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Bronco Rob
12-26-2011, 12:36 AM
Tim Tebow, Tom Brady and the Buffalo Bills: Fan’s Perspective


By Deborah Braconnier, Yahoo! Contributor Network
3 hours, 3 minutes ago



Despite what everyone thought would be an easy win for the Denver Broncos, the team lost against the Buffalo Bills on Christmas Eve. Broncos QB Tim Tebow threw four interceptions which the Bills took full advantage of and there was no coming back for Denver.


As would be expected, Tebow's critics are quick to come back and say they told us so. Tebow is not a passer and will never make it in the NFL. Give him the ability to pass and he sends it into the hands of the other team.


As a fan of Tebow, I have never argued that he has some passing issues. He is definitely a rushing QB and this season, the Broncos have made that work. However, Tebow was beginning to show improvement in his passing game and even critics were beginning to change their tune. Then they lost to the New England Patriots and Tebow's winning streak ended.


The first loss to the Patriots and QB Tom Brady, I have to say didn't surprise me. The Bills, on the other hand, I thought the Broncos had in the bag. However, after the game ended, I did a little bit of looking and found a stat that surprised me.


While everyone is picking on Tebow and the fact that he threw four interceptions and essentially helped the Broncos lose the game, there was another QB this season that had the same problem. Back on September 25, the Bills took on another team and won after the opposing QB threw four interceptions. Can you guess who that QB was? Well, it was the one and only Tom Brady.


All the critics sit back and say that Tim Tebow will never be a "Tom Brady." Well guess what? He already is. Just like Tom Brady had a bad game and a few interceptions, Tebow had a bad day as well. And maybe, just maybe, the Bills have a good defense that can grab those interceptions.


This is Tebow's first year as a starter and yes, I think he still needs a lot of work. This year his development and practice time with the team was affected by the lockout and I think that hurt him. But, I think, given a full season, Tebow will be able to deliver and take the Broncos much further in 2012.


I am just hoping that New Year's Day will be a good one and we can beat the Kansas City Chiefs. That, for this Broncos fan, will be the best way to start 2012.


Deborah Braconnier is a former athlete and avid football fan. She is a freelance writer and Featured Contributor for the NFL and Olympics. She has followed the Denver Broncos since she was a child and can usually be found yelling at the television during football season.




http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=ycn-10750931

Archer81
12-26-2011, 12:40 AM
Other QB's other than Tebow have thrown 4 int's? Preposterous!


:Broncos:

Ratboy
12-26-2011, 12:50 AM
Other QB's other than Tebow have thrown 4 int's? Preposterous!


:Broncos:

Manning has also thrown 4 Interceptions in a game.

Want to know the difference? Those were very bad games for proven passers. We relied on Tebow to throw the ball and he showed what he was capable of.

He isn't as good as we thought or had hoped.

Archer81
12-26-2011, 12:59 AM
Manning has also thrown 4 Interceptions in a game.

Want to know the difference? Those were very bad games for proven passers. We relied on Tebow to throw the ball and he showed what he was capable of.

He isn't as good as we thought or had hoped.


This entire post is a joke, right? You have determined Tebow will get no better simply because of one bad afternoon?


:Broncos:

NFLBRONCO
12-26-2011, 01:01 AM
I'm not sold on Tebow past 2012 but, let's be fair a bit.

1. He needs more games
2. He needs more speed gamebreaking talent on O to help him out esp in this offense.
3. He needs OTA's to work with his coaches more in offseason open up gameplans
4. Wasn't thrilled with picks but, at least we were throwing ball
5. I'm not sure how you can develop Tebow to be a better passer only throwing 4 times a half. Even if you think he can cut it in NFL or not
6. Fling the ball around more see what he needs to work on this offseason.
He needs to get better feel of the rush and making quicker decisions that comes with game reps throwing the ball more then 4 times.


I'll be really curious how much the FO will actually bolster O this offseason.

Bronco_Beerslug
12-26-2011, 01:25 AM
Her comparing Tebow INTs to Brady INTs might not be that good of an idea until maybe Tebow is around awhile.....

----------------------------------------------------------------------
NFL RECORDS

Most consecutive passes, None intercepted, season: 358, Tom Brady (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Brady), October 24, 2010-September 12, 2011

Most consecutive passes, None intercepted to start a career: 162, Tom Brady (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Brady), 2000-2001

Most consecutive games, 2+ touchdown passes, no interceptions: 9, Tom Brady (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Brady), 2010

Most games with 300 yards passing and no interceptions, season 8, Tom Brady (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Brady) 2007


Most games with 1+ touchdown pass and no interceptions, season 14, Tom Brady (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Brady) 2010
Most games with 2 touchdown passes and no interceptions, season 11, Tom Brady (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Brady) 2010
Most games with 3 touchdown passes and no interceptions, season 8, Tom Brady (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Brady) 2007



Most games with 4 touchdown passes and no interceptions, season 5, Tom Brady (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Brady) 2007
Most games with 4 touchdown passes and no interceptions, career 12, Tom Brady (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Brady) 2000–2010, Brett Favre (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brett_Favre) 1991–2010
Most games with 5 touchdown passes and no interceptions, season 3, Tom Brady (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Brady) 2007

Most games with 6 touchdown passes and no interceptions, career 2, Tom Brady (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Brady) 2000–2010, Peyton Manning (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peyton_Manning) 1998–2010

Most games with 20 completions and no interceptions, season 10, Tom Brady (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Brady) 2007

Most games with 30 completions and no interceptions, season 5, Tom Brady (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Brady) 2007, Drew Brees (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drew_Brees) 2011

Most games with 30 pass attempts and no interceptions, season 8, Peyton Manning (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peyton_Manning) 2006 2010, Marc Bulger (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marc_Bulger) 2006, Tom Brady (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Brady) 2003, Drew Bledsoe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drew_Bledsoe) 2002, Drew Brees (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drew_Brees) 2011

Most games with 50 pass attempts and no interceptions, career 3, Tom Brady (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Brady) 2000–2010

Largest touchdown pass–interception differential, season: 42 (50–8) Tom Brady (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Brady), 2007


Largest touchdown pass–interception ratio, season: 9.0-1 (36-4) Tom Brady (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Brady), 2010 (mininimum 12 TD passes)
Largest passing yards–interception ratio, career: 337.3-1 (34,744-103) Tom Brady (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Brady), 2000-present (mininimum 20,000 passing yards)
Largest passing yards–interception ratio, season: 975.0-1 (3,900-4) Tom Brady (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Brady), 2010 (mininimum 2,000 passing yards)

Largest completion–interception ratio, season: 81.0-1 (324-4) Tom Brady (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Brady) 2010, (mininimum 150 completions)

Doggcow
12-26-2011, 01:29 AM
This entire post is a joke, right? You have determined Tebow will get no better simply because of one bad afternoon?


