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gunns
01-19-2012, 04:18 PM
well golly gee Gomer. I guess congress wasn't involved in that decision? I guess the US did all this in secret? I guess the international community wasn't involved?

You are comparing apples to oranges.

This is what I can't stand about lefty morons. They pull the Bush crap out and say "well look what HE did." I DON'T CARE WHAT BUSH DID. We are talking about BARAK OBAMA and HIS administration.

Bush was a ****up, yes. That doesn't change the fact that BO is a criminal and a complete ****up.

We know, you never said anything along these lines about him...and Cheney. Didn't have this passion about them. What's more criminal than being responsible for thousands of lives lost? Right along the lines of terrorists. Plus the fact the people that started this whole economical mess. And I'm still confused by the continuing but unproven statements that BO is a criminal. Oh and I especially love the broad statements presented as fact with no links.

That One Guy
01-19-2012, 04:20 PM
People who think the deficit is the biggest problem facing the USA, even though interest and inflation are low:

Wealthy elite

People who think a lack of jobs is the biggest issue:

Everyone else



(this is an actual stat I just read in Harper's, I'll see if I can pull it up)

I'd rather the gov't fix the deficit more than fix jobs.

I'm not rich.

BABronco
01-19-2012, 04:21 PM
I guess you just forgave and or plain forgot or have ignored all the crappola Obama's perpetrated on us huh? The media sure has. See no evil, speak no evil or hear no evil. Obama is a God or something like that right? Total an innocent man of the plain folks isn't he?
So just gonna ignore the link? Sanctorum is a tool. He is not too much different from Gingrinch who is not too much different from Romney.. who sure as **** isnt that different from Obama. But go ahead. Keep throwing your fit.

Mile High Mojoe
01-19-2012, 04:25 PM
So just gonna ignore the link? Sanctorum is a tool. He is not too much different from Gingrinch who is not too much different from Romney.. who sure as **** isnt that didnt from Obama. But go ahead. Keep throwing your fit.

Simply answer... I'll take my tool over yours for a whole host of reasons. Some of which I've already stated but you've ignored. There's just no getting through to some people, have a nice day.

BABronco
01-19-2012, 04:31 PM
Simply answer... I'll take my tool over yours for a whole host of reasons. Some of which I've already stated but you've ignored. There's just no getting through to some people, have a nice day.

All your saying is Obama this Obama that blah blah blah Obama is the devil. Lame. Im not talking about Obama. Im talking about Santorum being a horrible candidate.

TheReverend
01-19-2012, 04:37 PM
I'd rather the gov't fix the deficit more than fix jobs.

I'm not rich.

I'd rather the government took MASSIVE loans out from every nation we can get to pick up the phone, then spent that money on massive infrastructure overhaul, energy and weapons R&D, free healthcare and education (no liberal), and then turned around and said, "What money?"

That One Guy
01-19-2012, 05:17 PM
I'd rather the government took MASSIVE loans out from every nation we can get to pick up the phone, then spent that money on massive infrastructure overhaul, energy and weapons R&D, free healthcare and education (no liberal), and then turned around and said, "What money?"

LOL

Well I'll reconsider if that's one of the options.

Aside from that though...

Tombstone RJ
01-19-2012, 05:45 PM
We know, you never said anything along these lines about him...and Cheney. Didn't have this passion about them. What's more criminal than being responsible for thousands of lives lost? Right along the lines of terrorists. Plus the fact the people that started this whole economical mess. And I'm still confused by the continuing but unproven statements that BO is a criminal. Oh and I especially love the broad statements presented as fact with no links.

really, you sure about this? Please do a search of all my posts on the Bush administration, tell me what you find....

and when you research BO's background then get back to me about him, will yah? Try starting with the Chicago Democratic Party Machine, thanks...

:wave:

houghtam
01-19-2012, 05:56 PM
Simply answer... I'll take my tool over yours for a whole host of reasons. Some of which I've already stated but you've ignored. There's just no getting through to some people, have a nice day.

I love how the conversation went like this:

MHM - Vote Santorum!
BAB - Santorum's a crook.
MHM - No he's not! Link?
BAB - *link*
MHM - Santorum's better than Obama!

Classic.

Willynowei
01-19-2012, 06:13 PM
I trust Ron Paul. He has the respect of a veteran and he's extremely smart. He is almost always right and has proven it for over 20 years.
I feel like is the only true leader in the republican party this election.

He talks about economic concepts and policy questions like they are simple algebraic equations. There are scholars infinitely smarter than Ron Paul who wouldn't dare make some of the comments he did in that video.

And if smart was what it took to make a president, then there'd be no point in challenging Obama, the guy graduated top of his class at Harvard Law.

houghtam
01-19-2012, 07:12 PM
He talks about economic concepts and policy questions like they are simple algebraic equations. There are scholars infinitely smarter than Ron Paul who wouldn't dare make some of the comments he did in that video.

And if smart was what it took to make a president, then there'd be no point in challenging Obama, the guy graduated top of his class at Harvard Law.

That's what I don't get about the Ron Paul camp. I mean, the guy's smart, no doubts there. But his educational background and most of his experience is in medicine and health care. I think you would be stupid NOT to hear what he has to say on that subject, but anything else, this guy has no more experience than the next guy.

Everyone also likes to classify him as an against the grain, outside the system type, but I'd believe it when I saw it. He's been in congress for over 20 years.

It's not going to matter though, he is and always will be a fringe candidate, and even if he did end up being an against the grain type, I wouldn't vote for him because he stands for very little economically that I do.

That One Guy
01-19-2012, 07:31 PM
That's what I don't get about the Ron Paul camp. I mean, the guy's smart, no doubts there. But his educational background and most of his experience is in medicine and health care. I think you would be stupid NOT to hear what he has to say on that subject, but anything else, this guy has no more experience than the next guy.

Everyone also likes to classify him as an against the grain, outside the system type, but I'd believe it when I saw it. He's been in congress for over 20 years.

It's not going to matter though, he is and always will be a fringe candidate, and even if he did end up being an against the grain type, I wouldn't vote for him because he stands for very little economically that I do.

I personally think Ron Paul is just getting the fan club built up and popularizing the name. Rand Paul can play slightly less crazy and maybe actually have a chance to win some day.

BABronco
01-19-2012, 07:41 PM
Everyone also likes to classify him as an against the grain, outside the system type, but I'd believe it when I saw it. He's been in congress for over 20 years.


Yeah 20 years, voting consistent, defending liberty, predicting the current finical crisis and commonly being a sole 434-1 vote. Not budging to his own party for favors ect... Lobbyist don't really like the guy, the bankers hate him, the media doesn't like him, and the military loves him. That works for me.

BABronco
01-19-2012, 07:45 PM
”I’ve worked at 7 presidential campaigns. I’ve co-authored books with presidents. I’ve interviewed 6 or 7 of the presidents and first ladies and 19 of their children. I’ve served in the white house for one president and advisory to two presidents. I have never served anyone more INcorruptible than Ron Paul.”

Doug Wead on Fox News -Presidential Historian and Senior Adviser to the Ron Paul campaign (used to work for George W. Bush).

Tonights coverage of RP

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/7MWcp6vj61Y" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

His best debate by far.

houghtam
01-19-2012, 08:44 PM
Yeah 20 years, voting consistent, defending liberty, predicting the current finical crisis and commonly being a sole 434-1 vote. Not budging to his own party for favors ect... Lobbyist don't really like the guy, the bankers hate him, the media doesn't like him, and the military loves him. That works for me.

I could care less who he likes or who likes him. Real or not, I don't agree with over 50% of his politics, so there's no way I'd vote for him. I'm sure he's a nice guy, but...no thanks.

Pony Boy
01-19-2012, 09:58 PM
I'd rather the government took MASSIVE loans out from every nation we can get to pick up the phone, then spent that money on massive infrastructure overhaul, energy and weapons R&D, free healthcare and education (no liberal), and then turned around and said, "What money?"

I getting hard to teach our kids and grandkids that communism doesn't work when we've mortgaged their future with the Chinese.

SonOfLe-loLang
01-20-2012, 12:10 AM
I getting hard to teach our kids and grandkids that communism doesn't work when we've mortgaged their future with the Chinese.

Communism doesn't work just like any other pure ideology cant. And while China has some communist aspects to its government, its really its own special thing. And our economy and China's cant exist without each other. We didnt mortgage anything to them.

Welcome to the new world order

SonOfLe-loLang
01-20-2012, 12:11 AM
I personally think Ron Paul is just getting the fan club built up and popularizing the name. Rand Paul can play slightly less crazy and maybe actually have a chance to win some day.

Rand is just as crazy...and seems a lil less smart

Taco John
01-20-2012, 12:12 AM
Great video:
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/eUXNfk4MMlI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

DAN_BRONCO_FAN
01-20-2012, 12:14 AM
what is the purpose of this thread no one is gonna go away from their pov no matter how stupid it is

Taco John
01-20-2012, 12:17 AM
what is the purpose of this thread no one is gonna go away from their pov no matter how stupid it is

Discussion

DHallblows
01-20-2012, 12:24 AM
what is the purpose of this thread no one is gonna go away from their pov no matter how stupid it is

Which is very different compared to any other thread ever started on any forum ever...

Taco John
01-20-2012, 12:26 AM
I climb mountains for the sake of the journey. I discuss politics for much the same reason.

DAN_BRONCO_FAN
01-20-2012, 12:35 AM
ill make it simple the us gov is stuck on stupid

alkemical
01-20-2012, 06:01 AM
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2006/09/20/20-most-corrupt-members-o_n_29863.html

there is a reason many in Pennsylvania didn't want him back.

He's a crooked douchebag. I'm glad he's gone.

alkemical
01-20-2012, 06:02 AM
I guess you just forgave and or plain forgot or have ignored all the crappola Obama's perpetrated on us huh? The media sure has. See no evil, speak no evil or hear no evil. Obama is a God or something like that right? Total an innocent man of the plain folks isn't he?

What does this have to do with Santorum being a ****ty (pun intended!) candidate?

oubronco
01-20-2012, 08:25 AM
Dangerous conversation

███████ everything ████ ███ █ is █ █████ ██ fine █████ ██████ ███. ████'█ ██ ██████. The ████ ███ █ government ████ ███ ██ knows ████ ███ best █ █████ ██. Go █ █████ ██ █ back █████ ██. To █ █████ ██ sleep.

bendog
01-20-2012, 09:29 AM
For some of us, a reason to vote gop

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/09/01/obama-administration-reverses-course-forbids-sale-antique-m-rifles/

Of course it's a trade off. Regulating individuals v. regulating Wall St.

DarkHorse30
01-20-2012, 09:49 AM
ANY gop candidate will wipe the floor with Obama in this election. BHO is an idiot, and has wrecked more jobs in his idiocy than even Carter did....that's quite a feat of doofishness.

BABronco
01-20-2012, 10:23 AM
ANY gop candidate will wipe the floor with Obama in this election. BHO is an idiot, and has wrecked more jobs in his idiocy than even Carter did....that's quite a feat of doofishness.

INCORRECT and incorrect. Santorum would get destroyed. Romney would sound the same but it would ultimately be labeled a tie... and a tie for Romney is a win for Obama. Gingrich would be interesting. However, he has many more skeletons in his closet which the dems would attack. Plus he sure won't be getting any indy votes or cross over dem votes. Ron Paul vs Obama would be epic. Paul actually knows his stuff and would actually have the best chance against Obama. He is currently leading the indy vote by far.

SonOfLe-loLang
01-20-2012, 10:30 AM
INCORRECT and incorrect. Santorum would get destroyed. Romney would sound the same but it would ultimately be labeled a tie... and a tie for Romney is a win for Obama. Gingrich would be interesting. However, he has many more skeletons in his closet which the dems would attack. Plus he sure won't be getting any indy votes or cross over dem votes. Ron Paul vs Obama would be epic. Paul actually knows his stuff and would actually have the best chance against Obama. He is currently leading the indy vote by far.

Gingrich has less than zero chance of beating Obama.

bendog
01-20-2012, 10:35 AM
Gingrich has less than zero chance of beating Obama.

Mitt wins in SC and Newt goes home while Rick continues his lonely quest to force rape victims to give birth.

BABronco
01-20-2012, 10:54 AM
Gingrich has less than zero chance of beating Obama.

I said the debate would be interesting. I didn't say he would beat Obama. I don't think he would beat him in a debate and he surely won't beat him in the general.

That One Guy
01-20-2012, 10:55 AM
For some of us, a reason to vote gop

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/09/01/obama-administration-reverses-course-forbids-sale-antique-m-rifles/

Of course it's a trade off. Regulating individuals v. regulating Wall St.

Sometimes I hate our Federal Government.

From the link:

Asked why the M1s pose a threat, the State Department spokesman referred questions to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. ATF representatives said they would look into the question Monday afternoon, but on Wednesday they referred questions to the Justice Department. DOJ spokesman Dean Boyd referred questions back to the State Department.

...

The White House referred questions on the issue to the Pentagon, which referred questions to the U.S. Embassy in South Korea, which deferred back to the State Department.



LOL

bendog
01-20-2012, 11:01 AM
Sometimes I hate our Federal Government.

From the link:

Asked why the M1s pose a threat, the State Department spokesman referred questions to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. ATF representatives said they would look into the question Monday afternoon, but on Wednesday they referred questions to the Justice Department. DOJ spokesman Dean Boyd referred questions back to the State Department.

...

The White House referred questions on the issue to the Pentagon, which referred questions to the U.S. Embassy in South Korea, which deferred back to the State Department.



LOL

It's beyond annoying. Though I have nothing good to say about the gop either.

Tombstone RJ
01-20-2012, 11:10 AM
For some of us, a reason to vote gop

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/09/01/obama-administration-reverses-course-forbids-sale-antique-m-rifles/

Of course it's a trade off. Regulating individuals v. regulating Wall St.

I'd absolutely love to have one of these...

bendog
01-20-2012, 11:20 AM
I'd absolutely love to have one of these...

yeah, I'd like a carbine. It'd be pretty useless for hunting anything larger than what a .223 does with more accuracy and cheaper, but still I remember shooting one back in the late 60s with a guy whose dad had one he got on surplus. Not worthless for home defense either. And a rancher could use it for coyote, though I'd guess Ruger's are cheaper than what the carbines would sell for. Damned annoying the S. Koreans probably will now melt down 80-90 thousand of them.

M-1 was a great rifle, but I wouldn't have a use for one. Heavy and not particularly user friendly unless you went through basic training sometime between 1942 and 1960. I should have gotten a 1903 twenty years ago when they were still around. I don't hunt deer, so I'd have no use for it beyond target shooting, but still it was intersting historically.

That One Guy
01-20-2012, 11:26 AM
yeah, I'd like a carbine. It'd be pretty useless for hunting anything larger than what a .223 does with more accuracy and cheaper, but still I remember shooting one back in the late 60s with a guy whose dad had one he got on surplus. Not worthless for home defense either. And a rancher could use it for coyote, though I'd guess Ruger's are cheaper than what the carbines would sell for. Damned annoying the S. Koreans probably will now melt down 80-90 thousand of them.

M-1 was a great rifle, but I wouldn't have a use for one. Heavy and not particularly user friendly unless you went through basic training sometime between 1942 and 1960. I should have gotten a 1903 twenty years ago when they were still around. I don't hunt deer, so I'd have no use for it beyond target shooting, but still it was intersting historically.

It's all about the history of them, for me. If those were actually used in the war, that'd be amazing.

All through growing up, I heard the stories about the Tower of London. Once I was there and saw the passage ways the condemned would walk through, the hair stood up and I got goosebumps. To stand at the top of a 4000 year old ziggurat and look out upon an ancient city did the same thing. It just makes it real in ways reading about or watching movies never can.

DarkHorse30
01-20-2012, 01:16 PM
CHANGE.....it only works once, BHO

24champ
01-20-2012, 01:24 PM
Bob McDonnell endorses Mitt Romney.

I hear Rubio will likely endorse next week or so.

brother love
01-20-2012, 01:26 PM
Gingrich has less than zero chance of beating Obama.
He would mop the floor with Obama in any debate.

BroncoFanatic
01-20-2012, 01:29 PM
He would mop the floor with Obama in any debate.

And he would also govern from the left. His voting record shows him to be just another big government gasbag. More of the same

brother love
01-20-2012, 01:35 PM
And he would also govern from the left. His voting record shows him to be just another big government gasbag. More of the same. Who as speaker of the house was able to work with Bill Clinton to get some good things by compromise, something that is greatly needed in our government right now. I don't see why you think he would govern from the left.

TonyR
01-20-2012, 01:41 PM
ANY gop candidate will wipe the floor with Obama in this election.

Why bother to post in a thread on a topic you're so clearly misinformed about? Not even Fox News would make such a stupid statement.

DarkHorse30
01-20-2012, 01:43 PM
Why bother to post in a thread on a topic you're so clearly misinformed about? Not even Fox News would make such a stupid statement.

**** you and the horse you rode in on. You're stupid....AND dumb....AND a misinformed gorgak head.

BroncoInferno
01-20-2012, 01:43 PM
**** you and the horse you rode in on.

He's right. Your political comments are generally pretty retarded, factless, and misinformed.

Tombstone RJ
01-20-2012, 02:21 PM
Everyone here is a bawdy, craven, fen-sucked, milk-livered, unmuzzled, toad-spotted, giglet nut-hook with a heavy dose of errant droning.

so take that.

DarkHorse30
01-20-2012, 02:34 PM
I concur.

Mile High Mojoe
01-20-2012, 05:10 PM
Why bother to post in a thread on a topic you're so clearly misinformed about? Not even Fox News would make such a stupid statement.

http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h318/gomilehigh/CeramicSOupSandwichPlate-GHK-College-fb-28662973-1.jpg

That One Guy
01-20-2012, 08:36 PM
Well, I guess the election is settled. We can go ahead and close up this thread.

Chuck Norris endorses Newt (http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/chuck-norris-endorses-newt-gingrich-224223391.html)

DAN_BRONCO_FAN
01-20-2012, 08:44 PM
<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/ttxpjV1e_XY" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

TheReverend
01-20-2012, 08:44 PM
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h318/gomilehigh/CeramicSOupSandwichPlate-GHK-College-fb-28662973-1.jpg


http://menversus.com/images/bertstare.jpg

Does that make ANY sense to anyone else...?

houghtam
01-20-2012, 08:57 PM
http://menversus.com/images/bertstare.jpg

Does that make ANY sense to anyone else...?

Just checking in to see if this thread's still going.

Yep.

Man, you'd think this is an election year.

BroncoFanatic
01-20-2012, 08:59 PM
Chuck Norris should get a clue. Yeah I said it. Chuck's a good guy, but clearly needs to do some research. The left ought to love Gingrich.

A simple internet search on Gingrich turned up these:

04/02/1987 – He cosponsored the 1987 Fairness Doctrine
10/22/1991 – He voted for an amendment that would create a National Police Corps.
03/—/1993 – He Voted for sending $1.6 Billion in foreign aid to Russia.
11/19/1993 – He voted for the NAFTA Implementation Act.
11/27/1994 – He supported the GATT Treaty giving sovereignty to the U.N.
08/27/1995 – He suggests that drug smuggling should carry a death sentence.
04/25/1996 – Voted for the single largest increase on Federal education spending ($3.5 Billion)
04/10/1995 – He supported Federal taxdollars being spent on abortions.
06/01/1996 – He helped a Democrat switch parties in an attempt to defeat constitutionali st Ron Paul in the 1996 election.
09/25/1996 – Introduced H.R. 4170, demanded life-sentence or execution for someone bringing 2 ounces of marijuana across the border.
01/22/1997 – Congress gave him a record-setting $300,000 fine for ethical wrongdoing.
11/29/2006 – He said that free speech should be curtailed in order to fight terrorism. Wants to stop terrorists from using the internet. Called for a “serious debate about the 1st Amendment.”
11/29/2006 – He called for a “Geneva Convention for terrorists” so it would be clear who the Constitution need not apply to.
02/15/2007 – He supported Bush’s proposal for mandatory carbon caps.
09/28/2008 – Says if he were in office, he would have reluctantly voted for the $700B TARP bailout.
10/01/2008 – Says in an article that TARP was a “workout, not a bailout.”
12/08/2008 – He was paid $300,000 by Freddie Mac to halt Congress from bringing necessary reform.
03/31/2009 – Says we should have Singapore-style drug tests for Americans.
07/30/2010 – Says that Iraq was just step one in defeating the “Axis of Evil”.
08/03/2010 – Advocates attacks on Iran & North Korea.
08/16/2010 – Opposes property rights of the mosque owner in NYC.
11/15/2010 – He defended Romneycare
12/05/2010 – He said that a website owner should be considered an enemy combatant, hunted down and executed, for publishing leaked government memos.
01/30/2011 – He lobbied for ethanol subsidies.
01/30/2011 – He suggested that flex-fuel vehicles be mandated for Americans.
02/13/2011 – He criticized Obama for sending less U.S. taxdollars to Egypt.
02/15/2011 – His book said that he believes man-made climate-change and advocated creating “a new endowment for conservation and the environment.”

