PDA

View Full Version : Unbelievable_Tebow_Stat_of_the_Week


BroncoBeavis
01-17-2012, 07:50 AM
Tebow's 2011 Season

Passing Attempts while ahead: 27
Passing Attempts while behind: 244

ColoradoDarin
01-17-2012, 07:51 AM
Wow. Just wow.

Eldorado
01-17-2012, 07:52 AM
That stat might actually mean something if you included number of plays while ahead and number of plays while behind.

cutthemdown
01-17-2012, 07:53 AM
Well we were behind all friggin yr so I am not surprised. And we ran the ball a ton this yr so I am not surprised.

Had we tried to be NE, or NO we would have been 2-14 and in the luck draft. Maybe that is what you all really wanted? and now your pissed off?

BroncoBeavis
01-17-2012, 07:54 AM
That stat might actually mean something if you included number of plays while ahead and number of plays while behind.

I don't know. 10 to 1 is pretty bad considering the guy ended with a 7-4 record.

cutthemdown
01-17-2012, 07:59 AM
I don't know. 10 to 1 is pretty bad considering the guy ended with a 7-4 record.

Don't you notice why they only let tebow throw deep?

BroncoBeavis
01-17-2012, 08:01 AM
Don't you notice why they only let tebow throw deep?

That doesn't even made any sense.

cutthemdown
01-17-2012, 08:02 AM
Tebow has to shorten his delivery on the short balls. His windup is ok for long bombs, most qbs bring ball back further on those throws. Maybe Elway didn't have to, Marino, but most do wind up a bit when going for a 50 yrd throw.

But he has to get where he can take the snap under center, do a ball fake, then get ball out for a quick 10 yrd strike etc etc. Right now its just tooooooo sloooooooooow. Sorry but Hoge is right about that. What he is wrong about is that it's not worth trying to fix. People underestimated the big plays Tebow could get with his long throws, that is what saved him.

If he can get better on the short ones, quicker, do better pre snap reads at the LOS, it will make his redzone/option package that much more deadly because the defense won't know what formation is coming.

cutthemdown
01-17-2012, 08:03 AM
That doesn't even made any sense.

Sorry do you notice why? because all people who watch football do.

cutthemdown
01-17-2012, 08:05 AM
The coaching this yr in Denver was one of the best jobs I have ever seen a coaching staff do for Denver. Throw in they had no offseason and a talent poor team. Especially the oline, they got a lot better despite the fact that some of them not really all that physically dominant.

Tebow would have tons of time to throw, and the rbs found room even when they knew we were running.

BroncoBeavis
01-17-2012, 08:08 AM
Sorry do you notice why? because all people who watch football do.

Again, think back to the Buffalo game. 3 of 4 passing in the first half. Broncos end the half down 10. Can't blame Tebow. That was all McCoy scheme leading to a two-score deficit. Then once the McCoy way fails, they expect Timmy to get it all back. He succeeded more often than he failed. But it's a pattern that we saw over and over again throughout the season.

We spotted the other team a couple score lead and then said "Ok Timmy, go fix it for us!"

And then when he did, you give the credit to the guy who put him in that situation.

Eldorado
01-17-2012, 08:18 AM
I don't know. 10 to 1 is pretty bad considering the guy ended with a 7-4 record.

It would mean nothing if the 'total plays behind'/'total plays ahead' were 10/1 as well.

And then you tried to correlate it with overall record. You are terrible at this.

Stop.

Kaylore
01-17-2012, 08:19 AM
Well we were behind all friggin yr so I am not surprised. And we ran the ball a ton this yr so I am not surprised.
This.

BroncoBeavis
01-17-2012, 08:21 AM
Then go look at Cam Newton's situational stats.

If you compare Tebow's and Cam's "Behind" and "Ahead" lines, their QBR is almost identical situationally.

Both Tim's and Cam's QB rating is much higher when they throw while ahead... around 89 and 91 respectively.

When behind both QB's ratings are worse. 77 and 78 respectively.

The difference between the two is that Cam threw roughly as many passes as Tebow while behind (256) but threw ALMOST 6 TIMES more often while ahead (155)

And this is in spite of the fact that Tim finished 7-4 while Cam finished 6-10.

bendog
01-17-2012, 08:23 AM
wE all know Elway ordered Fox not to let Tim pass because he doesn't want Tim to succeed.

BroncoBeavis
01-17-2012, 08:27 AM
What y'all are missing in this stunning number is the most basic point.

Tebow spent 80-90% of his passing time passing in ****ty situations. Then you all want to talk about completion percentages and comparisons to other players without any context.

Eldorado
01-17-2012, 08:32 AM
Then go look at Cam Newton's situational stats.

If you compare Tebow's and Cam's "Behind" and "Ahead" lines, their QBR is almost identical situationally.

Both Tim's and Cam's QB rating is much higher when they throw while ahead... around 89 and 91 respectively.

When behind both QB's ratings are worse. 77 and 78 respectively.

The difference between the two is that Cam threw roughly as many passes as Tebow while behind (256) but threw ALMOST 6 TIMES more often while ahead (155)

And this is in spite of the fact that Tim finished 7-4 while Cam finished 6-10.

This is a statistical analysis abortion. Truly horrific.

BroncoBeavis
01-17-2012, 08:34 AM
This is a statistical analysis abortion. Truly horrific.

Yes, because as any NFL analyst will tell you, it's much easier to pass while behind than while ahead.

Funny you stood by all year while we heard time and time again "But he can't evun compleet 50 percent of his passeses!" :)

Where were all the calls for nuance and contextual stats?

Eldorado
01-17-2012, 08:39 AM
What y'all are missing in this stunning number is the most basic point.

Tebow spent 80-90% of his passing time passing in ****ty situations. Then you all want to talk about completion percentages and comparisons to other players without any context.

See, now if you had actually incorporated % of plays behind or ahead, I would totally be on board. But you have not. We still don't know what % of plays were run while behind or ahead, or what % of those subsets were passing plays. And no fashion have you demonstrated that the majority of passing plays were in 3rd and long, or some such equivalent difficult passing scenario.

BroncoBeavis
01-17-2012, 08:45 AM
See, now if you had actually incorporated % of plays behind or ahead, I would totally be on board. But you have not. We still don't know what % of plays were run while behind or ahead, or what % of those subsets were passing plays. And no fashion have you demonstrated that the majority of passing plays were in 3rd and long, or some such equivalent difficult passing scenario.

Being behind is an inherently difficult passing scenario. Teams defend pass much more heavily when ahead. This isn't that hard.

TheReverend
01-17-2012, 08:50 AM
Tebow's 2011 Season

Passing Attempts while ahead: 27
Passing Attempts while behind: 244

lol sounds about right

Kaylore
01-17-2012, 08:52 AM
You know what is skewing this a bit is the number of times Tebow dropped back and didn't throw because he had no idea what he was seeing.

BroncoBeavis
01-17-2012, 08:54 AM
lol sounds about right

No no, Rev. I've discovered it's meaningless.

The fact that Tebow was virtually never allowed to pass until the other team had been spotted a handicap proves that McCoy was helping Tebow win games.

That One Guy
01-17-2012, 08:56 AM
The coaching this yr in Denver was one of the best jobs I have ever seen a coaching staff do for Denver. Throw in they had no offseason and a talent poor team. Especially the oline, they got a lot better despite the fact that some of them not really all that physically dominant.

Tebow would have tons of time to throw, and the rbs found room even when they knew we were running.

Harbaugh says, " LOL , who needs an offseason?"

KO5K
01-17-2012, 09:00 AM
You know what is skewing this a bit is the number of times Tebow dropped back and didn't throw because he had no idea what he was seeing.

How does that skew it dumbass?

The percentages aren't going to change.

BroncoBeavis
01-17-2012, 09:02 AM
You know what is skewing this a bit is the number of times Tebow dropped back and didn't throw because he had no idea what he was seeing.

Sorry, if you don't have a percentage attached, you can't talk about it.

Can't combine stats and general perceptions... statistical abortion or something like that.

BroncoBeavis
01-17-2012, 09:04 AM
How does that skew it dumbass?

The percentages aren't going to change.

