive line has been an issue in Denver for a while. John Fox will help keep them equipped to be in striking distance for ‘Tebow Time’.

http://sportsdeckblog.com/2012-nfl-mock-draft/



25. Denver WR - Nick Toon, Wisconsin
Also - CB Alfonzo Dennard, DT Flecher Cox

http://www.yournfldraft.com/nfl_mock_draft.html



25. DEN: Fletcher Cox, DT, Mississippi State
Could also go with Jerel Worthy, DT, Michigan State

http://www.fftoolbox.com/nfl_draft/2012/2012-nfl-mock-draft.cfm?writer=10

Very nice, thank you. That 2nd to the last one, the WR, almost made me throw up.

pricejj
01-31-2012, 12:17 AM
I'm reading through this thread, hit and miss, trying to see what's out there and I do not understand this "Pro Bowl" players. This post right here explains why. The Pro Bowl has become nothing more than a name recognition....and basically a joke. The fact that Tony Jones and Eddie Mac only made the Pro Bowl once and Griffin never tells you all you need to know. Those were some great blue collar workers. The Pats have a bunch of Pro Bowlers because that's all the media talks about. I'm not saying there isn't talent, but gauging that talent by potential to be in the Pro Bowl tells me nothing. I'm here to learn something so stop it!

It's the only label I can come up with that most accurately describes if a player is elite or not. There are plenty of exceptions, where deserving guys should have been voted in, but if they are elite, chances are they will get voted to the Pro Bowl at least once. Got any better suggestions?

New England Patriots 2012 Pro Bowl -
Tom Brady - duh
Wes Welker - most yards by wr in NFL
Rob Gronkowski - broke a million TE records
Vince Wilfork - best DT in the game, this year
Andre Carter - 52 tackles and 10 sacks (tied for 1st in AFC for DE's)
Brian Waters - name a better guard, 6x Pro Bowler
Logan Mankins - there is a reason Tom Brady threw for 5,000 yards...the Patriots don't have Beadles playing OG, they have Waters, and Mankins, 4x Pro Bowler
Matthew Slater - special teams gunner, who knows? can't find any tackles stats.

All these guys deserved to make the Pro Bowl and are elite players. Patriots are in the Super Bowl, so obviously they have some elite talent. Bringing up the Patriots 2012 Pro Bowlers is a pretty bad example.

Eddie McCaffrey had 3 elite years in the NFL, 1998, 1999, and 2000. His best year (2000) he finished with 1,317 yards (10th in the NFL)...some guys (Keyshawn Johnson, 28th) definitely didn't deserve to get in.

I know it's not a perfect way to judge talent, but give me a freaking break..

Shananahan
01-31-2012, 12:43 AM
It's a fine, if imperfect, way to judge talent. Some people seem to get all confused and misunderstand it to mean that a certain player is the best at his position due to playing in the Pro Bowl, though, and that's just not the case.

When the fan voting garbage was added, the Pro Bowl simply became an easy way to keep track of who lead the league in statistics and headlines.

gyldenlove
01-31-2012, 07:34 AM
It's a fine, if imperfect, way to judge talent. Some people seem to get all confused and misunderstand it to mean that a certain player is the best at his position due to playing in the Pro Bowl, though, and that's just not the case.

When the fan voting garbage was added, the Pro Bowl simply became an easy way to keep track of who lead the league in statistics and headlines.

The main limitation of that way of judging talent is that it may hide people who were in a decline - for instance if we had Randy Moss on the roster this year he would count as a multiple time pro-bowler and all-pro but would he be providing bang for the buck?

I think it is pretty easy to see that the current roster lacks talent to be a super bowl contende and the number of pro-bowlers/all-pros reflect this.

QB: Tebow (no awards)
RB: Mcgahee (pro bowler)
FB: Larsen (no awards)
WR: Thomas (no awards)
WR: Decker (no awards)
TE: Fells (no awards)
LT: Clady (all-pro)
LG: Beadles (no awards)
C: Walton (no awards)
RG: Kuper (no awards)
RT: Franklin (no awards)

WE: Dumervil (all-pro)
DT: Bunkley (no awards)
DT: Thomas (no awards)
SE: Ayers (no awards)
WLB: DJ (no awards)
MLB: Mays (no awards)
SLB: Miller (pro bowler)
CB: Bailey (pro bowler)
CB: Goodman (no awards)
S: Dawkins (all-pro)
S: Carter (no awards)

ST: Prater, Colquitt (no awards)

The good news is that every player we have who have been to a pro-bowl made it this year so we do not have too many who are on the decline too badly or who had one freak season. I am thinking people like Deltha Oneal or Antonio Cromartie.

Bronco Rob
02-08-2012, 01:44 AM
Round 1

Fletcher Cox the defensive tackle out of Mississippi State should be the pick here. Expect the Broncos to jump on the best defensive tackle on the board. Cox can get penetration and also is a good kick blocker on special teams. With John Fox and Jack Del Rio switching to the 4-3 defense, the Broncos need some defensive linemen in this draft.


Round 2

David Wilson the running back from Virginia Tech is my second round pick in the 2012 Denver Broncos mock draft.Wilsonis only a one year starter but showed flashes of a ability. The Broncos need some young legs in the offensive backfield and Wilson fits the bill here.


Round 3

Michael Brewster the big center out of OhioState makes sense here for the Denver Broncos. You can never have enough quality offensive linemen and Brewster could be a sleeper.


Round 4

Chris Givens the wide receiver out ofWake Fores tmay fall to here due to past injury concerns. Givens is a former running back and track star from his high school years and is talented enough to help the Broncos in 2012. If Eddie Royal is allowed to leave as a free agent then Denver will go for a wide receiver even higher than here.


Round 5

Donte Paige-Moss the troubled defensive end out of UNC is my pick here in the Denver Broncos 2012 mock draft. Moss has talent but has injury and off the field concerns but is worth a shot here.


Round 6

Julian Miller the defensive end from West Virginia will be a long time NFL player but probably not a superstar. Miller has ok but not great talent but his great motor allows him to be in place to make plays.


Round 7

Devon Wylie the wideout from Fresno State is a Wes Welker type that everyone wants on their roster. Wylie is worth a shot here with the last Denver Broncos pick in the 2012 NFL draft.



http://broncos.sportsblog.com/post/39/denver_broncos_2012_mock_draft.html

SpringStein
02-08-2012, 07:18 AM
Two 5th rounders, no 6th...

bowtown
02-08-2012, 07:37 AM
Round 1

Fletcher Cox the defensive tackle out of Mississippi State should be the pick here. Expect the Broncos to jump on the best defensive tackle on the board. Cox can get penetration and also is a good kick blocker on special teams. With John Fox and Jack Del Rio switching to the 4-3 defense, the Broncos need some defensive linemen in this draft.


Stopped reading there.

Shananahan
02-08-2012, 10:01 AM
I've been jumping in and out of this thread, so I might have missed it, but has there already been discussion of Michael Brockers? I watched quite a few LSU games last season and the guy looked pretty damn good. He's got the size and potential to pan out, and his youth is appealing unless you think he's another Okoye. You don't see too many redshirt sophomore defensive linemen in the draft.

I have no idea where he's going to be picked, but I've seen anywhere from early teens to late first, early second round.

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/1664406
http://www.lsusports.net/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=5200&ATCLID=3660178

bendog
02-08-2012, 10:19 AM
I like Dennard. He fits a need, and you know what you've got. Every DT I look at at 25 has imo bust potential.

Shananahan
02-08-2012, 10:51 AM
Well, every defensive tackle has bust potential. Just look at the failed experiments in Kansas City. It's one of the harder positions to draft successfully, without a solid defensive line system to groom them in (Pittsburgh, Baltimore, etc). I'm not opposed to drafting the ones with potential high for that reason, though. It's pretty much the only way you're ever going to create a feared defensive line.

Shananahan
02-08-2012, 11:09 AM
286 lbs is a 3-4 defensive end, not a run-stopping, pocket-collapsing defensive tackle. Throw in the fact that he really doesn't do anything special and I'll pass on Crick. If we're going defensive line, I want to at least draft a guy with the potential to be a stud in the middle.

Shananahan
02-08-2012, 11:23 AM
Not high on Brockers? I think if you want to improve the line you have to start somewhere at defensive tackle.

