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View Full Version : Tim Tebow - Sport Science - Throwing Motion


Bronco Rob
12-31-2011, 01:53 AM
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8')

Doggcow
12-31-2011, 02:10 AM
It's horrible. But it's cool with me. He needs to focus more on reading defenses IMO.

He will never throw like Aaron Rodgers. Aaron Rodgers will never shed linebackers like Tim Tebow.

Give and take.

PRBronco
12-31-2011, 02:19 AM
Cool, I wish they would factor in the "running for his life" component of our passing game though :S

Bronco Rob
12-31-2011, 02:27 AM
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:pimp:

KO5K
12-31-2011, 03:29 AM
People have largely dropped the 'throwing motion' argument nowadays.

Off the top of my head, the ball has only been stripped twice when he was winding up in his career so far (Lions, Bills), but then every QB has had the ball stripped so it's difficult to say that his throwing motion is leading to turnovers.

People said DBs would react quicker but that hasn't really been the case either, his interception rate even with the Bills game is probably as good if not better than most other young QBs.

His low completion % also appears to be more down to his inaccuracy than his motion. It would be nice if he could tighten it up, but I don't think his career rests on his ability to do so.

But if he could fix his footwork, I think it would do wonders for his passing game.

Jay3
12-31-2011, 04:28 AM
The arm motion itself would not be a problem. The bigger problem right now is the footwork at the back of drops. He does not get set in a "loaded and cocked" position, ready to fire instantly if the route is coming open. He likes to stand relaxed, drift, and look around a while.

Broncbow
12-31-2011, 04:35 AM
His low completion % also appears to be more down to his inaccuracy than his motion.

Yeah whatever, nothing to do with scheme and receivers being locked up eh? Tebow has a phenomenal completion percentage in college, better than Peyton Manning. Inaccuracy argument is lame IMO. Tebow has no qualms about throwing the ball away, considering the predictable scheme making it hard on our receivers to get open. You can;t hold that against him.

McDman
12-31-2011, 06:43 AM
Yeah whatever, nothing to do with scheme and receivers being locked up eh? Tebow has a phenomenal completion percentage in college, better than Peyton Manning. Inaccuracy argument is lame IMO. Tebow has no qualms about throwing the ball away, considering the predictable scheme making it hard on our receivers to get open. You can;t hold that against him.

Yeah, that scheme definitely makes him inaccurate...

Bronco_Beerslug
12-31-2011, 08:04 AM
People have largely dropped the 'throwing motion' argument nowadays.
It's low and long and that will catch up to QBs in the pocket in the NFL.
WRs run to seams, holes in the defense and a QB with a quick release will hit his receivers in those openings, more often than one that has a slow release, resulting in more 1st downs, continuing more drives.

Dr. Broncenstein
12-31-2011, 08:05 AM
Ball goes in, ball goes out... can't explain that.

KO5K
12-31-2011, 08:12 AM
It's low and long and that will catch up to QBs in the pocket in the NFL.
WRs run to seams, holes in the defense and a QB with a quick release will hit his receivers in those openings, more often than one that has a slow release, resulting in more 1st downs, continuing more drives.

It's difficult to say.

Tebow isn't hitting those throws due to his struggles to read a defense/not having the confidence to throw the ball.

As he gets more experience and starts to throw to those openings, then we can judge whether the throwing motion has an effect.

My guess is a 0.2 second difference won't.

strafen
12-31-2011, 08:27 AM
I think the long throwing motion can affect the short passing routes. That's why you see Tim throwing long balls downfield more often.
He can compensate by putting a little more muscle into his throws, which can result into missing his targets in the short passing game...

Flex Gunmetal
12-31-2011, 08:33 AM
Ball goes in, ball goes out... can't explain that.

lmao

Vine
12-31-2011, 08:36 AM
So Tebow's throwing motion is .2 of a second longer than the average NFL qb. Two tenths of one second.

BIG ****ING DEAL!

So, this throwing motion that all of his skeptics point out to might result in, maybe, one extra sack per season, and maybe 3 or 4 extra qb hurries.

BIG ****ING DEAL!

enjolras
12-31-2011, 08:36 AM
I think the long throwing motion can affect the short passing routes. That's why you see Tim throwing long balls downfield more often.
He can compensate by putting a little more muscle into his throws, which can result into missing his targets in the short passing game...

I think you're 100% right, although I don't think it's something you can compensate for. It's not necessarily the release, but the footwork (which is absolutely lumbering) that is a very big problem right now. You look at Drew Brees on those short slants. It's 3 steps, set, and fire. By the time Tim is 3 steps into his drop any hope of getting the pass off is generally gone.

Dagmar
12-31-2011, 09:04 AM
But will he shake hands with ORTON?

We need to know dragster! WE NEED TO KNOW.

strafen
12-31-2011, 09:09 AM
So Tebow's throwing motion is .2 of a second longer than the average NFL qb. Two tenths of one second.

BIG ****ING DEAL!

So, this throwing motion that all of his skeptics point out to might result in, maybe, one extra sack per season, and maybe 3 or 4 extra qb hurries.

BIG ****ING DEAL!Did you read how the extra time is allowing the defenders that much time in getting to the QB?
I think that's the relevant point of the story...

strafen
12-31-2011, 09:40 AM
I think you're 100% right, although I don't think it's something you can compensate for. It's not necessarily the release, but the footwork (which is absolutely lumbering) that is a very big problem right now. You look at Drew Brees on those short slants. It's 3 steps, set, and fire. By the time Tim is 3 steps into his drop any hope of getting the pass off is generally gone.