:Broncos:

TEBOW IS NOT HELD TO NORMAL STANDARDS. IF TEBOW WINS 6 GAMES IN A ROW IT'S 6 FLUKES AND IF HE LOSES A GAME IT'S BECAUSE HE'S THE WORST QB EVER AND SHOULDN'T MAKE MISTAKES, ESPECIALLY SINCE HE HAS FEWER THAN 16 STARTS IN THE NFL, HE NEEDS PERFECT MECHANICS AND NEEDS TO BE ABLE TO READ DEFENSES, LIKE MANNING DID IN HIS FIRST 16--- errp...

Bronco_Beerslug
12-26-2011, 01:34 AM
TEBOW IS NOT HELD TO NORMAL STANDARDS. IF TEBOW WINS 6 GAMES IN A ROW IT'S 6 FLUKES AND IF HE LOSES A GAME IT'S BECAUSE HE'S THE WORST QB EVER .

That's what will become clear in the near future. I know I'd rather watch Tebow QBing the Broncos than Orton anyday (so far).

Doggcow
12-26-2011, 01:43 AM
That's what will become clear in the near future. I know I'd rather watch Tebow QBing the Broncos than Orton anyday (so far).

When he does it 100% of the time, I think it's pretty damn telling.

Spider
12-26-2011, 06:42 AM
WOW you people are ****ing hard up for some good Tebow news .......... well if it woks for ya , more power to ya

orinjkrush
12-26-2011, 07:53 AM
if the Oline did a better job in the rushing dept, they wouldn't have had to throw as much.

time for the oline to show up

Spider
12-26-2011, 08:07 AM
if the Oline did a better job in the rushing dept, they wouldn't have had to throw as much.

time for the oline to show up

Rolling Pocket .......Need some Shanny O

barryr
12-26-2011, 09:38 AM
It makes sense for a team to develop a passing game, they kind of have to do it or at least try. You don't get better at something by avoiding it and only doing it when you have no other choice.

Broncos4tw
12-26-2011, 09:40 AM
TEBOW IS NOT HELD TO NORMAL STANDARDS. IF TEBOW WINS 6 GAMES IN A ROW IT'S 6 FLUKES

But Tim didn't really win those games. He may have come back in the end to produce some miraculous finishes, but the strength of our running attack (of which he was part of), and especially our defense, is why we won those games. We hardly lit up the scoreboard in those games, and it was said repeatedly, what would happen if we had to pass to catch up to a high scoring team? Answer: look at what the Patriots did to us.

Not that I don't think Tim can't produce given a solid offseason. It's possible. Not saying completely likely though. His sheer desire to win, and his work ethic may be the difference. But to blindly say all the wins were solely due to Tebow is really closing your eyes to the facts.

Gort
12-26-2011, 09:52 AM
This entire post is a joke, right? You have determined Tebow will get no better simply because of one bad afternoon?


:Broncos:

it's not worth arguing with people who have a shallow understanding of the game.

the headline is that Tebow had 4 INTs, as if that's why we lost the game.

those 4 INTs were incidental to the outcome. Tebow didn't throw his first INT until very late in the 3rd quarter, when we were already down by 2 scores. we'd have been down even more if their FG kicker hadn't missed two early FGs. those INTs by Tebow were in desperation time when we were already getting our collective asses handed to us. bad defense. atrocious special teams. awful offensive playcalling. terrible gameplan and preparation. zero adjustments during the 2nd quarter. lousy, partisan refs. and the Broncos OL was terrible as well. Tebow didn't have a great game, but how do you put the blame on a guy who is asked to handoff the ball pretty much every play in the first half? Tebow is still a young QB. he's got to get better. not because he's a liability, but because he is still lacking some skills that would help us get out of these early holes.

but the dumb people, who don't know what they are talking about, will focus on the 4 INTs and claim that's why the Broncos lost. if Tebow had thrown an INT in every quarter, i'd probably agree. but all 4 of them came in the final 17 minutes (or thereabout) when we were already down and getting manhandled.

barryr
12-26-2011, 09:59 AM
it's not worth arguing with people who have a shallow understanding of the game.

the headline is that Tebow had 4 INTs, as if that's why we lost the game.

those 4 INTs were incidental to the outcome. Tebow didn't throw his first INT until very late in the 3rd quarter, when we were already down by 2 scores. we'd have been down even more if their FG kicker hadn't missed two early FGs. those INTs by Tebow were in desperation time when we were already getting our collective asses handed to us. bad defense. atrocious special teams. awful offensive playcalling. terrible gameplan and preparation. zero adjustments during the 2nd quarter. lousy, partisan refs. and the Broncos OL was terrible as well. Tebow didn't have a great game, but how do you put the blame on a guy who is asked to handoff the ball pretty much every play in the first half? Tebow is still a young QB. he's got to get better. not because he's a liability, but because he is still lacking some skills that would help us get out of these early holes.

but the dumb people, who don't know what they are talking about, will focus on the 4 INTs and claim that's why the Broncos lost. if Tebow had thrown an INT in every quarter, i'd probably agree. but all 4 of them came in the final 17 minutes (or thereabout) when we were already down and getting manhandled.

Very true. Interceptions are not great, but some want to pretend those picks led to the loss when the team was not doing well long before the picks started. The Broncos were down 17-7 at the half not stopping the run at all.

TonyR
12-26-2011, 09:59 AM
Comparing Brady's and Tebow's respective performances against Buffalo is a bit ridiculous considering Brady threw for 387 yards and 4 td's and led his offense to 31 points in that game. By comparison Tebow threw for 185 yards, 1 td and 14 points.

cmhargrove
12-26-2011, 10:03 AM
Special Teams killed us (and the refs). There's no need to over-analyze this game, we played horrible team football. Not a single part of our team was functioning well, but the Special Teams mistakes were more than any team could handle (including the Patriots or Packers).

Let's move on to the KC game, and build some momentum for the playoffs. Hopefully, we can get at least one of our young Safeties to step up and play like a pro in the weeks to come...