I mainly just don't think Crick is worth a high pick, having watched almost every game he's played the last two seasons. A lot of his sacks came from coverage, and you never really saw him take over a game or just dominate the guy in front of him for 60 minutes. I like him, but not in the first or second round.

Shananahan
02-08-2012, 11:32 AM
Huh, well alright. I guess I'd read he'd be a late first, early second due to his youth and lack of resume.

Aaaaanyway.

Requiem
02-08-2012, 11:54 AM
Crick is a quality player, but he is going to find a home playing on a 3-4 team as an end.

Shananahan
02-08-2012, 11:55 AM
Crick amassed an enormous amount of tackles and sacks for a DT. I've only seen highlights, but how can you dismiss that production?

He isn't a physical freak by any stretch (like Coples)...but what do you expect @ 25? Crick would definitely get to the QB. I bet he gets at least 7 sacks, and 50 tackles his rookie year.
If all you've seen is highlights then you haven't seen the whole story. Dude just doesn't make plays. He gets a sack every now and then and is a solid tackler, but I don't see him standing out at anything, including rushing the passer. His production speaks to his year next to Suh and the surrounding talent/scheme, I think.

No way in hell the guy gets seven sacks as a rookie.

pricejj
02-08-2012, 12:42 PM
If all you've seen is highlights then you haven't seen the whole story. Dude just doesn't make plays. He gets a sack every now and then and is a solid tackler, but I don't see him standing out at anything, including rushing the passer...

If Crick is drafted as a 3-4 DE, there is no way he gets 7 sacks...but as a 4-3 DT, it's almost a sure bet.

So who else would you take?

Peter Konz - Any sane GM would get him before our pick. Dude is a future All-Pro
Dont'a Hightower/Luke Kuechly - I'd rather take Jerry Franklin in the 2nd. Franklin can cover NFL TE's, and can be had at a better value.
Janoris Jenkins - Good player, but we still have Champ and Goodman. Dennard, Minnifield, Gilmore are all 2nd round guys.
Mark Barron - I kind of like him...but how many high picks are we going to invest in Safeties? Drafting Barron would admit epic fail by EFX.
Mike Adams/Cordy Glenn/Kelechi Osomele(RT) - Would not be mad at this pick...Franklin needs to move to Guard.
Still/Cox/Poe/Worthy - Nose Tackles...we already have 5 of those.
Kendall Wright - I would be happy with this pick if he runs in the 4.3's at combine, but if he does he will be gone before 25.
Lamar Miller - I wouldn't be mad at it, he is a speed burner. Bit of a reach, but he would have a big impact on our offense.
Orson Charles - Why? if you want a TE that bad, get Fleener in the 2nd, or Eifert in the 3rd. It ain't like McCoy throws them the ball anyway.
Michael Floyd/Alshon Jeffery - Too slow, we need a WR who can get open down the field against press-man.


I am excited for this draft because I think we have the potential to get 3 starters...but EFX could also screw up bigtime.

Shananahan
02-08-2012, 12:54 PM
If Crick is drafted as a 3-4 DE, there is no way he gets 7 sacks...but as a 4-3 DT, it's almost a sure bet.
I don't see it, man. Not at all.

Of that list, gimme Konz or one of the MLBs, CBs or DTs.

pricejj
02-08-2012, 01:32 PM
Imagine this:

Jared Crick (UT) @ 25 - Starts as a rookie, records 50 tackles and 7 sacks...Collapses the pocket, and enables Von and Elvis to become even bigger weapons. No more 40 point games from opposing Offenses.

David Wilson (RB) @ 57 - With low 4.4 forty speed, and a solid frame, David Wilson is everything you want out of an RB. Wilson racks up 1000 yards in his rookie year with limited touches, adding zip to the Broncos rushing attack, while splitting time with Willis McGahee. No more fakers in the Broncos backfield.


Jerry Franklin (MLB) @ 88 - After Joe Mays departure in FA, camp battle ensues between Nate Irving and Jerry Franklin for the starting MLB. Jerry Franklin wins, gets 100 tackles, 3 sacks, as a rookie. More importantly, he doesn't whiff on tackles, and stays lock-step in coverage (4.6 forty). Instantly solidifying the middle of the Denver defense, and stepping up in the leadership role.

oubronco
02-08-2012, 01:35 PM
Alot of what if wrapped up right there

ward63
02-08-2012, 06:39 PM
The great thing about the draft is that almost all predictions are wrong. How accurate are mock drafts outside of the top 3-5 picks? Not very accurate at all! I'm just ready for the draft to get here. This is nothing but football dead time/college basketball.

HAT
02-08-2012, 07:02 PM
Imagine this:

Jared Crick (UT) @ 25 - Starts as a rookie, records 50 tackles and 7 sacks...Collapses the pocket, and enables Von and Elvis to become even bigger weapons. No more 40 point games from opposing Offenses.

David Wilson (RB) @ 57 - With low 4.4 forty speed, and a solid frame, David Wilson is everything you want out of an RB. Wilson racks up 1000 yards in his rookie year with limited touches, adding zip to the Broncos rushing attack, while splitting time with Willis McGahee. No more fakers in the Broncos backfield.


Jerry Franklin (MLB) @ 88 - After Joe Mays departure in FA, camp battle ensues between Nate Irving and Jerry Franklin for the starting MLB. Jerry Franklin wins, gets 100 tackles, 3 sacks, as a rookie. More importantly, he doesn't whiff on tackles, and stays lock-step in coverage (4.6 forty). Instantly solidifying the middle of the Denver defense, and stepping up in the leadership role.

Why would Denver take Crick at 25 when he will be there at 57?

Shananahan
02-08-2012, 07:10 PM
Crick is going to go flying up the boards when people realize he's a sure bet to collapse the pocket and collect seven sacks.

OBF1
02-08-2012, 11:02 PM
Crick is going to go flying up the boards when people realize he's a sure bet to collapse the pocket and collect seven sacks.

Okay broken record, Enough with the myopic 7 sack babble. You are aware that only 3 DT's had 7 sacks or more in the NFL this season...

Justin Smith 7.5
Tommy Kelly 7.5
Geno Atkins 7.5

Crick's 2011 season looked like this:

5 games
1 sack
1 torn pectoral

If you think the NFL will be easier for him as a rookie than playing in the weak Big 12, you have another think coming.

Shananahan
02-08-2012, 11:10 PM
If you read further up this thread, you'll find that I was being sarcastic because I completely agree with you.

SoCalBronco
02-08-2012, 11:34 PM
Lamar Miller - I wouldn't be mad at it, he is a speed burner. Bit of a reach, but he would have a big impact on our offense.



Lamar is a speed burner and has shown an aptitude in zone running schemes so his vision is ok, but he's also soft. He's more Trung Canidate/Tatum Bell than say Clinton Portis. He's got to get alot stronger in his lower body and his upper body as well. He doesn't break tackles well and he isn't consistent. He'll get the 60 yard run, but he'll also get stopped at the line alot. His production declined significantly in the second half of the season. He really needed at least one more year to develop further. It's very rare that a guy can go from redshirt sophomore to NFL impact like that. I think he's a 2nd round talent at present. I dont think its worth it though at this time, we have bigger needs in Round 2 (certainly in Round 1 as well) and Lamar has alot of holes in his game at this time.

I have some thoughts on other draftable Miami players.

There are some other Miami players that could help Denver, though. Brandon Washington is a guy that is very comparable to Orlando Franklin. Both are natural guards who were forced to play left tackle in their senior years and as a result their game dipped considerably. Washington can be a very good NFL RG. Now, we've got an All-Pro caliber RG right now, so maybe we could use Washington at LG, but I think Washington has the skills to be a decent NFL starter at that position, especially in the run game. I think Washington is a late 2nd to mid 3rd talent.