TonyR
01-20-2012, 09:11 PM
**** you and the horse you rode in on.

Just because you don't like Obama doesn't mean he's going to be easily beat. You're not 12 years old, you need to think a little more critically now that you're an adult. Obama is an incumbent with a strong political machine and a huge war chest. Once the GOP has their nominee that machine and that money will go to work. Nobody is going to beat him easily, and most likely nobody is going to beat him at all. And if the economy continues to slowly improve and Europe doesn't crater he should win fairly comfortably.

TheReverend
01-20-2012, 09:16 PM
Just because you don't like Obama doesn't mean he's going to be easily beat. You're not 12 years old, you need to think a little more critically now that you're an adult. Obama is an incumbent with a strong political machine and a huge war chest. Once the GOP has their nominee that machine and that money will go to work. Nobody is going to beat him easily, and most likely nobody is going to beat him at all. And if the economy continues to slowly improve and Europe doesn't crater he should win fairly comfortably.

Let's be real (coming from a COMPLETELY non-partisan person who frankly doesn't even believe in the political process), if the GOP can nominate anyone even moderately functional, they'll wipe the ****ing floor with Obama.

SonOfLe-loLang
01-20-2012, 09:20 PM
Let's be real (coming from a COMPLETELY non-partisan person who frankly doesn't even believe in the political process), if the GOP can nominate anyone even moderately functional, they'll wipe the ****ing floor with Obama.

Perhaps true, but unfortunately for them, they dont have anyone moderately functional. Also, the Obama created within the right wing echo chamber is vastly different from the actual one. I was watching Real Time earlier and they played a Fox News clip about how Ron Paul mentioned that infiltrating Osama's hideway wasn't a great idea....then the Fox News guy said it sounded like something Dennis Kucinich would say...or Barack Obama. Last I checked...Obama was the guy who OK'd that raid. Just a small example of **** like that.

TheReverend
01-20-2012, 09:22 PM
Perhaps true, but unfortunately for them, they dont have anyone moderately functional. Also, the Obama created within the right wing echo chamber is vastly different from the actual one. I was watching Real Time earlier and they played a Fox News clip about how Ron Paul mentioned that infiltrating Osama's hideway wasn't a great idea....then the Fox News guy said it sounded like something Dennis Kucinich would say...or Barack Obama. Last I checked...Obama was the guy who OK'd that raid. Just a small example of **** like that.

Meh. If you don't want spoilers stop reading.

But they'll nominate Mitt. And he'll win.

More spoilers?

The reality is that it won't make a lick of difference for 99% of America.

SonOfLe-loLang
01-20-2012, 09:22 PM
Meh. If you don't want spoilers stop reading.

But they'll nominate Mitt. And he'll win.

More spoilers?

The reality is that it won't make a lick of difference for 99% of America.

Agree and Agree

** oh wait, i dont think Romeny will win...i think he'll win the republican Nom. I think he's probably too noxious and out of touch...conservatives don't like him. But should he win, i agree it'd make no diff.

TonyR
01-20-2012, 09:32 PM
...they'll wipe the ****ing floor with Obama.

If you think Romney is going to "wipe the floor" with Obama then you should consider joining DarkHorse on the sidelines for this topic. Can Romney win? Possible. But I have a hard time seeing a guy as flimsy as Romney, who isn't even liked very much by his own party (particularly the right wing conservative base), beating an incumbent. Obama isn't nearly as week of a candidate as some want to think, and an improving economy will only make him stronger.

Cito Pelon
01-20-2012, 09:36 PM
15% tax rate Romney will have a hard time justifying that 15% considering he wants to keep his 15% the same while the $60k a year family pays 12% and he wants to keep that the same.

And Romney wants to reduce the corporate tax rate. I see many top corporations pay less in taxes than they pay their top executives, so there's something wrong with that formula.

TheReverend
01-20-2012, 09:39 PM
If you think Romney is going to "wipe the floor" with Obama then you should consider joining DarkHorse on the sidelines for this topic. Can Romney win? Possible. But I have a hard time seeing a guy as flimsy as Romney, who isn't even liked very much by his own party (particularly the right wing conservative base), beating an incumbent. Obama isn't nearly as week of a candidate as some want to think, and an improving economy will only make him stronger.

I think you underestimate or out of touch with how hated Obama is up there in mega liberal Philly (don't deny it, I remember and was JUST living there a couple years ago). I literally don't know ANYONE who likes him. Makes Bush look like Reagan. And Romney isn't a disaster like Kerry.

Say "incumbent" all day. The reality is that this year all the GOP needs to do is show up.

Paladin
01-20-2012, 09:55 PM
Romney will get hs arse kicked, and then flip so they can kick the other side.

Cito Pelon
01-20-2012, 09:56 PM
The GOP has to do more than show up. The Tea Party has been exposed as nothing but reactionary. Even Jim Boehner is trying to marginalize them.

Chris
01-20-2012, 10:03 PM
I highly doubt Romney would have threatened to veto SOPA and PIPA, for one thing. He is big business personified.

houghtam
01-20-2012, 10:18 PM
I think you underestimate or out of touch with how hated Obama is up there in mega liberal Philly (don't deny it, I remember and was JUST living there a couple years ago). I literally don't know ANYONE who likes him. Makes Bush look like Reagan. And Romney isn't a disaster like Kerry.

Say "incumbent" all day. The reality is that this year all the GOP needs to do is show up.

No.

I'd be willing to make any reasonable avatar bet that it doesn't matter who the Republicans put up, they'll get beaten in a landslide.

When faced with the decision, all the people who voted for Obama the first time will say exactly what I will, which is "Hmmm, I've been thoroughly disappointed with Obama, but I'll be damned if I'm going to vote for the other guy." Not to mention, Mitt Romney can't debate his way out of a wet paper bag. If it weren't for Rick Perry, he'd look like a bigger clown at the podium than he already does.

What's the approval rating for Congress now? 8%? The Republicans have become the party of no, and that's not a smart way to win an election.

Edit: I, too, am almost completely fed up with the American political scene. Nobody is in it for the regular guy. Like I said in a previous post, they're only in it to get re-elected. Day 1 on the job: celebrate. Day 2: Let's get started on the re-election campaign. **** that.

No one hears my voice because I'm not a lobbyist. My vote doesn't count for ****. And neither do any of yours.

SonOfLe-loLang
01-21-2012, 12:14 AM
I think you underestimate or out of touch with how hated Obama is up there in mega liberal Philly (don't deny it, I remember and was JUST living there a couple years ago). I literally don't know ANYONE who likes him. Makes Bush look like Reagan. And Romney isn't a disaster like Kerry.

Say "incumbent" all day. The reality is that this year all the GOP needs to do is show up.

Put it this way. Conservatives hate Romney SO much that they have actually considered the current poopoo platter otherwise known as the republican candidates. Hell, even Newt Gingrich is making a resurgence in the polls. And polls don't really support your point.

RCP Average 1/5 - 1/16 -- 46.9 45.0 Obama +1.9
PPP (D) 1/13 - 1/16 700 RV 49 44 Obama +5
CBS News/NY Times 1/12 - 1/16 1021 RV 45 45 Tie
Pew Research 1/11 - 1/16 1207 RV 50 45 Obama +5
ABC News/Wash Post 1/12 - 1/15 RV 46 48 Romney +2
FOX News 1/12 - 1/14 906 RV 46 45 Obama +1
CNN/Opinion Research 1/11 - 1/12 928 RV 47 48 Romney +1
Democracy Corps (D) 1/8 - 1/11 1000 LV 47 46 Obama +1
Rasmussen Reports 1/9 - 1/10 1000 LV 44 41 Obama +3
Reuters/Ipsos 1/5 - 1/9 896 RV 48 43 Obama +5

Not to mention, the economy is on abit of an upswing, so we don't know what its going to look like in November. The country might not be happy with Obama, but it seems they think republicans are worse. ALso, when they poll Obama against the other possible candidates, his lead widens. I wouldn't be shocked if Romney could beat him, but I think he's a complete **** candidate who is 100 percent out of touch.

*** for the record, I don't even give much of a **** anymore because I think the system is 100 percent, completely broken.

lonestar
01-21-2012, 12:36 AM
Perhaps true, but unfortunately for them, they dont have anyone moderately functional. Also, the Obama created within the right wing echo chamber is vastly different from the actual one. I was watching Real Time earlier and they played a Fox News clip about how Ron Paul mentioned that infiltrating Osama's hideway wasn't a great idea....then the Fox News guy said it sounded like something Dennis Kucinich would say...or Barack Obama. Last I checked...Obama was the guy who OK'd that raid. Just a small example of **** like that.

Can you imagine what would have happened had he NOT ok'd the raid?

It did not take an ounce of balls to make that decision..

SonOfLe-loLang
01-21-2012, 12:38 AM
Can you imagine what would have happened had he NOT ok'd the raid?

It did not take an ounce of balls to make that decision..

Actually, yeah it did. Because imagine if they ****ed it up? I'm not an Obama lover, but give him credit for SOMETHING.

Not to mention, you missed my point.

DarkHorse30
01-21-2012, 12:58 AM
If you think Romney is going to "wipe the floor" with Obama then you should consider joining DarkHorse on the sidelines for this topic. Can Romney win? Possible. But I have a hard time seeing a guy as flimsy as Romney, who isn't even liked very much by his own party (particularly the right wing conservative base), beating an incumbent. Obama isn't nearly as week of a candidate as some want to think, and an improving economy will only make him stronger.

Put your glasses on.

Obama and Biden (aka Dumb and Dumber) keep driving the country in the ditch. They wouldn't know how to create a REAL job even if it was handed to them by the canooks (hello pipeline, goodbye Barack). Sheesh, Tony, are you such a demming that you are going to jump off the cliff following a guy that knows NOTHING about running a country? Wow.

Chris
01-21-2012, 07:46 AM
Can you imagine what would have happened had he NOT ok'd the raid?

It did not take an ounce of balls to make that decision..

Kind of like how Bush failed to do the raid in those Afghan mountains years ago?

Obama has sent in more drones, killed or captured more terrorists and shown more balls in the anti-terror arena than Bush ever did, regardless of what you think about his domestic performance.

Bronx33
01-21-2012, 07:52 AM
Lets not pretend why the raid was placed by obama its obvious lets also remember that it appeared bin laden has gotten complacent and made a much easier target than the one bush was chasing and yes i was royally pissed when they basically let him go.

TonyR
01-21-2012, 08:54 AM
The reality is that this year all the GOP needs to do is show up.

I would have agreed with this about a year ago. But there is very little enthusiasm for any of the GOP candidates, and none of them are going to reel in the independents. Add in an improving economy (however slight and slow) and a likely candidate (Romney) who's wealth and big business background won't be popular in the current environment and I think we have the ingredients for an Obama win.

BABronco
01-21-2012, 09:05 AM
I would have agreed with this about a year ago. But there is very little enthusiasm for any of the GOP candidates, and none of them are going to reel in the independents.

Incorrect. Paul is currently pulling a decent amount of independents. It is his own party that he is having trouble with...

SonOfLe-loLang
01-21-2012, 09:10 AM
Incorrect. Paul is currently pulling a decent amount of independents. It is his own party that he is having trouble with...

Paul ain't winning ****. But I bet he'd pull in some votes as a third party guy. Not enough, but enough to be annoying to both candidates.

Rohirrim
01-21-2012, 09:16 AM
Early numbers look like Newt's going to win South Carolina. So far, he leads 40% to 26%. Good.

Here's what I've always found puzzling. The Right Wingers scream about morals and values for the entire political year. Palin, Bachmann and Christine O'Donnell spend months haranguing the people of America about their "values" and the immorality of the Left. All the Right Wing preachers from all the Right Wing Christian organizations scream from the pulpit about how they have to seize America back from the clutches of the godless Left. "We will all be doomed if Obama, that black Satan in the White House, is allowed another term." Then, when it comes time to select a candidate, they pick the most immoral and pathologically valueless person they can find, as long as he steps up to a mic and parrots their fringe political views.

Why? Because he's asked for redemption, that's why. :rofl:

Requiem
01-21-2012, 09:29 AM
I think you underestimate or out of touch with how hated Obama is up there in mega liberal Philly (don't deny it, I remember and was JUST living there a couple years ago). I literally don't know ANYONE who likes him. Makes Bush look like Reagan. And Romney isn't a disaster like Kerry.

Say "incumbent" all day. The reality is that this year all the GOP needs to do is show up.

If Romney is the nominee, it'll be a close race for sure. Anyone else and Obama wins in a landslide. Romney is the only (R) in the race who has the ability to challenge Obama in the electorate. Romney will give Obama a tough time in some Midwestern states, some Northeastern states and ultimately gives Independents someone to consider other than Obama.

JMHO.

Bronx33
01-21-2012, 09:50 AM
If Romney is the nominee, it'll be a close race for sure. Anyone else and Obama wins in a landslide. Romney is the only (R) in the race who has the ability to challenge Obama in the electorate. Romney will give Obama a tough time in some Midwestern states, some Northeastern states and ultimately gives Independents someone to consider other than Obama.

JMHO.


They are not making the same mistake twice being independent allows one to make other choices and not cast a (just because hes a democrat vote) everybody should be an independent that would force politicians to operate differently.

Right now they can almost expect a vote from party followers without earning it.

BABronco
01-21-2012, 10:07 AM
Paul ain't winning ****. But I bet he'd pull in some votes as a third party guy. Not enough, but enough to be annoying to both candidates.

Define ****. As a third party looks like he is polling 15-19%. I think if he ran third party, if he was allowed in the debates and was allowed a fair amount of time he would probably get around 25% if not more. If it was Obama vs Mitt vs Paul all he would have to do is expose that they are both supported by the same corporations and that their policies are not too different. I doubt he will run third party but that would make for an interesting debate.

Tombstone RJ
01-21-2012, 10:09 AM
Early numbers look like Newt's going to win South Carolina. So far, he leads 40% to 26%. Good.

Here's what I've always found puzzling. The Right Wingers scream about morals and values for the entire political year. Palin, Bachmann and Christine O'Donnell spend months haranguing the people of America about their "values" and the immorality of the Left. All the Right Wing preachers from all the Right Wing Christian organizations scream from the pulpit about how they have to seize America back from the clutches of the godless Left. "We will all be doomed if Obama, that black Satan in the White House, is allowed another term." Then, when it comes time to select a candidate, they pick the most immoral and pathologically valueless person they can find, as long as he steps up to a mic and parrots their fringe political views.

Why? Because he's asked for redemption, that's why. :rofl:

I know this is what you want to believe but I think it's way more pragmatic. the GOP will put the candidate up whom they feel can win the election, period. So if the GOP thinks Newt can beat BO then that is who they put on the GOP, it has little to do with Newt's history, unfortunately.

I've said this before and I'll say it again: this is why I won't join either party because it's never about the best candidate, it's only about winning and this is why both parties suck.

Drek
01-21-2012, 10:21 AM
I think you underestimate or out of touch with how hated Obama is up there in mega liberal Philly (don't deny it, I remember and was JUST living there a couple years ago). I literally don't know ANYONE who likes him. Makes Bush look like Reagan. And Romney isn't a disaster like Kerry.

Say "incumbent" all day. The reality is that this year all the GOP needs to do is show up.

I would take your anecdotal tale of "reality" and interpret it to mean you live in a generally right leaning echo chamber. Since approval v. disapproval is running neck and neck right now.

Obama's approval rating is trending up heading into his final year while GWB's was trending strongly down up until he'd already won re-election. Obama's base approval rating is lower than GWBs was at this point but if you normalize for the political climate each is in Obama's is far stronger. When GWB was entering the final year of his third term public sentiment was not extremely hostile towards all politicians. Obama might be in the mid-40's on approval but the congress and senate are in the low teens on a good day. That is a massive divide and is underscored by polling that shows the majority of Americans still actually LIKE Obama and want him to succeed.

Even during the final quarter of 2011 which will likely be Obama's approval low point he was ahead in the vast majority of polls against Romney and well ahead in every poll against the rest of the republican field. That is before Obama spends a cent of the ~$1 Billion in campaign funds he will have. All of that polling data relies heavily on Obama seeing less turnout from the youth vote and minorities which are the two demographics he has shown the least decline with over his presidency.

Then take someone like Romney. He's a bad campaigner, having been steamrolled by Ted Kennedy in a boon year for the GOP when Kennedy had serious character questions of his own in '94. He won a fairly narrow margin for governor and quickly became one of the most disliked governors in the country. He didn't run for re-election and instead got steamrolled by McCain in the primaries.

Add a similar "northeast elite" label as Kerry without the military service or the history of successful political campaigns and strong home state support. Add an inability to shut up about his wealth. A healthcare plan he pushed forward that was shockingly similar to Obamacare. Political views that change on a dime making the accusations of Kerry as a "flip flopper" look tame in comparison. I could go on.

This is not a guy who can beat an incumbent with more money, a far superior campaign staff, a better network in states across this country, and far better oratory skills.

He's already screwed in the mid-west thanks in part to his own national op-ed where he claimed we should have let Detroit burn, cutting off his hopes of winning the state he was born in and where his father was governor. Also largely thanks to the anti-union war that the GOP has been waging in Wisconsin and Ohio where republican governors have destroyed the party's credibility in those states. Thanks to that Obama actually has a clear "win by 10PM" path open to him if he hangs on to just one of Virginia or NC and wins Ohio, Michigan, and Wisconsin.

SonOfLe-loLang
01-21-2012, 10:23 AM
Define ****. As a third party looks like he is polling 15-19%. I think if he ran third party, if he was allowed in the debates and was allowed a fair amount of time he would probably get around 25% if not more. If it was Obama vs Mitt vs Paul all he would have to do is expose that they are both supported by the same corporations and that their policies are not too different. I doubt he will run third party but that would make for an interesting debate.

**** in this case would be the POTUS. As said he could Perot the election, but America would never vote Ron Paul just as they wouldn't Bernie sanders

DarkHorse30
01-21-2012, 10:23 AM
Early numbers look like Newt's going to win South Carolina. So far, he leads 40% to 26%. Good.

Here's what I've always found puzzling. The Right Wingers scream about morals and values for the entire political year. Palin, Bachmann and Christine O'Donnell spend months haranguing the people of America about their "values" and the immorality of the Left. All the Right Wing preachers from all the Right Wing Christian organizations scream from the pulpit about how they have to seize America back from the clutches of the godless Left. "We will all be doomed if Obama, that black Satan in the White House, is allowed another term." Then, when it comes time to select a candidate, they pick the most immoral and pathologically valueless person they can find, as long as he steps up to a mic and parrots their fringe political views.

Why? Because he's asked for redemption, that's why. :rofl:

Fringe? Spend less than you make is "fringe"?

Why does EVERY atheist turn EVERYTHING into a religious issue? Seems counterproductive.....

BABronco
01-21-2012, 10:36 AM
**** in this case would be the POTUS. As said he could Perot the election, but America would never vote Ron Paul just as they wouldn't Bernie sanders

I doubt he wins his parties nomination. However, if he does. I think he would be the only republican who would stand a chance against Obama.

SonOfLe-loLang
01-21-2012, 10:56 AM
I doubt he wins his parties nomination. However, if he does. I think he would be the only republican who would stand a chance against Obama.

Not a chance. People like things like medicare/ss/medicaid. I respect Ron Paul for his conviction, even though i dont agree with anything he says, but he'll never win conservatives, he certainly wont win democrats or older independents. Libertarianism is too fringe, just as socialism is.

houghtam
01-21-2012, 10:56 AM
Fringe? Spend less than you make is "fringe"?

Why does EVERY atheist turn EVERYTHING into a religious issue? Seems counterproductive.....

WTF do his religious views or non-views have to do with anything? He makes a valid point. When it comes to morality and religion, the right is a bunch of hypocrites.

BABronco
01-21-2012, 11:06 AM
Not a chance. People like things like medicare/ss/medicaid. I respect Ron Paul for his conviction, even though i dont agree with anything he says, but he'll never win conservatives, he certainly wont win democrats or older independents. Libertarianism is too fringe, just as socialism is.

I agree AND HE WILL NOT TOUCH THEM. He will allow the youth the opt out of ss slowly allowing it to die while not touching the older generations ss checks.

BABronco
01-21-2012, 11:12 AM
Okay. This video makes perfect sense. I now hate RP!!!

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/CeP2SU6ah6Q" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Rohirrim
01-21-2012, 11:27 AM
Fringe? Spend less than you make is "fringe"?

Why does EVERY atheist turn EVERYTHING into a religious issue? Seems counterproductive.....

Why does every simpleton think everything is simple?

24champ
01-21-2012, 11:53 AM
Early numbers look like Newt's going to win South Carolina. So far, he leads 40% to 26%. Good.

Here's what I've always found puzzling. The Right Wingers scream about morals and values for the entire political year. Palin, Bachmann and Christine O'Donnell spend months haranguing the people of America about their "values" and the immorality of the Left. All the Right Wing preachers from all the Right Wing Christian organizations scream from the pulpit about how they have to seize America back from the clutches of the godless Left. "We will all be doomed if Obama, that black Satan in the White House, is allowed another term." Then, when it comes time to select a candidate, they pick the most immoral and pathologically valueless person they can find, as long as he steps up to a mic and parrots their fringe political views.