MacGruder
12-26-2011, 02:16 PM
It wasn't Tebow that was exposed.. it was the entire offense... the coach should take the most blame though.

Fox's entire gameplan is built around relying on the defense... and that tanked horribly. Then Tebow is put in the horrible position of trying to dig out of that hole in a very short period of time with a weak offense.

Fox banked on Orton early in the season and it blew up in his face.. now he is banking on the defense and it's blowing up in his face once again. The games Tebow won were in spite of this flawed strategy not because of it.

MacGruder
12-26-2011, 02:17 PM
Comparing Brady's and Tebow's respective performances against Buffalo is a bit ridiculous considering Brady threw for 387 yards and 4 td's and led his offense to 31 points in that game. By comparison Tebow threw for 185 yards, 1 td and 14 points.

Yes but Tebow has a much worse coach... far less experience, far fewer offensive weapons and his coach handcuffed him the whole game and then asked him to bail them out in the worst situation imaginable...

Doggcow
12-26-2011, 02:20 PM
But Tim didn't really win those games. He may have come back in the end to produce some miraculous finishes, but the strength of our running attack (of which he was part of), and especially our defense, is why we won those games. We hardly lit up the scoreboard in those games, and it was said repeatedly, what would happen if we had to pass to catch up to a high scoring team? Answer: look at what the Patriots did to us.

Not that I don't think Tim can't produce given a solid offseason. It's possible. Not saying completely likely though. His sheer desire to win, and his work ethic may be the difference. But to blindly say all the wins were solely due to Tebow is really closing your eyes to the facts.

Ok, so, when the ST, and Defense drop the ball, it's TEBOW'S FAULT IF WE DON'T CATCH UP. But when Tebow WINS A GAME THAT'S WITHIN REACH, it's because the rest of the team is so damn good.

Plus he prayed for Barber to step out of bounds.

TonyR
12-26-2011, 02:46 PM
those 4 INTs were incidental to the outcome.

I think this is dubious to say the least. The Broncos were only down 23-14 when that first int was thrown. The Bills took over on Denver's 27 and the D stopped them to force a FG making the score 26-14. So that int took it from a TD+FG needed to win to needing 2 TD's, and thanks to the D stepping up it wasn't worse. Denver's O took over again needing to score and got 1 1st down on a penalty and then went 3 and out. The D stepped up and stopped the Bills again. So the O got yet another chance. Tebow proceeded to throw 2 int's for TD's.

So Tebow's 1st int started the slide from it being a manageable deficit to a more difficult one. The D stepped up twice, the O failed, and then turned the ball over twice. No way you can blame the D down the stretch. It was all about the O and turnovers.

errand
12-26-2011, 02:58 PM
This entire post is a joke, right? You have determined Tebow will get no better simply because of one bad afternoon?


:Broncos:

other than a few passes per game, what exactly have you seen that makes you think the bills game was just one bad game by tim?

barryr
12-26-2011, 03:03 PM
other than a few passes per game, what exactly have you seen that makes you think the bills game was just one bad game by tim?

A few passes is all he gets sometimes, so a QB to develop in an offense needs a training camp getting most of the snaps, which Tebow hasn't gotten yet, and throwing more than a handful of passes per half, especially the first half of games.

errand
12-26-2011, 03:07 PM
A few passes is all he gets sometimes, so a QB to develop in an offense needs a training camp getting most of the snaps, which Tebow hasn't gotten yet, and throwing more than a handful of passes per half, especially the first half of games.

so who is throwing all of the 1st team passes in practice since the bye week?

MacGruder
12-26-2011, 04:06 PM
So Tebow's 1st int started the slide from it being a manageable deficit to a more difficult one. The D stepped up twice, the O failed, and then turned the ball over twice. No way you can blame the D down the stretch. It was all about the O and turnovers.

Fox wouldn't let Tebow play early in the game when there was a lead. Then when he was behind Tebow had to dig them out.. the Broncos were not stopping the opposing offense.. so he knew he had an extremely uphill battle.

Tebow had no room for error. He was put in a now win situation. When he did actually make an error for once then that just compounded things.

Tebow doesn't turn the ball over normally.. which is why it makes no sense to handcuff him all game. The methodical style Fox plays is not best suited to Tebow's abilities either. When Tebow has his best results it's playing up tempo.. so why doesn't fox let him d o it more. It is even harder to do that when ou haven't let the offense do anything all game and relying on the D failed miserably.

TonyR
12-26-2011, 04:31 PM
...the Broncos were not stopping the opposing offense.. so he knew he had an extremely uphill battle.

It seemed that way but I just showed you how the D stopped Buffalo twice while the offense was failing and turning the ball over. The defense only allowed 19 points and held Buffalo to 2/12 on 3rd down conversions.

MacGruder
12-26-2011, 04:38 PM
It seemed that way but I just showed you how the D stopped Buffalo twice while the offense was failing and turning the ball over. The defense only allowed 19 points and held Buffalo to 2/12 on 3rd down conversions.

Yes but they also missed 2 field goals.. and the Bills offense was moving down field at will.. and the kick returner was killing them.Numbers in a blowout are also completely deceptive..

And Tebow got intercepted and turned the ball over but at least he didn't just play conservative and dink and dunk the rest of his game and ensure he put up pretty numbers in a loss the way Orton always did. This is why Tebow's stats are so misleading and why people were nuts to let Orton get away with that all that time by being fooled with hollow meaningless numbers.

Tebow could have played conservative hoping the Broncos D won the game but at the rate they were playing that wasn't going to happen and that philosophy surely won't work against better teams as well.

The real issue in the game was that Buffalo had nothing to lose. They could swing for the fences fearlessly and play all out and they were risking nothing. Fox was playing for everything and has paralyzed his team with conservative play. This ensures losing if you ask me.