We should all be hopeful that Tim working with Elway in the off-season can correct most of his throing flaws.
But again, I saw a documentary on ESPN as Tim prepared for his private workouts prior to the draft where he worked hard on thos issues, and he's now back to where he was two years ago.
It's a tough habit to break. Muscle memory is tough

Spider
12-31-2011, 09:55 AM
So Tebow's throwing motion is .2 of a second longer than the average NFL qb. Two tenths of one second.

BIG ****ING DEAL!

So, this throwing motion that all of his skeptics point out to might result in, maybe, one extra sack per season, and maybe 3 or 4 extra qb hurries.

BIG ****ING DEAL!

you gonna be ok ?

errand
12-31-2011, 09:57 AM
So Tebow's throwing motion is .2 of a second longer than the average NFL qb. Two tenths of one second.

BIG ****ING DEAL!

[B]sure, just as there's no difference between a guy with 4.2 and 4.4 speed right? Like Louie Kelcher said, "If I gotta chase a guy for 40 yards I ain't gonna catch him anyways"

That .2 seconds can mean the difference between hitting a guy in stride or throwing it behind him....and since only 3 things can happen when you throw the ball, and two of them aren't good for the QB, the odds are those that get the ball out faster and quicker will complete the pass.

So, this throwing motion that all of his skeptics point out to might result in, maybe, one extra sack per season, and maybe 3 or 4 extra qb hurries.

BIG ****ING DEAL!

OK, one sack might mean the difference in winning a game...taking your kicker outta FG range, costing you a turnover if he fumbles while being sacked....one play can decide a game in the NFL. As for the 3-4 extra hurries...if an inaccurate Qb is being made to throw the ball before he wants to, well logic dictates that his chances of completing the pass are decreased, wouldn't you agree?...and 3-4 extra hurries could turn into game changing/losing plays via turnovers or less yardage gain to put K or team in position to score




in bold

strafen
12-31-2011, 10:03 AM
in boldFinally a post from you that makes sense! :thumbs:

errand
12-31-2011, 10:14 AM
We should all be hopeful that Tim working with Elway in the off-season can correct most of his throing flaws.
But again, I saw a documentary on ESPN as Tim prepared for his private workouts prior to the draft where he worked hard on thos issues, and he's now back to where he was two years ago.
It's a tough habit to break. Muscle memory is tough


And yet we had clowns in here saying practice (or better yet, doing well in practices) doesn't matter.......doing well in practice not only builds his confidence up....it builds the confidence of his coaches up to where they allow him more freedom to throw more passes, it also boosts his team mates confidence in that they'll believe he'll put the ball where it needs to be so they can make the catch.

Michael Irvin once said that several times he wouldn't even see the ball coming, and just put his hands up, and Troy Aikman put the ball perfectly in the right spot so that he could make the catch. That bond is built by performing well in practices, so come game time that WR knows Tim will deliver the ball perfectly, and I just have to do my part and catch it.

I thought he made some positive strides in his development after Vikings game...but as teams start to figure him and the Broncos O out, his success is gonna decrease unless he starts to execute and perform better.

sure some of it is playcalling, but perhaps they're doing the best they can do with Tim's limitations...

sure, he's surrounded by young unproven talent, and they have dropped some catchable balls....but they have a young unproven talent throwing to them as well.....and he's missed some wide open guys as well.

The QB touches the ball on virtually every offensive play, and his development is huge in deciding if your team will win games and titles. I know the kid will put in the work.If you told him he had to throw it right handed he'd work on it....but will he be able to win enough games to earn precious time to develop in the win now mentality of today's NFL?

Mogulseeker
12-31-2011, 10:18 AM
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Broncbow
12-31-2011, 10:19 AM
the odds are those that get the ball out faster and quicker will complete the pass...

perhaps their doing the best they can do with Tim's limitations...

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Bronx33
12-31-2011, 10:20 AM
ya all think too much

errand
12-31-2011, 10:22 AM
Finally a post from you that makes sense! :thumbs:

...or did you finally open your narrow mind? j/k :giggle:

errand
12-31-2011, 10:23 AM
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cute....so you're claiming tim has no limitations when it comes to throwing the ball?

Many, many pass plays are based on timing....and I'm just spit-balling here, but wouldn't it make sense that a guy throwing the ball .2 seconds faster has a better chance to complete the pass?


See here is the WR [] headed this direction >

..... and this is the ball X

timed perfectly, the ball meets WR [X]> like this....

throw it .2 seconds later, and it's X[]>

why this logic eludes you is beyond me.

Slightly Soiled
12-31-2011, 10:35 AM
cute....so you're claiming tim has no limitations when it comes to throwing the ball?

Many, many pass plays are based on timing....and I'm just spit-balling here, but wouldn't it make sense that a guy throwing the ball .2 seconds faster has a better chance to complete the pass?


See here is the WR [] headed this direction >

..... and this is the ball X

timed perfectly, the ball meets WR [X]> like this....

throw it .2 seconds later, and it's X[]>

why this logic eludes you is beyond me.

So your saying we need slower recievers?


.02 secs longer in the throwing motion is just 1 of many variables that go into timing routs. ie: Ball Speed, Reciever Speed and how quickly the QB makes the decision to throw. Most of these come with reps as you get on the same page as your teamates. Tebow may take more time and need more reps but it can and I believe will be done.

BTW I am not claiming anyone here still says this can't be done.

errand
12-31-2011, 10:40 AM
Oh, and on a side note...I'm not bitching about his motion, just trying to shed some perspective on why cutting time off of it might be important to his coaching staff.

My main problem with him is his inaccuracy, and pocket presence...he's still not where I think he should be. He will need time to develop, but will he win enough to earn himself more time to do so?

errand
12-31-2011, 10:42 AM
So your saying we need slower recievers?

I don't have the answers to solve his problem...again just trying to point out why getting the ball out faster might be important to those that make valued decisions on his NFL career.