Of course they will. We all know Tebow only had that problem while ahead, thus skewing everything in favor of Mastermind McCoy. :)

Kaylore
01-17-2012, 09:13 AM
How does that skew it dumbass?

The percentages aren't going to change.

It is a very difficult concept to grasp: If you don't attempt to throw, then the total number of attempts will go down. (Sorcery, I know!) Let's say Tebow drops back, stares blankly down field, then is sacked (does not pass) or scrambles. It will be "counted" as a rush. People will say "ZOMG WE NEVER THROA MCCOY SUX0RS!!!!!!11" When we called more pass plays but Tebow didn't throw and that brought the number down.

Hope that helps, buddy! You're my best friend! :)

BroncoBeavis
01-17-2012, 09:15 AM
It is a very difficult concept to grasp: If you don't attempt to throw, then the total number of attempts will go down. (Sorcery, I know!) Let's say Tebow drops back, stares blankly down field, then is sacked (does not pass) or scrambles. It will be "counted" as a rush. People will say "ZOMG WE NEVER THROA MCCOY SUX0RS!!!!!!11" When we called more pass plays but Tebow didn't throw and that brought the number down.

Hope that helps, buddy! You're my best friend! :)

I think his point was that it's fairly likely that it happened roughly equally on either side of the equation so would not be significant.

Kaylore
01-17-2012, 09:21 AM
I think his point was that it's fairly likely that it happened roughly equally on either side of the equation so would not be significant.

If they're winning, Tebow is going to be way more cautious and keep the ball. When we're losing and need a play he is WAYYYYYY more likely to throw it, even into coverage. I think most of his ints have been in losing efforts in desperation.

Eldorado
01-17-2012, 09:22 AM
lol sounds about right

% pass att/Total plays run winning 1-7
32%

% pass att/Total plays run winning 15-21
19%

% pass att/Total plays run losing 1-7
45%

% pass att/Total plays run losing 15-21
58%

BroncoBeavis
01-17-2012, 09:31 AM
If they're winning, Tebow is going to be way more cautious and keep the ball. When we're losing and need a play he is WAYYYYYY more likely to throw it, even into coverage. I think most of his ints have been in losing efforts in desperation.

There could be a hint of that, but it wouldn't be significant in terms of the overall numbers. Add 10 or 20 attempts, which is optimistic. Doesn't change the central point.

Shotgun Willie
01-17-2012, 09:31 AM
% pass att/Total plays run winning 1-7
32%

% pass att/Total plays run winning 15-21
19%

% pass att/Total plays run losing 1-7
45%

% pass att/Total plays run losing 15-21
58%

I'd say these percentages are probably not far off from most teams in the league. With the obvious exception of a few of the more pass-happy teams like the Pats, Saints and Packer.

BroncoBeavis
01-17-2012, 09:33 AM
% pass att/Total plays run winning 1-7
32%

% pass att/Total plays run winning 15-21
19%

% pass att/Total plays run losing 1-7
45%

% pass att/Total plays run losing 15-21
58%

You'd probably call a jump from 30/70 to 50/50 insignificant I'm guessing. But it's all window dressing around the main point.

Throwing when behind is harder. Go look at the situational stats for any QB in the league. None look as good statistically throwing when behind as when ahead.

Inkana7
01-17-2012, 09:38 AM
Hey guise did u no teams pass more when behind? This foot ball thing sure is strange!

TheReverend
01-17-2012, 09:39 AM
% pass att/Total plays run winning 1-7
32%

Says enough for me.

Eldorado
01-17-2012, 09:40 AM
You'd probably call a jump from 30/70 to 50/50 insignificant I'm guessing. But it's all window dressing around the main point.

Throwing when behind is harder. Go look at the situational stats for any QB in the league. None look as good statistically throwing when behind as when ahead.

No, I agree. The 32% when ahead 1-7 is low and needs to come up.

My point is your OP of 27 to 244 is an exaggeration used to support a theory that is actually not as bad as you would have us believe.

BroncoBen
01-17-2012, 09:42 AM
If they're winning, Tebow is going to be way more cautious and keep the ball. When we're losing and need a play he is WAYYYYYY more likely to throw it, even into coverage. I think most of his ints have been in losing efforts in desperation.

This is a John Fox offense... run the ball on the first two downs, pass the ball on 3rd down if more than 3-5 yards.

The deep ball is a pass Tebow likes and can complete, plus you figure a INT deep is just as good as a punt, which the Broncos were going to do anyways if they can't convert a 3rd down.

Blart
01-17-2012, 09:43 AM
That stat might actually mean something if you included number of plays while ahead and number of plays while behind.

^ smart

Eldorado
01-17-2012, 09:46 AM
^ smart

See post 31.

Sometime you gotta do everything yourself.

TheReverend
01-17-2012, 09:46 AM
% pass att/Total plays run winning 1-7
32%

% pass att/Total plays run winning 15-21
19%

% pass att/Total plays run losing 1-7
45%

% pass att/Total plays run losing 15-21
58%

Where'd you get this stat anyway, bud?

Jekyll15Hyde
01-17-2012, 09:47 AM
No, I agree. The 32% when ahead 1-7 is low and needs to come up.

My point is your OP of 27 to 244 is an exaggeration used to support a theory that is actually not as bad as you would have us believe.

The fact that it took this long in the thread is sad.

BroncoBeavis
01-17-2012, 09:49 AM
No, I agree. The 32% when ahead 1-7 is low and needs to come up.

My point is your OP of 27 to 244 is an exaggeration used to support a theory that is actually not as bad as you would have us believe.

It depends on what you define as the theory. Go reread what I said. I stated clearly from the beginning that the theory was that having the vast majority of your passing attempts be while your team is behind makes your passing life harder, and things like completion percentage are skewed because you're only gathering those stats under more adverse conditions than most everyone else.

"Well, we were behind A LOT more than we were ahead" does nothing to address that.

And that's not even getting into the 1st down stuff.

snowspot66
01-17-2012, 09:50 AM
*edit* rechecking math forgot to remove plays for running backs in the first few games

Eldorado
01-17-2012, 09:50 AM
Where'd you get this stat anyway, bud?

Split stats. Summed the total pass attempts and rushes for each split. Reported the quotient of the total plays run for the split into pass attempt for each split.

Repeating, of course. (nerd joke)

Flex Gunmetal
01-17-2012, 09:53 AM
How does that skew it dumbass?

The percentages aren't going to change.

urineidiot

TheReverend
01-17-2012, 09:55 AM
Split stats. Summed the total pass attempts and rushes for each split. Reported the quotient of the total plays run for the split into pass attempt for each split.

Repeating, of course. (nerd joke)

Repped for nerd joke.

Where are you getting your situational stats from? NFL.com uses 1-8 and 9-16 so not there.

Willing to show your work?

Eldorado
01-17-2012, 09:57 AM
Repped for nerd joke.

Where are you getting your situational stats from? NFL.com uses 1-8 and 9-16 so not there.

Willing to show your work?

http://espn.go.com/nfl/team/splits/_/name/den/denver-broncos

TheReverend
01-17-2012, 10:00 AM
http://espn.go.com/nfl/team/splits/_/name/den/denver-broncos

So your "work" includes Orton's #s...?

Kaylore
01-17-2012, 10:01 AM
You know what is skewing this a bit is the number of times Tebow dropped back and didn't throw because he had no idea what he was seeing.

Quoting myself so people can learn to read.

Eldorado
01-17-2012, 10:03 AM
So your "work" includes Orton's #s...?

Good point. I would assume this would skew the numbers high. No matter what, that 32% with a slim lead needs to go up.

BroncoBeavis
01-17-2012, 10:06 AM
So your "work" includes Orton's #s...?

Yeah, I think it would have to. Did his behind 1-7 calculation and it came out to 32%. But that was including Orton's 5 games.

So I think we might be able to demand a recount.

Eldorado
01-17-2012, 10:07 AM
Yeah, I think it would have to. Did his behind 1-7 calculation and it came out to 32%. But that was including Orton's 5 games.

So I think we might be able to demand a recount.

Absolutely. I'll look into it later and see what I can come up with.

BroncoBeavis
01-17-2012, 10:08 AM
Absolutely. I'll look into it later and see what I can come up with.