TonyR
12-26-2011, 04:40 PM
Here's the play-by-play starting with Denver down 23-14 in the 3rd quarter:

Denver Broncos at 2:32
1st and 10 at DEN 7 W.McGahee left guard to DEN 10 for 3 yards (N.Barnett; A.Carrington).
2nd and 7 at DEN 10 (Shotgun) T.Tebow scrambles up the middle to DEN 14 for 4 yards (G.Wilson, N.Barnett). PENALTY on BUF-A.Williams, Defensive Holding, 5 yards, enforced at DEN 14.
1st and 10 at DEN 19 W.McGahee up the middle to DEN 18 for -1 yards (M.Dareus, C.Kelsay).
2nd and 11 at DEN 18 (Shotgun) T.Tebow pass incomplete short right to D.Thomas. Overthrown, receiver along sideline at DEN 33.
3rd and 11 at DEN 18 T.Tebow pass deep middle intended for D.Thomas INTERCEPTED by J.Rogers at DEN 42. J.Rogers to DEN 27 for 15 yards (L.Ball).
DRIVE TOTALS: DEN 14, BUF 23, 4 plays, 24 yards, 2:09 elapsed

Buffalo Bills at 0:23
1st and 10 at DEN 27 C.Spiller up the middle to DEN 27 for no gain (M.Thomas).
End of Period
4th Quarter Play by Play
2nd and 10 at DEN 27 (Shotgun) R.Fitzpatrick scrambles left tackle to DEN 16 for 11 yards (J.Hunter).
1st and 10 at DEN 16 (Shotgun) R.Fitzpatrick pass incomplete short left to S.Chandler (D.Bruton). Thrown behind receiver in flat at DEN 4.
2nd and 10 at DEN 16 (Shotgun) T.Choice up the middle to DEN 11 for 5 yards (W.Woodyard).
3rd and 5 at DEN 11 R.Fitzpatrick pass incomplete short middle to T.Choice [E.Dumervil]. Dropped at DEN 5, crossing from left.
4th and 5 at DEN 11 D.Rayner 29 yard field goal is GOOD, Center-G.Sanborn, Holder-B.Moorman. 14 26
D.Rayner kicks 66 yards from BUF 35 to DEN -1. M.Willis to DEN 28 for 29 yards (C.McIntyre).
DRIVE TOTALS: DEN 14, BUF 26, 6 plays, 16 yards, 1:57 elapsed

Denver Broncos at 13:26
1st and 10 at DEN 28 (Shotgun) T.Tebow pass incomplete deep right to E.Royal (A.Williams). Receiver and breakup along sideline at BUF 43. PENALTY on BUF-A.Williams, Defensive Pass Interference, 29 yards, enforced at DEN 28 - No Play.
1st and 10 at BUF 43 (Shotgun) T.Tebow pass short left to E.Royal to BUF 41 for 2 yards (K.Moore). Screen pass, caught at BUF 47.
2nd and 8 at BUF 41 (Shotgun) T.Tebow pass incomplete short left to W.McGahee [K.Sheppard]. Thrown out of bounds, receiver along sideline at BUF 35.
3rd and 8 at BUF 41 (Shotgun) T.Tebow pass incomplete short left to E.Decker. Overthrown, receiver at BUF 28, crossing from middle.
4th and 8 at BUF 41 B.Colquitt punts 24 yards to BUF 17, Center-L.Paxton, downed by DEN-L.Paxton.
DRIVE TOTALS: DEN 14, BUF 26, 3 plays, 31 yards, 1:12 elapsed

Buffalo Bills at 12:06
1st and 10 at BUF 17 C.Spiller left end to BUF 16 for -1 yards (E.Dumervil).
2nd and 11 at BUF 16 (Shotgun) R.Fitzpatrick pass incomplete short left to St.Johnson (C.Bailey). Receiver and coverage in flat at BUF 24.
3rd and 11 at BUF 16 (Shotgun) R.Fitzpatrick scrambles right tackle to BUF 28 for 12 yards (C.Harris). DEN-C.Harris was injured during the play. His return is Questionable. C.Harris walks off.
1st and 10 at BUF 28 T.Choice up the middle to BUF 26 for -2 yards (D.Bruton).
2nd and 12 at BUF 26 C.Spiller up the middle to BUF 21 for -5 yards (D.Williams).
3rd and 17 at BUF 21 (Shotgun) R.Fitzpatrick pass short right to St.Johnson to BUF 34 for 13 yards (D.Bruton). Flat pass, thrown under pressure, receiver at BUF 34.
4th and 4 at BUF 34 B.Moorman punts 50 yards to DEN 16, Center-G.Sanborn. E.Royal to DEN 19 for 3 yards (D.Searcy). Penalty enforced from end of return. PENALTY on DEN-D.Rosario, Illegal Block Above the Waist, 9 yards, enforced at DEN 19.
DRIVE TOTALS: DEN 14, BUF 26, 6 plays, 17 yards, 3:52 elapsed

Denver Broncos at 8:14
1st and 10 at DEN 10 (Shotgun) T.Tebow pass deep left intended for E.Decker INTERCEPTED by J.Byrd at DEN 37. J.Byrd for 37 yards, TOUCHDOWN. 14 32
D.Rayner extra point is GOOD, Center-G.Sanborn, Holder-B.Moorman. 14 33
D.Rayner kicks 68 yards from BUF 35 to DEN -3. M.Willis to DEN 25 for 28 yards (J.Rogers).
DRIVE TOTALS: DEN 14, BUF 33, 1 play, 37 yards, 0:00 elapsed

Denver Broncos at 7:55
1st and 10 at DEN 25 (Shotgun) T.Tebow pass short left INTERCEPTED by Sp.Johnson (C.Kelsay) at DEN 17. Sp.Johnson for 17 yards, TOUCHDOWN. 14 40
D.Rayner extra point is GOOD, Center-G.Sanborn, Holder-B.Moorman. 14 40
Timeout #1 by BUF at 07:45.
D.Rayner kicks 66 yards from BUF 35 to DEN -1. M.Willis to DEN 16 for 17 yards (A.Moats).
DRIVE TOTALS: DEN 14, BUF 40, 1 play, 16 yards, 0:00 elapsed

TonyR
12-26-2011, 04:42 PM
Yes but they also missed 2 field goals.. and the Bills offense was moving down field at will.. and the kick returner was killing them.Numbers in a blowout are also completely deceptive..

Agree. But I'm talking about the critical juncture starting late in the 3rd quarter with the Broncos down only 23-14. The defense held, the offense failed. See play by play above.

Bronco_Beerslug
12-26-2011, 06:38 PM
Yes but Tebow has a much worse coach...This!

We hired a career .500 coach whose offense's ranked 20th (overall avg.) in the league during his career.

MacGruder
12-26-2011, 07:13 PM
Agree. But I'm talking about the critical juncture starting late in the 3rd quarter with the Broncos down only 23-14. The defense held, the offense failed. See play by play above.

If you watched that game and felt the defense held the Bill's there isn't really much more to discuss.

If they appeared to hold them it was because they were already up and didn't have to risk turning the ball over then.