Play2win
12-31-2011, 10:49 AM
Longer patterns and routes are going to require stronger pass-pro, anyway (see: patriots), thats when Tebow's motion really shows up. But, it looks like they pick their times to make those throws. They set it up. For the most part, the other throws-- 5-20 yard throws, he seems to have a somewhat more normal delivery. The motion only sticks out like a sour thumb on those longer routes, or when he scrambles and does a clear out for himself.

Slightly Soiled
12-31-2011, 10:49 AM
I don't have the answers to solve his problem...again just trying to point out why getting the ball out faster might be important to those that make valued decisions on his NFL career.

I know it was an attempt at humor.

GreatBronco16
12-31-2011, 10:49 AM
We should all be hopeful that Tim working with Elway in the off-season can correct most of his throing flaws.



Elway had a very fast release, and was according to his percentages, pretty inaccurate. So no, I don't think one inaccurate passer is going to help another inaccurate passer. Now footwook and reading the defense, that is something I hope Elway works with Tim on.

Throwing flaws...:giggle: Give me a break.

errand
12-31-2011, 10:55 AM
So your saying we need slower recievers?


.02 secs longer in the throwing motion is just 1 of many variables that go into timing routs. ie: Ball Speed, Reciever Speed and how quickly the QB makes the decision to throw. Most of these come with reps as you get on the same page as your teamates. Tebow may take more time and need more reps but it can and I believe will be done.

BTW I am not claiming anyone here still says this can't be done.

Ok, i'll play your silly game....

Are you saying we need faster WR's or for Tim to make up his mind faster?

Eddie Royal has 4.29 speed....other than Chris Johnson, not sure if faster is possible.

kidding aside... I understand what you're trying to say.

I'm sure as Tim's pocket awareness and comfort in the pocket develops, and his WR's run crisper routes and generate separation, we should see better performance out of the kids.....

errand
12-31-2011, 10:57 AM
I know it was an attempt at humor.

I know...just didn't want the Tebowites to come in here with their "Blasphemy" takes. they kind of take the fun outta posting on here sometimes....

Play2win
12-31-2011, 10:59 AM
Elway had a very fast release, and was according to his percentages, pretty inaccurate. So no, I don't think one inaccurate passer is going to help another inaccurate passer. Now footwook and reading the defense, that is something I hope Elway works with Tim on.

Throwing flaws...:giggle: Give me a break.

Elway was supposed to have some of the best footwork coming out of college. I also remember Steve Deberg saying he had never see anyone with the torso twist and pure speed and power through the zone that Elway had when delivering a ball.

Broncbow
12-31-2011, 11:00 AM
cute....so you're claiming tim has no limitations when it comes to throwing the ball?

Many, many pass plays are based on timing....and I'm just spit-balling here, but wouldn't it make sense that a guy throwing the ball .2 seconds faster has a better chance to complete the pass?

Not if he attempts the pass .2 seconds sooner. A QB's brain has the muscle memory equated. Brain speed has more to do with it than motion of his arm speed.

Tebow having had an elite completion percentage in college blows your argument to Smithereens.

errand
12-31-2011, 11:35 AM
Not if he attempts the pass .2 seconds sooner. A QB's brain has the muscle memory equated. Brain speed has more to do with it than motion of his arm speed.

Tebow having had an elite completion percentage in college blows your argument to Smithereens.

...sure...just as his below 50% in the pros blows your argument to kingdom come.

Perhaps I dunno, maybe pro players are better than those he faced in college? Or maybe he's like alot of other Heisman trophy winning QB's...great in college and above average to worthless in the pros?

teknic
12-31-2011, 11:52 AM
cute....so you're claiming tim has no limitations when it comes to throwing the ball?

Many, many pass plays are based on timing....and I'm just spit-balling here, but wouldn't it make sense that a guy throwing the ball .2 seconds faster has a better chance to complete the pass?


See here is the WR [] headed this direction >

..... and this is the ball X

timed perfectly, the ball meets WR [X]> like this....

throw it .2 seconds later, and it's X[]>

why this logic eludes you is beyond me.

Fail logic is fail.

Tebow has thrown the ball all of his life with that same motion. Chances are that he has a good understanding of where he needs to aim the pass to hit the receiver. The windup has ZERO effect on his accuracy after the ball leaves his hand.

You're assuming that Tebow would be throwing the ball to the same spot as a QB with a conventional release (hence your logic that the ball will be slow getting there), but since Tebow has had the same motion for his entire football career, he can just aim the pass to the spot where the receiver would be 0.2s (or however long) later naturally.

How the pass leaves his hand, and where he is aiming when the ball leaves has an effect on his accuracy. The windup does not.

Stop posting garbage.

teknic
12-31-2011, 11:55 AM
...sure...just as his below 50% in the pros blows your argument to kingdom come.

Perhaps I dunno, maybe pro players are better than those he faced in college? Or maybe he's like alot of other Heisman trophy winning QB's...great in college and above average to worthless in the pros?

And the fact that Tebow hasn't even played one full season in the NFL yet destroys all of the credibility of your complaints.

Take a look at the majority of "elite" QBs early in their careers. Tebow actually compares quite favorably. I'm not saying that he'll go on to become an elite QB, but because he has passed for under 50% early in his career doesn't discount it either.

enjolras
12-31-2011, 12:02 PM
And the fact that Tebow hasn't even played one full season in the NFL yet destroys all of the credibility of your complaints.

Take a look at the majority of "elite" QBs early in their careers. Tebow actually compares quite favorably. I'm not saying that he'll go on to become an elite QB, but because he has passed for under 50% early in his career doesn't discount it either.

Again, Tebow has racked up most of his stats against soft defenses. Against base defenses and (worse yet) blitzing defenses he's been down right ineffective as a passer. He has something like a 30% completion rate against 5 or more defenders rushing the passer.

