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View Full Version : God & Tebow: What do you believe?


Bronco Yoda
01-13-2012, 10:39 AM
"According to a recent survey (http://pollposition.com/2012/01/12/43-god-helps-tebow-win/), 43.3 percent of people believe divine intervention plays a role in Tim Tebow's success with the Broncos.

Only 42.3 percent of those familiar with Tebow said divine intervention does not play a role in Tebow's success (14.4 percent gave no opinion), meaning there are more respondents who do believe Tebow is receiving a little extra help than there are who don't." (in this survey


This breaks down the demographics of the recent survey (http://www.foxsportsflorida.com/01/12/12/Poll-43-percent-believe-God-helps-Tebow-/msn_landing.html?blockID=644750&feedID=3614).



So where does the 'Mane' stand on this issue?

Do YOU believe that any of Tim Tebow’s success can be attributed to Divine Intervention?

Crushaholic
01-13-2012, 10:41 AM
We joke it about it, but it comes down to pure heart and desire to do whatever it takes to win. That passion is felt, throughout the whole team...

Bronco Yoda
01-13-2012, 10:54 AM
So are you surprised then about the results?

ludo21
01-13-2012, 10:57 AM
God CAN step in if he wants to.

Does he in this case?
probably not, its football, barely half the world even cares about it

Smiling Assassin27
01-13-2012, 11:07 AM
His success can be attributed to his work ethic, skills, and insatiable appetite to succeed. These are God-given. Does God directly intervene in games for him? No. But God preserves the universe in being and acts in and with every being in all they do, directing them to their final end. It's called Divine Providence, which I do believe exists.

jhns
01-13-2012, 11:08 AM
Religion is fiction used to help start society. People needed laws and morals to life in giant populations. Religion helped with this. This means the answer is no.

SonOfLe-loLang
01-13-2012, 11:08 AM
oh jeez, enough already

Kaylore
01-13-2012, 11:12 AM
Not directly. A lot of Godly attributes, hard work, determination, not wasting your free time doing sinful things like drinking, partying, etc. If you live your life with these attributes you will see yourself excel at whatever you focus on.

You don't have to believe in God to have these attributes. However there are a lot of people who do believe in God who have them and they enjoy the benefits.

Bronco Yoda
01-13-2012, 11:16 AM
His success can be attributed to his work ethic, skills, and insatiable appetite to succeed. These are God-given. Does God directly intervene in games for him? No. But God preserves the universe in being and acts in and with every being in all they do, directing them to their final end. It's called Divine Providence, which I do believe exists.

So you're saying NO here....to God intervention in this case, but vote NO OPINION.in the poll.

Interesting....

Powderaddict
01-13-2012, 11:19 AM
No, other than God created the physical universe, that's as far as his involvement in the NFL goes.

Mogulseeker
01-13-2012, 11:22 AM
I think it's possible, but I doubt it.

OBF1
01-13-2012, 11:25 AM
Not directly. A lot of Godly attributes, hard work, determination, not wasting your free time doing wastefull things like posting on the interweb thingie, following losers on twitter, Quoting the stupid on Orangemane, etc. If you live your life with these attributes you will see yourself excel at whatever you focus on.

You don't have to believe in God to have these attributes. However there are a lot of people who do believe in God who have them and they enjoy the benefits.


I was fully expecting you of all people to vote yes.... As I did.

PS: Fixed it for you Hilarious!

Rohirrim
01-13-2012, 11:30 AM
Since there is no such thing as "divine intervention" then, no. But there is the untapped power of human beings, and that is their capacity to believe. Belief itself is a power. Also, if someone believes strongly enough, they tend to move the stresses of performance aside and their own performance becomes more relaxed and confident. In other words, the guy who makes the biggest mistake is often the guy who worries the most about making the biggest mistake. If you truly believe you are in the hands of a superior power, you free yourself from self-judgment, and ergo, perform better. The superior power is yourself. :puff:

g00fyfoot
01-13-2012, 11:40 AM
If we're talking about Tebow getting special favors from god, not just no but hell no.

MacGruder
01-13-2012, 11:43 AM
I used to believe that the miracle like aspect of the Tebow saga came from Tebow's "belief" creating it.. like a placebo effect...

But after this bizarre 3:16 game I am leaning the other way... there may be something really weird going on here. Tebow may be some kind of prophet.

Play2win
01-13-2012, 11:44 AM
Since there is no such thing as "divine intervention" then, no. But there is the untapped power of human beings, and that is their capacity to believe. Belief itself is a power. Also, if someone believes strongly enough, they tend to move the stresses of performance aside and their own performance becomes more relaxed and confident. In other words, the guy who makes the biggest mistake is often the guy who worries the most about making the biggest mistake. If you truly believe you are in the hands of a superior power, you free yourself from self-judgment, and ergo, perform better. The superior power is yourself. :puff:

I might beg to differ that evolution is divine intervention.

Houshyamama
01-13-2012, 11:45 AM
Since there is no such thing as god, no.

Spider
01-13-2012, 11:48 AM
LOL like a boxer that prays after a match ...... Dear lord in heaven , thank you for helping me beat the living shiat out of that arsehole ...amen

Smiling Assassin27
01-13-2012, 11:50 AM
So you're saying NO here....to God intervention in this case, but vote NO OPINION.in the poll.

Interesting....

Yup, the answer I'm looking for is not an option.

Trippinshrumes
01-13-2012, 11:50 AM
its just ridiculous that people in this country are stupid enough to believe god, jesus, a higher power... whatever would or even could come down and just change the results of a football game, tebow was good in college, hes decent in the nfl. he has his moments and hopefully one day he'll be great. theres nothing to it besides it is what it is, and religion and/or god has in no way changed anything

OBF1
01-13-2012, 11:55 AM
its just ridiculous that people in this country are stupid enough to believe god, jesus, a higher power... whatever would or even could come down and just change the results of a football game, tebow was good in college, hes decent in the nfl. he has his moments and hopefully one day he'll be great. theres nothing to it besides it is what it is, and religion and/or god has in no way changed anything


Why not run this line of BS by Tim Tebow, I would love to hear his response.

epicSocialism4tw
01-13-2012, 11:57 AM
His success can be attributed to his work ethic, skills, and insatiable appetite to succeed. These are God-given. Does God directly intervene in games for him? No. But God preserves the universe in being and acts in and with every being in all they do, directing them to their final end. It's called Divine Providence, which I do believe exists.

^ This.

Bronco Yoda
01-13-2012, 11:58 AM
Yup, the answer I'm looking for is not an option.

What would that option be then?

I mirrored the Poll so we could compare our results to the national survey later on.

btw, good responses by all so far. Very interesting.

epicSocialism4tw
01-13-2012, 11:58 AM
its just ridiculous that people in this country are stupid enough to believe god, jesus, a higher power... whatever would or even could come down and just change the results of a football game, tebow was good in college, hes decent in the nfl. he has his moments and hopefully one day he'll be great. theres nothing to it besides it is what it is, and religion and/or god has in no way changed anything

It makes Tebow who he is, and thus has both a direct and indirect influence on his play.

epicSocialism4tw
01-13-2012, 11:59 AM
The superior power is yourself.

That's something Terrell Owens probably believes wholeheartedly. Ha!

Jay3
01-13-2012, 12:01 PM
His success can be attributed to his work ethic, skills, and insatiable appetite to succeed. These are God-given. Does God directly intervene in games for him? No. But God preserves the universe in being and acts in and with every being in all they do, directing them to their final end. It's called Divine Providence, which I do believe exists.

Yeah, this. The poll choices don't really fit the way the universe works.

God is the author of the entire shebang. The complete story. He doesn't sit on his heels watching football games -- he ordains all that comes to pass.

Fedaykin
01-13-2012, 12:05 PM
Religion is obviously a bit motivator for him. People are motivated by a lot of different things.

That in no way implies that his beliefs are true or that there is divine intervention going on. The latter is just, frankly, bat****. Even a lot of religious people would agree it would be silly (perhaps blasphemous) to think there would be divine intervention in something as entirely unimportant as a game.

TomTivo
01-13-2012, 12:11 PM
If God was real, and was helping with this, then I would be pretty pissed off. He should have better things to do than help Tim Tebow win football games. I don't even really believe God exists, so no, divine intervention is not going on.

However, there is no doubt that Tebow's belief in God has shaped him as a person and as a football player. He draws inspiration from his religion, and that probably fuels a lot of his success and his never say quit attitude. Therefore, do I think we would be seeing these results if Tebow didn't have Christianity as a fundamental part of his life? Probably not.

epicSocialism4tw
01-13-2012, 12:15 PM
Religion is obviously a bit motivator for him. People are motivated by a lot of different things.