Why? Because he's asked for redemption, that's why. :rofl:

Internals show that women are breaking hard for Romney today (surprise) and people haven't been showing up to Newt rallies in droves. He had to cancel an event or two.

Also Mitt Romney sent out this Memo to the media...

HAPPY 15th ANNIVERSARY, MR. SPEAKER

Fifteen Years Ago Today, Newt Gingrich Became The First House Speaker In American History To Be Reprimanded By His Colleagues

Read more: http://thepage.time.com/2012/01/21/romney-media-memo-happy-15th-anniversary-mr-speaker/#ixzz1k7lfyREz

Scarface
01-21-2012, 12:16 PM
Okay. This video makes perfect sense. I now hate RP!!!

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/CeP2SU6ah6Q" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

I am now not voting for Ron Paul because of this video. Anything on a graph is true. We need more war and debt in order to get out of war and out of debt. Makes perfect sense. In fact I wish Sean Hannity would just run already so I could vote for him. I love drone strikes on poor people and I also love that the value of our dollar is down the drain due to unlimited power by the fed to print as much money as they need to bailout mega banks and fund war across the globe. I think it's great that if someone made 35k/yr in 1990 they'd have to make 60k/yr today to maintain the same standard of living. That's not hurting anyone.

houghtam
01-21-2012, 12:38 PM
Okay. This video makes perfect sense. I now hate RP!!!

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/CeP2SU6ah6Q" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

The best.

"I was talking to this Ron Paul supporter and he was talking about...sound economic policy, and I stopped and said 'woah woah woah woah...where did you hear any of that on Fox News?"

Not sure if srs.

TheReverend
01-21-2012, 01:00 PM
I would take your anecdotal tale of "reality" and interpret it to mean you live in a generally right leaning echo chamber.

Of course I do. Hippies smell and poor people are stupid and dangerous.

Kaylore
01-21-2012, 01:31 PM
I'm a Republican and I've walked precincts for several campaigns, been a delegate at pretty much every level and regularly caucus here in Colorado. I can say for a fact that Republicans will need to do more than "just show up" to win this.

Elections are often about being organized, registering voters and then getting your voters out. The Dems absolutely raped the Republicans in the last presidential cycle in these areas specifically. Even here in Colorado, where everywhere else was falling to Republicans, The Dems pretty much won at every level even when polling showed the Republicans ahead by margins greater than error.

Romney is so moderate he might not energize the base enough to get the vote out. Obama can start hammering the class warfare line over and over and paint Romney as rich, white, out of touch, magic underwear wearing weirdo and lean on the political machine he set up to close out enough races to hold this off.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not predicting an Obama victory, but Romney, or whoever gets the nomination, has their work cut out for them for sure.

houghtam
01-21-2012, 02:10 PM
I'm a Republican and I've walked precincts for several campaigns, been a delegate at pretty much every level and regularly caucus here in Colorado. I can say for a fact that Republicans will need to do more than "just show up" to win this.

Elections are often about being organized, registering voters and then getting your voters out. The Dems absolutely raped the Republicans in the last presidential cycle in these areas specifically. Even here in Colorado, where everywhere else was falling to Republicans, The Dems pretty much won at every level even when polling showed the Republicans ahead by margins greater than error.

Romney is so moderate he might not energize the base enough to get the vote out. Obama can start hammering the class warfare line over and over and paint Romney as rich, white, out of touch, magic underwear wearing weirdo and lean on the political machine he set up to close out enough races to hold this off.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not predicting an Obama victory, but Romney, or whoever gets the nomination, has their work cut out for them for sure.

Exactly, and when it comes for debate time, he'll make Romney look worse than Palin did. Have you seen him try to answer questions about his personal finances? Dude stutters more than Simple Jack.

Willynowei
01-21-2012, 03:50 PM
Perhaps true, but unfortunately for them, they dont have anyone moderately functional. Also, the Obama created within the right wing echo chamber is vastly different from the actual one. I was watching Real Time earlier and they played a Fox News clip about how Ron Paul mentioned that infiltrating Osama's hideway wasn't a great idea....then the Fox News guy said it sounded like something Dennis Kucinich would say...or Barack Obama. Last I checked...Obama was the guy who OK'd that raid. Just a small example of **** like that.

I like Mitt quite a lot.

Willynowei
01-21-2012, 03:56 PM
Early numbers look like Newt's going to win South Carolina. So far, he leads 40% to 26%. Good.

Here's what I've always found puzzling. The Right Wingers scream about morals and values for the entire political year. Palin, Bachmann and Christine O'Donnell spend months haranguing the people of America about their "values" and the immorality of the Left. All the Right Wing preachers from all the Right Wing Christian organizations scream from the pulpit about how they have to seize America back from the clutches of the godless Left. "We will all be doomed if Obama, that black Satan in the White House, is allowed another term." Then, when it comes time to select a candidate, they pick the most immoral and pathologically valueless person they can find, as long as he steps up to a mic and parrots their fringe political views.

Why? Because he's asked for redemption, that's why. :rofl:

Does it really matter? At the end of the day the question is, whose going to improve the economic climate and uplift quality of life.

All that abortion/religion/gay rights stuff is just a means to an end for both parties.

extralife
01-21-2012, 04:00 PM
I like Mitt quite a lot.

I knew there was one out there somewhere

Paladin
01-21-2012, 04:15 PM
Flip, Mittins, flip.

Take it like a man. Paybacks' a b**ch.

DarkHorse30
01-21-2012, 05:26 PM
I'm a Republican and I've walked precincts for several campaigns, been a delegate at pretty much every level and regularly caucus here in Colorado. I can say for a fact that Republicans will need to do more than "just show up" to win this.

Elections are often about being organized, registering voters and then getting your voters out. The Dems absolutely raped the Republicans in the last presidential cycle in these areas specifically. Even here in Colorado, where everywhere else was falling to Republicans, The Dems pretty much won at every level even when polling showed the Republicans ahead by margins greater than error.

Romney is so moderate he might not energize the base enough to get the vote out. Obama can start hammering the class warfare line over and over and paint Romney as rich, white, out of touch, magic underwear wearing weirdo and lean on the political machine he set up to close out enough races to hold this off.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not predicting an Obama victory, but Romney, or whoever gets the nomination, has their work cut out for them for sure.

The last election proves that this particular flag doesn't fly. It's about JOBS, and/or the economy stupid. Obama has no plan except "blame Bush.....again".

You are the 99% what? Unemployed? Class warfare is for idiots and tyrants. They love each other on this issue.

lonestar
01-21-2012, 05:50 PM
Kind of like how Bush failed to do the raid in those Afghan mountains years ago?

Obama has sent in more drones, killed or captured more terrorists and shown more balls in the anti-terror arena than Bush ever did, regardless of what you think about his domestic performance.

just perhaps the drones were more available after Bush left the white house..

I do not think those units grow on trees nor do the operators..

I suspect that Bush would have done the same thing had it been available to him in that theater.

So lets not make NOBAMA out to be a hero for doing what ANY human would do..

I also suspect that his stupid withdrawal of troops will cause that region to go into the toilet sooner than IF he had the balls to keep a force in the area..

lonestar
01-21-2012, 05:52 PM
Paul ain't winning ****. But I bet he'd pull in some votes as a third party guy. Not enough, but enough to be annoying to both candidates.

lets hope that he does not pull another perot and cause us to have four more years with this shaste head..

lonestar
01-21-2012, 06:13 PM
Exactly, and when it comes for debate time, he'll make Romney look worse than Palin did. Have you seen him try to answer questions about his personal finances? Dude stutters more than Simple Jack.

At least he does not need a telepromtor for his every spoken word..

houghtam
01-21-2012, 06:41 PM
At least he does not need a telepromtor for his every spoken word..

Wow, pulling out the teleprompter schtick, huh? Obama didn't have a teleprompter during the debates and he still kicked McCain's ass.

Fact is he's a great public speaker, regardless of what you think of his politics. So was Clinton, so was Reagan. I'm pretty sure the teleprompter has been around in some form or another since the 50's, and I'm pretty sure EVERY politician has used one for televised speeches.

Mile High Mojoe
01-21-2012, 07:24 PM
I take the SC primary vote with a grain of salt. I’ve been a supporter of Santorum throughout because he is the most principled Conservative left in the race. That said I’m glad that Newt beat Romney because of these 3 he’s my least favorite candidate left in the race.

Newt will give Obama a much better fight in the general than Romney because he’s a weak kneed RINO, he’s not a good debater, he’s far less conservative and if anything he’s more of a moderate Democrat than a principally Conservative Republican.

The best news tonight to come out of the SC primary was that Paul was in dead last which is exactly where he belongs. He was and still is the worst possible choice in the beginning or the end of this race.

The poll numbers on Paul that you see in the media are inflated and fraudulent. They’re completely fabricated by his fanatical group of internet supporters who do nothing but set in front of a computer day after day voting for him in these meaningless polls again and again to make him look as if has more support than he actually has.

I love how CNN in the last 3 months has had him on repeatedly to prop him up hoping and praying that somehow he gets traction because they know and anyone who has political sense knows that Paul is unelectable and as such it helps promote a fraud to give Obama an even better chance for reelection. If you’ve watch this news coverage and believed what they’ve said about Paul you need to wake up you’ve been duped because he’s dead in the water and will never win the nomination. All he is doing now is helping to divide the party further and give Obama that much more of an advantage in the general.

One day a better candidate from the Libertarian party may finally emerge that doesn’t have as many warts as Paul has. I hope this will end Paul’s race and that this will be his last run for President because he only represents a small fringe of the Republican Party, and in my opinion has been a joke his whole political career. I know I have many friends who support Paul but this is my honest view on him but it's no reflection on you.

Good night Newt, keep up the push and Santorum I hope you pull more votes in Florida because if you don’t I think it’s time you step aside and let Newt finish off Romney.

Play2win
01-21-2012, 08:06 PM
****, GWB had an Earpiece...

Paladin
01-21-2012, 08:33 PM
****, GWB had an Earpiece...

And he still couldn't answer the questions.....

For those who think that the Affordable Insurance Reform Act can be repealed, understand it isn't the President who can repeal it. If the Dems retake the house or keep the Senate, the entire act will stand. Doesn't matter who the Pres is.

Ginger is playing on a fool's gambit. Indys know that something like forty percent of people on Food Stamps work. Ginger wants to play the anger and race cards. The 99%ers are going to have fun with both Ginger and Mittins. And Ginger is not a favorite of Indys. Anyway you cut it. any one the "family values conservatives" throw out there will not beat Obama.

Bush had a chance to take out Bin laden on Tora Bora. A Delta Ops had that creep in his sights and radioed for instrutions on taking him out. The Ops was told no. By the Bushies. My guess is that Bushie and his cconies knew the value of scare tactics in future elections and let that scumbg live. Bushie became unconcerned as to where bin Laden was. But Bushie used him for political purposes. Created Homeland Security. Lots of jobs there, right? Lots of money there, right. During Bushies' watch, teh country lost 750,000 jobs a month. They went overseas. The US Chamber ustifies it a "good business devcisions." Yeah, that's it: good business decisions.

Stupid f**ks slam Obama and forget where the h3ll the problems came from and have no ideas for cleaning up the mess left by Bush. Just P#ss abd moan aboaut Obama. That really helps, you know?.

Ron Paul is like the nutty old uncle people see on Thanksgiving and he sits in the corner and mutters about the Fed. Simple solutions to the problem: pretend we don't have people who have needs for help or who have medical and other issues. Follow the Constitution. Yep. Which one? The doriginal one or the one that has all those troublesome amendment that count the Blacks differently? Santorum is a weak kneed wimp like the skinny kid in the gym class. All mouth, no game.

The real issue is taking of the House and keeping the Senate. But I guess you all "know" everything about all of it, right?

TonyR
01-21-2012, 09:07 PM
...This is not a guy who can beat an incumbent with more money, a far superior campaign staff, a better network in states across this country, and far better oratory skills......

Yup. Solid post. Probably the only way Obama loses is if the economy tanks.

schaaf
01-21-2012, 09:31 PM
If the GOP gets anyone besides Romney as its nomination, we're screwed... Romney is the only one that could knock off Obama, the others are too far to the right side.

Mile High Mojoe
01-21-2012, 09:45 PM
If the GOP gets anyone besides Romney as its nomination, we're screwed... Romney is the only one that could knock off Obama, the others are too far to the right side.

Wrong dead wrong, they said the same about Reagan in 1980 and none of the candidates except Santorum are as conservative as he was. The media has no idea how wrong they are. They’re blowing sunshine up Romney's backside to make him the GOP nominee when most Reps. want nothing to do with him because he gives the party the worse chance to win back the White House.

Obama fears Newt and Santorum far more than Romney because both will completely destroy him on his record in a debate. You're either A. Watching too much of Daily Show which isn't a real news show and is totally bias. Or B. You're watching MSLSD or CNN who’re are totally bias and have not made one single prediction right in the first 3 primaries and want Romney as a nominee because he's the biggest limp noodle in the race.

lonestar
01-21-2012, 09:55 PM
Wrong dead wrong, they said the same about Reagan in 1980 and none of the candidates except Santorum are as conservative as he was. The media has no idea how wrong they are. They’re blowing sunshine up Romney's backside to make him the GOP nominee when most Reps. want nothing to do with him because he gives the party the worse chance to win back the White House.

Obama fears Newt and Santorum far more than Romney because both will completely destroy him on his record in a debate. You're either A. Watching too much of Daily Show which isn't a real news show and is totally bias. Or B. You're watching MSLSD or CNN who’re are totally bias and have not made one single prediction right in the first 3 primaries and want Romney as a nominee because he's the biggest limp noodle in the race.


Pretty close to be dead on with this post..

I have until a few weeks ago forgone any and ALL election crap..

I have watched a couple of debates and Newt has killed Romney in all of them so far Santorum has been good and would be odds on favorite IF Newt was not going for the jugular..

No doubt in my mind from what I have seen the past few weeks that both can kill the teleprompter king one on one..

Unless the economy really spikes up nobama is toast..

his failure in every area will get him sent back to Chicago to lead the corruption there..

Taco John
01-21-2012, 10:21 PM
http://i.imgur.com/oAs9d.jpg

strafen
01-21-2012, 10:25 PM
http://i.imgur.com/oAs9d.jpg:rofl: :~ohyah!: :thumbs: :thumbsup:

Mile High Mojoe
01-21-2012, 10:30 PM
http://i.imgur.com/oAs9d.jpg

:strong:

Drek
01-22-2012, 03:21 AM
Wrong dead wrong, they said the same about Reagan in 1980 and none of the candidates except Santorum are as conservative as he was. The media has no idea how wrong they are. They’re blowing sunshine up Romney's backside to make him the GOP nominee when most Reps. want nothing to do with him because he gives the party the worse chance to win back the White House.

Obama fears Newt and Santorum far more than Romney because both will completely destroy him on his record in a debate. You're either A. Watching too much of Daily Show which isn't a real news show and is totally bias. Or B. You're watching MSLSD or CNN who’re are totally bias and have not made one single prediction right in the first 3 primaries and want Romney as a nominee because he's the biggest limp noodle in the race.

What exactly are Gingrich or Santorum going to use to "destroy him on his record in a debate"?

The fact that he's a better debater and speaker than both of them who will have a more clear, more concise message that he has already been honing for longer than they've been running their primary campaigns?

Or the fact that he gets to control the national dialogue to some degree as the sitting POTUS?

What exact things has he done that will win major points for Gingrich or Santorum with the middle? Or are you talking about all the right wing red meat they can throw out there that will see them do no better than McCain did last election?

Obama had this race effectively sown up when two GOP governors in the swing states of Wisconsin and Ohio picked a fight you just can't win by attacking the rights of firefighters, police officers, teachers, etc.. I know the fringe right things that is just fantastic but one of them had his proposal absolutely crushed and his approval rating drop to near congressional levels. The other, who pushed his through without the need for a public vote, is now being recalled along with his Lt. Gov and three senators.

The GOP has already dicked themselves over in both of those swing states. Not only have they engendered a ton of ill will, they've also stirred up a VERY active political groundwork that will be in place and fighting for over a year come the general.

Cap it off with a massive amount of GOP hostility and bile being spewed at the auto bailouts when those same bailouts are what kept Michigan as a whole from becoming a third world country. Its likely not even going to be a swing state.

So with Ohio, Wisconsin, and Michigan already gift wrapped for Obama and the reality that he isn't losing Pennsylvania or New Hampshire, even with a Romney/Santorum ticket he's at 264 of the 270 needed electoral votes. If he lands just one of the remaining swing states (VA, NC, FL, IA, MO, CO, NM, NV) he's won. He carried all of those swing states but one (MO) last time around.

The problem here for the GOP isn't about finding a good candidate, its finding a strategy that somehow lets you basically landslide the swing states. The only way that happens is another recession. If we maintain the slow and steady growth we've had for a couple of years now Obama is going to walk to a win.

That One Guy
01-22-2012, 06:26 AM
Bush had a chance to take out Bin laden on Tora Bora. A Delta Ops had that creep in his sights and radioed for instrutions on taking him out. The Ops was told no. By the Bushies. My guess is that Bushie and his cconies knew the value of scare tactics in future elections and let that scumbg live. Bushie became unconcerned as to where bin Laden was. But Bushie used him for political purposes. Created Homeland Security. Lots of jobs there, right? Lots of money there, right. During Bushies' watch, teh country lost 750,000 jobs a month. They went overseas. The US Chamber ustifies it a "good business devcisions." Yeah, that's it: good business decisions.



You're conveniently forgetting that they pulled the trigger shortly thereafter and everyone sincerely thought they'd killed him.

Rohirrim
01-22-2012, 06:42 AM
Humorous moment of the evening: When Newt took credit for balancing the budget four times under Clinton. Ha!

All I remember of Newt as Speaker was when he and his cronies (like Tom Delay who was also a criminal), were rabid dogs wasting millions of taxpayer money trying to bring down the president at all costs.

Not much different from today's Republicans, when you think about it.

Drek
01-22-2012, 08:42 AM
You're conveniently forgetting that they pulled the trigger shortly thereafter and everyone sincerely thought they'd killed him.

Doesn't change the fact that Bush had a very similar opportunity and unlike Obama he stalled and was unable to close the deal? He had to make the call in a remote mountain region inside the borders of Afghanistan. Obama meanwhile didn't hesitate to pull the trigger when it involved dropping a SEAL team into the middle of a Pakistan city.

So does the argument that Bush, who stalled and delayed with a much easier decision, would have done the same thing as Obama with regards to Bin Laden is absolute bull****.

Obama is the first president in a very long time who doesn't have feeding the military industry complex as job task #1A. He's getting us out of two costly wars that do jack **** to better the lives of the American people. Two wars the previous regime started.

He had the opportunity to have his own little Kosovo like Clinton, a civil war we step into with UN support and dictate terms in. He instead refused to put U.S. lives in harms way and used our gross military superiority to guide the outcome.

He has to this point resisted the taunts of Ahmadinejad which are no different than the taunts of Saddam Hussein that led to the first Gulf War.

He is not trying to combat an ideologically opposed foreign power in China by bankrupting the U.S. and sending us into this debtor's nosedive we have still never successfully pulled out of like Regan did with his push to end the cold war.

Instead he works to make America a better country for American citizens. Despite that he's shown more balls on foreign policy than any of the guys mentioned above. Anyone who is a fan of Ron Paul's end to foreign intervention should look to Obama and see how a moderate politician who can actually win POTUS goes about leading us down that path.

OBF1
01-22-2012, 08:56 AM
If the GOP gets anyone besides Romney as its nomination, we're screwed... Romney is the only one that could knock off Obama, the others are too far to the right side.

I am a well known Obama hater... But there is not one canidate from the GOP that stands a chance in the GE vs obama. Serious... a man named Newt or Mitt as President, I think not.

OBF1
01-22-2012, 09:10 AM
Drek... Honestly, do you buy any of the bull sh i t you are spewing??? Our current president and the clowns looking for the republican nomination are all a bunch of egotistical, ass clowns who do not give a sh i t about anyone....except those that contribute large amounts of $$$ to their personal "Warchests"

Who will be the best president out of all the current choices we have now is like saying you are the tallest midget in the room or the smartest brain dead patient on a respirator.

gyldenlove
01-22-2012, 09:10 AM
I so hope that Gingrich wins - you are going to see this ad run in every important state: A picture of Obama with the text "the man who brought Bin Laden to justice", followed by a picture of Gingrich with the text "the man who cheated on his cancer stricken wife" followed by a black screen with the text "the choice is clear".

Rohirrim
01-22-2012, 09:25 AM
I so hope that Gingrich wins - you are going to see this ad run in every important state: A picture of Obama with the text "the man who brought Bin Laden to justice", followed by a picture of Gingrich with the text "the man who cheated on his cancer stricken wife" followed by a black screen with the text "the choice is clear".