I'm not writing him off, but he's going to need to make HUGE strides in the offseason.

Play2win
12-31-2011, 12:03 PM
Tebow may have been throwing the ball the he has all his life, but never before has he come up again the level of competition that he now faces in the NFL.

In many cases, it doesn't matter how well he performed before. It really only matters how well he performs in his current context of the high level competition that is the NFL.

Cito Pelon
12-31-2011, 12:04 PM
The arm motion itself would not be a problem. The bigger problem right now is the footwork at the back of drops. He does not get set in a "loaded and cocked" position, ready to fire instantly if the route is coming open. He likes to stand relaxed, drift, and look around a while.

Seems that way to me also.

So how does Tebow's release time compare to other QB's around the league?

EDIT: So he's .2 seconds slower than league-average? That's not a huge deal condsidering he has a strong arm. The big deal as others have said above is the anticipation of where his receiver will be, and having his feet set and armed cocked ready to throw at the end of his dropback.

Play2win
12-31-2011, 12:16 PM
Seems that way to me also.

So how does Tebow's release time compare to other QB's around the league?

Would love Tebow to figure out how to fire the ball out to a quick slant across the middle as he is still back-peddling. I think that would be devastating!!

Mogulseeker
12-31-2011, 12:17 PM
Longer patterns and routes are going to require stronger pass-pro, anyway (see: patriots), thats when Tebow's motion really shows up. But, it looks like they pick their times to make those throws. They set it up. For the most part, the other throws-- 5-20 yard throws, he seems to have a somewhat more normal delivery. The motion only sticks out like a sour thumb on those longer routes, or when he scrambles and does a clear out for himself.

This.

I think the biggest problem is footwork and reading defenses and that will come with time.

We just need to invest in a really good O-line and Tebow can be really effective.

Beadles has regressed and I'm almost ready to give up on him. Clady is still good and I think Franklin is going to be a beast. Kuper isn't a problem, and Walton has shown some potential (which is promising since I didn't think he had a very good camp).

Spider
12-31-2011, 12:24 PM
I don't have the answers to solve his problem...again just trying to point out why getting the ball out faster might be important to those that make valued decisions on his NFL career.

With Elway and if we send Teebs to steve Clarkson if they get those 2 working with teebs , he should be fine next season .......

strafen
12-31-2011, 12:24 PM
Elway had a very fast release, and was according to his percentages, pretty inaccurate. So no, I don't think one inaccurate passer is going to help another inaccurate passer. Now footwook and reading the defense, that is something I hope Elway works with Tim on.

Throwing flaws...:giggle: Give me a break.It's all in one package.
Throwing a good pass consistently in the NFL or at any level is a combination of footwork, good mechanics, etc...

Cito Pelon
12-31-2011, 12:30 PM
Would love Tebow to figure out how to fire the ball out to a quick slant across the middle as he is still back-peddling. I think that would be devastating!!

Well, he's not a refined, polished passing kind of guy right now. I still have high hopes for the guy, I think he'll get better with reps. He's confident, he'll work hard, he's coachable, he has the intangibles, he's big strong and durable, he can run, he has a strong arm, there's not much more you can ask for from a young QB. Just that little extra refinement as a passing QB . . . . like Elway is fond of saying, "He's a great football player, our job is to make him a great QB."

Cito Pelon
12-31-2011, 01:11 PM
Again, Tebow has racked up most of his stats against soft defenses. Against base defenses and (worse yet) blitzing defenses he's been down right ineffective as a passer. He has something like a 30% completion rate against 5 or more defenders rushing the passer.

I'm not writing him off, but he's going to need to make HUGE strides in the offseason.

From what I've seen he struggles with receivers running deep crossing routes and slants. Needs to work on those. Having a tighter throwing motion, getting his footwork better, getting his mechanics better period has to help with that.

teknic
12-31-2011, 01:23 PM
This.

I think the biggest problem is footwork and reading defenses and that will come with time.

We just need to invest in a really good O-line and Tebow can be really effective.

Beadles has regressed and I'm almost ready to give up on him. Clady is still good and I think Franklin is going to be a beast. Kuper isn't a problem, and Walton has shown some potential (which is promising since I didn't think he had a very good camp).

Exactly.

I've seen improvement from Tebow in the passing game already this season, so I have reason to believe that he can continue to improve over the course of a real off-season.

Beadles is definitely the weak link on the OL currently, but I'm not ready to give up on him yet. He's pretty quick, and is good depth because he can play tackle or guard (although he can't play either particularly well). I still believe Franklin would be the superior guard and would improve the short yardage run game though. Perhaps we look for a new RT in the draft and let the rookie and Beadles compete for the tackle spot.

Tebow has struggled under pressure, but in all fairness, the OL has allowed the DL to get to Tebow pretty quickly. A mix of poor pass protection, Tebow staring down his primary receiver and always looking deep even when crossing routes come open, Tebow's footwork, and receivers dropping passes has made Tebow ineffective as a passer at times.

If the young players on offense (Broncos are the 2nd youngest offense in the league) can continue to develop, I believe Tebow can be very effective in the NFL. Tebow has shown the ability to find the open man and hit him with a pass if he has time (often 5+ seconds though), and if he can continue to improve as a passer, he'll be fine.

Bronco_Beerslug
12-31-2011, 06:24 PM
As he gets more experience and starts to throw to those openings, then we can judge whether the throwing motion has an effect.
My guess is a 0.2 second difference won't.

I think the average sack occurs in 2.7/8 seconds so in the NFL, .2 seconds is a lot of time.

Here's some of the up to date situational stats for Tebow...