That in no way implies that his beliefs are true or that there is divine intervention going on. The latter is just, frankly, bat****. Even a lot of religious people would agree it would be silly (perhaps blasphemous) to think there would be divine intervention in something as entirely unimportant as a game.

Christian doctrine teaches that God is intimately involved in the dance of every atom in every temporal trajectory at every possible quantum spectra.

It is mentioned in the Bible that God "knows the number" of every hair on a person's head.

Part of Jesus' ministry was to inform regular people just how much God was interested in not only their behavior, but their thoughts and intentions.

BroncoBeavis
01-13-2012, 12:17 PM
^ This.

Yes, that, and I keep finding that people have a very shallow idea of what a God who created the universe would be capable of.

I mean I know Conan did it as a comedy bit, but when a lot of people think about God 'intervening' in something, they visualize it like that. And they say things like 'God's got enough other stuff to worry about to bother with a football game' As if a God with the infinite power to speak the universe into existence would need to stop what he's doing, make a trip down to Denver, CO and perform a few parlor tricks in order to affect a game outcome.

gunns
01-13-2012, 12:20 PM
Not directly. A lot of Godly attributes, hard work, determination, not wasting your free time doing sinful things like drinking, partying, etc. If you live your life with these attributes you will see yourself excel at whatever you focus on.

You don't have to believe in God to have these attributes. However there are a lot of people who do believe in God who have them and they enjoy the benefits.

This. If you have these attributes God will bless you with abilities whether you believe in him or not. Add humility and charity to those attributes.

epicSocialism4tw
01-13-2012, 12:22 PM
Yes, that, and I keep finding that people have a very shallow idea of what a God who created the universe would be capable of.

I mean I know Conan did it as a comedy bit, but when a lot of people think about God 'intervening' in something, they visualize it like that. And they say things like 'God's got enough other stuff to worry about to bother with a football game' As if a God with the infinite power to speak the universe into existence would need to stop what he's doing, make a trip down to Denver, CO and perform a few parlor tricks in order to affect a game outcome.

Well, anyone who has had a biology, physics, astronomy, or chemistry course can see just how deep the level of detail goes regarding what God creates. From the sub-atomic particle to the meta relationships of the attractive forces of heavenly bodies...its a detailed piece of work.

Just a small picture of life (the most elegant, detailed property of the universe, IMO): atoms build millions of molecules, molecules build thousands of organelles, organelles build together to make up cells, cells differentiate and work together to create tissues, tissues specialize and combine to form organs, organs work together in concerted organ systems, organ systems work together to make an organism, organisms interact to make families, families interact to make communities of species, communities make ecosystems...on and on...

BroncoBen
01-13-2012, 12:23 PM
So where does the 'Mane' stand on this issue?

Do YOU believe that any of Tim Tebow’s success can be attributed to Divine Intervention?

~shielding my eyes and turning my head~ No Comment.. Subject too touchy, might as well talk politics or what is better Pepsi or Coke.

2KBack
01-13-2012, 12:44 PM
Since there is no such thing as "divine intervention" then, no. But there is the untapped power of human beings, and that is their capacity to believe. Belief itself is a power. Also, if someone believes strongly enough, they tend to move the stresses of performance aside and their own performance becomes more relaxed and confident. In other words, the guy who makes the biggest mistake is often the guy who worries the most about making the biggest mistake. If you truly believe you are in the hands of a superior power, you free yourself from self-judgment, and ergo, perform better. The superior power is yourself. :puff:

This is the closest to how I feel about it. I think humans are capable of amazing things, and I sometimes think it's too bad that we often attribute these feats to something other than than the great capacities that we have.

Jay3
01-13-2012, 12:53 PM
Even a lot of religious people would agree it would be silly (perhaps blasphemous) to think there would be divine intervention in something as entirely unimportant as a game.

But God is not limited in time and space. He does not exist within finite limitations. So the concept of "important" and "unimportant" do not really have meaning to an infinite being.

What comes to pass is precisely what was and is to come to pass in the universe he decided to create.

Same thing is true when "the bad guys win" or when something horrible happens.

So the question really is not one of "intervention," but rather "is any purpose of God, any glimpse into the truth he would like us to see, revealed by the walk of Tim Tebow?"

epicSocialism4tw
01-13-2012, 12:55 PM
This is the closest to how I feel about it. I think humans are capable of amazing things, and I sometimes think it's too bad that we often attribute these feats to something other than than the great capacities that we have.

Humans have an immense capacity for evil behavior, much greater than the few who rise above it.

Look at Africa. A war-torn smattering of violent dictatorships and tribal warfare lashing out at each other for countless generations.

There is a reason why we cling to people who appear to us as transcendent to the evil of the world. There is a reason why Tebow is so popular in that regard. Its because they are rare.

Spider
01-13-2012, 12:57 PM
Dear Lord in heaven , please see your way to help me beat the living shiat out of the blue blooded yankies bastards......... Thanks in advance , Tebow .....amen

Spider
01-13-2012, 12:59 PM
P.S. Lord , Help boobs McGee kick the living shiat out of jhns .....Thanks amen Tebow

myMind
01-13-2012, 01:02 PM
Whatever god is, its got one ****ed up plan if its going to let hundred of thousands die in its name and then suddenly turn around and influence the outcome of a modern day gladiator pit.

Spider
01-13-2012, 01:06 PM
Dear lord in heaven , please please help von miller put his foot so far up Tom Bradys ass , That when Brady goes to brush his teeth he sees a nike logo and cleats ......thanks in advance Tebow

srphoenix
01-13-2012, 01:09 PM
I'll take the bait, although this thread probably should be moved to the WRP forum. While God knows who will win and who will lose because he is omniscient, I don't think He particularly favors the Broncos or any other team. God does care about each and every person though, and that includes the players, coaches, people who go to the games, and those watching at home. Because God cares about us and loves us He wants to communicate to us in anyway possible to let us know of His plan for us and for the world. He doesn't want us to have to face the consequences of sin, i.e. death and separation from a perfectly Holy God.

Tebow has outwardly said that the thing he likes most about football is it's a platform for him to share his faith about who God and Jesus is. With every win more and more people are discussing the so called "Tebow phenomenon" and with it comes the discussion of Jesus Christ. Like epicsocialism said, "Christian's believe that God has an intimate hand and control in every atom from the beginning of creation to eternity." Thus, God is using and furthering the Broncos winning in order to start this exact threads discussion to occur so that other Christian's can step in and share His Gospel about Jesus Christ.

BroncoBeavis
01-13-2012, 01:27 PM
Whatever god is, its got one ****ed up plan if its going to let hundred of thousands die in its name and then suddenly turn around and influence the outcome of a modern day gladiator pit.

You hear that sort of thing a lot. But really what you're asking is for God to remove us (mankind collectively) from the consequences of our own rebellion.

BroncoBeavis
01-13-2012, 01:30 PM
I'll take the bait, although this thread probably should be moved to the WRP forum. While God knows who will win and who will lose because he is omniscient, I don't think He particularly favors the Broncos or any other team. God does care about each and every person though, and that includes the players, coaches, people who go to the games, and those watching at home. Because God cares about us and loves us He wants to communicate to us in anyway possible to let us know of His plan for us and for the world. He doesn't want us to have to face the consequences of sin, i.e. death and separation from a perfectly Holy God.

Tebow has outwardly said that the thing he likes most about football is it's a platform for him to share his faith about who God and Jesus is. With every win more and more people are discussing the so called "Tebow phenomenon" and with it comes the discussion of Jesus Christ. Like epicsocialism said, "Christian's believe that God has an intimate hand and control in every atom from the beginning of creation to eternity." Thus, God is using and furthering the Broncos winning in order to start this exact threads discussion to occur so that other Christian's can step in and share His Gospel about Jesus Christ.

Or put another way. God cares and will intervene if it suits his purposes which none of us can understand.

I will say that God COULD will the Broncos to victory at any point he chose. I won't ever say though that he SHOULD, WOULD, or DID. To pretend to understand how any of the pieces of this puzzle fit together would be pretty arrogant.

myMind
01-13-2012, 01:32 PM
You hear that sort of thing a lot. But really what you're asking is for God to remove us (mankind collectively) from the consequences of our own rebellion.

Im not asking anything from whatever god is.
What rebellion do you speak of?

DenverBrit
01-13-2012, 01:34 PM
43% of those asked are idiots.

BroncoBeavis
01-13-2012, 01:34 PM
Im not asking anything from whatever god is.
What rebellion do you speak of?

We're all in rebellion, in one form or another. But in your example... I'm assuming you were talking about war or something similar in the name of faith.

myMind
01-13-2012, 01:40 PM
We're all in rebellion, in one form or another. But in your example... I'm assuming you were talking about war or something similar in the name of faith.