Tommy Streeter is a very intriguing prospect as a WR. I am intrigued by the idea of having two king sized WR targets for the red zone. We've already got DT and Tommy is 6'6''. What's special about him is that he also has pretty good speed for his size and really exploded the second half of the season after literally doing absolutely nothing for the first three and a half years of his career. I'm sure he'll test well at the combine, especially in the vertical leap stuff etc. In addition to the late bloomer/late production question mark, there's also an issue about his hands. He has a tendency to fight the ball as it gets to him, he doesn't have natural hands, but he got better at this as Miami's WR coach came from the league and worked well with him. He's an intriguing red zone target/project with good upside. I would recommend drafting Streeter as a developmental reciever but no earlier than Round 4 due to some of the issues discussed earlier. I think he'll be drafted somewhere between Rounds 4-6. The other Miami WR in this draft is Travis Benjamin. Benjamin's best attribute is in the KR/PR game. We had some issues there so he could definitely provide a big bang for the buck in that department. Travis is an electric returner and has been for four years. As an actual WR, he had been a big play deep ball WR (think Lelie) up until this year, but his WR production wasn't as great this season. He does NOT have good measurables. He's short and weighs around 180, so he lacks functional strength. I think he'll have some serious problems getting off the line, so he'll need to line up off the ball (flanker). He won't be a guy that you can run a full route tree with, just the vertical stuff and the screen stuff. There have also been some questions about Travis's work ethic. As a KR-PR, it would be worth it to take him in the 7th round, 6th at best, though, as he could probably take a couple to the house each year.

Denver may or may not be looking for an upgrade at SDE. I don't think Olivier Vernon fits this bill. He isn't great against the run and was not particularly productive after he returned from his suspension this year. He's really only had one great year in college and doesn't have a ton of moves. I think we should stick with Ayers.

Sean Spence gets my full endorsement at LB. Spence is a natural WLB but can also play MLB. His numbers suggest he should be a WLB in the pros (5'11, 228), although Fox likes smaller backers for all spots. Obviously we have a great WLB already in DJ and a great backup in WW. I believe Spence can play MLB in this system as well as his natural WLB. Spence actually DID play MLB for a big chunk of the second half of the season as we had a true freshman who needed to get on the field and they played him at WLB late in the year (Denzel Perryman, watch out for him in a few years as well as DE Anthony Chickillo). Spence was able to move from WLB to MLB effortlessly. His principal strengths are speed and instincts. Sean has great football instincts and is able to quickly diagnose plays and knife into the backfield to blow things up. He's a good tackler despite his small stature. He's smooth in coverage and has good change of direction and agility. I'm not sure he could cover NFL TE's since he doesnt have great height and most of them are well over 6'0, but he can cover backs. Sean Spence has great leadership abilities and makes timely plays.

Denver may also be looking for QB depth. Jacory Harris lacks even a below average NFL arm and has the single worst velocity on his passes of any QB I have ever seen. He throws alot of lazy passes and the ball seems to take forever to get to the WR even on simple 12 yard curl routes, which results in interceptions since LBs have ample time to get underneath the throw. His decisionmaking, albeit significantly improved as a senior under the tutelage of Jedd Fisch, is still well below average for an NFL QB and would be well below average for even most NFL rookie QBs. His frame will also get him killed. His confidence level will significantly dip at the first sign of trouble as well. He is not worth drafting, even in the 7th round.

Sean Spence Highlights:
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/e6eMJ3IENLs" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Tommy Streeter Highlights:
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/p8Bu3538FdY" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Dexter
02-08-2012, 11:38 PM
Lamar is a speed burner and has shown an aptitude in zone running schemes so his vision is ok, but he's also soft. He's more Trung Canidate/Tatum Bell than say Clinton Portis. He's got to get alot stronger in his lower body and his upper body as well. He doesn't break tackles well and he isn't consistent. He'll get the 60 yard run, but he'll also get stopped at the line alot. His production declined significantly in the second half of the season. He really needed at least one more year to develop further. It's very rare that a guy can go from redshirt sophomore to NFL impact like that. I think he's a 2nd round talent at present. I dont think its worth it though at this time, we have bigger needs in Round 2 (certainly in Round 1 as well) and Lamar has alot of holes in his game at this time.

I have some thoughts on other draftable Miami players.

There are some other Miami players that could help Denver, though. Brandon Washington is a guy that is very comparable to Orlando Franklin. Both are natural guards who were forced to play left tackle in their senior years and as a result their game dipped considerably. Washington can be a very good NFL RG. Now, we've got an All-Pro caliber RG right now, so maybe we could use Washington at LG, but I think Washington has the skills to be a decent NFL starter at that position, especially in the run game. I think Washington is a late 2nd to mid 3rd talent.

Tommy Streeter is a very intriguing prospect as a WR. I am intrigued by the idea of having two king sized WR targets for the red zone. We've already got DT and Tommy is 6'6''. What's special about him is that he also has pretty good speed for his size and really exploded the second half of the season after literally doing absolutely nothing for the first three and a half years of his career. I'm sure he'll test well at the combine, especially in the vertical leap stuff etc. In addition to the late bloomer/late production question mark, there's also an issue about his hands. He has a tendency to fight the ball as it gets to him, he doesn't have natural hands, but he got better at this as Miami's WR coach came from the league and worked well with him. He's an intriguing red zone target/project with good upside. I would recommend drafting Streeter as a developmental reciever but no earlier than Round 4 due to some of the issues discussed earlier. I think he'll be drafted somewhere between Rounds 4-6. The other Miami WR in this draft is Travis Benjamin. Benjamin's best attribute is in the KR/PR game. We had some issues there so he could definitely provide a big bang for the buck in that department. Travis is an electric returner and has been for four years. As an actual WR, he had been a big play deep ball WR (think Lelie) up until this year, but his WR production wasn't as great this season. He does NOT have good measurables. He's short and weighs around 180, so he lacks functional strength. I think he'll have some serious problems getting off the line, so he'll need to line up off the ball (flanker). He won't be a guy that you can run a full route tree with, just the vertical stuff and the screen stuff. There have also been some questions about Travis's work ethic. As a KR-PR, it would be worth it to take him in the 7th round, 6th at best, though, as he could probably take a couple to the house each year.

Denver may or may not be looking for an upgrade at SDE. I don't think Olivier Vernon fits this bill. He isn't great against the run and was not particularly productive after he returned from his suspension this year. He's really only had one great year in college and doesn't have a ton of moves. I think we should stick with Ayers.

Sean Spence gets my full endorsement at LB. Spence is a natural WLB but can also play MLB. His numbers suggest he should be a WLB in the pros (5'11, 228), although Fox likes smaller backers for all spots. Obviously we have a great WLB already in DJ and a great backup in WW. I believe Spence can play MLB in this system as well as his natural WLB. Spence actually DID play MLB for a big chunk of the second half of the season as we had a true freshman who needed to get on the field and they played him at WLB late in the year (Denzel Perryman, watch out for him in a few years as well as DE Anthony Chickillo). Spence was able to move from WLB to MLB effortlessly. His principal strengths are speed and instincts. Sean has great football instincts and is able to quickly diagnose plays and knife into the backfield to blow things up. He's a good tackler despite his small stature. He's smooth in coverage and has good change of direction and agility. I'm not sure he could cover NFL TE's since he doesnt have great height and most of them are well over 6'0, but he can cover backs. Sean Spence has great leadership abilities and makes timely plays.

Denver may also be looking for QB depth. Jacory Harris lacks even a below average NFL arm and has the single worst velocity on his passes of any QB I have ever seen. He throws alot of lazy passes and the ball seems to take forever to get to the WR even on simple 12 yard curl routes, which results in interceptions since LBs have ample time to get underneath the throw. His decisionmaking, albeit significantly improved as a senior under the tutelage of Jedd Fisch, is still well below average for an NFL QB and would be well below average for even most NFL rookie QBs. His frame will also get him killed. His confidence level will significantly dip at the first sign of trouble as well. He is not worth drafting, even in the 7th round.

Wow, very nice write up. -----Thanks!

pricejj
02-08-2012, 11:53 PM
Alright how about:

25. Peter Konz/Mark Barron
57. Doug Martin
88. Jerry Franklin


I would do cartwheels from my house to sports authority field with a draft like that.

SoCalBronco
02-08-2012, 11:58 PM
Wow, very nice write up. -----Thanks!

No prob. BTW, I edited my post to add some highlight clips if you want to see those. I couldn't find any highlights for Washington, though.

ColoradoBuff
02-09-2012, 11:12 AM
Fixed for ya! Would LOVE LOVE LOVE this draft!


Alright how about:

25. Peter Konz
57. David Wilson
88. Jerry Franklin


I would do cartwheels from my house to sports authority field with a draft like that.

pricejj
02-09-2012, 03:56 PM
Fixed for ya! Would LOVE LOVE LOVE this draft!