------------------------------------------------------------------
<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr class="yspsctbg" align="center"><td colspan="3" class="ysptblhdr" height="18"> </td> <td colspan="10" class="ysptblhdr">Passing</td> <td colspan="6" class="ysptblhdr">Rushing</td> <td colspan="3" class="ysptblhdr">Sacked</td> <td colspan="3" class="ysptblhdr">Fumbles</td> </tr> <tr class="ysptblthbody1" align="right"> <td class="yspdetailttl" align="left" height="18"> Situation</td> <td class="yspdetailttl" height="18">G</td> <td> </td> <td class="yspdetailttl">QBRat</td> <td class="yspdetailttl">Comp</td> <td class="yspdetailttl">Att</td> <td class="yspdetailttl">Pct</td> <td class="yspdetailttl">Yds</td> <td class="yspdetailttl">Y/G</td> <td class="yspdetailttl">Y/A</td> <td class="yspdetailttl">TD</td> <td class="yspdetailttl">Int</td> <td> </td> <td class="yspdetailttl">Rush</td> <td class="yspdetailttl">Yds</td> <td class="yspdetailttl">Y/G</td> <td class="yspdetailttl">Avg</td> <td class="yspdetailttl">TD</td> <td> </td> <td class="yspdetailttl">Sack</td> <td class="yspdetailttl">YdsL</td> <td> </td> <td class="yspdetailttl">Fum</td> <td class="yspdetailttl">FumL</td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr class="ysprow2" align="right"><td class="yspscores" align="left"> 1st & Goal</td><td class="yspscores">0</td><td> </td><td class="yspscores">39.6</td><td class="yspscores">0</td><td class="yspscores">1</td><td class="yspscores">0.0</td><td class="yspscores">0</td><td class="yspscores">N/A</td><td class="yspscores">0.0</td><td class="yspscores">0</td><td class="yspscores">0</td><td> </td><td class="yspscores">2</td><td class="yspscores">5</td><td class="yspscores">N/A</td><td class="yspscores">2.5</td><td class="yspscores">1</td><td> </td><td class="yspscores">0</td><td class="yspscores">0</td><td> </td><td class="yspscores">0</td><td class="yspscores">0</td><td> </td></tr> <tr class="ysprow1" align="right"><td class="yspscores" align="left"> 2nd & Goal</td><td class="yspscores">0</td><td> </td><td class="yspscores">118.8</td><td class="yspscores">1</td><td class="yspscores">1</td><td class="yspscores">100.0</td><td class="yspscores">3</td><td class="yspscores">N/A</td><td class="yspscores">3.0</td><td class="yspscores">1</td><td class="yspscores">0</td><td> </td><td class="yspscores">1</td><td class="yspscores">7</td><td class="yspscores">N/A</td><td class="yspscores">7.0</td><td class="yspscores">1</td><td> </td><td class="yspscores">0</td><td class="yspscores">0</td><td> </td><td class="yspscores">0</td><td class="yspscores">0</td><td> </td></tr> <tr class="ysprow2" align="right"><td class="yspscores" align="left"> 3rd & Goal</td><td class="yspscores">0</td><td> </td><td class="yspscores">0.0</td><td class="yspscores">0</td><td class="yspscores">0</td><td class="yspscores">N/A</td><td class="yspscores">0</td><td class="yspscores">N/A</td><td class="yspscores">N/A</td><td class="yspscores">0</td><td class="yspscores">0</td><td> </td><td class="yspscores">2</td><td class="yspscores">-1</td><td class="yspscores">N/A</td><td class="yspscores">-0.5</td><td class="yspscores">1</td><td> </td><td class="yspscores">0</td><td class="yspscores">0</td><td> </td><td class="yspscores">0</td><td class="yspscores">0</td><td> </td></tr> <tr class="ysprow2" align="right"><td class="yspscores" align="left"> 1D, < 3 yds</td><td class="yspscores">0</td><td> </td><td class="yspscores">0.0</td><td class="yspscores">0</td><td class="yspscores">0</td><td class="yspscores">N/A</td><td class="yspscores">0</td><td class="yspscores">N/A</td><td class="yspscores">N/A</td><td class="yspscores">0</td><td class="yspscores">0</td><td> </td><td class="yspscores">1</td><td class="yspscores">2</td><td class="yspscores">N/A</td><td class="yspscores">2.0</td><td class="yspscores">1</td><td> </td><td class="yspscores">0</td><td class="yspscores">0</td><td> </td><td class="yspscores">0</td><td class="yspscores">0</td><td> </td></tr> <tr class="ysprow1" align="right"><td class="yspscores" align="left"> 1D, 3-7 yds</td><td class="yspscores">0</td><td> </td><td class="yspscores">45.1</td><td class="yspscores">1</td><td class="yspscores">3</td><td class="yspscores">33.3</td><td class="yspscores">11</td><td class="yspscores">N/A</td><td class="yspscores">3.7</td><td class="yspscores">0</td><td class="yspscores">0</td><td> </td><td class="yspscores">0</td><td class="yspscores">0</td><td class="yspscores">N/A</td><td class="yspscores">N/A</td><td class="yspscores">0</td><td> </td><td class="yspscores">0</td><td class="yspscores">0</td><td> </td><td class="yspscores">0</td><td class="yspscores">0</td><td> </td></tr> <tr class="ysprow2" align="right"><td class="yspscores" align="left"> 1D, 8-10 yds</td><td class="yspscores">0</td><td> </td><td class="yspscores">91.8</td><td class="yspscores">49</td><td class="yspscores">95</td><td class="yspscores">51.6</td><td class="yspscores">785</td><td class="yspscores">N/A</td><td class="yspscores">8.3</td><td class="yspscores">6</td><td class="yspscores">2</td><td> </td><td class="yspscores">38</td><td class="yspscores">209</td><td class="yspscores">N/A</td><td class="yspscores">5.5</td><td class="yspscores">0</td><td> </td><td