I was talking about all the people throughout history that have died in god's name, wars included. Not just those people though, the people who die in natural disasters and other unpleasant ways and beg god for mercy as well. Now Im not saying I understand or would want to, but if a god would let all that heartache and strife happen without intervening, it would be pretty cruel of it to decide to take a hand in something that pales in signifigance.

I wouldnt worship such a god.

Agamemnon
01-13-2012, 01:43 PM
Yet more proof that this country is full of morons...

Spider
01-13-2012, 01:46 PM
Dear father in heaven please , help flacco with that uni brow thing he has going ....from the the people of Baltimore

2KBack
01-13-2012, 01:46 PM
Humans have an immense capacity for evil behavior, much greater than the few who rise above it.

Look at Africa. A war-torn smattering of violent dictatorships and tribal warfare lashing out at each other for countless generations.

There is a reason why we cling to people who appear to us as transcendent to the evil of the world. There is a reason why Tebow is so popular in that regard. Its because they are rare.

I didn't specify a morality to the capacity, and honestly would have nothing to do with my statement. Humans have the ability to to both amazing and amazingly terrible things. Neither, in my opinion, are attributed to any power greater than the humans themselves.

BroncoBeavis
01-13-2012, 01:51 PM
I was talking about all the people throughout history that have died in god's name, wars included. Not just those people though, the people who die in natural disasters and other unpleasant ways and beg god for mercy as well. Now Im not saying I understand or would want to, but if a god would let all that heartache and strife happen without intervening, it would be pretty cruel of it to decide to take a hand in something that pales in signifigance.

I wouldnt worship such a god.

I'll pick a part to address, and if it's not the part you're wondering about, feel free to elaborate. But people being killed, whether it be in the name of God or Allah or Marx or anything else doesn't really have anything to do with what people are really fighting about.

One man would fight in the name of Taco John if he thought it might give him free reign over another man. The symbol he uses in service to his ambition is either expedient or irrelevant. It would be like blaming Miles the Bronco for the loss in KC. :)

The real culprit is man's abuse of free will.

Agamemnon
01-13-2012, 01:53 PM
We're all in rebellion, in one form or another.

I rebel against the flying spaghetti monster at every turn, and I'm proud of it...

Agamemnon
01-13-2012, 01:55 PM
The real culprit is man's abuse of free will.

And just to be clear, the abuse of free will is anything outside the will of God, yes? Don't you see the contradiction there?

Crushaholic
01-13-2012, 02:00 PM
So are you surprised then about the results?

While I'm not saying that America's youth is stupid, they do lead the way in this believing in "help from above"....ROFL!

BroncoBeavis
01-13-2012, 02:02 PM
And just to be clear, the abuse of free will is anything outside the will of God, yes? Don't you see the contradiction there?

Not really, no. Please go on.

ludo21
01-13-2012, 02:03 PM
I'll take the bait, although this thread probably should be moved to the WRP forum. While God knows who will win and who will lose because he is omniscient, I don't think He particularly favors the Broncos or any other team. God does care about each and every person though, and that includes the players, coaches, people who go to the games, and those watching at home. Because God cares about us and loves us He wants to communicate to us in anyway possible to let us know of His plan for us and for the world. He doesn't want us to have to face the consequences of sin, i.e. death and separation from a perfectly Holy God.

Tebow has outwardly said that the thing he likes most about football is it's a platform for him to share his faith about who God and Jesus is. With every win more and more people are discussing the so called "Tebow phenomenon" and with it comes the discussion of Jesus Christ. Like epicsocialism said, "Christian's believe that God has an intimate hand and control in every atom from the beginning of creation to eternity." Thus, God is using and furthering the Broncos winning in order to start this exact threads discussion to occur so that other Christian's can step in and share His Gospel about Jesus Christ.


amen.

I love the conversations about Jesus I get to have with my co workers and friends simpy because im a a broncos fan and Tebow is on the team. :strong:

Spider
01-13-2012, 02:06 PM
I'll take the bait, although this thread probably should be moved to the WRP forum. While God knows who will win and who will lose because he is omniscient, I don't think He particularly favors the Broncos or any other team. God does care about each and every person though, and that includes the players, coaches, people who go to the games, and those watching at home. Because God cares about us and loves us He wants to communicate to us in anyway possible to let us know of His plan for us and for the world. He doesn't want us to have to face the consequences of sin, i.e. death and separation from a perfectly Holy God.

Tebow has outwardly said that the thing he likes most about football is it's a platform for him to share his faith about who God and Jesus is. With every win more and more people are discussing the so called "Tebow phenomenon" and with it comes the discussion of Jesus Christ. Like epicsocialism said, "Christian's believe that God has an intimate hand and control in every atom from the beginning of creation to eternity." Thus, God is using and furthering the Broncos winning in order to start this exact threads discussion to occur so that other Christian's can step in and share His Gospel about Jesus Christ.So Tebow is a modern day Moses ......

Turd_Ferguson
01-13-2012, 02:06 PM
So would answering yes to this question in some way be saying that Tebow can't win a game unless God himself comes down from the heavens and changes the outcome of football games?

Agamemnon
01-13-2012, 02:07 PM
Not really, no. Please go on.

An omnipotent being creates you and gives you free will, the ability to choose to do whatever you want, but then declares that following its will is the only legitimate use of that free will. It then tells you that if you use your free will to defy its will, you will go to hell for all eternity. None of that strikes you as contradictory and honestly kind of perverse?

"Here is free will, but you better use it to do exactly what I want or else."

That makes sense to you?

myMind
01-13-2012, 02:11 PM
I'll pick a part to address, and if it's not the part you're wondering about, feel free to elaborate. But people being killed, whether it be in the name of God or Allah or Marx or anything else doesn't really have anything to do with what people are really fighting about.

One man would fight in the name of Taco John if he thought it might give him free reign over another man. The symbol he uses in service to his ambition is either expedient or irrelevant. It would be like blaming Miles the Bronco for the loss in KC. :)

The real culprit is man's abuse of free will.

I see what your saying. I wasnt addressing why men fight, why men die, but the fact that they do, and in horriffic fashion without any intervention from some divinity. Yet somehow a football game is more worthy of said intervention? Does not compute. I guess I could have left out the whole, in god's name part.

Spider
01-13-2012, 02:12 PM
An omnipotent being creates you and gives you free will, the ability to choose to do whatever you want, but then declares that following its will is the only legitimate use of that free will. It then tells you that if you use your free will to defy its will, you will go to hell for all eternity. None of that strikes you as contradictory and honestly kind of perverse?

"Here is free will, but you better use it to do exactly what I want or else."

That makes sense to you?

ochran
...ladies and gentlemen of this supposed jury, I have one final thing I want you to consider. Ladies and gentlemen, this is Chewbacca. Chewbacca is a Wookiee from the planet Kashyyyk. But Chewbacca lives on the planet Endor. Now think about it; that does not make sense!
Gerald Broflovski
Damn it! ... He's using the Chewbacca defense!
Cochran
Why would a Wookiee, an 8-foot-tall Wookiee, want to live on Endor, with a bunch of 2-foot-tall Ewoks? That does not make sense! But more important, you have to ask yourself: What does this have to do with this case? Nothing. Ladies and gentlemen, it has nothing to do with this case! It does not make sense! Look at me. I'm a lawyer defending a major record company, and I'm talkin' about Chewbacca! Does that make sense? Ladies and gentlemen, I am not making any sense! None of this makes sense! And so you have to remember, when you're in that jury room deliberatin' and conjugatin' the Emancipation Proclamation, does it make sense? No! Ladies and gentlemen of this supposed jury, it does not make sense! If Chewbacca lives on Endor, you must acquit! The defense rests.
this is all I got ......... ;D

BroncoBeavis
01-13-2012, 02:17 PM
An omnipotent being creates you and gives you free will, the ability to choose to do whatever you want, but then declares that following its will is the only legitimate use of that free will. It then tells you that if you use your free will to defy its will, you will go to hell for all eternity. None of that strikes you as contradictory and honestly kind of perverse?

"Here is free will, but you better use it to do exactly what I want or else."

That makes sense to you?

Just curious, do you have kids?

epicSocialism4tw
01-13-2012, 02:20 PM
I was talking about all the people throughout history that have died in god's name, wars included. Not just those people though, the people who die in natural disasters and other unpleasant ways and beg god for mercy as well. Now Im not saying I understand or would want to, but if a god would let all that heartache and strife happen without intervening, it would be pretty cruel of it to decide to take a hand in something that pales in signifigance.

I wouldnt worship such a god.

Do you know the evolutionary purpose of the nervous system?