:strong:

barryr
02-10-2012, 08:16 AM
I would seriously look to play Konz at LG if drafted. Crick does not have the look of a great player IMO. Useful player and could help, but not worth a 1st round pick.

Streeter is a guy worth looking at for sure with a great size/speed combo and Doug Martin is the kind of RB the Broncos could use.

Franklin was a MLB I had mentioned myself some time ago. He has the look and seemingly ability to be a very good MLB. You have to like his timed speed for sure and he has nice bulk too and has high tackle numbers to boot.

As for DT's, is there going to be a huge difference in production between Worthy, Cox, Brockers, Still, Thompson, Poe, Reyes, Ta'amu, Martin, Harris etc?

The CB spot has guys like Gilmore, Minnifield, Leonard Johnson, Steed, Boykin, Hayward, Fleming, and Asa Jackson will be looked at as well.

Bronco Rob
02-11-2012, 01:15 PM
.

gyldenlove
02-11-2012, 06:31 PM
.

I don't consider Gilmore to be a good fit at all, he is a zone corner with good size but lacks the speed and fluidity to be a man cover guy. I still think Dennard is a much better fit, he is a classic press-man cover guy which fits our style of defense well, even Leonard Johnson is a better prospect for us.

pricejj
02-12-2012, 12:53 AM
I don't consider Gilmore to be a good fit at all, he is a zone corner with good size but lacks the speed and fluidity to be a man cover guy. I still think Dennard is a much better fit, he is a classic press-man cover guy which fits our style of defense well, even Leonard Johnson is a better prospect for us.

What do you think of Janoris Jenkins? From the highlights I've seen, he seems to play press-man better than Dennard, with better size and athleticism. He would probably be of the board anyway, so it is probably a moot point.

Another thing...I like Claiborne, but does he lack elite speed? Guess we will find out at the combine. If he only runs 4.5, he isn't nearly the prospect that Patrick Peterson was.

I am not sure about Kirkpatrick's cover skills quite yet, but he has good size, and is very physical. His hips may be a bit stiff, and lower body may not be able to change direction as well as you would like for a top flight CB. Thoughts?

I would be very hesitant to pick a CB in the 1st round, at any rate...We need way too much on the OL and DL.

Shananahan
02-12-2012, 12:57 AM
To be fair, hardly anybody at CB is going to be the prospect Peterson was.

lonestar
02-12-2012, 01:02 AM
To be fair, hardly anybody at CB is going to be the prospect Peterson was.

Any of them with a pluse would be an upgrade over #21..

Dedhed
02-12-2012, 10:59 AM
Imagine this:

Jared Crick (UT) @ 25 - Starts as a rookie, records 50 tackles and 7 sacks...Collapses the pocket, and enables Von and Elvis to become even bigger weapons. No more 40 point games from opposing Offenses.
Gross.

Crick at 25 would be a huge reach. Most projections I've seen have him dropping into the late 2nd-3rd round. On top of that, I don't think he's the player the Broncos need. With Von and Doom already on the edges and Fox's love for speed at LB, we need space eaters in the middle who can hold there ground while the other guys do their thing. That's not Crick at all.

Broncos_OTM
02-12-2012, 12:36 PM
You're right, sacks aren't the only determining factor...tackles are very important as well, and Crick gets a lot of them (70 tackles twice).

AFC DT Pro-Bowl 2012:

Haloti Ngata - 64 tackles, 5 sacks (awesome for playing in a 3-4, can't ask for much more than that)

Vince Wilfork - 52 tackles, 3.5 sacks (awesome as a NT in a 3-4...Broncos NT is Bunkley, Crick would play UT)

Richard Seymour - 29 tackles, 6 sacks (crap year, but had decent sack numbers...his sacks and reputation are why he got in)

NFC DT Pro-Bowl 2012:

Justin Smith - 58 tackles, 7.5 sacks (awesome for playing DE in a 3-4, evens better than Ngata)

Jay Ratliffe - 38 tackles, 2.0 sacks (NT in a 3-4, guessing he got in because he's a Cowboy)

B.J. Raji - 22 tackles, 3 sacks (NT in a 3-4, not a very good year)


The only 4-3 UT who made the 2011 Pro-Bowl was Richard Seymour (who got in mainly based on reputation, but had a decent year with 6 sacks). You can't compare 3-4 lineman sack numbers with 4-3 UT's. In a 3-4, the sacks come mainly from the OLB's. In a 4-3, the sacks come mainly from the RDE and the UT. The Broncos run a 4-3, and we need a sacking, penetrating UT...enter Jared Crick.
You lose all credibility when you say NE ran a 3/4 Baltimore is a multiple front team meaning they run 4/3 &3/4

Broncos_OTM
02-12-2012, 12:43 PM
Stopped reading there.

Denver ran some varied fronts. Very simar to a 3/4 with von plahing up a.d dumervil playing with his hand in the ground ... I beliebe Ayers was essentially a 3/4 de in alot of sets and asked to play the run extensively. Which cost him on his sack count

Dedhed
02-12-2012, 12:45 PM
Denver ran some varied fronts. Very simar to a 3/4 with von plahing up a.d dumervil playing with his hand in the ground ... I beliebe Ayers was essentially a 3/4 de in alot of sets and asked to play the run extensively. Which cost him on his sack count

I also think the article could be referencing the 3-4 run under McDaniels and Co and not necessarily Allen's scheme.

Shananahan
02-12-2012, 12:46 PM
Did Seymour really play UT the majority of the time? I thought they had that guy lined up all over the place.

Glad to see I'm not blind when watching Crick and seeing a guy who doesn't do anything special.

Broncos_OTM
02-12-2012, 12:50 PM
Nate Solder disagrees...
Dude im starting to think you ride the short bus.there are more deserving players who deserve to be all pris then Nate solder or Franklin. Solder looks good but all pro next year is laughabke.
Oh and Hightower has NOO place in Denver... Fox values soeed at the position something he lacks.

Broncos_OTM
02-12-2012, 12:54 PM
I also think the article could be referencing the 3-4 run under McDaniels and Co and not necessarily Allen's scheme.
pissibly but I am going to assume the wrjter bas a better understanding on the scheme we have run over some of the people here

SoCalBronco
02-12-2012, 07:40 PM
You lose all credibility when you say NE ran a 3/4 Baltimore is a multiple front team meaning they run 4/3 &3/4

NE semi-frequently uses half of their front as a two gap 3-4, with the other half as one gap 4-3 (dividing it on the midline). Saban likes to do this as well.

bowtown
02-12-2012, 08:07 PM
Denver ran some varied fronts. Very simar to a 3/4 with von plahing up a.d dumervil playing with his hand in the ground ... I beliebe Ayers was essentially a 3/4 de in alot of sets and asked to play the run extensively. Which cost him on his sack count

And that's what they'll be running again next year.

Mogulseeker
02-12-2012, 08:13 PM
I've followed the Broncos drafts since 2001.

How comes it always seems we're looking for a CB and a DT?

pricejj
02-12-2012, 10:44 PM
Dude im starting to think you ride the short bus.there are more deserving players who deserve to be all pris then Nate solder or Franklin. Solder looks good but all pro next year is laughabke.
Oh and Hightower has NOO place in Denver... Fox values soeed at the position something he lacks.

I was referencing someone elses post saying Franklin would be in the Pro Bowl next year at RT. I don't know if Solder will be in the Pro Bowl at RT or not...but it's not out of the question, and he is light years better at the position than Franklin.

I want the Broncos to draft Jerry Franklin in the 3rd round...not Hightower in the first.

Don't get it twisted.

pricejj
02-12-2012, 10:49 PM
You lose all credibility when you say NE ran a 3/4 Baltimore is a multiple front team meaning they run 4/3 &3/4

Both NE and Baltimore are multiple front teams. Wilfork primarily is a 2-gapper, Nose Tackle in a 3-4. Remember when Ninkovich blew up Orlando Franklin twice in the playoffs, leading to Tebow's cartilage damage? The Patriots were playing in a 3-4, Ninkovich was coming from the outside linebacker position in the 3-4.

pricejj
02-12-2012, 11:08 PM
Gross.