class="yspscores">8</td><td class="yspscores">44</td><td> </td><td class="yspscores">3</td><td class="yspscores">2</td><td> </td></tr> <tr class="ysprow1" align="right"><td class="yspscores" align="left"> 1D, 11+ yds</td><td class="yspscores">0</td><td> </td><td class="yspscores">118.8</td><td class="yspscores">2</td><td class="yspscores">2</td><td class="yspscores">100.0</td><td class="yspscores">27</td><td class="yspscores">N/A</td><td class="yspscores">13.5</td><td class="yspscores">0</td><td class="yspscores">0</td><td> </td><td class="yspscores">0</td><td class="yspscores">0</td><td class="yspscores">N/A</td><td class="yspscores">N/A</td><td class="yspscores">0</td><td> </td><td class="yspscores">0</td><td class="yspscores">0</td><td> </td><td class="yspscores">1</td><td class="yspscores">0</td><td> </td></tr> <tr class="ysprow2" align="right"><td class="yspscores" align="left"> 1D, < 6 yds</td><td class="yspscores">0</td><td> </td><td class="yspscores">45.1</td><td class="yspscores">1</td><td class="yspscores">3</td><td class="yspscores">33.3</td><td class="yspscores">11</td><td class="yspscores">N/A</td><td class="yspscores">3.7</td><td class="yspscores">0</td><td class="yspscores">0</td><td> </td><td class="yspscores">1</td><td class="yspscores">2</td><td class="yspscores">N/A</td><td class="yspscores">2.0</td><td class="yspscores">1</td><td> </td><td class="yspscores">0</td><td class="yspscores">0</td><td> </td><td class="yspscores">0</td><td class="yspscores">0</td><td> </td></tr> <tr class="ysprow1" align="right"><td class="yspscores" align="left"> 1D, 6+ yds</td><td class="yspscores">0</td><td> </td><td class="yspscores">92.8</td><td class="yspscores">51</td><td class="yspscores">97</td><td class="yspscores">52.6</td><td class="yspscores">812</td><td class="yspscores">N/A</td><td class="yspscores">8.4</td><td class="yspscores">6</td><td class="yspscores">2</td><td> </td><td class="yspscores">38</td><td class="yspscores">209</td><td class="yspscores">N/A</td><td class="yspscores">5.5</td><td class="yspscores">0</td><td> </td><td class="yspscores">8</td><td class="yspscores">44</td><td> </td><td class="yspscores">4</td><td class="yspscores">2</td><td> </td></tr> <tr class="ysprow2" align="right"><td class="yspscores" align="left"> 2D, < 3 yds</td><td class="yspscores">0</td><td> </td><td class="yspscores">63.2</td><td class="yspscores">3</td><td class="yspscores">6</td><td class="yspscores">50.0</td><td class="yspscores">28</td><td class="yspscores">N/A</td><td class="yspscores">4.7</td><td class="yspscores">0</td><td class="yspscores">0</td><td> </td><td class="yspscores">6</td><td class="yspscores">36</td><td class="yspscores">N/A</td><td class="yspscores">6.0</td><td class="yspscores">0</td><td> </td><td class="yspscores">1</td><td class="yspscores">6</td><td> </td><td class="yspscores">2</td><td class="yspscores">1</td><td> </td></tr> <tr class="ysprow1" align="right"><td class="yspscores" align="left"> 2D, 3-7 yds</td><td class="yspscores">0</td><td> </td><td class="yspscores">99.5</td><td class="yspscores">11</td><td class="yspscores">21</td><td class="yspscores">52.4</td><td class="yspscores">111</td><td class="yspscores">N/A</td><td class="yspscores">5.3</td><td class="yspscores">2</td><td class="yspscores">0</td><td> </td><td class="yspscores">13</td><td class="yspscores">86</td><td class="yspscores">N/A</td><td class="yspscores">6.6</td><td class="yspscores">2</td><td> </td><td class="yspscores">3</td><td class="yspscores">13</td><td> </td><td class="yspscores">1</td><td class="yspscores">0</td><td> </td></tr> <tr class="ysprow2" align="right"><td class="yspscores" align="left"> 2D, 8-10 yds</td><td class="yspscores">0</td><td> </td><td class="yspscores">73.1</td><td class="yspscores">20</td><td class="yspscores">41</td><td class="yspscores">48.8</td><td class="yspscores">299</td><td class="yspscores">N/A</td><td class="yspscores">7.3</td><td class="yspscores">0</td><td class="yspscores">0</td><td> </td><td class="yspscores">11</td><td class="yspscores">79</td><td class="yspscores">N/A</td><td class="yspscores">7.2</td><td class="yspscores">1</td><td> </td><td class="yspscores">7</td><td class="yspscores">60</td><td> </td><td class="yspscores">1</td><td class="yspscores">1</td><td> </td></tr> <tr class="ysprow1" align="right"><td class="yspscores" align="left"> 2D, 11+ yds</td><td class="yspscores">0</td><td> </td><td class="yspscores">50.9</td><td class="yspscores">4</td><td class="yspscores">11</td><td class="yspscores">36.4</td><td class="yspscores">49</td><td class="yspscores">N/A</td><td class="yspscores">4.5</td><td class="yspscores">0</td><td class="yspscores">0</td><td> </td><td class="yspscores">8</td><td class="yspscores">52</td><td class="yspscores">N/A</td><td class="yspscores">6.5</td><td class="yspscores">0</td><td> </td><td class="yspscores">3</td><td class="yspscores">23</td><td> </td><td class="yspscores">2</td><td class="yspscores">1</td><td> </td></tr> <tr class="ysprow2" align="right"><td class="yspscores" align="left"> 2D, < 6 yds</td><td class="yspscores">0</td><td> </td><td class="yspscores">120.5</td><td class="yspscores">8</td><td class="yspscores">12</td><td class="yspscores">66.7</td><td class="yspscores">67</td><td class="yspscores">N/A</td><td