Snowspot had some numbers up there for a few minutes where he had a count of plays under Tebow. Looks like he's reworking them again.

That One Guy
01-17-2012, 10:10 AM
LOL

Good concept with a stat based thread but this one probably needs blown up and started over. Lay out all the stats, don't be selective, and get an objective result.

BroncoBeavis
01-17-2012, 10:12 AM
But like I was saying, if the name of the game is giving Tebow a fair shake statistically... the fact that he's always throwing from behind doesn't help him.

mwill07
01-17-2012, 10:17 AM
How come no one posted split stats for when game is tied: 0-0, for example.

OK, I'll do it.

18-43 (41.9%) 182 yards, 0 TD, 1 Int. QB rating = 44.9.

34 rushes, 133 yards (3.9 ypc), 3 TD.

Maybe this is why we were frequently behind?

TheReverend
01-17-2012, 10:17 AM
% pass att/Total plays run winning 1-7
32%

% pass att/Total plays run winning 15-21
19%

% pass att/Total plays run losing 1-7
45%

% pass att/Total plays run losing 15-21
58%

^ Noting that these #s are skewed higher by Orton's games, let's try and find some decent comparisons.

A young team, that also plays "small-ball" with a strong defense and to protect a young QB: Bengals

% pass att/Total plays run winning 1-7
41%

% pass att/Total plays run winning 15-21
51%

% pass att/Total plays run losing 1-7
59%

% pass att/Total plays run losing 15-21
63%

Dramatic difference...

But maybe that's skewed. What about the best pure rushing attack in the NFL? Texans:

% pass att/Total plays run winning 1-7
45%

% pass att/Total plays run winning 15-21
37%

% pass att/Total plays run losing 1-7
62%

% pass att/Total plays run losing 15-21
60%



Conclusion:

Sorry folks. Make all the snide "teams pass the ball more when they're behind" comments you want, the OP was absolutely correct.

TheReverend
01-17-2012, 10:21 AM
Absolutely. I'll look into it later and see what I can come up with.

Unfortunately there's no easy way to yank Kyle's numbers since he threw passes for KC (otherwise could've just factored his splits in across the board and gotten the #). You'll have to go play for play to do it. More work than I'm willing to do just to get an accurate % that we're already pretty close to and these tell a damning enough story.

mwill07
01-17-2012, 10:24 AM
Unfortunately there's no easy way to yank Kyle's numbers since he threw passes for KC (otherwise could've just factored his splits in across the board and gotten the #). You'll have to go play for play to do it. More work than I'm willing to do just to get an accurate % that we're already pretty close to and these tell a damning enough story.

You know that espn has split stats for individual players, right? Just go to the Tebow stat page and click on 'splits'.

snowspot66
01-17-2012, 10:30 AM
Ok, reposting after I double checked the numbers here and accounted for Tebow not playing the first 4.5 games. Even after taking this into account the numbers changed very little.

Did a little digging. Assuming my math is correct since I had to piece it together as no website just gives all of this information away in a nice stat line.

We ran approximately 831 plays with Tebow.

We had the lead 17.6% of the plays, were behind 61.8% of the plays, and tied the other 20.4%.

In all of those plays 38.6% were pass plays.

Only 8.4% of passes were with the lead, 76.6% were when trailing, and the 14.9% remaining were when tied.

As for our run game we ran 23.5% of running plays with the lead, 52.5% of our runs were while trailing, and the other 23.9% were in a tie ballgame.

Seams to me like the OP's complaint has some merit. You would expect to have more throws when behind but if we had a more reasonably balanced offense (even 40/60 would be balanced compared to us this year) it would not be so skewed while with a lead or in a tie game.

He wasn't given the opportunity to throw with the lead or in a tie game nearly as often as when trailing. Khan does have a good point that Tebow keeping the ball instead of throwing it will impact the numbers but I think they are sufficiently large enough deficits that argument would still remain valid.

That said, is anybody even shocked by those numbers? We all watched the games and this pretty much fits what we did on offense. Tebow clearly needs time in the offense and with his receivers (and better talent around him) but this is just one more set of numbers that puts a wet blanket on anybody arguing that his accuracy is the lone reason for his low completion percentage.

TheReverend
01-17-2012, 10:30 AM
You know that espn has split stats for individual players, right? Just go to the Tebow stat page and click on 'splits'.

I do. But then you know that it skews the total rushing situational #s, right?

Bronco Rob
01-17-2012, 10:52 AM
Eric Decker (16.98%) and Demaryius Thomas (13.51%) had the 84th and 77th-worst drop rates in the NFL last season. Says a little something i think




;)

Kaylore
01-17-2012, 11:24 AM
When you factor in how crappy our passing offense is, I don't really question that we ran more than we passed. We hardly should have thrown more just to develop Tebow when we were in a playoff hunt, had receivers that had trouble getting open and hanging onto the ball, had linemen that sucked at pass blocking most of the year, and a QB that had trouble seeing the field and making the throws when he did.

I'm pretty luke-warm on McCoy as a play caller. I find him too predictable and not quite as creative as I like. However I don't fault him for not throwing more when you consider what we brought to the table in that regard.

Number 1 rushing offense or number 32 passing offense? Which would you use more?

RunSilentRunDeep
01-17-2012, 11:55 AM
Great thread.

While I believe Tebow is a worthwhile experiment, I also know he has miles to go as a passer.

THAT SAID, for all the talking head tools that dismiss him by reading the box score, consider what Tebow was asked to do:

Drew Brees threw a puss-like 67% of his passes (438 of 650 total attempts) less than 10 yards or behind the line of scrimmage. He also enjoyed 11 games in a dome, a top 3 set of weapons and 60% of the offensive line in the Pro Bowl. It's worth noting Brees played his sixth consecutive year in the same system for one of the best offensive minds in football.

In case you're wondering about other great QBs living the dream, Tom Brady was also a 67% dinker and Aaron Rodgers was 63%.

Tebow threw just 47% of his passes 10 yards or less.

When you consider he was consistently tasked with harder throws (yes, I agree he didn't pull the trigger on a lot of short ones, but I doubt that comes close to covering the difference), has yet to go through a training camp as a starter, saw Brandon Lloyd traded before his first start, lost the only running back that could catch, played with the most inexperienced set of receivers in the league, was protected by the 27th most experienced line in the NFL, and suffered the highest drop percentage on catchable balls in an offense that was heavily modified on the fly by a first-year coordinator -- what the heck was everyone expecting?

TheReverend
01-17-2012, 11:56 AM
Number 1 rushing offense or number 32 passing offense? Which would you use more?

Even posting this is intellectually dishonest :/

When you factor in how crappy our passing offense is, I don't really question that we ran more than we passed. We hardly should have thrown more just to develop Tebow when we were in a playoff hunt, had receivers that had trouble getting open and hanging onto the ball, had linemen that sucked at pass blocking most of the year, and a QB that had trouble seeing the field and making the throws when he did.

I'm pretty luke-warm on McCoy as a play caller. I find him too predictable and not quite as creative as I like. However I don't fault him for not throwing more when you consider what we brought to the table in that regard.

We ran to put ourselves into a 4th quarter hole.

When we threw, we won. End of story.

GreatBronco16
01-17-2012, 12:05 PM
Number 1 rushing offense or number 32 passing offense? Which would you use more?

I'd go with whatever was putting points up on the board. Sadly, our running wasn't doing that.

BroncoBeavis
01-17-2012, 12:10 PM
We ran to put ourselves into a 4th quarter hole.

When we threw, we won. End of story.

That's the long and short of it.

Eldorado
01-17-2012, 12:18 PM
When you factor in how crappy our passing offense is, I don't really question that we ran more than we passed. We hardly should have thrown more just to develop Tebow when we were in a playoff hunt, had receivers that had trouble getting open and hanging onto the ball, had linemen that sucked at pass blocking most of the year, and a QB that had trouble seeing the field and making the throws when he did.

I'm pretty luke-warm on McCoy as a play caller. I find him too predictable and not quite as creative as I like. However I don't fault him for not throwing more when you consider what we brought to the table in that regard.

Number 1 rushing offense or number 32 passing offense? Which would you use more?

We are 9th in average.