Crick at 25 would be a huge reach. Most projections I've seen have him dropping into the late 2nd-3rd round. On top of that, I don't think he's the player the Broncos need. With Von and Doom already on the edges and Fox's love for speed at LB, we need space eaters in the middle who can hold there ground while the other guys do their thing. That's not Crick at all.

You do realize we have about 5 space-eaters on the inside already right (Vickerson, McBean, Thomas, Bunkley, Unrein? Those are all guys who don't get up the field much. Ever wonder why NE scored 45 against us, but only 21 against the giants? Umenyioura, JPP, and Justin Tuck...that's why...the Giants don't have any guys who are just "space-eaters". When the Giants need to get pressure, they bring it, you can never have enough pass rushers...especially in the new pass-oriented NFL.

You see, you can find "space-eaters" all day every day in the draft. An impact, pass rushing UT is MUCH harder to find...and it is what the Broncos need. You can't just vacate a linebacker position (Miller blitz) everytime you want to get a pass rush.

So if you don't think Crick is the guy...maybe he is too small to play UT in the NFL...maybe not...then who do you suggest at 25? Don't give me no 4 sack guys who didn't do much of anything in college. Those guys are backups or NT's in the NFL.

I bet you Crick has more tackles and sacks, as a rookie, than Fletcher Cox...

I see about 23 really good prospects in this draft. Your gonna hate this, but the best prospect remaining at 25 may be a DE like Andre Branch...

Shananahan
02-12-2012, 11:52 PM
You do realize we have about 5 space-eaters on the inside already right (Vickerson, McBean, Thomas, Bunkley, Unrein? Those are all guys who don't get up the field much.
Vickerson just lost about 20+ pounds last season with the pure intention of no longer being a space-eater. Marcus Thomas also hardly qualifies, and Mitch Unrein or whatever the hell is name is wouldn't be worth mentioning regardless of what style he plays because he probably won't be on the team next year or the year beyond.

All of that is irrelevant, however, because your whole entire argument is based off of statistics belonging to a player who you haven't really seen play. Crick is not this disruptive, penetrating lineman that you seem to think he is for some reason. He's an all-around average player who will hold up in the run game and do his best to push the pocket. He's the type of guy who would be nice to have on the roster, but doesn't strike me as the type who will ever be a very good player at the position (assuming he plays as a mini-DT).

Your love for the dude is unfounded.

lonestar
02-13-2012, 12:00 AM
I've followed the Broncos drafts since 2001.

How comes it always seems we're looking for a CB and a DT?

WE? you have a mouse in your pocket?..

So far I have not seen us EVER look at a DT or CB worth a crap on day one or two (in past drafts). Pryce does not count as he was really a college LB that was moved to DE by the broncos and then to DT when we had none worth a crap.

All mikey ever really liked drafting was LBs and those were almost the only folks he ever resigned after their rookie contracts expired, Wilson, Mobley, DJ. BTW the ONLY other day one picks he ever resigned were Neil, Pryce and Griese..

that is SIX out of 41 day one picks. Rounds 1-3.. from 1995 to 2008

Shananahan
02-13-2012, 12:06 AM
WE? you have a mouse in your pocket?..

So far I have not seen us EVER look at a DT or CB worth a crap on day one or two (in past drafts).
Hmmmm...

lonestar
02-13-2012, 12:12 AM
Hmmmm...

Show me who we got that was worth a crap in mikeys DAFTS..

http://www.nfl.com/draft/history/fulldraft?teamId=1400&type=team

I've looked and do not see anyone worth a top 100 pick.. Rounds 1-3..

Show me the meat..

Shananahan
02-13-2012, 12:17 AM
WE? You have a mouse in your pocket?

lonestar
02-13-2012, 12:30 AM
WE? You have a mouse in your pocket?

Guess that you have never said us, we or our when referring to the broncos because you are a fan..

if that is the case then pardon me all to hell your the only fan that has not done so..

Shananahan
02-13-2012, 12:42 AM
Way over your head, dude. I was giving you a hard time for doing the exact same thing to Smurf.

lonestar
02-13-2012, 12:43 AM
Way over your head, dude. I was giving you a hard time for doing the exact same thing to Smurf.

In his case it was justified..

time for bed..

Dedhed
02-13-2012, 07:15 AM
You do realize we have about 5 space-eaters on the inside already right (Vickerson, McBean, Thomas, Bunkley, Unrein? Those are all guys who don't get up the field much. Ever wonder why NE scored 45 against us, but only 21 against the giants? Umenyioura, JPP, and Justin Tuck...that's why...the Giants don't have any guys who are just "space-eaters". When the Giants need to get pressure, they bring it, you can never have enough pass rushers...especially in the new pass-oriented NFL.

You see, you can find "space-eaters" all day every day in the draft. An impact, pass rushing UT is MUCH harder to find...and it is what the Broncos need. You can't just vacate a linebacker position (Miller blitz) everytime you want to get a pass rush.

So if you don't think Crick is the guy...maybe he is too small to play UT in the NFL...maybe not...then who do you suggest at 25? Don't give me no 4 sack guys who didn't do much of anything in college. Those guys are backups or NT's in the NFL.

I bet you Crick has more tackles and sacks, as a rookie, than Fletcher Cox...

I see about 23 really good prospects in this draft. Your gonna hate this, but the best prospect remaining at 25 may be a DE like Andre Branch...
Crick is not going in the first round, so you don't really have a leg to stand on with your Crick argument. I wouldn't mind taking a flier on him if he's around in the 4th. He's got some value there.

I'm also not a Jerry Franklin fan. Short, slow, and didn't show up in big games.

I don't think the BPA at #25 is going to be a DL. It's much more likely to be a LB or CB.

I wouldn't pass on Burfict if he's there at #25. He's the most talented MLB in the draft and is going to be a beast in the NFL. I don't care about his "issues" in college. I think he was black listed by officials and handcuffed by coaches. Look at some of the flags against him, and there is no way you say officials were watching him objectively. I think he was simply too aggressive for college football.

In the NFL I think Burfict has Ray Lewis/Patrick Willis potential at MLB and is the one player in the draft who could change the entire defense. If he's there and we pass, we'll regret it.

As far as DTs go, I like Kendall Reyes a lot. I think he has some nice athleticism for a DT, but I think he's a reach in the 2nd and unlikely to be there for us in the 3rd. Derek Wolfe would be a far better option than Crick, but like Crick is probably better suited as a 3-4 DE.

pricejj
02-13-2012, 09:48 AM
I wouldn't pass on Burfict if he's there at #25. He's the most talented MLB in the draft and is going to be a beast in the NFL. I don't care about his "issues" in college. I think he was black listed by officials and handcuffed by coaches. Look at some of the flags against him, and there is no way you say officials were watching him objectively. I think he was simply too aggressive for college football.

In the NFL I think Burfict has Ray Lewis/Patrick Willis potential at MLB and is the one player in the draft who could change the entire defense. If he's there and we pass, we'll regret it.

As far as DTs go, I like Kendall Reyes a lot. I think he has some nice athleticism for a DT, but I think he's a reach in the 2nd and unlikely to be there for us in the 3rd. Derek Wolfe would be a far better option than Crick, but like Crick is probably better suited as a 3-4 DE.

I definitely like Derek Wolfe, and you're right, he could be had at a much better value than Crick. They both are similar players, even though Crick is faster. I still think we need OL/DL, or an elite skill player in the 1st. It's a deep year for corners, picking one in the 1st would be a waste.

Burfict has some pretty sweet highlights, but he has just as many lowlights. It almost seems like he gives up on passing plays. I also don't like the idea of the Broncos turning into a Raiders defense and getting flagged all the time, because we have a a guy like Burfict. I think Hightower is a superior MLB to Burfict, even though he got somewhat overshadowed by the talent around him. He showed up big time in the BCS National Championship game. In his bowl game, Burfict was sitting the bench. He could have all the "potential" in the world, and I kind of like him, but the risk/reward is just too high. He's also not a very good leader, and ASU got tattooed by PAC 12 offenses.

I have Kendall Reyes listed as right around #57 as far as prospects go. If David Wilson and Doug Martin are off the board, I would probably draft him there.

Jerry Franklin has good speed (4.6 forty), and 3 straight 100 tackle years...if you don't like him, or think Irving is the answer (I don't), we could go after Coryell Judie in the 3rd, or Derek Wolfe.