The first turnover Tebow had was an incredible play by the Bills D and a terrible play by Decker...

After that they were teeing off and Tebow was desperate because there was no indication the Broncos D was going to score any points off turnovers.

Jetmeck
12-26-2011, 07:25 PM
Manning has also thrown 4 Interceptions in a game.

Want to know the difference? Those were very bad games for proven passers. We relied on Tebow to throw the ball and he showed what he was capable of.

He isn't as good as we thought or had hoped.

I am sorry in advance for this but are you freakin stupid ?

Earlier posts brought up Brady and Manning whom are both vets with rings.

Surely you are not saying a guy with less than a years worth of games and no off season can't improve and surely you are not saying there have not instances that showed you and the world what he is capable of on the ground and through the air ?

Blueflame
12-26-2011, 08:44 PM
Re: Post #28...

Psst... hey, Mac. FGs and kick returns are special teams plays; not defensive ones. You can't hold the defense responsible for mistakes made on special teams any more than you can hold them responsible for pick-6's.

Spider
12-26-2011, 08:47 PM
I am sorry in advance for this but are you freakin stupid ?

Earlier posts brought up Brady and Manning whom are both vets with rings.

Surely you are not saying a guy with less than a years worth of games and no off season can't improve and surely you are not saying there have not instances that showed you and the world what he is capable of on the ground and through the air ?

Hilarious! you have the nerve to call someone stupid after you gave this take ?

TonyR
12-26-2011, 09:03 PM
If you watched that game and felt the defense held the Bill's there isn't really much more to discuss.

Re-read post #27. I can't lay it out any more simply for you than I already have.

Jetmeck
12-26-2011, 11:43 PM
Hilarious! you have the nerve to call someone stupid after you gave this take ?


Only you...............:wave:

ZONA
12-27-2011, 01:18 AM
I'm not sold on Tebow past 2012 but, let's be fair a bit.

1. He needs more games
2. He needs more speed gamebreaking talent on O to help him out esp in this offense.
3. He needs OTA's to work with his coaches more in offseason open up gameplans
4. Wasn't thrilled with picks but, at least we were throwing ball
5. I'm not sure how you can develop Tebow to be a better passer only throwing 4 times a half. Even if you think he can cut it in NFL or not
6. Fling the ball around more see what he needs to work on this offseason.
He needs to get better feel of the rush and making quicker decisions that comes with game reps throwing the ball more then 4 times.


I'll be really curious how much the FO will actually bolster O this offseason.

Wells said. He obviously has a lot to work on but just as you said, you have to allow him the chance to "work" on the passing game. Anybody that plays the game is going to go through rough spells.

One of the biggest problems you see from fans today is they love to compare young players with proven long time vets as they appeared in their primes or end of their careers. You cannot do that. I have a friend who is a DIE HARD Cowboys fan and I can clearly remember him saying Aikman was never going to lead the Cowboys anywhere after his 1st season (1-15).

And I also agree with you that you cannot simply hand the keys to Tebow for the long haul. But he has earned the right to comeback next year and let's see what he can do with a full offseason and regular season. Then you will have enough games in which to fully judge whether or not he might be the long term answer.

ol#7
12-27-2011, 02:16 AM
You know, I m not so sure posters like TonyR and errand are actually rooting for the Broncos to win, seems like you guys are happier when we lose.

I get that the Broncos have had this defeatest attitude surrounding them for awhile, but c'mon already! Give it a rest and lets see how we come out this week, youll have all offseason to bitch if we fail to make the playoffs again.

dsmoot
12-27-2011, 06:14 AM
I'm not sold on Tebow past 2012 but, let's be fair a bit.

1. He needs more games
2. He needs more speed gamebreaking talent on O to help him out esp in this offense.
3. He needs OTA's to work with his coaches more in offseason open up gameplans
4. Wasn't thrilled with picks but, at least we were throwing ball
5. I'm not sure how you can develop Tebow to be a better passer only throwing 4 times a half. Even if you think he can cut it in NFL or not
6. Fling the ball around more see what he needs to work on this offseason.
He needs to get better feel of the rush and making quicker decisions that comes with game reps throwing the ball more then 4 times.


I'll be really curious how much the FO will actually bolster O this offseason.

Thank you for posting some sanity. Too many ready to look at Tebow's development as black and white hinging on the outcome of one play or one game. Silly. Am I completely sold. No. Am I very hopeful and willing to wait one more year to form a more solid opinion. Yes.

My daughter's boyfriend, a Bears fan, watched the Buffalo game with me. He is very typical of so many. Even after Tebows noticible improvement coming down the stretch, he sees one play gone awry and he starts criticizing and laughing. Of course he also is like so many who is also mocking his outward Christian beliefs. I can't imagine what he did during Cutlers first year in Chicago where he was throwing those mysterious redzone interceptions when you really had to wonder who he was throwing to or how he thought he could thread the ball past 3 DB's. You remember his time in Denver doing the same things. Were there questions at that time if a guy with tremendous physical skills was going to be a franchise QB or another Jeff George. You bet.

We will hope for the best with Tebow. By the end of next year, if we don't see another jump step in improvement, then draft a QB. We need to see that improvement because where he is right now isn't enough.

errand
12-27-2011, 06:30 AM
You know, I m not so sure posters like TonyR and errand are actually rooting for the Broncos to win, seems like you guys are happier when we lose.

I get that the Broncos have had this defeatest attitude surrounding them for awhile, but c'mon already! Give it a rest and lets see how we come out this week, youll have all offseason to b**** if we fail to make the playoffs again.

Anyone that has been on here for more than a year knows that you're talking out your ass when you say this about me....

Shotgun Willie
12-27-2011, 07:22 AM
if the Oline did a better job in the rushing dept, they wouldn't have had to throw as much.

time for the oline to show up

Is this a joke? They lead the freaking league in rushing and had over 130 rushing yds against the Bills.

barryr
12-27-2011, 07:28 AM
Anyone that has been on here for more than a year knows that you're talking out your ass when you say this about me....

When you keep bashing and referring to Tebow as people's "hero" as you have constantly done, then you shouldn't be surprised people wonder about you.

errand
12-27-2011, 08:18 AM
When you keep bashing and referring to Tebow as people's "hero" as you have constantly done, then you shouldn't be surprised people wonder about you.

So bashing Tebow for a **** performance of 13-30 and 4 INT...2 pick 6 means I want the team to lose?