Agamemnon
01-13-2012, 02:21 PM
Just curious, do you have kids?

Please don't use the unruly child analogy...

bombay
01-13-2012, 02:22 PM
God loves all his children, right?

That makes this a ridiculous question.

Spider
01-13-2012, 02:23 PM
God loves all his children, right?

That makes this a ridiculous question.

everyone but jhns , I talked to god last night , we agree jhns is an azzhole

myMind
01-13-2012, 02:23 PM
Do you know the evolutionary purpose of the nervous system?

Why yes I do, but feel free to say what you really mean.

Agamemnon
01-13-2012, 02:23 PM
God loves all his children, right?

That makes this a ridiculous question.

Yes but only the obedient ones get to avoid eternal suffering...

epicSocialism4tw
01-13-2012, 02:24 PM
An omnipotent being creates you and gives you free will, the ability to choose to do whatever you want, but then declares that following its will is the only legitimate use of that free will. It then tells you that if you use your free will to defy its will, you will go to hell for all eternity. None of that strikes you as contradictory and honestly kind of perverse?

"Here is free will, but you better use it to do exactly what I want or else."

That makes sense to you?

"Come to me those who are weary and heavy-laden, for my yoke is easy and my burden is light"

God wants us to follow his will so that we can share in his joy, share in his life. When we rebel against his will we remove ourselves from his joy and his life...we do so repetitively and it buries us underneath a mess.

epicSocialism4tw
01-13-2012, 02:25 PM
Why yes I do, but feel free to say what you really mean.

What do you think the evolutionary purpose of the nervous system is?

Bronco Yoda
01-13-2012, 02:25 PM
But God is not limited in time and space. He does not exist within finite limitations. So the concept of "important" and "unimportant" do not really have meaning to an infinite being.

What comes to pass is precisely what was and is to come to pass in the universe he decided to create.

Same thing is true when "the bad guys win" or when something horrible happens.

So the question really is not one of "intervention," but rather "is any purpose of God, any glimpse into the truth he would like us to see, revealed by the walk of Tim Tebow?"

Come on Jay3...enough with parsing words. You know what the 'spirit' of the poll implies here.

Is God playing favorites. Is Tebow winning with direct help from the Almighty.

Yes....or....No..... there is no try here. :P

Turd_Ferguson
01-13-2012, 02:25 PM
"Come to me those who are weary and heavy-laden, for my yoke is easy and my burden is light"

God wants us to follow his will so that we can share in his joy, share in his life. When we rebel against his will we remove ourselves from his joy and his life...we do so repetitively and it buries us underneath a mess.

Its too bad God wasn't into drinking and strip clubs... He would have been a much more laid back guy.

Rohirrim
01-13-2012, 02:29 PM
God loves all his children, right?

That makes this a ridiculous question.

For a million years, we were just sitting around banging things with rocks. Could you imagine the boredom? Where was god then?

BroncoBeavis
01-13-2012, 02:31 PM
I see what your saying. I wasnt addressing why men fight, why men die, but the fact that they do, and in horriffic fashion without any intervention from some divinity. Yet somehow a football game is more worthy of said intervention? Does not compute. I guess I could have left out the whole, in god's name part.

For contrast, first look at it from a rational atheist's point of view. We attach infinitely more worth to our lives than is actually warranted. In the scope of the universe we are less than specks of dust. We are nothing. Whether you live 5 years or 100 means everything to you. To the universe, it is meaningless. If you have kids who love you or hate you. Doesn't matter. In give or take 100 years (an infinitesimal amount of time in the big picture) nobody on Planet Earth will remember you. Even your great great grandchildren probably won't remember your name. If they do, move down a generation and it won't take long. Even if you rise to world prominence... maybe even the most well known person on the planet, your name might live in a book somewhere for awhile. But even that will get lost in a millennia or two. Which is also an insignificant amount of time.

Now back up and think about those same things from your creator's perspective. What you view as important and what he does cannot possibly be the same. You can't see the big picture. I won't even go into rationalizing what it is god might be trying to do in our lives. Because to do so would be pretentious. But just think of the difference in your perspective vs his. If you had the power to intervene, you would do it differently than your next door neighbor. Because you have different perspectives. Now compare your perspective to God's. You can't possibly comprehend. And neither can I. So I won't pretend.

epicSocialism4tw
01-13-2012, 02:32 PM
Its too bad God wasn't into drinking and strip clubs... He would have been a much more laid back guy.

Well, he did create sex and sunsets. He created the beauty of women. He created alcohol too. Heck, Jesus made water into it. He created the substrates that make up cannabinoids and anti-anxiety medication.

He just didn't want you to ruin yourself or anyone else with them.

BroncoBeavis
01-13-2012, 02:32 PM
Please don't use the unruly child analogy...

Not exactly the angle I was going to take, but why not?

Agamemnon
01-13-2012, 02:33 PM
"Come to me those who are weary and heavy-laden, for my yoke is easy and my burden is light"

God wants us to follow his will so that we can share in his joy, share in his life. When we rebel against his will we remove ourselves from his joy and his life...we do so repetitively and it buries us underneath a mess.

And this is why I can't discuss this stuff with Christians. When a person can't see the absurdity of the notion that an omnipotent being granted us free will only to tell us we must not use it unless it coincides with his will, or else, there really isn't any point.

The God you believe in is like a person who finds a starving man alone in the wilderness, and instead of giving him food freely, he put conditions on the food. Then he tells the man he can always choose to starve if he doesn't like the conditions. Even worse than that, your God is like a person who actually ties up a man in the wilderness until he is starving, and then does all the above. It's ****ed up really.

Agamemnon
01-13-2012, 02:36 PM
Not exactly the angle I was going to take, but why not?

Because it's a terrible analogy that doesn't hold any water?

epicSocialism4tw
01-13-2012, 02:37 PM
And this is why I can't discuss this stuff with Christians. When a person can't see the absurdity of the notion that an omnipotent being granted us free will only to tell us we must not use it unless it coincides with his will, or else, there really isn't any point.

The God you believe in is like a person who finds a starving man alone in the wilderness, and instead of giving him food freely, he put conditions on the food. Then he tells the man he can always choose to starve if he doesn't like the conditions. Even worse than that, your God is like a person who actually ties up a man in the wilderness until he is starving, and then does all the above. It's ****ed up really.

There are no conditions other than to love God and accept his love. Thats where it starts. The hard stuff to chew comes later.

Agamemnon
01-13-2012, 02:38 PM
Well, he did create sex and sunsets. He created the beauty of women. He created alcohol too. Heck, Jesus made water into it. He created the substrates that make up cannabinoids and anti-anxiety medication.

He just didn't want you to ruin yourself or anyone else with them.

Did he actually tell you this?

BroncoBeavis
01-13-2012, 02:39 PM
Because it's a terrible analogy that doesn't hold any water?

It's not even really an analogy. It is what we are.

Turd_Ferguson
01-13-2012, 02:40 PM
Well, he did create sex and sunsets. He created the beauty of women. He created alcohol too. Heck, Jesus made water into it. He created the substrates that make up cannabinoids and anti-anxiety medication.

He just didn't want you to ruin yourself or anyone else with them.

So, why did he decide that everyone should bash a woman to death with rocks if she was ever caught exploring the beauty of another woman? Seems odd.

myMind
01-13-2012, 02:40 PM
What do you think the evolutionary purpose of the nervous system is?

Well, the evolutionary purpose would be rooted in the reptilian brain responce of fight or flight. Its purpose is to ensure an animal has the ability to feel a proper responce to external stimulii, and react for the benefit of its survival. I'd say that is at the core. The sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous system work in tandem to ensure we sense things, and in turn process sensations into feelings and or involuntary responces.

Agamemnon
01-13-2012, 02:41 PM
There are no conditions other than to love God and accept his love. Thats where it starts. The hard stuff to chew comes later.

Therefore there are conditions.

So God amounts to a guy who ties someone up, leaves them in the wilderness until they are about to die, then tells them they can have all the food and water they could ever hope for if they simply love him and accept his love. Otherwise they can die...but even then he still loves them.

Yeah it doesn't sound any better that way.

Agamemnon
01-13-2012, 02:43 PM
It's not even really an analogy. It is what we are.

Then God is an absentee dad.

BroncoBeavis
01-13-2012, 02:43 PM
Therefore there are conditions.

So God amounts to a guy who ties someone up, leaves them in the wilderness until they are about to die, then tells them they can have all the food and water they could ever hope for if they simply love him and accept his love. Otherwise they can die...but even then he still loves them.

Yeah it doesn't sound any better that way.

Would you prefer he force his children to spend eternity with him whether they want to or not?