Shananahan
02-13-2012, 09:52 AM
It's a deep year for corners, picking one in the 1st would be a waste.
If there right guy is there at our pick I don't see how it could possibly be a waste. Denver is in major need of talented young players in the secondary.

pricejj
02-13-2012, 10:27 AM
If there right guy is there at our pick I don't see how it could possibly be a waste. Denver is in major need of talented young players in the secondary.

I like Dre Kirkpatrick, Janoris Jenkins, and Mark Barron...if any of those guys fall to 25, I would draft them.

I have Stephon Gilmore rated just below those guys because he is projected to run in the 4.5's, plus he looks too much like Bob Marley. Dennard and Minnifield are 2nd rounders.

I like Andre Goodman, and am looking for a rookie starter in the 1st round. I don't like the chances of a guy like Gilmore starting ahead of either Bailey or Goodman next year. That's why I would probably wait, and possibly go after Coryell Judie later in the draft. He has good speed (4.38 forty, projected), and playmaking ability.

Janoris Jenkins has the best chance of falling to 25 IMO...if he does would you rather pick him or an OL/DL?

CEH
02-13-2012, 10:30 AM
If there right guy is there at our pick I don't see how it could possibly be a waste. Denver is in major need of talented young players in the secondary.

I agree. We need young CB so I don't see how a 1st round talent is a waste.We know from last year with DTs Denver will not reach if the grade is not there

We need to try to predict how Denver will draft not how some guy on a messageboard would draft

Dedhed
02-13-2012, 10:38 AM
I'd take Boykins in the 3rd at CB and let him learn from a fellow Dawg.

Give me a Burfcit, Sean Spence, Boykins first 3 rounds, and I'll giggle. Then spend some money on DT in FA. Sione Puha and Jason Jones would be nice.

pricejj
02-13-2012, 10:47 AM
I agree. We need young CB so I don't see how a 1st round talent is a waste.We know from last year with DTs Denver will not reach if the grade is not there

We need to try to predict how Denver will draft not how some guy on a messageboard would draft

There is a good chance one of these guys will fall to 25:

1. Whitney Mercilus
2. Nick Perry
3. Melvin Ingram
4. Courtney Upshaw
5. Andre Branch

If Kirkpatrick, and Barron are off the board, and only Jenkins remains...who would you take between Andre Branch (DE) and Janoris Jenkins (CB)?

oubronco
02-13-2012, 10:47 AM
Burfict is a headhunter like James Harrison he hits too high

He will be a personal foul machine in the NFL

pricejj
02-13-2012, 10:58 AM
I'd take Boykins in the 3rd at CB and let him learn from a fellow Dawg.

Give me a Burfcit, Sean Spence, Boykins first 3 rounds, and I'll giggle. Then spend some money on DT in FA. Sione Puha and Jason Jones would be nice.

1. Burfict is rated as the #88 overall prospect by NFLdraftscout.
2. Where are you going to play Spence? I hope you don't plan on cutting D.J., he had a great year.

Borat could probably put together a better draft than that.

Requiem
02-13-2012, 11:16 AM
Way over your head, dude. I was giving you a hard time for doing the exact same thing to Smurf.

You are dealing with one of the biggest douche fans on the 'net. Hammer him.

Dedhed
02-13-2012, 11:25 AM
Burfict is a headhunter like James Harrison he hits too high Yeah, having a Harrison type would suck.

oubronco
02-13-2012, 11:26 AM
Yeah, having a Harrison type would suck.

All those flags and suspensions sure would

pricejj
02-13-2012, 11:33 AM
All of that is irrelevant, however, because your whole entire argument is based off of statistics belonging to a player who you haven't really seen play. Crick is not this disruptive, penetrating lineman that you seem to think he is for some reason. He's an all-around average player who will hold up in the run game and do his best to push the pocket. He's the type of guy who would be nice to have on the roster, but doesn't strike me as the type who will ever be a very good player at the position (assuming he plays as a mini-DT).

Your love for the dude is unfounded.

Nick Fairley - 6037", 291 lbs., 4.84 forty
Jared Crick - 6041", 286 lbs., 4.82 forty (projected)

Nick Fairley is a similar size and speed, only had only one statistically good year in college, and was drafted 13th overall. I think the only reason Fairley dropped to 13, is because when he talks he sounds like he has a serious breathing problem or something.

Not sure what difference you see between either player, other than the fact that Crick is a harder worker, a bit smarter, and was way more consistent at the college level.. Tom Nalen himself said on the radio last week, that the best trait a defensive lineman can have is to be a hard worker.

Like you, I don't really know how effective Crick will be in the NFL, but I think it's worth a shot considering what else will be available at 25. He's got the size, athletic ability, and stats, to be an impact player in the NFL at the UT position.

Shananahan
02-13-2012, 11:40 AM
I think the main difference between our opinions is I have watched almost every one of Crick's college games and you are basing your opinion on highlights, stats and measurements. He is absolutely nothing like Fairley as a player and his entire college career doesn't measure up to the one great year Fairley had.

pricejj
02-13-2012, 11:46 AM
I think the main difference between our opinions is I have watched almost every one of Crick's college games and you are basing your opinion on highlights, stats and measurements. He is absolutely nothing like Fairley as a player and his entire college career doesn't measure up to the one great year Fairley had.

Fairley was 23 years old and still only had 56 tackles. Crick was 20 and 21 putting up 70 tackles and 9.5 sacks. Yeah, I don't know, it's tough to tell...

I still think finding a good pass rushing UT is the Broncos most important need.

Drafting Kendall Wright would be awesome. He's a major speed burner, who has great hands, and gets open. Too bad he'll be long gone by #25.

gyldenlove
02-13-2012, 12:22 PM
I think the main difference between our opinions is I have watched almost every one of Crick's college games and you are basing your opinion on highlights, stats and measurements. He is absolutely nothing like Fairley as a player and his entire college career doesn't measure up to the one great year Fairley had.

Crick is such an effort guy, he gets his numbers from playing with great effort, not from his power or explosive first step - which is what Fairley has. Crick reminds me a lot of Trevor Laws.

CEH
02-13-2012, 12:50 PM
There is a good chance one of these guys will fall to 25:

1. Whitney Mercilus
2. Nick Perry
3. Melvin Ingram
4. Courtney Upshaw
5. Andre Branch

If Kirkpatrick, and Barron are off the board, and only Jenkins remains...who would you take between Andre Branch (DE) and Janoris Jenkins (CB)?

Not sure Denver would take a 3rd or 4th best DE over someone like Konz the top rated center. Jenkins has/had off the field issues and I know Denver dropped a few players off the board after the combine and interviews last year. Not sure how they will feel about Jenkins. I'd be intrigued with Ingram a versitile players that can get after the passer. I like Jerel Worthy of Mich State as well who if he can be coached up and put forth the effort has a ton of potential


I tend to wait till after FA and the combine to really dive into the draft.

pricejj
02-13-2012, 12:54 PM
Crick is such an effort guy, he gets his numbers from playing with great effort, not from his power or explosive first step - which is what Fairley has. Crick reminds me a lot of Trevor Laws.

Laws and Crick aren't even in the same league athletically. Laws is like a somewhat less athletic version of Stephen Paea.

NFLBRONCO
02-13-2012, 12:58 PM
Would you guys be open to trading #25 for 2013 #1 and a 2nd in 2012?

pricejj
02-13-2012, 12:59 PM
Not sure Denver would take a 3rd or 4th best DE over someone like Konz the top rated center. Jenkins has/had off the field issues and I know Denver dropped a few players off the board after the combine and interviews last year. Not sure how they will feel about Jenkins. I'd be intrigued with Ingram a versitile players that can get after the passer. I like Jerel Worthy of Mich State as well who if he can be coached up and put forth the effort has a ton of potential


I tend to wait till after FA and the combine to really dive into the draft.

1. I have Konz rated at #16 overall and higher than any DE on that list (except maybe Mercilus). I think Mercilus has all the tools to be a great 4-3 DE. Ingram would be an upgrade over Ayers...but doesn't have great speed coming off the edge.