If I did want them to lose, i'd be glad he sucked, wouldn't I?

in fact you guys were the ones who silently rejoiced our 1-4 start, cuz it meant your hero would become the starter

Gort
12-27-2011, 08:38 AM
Re-read post #27. I can't lay it out any more simply for you than I already have.

you probably blamed Tebow for the loss against SD because his last second Hail Mary pass fell incomplete in the endzone.

admit it, there is no distortion too extreme for you if it allows you to blame Tebow.

Tebow is a young QB. he's got alot to learn and improve upon. it's not in this franchise's benefit to start all over yet again trying to find the next Elway. they may do that, but that means another couple of years of certain suckitude. no Broncos fan should want to endure that.

the game was over except for the possibility of a miraculous comeback by the time Tebow starting throwing INTs. that's a fact. the game was not lost by Tebow. it was a collective cluster**** by everyone involved. but you can't see that because you're trying to prove you're right. newsflash... nobody cares if you're right or wrong except you. the rest of us want this team to win and stop disappointing us. i'm sick of the disappointments to end the season.

Spider
12-27-2011, 08:40 AM
Only you...............:wave:

when Teebs becomes a proven QB like some of the others mentioned , then repost the 4 ints thing

jhns
12-27-2011, 08:44 AM
So bashing Tebow for a **** performance of 13-30 and 4 INT...2 pick 6 means I want the team to lose?

If I did want them to lose, i'd be glad he sucked, wouldn't I?

in fact you guys were the ones who silently rejoiced our 1-4 start, cuz it meant your hero would become the starter

Or because you hate on the guy that turned this teams season around and jump at every chance you get to talk bad about him. This team was 4-14 without Tebow. I love that the clowns are out in force after one bad game by a QB that has less than a seasons worth of starts.

barryr
12-27-2011, 08:52 AM
So bashing Tebow for a **** performance of 13-30 and 4 INT...2 pick 6 means I want the team to lose?

If I did want them to lose, i'd be glad he sucked, wouldn't I?

in fact you guys were the ones who silently rejoiced our 1-4 start, cuz it meant your hero would become the starter

Constantly referring to Tebow lovers and other such stupid crap does not show someone who wants Tebow to succeed and instead, takes delight when he struggles. That isn't fan of a team in my book when someone does that every day of the week.

As for me, I hardly rejoiced. In fact, I was one of the few at the time(you were here at the time, since 2001?) when Orton first came to the team, that supported him and suggested he should get a chance first to prove he can do the job or not. Hmm, just as I am with Tebow. And you stated what at that time about Orton? You have been around supposedly since 2001 yet only now are posting the most you ever have now? Pretty fishy to me.

errand
12-27-2011, 09:07 AM
Or because you hate on the guy that turned this teams season around and jump at every chance you get to talk bad about him. This team was 4-14 without Tebow. I love that the clowns are out in force after one bad game by a QB that has less than a seasons worth of starts.

Lol....again use search feature, type in tebow, kid, or tim...read EVERY post I made about him. Then come back so I can accept your apology

TonyR
12-27-2011, 09:14 AM
...admit it, there is no distortion too extreme for you if it allows you to blame Tebow.

I'm not going to admit something that isn't true. I'm not blaming Tebow alone for this loss. But some of you guys gave Tebow most of the credit for our success but then want to make excuses for him after a loss. That's not keeping it real. With credit for wins comes blame for losses. You can't have it both ways. Even Skip Bayless (see vid linked below) is willing to admit he was awful in the 4th quarter. But clowns like you want to blame the defense for the loss which is laughable.

Nowhere did I blame Tebow alone for the loss, and nowhere am I proclaiming that he's a bust and that we should give up on him. But it's a joke that some of you guys can't admit that he played poorly and deserves a healty portion of blame for a loss. The kid is human, and with that sometimes comes failure. How are we ever going to have conversation about football with some of you people putting him up on a pedestal?

http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=espn:7389754

barryr
12-27-2011, 09:18 AM
I'm not going to admit something that isn't true. I'm not blaming Tebow alone for this loss. But some of you guys gave Tebow most of the credit for our success but then want to make excuses for him after a loss. That's not keeping it real. With credit for wins comes blame for losses. You can't have it both ways. Even Skip Bayless (see vid linked below) is willing to admit he was awful in the 4th quarter. But clowns like you want to blame the defense for the loss which is laughable.

Nowhere did I blame Tebow alone for the loss, and nowhere am I proclaiming that he's a bust and that we should give up on him. But it's a joke that some of you guys can't admit that he played poorly and deserves a healty portion of blame for a loss. The kid is human, and with that sometimes comes failure. How are we ever going to have conversation about football with some of you people putting him up on a pedestal?

http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=espn:7389754

Then we have people like you who seem eager and like it is your duty to remind everyone Tebow's struggles every day. So you can't have it both ways either when you single out Tebow, but have little to say about the rest of the team, but claim to just want objectivity from everyone. Try it yourself.

barryr
12-27-2011, 09:25 AM
Lol....again use search feature, type in tebow, kid, or tim...read EVERY post I made about him. Then come back so I can accept your apology

I did and back in September, you started with the "Tebow" fans crap and one could see your full support of Orton back then, so that explains why you dislike anything about Tebow.

I posted many times when Orton first came to the team, that he needs time to show what he can do, unlike so many posters back then who wanted him gone before his first camp. And I post the same about Tebow. That is called consistency. You might try it sometime. Orton had plenty of time and it didn't work out. Tebow deserves at least one training camp as the starter before he is labeled a bust or this hating nonsense that some feel compelled to do for stupid reasons.

TonyR
12-27-2011, 09:26 AM
Then we have people like you who seem eager and like it is your duty to remind everyone Tebow's struggles every day. So you can't have it both ways either when you single out Tebow, but have little to say about the rest of the team, but claim to just want objectivity from everyone. Try it yourself.

Show me one argument I've made that isn't objective. I'm only correcting the people who are blaming the defense for the loss. I'm making factual statements about what happened in the game. That's what objectivity is all about. And I'm specifically not "singling out" Tebow so you're not making any sense as usual.

Shotgun Willie
12-27-2011, 09:26 AM
I did and back in September, you started with the "Tebow" fans crap and one could see your full support of Orton back then

I can't believe he supported our starting QB back in September. Damn him!

barryr
12-27-2011, 09:28 AM
Show me one argument I've made that isn't objective. I'm only correcting the people who are blaming the defense for the loss. I'm making factual statements about what happened in the game. That's what objectivity is all about. And I'm specifically not "singling out" Tebow so you're not making any sense as usual.