I don't think this means Gingrich wins the nomination. For the last year, the Republicans have tried every one of these candidates as their front runner. First, it was Christine O'Donnell, then Gingich, then Perry, then Cain, then Santorum, then Romney and now back to Newt. Maybe they're just starting over again? ;D

That One Guy
01-22-2012, 09:29 AM
Doesn't change the fact that Bush had a very similar opportunity and unlike Obama he stalled and was unable to close the deal? He had to make the call in a remote mountain region inside the borders of Afghanistan. Obama meanwhile didn't hesitate to pull the trigger when it involved dropping a SEAL team into the middle of a Pakistan city.

So does the argument that Bush, who stalled and delayed with a much easier decision, would have done the same thing as Obama with regards to Bin Laden is absolute bull****.

Obama is the first president in a very long time who doesn't have feeding the military industry complex as job task #1A. He's getting us out of two costly wars that do jack **** to better the lives of the American people. Two wars the previous regime started.

He had the opportunity to have his own little Kosovo like Clinton, a civil war we step into with UN support and dictate terms in. He instead refused to put U.S. lives in harms way and used our gross military superiority to guide the outcome.

He has to this point resisted the taunts of Ahmadinejad which are no different than the taunts of Saddam Hussein that led to the first Gulf War.

He is not trying to combat an ideologically opposed foreign power in China by bankrupting the U.S. and sending us into this debtor's nosedive we have still never successfully pulled out of like Regan did with his push to end the cold war.

Instead he works to make America a better country for American citizens. Despite that he's shown more balls on foreign policy than any of the guys mentioned above. Anyone who is a fan of Ron Paul's end to foreign intervention should look to Obama and see how a moderate politician who can actually win POTUS goes about leading us down that path.

If Bush were putting off trying to kill Bin Laden for political benefits, why would he try to kill him shortly thereafter? Maybe there was a legitimate reason they didn't pull the trigger that first night? I seem to recall there being concerns but I don't remember what.

And Obama is far from doing everything he can to wrap up the wars. Remember, just a couple months ago they were in negotiations to extend the US presence in Iraq.

I have to say it's not a stretch to question whether you're looking at this objectively.

Paladin
01-22-2012, 09:48 AM
You're conveniently forgetting that they pulled the trigger shortly thereafter and everyone sincerely thought they'd killed him.

Yeah, Like he got Deer Fright? BS. Bushie blew it and he had to dig up a PR scrap of BS. You fell for it. Bush is/was a POS. It is necessary to understand the source of the problems before you can even begin to formulate a recovery plan. Obama has engineered a recovery - slow though it may be - in the face of a shyt-for-brains GOP House and the massive resistance to him from the tightie righties (listen to the dumb f### Boner. He blew the chance to do somthing good for the Country with the Grand Proposal of FOUR TRILLION DOLLARS debt reduction). How come no one on the GOP side wishes to give Obama credit for what he has done? Because he has been very impressive in his work.

The GOP has two constituancies: one is a jealous, spiteful, ignorant group of prejudiced rednecks proud to be poor but better than the black folk, and the other is a white, rich and superrich group of manipulators that play like the Monopoly Man who want to preserve priviledge and no taxes and "free enteprise." Those two constituancies are not compatable, and that's why there may well be a third party. And that would screw the GOP for a long time, maybe forty years..

If Ginger is the nominee, the Independents will shower him with silence, and few votes. Dems win. He will be remembered as the guy who "put Juan Williams in his place". He is a racist SOB and a philandering hypocrite and a big mouth with no realistic solutions to anything. Romney is now extracting a big, smoking dildo, and Santorum is trying to win the race for VP selection.

Paul keeps muttering about the Fed. Maybe people need to study why the FED was built in the first place. I do thinlk it needs some changes, but it has served the people fairly well for some time. Paul would have been agood candidate in 1940. Well, maybe not. Gee, we would all love to have simple solutions for these complex issues.

In any csae, most around here have this grandose idea that Ginger is going to :tear him a new one", or that Mittins will smooth tallk his way to th ePromised land, it he can get that dildo out. There are many dead ships in the wataer that tried to use anger as teh motivation for political glory. few ever make it to the finals.....

Paladin
01-22-2012, 09:51 AM
I don't think this means Gingrich wins the nomination. For the last year, the Republicans have tried every one of these candidates as their front runner. First, it was Christine O'Donnell, then Gingich, then Perry, then Cain, then Santorum, then Romney and now back to Newt. Maybe they're just starting over again? ;D

O'Donnell? You mean Bachman, teh anti-gay mini-historian. She loved Concord, New Hampshire, remember? At least she had all her teeth al bright and shiney. And she was not a closet witch.

houghtam
01-22-2012, 10:00 AM
The GOP has two constituancies: one is a jealous, spiteful, ignorant group of prejudiced rednecks proud to be poor but better than the black folk, and the other is a white, rich and superrich group of manipulators that play like the Monopoly Man who want to preserve priviledge and no taxes and "free enteprise."

You forgot to add "...that continually votes against their own self interests in the hopes that they too will one day be rich and be able to stomp on the little guy."

Paladin
01-22-2012, 10:09 AM
[QUOTE=That One Guy;3473286]

And Obama is far from doing everything he can to wrap up the wars. Remember, just a couple months ago they were in negotiations to extend the US presence in Iraq. QUOTE]

Jebus. Try to argue both side, eh? Remember it was BUSHIE who negotiated the withdrawl date. The military wanted to continue the training and some support. For some six months prior to the withdrawal of American troops, they had not been in combat situations nor doing patrols. Not once. The troops there were training the Afghans' police and military leaders. Basically, a non-Com school. For all intents and purposes, the US was out of Iraq and Obama refused to continue the stupid, unfunded war. The Iraqis would not indemnify American troops if they were engaged and defended themselves. The intent was not to do patrols or go "Terrorist Hunting".

Why can't it be admitted that BUSHIE screwed this country from one end to the other? That POS was the worse President this Country has had, bar none considering the number of lives he screwed up and the economic damage he had done to this Counrtry. And Obama has been cleaning up after him with honor, dignity and perseverance, all the while weathering unjustified. vicious and untruthful insults from the Goofy Old Party and related desecrants......

Paladin
01-22-2012, 10:10 AM
You forgot to add "...that continually votes against their own self interests in the hopes that they too will one day be rich and be able to stomp on the little guy."

touche

houghtam
01-22-2012, 10:46 AM
[QUOTE=That One Guy;3473286]

And Obama is far from doing everything he can to wrap up the wars. Remember, just a couple months ago they were in negotiations to extend the US presence in Iraq. QUOTE]

Jebus. Try to argue both side, eh? Remember it was BUSHIE who negotiated the withdrawl date. The military wanted to continue the training and some support. For some six months prior to the withdrawal of American troops, they had not been in combat situations nor doing patrols. Not once. The troops there were training the Afghans' police and military leaders. Basically, a non-Com school. For all intents and purposes, the US was out of Iraq and Obama refused to continue the stupid, unfunded war. The Iraqis would not indemnify American troops if they were engaged and defended themselves. The intent was not to do patrols or go "Terrorist Hunting".

Why can't it be admitted that BUSHIE screwed this country from one end to the other? That POS was the worse President this Country has had, bar none considering the number of lives he screwed up and the economic damage he had done to this Counrtry. And Obama has been cleaning up after him with honor, dignity and perseverance, all the while weathering unjustified. vicious and untruthful insults from the Goofy Old Party and related desecrants......

I wouldn't go that far. As Robert Wuhl pointed out, Franklin Pierce was pretty awful. Of course, then he connected the dots, and lo and behold! What was George Bush's mother's maiden name? Barbara Pierce!

Yep, they're related.

Mile High Mojoe
01-22-2012, 10:53 AM
So with Ohio, Wisconsin, and Michigan already gift wrapped for Obama and the reality that he isn't losing Pennsylvania or New Hampshire, even with a Romney/Santorum ticket he's at 264 of the 270 needed electoral votes. If he lands just one of the remaining swing states (VA, NC, FL, IA, MO, CO, NM, NV) he's won. He carried all of those swing states but one (MO) last time around.

The problem here for the GOP isn't about finding a good candidate, its finding a strategy that somehow lets you basically landslide the swing states. The only way that happens is another recession. If we maintain the slow and steady growth we've had for a couple of years now Obama is going to walk to a win.

I’ve added to the list I posted earlier. There’s much more I’ve left out here but I just got bored with it. Any GOP candidate will have a field day in the debates about his record. He can’t blame Bush anymore, he owns this mess and it’s going to be like shooting fish in a barrel. I don’t buy for a second that he has as any of the mid-western states in the bag. He’ll win the NE states and the West coast states but all of the southern and flyovers will overwhelming vote Republican no matter who it is. So don’t BS yourself, he’s not going to walk away with this election, not by a long shot. Here’s a small list of Obama’s magnificence accomplishments in the last 3 years.


Obamacare, the biggest tax increase and boondoggle of all-time of which 70%Americans said they didn’t want

With the help of Bush, Big Bank and Investment firm Bailouts

With the help of Bush, Bailing out GM and Chrysler

Cries endlessly about the profits of the rich and corporations not paying enough tax yet takes millions and millions in campaign contributions from them

Letting the fed print money endlessly and ruining our currency

Nationalizing big banks

Nationalizing college loans

Cash for Clunkers

Epic Failure of a massive stimulus program that didn’t create private sector jobs

The Nonsensical Wall Street reform bill

Fast and Furious arms sales

Believes in the fraud that is Global Warming which is contributing to bad economy and the high cost of fuel

The massive waste of taxpayers’ money on Solyndra and the bogus “Green Jobs” agenda

Energy policy is a disaster, gas prices stay at all time high because he’s halting drilling leases so he can to promote a bogus “green energy" future while oil imports soar

Banning off shore drilling

Banning drilling in Alaska

Halting the TransCanada oil pipeline

Denying a Coal mining lease in West Virginia

With the help of big labor stopping the Boeing plant in SC

Wants to give a general amnesty to all illegal aliens so he can add them to his vote count

Total disregard for border security in the SW

Justice department didn’t proceed and prosecute Philly Black Panther intimation at the polls

Supported trying in court CIA agents for keeping our country secure

Supported bringing the slimy terrorists to NY for a jury trail

Created the biggest deficits in American history more than all Presidents combined

Creating class warfare, taxing those who gross income is over $250K calling them rich

Foreign policy is a complete disaster, we’re weaker less respected, his policies are creating more Muslim extremists worldwide, and he’s anti-Semitic

He’s a Puppet to every single Organized Labor Union

Played 90 rounds of golf in 3 years which blows Bush out of the water

Tells Americans to be thrifty but he and the wife go on extremely lavish and numerous vaca’s acting like rock stars

Has hosted mega parties for the Hollywood elite in the WH numerous times.

Has hosted lunches, dinners whatever for the liberal media elite who support and protect him

Plays the race card every time it helps push a specific agenda

Thinks anyone who believes in Christianity and the 2nd amendment are nothing but uneducated toothless rubes

Will systematically make radical cuts in National Defense when it’s a very small portion of federal spending and cuts should be made elsewhere

Believes with all his heart that government is the solution to every single problem we have in this country

Naah... there isn't single issue that a GOP candidate can nail Obama with in a debate, none, zippo. I think the GOP should just concede right now, it's all over.

Paladin
01-22-2012, 11:11 AM
Too bad. MHM has a dimwitted POV.

The Insurance Reform Bill has alredy save mailios for Seniors and college students. The Preventive Healthcare requirements have been lauded as good policy, and requirements that Medical Redords be digitalize has been great in saving unnecessary tests, and keepsinfo current for Drs, Alos, Medication refills have been simplified and tracked for abusers. The Healthcare Reform act is and will be an unqualified success.

GM is now not only productive, it is hiring and is profitable. The American automotive Industry has paid back all teh loans, and with a tidy little profit for teh American people. You need to read up on it.

The rich do not pay their fair share. I din't think he has been cring about it, but I have heard a lot of people out there in Realityland who have. Isn't that the issue with Mittins? Isn't that the issue with the Oil companies? Even Warren Buffet says that the rich pay less because the tax codes are in fact tilted. That is the issue I think Obama is talkiing about. That man has his own bucks, guy, and he don't need to do no crying to make his point. Are you one of those Super richie rich that does not like the idea of a balanced tax poicy? How about closing some loopholes that the GOP House doesn't want to do?

Massive Stimiulus porgrams has been shown by the DAO to have created or saved some 3 and a half million jobs. Sounds like it was too smal rather than unwise. How about the SS tax Holiday that put money in the pockets of the average worker? !,000 dollars on average. Tax cut. Yeah. That's right. Why? It was inened to help consumers have money to spend., You know consumers drive this economy, don't you? (to be continued)

That One Guy
01-22-2012, 11:14 AM
Yeah, Like he got Deer Fright? BS. Bushie blew it and he had to dig up a PR scrap of BS. You fell for it. Bush is/was a POS. ...

The failed attack on Osama was long before the missed opportunity was ever made public. There was no PR backlash to be responding to, yet.

24champ
01-22-2012, 11:18 AM
I think we need to see Newt's birth certificate...


http://i.imgur.com/qOs0i.jpg

That One Guy
01-22-2012, 11:21 AM
Jebus. Try to argue both side, eh? Remember it was BUSHIE who negotiated the withdrawl date. The military wanted to continue the training and some support. For some six months prior to the withdrawal of American troops, they had not been in combat situations nor doing patrols. Not once. The troops there were training the Afghans' police and military leaders. Basically, a non-Com school. For all intents and purposes, the US was out of Iraq and Obama refused to continue the stupid, unfunded war. The Iraqis would not indemnify American troops if they were engaged and defended themselves. The intent was not to do patrols or go "Terrorist Hunting".

Why can't it be admitted that BUSHIE screwed this country from one end to the other? That POS was the worse President this Country has had, bar none considering the number of lives he screwed up and the economic damage he had done to this Counrtry. And Obama has been cleaning up after him with honor, dignity and perseverance, all the while weathering unjustified. vicious and untruthful insults from the Goofy Old Party and related desecrants......

Your grammar is terrible here but I think I discerned the intended message.

First, the withdrawal deadline that Bush agreed to was actually floated, originally, during the last presidential campaign and I know Obama was a big proponent of it. He might've even been the creator, I don't recall exactly.

Second, in response to "For some six months prior to the withdrawal of American troops, they had not been in combat situations nor doing patrols. Not once. ", are you going to tell me there were no combat related deaths in 6 months prior to the last Americans leaving Iraq? "Combat situations" were definitely happening every day. The change in mission for Americans was a thing of semantics in many instances as rather than doing patrols in areas, they sent a supply truck or two and called it a supply mission with armed escorts.

And, finally, I don't know how "For all intents and purposes, the US was out of Iraq and Obama refused to continue the stupid, unfunded war." even makes sense as a response to me saying Obama tried to extend the war. It's well known it was being negotiated at the end and came down to an inability to agree on an acceptable SOFA.

That One Guy
01-22-2012, 11:29 AM
Too bad. MHM has a dimwitted POV.

The Insurance Reform Bill has alredy save mailios for Seniors and college students. The Preventive Healthcare requirements have been lauded as good policy, and requirements that Medical Redords be digitalize has been great in saving unnecessary tests, and keepsinfo current for Drs, Alos, Medication refills have been simplified and tracked for abusers. The Healthcare Reform act is and will be an unqualified success.

GM is now not only productive, it is hiring and is profitable. The American automotive Industry has paid back all teh loans, and with a tidy little profit for teh American people. You need to read up on it.

The rich do not pay their fair share. I din't think he has been cring about it, but I have heard a lot of people out there in Realityland who have. Isn't that the issue with Mittins? Isn't that the issue with the Oil companies? Even Warren Buffet says that the rich pay less because the tax codes are in fact tilted. That is the issue I think Obama is talkiing about. That man has his own bucks, guy, and he don't need to do no crying to make his point. Are you one of those Super richie rich that does not like the idea of a balanced tax poicy? How about closing some loopholes that the GOP House doesn't want to do?

Massive Stimiulus porgrams has been shown by the DAO to have created or saved some 3 and a half million jobs. Sounds like it was too smal rather than unwise. How about the SS tax Holiday that put money in the pockets of the average worker? !,000 dollars on average. Tax cut. Yeah. That's right. Why? It was inened to help consumers have money to spend., You know consumers drive this economy, don't you? (to be continued)

GM is doing much better financially but how many jobs have left the US to help that? How does that make Americans better off?

And no rich person is paying less in taxes than an average, everyday person.

Mile High Mojoe
01-22-2012, 11:30 AM
Too bad. MHM has a dimwitted POV.

The Insurance Reform Bill has alredy save mailios for Seniors and college students. The Preventive Healthcare requirements have been lauded as good policy, and requirements that Medical Redords be digitalize has been great in saving unnecessary tests, and keepsinfo current for Drs, Alos, Medication refills have been simplified and tracked for abusers. The Healthcare Reform act is and will be an unqualified success.

GM is now not only productive, it is hiring and is profitable. The American automotive Industry has paid back all teh loans, and with a tidy little profit for teh American people. You need to read up on it.

The rich do not pay their fair share. I din't think he has been cring about it, but I have heard a lot of people out there in Realityland who have. Isn't that the issue with Mittins? Isn't that the issue with the Oil companies? Even Warren Buffet says that the rich pay less because the tax codes are in fact tilted. That is the issue I think Obama is talkiing about. That man has his own bucks, guy, and he don't need to do no crying to make his point. Are you one of those Super richie rich that does not like the idea of a balanced tax poicy? How about closing some loopholes that the GOP House doesn't want to do?

Massive Stimiulus porgrams has been shown by the DAO to have created or saved some 3 and a half million jobs. Sounds like it was too smal rather than unwise. How about the SS tax Holiday that put money in the pockets of the average worker? !,000 dollars on average. Tax cut. Yeah. That's right. Why? It was inened to help consumers have money to spend., You know consumers drive this economy, don't you? (to be continued)

You're just on a completely different planet than the rest of us. None of what you say is true you need to do some more reading. You've drank a truckload of Obama's kool-aid and your news sources must be places like the Daily Show, MSNBC, the New York Slimes etc. It's impossible to debate blind followers and drones, impossible. Do you get all you're info off the White House website is that it?

SoCalBronco
01-22-2012, 11:38 AM
This thread is a great example of why I strongly prefer posting at the Chiefsplanet politics forum.

That One Guy
01-22-2012, 11:44 AM
This thread is a great example of why I strongly prefer posting at the Chiefsplanet politics forum.

What makes CP so good?

SoCalBronco
01-22-2012, 11:47 AM
What makes CP so good?

I just find the discussion at CP's political forum more interesting. It also doesn't seem to degenerate into stupid stuff as often, either. Our WRP forum is, for the lack of a better word, a cesspool.

Paladin
01-22-2012, 11:55 AM
Fed doesn't print money. The Treasury does. Treasury prints what's needed to pay for stuff BUSHiE and his cohorts didn't.


Investment firm bailouts. I recall, McCain "suspended" his campaign to go to DC to vote for the stimulus package. Many economists of all political stripes said it was necessary, else the banking industry in the US would collaspe. They didn't. Some even paid back all of the loans to date. But the Corporate Bigwigs still gave themselves big bonuses. Wow!


Wall Street Reform was a sincere effort to bring those scalawags under control. Watered down by the GOP House, it needs to be redone with stronger regulations, otherwise the housing scams could go on again. Qould you like that?
But we know that the GOP arseholes in the House did not want Warren to put up those regs to control Credit Card and lending practices. Tell me why.

Personal vacations? Bushie took more vacation times than the Obamas. These are not lavish trips, old bean. That is a laughable statemnt and exemplifies the jealousy and envy that Mittins talked so eloquently about, but in this case it is laced with racism.

Off Shore drilling was not banned. It was postponed. It has been since re-permitted with additional rules to protect the environment so that the Gulf Shore Incident would not be repeated. Alaska has been difficult for every one, but there is a tribe of natives there who do not want the Caribou migration to be interrupted whicn drilling there would do. Further, Environmental safeguards have not been assurred. If you wish to destroy the tundra, you can write your congresscritter and gripe.

College loans were being exploited by privateers. Since you wouldn't want regs and people hired to enforce them, the Government can do it less expensively.

The rest of your unsubstantiated and idiotic diatribe is dismisssed as being the rants of a bible toting, uneducated, gun hugging, toothless rube.

Bush didn't play much golf becasue he was p$ss poor at it. Obama is athletic. If Obama played 90 rounds in three years, that's....uh....ltes'd see, carry the one.....um.... he's played 2.5 rounds a month. Boner goes out every day. And he uses a Tanning product daily.

National Defense is a bit more than a small part of the National budget, good buddy. This is as ludicoius and stupid statement you have ever made. Look it up, rube. I am now convinced you are teenager who is trying to think adult but has no idea what the h3ll he.she/it/you are taklking back. Grow up kid and come back when you have any real facts with links to give us.

DarkHorse30
01-22-2012, 11:56 AM
What exactly are Gingrich or Santorum going to use to "destroy him on his record in a debate"?

The fact that he's a better debater and speaker than both of them who will have a more clear, more concise message that he has already been honing for longer than they've been running their primary campaigns?

Or the fact that he gets to control the national dialogue to some degree as the sitting POTUS?