Hulamau
01-13-2012, 02:45 PM
Not directly. A lot of Godly attributes, hard work, determination, not wasting your free time doing sinful things like drinking, partying, etc. If you live your life with these attributes you will see yourself excel at whatever you focus on.

You don't have to believe in God to have these attributes. However there are a lot of people who do believe in God who have them and they enjoy the benefits.

Well said... as far as drinking and partying away your talents .. that can be seen both in the context of a religious viewpoint as we'll as in basic practical experience of life .i.e. put your hand too close to the fire and odds are high it will get burnt.

epicSocialism4tw
01-13-2012, 02:48 PM
Well, the evolutionary purpose would be rooted in the reptilian brain responce of fight or flight. Its purpose is to ensure an animal has the ability to feel a proper responce to external stimulii, and react for the benefit of its survival. I'd say that is at the core. The sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous system work in tandem to ensure we sense things, and in turn process sensations into feelings and or involuntary responces.

The nervous system does two things: sense and respond.

Pain is part of the nervous system. It has a specific purpose: avoidance. Avoidance for survival.

epicSocialism4tw
01-13-2012, 02:49 PM
Therefore there are conditions.

So God amounts to a guy who ties someone up, leaves them in the wilderness until they are about to die, then tells them they can have all the food and water they could ever hope for if they simply love him and accept his love. Otherwise they can die...but even then he still loves them.

Yeah it doesn't sound any better that way.

There are conditions as much as asking you to walk through a door to a feast instead of turning and walking away from it to eat refuse.

myMind
01-13-2012, 02:50 PM
The nervous system does two things: sense and respond.

Pain is part of the nervous system. It has a specific purpose: avoidance. Avoidance for survival.

I know, whats your point as it relates to my post that you originally quoted?

epicSocialism4tw
01-13-2012, 02:53 PM
I know, whats your point as it relates to my post that you originally quoted?

People talk about pain as though it is unfair and unnecessary. It is part of the nervous system and has been used throughout time as a means to guide organisms away from things and behaviors that would destroy them. As people in health care know, the greatest motivator for adherence to a doctor's plan of care is pain. Patients with pain will take the medicine they are supposed to take.

How do you know a relationship isnt working out? Emotional pain.

Agamemnon
01-13-2012, 02:53 PM
Would you prefer he force his children to spend eternity with him whether they want to or not?

It's not a matter of my preference. I don't believe in your God, or any of the rest of it. I'm just trying to point out the messed up logic of your beliefs.

And really if you think a God who forces all his children to spend eternity with him no matter what is any worse than a God who sends all his wayward children to eternal suffering, you've got some weird standards. Both are messed up ideas that ultimately undermine any notion of true personal freedom, but the one you seem to prefer is also actively sadistic.

epicSocialism4tw
01-13-2012, 02:56 PM
It's not a matter of my preference. I don't believe in your God, or any of the rest of it. I'm just trying to point out the messed up logic of your beliefs.

And really if you think a God who forces all his children to spend eternity with him no matter what is any worse than a God who sends all his wayward children to eternal suffering, you've got some weird standards. Both are messed up ideas that ultimately undermine any notion of true personal freedom, but the one you seem to prefer is also actively sadistic.

You should think more about what he is saying.

BroncoBeavis
01-13-2012, 02:56 PM
It's not a matter of my preference. I don't believe in your God, or any of the rest of it. I'm just trying to point out the messed up logic of your beliefs.

And really if you think a God who forces all his children to spend eternity with him no matter what is any worse than a God who sends all his wayward children to eternal suffering, you've got some weird standards. Both are messed up ideas that ultimately undermine any notion of true personal freedom, but the one you seem to prefer is also actively sadistic.

He sends them to the consequences of their own decision. Just as if your child decides to move to Oakland and live life wearing Star Wars costumes to Raiders home games. You tried... but at some point you have to let them reap what they sow. :)

epicSocialism4tw
01-13-2012, 02:58 PM
He sends them to the consequences of their own decision. Just as if your child decides to move to Oakland and live life wearing Star Wars costumes to Raiders home games. You tried... but at some point you have to let them reap what they sow. :)

Tyrell's parents?

He wears a pirate's outfit.

Hulamau
01-13-2012, 02:58 PM
The anthropomorphizing of 'God' with the typical 'father-wayward son' stories with usual "do this or else" threats is the written culmination of centuries of historical projections on top of projections used as a way to label and carve out a common world view to share amongst each member of a social group, however big it might grow, and to facilitate surivival as a social species when banding together under a common goal and commonly accepted behaviors (i.e. the golden rule) was/is most advantageous for said survival.

It can have its advantages when not taken to extremes as well as major disadvantages for survival when extremist of any clothe take over.

epicSocialism4tw
01-13-2012, 03:01 PM
The anthropomorphizing of 'God' with the typical 'father-wayward son' stories with usual "do this or else" threats is the written culmination of centuries of historical projections on top of projections used as a way to label and carve out a common world view to share amongst each member of a social group, however big it might grow, and to facilitate surivival as a social species when banding together under a common goal and commonly accepted behaviors (i.e. the golden rule) was/is most advantageous for said survival.

Christianity is not something that is advantageous for survival.

BroncoBeavis
01-13-2012, 03:01 PM
The anthropomorphizing of 'God' with the typical 'father-wayward son' stories with usual "do this or else" threats is the written culmination of centuries of historical projections on top of projections used as a way to label and carve out a common world view to share amongst each member of a social group, however big it might grow, and to facilitate surivival as a social species when banding together under a common goal and commonly accepted behaviors (i.e. the golden rule) was/is most advantageous for said survival.

I've heard this time and time again. I've yet to hear a coherent portrayal of Jesus Christ as an agent of social control. If the world lived to his standards, power structures would topple themselves.

Agamemnon
01-13-2012, 03:04 PM
There are conditions as much as asking you to walk through a door to a feast instead of turning and walking away from it to eat refuse.

And of course there can only be two choices right? A feast and refuse. Free will with only two choices, one of which being infinitely appealing and the other being pure ****, is not free will at all. So the very notion of free will being created by God becomes a farce.

It's like being presented the option of making love to a beautiful woman or having your genitals gnawed off by rats, with no other choices being made available. And even worse, the two choices are hidden behind doors you can't see through. So when you choose door number two which has the rats, all the claims that you had free will ring utterly hollow. You had free will between two choices, both obscured from your perspective, one wonderful, the other horrible. Really it's a sick joke, and nothing more.

epicSocialism4tw
01-13-2012, 03:06 PM
And of course there can only be two choices right? A feast and refuse. Free will with only two choices, one of which being infinitely appealing and the other being pure ****, is not free will at all. So the very notion of free will being created by God becomes a farce.

It's like being presented the option of making love to a beautiful woman or having your genitals gnawed off by rats, with no other choices being made available. And even worse, the two choices are hidden behind doors you can't see through. So when you choose door number two which has the rats, all the claims that you had free will ring utterly hollow. You had free will between two choices, both obscured from your perspective, one wonderful, the other horrible. Really it's a sick joke, and nothing more.

The reality is that once you get a taste of the feast, everything else tastes like refuse.

And the door is not hidden at all. "Even the rocks cry out".

Agamemnon
01-13-2012, 03:07 PM
Christianity is not something that is advantageous for survival.

Tell that to all the European and American pagans who were slaughtered at the hands of the forebears of modern Christianity.

BroncoBeavis
01-13-2012, 03:08 PM
And of course there can only be two choices right? A feast and refuse. Free will with only two choices, one of which being infinitely appealing and the other being pure ****, is not free will at all. So the very notion of free will being created by God becomes a farce.

It's like being presented the option of making love to a beautiful woman or having your genitals gnawed off by rats, with no other choices being made available. And even worse, the two choices are hidden behind doors you can't see through. So when you choose door number two which has the rats, all the claims that you had free will ring utterly hollow. You had free will between two choices, both obscured from your perspective, one wonderful, the other horrible. Really it's a sick joke, and nothing more.

Nobody can force you to see anything you don't want to. I've found though that most of the time when people talk about it in these terms, they haven't really done any investigation. They're upset that they can't see but it never occurs to them that they never really looked. I'm not saying that's you because I don't know you.

But if you haven't at least read the gospels, you can't really claim to have been hidden from anything.

epicSocialism4tw
01-13-2012, 03:10 PM
Tell that to all the European and American pagans who were slaughtered at the hands of the forebears of modern Christianity.

...or those in southern Sudan who are slaughtered with machetes in front of their wives and children who are taken captive and used as slaves.

He was speaking of Christianity as an anthropomological system that promotes survival by passing memetic behaviors through generations. That would require that Christianity be selfish, which is the opposite of what Christianity teaches.