Not really when you constantly dismiss a bad defensive performance and point to the QB and offense not putting up 30 points. It was a team loss anyway, but the Bronco defense has hardly played great lately and are ranked in the 20's still in defense.

Spider
12-27-2011, 09:29 AM
Then we have people like you who seem eager and like it is your duty to remind everyone Tebow's struggles every day. So you can't have it both ways either when you single out Tebow, but have little to say about the rest of the team, but claim to just want objectivity from everyone. Try it yourself.

Hilarious! Idiot

barryr
12-27-2011, 09:32 AM
Hilarious! Idiot

Oh, look everybody, the board's clueless and leader in ad hominem attacks needs a friend and how sweet, he comes to his wannabe boyfriend's defense like he does with all of his idiots who share his political beliefs since they can not stand alone and need help. How special.

Spider
12-27-2011, 09:34 AM
Oh, look everybody, the board's clueless and leader in ad hominem attacks needs a friend and how sweet, he comes to his wannabe boyfriend's defense like he does with all of his idiots who share his political beliefs since they can not stand alone and need help. How special.

what would even be more special is if your reading comprehension would improve .. But that would require an act of Teb. err god ....

peacepipe
12-27-2011, 09:43 AM
This entire post is a joke, right? You have determined Tebow will get no better simply because of one bad afternoon?


:Broncos:
below 50% passing, also no improvement whatsoever on 3rd down conversions,which is where a QB makes his money. Elway also stated that 3rd down conversions is where tebow needed to show improvement.
4-16
2-14
5-14
3-13
5-17
3-11
5-12
2-13
these 3rd down numbers reflect every game he started this season.

jhns
12-27-2011, 10:15 AM
Lol....again use search feature, type in tebow, kid, or tim...read EVERY post I made about him. Then come back so I can accept your apology

No.

jhns
12-27-2011, 10:18 AM
Show me one argument I've made that isn't objective. I'm only correcting the people who are blaming the defense for the loss. I'm making factual statements about what happened in the game. That's what objectivity is all about. And I'm specifically not "singling out" Tebow so you're not making any sense as usual.

Show me a single argument you have made that favors Tebow. Yhe staff has given him a passing grade for this season. Have you?

bendog
12-27-2011, 10:21 AM
Here we go. (looking for beverage cart)

oubronco
12-27-2011, 10:25 AM
below 50% passing, also no improvement whatsoever on 3rd down conversions,which is where a QB makes his money. Elway also stated that 3rd down conversions is where tebow needed to show improvement.
4-16
2-14
5-14
3-13
5-17
3-11
5-12
2-13
these 3rd down numbers reflect every game he started this season.

That's just pathetic

jhns
12-27-2011, 10:28 AM
7-3

Spider
12-27-2011, 10:39 AM
below 50% passing, also no improvement whatsoever on 3rd down conversions,which is where a QB makes his money. Elway also stated that 3rd down conversions is where tebow needed to show improvement.
4-16
2-14
5-14
3-13
5-17
3-11
5-12
2-13
these 3rd down numbers reflect every game he started this season.

yeah that is bad , But Teebs is in his 2 nd year , everyone knew it would take time , with a full TC , preseason etc , those #'s should improve vastly

ScottXray
12-27-2011, 10:40 AM
That's just pathetic

To accurately judge him on third downs you have to take out all the Third down runs that were called ( QB draws, handoffs and called shuffle passes) that did not succeed. Runs that he made on called passes and actual passes are what he should be evaluated on, not all plays.

While this still would be bad it would not be as bad as the numbers mentioned. Since he is inexperienced he is not going to do much in the way of check offs and play changing. Called runs that fail on third downs are on the A; coaching, B: O line , C: Runners.

jhns
12-27-2011, 10:42 AM
To accurately judge him on third downs you have to take out all the Third down runs that were called ( QB draws, handoffs and called shuffle passes) that did not succeed. Runs that he made on called passes and actual passes are what he should be evaluated on, not all plays.

While this still would be bad it would not be as bad as the numbers mentioned. Since he is inexperienced he is not going to do much in the way of check offs and play changing. Called runs that fail on third downs are on the A; coaching, B: O line , C: Runners.

As if the haters care about basic logic... It doesn't fit their Bronco hating agenda...

peacepipe
12-27-2011, 10:43 AM
To accurately judge him on third downs you have to take out all the Third down runs that were called ( QB draws, handoffs and called shuffle passes) that did not succeed. Runs that he made on called passes and actual passes are what he should be evaluated on, not all plays.

While this still would be bad it would not be as bad as the numbers mentioned. Since he is inexperienced he is not going to do much in the way of check offs and play changing. Called runs that fail on third downs are on the A; coaching, B: O line , C: Runners.cherry picking his stats on 3rd down is laughable. they are what they are. no excuses.

Spider
12-27-2011, 10:43 AM
To accurately judge him on third downs you have to take out all the Third down runs that were called ( QB draws, handoffs and called shuffle passes) that did not succeed. Runs that he made on called passes and actual passes are what he should be evaluated on, not all plays.

While this still would be bad it would not be as bad as the numbers mentioned. Since he is inexperienced he is not going to do much in the way of check offs and play changing. Called runs that fail on third downs are on the A; coaching, B: O line , C: Runners.

naw on 3 d down Teebs needs to convert , thats what he is paid to do , now 3 rd and long is a different story , but 3 rd and 5 or less teebs needs to get it done one way or another ...

jhns
12-27-2011, 10:44 AM
cherry picking his stats on 3rd down is laughable. they are what they are. no excuses.

They are what they are. Just like how his 7-3 record speaks for itself. It is easy to see why you raider fans hate him.

peacepipe
12-27-2011, 10:44 AM
yeah that is bad , But Teebs is in his 2 nd year , everyone knew it would take time , with a full TC , preseason etc , those #'s should improve vastlyi don't agree,there should've been some improvement in those games.

peacepipe
12-27-2011, 10:45 AM
They are what they are. Just like how his 7-3 record speaks for itself. It is easy to see why you raider fans hate him.to a streak of luck against bad teams.

Spider
12-27-2011, 10:46 AM
i don't agree,there should've been some improvement in those games.

well this is his first year starting , he will learn to improvise .......

jhns
12-27-2011, 10:48 AM
to a streak of luck against bad teams.