What exact things has he done that will win major points for Gingrich or Santorum with the middle? Or are you talking about all the right wing red meat they can throw out there that will see them do no better than McCain did last election?

Obama had this race effectively sown up when two GOP governors in the swing states of Wisconsin and Ohio picked a fight you just can't win by attacking the rights of firefighters, police officers, teachers, etc.. I know the fringe right things that is just fantastic but one of them had his proposal absolutely crushed and his approval rating drop to near congressional levels. The other, who pushed his through without the need for a public vote, is now being recalled along with his Lt. Gov and three senators.

The GOP has already dicked themselves over in both of those swing states. Not only have they engendered a ton of ill will, they've also stirred up a VERY active political groundwork that will be in place and fighting for over a year come the general.

Cap it off with a massive amount of GOP hostility and bile being spewed at the auto bailouts when those same bailouts are what kept Michigan as a whole from becoming a third world country. Its likely not even going to be a swing state.

So with Ohio, Wisconsin, and Michigan already gift wrapped for Obama and the reality that he isn't losing Pennsylvania or New Hampshire, even with a Romney/Santorum ticket he's at 264 of the 270 needed electoral votes. If he lands just one of the remaining swing states (VA, NC, FL, IA, MO, CO, NM, NV) he's won. He carried all of those swing states but one (MO) last time around.

The problem here for the GOP isn't about finding a good candidate, its finding a strategy that somehow lets you basically landslide the swing states. The only way that happens is another recession. If we maintain the slow and steady growth we've had for a couple of years now Obama is going to walk to a win.

Conservatives HATED McCain - he is more moderate than Romney is....by about a country mile. I'm laughing that some think Romney is too moderate, because it really shows you how ludicrious the last election was. It was Obama running against a "white-maverick" Obama. There is no difference between a McCain presidency and a Obama presidency - except this:

Obama motivates the republicans against him more than any other president since Carter. It's no coincidence that both terrible democrat presidents in the last 40 years (Carter and Obama) are ruining the power and the wealth of US. They run off of the same playbook. WELFARE STATE. PERIOD.

There are no McCains in this election - therefore, Obama is toast. The last election proves how much the right is awakened by a dangerous marxist president like Obama. Our economy is in the toilet and Obama put it there. Next.

Mile High Mojoe
01-22-2012, 11:56 AM
I just find the discussion at CP's political forum more interesting. It also doesn't seem to degenerate into stupid stuff as often, either. Our WRP forum is, for the lack of a better word, a cesspool.

I guess you call it a cess pool because somebody said something of which you disagree. Most liberal Democrats have this personality trait. You live in California the most FFed state in the union please give us some of your political wisdom it has to be more insightful and intelligent than what anyone has said here.

Brown’s answer is like Obama’s raise taxes; so it’ll prop up state employees and bloated government programs and entitlements right? Screw business and the taxpayer’s right?

That One Guy
01-22-2012, 12:00 PM
I just find the discussion at CP's political forum more interesting. It also doesn't seem to degenerate into stupid stuff as often, either. Our WRP forum is, for the lack of a better word, a cesspool.

Sincerely curious question, do they have the same party guardians like we have here? I always thought that was one of the most detrimental obstacles to discussion as they couldn't give an inch by criticizing their own party.

Mile High Mojoe
01-22-2012, 12:01 PM
Fed doesn't print money. The Treasury does. Treasury prints what's needed to pay for stuff BUSHiE and his cohorts didn't.


Investment firm bailouts. I recall, McCain "suspended" his campaign to go to DC to vote for the stimulus package. Many economists of all political stripes said it was necessary, else the banking industry in the US would collaspe. They didn't. Some even paid back all of the loans to date. But the Corporate Bigwigs still gave themselves big bonuses. Wow!


Wall Street Reform was a sincere effort to bring those scalawags under control. Watered down by the GOP House, it needs to be redone with stronger regulations, otherwise the housing scams could go on again. Qould you like that?
But we know that the GOP arseholes in the House did not want Warren to put up those regs to control Credit Card and lending practices. Tell me why.

Personal vacations? Bushie took more vacation times than the Obamas. These are not lavish trips, old bean. That is a laughable statemnt and exemplifies the jealousy and envy that Mittins talked so eloquently about, but in this case it is laced with racism.

Off Shore drilling was not banned. It was postponed. It has been since re-permitted with additional rules to protect the environment so that the Gulf Shore Incident would not be repeated. Alaska has been difficult for every one, but there is a tribe of natives there who do not want the Caribou migration to be interrupted whicn drilling there would do. Further, Environmental safeguards have not been assurred. If you wish to destroy the tundra, you can write your congresscritter and gripe.

College loans were being exploited by privateers. Since you wouldn't want regs and people hired to enforce them, the Government can do it less expensively.

The rest of your unsubstantiated and idiotic diatribe is dismisssed as being the rants of a bible toting, uneducated, gun hugging, toothless rube.

Bush didn't play much golf becasue he was p$ss poor at it. Obama is athletic. If Obama played 90 rounds in three years, that's....uh....ltes'd see, carry the one.....um.... he's played 2.5 rounds a month. Boner goes out every day. And he uses a Tanning product daily.

National Defense is a bit more than a small part of the National budget, good buddy. This is as ludicoius and stupid statement you have ever made. Look it up, rube. I am now convinced you are teenager who is trying to think adult but has no idea what the h3ll he.she/it/you are taklking back. Grow up kid and come back when you have any real facts with links to give us.

How do I respond to this horse****? Maybe just this way...our country is going right straight to hell and moonbats like you are helping us get there quicker because you think government can be all things to all people and that a genius like Obama should be in charge as he leads us to the gates.

SoCalBronco
01-22-2012, 12:02 PM
I guess you call it a cess pool because somebody said something of which you disagree. Most liberal Democrats have this personality trait. You live in California the most FFed state in the union please give us some of your political wisdom it has to be more insightful and intelligent than what anyone has said here.

Brown’s answer is like Obama’s raise taxes; so it’ll prop up state employees and bloated government programs and entitlements right? Screw business and the taxpayer’s right?

I'm not a liberal Democrat, chief. I'm a moderate Republican. And I disagree with people plenty on CP's politics forum.

Mile High Mojoe
01-22-2012, 12:05 PM
I'm not a liberal Democrat, chief. I'm a moderate Republican. And I disagree with people plenty on CP's politics forum.

Are you a moderate Republican in the vein of the Terminator, that kind of moderate?

SoCalBronco
01-22-2012, 12:08 PM
Are you a moderate Republican in the vein of the Terminator, that kind of moderate?

I don't care for Arnold, mostly because he's a moron.

Mile High Mojoe
01-22-2012, 12:11 PM
I don't care for Arnold, mostly because he's a moron.

Good because he didn't do anything to improve your situation he just kicked the can down the road.

When I hear the word moderate I think of GWB and God I hated him. We must at the very less get back to some fiscally conservative policies would you agree?

Rohirrim
01-22-2012, 12:11 PM
You're just on a completely different planet than the rest of us. None of what you say is true you need to do some more reading. You've drank a truckload of Obama's kool-aid and your news sources must be places like the Daily Show, MSNBC, the New York Slimes etc. It's impossible to debate blind followers and drones, impossible. Do you get all you're info off the White House website is that it?

And you're living in the Right Wing echo chamber of Fox News. Independents will decide this election. It doesn't matter how Santorum polls in the less than 30% that make up the Right. He'd get killed in a general election.

Mile High Mojoe
01-22-2012, 12:21 PM
And you're living in the Right Wing echo chamber of Fox News. Independents will decide this election. It doesn't matter how Santorum polls in the less than 30% that make up the Right. He'd get killed in a general election.

I don't watch Fox News; I get my news info solely from the web. Drudge, Free Republic, Red State, American Thinker, Pajamas Media, Hot Air, CNS News, Investors Business Daily, the Wall Street Journal, World Net Daily etc. I haven’t watched any network news since 2006.

You say Santorum gets killed in a general, I think you underestimate the hatred of Obama. They said the same about Reagan in 1980 and he bucked the odds.

Paladin
01-22-2012, 12:23 PM
How do I respond to this horse****? Maybe just this way...our country is going right straight to hell and moonbats like you are helping us get there quicker because you think government can be all things to all people and that a genius like Obama should be in charge as he leads us to the gates.

Look up the Presidents 2012 proposed budget. Since you know Google, you can find it. You will note that the DoD makes up about 20% of the entire budget, and it has not been reduced, but the rate of growth has been reduced a bit.

I am not a liberal, but a Center left Democrat as is Obama. But I would quote JFK:

"What do our opponents mean when they apply to us the label "Liberal?" If by "Liberal" they mean, as they want people to believe, someone who is soft in his policies abroad, who is against local government, and who is unconcerned with the taxpayer's dollar, then the record of this party and its members demonstrate that we are not that kind of "Liberal." But if by a "Liberal" they mean someone who looks ahead and not behind, someone who welcomes new ideas without rigid reactions, someone who cares about the welfare of the people -- their health, their housing, their schools, their jobs, their civil rights, and their civil liberties -- someone who believes we can break through the stalemate and suspicions that grip us in our policies abroad, if that is what they mean by a "Liberal," then I'm proud to say I'm a "Liberal." -JFK, September 14, 1960

I just hate the h3ll out of the stupid crap put out by rubes like you. I sure as h3ll do not want anyone like BUSHIE (read Gingrinch ) in there, nor do I think Mittins would be helpful at all. Not. At. All.

Your "list" of "grievences is nothing more than a compendium of misinformed BS perpretated by Faux "News". The downturn was started by BUSHIE and his cohorts. Obama has done a credible job in reversing the loss of jobs and the economic devastation BUSHIE and his cohorts brought on this Country.

Paladin
01-22-2012, 12:26 PM
Wait. Wait. You're saying Santorum is the new REAGAN?

Rohirrim
01-22-2012, 12:30 PM
I don't watch Fox News; I get my news info solely from the web. Drudge, Free Republic, Red State, American Thinker, Pajamas Media, Hot Air, CNS News, Investors Business Daily, the Wall Street Journal, World Net Daily etc. I haven’t watched any network news since 2006.

You say Santorum gets killed in a general, I think you underestimate the hatred of Obama. They said the same about Reagan in 1980 and he bucked the odds.

Yeah, I guess Fox News would be a little too left wing for you. Ha!

Mile High Mojoe
01-22-2012, 12:32 PM
Yeah, I guess Fox News would be a little too left wing for you. Ha!

I saw you posted a link from huffingtonpost.com what does that make you?

Mile High Mojoe
01-22-2012, 12:34 PM
Look up the Presidents 2012 proposed budget. Since you know Google, you can find it. You will note that the DoD makes up about 20% of the entire budget, and it has not been reduced, but the rate of growth has been reduced a bit.

I am not a liberal, but a Center left Democrat as is Obama. But I would quote JFK:

"What do our opponents mean when they apply to us the label "Liberal?" If by "Liberal" they mean, as they want people to believe, someone who is soft in his policies abroad, who is against local government, and who is unconcerned with the taxpayer's dollar, then the record of this party and its members demonstrate that we are not that kind of "Liberal." But if by a "Liberal" they mean someone who looks ahead and not behind, someone who welcomes new ideas without rigid reactions, someone who cares about the welfare of the people -- their health, their housing, their schools, their jobs, their civil rights, and their civil liberties -- someone who believes we can break through the stalemate and suspicions that grip us in our policies abroad, if that is what they mean by a "Liberal," then I'm proud to say I'm a "Liberal." -JFK, September 14, 1960

I just hate the h3ll out of the stupid crap put out by rubes like you. I sure as h3ll do not want anyone like BUSHIE (read Gingrinch ) in there, nor do I think Mittins would be helpful at all. Not. At. All.

Your "list" of "grievences is nothing more than a compendium of misinformed BS perpretated by Faux "News". The downturn was started by BUSHIE and his cohorts. Obama has done a credible job in reversing the loss of jobs and the economic devastation BUSHIE and his cohorts brought on this Country.

http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h318/gomilehigh/CeramicSOupSandwichPlate-GHK-College-fb-28662973-1-1-1.jpg

Rohirrim
01-22-2012, 12:34 PM
I saw you posted a link from huffingtonpost.com what does that make you?

http://www.wineoftheweek.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/joseph-stalin.jpg

Mile High Mojoe
01-22-2012, 12:35 PM
http://www.wineoftheweek.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/joseph-stalin.jpg

You made me laugh. Thank you.

houghtam
01-22-2012, 12:36 PM
I don’t buy for a second that he has as any of the mid-western states in the bag. He’ll win the NE states and the West coast states but all of the southern and flyovers will overwhelming vote Republican no matter who it is. [/I]

No.

I've lived in the Midwest for 29 years. The "hatred" you claim Obama engenders just isn't there. It's simply not true. Hell, I spent 2008-2010 in Georgia, Louisiana and Alabama, and its not really all that visible there, either. In the midwest, Obama MIGHT lose Ohio. All the other states that went for him in 08 will go for him again.

SoCalBronco
01-22-2012, 12:49 PM
Good because he didn't do anything to improve your situation he just kicked the can down the road.

When I hear the word moderate I think of GWB and God I hated him. We must at the very less get back to some fiscally conservative policies would you agree?

I agree that we must get back to fiscally conservative policies. That means both sides have to suffer. For one thing, the Bush tax cuts have to expire. They are one of the big drivers of the debt problem. That will save us around 3T. From there, there must also be significant changes to SS and Medicare in terms of eligibility ages and slowing inflationary increases in benefit formulas in addition to reductions in benefits as well. It's simply not sustainable. Some cuts in the defense area are needed as well, which the administration is starting. We've got to be careful about that though, I don't want to inhibit the intelligence services ability to fight terror or destabilize unfriendly regimes (even if they are democratically elected, I don't care. I'm not a fan of the Arab spring, because its detrimental to US security interests). We've got to be careful about going about these things, we dont want to get into more quagmires, but we certainly can and should act behind the scenes to help friends and give both carrot and sticks to foes to affect behavior modification and twist arms. I also don't want to hurt our R&D spending because I think from a defense perspective the key thing isn't quantitative suepriority, I think quantitative sufficiency is enough, but qualitative superiority is what's really important, so I do think there is alot of duplication in traditional weapon procurement which can be cut.

I don't particularly care for Reagan or Goldwater or Bush II (I did vote for him in 2000, however). I'm a huge fan of Nixon, though. A man of great achievement and a sensible and pragmatic leader. I think Huntsman was the best of the bunch this year. He has a really good economic record and is fiscally conservative in terms of being willing to make changes to SS/Medicare and replacing the Bush tax cuts with something less debt-crushing like Bowles-Simpson, along with being middle of the road on social, environmental and foreign policy issues. That's where I'm at. A centrist, mildly tilted to the Right.

I have mixed feelings about Romney and Gingrich. I cannot support Santorum or Paul under any circumstances. I respect Gingrich's intellect a great deal, he really is an ideas man and at heart he is a moderate. He has to demagogue things in order to pick his numbers up and he can play dirty, which is fine, but I respect his policy wonkness a great deal. He needs to discipline himself and also look at things more realistically in foreign affairs. He's a little too belligerent in his rhetoric (again, perhaps designed for the audience) and that is a problematic. Romney, I have far more problems with. Unlike Gingrich, I don't see that he has any actual talent at anything. He's an empty suit with alot of resources. I dont mind where he is ideologically thats fine, I just don't think he can handle the Presidency. He seems to be able to handle only perfect cookie cutter situations, you can see this in the campaign. He can't adjust when he's out of his element. Ordinarily, I dont like to put too much on someone's personality because that's usually irrelevant. I think people get too wrapped up in charismatic personalities when the underlying guy is worthless (JFK, Reagan, Bush II), but I think for Romney its not just personality, its a lack of talent. There's no savvy there, there's no experience with foreign powers, no great legislative ability, no power of persuation, there's nothing there of value. Huntsman was our best bet and the far right told him to F off. In November, you'll regret it. JMO.

DarkHorse30
01-22-2012, 01:16 PM
No.

I've lived in the Midwest for 29 years. The "hatred" you claim Obama engenders just isn't there. It's simply not true. Hell, I spent 2008-2010 in Georgia, Louisiana and Alabama, and its not really all that visible there, either. In the midwest, Obama MIGHT lose Ohio. All the other states that went for him in 08 will go for him again.

Why don't you open up a polling firm since you're so connected with the peeps?

Obama is wrecking our economy. The majority of America is aware of it and half of them vote. Obama is toast.

Rohirrim
01-22-2012, 01:24 PM
I agree that we must get back to fiscally conservative policies. That means both sides have to suffer. For one thing, the Bush tax cuts have to expire. They are one of the big drivers of the debt problem. That will save us around 3T. From there, there must also be significant changes to SS and Medicare in terms of eligibility ages and slowing inflationary increases in benefit formulas in addition to reductions in benefits as well. It's simply not sustainable. Some cuts in the defense area are needed as well, which the administration is starting. We've got to be careful about that though, I don't want to inhibit the intelligence services ability to fight terror or destabilize unfriendly regimes (even if they are democratically elected, I don't care. I'm not a fan of the Arab spring, because its detrimental to US security interests). We've got to be careful about going about these things, we dont want to get into more quagmires, but we certainly can and should act behind the scenes to help friends and give both carrot and sticks to foes to affect behavior modification and twist arms. I also don't want to hurt our R&D spending because I think from a defense perspective the key thing isn't quantitative suepriority, I think quantitative sufficiency is enough, but qualitative superiority is what's really important, so I do think there is alot of duplication in traditional weapon procurement which can be cut.

I don't particularly care for Reagan or Goldwater or Bush II (I did vote for him in 2000, however). I'm a huge fan of Nixon, though. A man of great achievement and a sensible and pragmatic leader. I think Huntsman was the best of the bunch this year. He has a really good economic record and is fiscally conservative in terms of being willing to make changes to SS/Medicare and replacing the Bush tax cuts with something less debt-crushing like Bowles-Simpson, along with being middle of the road on social, environmental and foreign policy issues. That's where I'm at. A centrist, mildly tilted to the Right.

I have mixed feelings about Romney and Gingrich. I cannot support Santorum or Paul under any circumstances. I respect Gingrich's intellect a great deal, he really is an ideas man and at heart he is a moderate. He has to demagogue things in order to pick his numbers up and he can play dirty, which is fine, but I respect his policy wonkness a great deal. He needs to discipline himself and also look at things more realistically in foreign affairs. He's a little too belligerent in his rhetoric (again, perhaps designed for the audience) and that is a problematic. Romney, I have far more problems with. Unlike Gingrich, I don't see that he has any actual talent at anything. He's an empty suit with alot of resources. I dont mind where he is ideologically thats fine, I just don't think he can handle the Presidency. He seems to be able to handle only perfect cookie cutter situations, you can see this in the campaign. He can't adjust when he's out of his element. Ordinarily, I dont like to put too much on someone's personality because that's usually irrelevant. I think people get too wrapped up in charismatic personalities when the underlying guy is worthless (JFK, Reagan, Bush II), but I think for Romney its not just personality, its a lack of talent. There's no savvy there, there's no experience with foreign powers, no great legislative ability, no power of persuation, there's nothing there of value. Huntsman was our best bet and the far right told him to F off. In November, you'll regret it. JMO.

I don't get how "A centrist, mildly tilted to the Right" wouldn't be perfectly happy with another four years of Obama?

houghtam
01-22-2012, 01:27 PM
Why don't you open up a polling firm since you're so connected with the peeps?

Obama is wrecking our economy. The majority of America is aware of it and half of them vote. Obama is toast.

Don't need polls to tell me what I already know. Obama wins '12 in a landslide.

BroncoBeavis
01-22-2012, 01:27 PM
You guys really talking pols during the AFC championship? :)

That One Guy
01-22-2012, 01:37 PM
You guys really talking pols during the AFC championship? :)

Are you watching this? Game kinda sucks.

houghtam
01-22-2012, 01:40 PM
Are you watching this? Game kinda sucks.

This.

Besides, the only AFC (non-AFC West) team I hate more than the Patriots is the Ravens.

Can't wait for baseball season.

BroncoBeavis
01-22-2012, 01:52 PM
This.

Besides, the only AFC (non-AFC West) team I hate more than the Patriots is the Ravens.

Can't wait for baseball season.

Meh. Baseball only gets interesting about the time football starts.

houghtam
01-22-2012, 02:02 PM
Meh. Baseball only gets interesting about the time football starts.

To each their own. That's why I like baseball better than football. You can enjoy baseball on so many more levels than football. People can go to a game and simply go there for the atmosphere, or you can be like me and watch every pitch and the positioning of every player, what they do between pitches, etc. 162 games means a team has to be consistently good over the course of the season...greater sample size means more legitimate playoff teams, to me.

Football is the sport you grow up with, baseball the sport you grow old with.

SoCalBronco
01-22-2012, 02:05 PM
I don't get how "A centrist, mildly tilted to the Right" wouldn't be perfectly happy with another four years of Obama?