Eldorado
01-17-2012, 12:19 PM
How come no one posted split stats for when game is tied: 0-0, for example.

OK, I'll do it.

18-43 (41.9%) 182 yards, 0 TD, 1 Int. QB rating = 44.9.

34 rushes, 133 yards (3.9 ypc), 3 TD.

Maybe this is why we were frequently behind?

repped for investigating a pertinent point. Where did you get your numbers from?

ZONA
01-17-2012, 12:21 PM
Well we were behind all friggin yr so I am not surprised. And we ran the ball a ton this yr so I am not surprised.

Had we tried to be NE, or NO we would have been 2-14 and in the luck draft. Maybe that is what you all really wanted? and now your pissed off?

I'll take that AFC West banner anytime and getting to the playoffs at least gives you that chance to win the Superbowl. We've seen other teams have high picks years and years and years in a row and they continue to suck. Drafting high is nice and your bound to wind up with some nice players but make no mistake, the draft is all about finding players all through every round of the draft that can make your team and help you win. It's simply not enough to land that one good player and the rest of the picks are busts. You have to hit on at least a few guys each year. I would say if you end up with your 1st pick being a big time player (such as we did with Miller) and then 2 of your other picks end up starting within 2 years, that's a great draft. You simply won't hit on more then 2 or 3 really good players in 1 draft.

BabyTO
01-17-2012, 12:24 PM
one more reason to get rid of mccoy that asswipe. our offense was so one dimensional and vanilla everybody figured it out after the first snap

mwill07
01-17-2012, 12:36 PM
repped for investigating a pertinent point. Where did you get your numbers from?

link (http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/splits/_/id/13200/tim-tebow)

errand
01-17-2012, 12:38 PM
Amazing...Tebow throwing when behind means he was put in situations detrimental to his completion %....but last 2 years throwing while behind was how Orton padded his fluff stats and increased his completion % as teams played nothing but prevent.

Got it......

KO5K
01-17-2012, 12:41 PM
Amazing...Tebow throwing when behind means he was put in situations detrimental to his completion %....but last 2 years throwing while behind was how Orton padded his fluff stats and increased his completion % as teams played nothing but prevent.

Got it......

Christ, you are an idiot. An absolute idiot.

ColoradoDarin
01-17-2012, 12:45 PM
Only 8.4% of passes were with the lead, 76.6% were when trailing, and the 14.9% remaining were when tied.


Cut a lot out but I wanted to highlight this.


Also, repped for digging the stats.

Eldorado
01-17-2012, 12:50 PM
link (http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/splits/_/id/13200/tim-tebow)

hmm. I think you were looking at post season? What I saw was 78 pass attempts to 744 plays run. or 11%

*Orton's stats included.

BroncoBeavis
01-17-2012, 12:54 PM
Christ, you are an idiot. An absolute idiot.

It's part of Errand's thing. Whether Orton is allowed as part of any comparison is purely up to him. Only he's allowed to make or approve Orton comparisons. :)

Bronco Yoda
01-17-2012, 12:59 PM
What y'all are missing in this stunning number is the most basic point.

Tebow spent 80-90% of his passing time passing in ****ty situations. Then you all want to talk about completion percentages and comparisons to other players without any context.

I agree with your overall premise.

mwill07
01-17-2012, 12:59 PM
hmm. I think you were looking at post season? What I saw was 78 pass attempts to 744 plays run. or 11%

*Orton's stats included.

???
Tebow split stats for 2011 season...scroll down to "BY PT DIFF"

BY PT DIFF CMP ATT YDS CMP% AVG LNG TD INT SACK RAT ATT YDS AVG LNG TD
WHEN WINNING 6 15 104 40.0 6.93 56 1 0 1 86.5 16 98 6.1 28 0
WHEN TRAILING 102 213 1,443 47.9 6.78 47 11 5 24 77.7 72 429 6.0 32 3
WHEN TIED 18 43 182 41.9 4.23 28 0 1 8 44.9 34 133 3.9 16 3

Shotgun Willie
01-17-2012, 01:04 PM
When we threw, we won. End of story.

In the five games where Tebow threw the most times, we lost three of them.

Eldorado
01-17-2012, 01:05 PM
Duh. I was looking at the team.

TheReverend
01-17-2012, 01:22 PM
In the five games where Tebow threw the most times, we lost three of them.

Oh totally and that had nothing to do with the quality of opponent in Detroit and New England did it?

Shotgun Willie
01-17-2012, 01:26 PM
Oh totally and that had nothing to do with the quality of opponent in Detroit and New England did it?

Well, you did state, "When we threw, we won. End of story."

not

"When we threw against crappy teams, we won. End of story."

Dedhed
01-17-2012, 01:35 PM
What y'all are missing in this stunning number is the most basic point.

Tebow spent 80-90% of his passing time passing in ****ty situations. Then you all want to talk about completion percentages and comparisons to other players without any context.
Yeah, this.

Dedhed
01-17-2012, 01:36 PM
Oh totally and that had nothing to do with the quality of opponent in Detroit and New England did it?

Or the fact that we got behind almost from the opening kickoff.

TheReverend
01-17-2012, 01:38 PM
Well, you did state, "When we threw, we won. End of story."

not

"When we threw against crappy teams, we won. End of story."

..."crappy teams"? Gtfo

Shotgun Willie
01-17-2012, 01:41 PM
..."crappy teams"? Gtfo

Well, what do you call the teams we beat this year? Pittsburgh was the only team with a winning record that Tebow beat all season long.

TheReverend
01-17-2012, 01:45 PM
Well, what do you call the teams we beat this year? Pittsburgh was the only team with a winning record that Tebow beat all season long.

The only winning record teams he even faced were Pitt, Det, NE. That's conveniently excluding the plethora of good teams like SD, NYJ, Oak, Chicago, etc

Dedhed
01-17-2012, 01:45 PM
Well, what do you call the teams we beat this year? Pittsburgh was the only team with a winning record that Tebow beat all season long.
I thought it was a team thing, or is that only when you're deflecting credit?

cutthemdown
01-17-2012, 01:48 PM
The Broncos had a good yr. Really the big questions were can Doom return to his pass rushing form, can the one really high first round pick we have had in quite some time be an all pro type, best in the nfl, can new staff just get Broncos playing better football, is Elway going to be any good at his job and obviously some other stuff also. But really you can't expect a 4-12 team that lacks talent, an established QB, had a new RB, new coaches, no offseason to get that much better.

I'm pretty happy with how the yr went. It was the type of yr you can build on. While really rest of the division sort of had throw away yrs.

Shotgun Willie
01-17-2012, 01:50 PM
I thought it was a team thing, or is that only when you're deflecting credit?

Ummmm, all my posts are in DIRECT response to this post:

"When we threw, we won. End of story."

Now unless the entire team all of a sudden becomes the QB on some rotational basis, then I think it's appropriate to reference and say "Tebow" here instead of "Broncos". Do you disagree?

cutthemdown
01-17-2012, 01:51 PM
Oh and also I feel the Broncos became a team again this yr. Since Darrents murder quite honestly they haven't seemed close, to like each other, to be a team that loves one another. They seem like that to me now. I think that means they work harder together in offseason, are excited to go to work and see all their friends and coaches they enjoy working with.

Things like that are way undervalued in the fans eyes but people who have ever been part of a team know how important it is.

BroncoBeavis
01-17-2012, 02:00 PM
The only winning record teams he even faced were Pitt, Det, NE. That's conveniently excluding the plethora of good teams like SD, NYJ, Oak, Chicago, etc

Or how about, since Kyle comparisons are back on the table, we look at Orton Broncos and Tebow Broncos common opponents.

Tebow 2-0
Orton 0-2. :)

Jetmeck
01-17-2012, 04:08 PM
It is a very difficult concept to grasp: If you don't attempt to throw, then the total number of attempts will go down. (Sorcery, I know!) Let's say Tebow drops back, stares blankly down field, then is sacked (does not pass) or scrambles. It will be "counted" as a rush. People will say "ZOMG WE NEVER THROA MCCOY SUX0RS!!!!!!11" When we called more pass plays but Tebow didn't throw and that brought the number down.

Hope that helps, buddy! You're my best friend! :)


Again how can someone who talks football so much know so little !