So you have excuses for 7-3 but no one can have excuses for third down numbers?

You raider fans are just morons.

peacepipe
12-27-2011, 10:48 AM
well this is his first year starting , he will learn to improvise .......

that's a cop out,with every game there should be some improvement,wether it's you're 1st yr or not.

peacepipe
12-27-2011, 10:50 AM
So you have excuses for 7-3 but no one can have excuses for third down numbers?

You raider fans are just morons.

I would be offended if wasn't for the fact that i'm a broncos fan.

jhns
12-27-2011, 10:51 AM
that's a cop out,with every game there should be some improvement,wether it's you're 1st yr or not.

Like taking a team to twice as many wins as they had without him?

jhns
12-27-2011, 10:51 AM
I would be offended if wasn't for the fact that i'm a broncos fan.

LOL

Good joke!

Spider
12-27-2011, 10:52 AM
that's a cop out,with every game there should be some improvement,wether it's you're 1st yr or not.

no it isnt ..... not even close to a cop out , it is facts , He will learn to improvise , I know he got nailed for a 28 yard loss , but it is a step in the right direction ,he was trying to make something happen , the kid is learning , just needs some slack

Shotgun Willie
12-27-2011, 10:52 AM
To accurately judge him on third downs you have to take out all the Third down runs that were called ( QB draws, handoffs and called shuffle passes) that did not succeed. Runs that he made on called passes and actual passes are what he should be evaluated on, not all plays.

Interesting. I never saw that qualifier when people bagged on Orton for his 3rd down struggles.

Spider
12-27-2011, 10:53 AM
LOL

Good joke!

dont you have anything else but your a raider fan to offer ? ...... simple minded bastard

jhns
12-27-2011, 10:54 AM
dont you have anything else but your a raider fan to offer ? ...... simple minded bastard

You are <> your...

Spider
12-27-2011, 10:55 AM
You are <> your...

answer the question .. seriously dont you have anything else to bring to the table ? ....

jhns
12-27-2011, 10:57 AM
answer the question .. seriously dont you have anything else to bring to the table ? ....

I'll answer your question after you put a sentence together.

Spider
12-27-2011, 10:58 AM
I'll answer your question after you put a sentence together.

thought so .......... you dont ...

jhns
12-27-2011, 10:59 AM
thought so .......... you dont ...

I knew you couldn't do it. So sad.

ScottXray
12-27-2011, 11:20 AM
Interesting. I never saw that qualifier when people bagged on Orton for his 3rd down struggles.

Third down % was nearly just as bad with Orton, and he is a seven year + player. He also has a real # 1 receiver in Lloyd, something Tebow has had to do without.

Tebow being given a third and 6 ( for example), and having a called QB draw or hand off happened a lot. The One thing he seems to do is whatever the coaches call. Like I said, he is not good enough at recognition to check off the plays yet, although his blitz recognition has gotten better.

When you evaluate QB play ( on THIRD downs) and half the calls are for runs, how do you say that HE is responsible for the lack of conversions on those runs? That is what I meant when I said that you can't blame him for the total third down numbers.

By next year he needs to be checking out of those run plays that are so obviously going to fail against 8 man fronts, and have that check down in his mind when he comes to the line. This year he is being a good soldier and doing what he is ordered to do.

At some point he is going to get frustrated with Fox's game plans which is get a yard ot two and punt, and let the Defense play. The Defense played well during the recent win streak...but without Dawkins and Miller healthy they have failed to stop the Opponents much at all. Without McGahee healthy the Offense has not been able to move the sticks on runs.
If Dawkins is out this week the OFFENSE is going to have to win this game.
A little variation and some imagination on offensive play selection is called for. We will see if Fox / McCoy have it in them.

TonyR
12-27-2011, 11:56 AM
Show me a single argument you have made that favors Tebow. Yhe staff has given him a passing grade for this season. Have you?

Sorry, I'm not lobbying to be president of the Tim Tebow fan club like you. I'm here to talk football and every player is fair game. I've said multiple times that he's done a good job, particularly in the 2nd half/4th quarter, of our wins. I'm also more than willing to admit that he's been hampered some by the talent around him and the play calling. But again, if you're going to give him most of the credit for the wins you also have to give him some of the fault for the losses. You aren't willing to admit you're wrong and do that. He was horrible against Buffalo, there's no way around it. That is not a blanket condemnation of the kid, it's just a statement of fact. Nothing more, nothing less. If you don't like it you should cry and pout about it and maybe somebody will bake you some cookies.

jhns
12-27-2011, 11:59 AM
Sorry, I'm not lobbying to be president of the Tim Tebow fan club like you. I'm here to talk football and every player is fair game. I've said multiple times that he's done a good job, particularly in the 2nd half/4th quarter, of our wins. I'm also more than willing to admit that he's been hampered some by the talent around him and the play calling. But again, if you're going to give him most of the credit for the wins you also have to give him some of the fault for the losses. You aren't willing to admit you're wrong and do that. He was horrible against Buffalo, there's no way around it. That is not a blanket condemnation of the kid, it's just a statement of fact. Nothing more, nothing less. If you don't like it you should cry and pout about it and maybe somebody will bake you some cookies.

Admit that I am wrong about what? That doesn't make any sense.

Notice how you completely avoided the post you responded to? You couldn't give any examples and you didn't answer the question... I wonder why that is. I'm not even sure why you quoted that post.

oubronco
12-27-2011, 12:04 PM
To accurately judge him on third downs you have to take out all the Third down runs that were called ( QB draws, handoffs and called shuffle passes) that did not succeed. Runs that he made on called passes and actual passes are what he should be evaluated on, not all plays.

While this still would be bad it would not be as bad as the numbers mentioned. Since he is inexperienced he is not going to do much in the way of check offs and play changing. Called runs that fail on third downs are on the A; coaching, B: O line , C: Runners.

Regardless as a team thats pathetic

ScottXray
12-28-2011, 10:21 AM
Regardless as a team thats pathetic

I'm not saying it isn't . You are right they must get 3rd down conversions
up to at least a respectable level.
I'm just saying that its not just on the QB,
when Runs are called for on 3rd downs. Our play selection has been a large part of that horrible number. Being sacked, fumbling the exchange, or throwing wildly and inaccurately , or missing open guys is on the QB for sure, and Tebow needs to get better or he will not remain in the backfield at QB. He also needs to improve his ball security (which has been bad or worse the last two weeks.)