I am very ambivalent about Obama. I find his spending practices extremely reckless. I am willing to give him some benefit for the fact that since consumer spending was non-existent, they had to do something to keep the economy afloat, so incurring some measure of additional debt was reasonable, but he's added much more than dozens of Presidents combined. The circumstances of the situation were not his fault, but I'm still not a fan of mortgaging the future for the present. To his credit, he has proposed a "grand bargain" of future cuts (4T) mainly in Medicare/SS changes which required some real backbone in facing off with base. It's unfortunate Boehner couldn't get the required votes from the moron wing to get this deal done. With regard to health care, I find the goals of what's trying to accomplish as admirable, but this is simply not the proper era to be expanding benefits to millions of people. It's an age of austerity. It's about consolidation not expansion until economic growth gets on a roll. I think what would have been fine would be to keep the insurance exchanges so as to create some competition and maybe a small voucher to help the poor offset health costs but that's about it (for now). I think after the doctor fix, the CBO scored the total program as adding to the deficit on balance, which is a non-starter. I give the President credit for arms control with the Russians and getting OBL. These are nice achievements. I'm still not thrilled about what's going on in the Mideast. I know they were in a PR bind but I'm still not a fan of allowing radical Islamists to take power in a strategic region (I'd rather have Qaddafi, even though he's a scumbag, because he's adversarial with Al Qaeda and wouldnt' share oil revenues with them, than a "democratically elected" Islamist, who is cozier with Al Qaeda). I'm not one of those "expand freedom and democracy types". I'm most concerned with protecting stability (you can gag now) and US security and economic interests. I'm concerned that with the new leadership in Libya, Egypt and now maybe Syria, the administration is idly standing by allowing extremists to take over under the guise of democracy. Ofcourse, some of our candidates right now are advocating things that would inflame the region even more, so I'm not saying that would be better, just what I'm concerned about.

He deserves a mixed grade. I don't hate him, but I don't like him either. If Obama allows the Bush tax cuts to expire later this year and then makes another really strong effort at getting significant Medicare/SS changes in to rein in the long term debt, I will give him some consideration depending on who the opponent is.

Paladin
01-22-2012, 03:16 PM
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h318/gomilehigh/CeramicSOupSandwichPlate-GHK-College-fb-28662973-1-1-1.jpg

Fail. More of your BS. You don't know a thing about me, and yet you continue to guess. It's a symptom common to the Bible toting, gun hugging, rubes and right wing nuts. Google teh DoD budget yet?

Try and get some education before you go out into the world. You to could grab a better job.......

DarkHorse30
01-22-2012, 03:18 PM
Don't need polls to tell me what I already know. Obama wins '12 in a landslide.

So - since you're in Michigan, what do the unions think about Obama killing the pipeline? Just a question, based on where you are from, just curious since you've got the pulse of the peeps.

houghtam
01-22-2012, 04:28 PM
So - since you're in Michigan, what do the unions think about Obama killing the pipeline? Just a question, based on where you are from, just curious since you've got the pulse of the peeps.

I actually live in Indiana right now, I'm from Michigan originally, spent 5 years in Cincinnati.

The unions will vote for the democrat, regardless of how they feel about the pipeline. However, although the unions are still pretty powerful on the local and state levels, they aren't anywhere near the force in national elections that they once were.

As for Indiana, I have a feeling they're going to go even more strongly toward the left, as the Right To Work legislation the right is trying to push through in this state has all the libs up in arms. Personally I could care less how it affects wages, no one should be able to say "you have to join this union if you want to work here".

peacepipe
01-22-2012, 04:34 PM
I actually live in Indiana right now, I'm from Michigan originally, spent 5 years in Cincinnati.

The unions will vote for the democrat, regardless of how they feel about the pipeline. However, although the unions are still pretty powerful on the local and state levels, they aren't anywhere near the force in national elections that they once were.

As for Indiana, I have a feeling they're going to go even more strongly toward the left, as the Right To Work legislation the right is trying to push through in this state has all the libs up in arms. Personally I could care less how it affects wages, no one should be able to say "you have to join this union if you want to work here".well of course they will. considering reps. like scott walker, john kasichs etc. why would they vote republican.

Drek
01-22-2012, 04:50 PM
Huntsman was our best bet and the far right told him to F off. In November, you'll regret it. JMO.

This is what I've been telling people for months. Huntsman is an intelligent moderate with the right amount of fiscal conservatism for the current economic climate. He's got the executive experience and it was focused on job creation. He had a real tax reform plan which none of the others have trotted out. He knows our greatest economic rival better than almost any other U.S. citizen. But because he believes in things that the vast majority of scientists in those specific fields believe in he's ostracized and treated as the guy who "can't win".

Huntsman could have beaten Obama even with the mild economic growth we're experiencing now continuing. He could have stolen states in the northeast like NH, ME, and maybe even PA. He would have swept the mountain region. Probably would have gotten two of OH, WI, and MI. At least one of NC or VA. He was the safe bet if the GOP wanted to win, not these well know, not well liked, even less well trusted staples of the party that middle America already views with skepticism.

I do look forward to him running in 2016 though. Unless the dems can pull someone like Evan Bayh in within the next 4 years, get him involved and building more of a resume, they really don't have a great candidate to run against Huntsman.

houghtam
01-22-2012, 05:16 PM
Additionally, I don't think some of you guys realize exactly how left-leaning the Midwest is. Just look at the voting history of states like Michigan (past 5 elections), Wisconsin (past 6 elections), Minnesota (past 9 elections), Illinois (past 5 elections), Pennsylvania (past 5 elections), Iowa (5 of past 6 elections). Even Ohio has voted Dem 3 of the past 5. I don't see that changing.

DarkHorse30
01-22-2012, 06:25 PM
Moderate candidates means more gov't. NO conservative wanted Huntsman - he was a joke. Obama against Huntsman would have been like McCain II - Obama might have lucked a win, but against ANY conservative he has to look his own record of achievement in the eye. Change? Yes, from your horrible leadership BHO. Bad economy - no jobs - no pride in America - Nothing. Goodbye Barry

Paladin
01-22-2012, 10:54 PM
Fail.

alkemical
01-23-2012, 05:26 AM
https://encrypted-tbn2.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQXJT90WAIk8jiNfkPmehalzYn5w2JdO JJmJwc_WoguIDXmFIhyJA

alkemical
01-23-2012, 05:28 AM
https://encrypted-tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTFp4K2Y6_IuD7NaVKEVGdgj7s1vC7pn rEKsBfpbS8wqk6-TeJS8Q

alkemical
01-23-2012, 05:32 AM
https://encrypted-tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTFyBAO2ehjewnXbQA4T-qmJ5oGPeAUGA3wDpBRn14Joz50OsYtcw

fdf
01-23-2012, 06:30 AM
What exactly do we do to stop pork and whatnot?

Reduce the power of Congress to spend money by radically reducing Federal tax take. Make deficit spending a jailable offense. Restore the Commerce Clause to its original meaning. Make madates on the states attached to spending bills unconstitutional. Reduce employment in administrative agencies by about 80%.

Politicians and bureaucrats will eventually abuse whatever power they are given and will misspend any money they get. That does not change--the Federalist papers are full of argument about how to deal with this very thing. The only way to avoid bad consequences from government is to give them a lot less power.

So you don't stop pork. But you make it really limited because there's not that much money. The real problem though is cronyism between an overwhelmingly rich and powerful government and members of the ruling class--that includes unions and large corporations. The more power the government has to grant favors to its buds and the more money it has to throw around, the more cronyism and the worse the results.

alkemical
01-23-2012, 06:34 AM
For any form of "democracy" that we have here in the USA - requires personal responsibility to hold accountable those whom represent us.

Why don't we prosecute those who fail us for their own greed?

Why don't we recall those who are corrupting the system?

Why don't we get involved locally?

Why do we only approach it with our votes?

We complain that they aren't listening to us, but in fact - they are. They give us exactly what we want to hear - and we are glad and happy to point the finger elsewhere instead of accepting the responsibility that we...got us into this mess?

alkemical
01-23-2012, 06:36 AM
Why aren't "We The People" accepting responsibility for this mess, and keep waiting for some magic answer to the solution(s)?

TonyR
01-23-2012, 07:18 AM
...The GOP has two constituancies: one is a jealous, spiteful, ignorant group of prejudiced rednecks proud to be poor but better than the black folk, and the other is a white, rich and superrich group of manipulators that play like the Monopoly Man who want to preserve priviledge and no taxes and "free enteprise." Those two constituancies are not compatable, and that's why there may well be a third party. And that would screw the GOP for a long time, maybe forty years...

Yup. The poll linked below shows that 35 percent of Republicans believe Obama is a Muslim compared to 11 percent of Democrats and 16 percent of Independents. What a bunch of dopes.

http://cdn.yougov.com/downloads/releases/econ/20120114_econTabReport.pdf

TonyR
01-23-2012, 09:52 AM
Republicans in Washington knew exactly what Newt was, but for over a decade they've chosen to pretend otherwise, either because he was useful to have on TV attacking the Democrats, or just because that's how Republicans do things. So after treating him as a distinguished statesman and brilliant conservative politician for over a decade, despite clearly not believing it (as was shown the second he spiked in the polls in December), they're just getting exactly what they deserve.http://plainblogaboutpolitics.blogspot.com/2012/01/republicans-have-themselves-to-blame.html

Republicans are faced with an unfortunate predicament entirely of their own making: they can rally behind the Republican Bill Clinton to try to stop Romney, or they can nominate the liar.http://www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/2012/01/19/gingrichs-ex-wife-and-the-republicans-predicament/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=gingrichs-ex-wife-and-the-republicans-predicament

alkemical
01-23-2012, 10:59 AM
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/22/business/apple-america-and-a-squeezed-middle-class.html?pagewanted=1&_r=2

How the U.S. Lost Out on iPhone Work

bendog
01-23-2012, 12:05 PM
Obama's a super secret muslim who hides his true faith behing Jeramiah Wright at that white papist priest who hates his own whiteness. Newt is the only one who can save us from this "multiculturalism bs." Americans only need one culture.

(-:

Seriously, if Newt can somehow be credible in Fla, we might see something like Perot. If Newt is somehow the nominee, the gop may become a regional party extending from Miss to S. Car, including Kentucky but w/o Fla.

TonyR
01-23-2012, 01:18 PM
It's striking that almost none of Gingrich's former colleagues in the House has endorsed him for president. Striking that nobody associated with a past Republican presidential association has done so. He is a candidate of talk-show hosts and local activists -- and of course of Rick Perry and Sarah Palin -- but not of those who know him best and have worked with him most closely. Gingrich may raise more money after his South Carolina win. But prediction: Romney will raise even more, among the great national network of Republicans who recognize that to nominate Gingrich is to commit party suicide.http://www.cnn.com/2012/01/23/opinion/frum-gingrich-enthusiasm/index.html

Tombstone RJ
01-23-2012, 01:31 PM
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/22/business/apple-america-and-a-squeezed-middle-class.html?pagewanted=1&_r=2

How the U.S. Lost Out on iPhone Work

Here's a quick reason why Apple produces overseas in countries like China, please note: A foreman immediately roused 8,000 workers inside the company’s dormitories, according to the executive. Each employee was given a biscuit and a cup of tea, guided to a workstation and within half an hour started a 12-hour shift fitting glass screens into beveled frames. Within 96 hours, the plant was producing over 10,000 iPhones a day.

“The speed and flexibility is breathtaking,” the executive said. “There’s no American plant that can match that.”

Do you think for one instance this kind of labor would be tolerated in the USA? Let me answer that for you--no!

Why don't the labor unions go to China and fix this kind of crap? Oh yah, because they just want to milk the USA system for all it's worth and then bitch and moan when companies like Apple go overseas to produce hardware.

bendog
01-23-2012, 01:42 PM
When Haley Barbour says Newt as the nominee would be a catastrophe (or something like that) .... Babour pardoned over 200 felons on his last day, including five who killed their wives. Mississippi, the kill your wife and get pardoned state.

ummm, how exactly would a US union go to china to organize?

Tombstone RJ
01-23-2012, 01:46 PM
When Haley Barbour says Newt as the nominee would be a catastrophe (or something like that) .... Babour pardoned over 200 felons on his last day, including five who killed their wives. Mississippi, the kill your wife and get pardoned state.

ummm, how exactly would a US union go to china to organize?

How did unions organize in the US and Europe to begin with? Unions in the USA are devious in their approach, I'm pretty sure they could go to countries in Asia and start getting people riled up about unfair labor practices.

the reality is unions don't care about the workers, if they did, they'd be fighting in countries around the world that consistenly abuse labor. The only things unions care about is their own money.

bendog
01-23-2012, 01:54 PM
How did unions organize in the US and Europe to begin with? Unions in the USA are devious in their approach, I'm pretty sure they could go to countries in Asia and start getting people riled up about unfair labor practices.

the reality is unions don't care about the workers, if they did, they'd be fighting in countries around the world that consistenly abuse labor. The only things unions care about is their own money.

Seriously, use your public library.

Tombstone RJ
01-23-2012, 01:57 PM
Seriously, use your public library.

LOL

look who's talking.

gyldenlove
01-23-2012, 02:11 PM
Here's a quick reason why Apple produces overseas in countries like China, please note: A foreman immediately roused 8,000 workers inside the company’s dormitories, according to the executive. Each employee was given a biscuit and a cup of tea, guided to a workstation and within half an hour started a 12-hour shift fitting glass screens into beveled frames. Within 96 hours, the plant was producing over 10,000 iPhones a day.

“The speed and flexibility is breathtaking,” the executive said. “There’s no American plant that can match that.”

Do you think for one instance this kind of labor would be tolerated in the USA? Let me answer that for you--no!

Why don't the labor unions go to China and fix this kind of crap? Oh yah, because they just want to milk the USA system for all it's worth and then b**** and moan when companies like Apple go overseas to produce hardware.

Vote for Newt! he will give you an army of poor children who can work for a few dollars a day since they don't need education - and they will learn how to make money!

gyldenlove
01-23-2012, 02:12 PM
How did unions organize in the US and Europe to begin with? Unions in the USA are devious in their approach, I'm pretty sure they could go to countries in Asia and start getting people riled up about unfair labor practices.

the reality is unions don't care about the workers, if they did, they'd be fighting in countries around the world that consistenly abuse labor. The only things unions care about is their own money.

Why the hell would American unions give 2 ****s about Chinese workers? They care about their members, that is who pays them.

alkemical
01-23-2012, 03:44 PM
so, who's in favor of chinese working conditions and would relish that opportunity?

Rohirrim
01-23-2012, 04:02 PM
How did unions organize in the US and Europe to begin with? Unions in the USA are devious in their approach, I'm pretty sure they could go to countries in Asia and start getting people riled up about unfair labor practices.

the reality is unions don't care about the workers, if they did, they'd be fighting in countries around the world that consistenly abuse labor. The only things unions care about is their own money.

In China, it's against the law to be in a union. If you are found to be a member of a union, you go to prison.

TonyR
01-23-2012, 04:37 PM
Good stuff from Sullivan today on the GOP train wreck. It's funny, sad, and frightening at the same time.

http://andrewsullivan.thedailybeast.com/2012/01/red-rage.html

houghtam
01-23-2012, 04:44 PM
In China, it's against the law to be in a union. If you are found to be a member of a union, you go to prison.

Wait, but he's pretty sure they could go there and start getting people riled up, so...

Tombstone RJ
01-23-2012, 05:11 PM
In China, it's against the law to be in a union. If you are found to be a member of a union, you go to prison.

really, yah think? How about India other Asian countries that have labor issues. Start somewhere in Asia where labor is abused and then watch it take root in countries like China

Listen, I deal with China, I know what is going on labor/middle class wise there. The more people become accustomed to money and a better life, the more they will be open to better labor no matter what their oppressive government thinks.

Do you all know that China is shut down right now for the Chinese New Year? Probably not but I know this because, well, we by crap from them directly.

Mile High Mojoe
01-23-2012, 05:11 PM
Good stuff from Sullivan today on the GOP train wreck. It's funny, sad, and frightening at the same time.

http://andrewsullivan.thedailybeast.com/2012/01/red-rage.html

Why would I take anything Sullivan says seriously? The man has come out and readily admitted he's an ardent supporter of Obama. Why would I read anything he has to say when he’s a partisan reporter, like most are in the main stream media? You honestly expect me to believe Sullivan isn’t going to the left when he writes an opinion piece?

You lefties are like a group of lost dogs following a trail of crumbs from men and women in the media who don’t have first freaking clue about what the trend of any voter or group of voters will do. It’s Obama and the Left Wing Congress that will be doomed and will be cleaned out in Nov.

Creeps like Sullivan live in this plastic bubble with all their progressive friends inside the Washington beltway shoveling **** by the hour. Between cocktail parties and lavishes dinners with the Obama administration they find time in their busy days to educated us rubes about how the GOP is doomed. Spare me, they’ve all been dead wrong about the GOP party and what the results would be in the primaries.

But please keep spreading the BS thick amongst yourselves maybe it’ll make you feel better about yourself.

houghtam
01-23-2012, 05:15 PM
Why would I take anything Sullivan says seriously?

You wouldn't, because you're a conservative schill who will be sitting there on the first Wednesday in November wondering "What happened?" and then coming on here crying about how Obama is ruining the world.

TonyR
01-23-2012, 05:27 PM
Why would I take anything Sullivan says seriously?

He's a conservative who, like me and all people whose eyes are open to what's going on, mourns the derangment of what used to be the conservative party in this country. People like you illustrate perfectly what has gone so fantastically wrong.

In 1959, Vice-President Nixon, speaking to members of California’s Commonwealth Club, was asked if he’d like to see the parties undergo an ideological realignment—the sort that has since taken place—and he replied, "I think it would be a great tragedy . . . if we had our two major political parties divide on what we would call a conservative-liberal line." He continued, "I think one of the attributes of our political system has been that we have avoided generally violent swings in Administrations from one extreme to the other. And the reason we have avoided that is that in both parties there has been room for a broad spectrum of opinion." Therefore, "when your Administrations come to power, they will represent the whole people rather than just one segment of the people."

Ten months before the general election, the increasingly angry, suspicious, and divided party of Romney, Gingrich, Santorum, and Perry seems ever more immersed in its current orthodoxies. None of the candidates, though, seem the least bit interested in even addressing how they, or their party, might actually govern the "whole people" of a fractious nation.http://www.newyorker.com/talk/comment/2012/01/23/120123taco_talk_frank#ixzz1jdcNaVhT

Drek
01-23-2012, 06:08 PM
Here's a quick reason why Apple produces overseas in countries like China, please note: A foreman immediately roused 8,000 workers inside the company’s dormitories, according to the executive. Each employee was given a biscuit and a cup of tea, guided to a workstation and within half an hour started a 12-hour shift fitting glass screens into beveled frames. Within 96 hours, the plant was producing over 10,000 iPhones a day.

“The speed and flexibility is breathtaking,” the executive said. “There’s no American plant that can match that.”

Do you think for one instance this kind of labor would be tolerated in the USA? Let me answer that for you--no!

Why don't the labor unions go to China and fix this kind of crap? Oh yah, because they just want to milk the USA system for all it's worth and then b**** and moan when companies like Apple go overseas to produce hardware.

So you see no problem with them treating humans like livestock, kept in the corporate barn and roused up at all hours to be worked?

Paladin
01-23-2012, 06:42 PM
Go, Ginger, go......

Go, Mittens, go........

Beat the unholy h3ll out of each other. It would be so right.........


So, how are all you tighty whitey righty numbnuts tonight?

Cito Pelon
01-23-2012, 08:29 PM
He's a conservative who, like me and all people whose eyes are open to what's going on, mourns the derangment of what used to be the conservative party in this country. People like you illustrate perfectly what has gone so fantastically wrong.

http://www.newyorker.com/talk/comment/2012/01/23/120123taco_talk_frank#ixzz1jdcNaVhT

Good post, IMO. I saw some good posts from SoCal above. Center-right, Center-left, those are the candidates that I support. The center is the key. The fringes Left or Right have to be marginalized, they stall debate, they stall compromise. There has to be compromise so you have movement.

Bronco Yoda
01-23-2012, 08:56 PM
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/22/business/apple-america-and-a-squeezed-middle-class.html?pagewanted=1&_r=2

How the U.S. Lost Out on iPhone Work

It is said that Apple manufacturing (and direct ancillary jobs) is responsible for as much as ON MILLION jobs in China alone. ONE MILLION!!!


Too bad Steve Jobs didn't = American jobs.

Thanks Steve for being a great American!

Willynowei
01-23-2012, 09:42 PM
It is said that Apple manufacturing (and direct ancillary jobs) is responsible for as much as ON MILLION jobs in China alone. ONE MILLION!!!


Too bad Steve Jobs didn't = American jobs.

Thanks Steve for being a great American!


Apple executives say that going overseas, at this point, is their only option. One former executive described how the company relied upon a Chinese factory to revamp iPhone manufacturing just weeks before the device was due on shelves. Apple had redesigned the iPhone’s screen at the last minute, forcing an assembly line overhaul. New screens began arriving at the plant near midnight.

A foreman immediately roused 8,000 workers inside the company’s dormitories, according to the executive. Each employee was given a biscuit and a cup of tea, guided to a workstation and within half an hour started a 12-hour shift fitting glass screens into beveled frames. Within 96 hours, the plant was producing over 10,000 iPhones a day.