class="yspscores">5.6</td><td class="yspscores">2</td><td class="yspscores">0</td><td> </td><td class="yspscores">11</td><td class="yspscores">75</td><td class="yspscores">N/A</td><td class="yspscores">6.8</td><td class="yspscores">0</td><td> </td><td class="yspscores">3</td><td class="yspscores">19</td><td> </td><td class="yspscores">3</td><td class="yspscores">1</td><td> </td></tr> <tr class="ysprow1" align="right"><td class="yspscores" align="left"> 2D, 6+ yds</td><td class="yspscores">0</td><td> </td><td class="yspscores">65.5</td><td class="yspscores">30</td><td class="yspscores">67</td><td class="yspscores">44.8</td><td class="yspscores">420</td><td class="yspscores">N/A</td><td class="yspscores">6.3</td><td class="yspscores">0</td><td class="yspscores">0</td><td> </td><td class="yspscores">27</td><td class="yspscores">178</td><td class="yspscores">N/A</td><td class="yspscores">6.6</td><td class="yspscores">3</td><td> </td><td class="yspscores">11</td><td class="yspscores">83</td><td> </td><td class="yspscores">3</td><td class="yspscores">2</td><td> </td></tr> <tr class="ysprow2" align="right"><td class="yspscores" align="left"> 3D, < 3 yds</td><td class="yspscores">0</td><td> </td><td class="yspscores">39.6</td><td class="yspscores">0</td><td class="yspscores">2</td><td class="yspscores">0.0</td><td class="yspscores">0</td><td class="yspscores">N/A</td><td class="yspscores">0.0</td><td class="yspscores">0</td><td class="yspscores">0</td><td> </td><td class="yspscores">7</td><td class="yspscores">23</td><td class="yspscores">N/A</td><td class="yspscores">3.3</td><td class="yspscores">1</td><td> </td><td class="yspscores">0</td><td class="yspscores">0</td><td> </td><td class="yspscores">0</td><td class="yspscores">0</td><td> </td></tr> <tr class="ysprow1" align="right"><td class="yspscores" align="left"> 3D, 3-7 yds</td><td class="yspscores">0</td><td> </td><td class="yspscores">21.8</td><td class="yspscores">8</td><td class="yspscores">23</td><td class="yspscores">34.8</td><td class="yspscores">51</td><td class="yspscores">N/A</td><td class="yspscores">2.2</td><td class="yspscores">1</td><td class="yspscores">2</td><td> </td><td class="yspscores">15</td><td class="yspscores">70</td><td class="yspscores">N/A</td><td class="yspscores">4.7</td><td class="yspscores">1</td><td> </td><td class="yspscores">4</td><td class="yspscores">14</td><td> </td><td class="yspscores">0</td><td class="yspscores">0</td><td> </td></tr> <tr class="ysprow2" align="right"><td class="yspscores" align="left"> 3D, 8-10 yds</td><td class="yspscores">0</td><td> </td><td class="yspscores">112.5</td><td class="yspscores">11</td><td class="yspscores">22</td><td class="yspscores">50.0</td><td class="yspscores">154</td><td class="yspscores">N/A</td><td class="yspscores">7.0</td><td class="yspscores">3</td><td class="yspscores">0</td><td> </td><td class="yspscores">8</td><td class="yspscores">42</td><td class="yspscores">N/A</td><td class="yspscores">5.3</td><td class="yspscores">0</td><td> </td><td class="yspscores">3</td><td class="yspscores">23</td><td> </td><td class="yspscores">1</td><td class="yspscores">0</td><td> </td></tr> <tr class="ysprow1" align="right"><td class="yspscores" align="left"> 3D, 11+ yds</td><td class="yspscores">0</td><td> </td><td class="yspscores">65.5</td><td class="yspscores">11</td><td class="yspscores">18</td><td class="yspscores">61.1</td><td class="yspscores">154</td><td class="yspscores">N/A</td><td class="yspscores">8.6</td><td class="yspscores">0</td><td class="yspscores">1</td><td> </td><td class="yspscores">7</td><td class="yspscores">37</td><td class="yspscores">N/A</td><td class="yspscores">5.3</td><td class="yspscores">0</td><td> </td><td class="yspscores">1</td><td class="yspscores">4</td><td> </td><td class="yspscores">1</td><td class="yspscores">0</td><td> </td></tr> <tr class="ysprow2" align="right"><td class="yspscores" align="left"> 3D, < 6 yds</td><td class="yspscores">0</td><td> </td><td class="yspscores">51.5</td><td class="yspscores">7</td><td class="yspscores">14</td><td class="yspscores">50.0</td><td class="yspscores">46</td><td class="yspscores">N/A</td><td class="yspscores">3.3</td><td class="yspscores">1</td><td class="yspscores">1</td><td> </td><td class="yspscores">17</td><td class="yspscores">68</td><td class="yspscores">N/A</td><td class="yspscores">4.0</td><td class="yspscores">2</td><td> </td><td class="yspscores">2</td><td class="yspscores">7</td><td> </td><td class="yspscores">0</td><td class="yspscores">0</td><td> </td></tr> <tr class="ysprow1" align="right"><td class="yspscores" align="left"> 3D, 6+ yds</td><td class="yspscores">0</td><td> </td><td class="yspscores">68.5</td><td class="yspscores">23</td><td class="yspscores">51</td><td class="yspscores">45.1</td><td class="yspscores">313</td><td class="yspscores">N/A</td><td class="yspscores">6.1</td><td class="yspscores">3</td><td class="yspscores">2</td><td> </td><td class="yspscores">20</td><td class="yspscores">104</td><td class="yspscores">N/A</td><td class="yspscores">5.2</td><td class="yspscores">0</td><td> </td><td class="yspscores">6</td><td class="yspscores">34</td><td> </td><td class="yspscores">2</td><td class="yspscores">0</td><td> </td></tr></tbody></table>