Did anybody see how wide open NE's receivers were ?

Did anybody notice ours rarely get open ?

Hell no but lets blame the QB.

oubronco
01-17-2012, 04:28 PM
Tebow has to shorten his delivery on the short balls. His windup is ok for long bombs, most qbs bring ball back further on those throws. Maybe Elway didn't have to, Marino, but most do wind up a bit when going for a 50 yrd throw.

But he has to get where he can take the snap under center, do a ball fake, then get ball out for a quick 10 yrd strike etc etc. Right now its just tooooooo sloooooooooow. Sorry but Hoge is right about that. What he is wrong about is that it's not worth trying to fix. People underestimated the big plays Tebow could get with his long throws, that is what saved him.

If he can get better on the short ones, quicker, do better pre snap reads at the LOS, it will make his redzone/option package that much more deadly because the defense won't know what formation is coming.

Yes and read defenses so he knows where the hot read is and go thru progressions

Bob's your Information Minister
01-17-2012, 04:34 PM
You tend to trail in games WHEN YOU CAN'T ****ING SCORE

MacGruder
01-17-2012, 04:54 PM
You tend to trail in games WHEN YOU CAN'T ****ING SCORE

You can't score when your line is garbage.. Orton couldn't pass inthe Brconos offense either and he had lloyd.

People should be talking about getting a new oline coach or head coach not a anew QB..

The reason the people don't blame the oline is because Tebow's running ability made the Oline look much better than it is AT TIMES. But Tebow still had no confidence in the pocket because defenses were slowing the pass rush on purpose.

If the Broncos get a new QB he is going to go through the same thing then who will people blame?

Mile High Mojoe
01-17-2012, 04:55 PM
Great thread.

While I believe Tebow is a worthwhile experiment, I also know he has miles to go as a passer.

THAT SAID, for all the talking head tools that dismiss him by reading the box score, consider what Tebow was asked to do:

Drew Brees threw a puss-like 67% of his passes (438 of 650 total attempts) less than 10 yards or behind the line of scrimmage. He also enjoyed 11 games in a dome, a top 3 set of weapons and 60% of the offensive line in the Pro Bowl. It's worth noting Brees played his sixth consecutive year in the same system for one of the best offensive minds in football.

In case you're wondering about other great QBs living the dream, Tom Brady was also a 67% dinker and Aaron Rodgers was 63%.

Tebow threw just 47% of his passes 10 yards or less.

When you consider he was consistently tasked with harder throws (yes, I agree he didn't pull the trigger on a lot of short ones, but I doubt that comes close to covering the difference), has yet to go through a training camp as a starter, saw Brandon Lloyd traded before his first start, lost the only running back that could catch, played with the most inexperienced set of receivers in the league, was protected by the 27th most experienced line in the NFL, and suffered the highest drop percentage on catchable balls in an offense that was heavily modified on the fly by a first-year coordinator -- what the heck was everyone expecting?

This… and guys this is a great thread. I think the way you some it up here is perfect. Stats can measure some things but not others. At any rate he needs to improve, just as the WR's do, just as the OL must do etc. I really believe when he comes out of the next training camp we're going to see improved play in all areas. Just try to be patient guys.

He’s only played 16 games, Elway didn’t play much better in his first 16, and we got a playoff win against the best D in the AFC with Tebow’s 15th. Granted, it was just one game but Tebow proved he is capable of getting the ball down field. Maybe I’m one of the few who believe this but I think Tebow is bound for greatness, it may build slowly but it will happen.

BroncoBeavis
01-17-2012, 05:02 PM
Yes and read defenses so he knows where the hot read is and go thru progressions

Yeah like this

DT... covered.

Decker... covered.

Crap. Maybe DT's open now. Nope. Decker? Nope. DT please?!?! Sack.

TonyR
01-17-2012, 05:30 PM
"He's going to have to overhaul everything," says quarterbacks guru George Whitfield, who tutored Newton, Ben Roethlisberger and Terrelle Pryor as they transitioned into the NFL. "He's going to have to go all the way back to the beginning. His throwing motion is a direct relation to what's happening below the waist. You can't put a giant machine gun on a camera tripod. He's going to have to work on the passing and the mechanics. Out of those nine or 10 completions against Pittsburgh, all but two of them were vertical throws. Pretty much everybody can throw it vertical. The challenge is throwing into windows."
http://espn.go.com/espn/commentary/story/_/page/hill-120117/tim-tebow-secure-future-denver-broncos-productive-offseason

Skip Bayless on the subject:
http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=espn:7470505

mwill07
01-17-2012, 06:12 PM
You can't score when your line is garbage.. Orton couldn't pass inthe Brconos offense either and he had lloyd.

People should be talking about getting a new oline coach or head coach not a anew QB..

The reason the people don't blame the oline is because Tebow's running ability made the Oline look much better than it is AT TIMES. But Tebow still had no confidence in the pocket because defenses were slowing the pass rush on purpose.

If the Broncos get a new QB he is going to go through the same thing then who will people blame?

2.9 seconds.

That's how long an NFL line should be expected to hold. Outside of the NE game, our line held for that, easy. Problem was, it took Tebow 5+ sec to throw the ball lots of times...KC game and Buf game in particular.

errand
01-17-2012, 06:20 PM
I thought it was a team thing, or is that only when you're deflecting credit?

You should talk...your clown posse claimed Tebow was the reason we won 7 of his 12 starts....Nobody else had a thing to do with it according to you guys. his coaching sucked...OL sucked...RB's and WR's sucked...D sucked...hell Prater had to kick 2 Fg's from over 50 yards just to get an atta boy from any of your clowns

MacGruder
01-17-2012, 06:24 PM
2.9 seconds.

That's how long an NFL line should be expected to hold. Outside of the NE game, our line held for that, easy. Problem was, it took Tebow 5+ sec to throw the ball lots of times...KC game and Buf game in particular.

You need to rewatch the Pats game then tell me the line held.

As I said.. teams intentionally held Tebow in the pocket because of his running ability. But they could still penetrate at will which prevented Tebow from getting any rhythm or comfort in the pocket.

Also.. the Broncos ran the ball 2 out of every 3 downs and often asked Tebow to pass when he was put in a hole by the run game.

You better make sure you understand what you are looking at... or you are going to screw yourself..

mwill07
01-17-2012, 06:43 PM
You need to rewatch the Pats game then tell me the line held.

As I said.. teams intentionally held Tebow in the pocket because of his running ability. But they could still penetrate at will which prevented Tebow from getting any rhythm or comfort in the pocket.

Also.. the Broncos ran the ball 2 out of every 3 downs and often asked Tebow to pass when he was put in a hole by the run game.

You better make sure you understand what you are looking at... or you are going to screw yourself..

Did I not exclude the NE game above?

Yes, teams held him in the pocket. He needs to be able to get the ball out of the pocket. 2.9 seconds is the expectation for that to happen.

Count it out in your head...1 mississsippi. 2 mississippi. 3 mississippi, bam, ball should be out. It shouldn't be 3 mississippi, turn around, run around, stiff arm someone, run the other way, look for a block, bam, ball comes out.

Bob's your Information Minister
01-17-2012, 06:50 PM
Denver's line isn't garbage. I lost count of how many times Tebow held the ball and held the ball and held the ball and ran around eventually because he can't read a defense for ****.

MacGruder
01-17-2012, 06:54 PM
Again.. you are ignoring context.

They would run the ball all game put him in a 2 TD hole then expect him to dig them out..

That is recipe for disaster.

Many times Fox would only run 2 receiver sets as well. So TT had time in the pocket but no receivers to throw to. And Fox would only want him to throw deep so if there was an INT then it would essentially be a punt.

Most the time Fox was only interested in using the offense in such away as to protect the defense. It was a gimmick and sacrificed offense for defense.

MacGruder
01-17-2012, 06:55 PM
Denver's line isn't garbage. I lost count of how many times Tebow held the ball and held the ball and held the ball and ran around eventually because he can't read a defense for ****.

So then why was Orton terrible behind the same Oline and run game? The run game was terrible with Orton and not with Tebow. How do you have a run game operate so well of defenses don't respect the passing game?

mwill07
01-17-2012, 07:18 PM
Again.. you are ignoring context.