“The speed and flexibility is breathtaking,” the executive said. “There’s no American plant that can match that.”


The Chinese flat out work harder, and at less convenient hours than the Americans who work in such industries.

Go overseas and speak to some of these people, ask them about their workday, ask them about 12 hours shifts for 7 days a week so their kids can put clothes on.

America is not getting those jobs back. The focus needs to be on what competitive advantages American workers do have, and focus on amplifying those advantages with the wealth this nation currently possesses.

Willynowei
01-23-2012, 10:01 PM
So you see no problem with them treating humans like livestock, kept in the corporate barn and roused up at all hours to be worked?

This is done in America for all of the highest paying and most "esteemed" jobs at the junior level positions.

Ask an I-banking analyst/associate or 2nd year legal associate what their life is like.

The difference is, people who are willing to work like an animal in America get paid 150k+, in China, they get paid a live-able wage, and that's it.

It's not cool when a firm pressures people into things they didn't sign up for by threatening termination,etc., but in a lot of these situations, people know exactly what they signed up for, consented to it, and would do it again if given the choice, because life on a farm is not fun in China/Indonesia/etc.,

extralife
01-23-2012, 10:12 PM
The Chinese flat out work harder, and at less convenient hours than the Americans who work in such industries.

Go overseas and speak to some of these people, ask them about their workday, ask them about 12 hours shifts for 7 days a week so their kids can put clothes on.

America is not getting those jobs back. The focus needs to be on what competitive advantages American workers do have, and focus on amplifying those advantages with the wealth this nation currently possesses.

actually the focus needs to be on not living in a world that exploits its citizens to that degree for the capricious whims of rich megalomaniacs and clueless petty bourgeoisie commercial fancy

Willynowei
01-23-2012, 10:12 PM
In China, it's against the law to be in a union. If you are found to be a member of a union, you go to prison.

Like how they used to use the sherman anti-trust act in the US to the same effect?

Willynowei
01-23-2012, 10:15 PM
actually the focus needs to be on not living in a world that exploits its citizens to that degree for the capricious whims of rich megalomaniacs and clueless petty bourgeoisie commercial fancy

lol.

And then you woke up.

Cito Pelon
01-23-2012, 10:25 PM
The Chinese flat out work harder, and at less convenient hours than the Americans who work in such industries.

Go overseas and speak to some of these people, ask them about their workday, ask them about 12 hours shifts for 7 days a week so their kids can put clothes on.

America is not getting those jobs back. The focus needs to be on what competitive advantages American workers do have, and focus on amplifying those advantages with the wealth this nation currently possesses.

It's a crazy world. 20 years ago Chinese were dying in cargo containers trying to get to the USA to get a job, now they're in sweat shops in their own country because they have those jobs.

Willynowei
01-23-2012, 10:34 PM
It's a crazy world. 20 years ago Chinese were dying in cargo containers trying to get to the USA to get a job, now they're in sweat shops in their own country because they have those jobs.

It's also no secret that Americans used to work harder. Historically, every "rich" country always became fat and lazy, while its enemies plotted and gathered for its destruction.

America has lost its edge. The fall of the soviet union is analogous to the moment that the Romans thought they killed all the barbarians.

Some would argue that fluency in Arabic, Chinese, or Portugese is more valuable than almost any post-graduate degree you can get in the U.S. today, certainly if not from a top school etc.,

houghtam
01-23-2012, 10:37 PM
It's also no secret that Americans used to work harder. Historically, every "rich" country always became fat and lazy, while its enemies plotted and gathered for its destruction.

America has lost its edge. The fall of the soviet union is analogous to the moment that the Romans thought they killed all the barbarians.

Some would argue that fluency in Arabic, Chinese, or Portugese is more valuable than almost any post-graduate degree you can get in the U.S. today.

Cosign. Add to that list just about any other language than English, though.

extralife
01-23-2012, 10:40 PM
lost it's edge? we exported the edge, because it's not an "edge" at all, it's a neurosis, the inevitable side effect of hegemonic forces designed to dominate cultural discourse for their own gain. in a post industrial (and particularly global) society, those forces are transformed from a fixation on production to a fixation on consumption. screwing a piece of glass onto a piece of plastic for twelve hours a day is not working hard, it's working stupid. our "hard work" is the mental rigamarole of actually justifying the existence of this huge mound of garbage that drives the global debt economy. the chinese don't do their part because they are hard workers, they do it because the collusion of their government with ours will literally kill them if they don't. we don't do ours because we are lazy, we do it because we have been systematically told that our desires and beliefs are ideal desires and beliefs. to glorify this slavery as some sort of ideal, idiotic ethical code is to give up.

Willynowei
01-23-2012, 10:43 PM
lost it's edge? we exported the edge, because it's not an "edge" at all, it's a neurosis, the inevitable side effect of hegemonic forces designed to dominate cultural discourse for their own gain. in a post industrial (and particularly global) society, those forces are transformed from a fixation on production to a fixation on consumption. screwing a piece of glass onto a piece of plastic for twelve hours a day is not working hard, it's working stupid. the chinese don't do it because they are hard workers, they do it because the collusion of their government with ours will literally kill them if they don't. to glorify this slavery under some idiotic ethical code is to give up.

I sincerely hope you're still in school.

extralife
01-23-2012, 10:47 PM
I'm sure your reductio argument, which would essentially boil down to ::dealwithit.gif:: (which I emphatically will, as a man both alive and unfortunately interested in staying that way) peppered with yawn-worthy anti-intellectual platitudes and other linguistic refuse, will teach my heathen brain the ways and wonders of "the (sur)real world"

Willynowei
01-23-2012, 10:54 PM
I'm sure your reductio argument, which would essentially boil down to ::dealwithit.gif:: peppered with yawn-worthy anti-intellectual platitudes and other linguistic refuse, will teach my heathen brain the ways and wonders of "the (sur)real world"

You are verbose, judgmental, and nearly as arrogant as you are ignorant.

That is okay, because you're probably in high school or College (I hope), and you need to go out and explore the world to enrich your perception of it.

Taco John
01-23-2012, 10:58 PM
So you see no problem with them treating humans like livestock, kept in the corporate barn and roused up at all hours to be worked?

Most Americans don't if you take the success of the iPhone as any sort of indicator.

Willynowei
01-23-2012, 11:05 PM
lost it's edge? we exported the edge, because it's not an "edge" at all, it's a neurosis, the inevitable side effect of hegemonic forces designed to dominate cultural discourse for their own gain. in a post industrial (and particularly global) society, those forces are transformed from a fixation on production to a fixation on consumption. screwing a piece of glass onto a piece of plastic for twelve hours a day is not working hard, it's working stupid. our "hard work" is the mental rigamarole of actually justifying the existence of this huge mound of garbage that drives the global debt economy. the chinese don't do their part because they are hard workers, they do it because the collusion of their government with ours will literally kill them if they don't. we don't do ours because we are lazy, we do it because we have been systematically told that our desires and beliefs are ideal desires and beliefs. to glorify this slavery as some sort of ideal, idiotic ethical code is to give up.

1.) Shall we use a dictionary, or will you dictate to me what well worn sayings and clearly defined verbs mean? I can play this game all day, actually, I'd rather not.

2.) Read up on what China was like before FDI friendly policies arrived in the 70's under Deng. Read about the cultural revolution, read about the different property ownership policies they used; educate yourself. Then go visit China today, and you tell me if you'd like to reformulate your thesis.

3.) Such is life, you are shaped by your environment every bit as much as your peers, have some humility. Who knows if an ipod is ideal, but I can tell you that my instantaneous access to such a broad and deep musical collection is something past kings would have killed for. Should i run a list on everything from air travel to refrigeration here?

4.) I never said that, but its good to know that you are against "this slavery(as you define it)" being an "ethical code".

extralife
01-23-2012, 11:07 PM
you need to go out and explore the world to enrich your perspective of it.

maybe I can unearth your anemic historical conclusions in the footnotes of carmen, san diego

extralife
01-23-2012, 11:18 PM
2.) Read up on what China was like before FDI friendly policies arrived in the 70's under Deng. Read about the cultural revolution, read about the different property ownership policies they used; educate yourself. Then go visit China today, and you tell me if you'd like to reformulate your thesis.

how cute that you think the cultural revolution was anything but the same tune on a different instrument. I know, I know, China today is a bastion of all that is holy, the people make due, they are humble, they are patriotic, they are grounded and beautiful, The Great One has delivered them from poverty and ineptitude, they will soon rule the world and all will know the might of whatever it is they're supposed to know the might of. stop me if it sounds familiar.

Who knows if an ipod is ideal, but I can tell you that my instantaneous access to such a broad and deep musical collection is something past kings would have killed for.

would have, could have, and literally do, right now, today. I'm going to pretend you're not essentially arguing that a piece of gaudy consumerist superfluity is literally worth its weight in flesh and blood, and that technological (nee intellectual) innovation and development is 100% intrinsically, necessarily beholden to unethical and insidious systems of economics and cultural ideology. what I won't pretend to do, however, is figure out what in the hell of all that is holy you actually <i>are</i> trying to say. oh, wait, let me find it:

I'm sure your reductio argument, which would essentially boil down to ::dealwithit.gif:: (which I emphatically will, as a man both alive and unfortunately interested in staying that way) peppered with yawn-worthy anti-intellectual platitudes and other linguistic refuse, will teach my heathen brain the ways and wonders of "the (sur)real world"

there we go

4.) I never said that

oh, you never said anything. to be dim and calcified!

Willynowei
01-23-2012, 11:24 PM
maybe I can unearth your anemic historical conclusions in the footnotes of carmen, san diego

Ah, change of topic? Not an area you want to challenge me on buddy, even with the help of wikipedia. ;-)

But you know what, it was a lot of fun arguing with you on this message board, using a laptop with rubber dome input sensors on a keyboard tied to a monitor with micro cells that twist to generate color - all created for my petty bourgeois fancy. But of course you're not using any of those things - it would be against your principals!

So after this conversation, tomorrow when I'm listening to a symphony that even the most powerful world leaders 200 years ago could never dream of listening to, while eating meals crafted from ingredients scattered around the world, I'm going to be thinking about how terrible it is for the poor people in China!

And it will be so much worse when I'm ****ing some broad I met at the Club while the condom keeps me free of disease. Of course, the skype conversation that lets me keep in touch with the one chick I have in San Diego, whose flying in to see me in March, is just a petty bourgeois fancy, right? So when I'm ****ing her, I'll keep that in mind.

But of course you're too good for all that ;)

Nice talking to ya, you can have the last word, I'll just take all my terribly vein and neurotic pleasures and live out every last drop of this life I have, while I have it.

Willynowei
01-23-2012, 11:26 PM
I'm going to pretend you're not essentially arguing that a piece of gaudy consumerist superfluity is literally worth its weight in flesh and blood, and that technological (nee intellectual) innovation and development is 100% intrinsically, necessarily beholden to unethical and insidious systems of economics and cultural ideology.

Yup. That's exactly what I'm arguing. Good job you found it! ;)

Lets end it on a high note, good night!

extralife
01-23-2012, 11:28 PM
and, as always, we end with the furious resolve to stuff our penises in whatever catch-alls we can concoct for their placation. if only I'd have introduced the firearm in act I in anticipation! always next time.

lonestar
01-24-2012, 12:36 AM
Yup. The poll linked below shows that 35 percent of Republicans believe Obama is a Muslim compared to 11 percent of Democrats and 16 percent of Independents. What a bunch of dopes.

http://cdn.yougov.com/downloads/releases/econ/20120114_econTabReport.pdf


Yes I think you are correct..

houghtam
01-24-2012, 01:10 AM
You are verbose, judgmental, and nearly as arrogant as you are ignorant.

That is okay, because you're probably in high school or College (I hope), and you need to go out and explore the world to enrich your perception of it.

The sign of verbosity is taking 100 words to say what you can in 25.

The sign of pedantry is taking 5 syllables to say what you can in 2.

This guy is a double threat.

::)

Drek
01-24-2012, 03:31 AM
Most Americans don't if you take the success of the iPhone as any sort of indicator.
But in America the citizenry have the right to be ignorant, immoral pricks. It is the job of our government to protect our people from being put in the same situation and to protect our jobs from being exported to those exploitative countries.

This is done in America for all of the highest paying and most "esteemed" jobs at the junior level positions.

Ask an I-banking analyst/associate or 2nd year legal associate what their life is like.

The difference is, people who are willing to work like an animal in America get paid 150k+, in China, they get paid a live-able wage, and that's it.

It's not cool when a firm pressures people into things they didn't sign up for by threatening termination,etc., but in a lot of these situations, people know exactly what they signed up for, consented to it, and would do it again if given the choice, because life on a farm is not fun in China/Indonesia/etc.,
The job you described in the U.S. are jobs people opt into for the promise of a very lucrative end game, knowing the consequences full well. Those people also work FAR less hours than the Chinese workers you're trying to draw an analogy between, and there are fewer of those people in this entire country than a single Foxconn compound.

People in China take those jobs because its better than starving. They then proceed to commit suicide directly resultant from the abuse they receive.

Companies like Foxconn (who Apple employs for this) are effectively selling indentured servants. People who have no freedom or quality of life in exchange for one of the few livable wage jobs the massive lower class in China attain.

Your rationalizing of this shows a serious disconnect with the core tenants of what it is to be an American. This country is supposed to be rooted in the belief that God gave all of us free will to do with as we please and as a result it is the job of the government to protect our right to free will first and foremost.

You aren't alone in your delusional world where the rights of individuals are only limited by their impact or lack thereof on the bottom line of their employers. Much of the American government has been co-opted by this sycophantic view, suckling at the tit of their wealthy benefactors. It doesn't make it any less immoral or anti-American.

The quality of life a nation protects for its citizenry is how you grade the quality of a nation.

Like how they used to use the sherman anti-trust act in the US to the same effect?

No, like how they have explicit laws saying the attempted formation of unions or labor parties are illegal and tantamount to treason, with all the associated punishments.

Maybe you don't understand this but China is a communist nation. This belief stems from the time of Confucius when he argued the purpose of our lives was to be a service to the state and nothing more. That we were all disposable assets for the state to expend at it's will. China is, at its core, still ruled by this Confucian philosophy. This philosophy is what allows for companies to find such malleable, cheap labor pools there. The national government has created an economic system where the only viable option is for the masses to take these kinds of jobs.

That philosophy is also distinctly anti-American. It is the polar opposite of why and how this country was founded. The cancer that is eating out the insides of America is the subversion of this belief by capitalism. We are not a capitalist nation, we are a democratic nation which has fostered a capitalist economic model.

Those of you who shriek about federal intrusion into your lives should give this close consideration. It will not stop as long as you allow capitalism to be the guiding star of our political machine. They will subvert our democratic state until it is converted to something more conducive to capitalist ideals, likely a form of corporate feudalism.

The whitewashing of how a country like China takes basic freedoms from their citizens is a step in that direction. The masses are being convinced they don't work hard enough, long enough, or through enough pain. That somehow our problem is that we live in a nation where free time, fair pay, and safe working conditions have made us weak and therefore these are the problems with our system. The real problem is that we conduct open, unregulated business with countries who do not assign the same ethical values to a human life that we do in this country. The problem is with China and our massively de-regulated trade with them, not with the citizenry of the United States.

The greatest crime our government perpetuates against us is that a company like Apple who employs one American worker to every 10 Chinese workers pays almost zero taxes. If a company fails to keep at least 75% of it's workforce in the U.S. it should pay every single cent of the money it owes the federal government for the services it receives. Then we run a sliding scale up to 100% at which point you do actually pay ZERO taxes if you employ entirely U.S. workers.

We should do the same thing with materials and sub-contracting. If a company is buying their materials and resources from within the boarders of the U.S. it gives them a worthwhile percentage bump over cost as a tax deduction.

We can't put the government's sins over the last 30 years of irresponsible and indiscriminate free trade agreements with anti-human rights nations back in Pandora's box. But we can remove the profit and desire to exploit it from the corporations who feed off of it.

alkemical
01-24-2012, 05:47 AM
Well, those people that want that workday that the chinese have - don't worry - your kids will have those jobs. They'll work in company towns. Which, ironically - is the fascist utopia that some here desire.

alkemical
01-24-2012, 05:47 AM
http://www.disinfo.com/2012/01/motion-picture-industry-threatens-politicians/

From the sickening department at Techdirt:

Reinforcing the fact that Chris Dodd really does not get what’s happening, and showing just how disgustingly corrupt the MPAA relationship is with politicians, Chris Dodd went on Fox News to explicitly threaten politicians who accept MPAA campaign donations that they’d better pass Hollywood’s favorite legislation… or else:

“Those who count on quote ‘Hollywood’ for support need to understand that this industry is watching very carefully who’s going to stand up for them when their job is at stake. Don’t ask me to write a check for you when you think your job is at risk and then don’t pay any attention to me when my job is at stake,”


This certainly follows what many people assumed was happening, and fits with the anonymous comments from studio execs that they will stop contributing to Obama, but to be so blatant about this kind of corruption and money-for-laws politics in the face of an extremely angry public is a really, really, really tone deaf response from Dodd.

It shows, yet again, that he just doesn’t get it. People were protesting not just because of the content of these bills, but because of the corrupt process of big industries like Dodd’s “buying” politicians and “buying” laws. To then come out and make that threat explicit isn’t a way to fix things or win back the public. It’s just going to get them more upset, and to recognize just how corrupt this process is. If Dodd, as he said in yesterday’s NY Times, really wanted to turn things around and come to a more reasonable result, this is exactly how not to do it.

It shows, yet again, a DC-insider’s mindset. He used Fox News to try to “send a message” to politicians. But the internet already sent a much louder message… and, even worse for Dodd, he bizarrely sent his message in a way that everyone who’s already fed up with this kind of corruption can see it too. It really makes you wonder what he’s thinking and how someone so incompetent at this could keep his job.

The MPAA doesn’t need a DC insider explicitly demanding the right to buy laws and buy politicians. The MPAA needs a reformer, one who helps guide Hollywood into the opportunities of a new market place. The MPAA needs someone who actually understands the internet, and helps lead the studios forward. That’s apparently not Chris Dodd…

[continues at Techdirt]

http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120120/14472117492/mpaa-directly-publicly-threatens-politicians-who-arent-corrupt-enough-to-stay-bought.shtml

alkemical
01-24-2012, 05:49 AM
http://www.disinfo.com/2012/01/time-to-fight-montana-voters-move-to-recall-senators-who-voted-for-ndaa/

‘Time to Fight’ – Montana Voters Move To Recall Senators Who Voted For NDAA

Jonathan Turley writes:

We have been discussing the disconnect between citizens who have repeatedly opposed continued rollbacks of civil liberties and the Democratic and Republican leadership pushing for such rollbacks, including the recent provision allowing indefinite detention of citizens under the National Defense Authorization Act of 2011 (NDAA). Now Montana citizens have decided to try another approach given the non-responsive attitude of our leaders — they are moving to remove their two Senators from office over their votes in favor of indefinite detention powers.

Montana is one of nine states with recall laws. The other states are Arizona, Colorado, Louisiana, Michigan, Nevada, North Dakota, Oregon, and Wisconsin. Eighteen states have recall laws, but most do not apply to federal officers.

Montana Code 2-16-603, on the grounds of physical or mental lack of fitness, incompetence, violation of oath of office, official misconduct, or conviction of certain felony offenses.

Presumably, they are arguing that voting for an unconstitutional measure that allows for indefinite detention of citizens constitutes both a violation of the oath of office and incompetence…

Source: Daily Kos

[continues at Jonathan Turley's blog]

In the Daily Kos post, Stewart Rhodes, one of the leaders of the movement, is quoted as saying:

Two time Medal of Honor winner Marine General Smedley Butler once said “There are only two things we should fight for. One is the defense of our homes and the other is the Bill of Rights.” Time to fight.

alkemical
01-24-2012, 06:20 AM
http://www.disinfo.com/2012/01/iowa-vote-fraud-official/

Iowa Vote Fraud Official

Posted by Camron Wiltshire on January 23, 2012

Jeffrey Phelps writes for the Denver Conspiracy Examiner:

It’s official, or is it? Once again the establishment is showing it’s cards in an obvious attempt to defraud Ron Paul from the nomination, as Iowa GOP ‘officials’ purposely disrupt and permanently invalidate the 2012 Iowa Caucus.

iac_logo

The official Caucus website, in conjunction with the Des Moines Register, had to come forward Thursday to claim the official results can “never be certified” after 8 different precincts turn up invalid results due to “missing votes” and changing stories.

For the first time in history, the Iowa GOP decided to change the final vote count to a “Secret location” for what was claimed to be “security concerns.” The unprecedented change in venue came as a shock to most Iowans who are used to seeing the final results tallied at State Party Headquarters in Des Moines, in full view of the public.

This time, however, instead of business as usual, all of the final results were to be counted at an undisclosed location, completely hidden from public scrutiny, the seemingly ‘new’ business as usual.