2. Jerel Worthy didn't have very good numbers in college, so I immediately take him out of the 1st round. Alfred Williams called Worthy and Devon Still "long-steppers"...meaning that they don't really have the ability to change direction and get around Offensive Linemen very well.

lonestar
02-13-2012, 01:05 PM
I like Dre Kirkpatrick, Janoris Jenkins, and Mark Barron...if any of those guys fall to 25, I would draft them.

I have Stephon Gilmore rated just below those guys because he is projected to run in the 4.5's, plus he looks too much like Bob Marley. Dennard and Minnifield are 2nd rounders.

I like Andre Goodman, and am looking for a rookie starter in the 1st round. I don't like the chances of a guy like Gilmore starting ahead of either Bailey or Goodman next year. That's why I would probably wait, and possibly go after Coryell Judie later in the draft. He has good speed (4.38 forty, projected), and playmaking ability.

Janoris Jenkins has the best chance of falling to 25 IMO...if he does would you rather pick him or an OL/DL?



I just do to see how you could like Goodman, he is beat all the time for catches..

He may be a good CB but certainly not in this scheme..

If they are indeed deep in this draft how about we get two one to start for "goody" and the other to groom as champs replacement..

 

Ziggy
02-13-2012, 01:06 PM
I have Konz rated at #16 overall. Jerel Worthy didn't have very good numbers in college, so I immediately take him out of the 1st round. Alfred Williams called Worthy and Devon Still "long-steppers"...meaning that they don't really have the ability to change direction and get around Offensive Linemen very well.

Alfred Williams analysis of players is a joke. I loved how he played, but he's not even an average talent evaluator. He was all over Jarvis Moss's jockstrap claiming that he would be a great one for 2 straight years. He also said recently that the Broncos shouldn't even consider re-signing Bunkley because he didn't do much to help the defense this season.

However, I do agree with him on Still. He's more of a 5 tech in the NFL, skill-wise. Worthy is anything but that. He's has the most explosive first step of any tackle in this draft. You can argue his sack numbers, but he lived in the opponents backfield most of the last 2 seasons, despite being double teamed in nearly every passing down. When you watch MSU games, he flashes constantly. His closing speed isn't great, but he can beat interior lineman on a consistent basis with his first step.

Ziggy
02-13-2012, 01:08 PM
I have Konz rated at #16 overall. Jerel Worthy didn't have very good numbers in college, so I immediately take him out of the 1st round. Alfred Williams called Worthy and Devon Still "long-steppers"...meaning that they don't really have the ability to change direction and get around Offensive Linemen very well.

I agree with your rating on Konz. That's pretty close to where I have him rated. He's a 315 pound beast that excells in both the run and passing game. Centers aren't a popular first round pick, but I'd be happy with him at 25.

lonestar
02-13-2012, 01:08 PM
There is a good chance one of these guys will fall to 25:

1. Whitney Mercilus
2. Nick Perry
3. Melvin Ingram
4. Courtney Upshaw
5. Andre Branch

If Kirkpatrick, and Barron are off the board, and only Jenkins remains...who would you take between Andre Branch (DE) and Janoris Jenkins (CB)?

For the sake of us folks that do not follow college players all that much..

Could Y'ALL tag them with atleast what poistion they play..

iforgotmypassword
02-13-2012, 01:52 PM
Courtney Upshaw DE/OLB BAMA

Theres no way this guy falls to 25. He MAYBE had a chance before the National Championship, but not anymore.

As for the MLB talk, the U fans have a good point with Sean Spence. He made a seem-less transition to MLB this year. Also, Fox loves speed at LB, he would be a solid pick anywhere but the 1st.

I stick with my arguement for Konz C Wisconsin. You get yourself a beast Center and anchor of your line for the next 10-15 years. Sure we have some bigger needs, but there is no other player who you can be as sure on that they will lock down a position for you.

I'm gonna start looking more at Ingram, I feel like he could play a Justin Tuck type role, he may not start or be an every day players, but he could add a whole new dimension to the D.

Last player I looked at was Dre Kirpatrick, he'd a great fit for a 3-4 team. The most physical corner in the draft. But we've gotta pass on him, his skills just don't match what we're looking for.

I challenge everybody here to do some research on Lavonte David - OLB - Nebraska. Steal.

Drek
02-13-2012, 02:53 PM
Crick is such an effort guy, he gets his numbers from playing with great effort, not from his power or explosive first step - which is what Fairley has. Crick reminds me a lot of Trevor Laws.

I'd compare Crick to Kyle Vanden Bosch and Grant Wistrom, both former Huskers with similar dimensions and similar styles of play.

Like the two comparisons he's got enough raw talent/athleticism to compete at the NFL level but no so much that he could coast through college on speed and burst alone. He's developed some good technique and a great motor.

I wouldn't take him with our 1st rounder. We can get a higher potential player there. But I think its very possible he is available at our 2nd round pick and if so he would be an absolutely great addition to this team. Unlike Wistrom and Vanden Bosch he's got enough size to play a good amount in the middle too, letting us use more interior pass rushers much like the Giants use Tuck, Umenyora, and JPP in concert.

Imagine sending Doom, Crick, Ayers, and Miller out on 3rd and 10. Now picture what you could do if they had a solid vet at #2 CB behind them teamed with Champ, Harris, and a 1st round high talent level CB to buy them time.

BroncoBuff
02-13-2012, 04:25 PM
Fine to want the biggest and baddest, but I think this defense needs a leader. Hightower's that rare Patrick Willis type, we'd never regret it.

Downsides I've read, 1) below average man coverage, 2) questions about 2009 knee injury. I'm thinking man coverage is the least of his concerns, and he managed pretty damn well the last two seasons on the knee.

vancejohnson82
02-13-2012, 04:31 PM
Fine to want the biggest and baddest, but I think this defense needs a leader. Hightower's that rare Patrick Willis type, we'd never regret it.

Downsides I've read, 1) below average man coverage, 2) questions about 2009 knee injury. I'm thinking man coverage is the least of his concerns, and he managed pretty damn well the last two seasons on the knee.

I don't have a huge problem with that kind of a pick....however, if I have to watch our group of LBs following tight ends around three yards back, I'm going to be sick

Dedhed
02-13-2012, 04:50 PM
1. Burfict is rated as the #88 overall prospect by NFLdraftscout.So what?

2. Where are you going to play Spence? I hope you don't plan on cutting D.J., he had a great year.I absolutely would cut DJ if we couldn't trade him. He had a great year comparatively speaking. He's been an annual underachiever, and is an utter liability against passing teams. Spence would be an immediate upgrade.

Dedhed
02-13-2012, 04:55 PM
Fine to want the biggest and baddest, but I think this defense needs a leader. Hightower's that rare Patrick Willis type, we'd never regret it.

Downsides I've read, 1) below average man coverage, 2) questions about 2009 knee injury. I'm thinking man coverage is the least of his concerns, and he managed pretty damn well the last two seasons on the knee.
You keep trying to compare Hightower to Willis, and it just is not there.

Dedhed
02-13-2012, 04:58 PM
I don't have a huge problem with that kind of a pick....however, if I have to watch our group of LBs following tight ends around three yards back, I'm going to be sick
Even when they're in position, which is rare, they can't make a play. DJ against Pitt with OT on the line is a perfect example. He's in an OK spot, but in 8 years hasn't learned to play the ball with the upfield hand. Touchdown Pittsburgh.

Then there's NE where he's dropping in the complete wrong direction leaving Gronk completely uncovered. It's brutal.

lonestar
02-13-2012, 05:06 PM
So what?

I absolutely would cut DJ if we couldn't trade him. He had a great year comparatively speaking. He's been an annual underachiever, and is an utter liability against passing teams. Spence would be an immediate upgrade.

for that matter most of his tackles are dragging someone down from behoind after they have gained 3+ yards..

Not many stuffs or tackle for a loss.. probably count those on two hands over his career..

for the money he is making cut his ass and get two more players.. maybe 4-6 if they are rookies..

vancejohnson82
02-13-2012, 05:13 PM
Even when they're in position, which is rare, they can't make a play. DJ against Pitt with OT on the line is a perfect example. He's in an OK spot, but in 8 years hasn't learned to play the ball with the upfield hand. Touchdown Pittsburgh.

Then there's NE where he's dropping in the complete wrong direction leaving Gronk completely uncovered. It's brutal.