They would run the ball all game put him in a 2 TD hole then expect him to dig them out..

That is recipe for disaster.

Many times Fox would only run 2 receiver sets as well. So TT had time in the pocket but no receivers to throw to. And Fox would only want him to throw deep so if there was an INT then it would essentially be a punt.

Most the time Fox was only interested in using the offense in such away as to protect the defense. It was a gimmick and sacrificed offense for defense.

Was Elway ignoring context when he said that Tebow must "pull the trigger"?

mwill07
01-17-2012, 07:19 PM
So then why was Orton terrible behind the same Oline and run game? The run game was terrible with Orton and not with Tebow. How do you have a run game operate so well of defenses don't respect the passing game?
Maybe Orton was terrible, regardless of the line?

errand
01-17-2012, 08:02 PM
McGahee with Orton 76 ypg avg.

McGahee with Tebow 81 ypg avg.

epicSocialism4tw
01-17-2012, 08:12 PM
Tebow's 2011 Season

Passing Attempts while ahead: 27
Passing Attempts while behind: 244

That's pretty startling.

I had no idea the team was that unbalanced.

epicSocialism4tw
01-17-2012, 08:14 PM
You should talk...your clown posse claimed Tebow was the reason we won 7 of his 12 starts....Nobody else had a thing to do with it according to you guys. his coaching sucked...OL sucked...RB's and WR's sucked...D sucked...hell Prater had to kick 2 Fg's from over 50 yards just to get an atta boy from any of your clowns

Dude.

Just give it up.

Tebow is going to be starting here next year no matter what you say.

Do you really want to waste yours and everyone's time just beating that dead horse into a powder?

Move on already.

BroncoBeavis
01-17-2012, 08:16 PM
McGahee with Orton 76 ypg avg.

McGahee with Tebow 81 ypg avg.

This is that same crap someone pulled before. Counting games where Willis was hurt and only carried a few times. Then giving KO all the McGahee yards for the SD game and of course Tebow none of them.

We had this discussion and worked it all out already. McGahee put up about .5 ypc more under Tebow than Orton. That's the only way it can be fairly measured. Not mind-blowing, but not insignificant.

Average it out over the season and it probably amounts to what would have been 125 extra yards (based on his 250 carries on the year)

But the real reason the Broncos became #1 running the ball was obviously because of Tebow's rushing yards.

mwill07
01-17-2012, 08:25 PM
This is that same crap someone pulled before. Counting games where Willis was hurt and only carried a few times. Then giving KO all the McGahee yards for the SD game and of course Tebow none of them.

We had this discussion and worked it all out already. McGahee put up about .5 ypc more under Tebow than Orton. That's the only way it can be fairly measured. Not mind-blowing, but not insignificant.

Average it out over the season and it probably amounts to what would have been 125 extra yards (based on his 250 carries on the year)

But the real reason the Broncos became #1 running the ball was obviously because of Tebow's rushing yards.

Hmm... I figured it was because of the obscene run/pass ratio. Isn't that what this thread is about to begin with?

BroncoBeavis
01-17-2012, 08:30 PM
Hmm... I figured it was because of the obscene run/pass ratio. Isn't that what this thread is about to begin with?

Being so run predictable obviously doesn't help the running game. But I'm not sure that's what you're talking about.

mwill07
01-17-2012, 08:45 PM
Being so run predictable obviously doesn't help the running game. But I'm not sure that's what you're talking about.
Doesn't it go hand in hand?
We ran the ball roughly 55% of the time. Last time I checked, NFL average was about 46%.

If we are statistically more likely to run relative to NFL average, that makes us both more predictable and really increases rushing yards.

BroncoBeavis
01-17-2012, 08:56 PM
Doesn't it go hand in hand?
We ran the ball roughly 55% of the time. Last time I checked, NFL average was about 46%.

If we are statistically more likely to run relative to NFL average, that makes us both more predictable and really increases rushing yards.

I guess if you're talking yards per game, but I don't think that's a useful measure. If you're talking yards per carry then more frequency meaning more yards per game doesn't really matter.

And Willis didn't actually get a ton more carries with Tebow than he did with Orton. Most of the extra attempts when Tebow took over went to Tebow or Ball. Or even Moreno.

colorado jones
01-17-2012, 09:00 PM
That's conveniently excluding the plethora of average teams like SD, NYJ, Oak, Chicago, etc

FIFY

BroncoBeavis
01-17-2012, 09:04 PM
FIFY

I think you could just about accuse every playoff team of having a pussy schedule by some of the standards that get used around here.

errand
01-17-2012, 09:36 PM
Dude.

Just give it up.

Tebow is going to be starting here next year no matter what you say.

Do you really want to waste yours and everyone's time just beating that dead horse into a powder?

Move on already.

Dude....no ****!

I have stated he's earned the starter's gig...i just wonder why you and your clown car full of friends have to post threads defending (or making excuses for) his poor showings......blaming everyone but him.

TheReverend
01-17-2012, 09:38 PM
Referenced stat and thread on podcast

Dedhed
01-17-2012, 09:45 PM
You should talk...your clown posse claimed Tebow was the reason we won 7 of his 12 starts...He sure wasn't the reason we won 1 of our first 5 was he?










pssst....He was the reason....shhhh

Dedhed
01-17-2012, 10:40 PM
McGahee with Orton 1-4

McGahee with Tebow 7-5

fixed

Jetmeck
01-17-2012, 10:59 PM
Dude....no ****!

I have stated he's earned the starter's gig...i just wonder why you and your clown car full of friends have to post threads defending (or making excuses for) his poor showings......blaming everyone but him.


I call things as I see them. Tebow needs work like basically any second year QB would. Tebow needs WR's that can beat coverage and get open. Tebow needs an O-line that can man up and protect when the defense KNOWS we are passing.

The above facts are known and recognized by most sane people.

You on the other hand are CLUELESS and a HATER !

BroncoMan4ever
01-18-2012, 01:49 AM
well realistically, how often were we really ahead in games with him under center? majority of his wins were comebacks anyway. so without actually seeing how many total plays we had while leading, it is hard to gauge just how little we were throwing the ball with the lead.

Agamemnon
01-18-2012, 01:54 AM
Tebow's 2011 Season

Passing Attempts while ahead: 27
Passing Attempts while behind: 244

****ing retarded.

TonyR
01-18-2012, 06:21 AM
Tebow is going to be starting here next year no matter what you say.

Doesn't matter what he says, or what you say. But if you actually listen to what Elway said you shouldn't be so confident of this...

http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=espn:7468121

BroncoBeavis
01-18-2012, 07:20 AM
Doesn't matter what he says, or what you say. But if you actually listen to what Elway said you shouldn't be so confident of this...

http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=espn:7468121

I don't see Elway as quite this kind of word parser. I doubt he gave the kind of distinctions you're making much thought.

And If he said 'going into next season' you'd say "but he didn't say THROUGH next season!"

If he said "through next season" you'd say "but he didn't say "No Matter What Happens in Camp"

Barring injury Tebow will start next season. The taste of a playoff win clinched it 100%.

As I said earlier, Aaron Freakin Rodgers took over for a Packers team who was one play away from the Super Bowl the year before his first year (playing)

And he went 6-10. You pull Tebow out after only 1 season's worth of games and have that same thing happen to a new QB (which is more likely than not.) The organization would get cleansed top to bottom. And they all know it.

TonyR
01-18-2012, 08:36 AM
I don't see Elway as quite this kind of word parser. I doubt he gave the kind of distinctions you're making much thought.

I could be completley wrong. But I found his comments far from unequivocal. Instead of saying Tebow is the unquestioned future at the QB position he basically says he gets to start camp out as the starter. I think this says something, but again maybe I'm reading something in to nothing. But if you put all of Elway's comments together I don't think he's sold on Tebow and if he figures out a way to land a replacement he'll do it.

Shotgun Willie
01-18-2012, 08:47 AM
I could be completley wrong. But I found his comments far from unequivocal. Instead of saying Tebow is the unquestioned future at the QB position he basically says he gets to start camp out as the starter. I think this says something, but again maybe I'm reading something in to nothing. But if you put all of Elway's comments together I don't think he's sold on Tebow and if he figures out a way to land a replacement he'll do it.