What played out as a result was a mockery of democracy as Iowa election officials permanently skewed the results of the caucus, illegally miscounting and completely dismissing votes for Ron Paul, many of which were ironically from precincts that Romney lost in ’08.

Other missing or “uncounted” votes were expected to be heavy Ron Paul supporting, major populated areas and college town precincts, now leaving the true winner forever in question…

[More from the Denver Conspiracy Examiner]

TonyR
01-24-2012, 06:24 AM
Yes I think you are correct..

So then you're on the record as thinking that Obama is a Muslim? I just want to make sure your position on this is clear for all to see.

Rohirrim
01-24-2012, 07:13 AM
Like how they used to use the sherman anti-trust act in the US to the same effect?

Yeah. That's the same thing. :spit:

Rohirrim
01-24-2012, 07:25 AM
Why would I take anything Sullivan says seriously? The man has come out and readily admitted he's an ardent supporter of Obama. Why would I read anything he has to say when he’s a partisan reporter, like most are in the main stream media? You honestly expect me to believe Sullivan isn’t going to the left when he writes an opinion piece?

You lefties are like a group of lost dogs following a trail of crumbs from men and women in the media who don’t have first freaking clue about what the trend of any voter or group of voters will do. It’s Obama and the Left Wing Congress that will be doomed and will be cleaned out in Nov.

Creeps like Sullivan live in this plastic bubble with all their progressive friends inside the Washington beltway shoveling **** by the hour. Between cocktail parties and lavishes dinners with the Obama administration they find time in their busy days to educated us rubes about how the GOP is doomed. Spare me, they’ve all been dead wrong about the GOP party and what the results would be in the primaries.

But please keep spreading the BS thick amongst yourselves maybe it’ll make you feel better about yourself.

If you actually knew anything about politics (which you prove you don't, every day, by posting) you would realize that Obama is a centrist, and if anything, slightly right of center. Of course, if all you listen to is Rush, or Beck, or Hannity, blah, blah, blah, then Obama is a foaming at the mouth, Kenyan terrorist Marxist who's a cross between Che Guevara and Vladimir Lenin. If you look at policy, he's slightly Right of Richard M. Nixon.

The GOP has been taken over by nutcases, and all the liberal conservatives who used to find a place in the Republican Party (like Sullivan) have been kicked out, replaced by rabid, Right Wing ideologues. If you actually knew anything about politics, you'd know that real progressives, like myself for example, are very disappointed in Obama's rightward tilt since he came into office. Hell, the health care policy that you Right Wingers get all hysterical about, screaming "Obamacare!", as if it was a plague of locusts, was written in the belly of the Heritage Foundation. The original guy who forwarded the policy was friggin Orrin Hatch. Ha!

Rohirrim
01-24-2012, 07:30 AM
But in America the citizenry have the right to be ignorant, immoral pricks. It is the job of our government to protect our people from being put in the same situation and to protect our jobs from being exported to those exploitative countries.


The job you described in the U.S. are jobs people opt into for the promise of a very lucrative end game, knowing the consequences full well. Those people also work FAR less hours than the Chinese workers you're trying to draw an analogy between, and there are fewer of those people in this entire country than a single Foxconn compound.

People in China take those jobs because its better than starving. They then proceed to commit suicide directly resultant from the abuse they receive.

Companies like Foxconn (who Apple employs for this) are effectively selling indentured servants. People who have no freedom or quality of life in exchange for one of the few livable wage jobs the massive lower class in China attain.

Your rationalizing of this shows a serious disconnect with the core tenants of what it is to be an American. This country is supposed to be rooted in the belief that God gave all of us free will to do with as we please and as a result it is the job of the government to protect our right to free will first and foremost.

You aren't alone in your delusional world where the rights of individuals are only limited by their impact or lack thereof on the bottom line of their employers. Much of the American government has been co-opted by this sycophantic view, suckling at the tit of their wealthy benefactors. It doesn't make it any less immoral or anti-American.

The quality of life a nation protects for its citizenry is how you grade the quality of a nation.



No, like how they have explicit laws saying the attempted formation of unions or labor parties are illegal and tantamount to treason, with all the associated punishments.

Maybe you don't understand this but China is a communist nation. This belief stems from the time of Confucius when he argued the purpose of our lives was to be a service to the state and nothing more. That we were all disposable assets for the state to expend at it's will. China is, at its core, still ruled by this Confucian philosophy. This philosophy is what allows for companies to find such malleable, cheap labor pools there. The national government has created an economic system where the only viable option is for the masses to take these kinds of jobs.

That philosophy is also distinctly anti-American. It is the polar opposite of why and how this country was founded. The cancer that is eating out the insides of America is the subversion of this belief by capitalism. We are not a capitalist nation, we are a democratic nation which has fostered a capitalist economic model.

Those of you who shriek about federal intrusion into your lives should give this close consideration. It will not stop as long as you allow capitalism to be the guiding star of our political machine. They will subvert our democratic state until it is converted to something more conducive to capitalist ideals, likely a form of corporate feudalism.

The whitewashing of how a country like China takes basic freedoms from their citizens is a step in that direction. The masses are being convinced they don't work hard enough, long enough, or through enough pain. That somehow our problem is that we live in a nation where free time, fair pay, and safe working conditions have made us weak and therefore these are the problems with our system. The real problem is that we conduct open, unregulated business with countries who do not assign the same ethical values to a human life that we do in this country. The problem is with China and our massively de-regulated trade with them, not with the citizenry of the United States.

The greatest crime our government perpetuates against us is that a company like Apple who employs one American worker to every 10 Chinese workers pays almost zero taxes. If a company fails to keep at least 75% of it's workforce in the U.S. it should pay every single cent of the money it owes the federal government for the services it receives. Then we run a sliding scale up to 100% at which point you do actually pay ZERO taxes if you employ entirely U.S. workers.

We should do the same thing with materials and sub-contracting. If a company is buying their materials and resources from within the boarders of the U.S. it gives them a worthwhile percentage bump over cost as a tax deduction.

We can't put the government's sins over the last 30 years of irresponsible and indiscriminate free trade agreements with anti-human rights nations back in Pandora's box. But we can remove the profit and desire to exploit it from the corporations who feed off of it.

One of the best political posts I've ever seen on here. :notworthy

I wish everybody in America would wake up to this ****.

alkemical
01-24-2012, 07:37 AM
http://www.skilluminati.com/research/entry/newt_gingrich_on_using_language_for_social_control/

Newt Gingrich on Using Language for Social Control


...third time I've said that. (Laughter.) I'll probably say it three more times. See, in my line of work you got to keep repeating things over and over and over again for the truth to sink in, to kind of catapult the propaganda. (Applause.)

--source link

bendog
01-24-2012, 08:36 AM
Yeah. That's the same thing. :spit:

He lost me there. After that, I stopped reading.

bendog
01-24-2012, 09:19 AM
I don't think using "code words" is new. Obama certainly did it in 2008, to Hillary and McCain. He labled them old and tired. And at the same time labled Hillary as just being the wife of Bill. The media helped of course, but his team aimed the gun.

Newt is running a classic Nixon Southern Strategy. He's bashed blacks and welfare recipients.

Romney was trying to be unoffensive to everyone. LOL

Tombstone RJ
01-24-2012, 09:23 AM
But in America the citizenry have the right to be ignorant, immoral pricks. It is the job of our government to protect our people from being put in the same situation and to protect our jobs from being exported to those exploitative countries.


The job you described in the U.S. are jobs people opt into for the promise of a very lucrative end game, knowing the consequences full well. Those people also work FAR less hours than the Chinese workers you're trying to draw an analogy between, and there are fewer of those people in this entire country than a single Foxconn compound.

People in China take those jobs because its better than starving. They then proceed to commit suicide directly resultant from the abuse they receive.

Companies like Foxconn (who Apple employs for this) are effectively selling indentured servants. People who have no freedom or quality of life in exchange for one of the few livable wage jobs the massive lower class in China attain.

Your rationalizing of this shows a serious disconnect with the core tenants of what it is to be an American. This country is supposed to be rooted in the belief that God gave all of us free will to do with as we please and as a result it is the job of the government to protect our right to free will first and foremost.

You aren't alone in your delusional world where the rights of individuals are only limited by their impact or lack thereof on the bottom line of their employers. Much of the American government has been co-opted by this sycophantic view, suckling at the tit of their wealthy benefactors. It doesn't make it any less immoral or anti-American.

The quality of life a nation protects for its citizenry is how you grade the quality of a nation.



No, like how they have explicit laws saying the attempted formation of unions or labor parties are illegal and tantamount to treason, with all the associated punishments.

Maybe you don't understand this but China is a communist nation. This belief stems from the time of Confucius when he argued the purpose of our lives was to be a service to the state and nothing more. That we were all disposable assets for the state to expend at it's will. China is, at its core, still ruled by this Confucian philosophy. This philosophy is what allows for companies to find such malleable, cheap labor pools there. The national government has created an economic system where the only viable option is for the masses to take these kinds of jobs.

That philosophy is also distinctly anti-American. It is the polar opposite of why and how this country was founded. The cancer that is eating out the insides of America is the subversion of this belief by capitalism. We are not a capitalist nation, we are a democratic nation which has fostered a capitalist economic model.

Those of you who shriek about federal intrusion into your lives should give this close consideration. It will not stop as long as you allow capitalism to be the guiding star of our political machine. They will subvert our democratic state until it is converted to something more conducive to capitalist ideals, likely a form of corporate feudalism.

The whitewashing of how a country like China takes basic freedoms from their citizens is a step in that direction. The masses are being convinced they don't work hard enough, long enough, or through enough pain. That somehow our problem is that we live in a nation where free time, fair pay, and safe working conditions have made us weak and therefore these are the problems with our system. The real problem is that we conduct open, unregulated business with countries who do not assign the same ethical values to a human life that we do in this country. The problem is with China and our massively de-regulated trade with them, not with the citizenry of the United States.

The greatest crime our government perpetuates against us is that a company like Apple who employs one American worker to every 10 Chinese workers pays almost zero taxes. If a company fails to keep at least 75% of it's workforce in the U.S. it should pay every single cent of the money it owes the federal government for the services it receives. Then we run a sliding scale up to 100% at which point you do actually pay ZERO taxes if you employ entirely U.S. workers.

We should do the same thing with materials and sub-contracting. If a company is buying their materials and resources from within the boarders of the U.S. it gives them a worthwhile percentage bump over cost as a tax deduction.

We can't put the government's sins over the last 30 years of irresponsible and indiscriminate free trade agreements with anti-human rights nations back in Pandora's box. But we can remove the profit and desire to exploit it from the corporations who feed off of it.

I agree with a lot of this and I think we are arguing the same thing--China does not play by the rules that the USA plays by in its labor practices, nor in it's trade practices, nor in it's monetary practices. For all intents and purposes China has taken the free market economy and morphed it into a state run institution where the old political ideology of the socialistic state--which is the largest labor union available--is now being used to grow their economy for the betterment of the state, and NOT the betterment of the people. The people are the state, and hence they serve one purpose, labor.

What the USA has to do is stop empowering the Chinese state. Period. I've always said that the only thing holding back the Chinese is their own stupid government. But their government is promoting capitalism within their borders not to promote the individual, but to promote the state. It's the ass opposite of how the USA does things. In the USA the individual is promoted through things like education and then encouraged to add to the benefit of society through being a productive--yet free--member of that society. In China the state is promoted through things like cheap labor and the minimalization of the individual in order to benefit the needs of the state. The Chinese governement is allowing just enough freedom to be financially beneficial to the state.

The US has to change the rules with China. We aren't going to beat them via cheap labor. The US has to beat them by our own creative capacity to change the way energy and manufacturing--jobs--are produced.

alkemical
01-24-2012, 09:35 AM
I agree with a lot of this and I think we are arguing the same thing--China does not play by the rules that the USA plays by in its labor practices, nor in it's trade practices, nor in it's monetary practices. For all intents and purposes China has taken the free market economy and morphed it into a state run institution where the old political ideology of the socialistic state--which is the largest labor union available--is now being used to grow their economy for the betterment of the state, and NOT the betterment of the people. The people are the state, and hence they serve one purpose, labor.

What the USA has to do is stop empowering the Chinese state. Period. I've always said that the only thing holding back the Chinese is their own stupid government. But their government is promoting capitalism within their borders not to promote the individual, but to promote the state. It's the ass opposite of how the USA does things. In the USA the individual is promoted through things like education and then encouraged to add to the benefit of society through being a productive--yet free--member of that society. In China the state is promoted through things like cheap labor and the minimalization of the individual in order to benefit the needs of the state. The Chinese governement is allowing just enough freedom to be financially beneficial to the state.

The US has to change the rules with China. We aren't going to beat them via cheap labor. The US has to beat them by our own creative capacity to change the way energy and manufacturing--jobs--are produced.

Are you familiar with the term "golden cage"?

I often feel that that bolded section applies in the USA also.

Willynowei
01-24-2012, 09:36 AM
But in America the citizenry have the right to be ignorant, immoral pricks. It is the job of our government to protect our people from being put in the same situation and to protect our jobs from being exported to those exploitative countries.


The job you described in the U.S. are jobs people opt into for the promise of a very lucrative end game, knowing the consequences full well. Those people also work FAR less hours than the Chinese workers you're trying to draw an analogy between, and there are fewer of those people in this entire country than a single Foxconn compound.

People in China take those jobs because its better than starving. They then proceed to commit suicide directly resultant from the abuse they receive.

Companies like Foxconn (who Apple employs for this) are effectively selling indentured servants. People who have no freedom or quality of life in exchange for one of the few livable wage jobs the massive lower class in China attain.

Your rationalizing of this shows a serious disconnect with the core tenants of what it is to be an American. This country is supposed to be rooted in the belief that God gave all of us free will to do with as we please and as a result it is the job of the government to protect our right to free will first and foremost.

You aren't alone in your delusional world where the rights of individuals are only limited by their impact or lack thereof on the bottom line of their employers. Much of the American government has been co-opted by this sycophantic view, suckling at the tit of their wealthy benefactors. It doesn't make it any less immoral or anti-American.

The quality of life a nation protects for its citizenry is how you grade the quality of a nation.



No, like how they have explicit laws saying the attempted formation of unions or labor parties are illegal and tantamount to treason, with all the associated punishments.

Maybe you don't understand this but China is a communist nation. This belief stems from the time of Confucius when he argued the purpose of our lives was to be a service to the state and nothing more. That we were all disposable assets for the state to expend at it's will. China is, at its core, still ruled by this Confucian philosophy. This philosophy is what allows for companies to find such malleable, cheap labor pools there. The national government has created an economic system where the only viable option is for the masses to take these kinds of jobs.

That philosophy is also distinctly anti-American. It is the polar opposite of why and how this country was founded. The cancer that is eating out the insides of America is the subversion of this belief by capitalism. We are not a capitalist nation, we are a democratic nation which has fostered a capitalist economic model.

Those of you who shriek about federal intrusion into your lives should give this close consideration. It will not stop as long as you allow capitalism to be the guiding star of our political machine. They will subvert our democratic state until it is converted to something more conducive to capitalist ideals, likely a form of corporate feudalism.

The whitewashing of how a country like China takes basic freedoms from their citizens is a step in that direction. The masses are being convinced they don't work hard enough, long enough, or through enough pain. That somehow our problem is that we live in a nation where free time, fair pay, and safe working conditions have made us weak and therefore these are the problems with our system. The real problem is that we conduct open, unregulated business with countries who do not assign the same ethical values to a human life that we do in this country. The problem is with China and our massively de-regulated trade with them, not with the citizenry of the United States.

The greatest crime our government perpetuates against us is that a company like Apple who employs one American worker to every 10 Chinese workers pays almost zero taxes. If a company fails to keep at least 75% of it's workforce in the U.S. it should pay every single cent of the money it owes the federal government for the services it receives. Then we run a sliding scale up to 100% at which point you do actually pay ZERO taxes if you employ entirely U.S. workers.

We should do the same thing with materials and sub-contracting. If a company is buying their materials and resources from within the boarders of the U.S. it gives them a worthwhile percentage bump over cost as a tax deduction.

We can't put the government's sins over the last 30 years of irresponsible and indiscriminate free trade agreements with anti-human rights nations back in Pandora's box. But we can remove the profit and desire to exploit it from the corporations who feed off of it.

My god are you stupid and ill-informed.

1.) Go look at the paraphrasing this country's founding fathers did of the founder of Capitalism.

2.) Confuscianism provides for cheap labor pools? LOL! Holysh*t, go to China, speak with these people, learn a bit about the culture there, why it values education and income, and why the proper gift from uncle to nephew and from father to son is an envelope with cash in it on major holidays; a tradition thats been there long before "white washing" arrived.

3.) They have choice of staying a farmer, they will continue to live and have enough food to get by. What they want in addition to that is the opportunity for their kids to one day obtain the necessary education and business network to become a man of power. That's right, most people have aspirations to end up on top, not everyone's content to just get by, can you believe that?

And btw, thats what Confuscianism is really all about - responsibility of Son to father, the family members to each other, and the willingness of parents to work 12 hours a day for their kids to have an opportunity of being the boss one day.

"Maybe you don't understand this but China's a communist nation" - This conversation ends here and now. Communist nations don't exist, go look up what the political definition of "nation" means. Communist state is the term you are looking for, something China is not. In your post you demonstrate a complete lack of understanding of China through attributions made to their political system, culture, and socio-economic framework.

Your post drips with ignorance. I'm hesitant to spend any more than a post arguing with someone so delusional.

Go to China, learn about the situation there with first hand experience, ask scholars of the Constitution what this country was founded on, educate yourself.

I know a half dozen provincial judges in China and wouldn't be so bold as to make some of the claims you've made about their labor laws. I know well respected economists that wouldn't dare say some of crap you've spewed in your post.

You're the classic armchair quarterback. You haven't a clue what works and doesn't work but you're keen on bold claims.

China's not only the furthest thing from a communist country, its far less socialist than a vast majority of western countries.

There's some perspective for you.

EDIT: oh and as for your proposals on taxing the living **** out of American companies; good one, no ones ever thought of that before, and when all those companies relocate from Delaware to Switzerland, who will you be taxing? ;)

Willynowei
01-24-2012, 09:38 AM
Yeah. That's the same thing. :spit:

different means, same end.

bendog
01-24-2012, 10:19 AM
different means, same end.

you do know that unions were exempted from anti-trust sometime before WWI, right?

Que
01-24-2012, 10:36 AM
Psst... None of those companies are actually in Delaware. They're just incorporated in that state (and NV). Most just have a registered agent there.

Rohirrim
01-24-2012, 10:46 AM
different means, same end.

I'd love to hear the argument for how the Sherman anti-trust act is the same thing as China outlawing unions.

Rohirrim
01-24-2012, 11:00 AM
I agree with a lot of this and I think we are arguing the same thing--China does not play by the rules that the USA plays by in its labor practices, nor in it's trade practices, nor in it's monetary practices. For all intents and purposes China has taken the free market economy and morphed it into a state run institution where the old political ideology of the socialistic state--which is the largest labor union available--is now being used to grow their economy for the betterment of the state, and NOT the betterment of the people. The people are the state, and hence they serve one purpose, labor.

What the USA has to do is stop empowering the Chinese state. Period. I've always said that the only thing holding back the Chinese is their own stupid government. But their government is promoting capitalism within their borders not to promote the individual, but to promote the state. It's the ass opposite of how the USA does things. In the USA the individual is promoted through things like education and then encouraged to add to the benefit of society through being a productive--yet free--member of that society. In China the state is promoted through things like cheap labor and the minimalization of the individual in order to benefit the needs of the state. The Chinese governement is allowing just enough freedom to be financially beneficial to the state.

The US has to change the rules with China. We aren't going to beat them via cheap labor. The US has to beat them by our own creative capacity to change the way energy and manufacturing--jobs--are produced.

There's more than just that going on. We don't even talk about what the loss of our industrial base is doing do us:

China, of course, knows exactly what it’s doing. Running down U.S. industrial capacity by means of predatory trade surpluses is a quintuple play for Beijing: it makes an immediate cash profit, builds up China’s productive abilities for the future, reduces a competitor’s abilities, chokes off our tax revenues, and undermines our military power.

One almost has to admire the sheer elegance of their strategy. Didn’t Sun Tzu say that to subdue an enemy without fighting him was the acme of skill?
http://www.tradereform.org/2011/11/curtains-for-the-u-s-military-industrial-base/

This is what happens to a country that hands over the reins of power to corporations. Policy is based on short-term profit, not long term national self-interests. I'll bet there are times the Chinese leaders just sit back and laugh at us.

Willynowei
01-24-2012, 11:12 AM
I'd love to hear the argument for how the Sherman anti-trust act is the same thing as China outlawing unions.

You lack reading comprehension.

Willynowei
01-24-2012, 11:16 AM
Psst... None of those companies are actually in Delaware. They're just incorporated in that state (and NV). Most just have a registered agent there.

No **** sherlock.

Willynowei
01-24-2012, 11:18 AM
you do know that unions were exempted from anti-trust sometime before WWI, right?

Like how they used to use the sherman anti-trust act in the US to the same effect?

Looks like I spoke in the past tense there.