I think you are a little harsh on DJ....he is DEFINITELY not an elite LB, but he's not the complete liability you are making him out to be. He struggles in pass coverage, as does every other LB we have. I'm pretty sure Joe Mays found out somewhere around Week 15 that opposing teams were actually allowed to throw forward passes. He was brutal

It's funny because we have a rather small group, that are supposed to be equipped to hang around in pass coverage. Their speed is there but they have NO IDEA how to disrupt patterns off the line.

lonestar
02-13-2012, 05:17 PM
I think you are a little harsh on DJ....he is DEFINITELY not an elite LB, but he's not the complete liability you are making him out to be. He struggles in pass coverage, as does every other LB we have. I'm pretty sure Joe Mays found out somewhere around Week 15 that opposing teams were actually allowed to throw forward passes. He was brutal

It's funny because we have a rather small group, that are supposed to be equipped to hang around in pass coverage. Their speed is there but they have NO IDEA how to disrupt patterns off the line.

IIRC he is making about 6+ million a year.. You want great play out of those money guys not just a bunch of tackles after they have made the first down..

vancejohnson82
02-13-2012, 05:22 PM
IIRC he is making about 6+ million a year.. You want great play out of those money guys not just a bunch of tackles after they have made the first down..

true...he is overpaid based off of inflated production numbers. HOwever, with the amount of holes on this team, and the lack of depth at the position, we need DJ on the roster

Lestat
02-13-2012, 05:24 PM
don't really get all the knocking on Hightower, he's gonna be a very good pro LB. i think most feel he's only a 3-4 type but he'll play well in either defense.

pricejj
02-13-2012, 05:36 PM
For the sake of us folks that do not follow college players all that much..

Could Y'ALL tag them with atleast what position they play..

Well, here's my updated prospect list, with a quick description by each prospect.

2012 NFL Prospect List:

1. Andrew Luck (QB) - Best prospect ever scouted...need I say more.
2. Robert Griffin (QB) - Great accuracy, speed, and arm strength. Elite QB prospect, better than Vick.
3. Matt Kalil (OT) - Best OT in the draft. Some claim he is the best OT in years...I wouldn't go that far.
4. Quenton Coples (DT) - Versatile DT/DE. Great production, dominated at the college level...similar to JPP.
5. Justin Blackmon (WR)- Great blend of size, speed, and strength, catches everything, not quite Julio or A.J.
6. Reilly Reiff (OT) - Another great OT, faster footspeed than Kalil, and might be better.
7. Morris Claiborne (CB) - Could be a shutdown Corner, needs to turn in a good 40 time at the combine.
8. Jonathan Martin (OT) - Will be a good NFL LT...not as quick as Kalil, or Reiff.
9. David DeCastro (G) - One of the best guards in years, can play Center.
10. Peter Konz (C) - Best Center prospect in several years, better than Pouncey.
11. Mike Adams (OT) - 6'7" monster who would be an instant upgrade over Franklin at RT.
12. Cordy Glenn (OG) - Enormous Guard who can play Tackle...good feet.
13. Kendall Wright (WR) - Speedburner with great hands...similar to Steve Smith. Could run in 4.3's at combine.
14. Andre Branch (DE) - Good size 6'5", can bend a corner and pressure the QB... Giants DL prototype.
15. Jared Crick (DT) - Great production, good size and speed, hard worker...similar to Kyle Vanden Bosch...versatile.
16. Melvin Ingram (DE/OLB) - He is what we want Ayers to be...a versatile pass rusher who is good against the run.
17. Courtney Upshaw (DE/OLB) - Can be hysically dominating, with lots of moves, but is a tweener.
18. Michael Floyd (WR) - Great hands, and size, only 4.5 speed.
19. Janoris Jenkins (CB) - Good in press-man against elite WR's, slightly dimunitive, could run in the 4.3's at combine.
20. Dre Kirkpatrick (CB) - Big, physical Corner, with good speed...doesn't have fluid hips...may be a Safety.
21. Mark Barron (SS) - Great Safety prospect, with leadership, and coverage skills. Extremely physical.
22. Trent Richardson (RB) - Great size and speed for an RB. Hesitates in the hole sometimes. Gamebreaker.
23. Whitney Mercilus (DE) - One year wonder, has everything you look for in a pass rusher...lots of sacks and TFL's.
24. Kelechi Osemele (OG/OT) - Most physically imposing guy in the draft...can play Tackle.
25. Dont’a Hightower (MLB) - Leader of famed Bama D, can cover, and rush the passer, not elite speed (4.7 forty).
26. Fletcher Cox (DT) - Can penetrate, but didn't dominate...looks and plays like a skinny Marcel Dareus.
27. Devon Still (DT) - Similar numbers to Cox, but 2 years older. Inconsistent until Sr. season, then faded at the end.
28. Michael Brockers (DT) - Sophomore...similar in size and stats to Ty Warren, needs better pass rush.
29. Vinny Curry (DE/OLB) - Check out this DE.
30. Orson Charles (TE) - Is he better than Fleener?
31. Bobbie Massie (OT) - Great size, good speed...better OT prospect than Franklin.
32. Jerel Worthy (DT) - Taking a look at this guy, not sure why...



That's how I would pick 'em if I was the Broncos. Feel free to flame away.

Drek
02-13-2012, 05:36 PM
Fine to want the biggest and baddest, but I think this defense needs a leader. Hightower's that rare Patrick Willis type, we'd never regret it.

Downsides I've read, 1) below average man coverage, 2) questions about 2009 knee injury. I'm thinking man coverage is the least of his concerns, and he managed pretty damn well the last two seasons on the knee.

Hightower is going to a 3-4 team where he will be a ILB/OLB hybrid. He doesn't have the lateral mobility to support sideline to sideline in the run like you want out of a first round 4-3 MLB and he can't cover making him a two down guy in a 4-3. You don't spent first round picks on two down guys. Meanwhile he is possibly the best 3-4 OLB/ILB option in this draft. He's going to go pretty early as long as he has a good combine.

He's nothing like Patrick Willis from a skill set standpoint. Willis is smaller but a far superior athlete. Hightower needs to be mixing it up at the LOS, either filling gaps and stuffing running lanes or getting after the QB.

There is no Patrick Willis in this draft. There hasn't been a Patrick Willis since Patrick Willis.

iforgotmypassword
02-13-2012, 05:39 PM
You keep trying to compare Hightower to Willis, and it just is not there.

He's no Willis, I agree. But he is an Al Wilson type.

BroncoBuff
02-13-2012, 06:06 PM
Guys, please. The comparison was to Willis as a leader, shouldn't have to explain it, it's pretty clear.

I get your analysis Drek, but I thought his athleticism was his best feature, he lines up at mike and will, all over the place. Although I see there in the pricejj post he lacks elite speed.

I really think we need a tone-setter, a leader to rally around. Worked for the Tide.

vancejohnson82
02-13-2012, 06:14 PM
Guys, please. The comparison was to Willis as a leader, shouldn't have to explain it, it's pretty clear.

I get your analysis Drek, but I thought his athleticism was his best feature, he lines up at mike and will, all over the place. Although I see there in the pricejj post he lacks elite speed.

I really think we need a tone-setter, a leader to rally around. Worked for the Tide.

agreed.....it was obvious when Dawkins went down that there was nobody ready to fill this kind of role

iforgotmypassword
02-13-2012, 06:26 PM
Donta is a player I can see dropping also. God I hope he does, take konz with 1 and Donta with 2. Wow, now I'm just dreamin.

oubronco
02-13-2012, 06:45 PM
Donta is a player I can see dropping also. God I hope he does, take konz with 1 and Donta with 2. Wow, now I'm just dreamin.

I like that dream

Missouribronc
02-13-2012, 07:34 PM
He's no Willis, I agree. But he is an Al Wilson type.

He's not Willis and he won't go in the Top 12 like Willis did, retrospectively, (which I HATE to do) Willis should have been a top 5.

Absolutely right when you say he's more in the mold of Al Wilson. I think he can play in a 4-3. Like I said in another thread I hope Irving can be the guy, but if we get Burfict or Hightower, I'm cool with that too.

Any defensive player that LSU or Alabama behind his name is A-Okay with me.

Bronco Rob
02-24-2012, 10:22 AM
http://denver.sbnation.com/denver-broncos/2012/2/24/2821605/nfl-scouting-combine-2012-results-mock-draft