Exactly.

And what's he supposed to say? We literally don't have another QB on the roster and under contract for 2012, so by default alone, Tebow HAS to be named the starter for camp as of today.

Is he really going to say "Tim's coming back, but he's going to start out camp as the #3 behind an unnamed FA we plan to sign in March and an unnamed kid we plan to draft in April"?

TheReverend
01-18-2012, 08:56 AM
fixed

8-5 with Tebow.

BroncoBeavis
01-18-2012, 09:28 AM
You guys live in a fantasy land. At this point Tebow's bigger than Elway. He's bigger than any and all coaches on the team.

Right or wrong... they pull him and fail... they're done. And if he goes onto succeed anywhere else, it would be career suicide.

And for what? To cross their fingers and hope some nobody can come out of nowhere and light things up with an offense that has obvious issues going way beyond Tebow?

Not happening. I think we should make it interesting with a friendly bet. Tebow is our #1 QB at the start of next season and I get to pick your avatar for the first half of next season (up until the Broncos Game 9 say)

Someone else passes Timmy on the depth chart by then, you can pick my avatar. :)

Good?

BroncoBeavis
01-18-2012, 09:31 AM
On a semi-related note. I rewatched some high(low)lights from the Pats game and our protection was ridiculous. Brady had far more time with 3 wides and Gronk streaking instead of blocking than we ever did in our 'max protect' packages.

Way more 3 man rush than is reasonable. I can see it once in a blue moon to keep the QB guessing. But come on man? We 3 man'd Brady in the Red Zone way too often.

epicSocialism4tw
01-18-2012, 09:40 AM
Dude....no ****!

I have stated he's earned the starter's gig...i just wonder why you and your clown car full of friends have to post threads defending (or making excuses for) his poor showings......blaming everyone but him.

Tebow hasn't even started a full seasons worth of games yet.

Its normal to expect some ups and downs.


This guy is the Broncos' starting QB. Nobody wants to read or hear incessant whining about a promising young player on a team full of promising young players.

Why dont you go whine about Orlando Franklin, Erick Decker, Demaryius Thomas, Quinton Carter, JD Walton, Zane Beadles, Virgil Green, Knowshon Moreno, Chris Harris, Rahim Moore, Von Miller, and Marcus Thomas?

epicSocialism4tw
01-18-2012, 09:45 AM
Exactly.

And what's he supposed to say? We literally don't have another QB on the roster and under contract for 2012, so by default alone, Tebow HAS to be named the starter for camp as of today.

Is he really going to say "Tim's coming back, but he's going to start out camp as the #3 behind an unnamed FA we plan to sign in March and an unnamed kid we plan to draft in April"?

If you havent yet figured out Elways MO, he is always diplomatic in his speech.

This was very obviously Elway endorsing Tebow so that he can get the offseason attention of the starter.

All of the major news outlets are covering it as though it is a full endorsement.

Only the haters who are sifting through every sentance clinging to the hope that Tebow may, in some way somehow, be jettisonned by John Elway.

Its a really tired and childish way to look at things here.

Tebow was the story of the NFL this year. There is absolutely zero chance that the team goes into the season without Tebow as starter. Tebows story has to play out in front of the public's eyes. If he fails, he'll fail as the starter. He will not be sat down again for a player who is not an MVP-type QB immediately. The Broncos will not play a developmental player in front of Tebow. The Broncos will not play another middle-tier QB in front of Tebow.

This story is over. Give it up.

Dedhed
01-18-2012, 10:06 AM
I could be completley wrong. But I found his comments far from unequivocal. Instead of saying Tebow is the unquestioned future at the QB position he basically says he gets to start camp out as the starter. I think this says something, but again maybe I'm reading something in to nothing. But if you put all of Elway's comments together I don't think he's sold on Tebow and if he figures out a way to land a replacement he'll do it.
You're wrong. You're blinded by your hope that Tebow will flop.

TonyR
01-18-2012, 10:30 AM
You're wrong. You're blinded by your hope that Tebow will flop.

I'm not blinded by anything. Go listen to what John Elway says in that presser, and the way he says it, and combine it with the totality of his words and actions, and then come back to me and tell me honestly that you think he's 100% sold on Tebow.

Read this article, and the watch (and listen to) the video embedded within it. It's all right there for you to see.

http://espn.go.com/espn/commentary/story/_/page/hill-120117/tim-tebow-secure-future-denver-broncos-productive-offseason

And you need to stop concerning yourself with what I think and start thinking about what John Elway (and maybe John Fox and Brian Xanders) think.

epicSocialism4tw
01-18-2012, 10:31 AM
I'm not blinded by anything. Go listen to what John Elway says in that presser, and the way he says it, and combine it with the totality of his words and actions, and then come back to me and tell me honestly that you think he's 100% sold on Tebow.

Read this article, and the watch (and listen to) the video embedded within it. It's all right there for you to see.

http://espn.go.com/espn/commentary/story/_/page/hill-120117/tim-tebow-secure-future-denver-broncos-productive-offseason

That story is over.

You guys are nothing but trolls.

KO5K
01-18-2012, 10:40 AM
I'm not blinded by anything. Go listen to what John Elway says in that presser, and the way he says it, and combine it with the totality of his words and actions, and then come back to me and tell me honestly that you think he's 100% sold on Tebow.

People will read into it how they want to.

You think Elway comes off as non-supportive of Tebow, your view being slanted that way will be of no surprise to anyone whose read your posts this year.

Meanwhile, other people come away with the complete opposite view:


Elway repeatedly made comparisons between himself and Tebow. I was looking for that. Shows he embraces Tebow and what he does.. #Broncos


People's takes are likely to be heavily influence by their own opinions on Tebow the QB and thus trying to discuss what Elway really thinks is pointless.

BroncoBeavis
01-18-2012, 10:55 AM
I'm not blinded by anything. Go listen to what John Elway says in that presser, and the way he says it, and combine it with the totality of his words and actions, and then come back to me and tell me honestly that you think he's 100% sold on Tebow.

There's a bet on the table Tony. Let's make it happen. :)

TonyR
01-18-2012, 11:15 AM
That story is over.

You guys are nothing but trolls.

Such a simpleton. The story has just begun. And who's trolling? Once again, this isn't about what I think.

TonyR
01-18-2012, 11:18 AM
You think Elway comes off as non-supportive of Tebow...

No, I didn't say that. He's not "non-supportive". He's just not unequivocally supportive. He could have said "Tim Tebow is our unquestioned starter next season and beyond.", or something of that nature. He didn't. He was considerably more nuanced. Again, listen to the Bayless video, then listen to Elways actual words and the way he says them. You don't really even need to be all that perceptive to pick up on it. Elway specifically leaves the door open.

DeuceOfClub
01-18-2012, 11:19 AM
Tebow's 2011 Season

Passing Attempts while ahead: 27
Passing Attempts while behind: 244

Tebow's 2011 Season

Total time ahead: 122:29 minutes (52:31 of them @KC)
Total time behind: 415:26 minutes

TonyR
01-18-2012, 11:19 AM
There's a bet on the table Tony. Let's make it happen. :)

That would be a sucker's bet because the odds of Elway finding a replacement aren't good. If I was to bet, despite how I perceive Elway feels, I'd bet on Tebow being the starter next year. But I wouldn't be very confident in that bet so I wouldn't put a lot on it.

epicSocialism4tw
01-18-2012, 11:22 AM
Such a simpleton. The story has just begun. And who's trolling? Once again, this isn't about what I think.

The story has long been over, and Tebow's legendary first season rang the death-knell.

Give it up and move on, TrollyR.

TonyR
01-18-2012, 11:31 AM
The story has long been over, and Tebow's legendary first season rang the death-knell.