Miss I.
01-13-2012, 03:10 PM
God has better things to do then watch Tebow? What you talking about people? Everybody Loves Tebow...it's practically a sitcom in the making...

Although, the faulty logic in the idea that God is too busy to help Tebow is that if God exists and She is truly ominpotent She can do whatever She wants, as She has no limits. Predicated on the idea that the faithful who believe in Jesus are saved, I suppose you could make the argument She's rewarding the faith.

However, truth is, if She exists, it's not being too busy or not being incapable of changing things if She chose, so much that if you believe Christian doctrine in this particular case, then God gave people free will and does not intervene (though in the Old Testament apparently She did all the time). It gets all weird though when you start mixing the God has a plan stuff in there, because if that's the case, do we really have free will?

Agamemnon
01-13-2012, 03:11 PM
The reality is that once you get a taste of the feast, everything else tastes like refuse.

And the door is not hidden at all. "Even the rocks cry out".

Please. If that were the case, Christianity (or something generally like it) would have sprung up all over the world organically. But that didn't happen. It took violent conquest and conversion to make Christianity what it is today. So if the "rocks cry out" they do so with pathetically weak voices apparently.

myMind
01-13-2012, 03:11 PM
People talk about pain as though it is unfair and unnecessary. It is part of the nervous system and has been used throughout time as a means to guide organisms away from things and behaviors that would destroy them. As people in health care know, the greatest motivator for adherence to a doctor's plan of care is pain. Patients with pain will take the medicine they are supposed to take.

How do you know a relationship isnt working out? Emotional pain.

I see your point, but it doesnt really relate to war. Our species has experienced the pain of war over and over, but have we learned from it, have we allowed the pain and horror to guide us away from it? No, obviously not.

So should god intervene in an aspect of humanity that is ignoring their natural response to pain, or in a recreational pastime that allows people to enjoy life?

epicSocialism4tw
01-13-2012, 03:14 PM
Please. If that were the case, Christianity (or something generally like it) would have sprung up all over the world organically. But that didn't happen. It took violent conquest and conversion to make Christianity what it is today. So if the "rocks cry out" they do so with pathetically weak voices apparently.

Christianity did spring up organically. It was put down by the Romans until Constantine.

Agamemnon
01-13-2012, 03:15 PM
...or those in southern Sudan who are slaughtered with machetes in front of their wives and children who are taken captive and used as slaves.

He was speaking of Christianity as an anthropomological system that promotes survival by passing memetic behaviors through generations. That would require that Christianity be selfish, which is the opposite of what Christianity teaches.

No he was talking about the unifying cultural effect of religion in general.

edog24
01-13-2012, 03:17 PM
IMO, attributing his success to divine intervention belittles his talent and athletic ability. Personally, I don't believe there is divine intervention going on in a silly football game in the grand scheme of things. It always cracks me up at the beginning of a NASCAR race that they pray and hope for God to watch over the racetrack and the drivers. Like God has nothing else better to do?

That being said, has religion and faith caused Tebow to rise up and become extraordinary both on the field and off? Yes.

BroncoBeavis
01-13-2012, 03:18 PM
Please. If that were the case, Christianity (or something generally like it) would have sprung up all over the world organically. But that didn't happen. It took violent conquest and conversion to make Christianity what it is today. So if the "rocks cry out" they do so with pathetically weak voices apparently.

You won't find a faith that spread more organically than Christianity. Most of the original church leaders were Martyred (see Martyr, Justin :) )

They had nothing to gain but the spread of their faith and death. It wasn't until centuries later, when power structures had to co-opt the name of Christ in order to maintain hold against the faith growing IN SPITE of them, that the abuses you hear about started to happen.

And like I said in a previous post... that was all about power and had nothing to do with Christ.

epicSocialism4tw
01-13-2012, 03:18 PM
I see your point, but it doesnt really relate to war. Our species has experienced the pain of war over and over, but have we learned from it, have we allowed the pain and horror to guide us away from it? No, obviously not.

So should god intervene in an aspect of humanity that is ignoring their natural response to pain, or in a recreational pastime that allows people to enjoy life?

War is inevitable because the pain experienced by war is not genetic. One generation only passes the echoes of that pain on to their offspring. They dont pass the pain itself. Only a shadow of the real thing can be passed on, and it takes the right genetic conditions to prime an individual to receive it and learn from it in a way that creates in that individual a willingness to avoid it.

But then again, there have been many times where people have had to resort to war to save themselves from an oppressor who would kill them.

But the pain of war is only enough to spur some people to escape it because they want to live in the short term, not necessarily to avoid it in the future.

Agamemnon
01-13-2012, 03:21 PM
Christianity did spring up organically. It was put down by the Romans until Constantine.

Wow, it's like talking to a wall.

It sprang up in one place. If "the rocks cry out" and the "truth" isn't obscured like you claim, many belief systems like Christianity would have sprung up around the world. That didn't happen. In Asia, many religions sprung up, none like Christianity. In the Americas, again nothing. In Africa, the tribes continued to believe in their tribal shamanism. All over the world, people had their own truths, altogether different from what you claim to be so obvious.

All those people chose door number two, and are having their private bits eaten by rats right now...because the "truth" is hidden behind a hokey door with a big #1 on it.

Bronco Yoda
01-13-2012, 03:22 PM
Christianity is not something that is advantageous for survival.

So, are you saying coping mechanisms aren't advantageous?

BroncoBeavis
01-13-2012, 03:26 PM
Wow, it's like talking to a wall.

It sprang up in one place. If "the rocks cry out" and the "truth" isn't obscured like you claim, many belief systems like Christianity would have sprung up around the world.

I think you're overliteralizing the whole 'rocks cry out' thing. I think it's a reference to creation itself being one of God's testaments. Not that the rocks themselves are proselytising the earth.

Agamemnon
01-13-2012, 03:31 PM
You won't find a faith that spread more organically than Christianity. Most of the original church leaders were Martyred (see Martyr, Justin :) )

They had nothing to gain but the spread of their faith and death. It wasn't until centuries later, when power structures had to co-opt the name of Christ in order to maintain hold against the faith growing IN SPITE of them, that the abuses you hear about started to happen.

And like I said in a previous post... that was all about power and had nothing to do with Christ.

Not my point. If "the rocks cry out" the beliefs of Christianity would be universal all over the world. But the rocks don't cry out. Or if they do it isn't Christian dogma they are crying. That much is obvious.

And really Christians need to start owning the criminal means by which their religion was originally spread. It's just so disingenuous to do otherwise. If not for all that violence and bloodshed which you claim was not about God, Christianity would've never moved beyond the Mediterranean. Roman aggression followed by medieval European aggression spread your religion at the cost of many pagan lives. So the Christian West exists solely because of war and violence. Period.

(Mind you, I'm very aware that Christ taught pacifism. Just be aware that pacifism is not how so much of the world became Christian.)

Agamemnon
01-13-2012, 03:33 PM
I think you're overliteralizing the whole 'rocks cry out' thing. I think it's a reference to creation itself being one of God's testaments. Not that the rocks themselves are proselytising the earth.

I'm simply responding to Llama's claim that the results of the two choices available within the context of our "free will" aren't obscured.

myMind
01-13-2012, 03:34 PM
War is inevitable because the pain experienced by war is not genetic. One generation only passes the echoes of that pain on to their offspring. They dont pass the pain itself. Only a shadow of the real thing can be passed on, and it takes the right genetic conditions to prime an individual to receive it and learn from it in a way that creates in that individual a willingness to avoid it.

But then again, there have been many times where people have had to resort to war to save themselves from an oppressor who would kill them.

But the pain of war is only enough to spur some people to escape it because they want to live in the short term, not necessarily to avoid it in the future.

Sadly you are right that the pain of war mainly effects those who fight, and probably does not get passed genetically from generation to generation. It does however permeate the society, it becomes a cultural experience that never really goes away. Although later generations may not feel the sharpness of the horrors committed, the resonance remains.

I guess my point is just that I feel it would make more sense for a god to intervene in an aspect of humanity that repeats a cycle of pain, as appossed to an ultimatley meanignless past-time.

I do believe that everything in life is balanced though, so it is possible that all the bad things that happen, happen for a reason. There just seems to be a whole lot more bad than good these days. Probably why Tebow is such a lightningrod of attention.

Agamemnon
01-13-2012, 03:35 PM
I've heard this time and time again. I've yet to hear a coherent portrayal of Jesus Christ as an agent of social control. If the world lived to his standards, power structures would topple themselves.

I would hope that you are aware that Jesus and the religion that sprung up after him called Christianity are two very different things.

jsco70
01-13-2012, 03:37 PM
Didn't read all the posts so this may have been stated. Tebow himself explained how his faith helps him, and that is by giving him inner peace regardless of circumstances. A good scripture of reference for those who are interested is Isaiah 26:3.