Mogulseeker
12-31-2011, 08:34 PM
Exactly.

I've seen improvement from Tebow in the passing game already this season, so I have reason to believe that he can continue to improve over the course of a real off-season.

Beadles is definitely the weak link on the OL currently, but I'm not ready to give up on him yet. He's pretty quick, and is good depth because he can play tackle or guard (although he can't play either particularly well). I still believe Franklin would be the superior guard and would improve the short yardage run game though. Perhaps we look for a new RT in the draft and let the rookie and Beadles compete for the tackle spot.

Tebow has struggled under pressure, but in all fairness, the OL has allowed the DL to get to Tebow pretty quickly. A mix of poor pass protection, Tebow staring down his primary receiver and always looking deep even when crossing routes come open, Tebow's footwork, and receivers dropping passes has made Tebow ineffective as a passer at times.

If the young players on offense (Broncos are the 2nd youngest offense in the league) can continue to develop, I believe Tebow can be very effective in the NFL. Tebow has shown the ability to find the open man and hit him with a pass if he has time (often 5+ seconds though), and if he can continue to improve as a passer, he'll be fine.

Yup. When I said Tebow can be really effective with a good o-line, and what I mean is in-line with the comments from Mike Ditka and Joe Montana - Tebow doesn't need to change his throwing motion if we can put together a really effective o-line.

The only thing I disagree with what you said (and with a lot of comments of posters on here) is that Franklin would be more effective at OG. I like him as that edge run blocker for off-tackle runs. But who knows, with Fox and running backs like McGahee, we just might be a good up-the-middle team, and we'll see how the draft goes. If an elite OT is there when we pick, grabbing him and sticking Franklin at OG might not be a bad way to go. I think Beadles' potential is capped at being a versatile, above-average #1 backup at OL.

edog24
12-31-2011, 08:42 PM
Oh, and on a side note...I'm not b****ing about his motion, just trying to shed some perspective on why cutting time off of it might be important to his coaching staff.

My main problem with him is his inaccuracy, and pocket presence...he's still not where I think he should be. He will need time to develop, but will he win enough to earn himself more time to do so?

I think you should be a Steelers fan.

BroncsCheer
12-31-2011, 09:23 PM
The motion is irrelevant - it's when he sets it in motion, and how his feet are set when he does. Right now, he's missing open receivers because he's slow to read the coverage and by the time (he knows) he can get the throw off, he's missed it.

In time (how much, I don't know - hopefully next year) he'll be able to see when his receivers will be open and pull the trigger sooner.

Footwork and seeing what he has in terms of "best option" receiver are the keys. Good protection/scheming comes in second to that, and the motion is a distant third.

Hamrob
12-31-2011, 09:34 PM
He needs work on his footwork and making his reads better. I think that what some coaches have said about Tebow locking in on a receiver is true. Each week, either Thomas, Decker or Royal are his #1 options. The issue with Tebow is...he doesn't go through his reads...he sticks to his #1 option...and then when it isn't there...he either throws it away, is sacked or runs for his life.

I truly don't believe his accuracy is an issue. Everybody points to these throws where he misses the guy by 10 yards. I have TIVO. He overthrows guys because he is usually ultra conservative and is just throwing the ball away. He's 48%...but, how many of his incompletions are just throws he's throwing away?

Even when he throws the int's, he hasn't been truly off. Go back and watch that throw in the 4th qtr when he was fading right and overthrew Thomas. I had to go back and watch that one a few times. Thomas didn't even get his arms extended and his feet never left the ground. The ball was on time and high..If Thomas goes up...I think it's a catch.

The Other Int where he was going to Decker was going to be a perfect rope for a TD....his fault was that he didn't think about the Safety and look him off.

To me...Tebow just needs development...like any other talented 1st round QB...who just finished playing 14 games. What did Shanny always say? A QB makes his biggest improvement between years 2-3.

maher_tyler
12-31-2011, 10:45 PM
He needs work on his footwork and making his reads better. I think that what some coaches have said about Tebow locking in on a receiver is true. Each week, either Thomas, Decker or Royal are his #1 options. The issue with Tebow is...he doesn't go through his reads...he sticks to his #1 option...and then when it isn't there...he either throws it away, is sacked or runs for his life.

I truly don't believe his accuracy is an issue. Everybody points to these throws where he misses the guy by 10 yards. I have TIVO. He overthrows guys because he is usually ultra conservative and is just throwing the ball away. He's 48%...but, how many of his incompletions are just throws he's throwing away?

Even when he throws the int's, he hasn't been truly off. Go back and watch that throw in the 4th qtr when he was fading right and overthrew Thomas. I had to go back and watch that one a few times. Thomas didn't even get his arms extended and his feet never left the ground. The ball was on time and high..If Thomas goes up...I think it's a catch.

The Other Int where he was going to Decker was going to be a perfect rope for a TD....his fault was that he didn't think about the Safety and look him off.

To me...Tebow just needs development...like any other talented 1st round QB...who just finished playing 14 games. What did Shanny always say? A QB makes his biggest improvement between years 2-3.

He needs to do a better job of taking what the D gives him. There are a lot of times where he's looking down field and there is a guy wide open underneath. He always trys to go for the home run. I think if he took the underneath stuff more often, it'd open up the home run plays a little more.