I'd think you'd consider ending your grandstanding predictions after the way you embarrassed yourself leading up to the NE game, where among other things you criticized anyone and everyone who predicted we'd get blown out in that game. Don't make me go bump all the stupid threads you started and imbecilic comments you made. But here you are making bold statements that may blow up in your face again. Again, the story is far from over. Good or bad, succeed or fail, it's only just begun. Can't we have a discussion here without you labeling and catergorzing everyone? Are you capabable of having an adult conversation with people who don't agree with you? If so, you've yet to prove it.

epicSocialism4tw
01-18-2012, 11:38 AM
I'd think you'd consider ending your grandstanding predictions after the way you embarrassed yourself leading up to the NE game, where among other things you criticized anyone and everyone who predicted we'd get blown out in that game. Don't make me go bump all the stupid threads you started and imbecilic comments you made. But here you are making bold statements that may blow up in your face again. Again, the story is far from over. Good or bad, succeed or fail, it's only just begun. Can't we have a discussion here without you labeling and catergorzing everyone? Are you capabable of having an adult conversation with people who don't agree with you? If so, you've yet to prove it.

Its over. Move on.

Eldorado
01-18-2012, 11:45 AM
Hey Guys! Way to fv3k up a good thread! Thanks!

:wave:

BroncoBeavis
01-18-2012, 12:29 PM
That would be a sucker's bet because the odds of Elway finding a replacement aren't good. If I was to bet, despite how I perceive Elway feels, I'd bet on Tebow being the starter next year. But I wouldn't be very confident in that bet so I wouldn't put a lot on it.

Yeah, that's pretty much what I thought.

Someone tells you "Get over it dude, Tebow's the QB next year. Might as well get used to it"

You return with "Hey, look out. Elway doesn't sound sold. He could bring someone in"

Someone else says "Wanna Bet?"

Then all we hear is blah blah blah about sucker's bets and divining Elway's true feelings, even though the whole convo originated with one truth, which is Timmy's the guy next year. How Elway feels deep down his hall of fame insides is irrelevant. He's not pulling Timmy. Bank it.

So we're full circle. Time to deal with it.

bendog
01-18-2012, 12:32 PM
And Phil Anchutiz is supposedly putting up a billion of his money to build a stadium in LA....

HAT
01-18-2012, 12:53 PM
Who cares what Elway thinks? It won't be his decision. If whoever they go out & get for #2 plays lights out from July to September AND Tebow show zero improvement or actually regresses.....Fox will start whoever he thinks gives them the best chance to win. Just like he did last year. Coaches coach to keep their jobs...Not to win popularity contests.

BroncoBeavis
01-18-2012, 01:51 PM
Who cares what Elway thinks? It won't be his decision. If whoever they go out & get for #2 plays lights out from July to September AND Tebow show zero improvement or actually regresses.....Fox will start whoever he thinks gives them the best chance to win. Just like he did last year. Coaches coach to keep their jobs...Not to win popularity contests.

This decision's big enough that at the end of the day, it might be Bowlen's.

He's not going to watch someone piss his franchise down the toilet in the name of another "Best Chance to Win" fiasco like last year.

Do it once, you can chalk it up to an honest mistake. Do the same thing twice to the most popular young QB on planet Earth?

Armageddon. At this point the decision is well beyond Fox's paygrade.

Shotgun Willie
01-18-2012, 02:07 PM
This decision's big enough that at the end of the day, it might be Bowlen's.........At this point the decision is well beyond Fox's paygrade.

I was led to believe that Fox probably has more money than Bowlen at this point....

bendog
01-18-2012, 02:10 PM
I was led to believe that Fox probably has more money than Bowlen at this point....

And I was of the impression that putting in Tebow and finding a way to win games and get in the playoffs was about sellign club seats .... but hey, maybe it was about wrecking Tim the qotf.

BroncoBeavis
01-18-2012, 02:20 PM
I was led to believe that Fox probably has more money than Bowlen at this point....

Even if that were true... that would reinforce the need to keep the Golden Goose even more.

Timmy will sell the tickets next year. Guaranteed. There's not another QB available you could say that about, save Peyton Manning.

bendog
01-18-2012, 02:24 PM
Even if that were true... that would reinforce the need to keep the Golden Goose even more.

Timmy will sell the tickets next year. Guaranteed. There's not another QB available you could say that about, save Peyton Manning.

If Tebow and the broncos play like they did the last 3 games of the season, you'll see billboards calling for his crucifixion.

BroncoBeavis
01-18-2012, 02:27 PM
If Tebow and the broncos play like they did the last 3 games of the season, you'll see billboards calling for his crucifixion.

Funny since we went all of 2010 sans billboards

bendog
01-18-2012, 02:33 PM
Funny since we went all of 2010 sans billboards

lame

BroncoBeavis
01-18-2012, 02:35 PM
lame

yeah no kidding. To think if only we'd acted sooner- best chance to win never even had to happen :)

bendog
01-18-2012, 02:38 PM
yeah right, that gimmick offense and the qb who can't pass to save his ****ing soul were the way to the lombardi

get football for dummies, read it, and we can talk tebow in six months.

BroncoBeavis
01-18-2012, 02:39 PM
yeah right, that gimmick offense and the qb who can't pass to save his ****ing soul were the way to the lombardi

get football for dummies, read it, and we can talk tebow in six months.

Ahh the full jhizz. Well played sir. Well played.

TheReverend
01-18-2012, 02:50 PM
yeah right, that gimmick offense and the qb who can't pass to save his ****ing soul were the way to the lombardi

get football for dummies, read it, and we can talk tebow in six months.

You're seriously an idiot. I hope bad things happen to you.

BroncoBeavis
01-18-2012, 02:55 PM
You're seriously an idiot. I hope bad things happen to you.

Easy Rev. No need to fight jhizz with jhizz.

If Benson here wants to surf the nets with his dog-and-kitty-laden couch pictures lecturing the Heisman trophy winning SEC passing record setter on how KO would raise Lombardi's a thousand times before he ever could, while calling everyone who believes otherwise a 'dummy'...let him have his moment.

It is what it is. :)

TheReverend
01-18-2012, 03:08 PM
Easy Rev. No need to fight jhizz with jhizz.

If Benson here wants to surf the nets with his dog-and-kitty-laden couch pictures lecturing the Heisman trophy winning SEC passing record setter on how KO would raise Lombardi's a thousand times before he ever could, while calling everyone who believes otherwise a 'dummy'...let him have his moment.

It is what it is. :)

I mean... it's not like we've seen DEFINITIVE proof to the contrary MULTIPLE times over. Jesus some people

bendog
01-18-2012, 04:32 PM
hey rev tell me again how shanny's got wash on the right track. I am in awe of your football knowledge, asshat

TheReverend
01-18-2012, 04:37 PM
hey rev tell me again how shanny's got wash on the right track. I am in awe of your football knowledge, asshat

...Because he does? That team has made massive strides to its foundation over the past couple seasons. Need a QB for sure but I expect that to happen in April.

Agamemnon
01-18-2012, 07:10 PM
hey rev tell me again how shanny's got wash on the right track. I am in awe of your football knowledge, asshat

Always the sign of an intellectually dishonest douchebag: make a hyperbolic statement, get called on it, and then change the subject to something totally unrelated.

maher_tyler
01-18-2012, 07:48 PM
From what I recall, we only threw on 3rd and long or when were down multiple scores and RARELY threw on first down!

The question I have is, if you're worried about letting him throw, why wait until the D knows you really have no choice BUT to throw?? How would that ever be beneficial to any QB?? The play calling was extremely predictable and the coaches were to scared to let him throw early!

BroncoBeavis
01-18-2012, 08:07 PM
From what I recall, we only threw on 3rd and long or when were down multiple scores and RARELY threw on first down!

The question I have is, if you're worried about letting him throw, why wait until the D knows you really have no choice BUT to throw?? How would that ever be beneficial to any QB?? The play calling was extremely predictable and the coaches were to scared to let him throw early!

8 straight 1st down runs to start the game against the Pats.

Went and looked at how Koob broke the ice with Leinart in the game he had to fill in for Schaub.

Leinart's first two first downs were passes, then one run, another pass.

Koob's first 8 1st downs for Leinart... 5 passes 3 runs. Coming in as a backup. With maybe the best running back in the league in the backfield.

BroncoBeavis
01-18-2012, 08:21 PM
That same game, 2nd string Leinart gets injured. Kubiak has to start his 3rd string QB the following week, TJ Yates in his first NFL start.

First 8 plays

4 runs, 4 passes.