BroncoBeavis
01-13-2012, 03:38 PM
Not my point. If "the rocks cry out" the beliefs of Christianity would be universal all over the world. But the rocks don't cry out. Or if they do it isn't Christian dogma they are crying. That much is obvious.

And really Christians need to start owning the criminal means by which their religion was originally spread. It's just so disingenuous to do otherwise. If not for all that violence and bloodshed which you claim was not about God, Christianity would've never moved beyond the Mediterranean. Roman aggression followed by medieval European aggression spread your religion at the cost of many pagan lives. So the Christian West exists solely because of war and violence. Period.

(Mind you, I'm very aware that Christ taught pacifism. Just be aware that pacifism is not how so much of the world became Christian.)

That doesn't make any sense. Should Atheists 'own' the actions of Stalin or Mao? Many Christians, Jews, and others were killed or 'indoctrinated' in the name of Atheism. Should all Atheists be brought to account for that?

Rolandftw
01-13-2012, 03:39 PM
Another thread about G-d and Tebow? Unexpected and totally awesome!

Rohirrim
01-13-2012, 03:39 PM
I don't get how people consider Tebow a "true" Christian anyway. Jesus said the only way to god is through him. He built his church upon the rock, Peter. Peter was the first pope of the Catholic Church. Ergo, anybody who is not a Catholic, is not a true Christian, but an apostate, and not recognized by god.

BroncoBeavis
01-13-2012, 03:39 PM
I would hope that you are aware that Jesus and the religion that sprung up after him called Christianity are two very different things.

Of course. Mankind corrupts.

Rohirrim
01-13-2012, 03:48 PM
That's another thing I don't understand. Tebow and his dad go to the Phillipines to spread the word about Christ. Right?

The Phillipines is 86% Catholic. So, what's up with that?

BroncoBeavis
01-13-2012, 03:53 PM
That's another thing I don't understand. Tebow and his dad go to the Phillipines to spread the word about Christ. Right?

The Phillipines is 86% Catholic. So, what's up with that?

Because they are Catholic. :)

In all seriousness though, in a lot of those countries the religious definitions are pretty much grain of salt type stuff. People will describe themselves as belonging to some formal denomination without even really understanding what that is or what it means.

And then I know some missionaries who've done work in the South Pacific. Supposedly the Presbyterian Church in that country has something like a "90%" foothold there, but if you go talk to the people in the villages, they don't have any clue who Jesus was in any meaningful sense.

Maybe it's just that the churches take credit for the population areas they serve even though they don't have any relationship with most of the people there. I'm not sure how that part works.

ant1999e
01-13-2012, 03:57 PM
Does God help Tebow play football? No. But I believe that God rewards righteous individuals who choose to live a certain way.

Agamemnon
01-13-2012, 04:02 PM
That doesn't make any sense. Should Atheists 'own' the actions of Stalin or Mao? Many Christians, Jews, and others were killed or 'indoctrinated' in the name of Atheism. Should all Atheists be brought to account for that?

I wasn't saying they should be "brought to account" for anything, merely that they need to stop distancing themselves from the very means by which their world came about. You live in a society where Christian morality and viewpoints are the norm, because others committed horrible acts of murder and conquest to propagate the early form of your religion. That's just reality.

Agamemnon
01-13-2012, 04:03 PM
That's another thing I don't understand. Tebow and his dad go to the Phillipines to spread the word about Christ. Right?

The Phillipines is 86% Catholic. So, what's up with that?

Catholics aren't really Christians in the eyes of evangelical Christians.

Agamemnon
01-13-2012, 04:08 PM
I don't get how people consider Tebow a "true" Christian anyway. Jesus said the only way to god is through him. He built his church upon the rock, Peter. Peter was the first pope of the Catholic Church. Ergo, anybody who is not a Catholic, is not a true Christian, but an apostate, and not recognized by god.

I really hope you aren't serious. Peter was no more the first pope of the Catholic Church, than you are the first president of the United States of America. That's a myth with absolutely no basis in reality.

Jay3
01-13-2012, 04:09 PM
Come on Jay3...enough with parsing words. You know what the 'spirit' of the poll implies here.

Is God playing favorites. Is Tebow winning with direct help from the Almighty.

Yes....or....No..... there is no try here. :P

I'm not parsing words. Believe it or not, the poll doesn't quite capture all the ways of looking at it.

mustangtoby
01-13-2012, 04:10 PM
I don't believe in god, but I do believe Tebows belief helps him win, and for that I'm very grateful.

Jay3
01-13-2012, 04:13 PM
That's another thing I don't understand. Tebow and his dad go to the Phillipines to spread the word about Christ. Right?

The Phillipines is 86% Catholic. So, what's up with that?

First of all, there are many unreached areas worldwide, nothwithstanding those demographic estimates. Second of all, they believe we are commanded to meet needs and do go works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. Their ministry has always been one that combined actual meeting of needs with the gospel -- the orphanage was there because orphaned kids are HUGE problem in the third world. ( Kids are sired everywhere and abandoned). You may have heard the next initiative is a hospital.

Some men are called to serve here. Some men feel the call to serve as missionaries, which by definition means going somewhere else where a need has been identified.

He's not there now. He wasn't even there most of his life. It's just the place his ministry had the most significant foreign tie with, and it was where they were when Tim was born.

strafen
01-13-2012, 04:15 PM
LONG LOST NOSTRADAMUS TEXT PREDICTS THAT TIM TEBOW WILL WIN A SUPER BOWL !!!!!!!!!

<TABLE class="sites-layout-name-one-column sites-layout-hbox" cellSpacing=0 xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"><TBODY><TR><TD class="sites-layout-tile sites-tile-name-content-1">[/URL]Nostradamus predicted a Tim Tebow Super Bowl Victory!
Long lost text of Nostradamus has recently been unearthed. Lo and behold, a few of them seem to be referring to Tim Tebow. Take a look at these two quatrains which Nostradamus wrote in Old French sometime in the mid-1500s:



The Prophecies; 11.1 412

Le cheval jeune, le vieux surmontera,

Et les onze contens seront unis ensemble,

En caige de fer le grande fera treisner,

Entree l’coupole du palais, sera prins l’or.



TRANSLATION:

LINE 1: HE YOUNG HORSE SHALL OVERCOME THE OLDER,

LINE 2: AND ELEVEN PARTICIPANTS WILL UNITE TOGETHER,

LINE 3: IN ARMOR OF STEEL THEY WILL MAKE THE GREAT ASSAULT,

LINE 4: ENTERING THE DOME, THEY WILL SEIZE THE GOLD.



INTERPRETATION:

LINE 1: Tebow plays for the Denver Broncos. The older may refer to John Elway

LINE 2: There are 11 players on each side of the football field

LINE 3: Football helmets and pads are often called “armor”

LINE 4: Both this year’s and next year’s Super Bowl is played in a dome!



The Prophecies; 11.1 417

Un leader de lumière (https://sites.google.com/site/sites/)[URL="http://translate.google.com/?tr=t&hl=en"]apprendre son fort,

la levée des hommes dans sa fraternité

Qui onc ne feut si gentillesse,

Sceptiques durance les tiendra 'agenouillent comme lui.



TRANSLATION:

LINE 1: A LEADER OF LIGHT WILL LEARN OF HIS STRENGTH,

LINE 2: LIFTING THE MEN IN HIS BROTHERHOOD,

LINE 3: NEVER WAS THERE ONE FILLED WITH SUCH KINDNESS,

LINE 4: DOUBTERS THAT FOR LONG THEY SHALL KNEEL LIKE HIM.



INTERPRETATION:

LINE 1: Tim Tebow is often referred to as a leader

LINE 2: Many in his team call Tebow inspirational

LINE 3: Tebow is considered one of the kindest people on Earth

LINE 4: He has many doubters, and people everywhere are “Tebowing”



</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Bronco Yoda
01-13-2012, 04:16 PM
Tebow ALERT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Tebow Time: 2011 in Review is coming up shortly on the NFL Network.

Bronco Yoda
01-13-2012, 04:26 PM
LONG LOST NOSTRADAMUS TEXT PREDICTS THAT TIM TEBOW WILL WIN A SUPER BOWL !!!!!!!!!

<TABLE class="sites-layout-name-one-column sites-layout-hbox" cellSpacing=0 xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"><TBODY><TR><TD class="sites-layout-tile sites-tile-name-content-1">[/URL]Nostradamus predicted a Tim Tebow Super Bowl Victory!
Long lost text of Nostradamus has recently been unearthed. Lo and behold, a few of them seem to be referring to Tim Tebow. Take a look at these two quatrains which Nostradamus wrote in Old French sometime in the mid-1500s:



The Prophecies; 11.1 412

Le cheval jeune, le vieux surmontera,

Et les onze contens seront unis ensemble,

En caige de fer le grande fera treisner,

Entree l’coupole du palais, sera prins l’or.



TRANSLATION:

LINE 1: HE YOUNG HORSE SHALL OVERCOME THE OLDER,

LINE 2: AND ELEVEN PARTICIPANTS WILL UNITE TOGETHER,

LINE 3: IN ARMOR OF STEEL THEY WILL MAKE THE GREAT ASSAULT,

LINE 4: ENTERING THE DOME, THEY WILL SEIZE THE GOLD.



INTERPRETATION:

LINE 1: Tebow plays for the Denver Broncos. The older may refer to John Elway

LINE 2: There are 11 players on each side of the football field

LINE 3: Football helmets and pads are often called “armor”

LINE 4: Both this year’s and next year’s Super Bowl is played in a dome!



The Prophecies; 11.1 417

Un leader de lumière (https://sites.google.com/site/sites/)[URL="http://translate.google.com/?tr=t&hl=en"]apprendre son fort,

la levée des hommes dans sa fraternité

Qui onc ne feut si gentillesse,

Sceptiques durance les tiendra 'agenouillent comme lui.



TRANSLATION:

LINE 1: A LEADER OF LIGHT WILL LEARN OF HIS STRENGTH,

LINE 2: LIFTING THE MEN IN HIS BROTHERHOOD,

LINE 3: NEVER WAS THERE ONE FILLED WITH SUCH KINDNESS,

LINE 4: DOUBTERS THAT FOR LONG THEY SHALL KNEEL LIKE HIM.



INTERPRETATION:

LINE 1: Tim Tebow is often referred to as a leader

LINE 2: Many in his team call Tebow inspirational

LINE 3: Tebow is considered one of the kindest people on Earth

LINE 4: He has many doubters, and people everywhere are “Tebowing”



</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>


You sir get a rep for that little diddy.......ummm, you did vote, right?

Rohirrim
01-13-2012, 04:32 PM
LONG LOST NOSTRADAMUS TEXT PREDICTS THAT TIM TEBOW WILL WIN A SUPER BOWL !!!!!!!!!

<TABLE class="sites-layout-name-one-column sites-layout-hbox" cellSpacing=0 xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"><TBODY><TR><TD class="sites-layout-tile sites-tile-name-content-1">[/URL]Nostradamus predicted a Tim Tebow Super Bowl Victory!
Long lost text of Nostradamus has recently been unearthed. Lo and behold, a few of them seem to be referring to Tim Tebow. Take a look at these two quatrains which Nostradamus wrote in Old French sometime in the mid-1500s:



The Prophecies; 11.1 412

Le cheval jeune, le vieux surmontera,

Et les onze contens seront unis ensemble,

En caige de fer le grande fera treisner,

Entree l’coupole du palais, sera prins l’or.



TRANSLATION:

LINE 1: HE YOUNG HORSE SHALL OVERCOME THE OLDER,

LINE 2: AND ELEVEN PARTICIPANTS WILL UNITE TOGETHER,

LINE 3: IN ARMOR OF STEEL THEY WILL MAKE THE GREAT ASSAULT,

LINE 4: ENTERING THE DOME, THEY WILL SEIZE THE GOLD.



INTERPRETATION:

LINE 1: Tebow plays for the Denver Broncos. The older may refer to John Elway

LINE 2: There are 11 players on each side of the football field

LINE 3: Football helmets and pads are often called “armor”

LINE 4: Both this year’s and next year’s Super Bowl is played in a dome!



The Prophecies; 11.1 417

Un leader de lumière (https://sites.google.com/site/sites/)[URL="http://translate.google.com/?tr=t&hl=en"]apprendre son fort,

la levée des hommes dans sa fraternité

Qui onc ne feut si gentillesse,

Sceptiques durance les tiendra 'agenouillent comme lui.



TRANSLATION:

LINE 1: A LEADER OF LIGHT WILL LEARN OF HIS STRENGTH,

LINE 2: LIFTING THE MEN IN HIS BROTHERHOOD,

LINE 3: NEVER WAS THERE ONE FILLED WITH SUCH KINDNESS,

LINE 4: DOUBTERS THAT FOR LONG THEY SHALL KNEEL LIKE HIM.



INTERPRETATION:

LINE 1: Tim Tebow is often referred to as a leader

LINE 2: Many in his team call Tebow inspirational

LINE 3: Tebow is considered one of the kindest people on Earth



LINE 4: He has many doubters, and people everywhere are “Tebowing”



</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Well that sells it for me. I'm in. :puff:

Rohirrim
01-13-2012, 04:37 PM
I really hope you aren't serious. Peter was no more the first pope of the Catholic Church, than you are the first president of the United States of America. That's a myth with absolutely no basis in reality.

The Catholics say he was, the Protestants say he wasn't. Both have vested interests. Who to believe?

BroncoBeavis
01-13-2012, 04:45 PM
I wasn't saying they should be "brought to account" for anything, merely that they need to stop distancing themselves from the very means by which their world came about. You live in a society where Christian morality and viewpoints are the norm, because others committed horrible acts of murder and conquest to propagate the early form of your religion. That's just reality.

You need to separate the power from ideology. If you think any wars were fought over sincere Christian conviction, I think you need to take another look.

People seeking power will put whatever veneer is most convenient over their actions. Whether that be Christianity, Atheism, Islam, Secular Democracy... doesn't matter.

Bronco Yoda
01-13-2012, 04:56 PM
The ossuary box of St. Peter in (gasp!!!!)Jerusalem . http://www.jesusdynasty.com/blog/2007/04/03/has-the-ossuary-of-simon-peter-aka-simeon-son-of-jonah-been-found/

BroncoBeavis
01-13-2012, 05:07 PM
The ossuary box of St. Peter in (gasp!!!!)Jerusalem . http://www.jesusdynasty.com/blog/2007/04/03/has-the-ossuary-of-simon-peter-aka-simeon-son-of-jonah-been-found/

Jesus dynasty? Is that what Jhizz was talking about? He never told me he had JC in mind for HC. That would change everything. :)

The Moops
01-13-2012, 07:14 PM
No. But Tebow believes his faith gives him the abilty to achieve anything, even the impossible. It's all about believing in himself, his teammates, coaches and the fans.

pikkiwoki
01-13-2012, 08:02 PM
Of course God used his cool powers to make Tebow win a football game. We all know Tebow is a running back who can't throw and the Broncos can never win with him at QB. God had to have intervened.

Meanwhile, elsewhere in the world we have war, drought, famine, and children are sold as slaves, raped, and murdered. Maybe G-d is too busy downloading Tebow highlights!

Bronco Yoda
01-13-2012, 08:24 PM
Where is TJ in all this hot mess?

Do I have to add RP to the title? Don't make me do it Isaac.

Mile High Mojoe
01-13-2012, 08:29 PM
Shouldn't this topic be moved to the War, Religion and Politics Thread Forum? Who's the mod tonight? Just sayin...

Bronco Yoda
01-13-2012, 08:41 PM
Now don't be that way Mojo. Just make your vote and quit yo crying.

R8R H8R
01-13-2012, 08:55 PM
I believe what Tebow himself believes, and that is "that God has a plan for me and football is the platform."

That is all.

Crow
01-14-2012, 10:04 PM
There are 10 people here who seriously need to be medicated and removed from society for some inpatient treatment.

extralife
01-14-2012, 11:21 PM
it would be nice if america could collectively stop talking about tim tebow as a symbol or an icon or a referendum and just leave it to tim tebow as 1) a football player, and 2) a person. hopefully the rest of the nonsense stops.

epicSocialism4tw
01-14-2012, 11:27 PM
it would be nice if america could collectively stop talking about tim tebow as a symbol or an icon or a referendum and just leave it to tim tebow as 1) a football player, and 2) a person. hopefully the rest of the nonsense stops.

It will continue.

The public conversation about religion is fantastic.

There are a lot of uneducated people out there about religion (as the poll shows). Education is good.

Crow
01-14-2012, 11:34 PM
Education and religion just don't go hand in hand. That would be a good thing, except that education and americans don't exactly go hand in hand either.

Agamemnon
01-14-2012, 11:40 PM
The Catholics say he was, the Protestants say he wasn't. Both have vested interests. Who to believe?

The papacy didn't come into existence until several centuries after Peter's death. It's not a matter of believing anyone.

extralife
01-15-2012, 12:12 AM
It will continue.

The public conversation about religion is fantastic.

There are a lot of uneducated people out there about religion (as the poll shows). Education is good.

you have a funny definition of education.