The Greed of Big Education

[UltimateHoboW/Shotgun]

http://money.cnn.com/2011/12/20/pf/college/presidents_pay/

NEW YORK (CNNMoney) -- Some private colleges are paying their top executives millions of dollars, at the same time they're hiking tuition prices for students.

Vanderbilt University paid its chancellor, Nicholas Zeppos, $1.9 million in 2009, according to the school's most recent tax filings -- enough for up to 43 students to attend Vanderbilt at current prices. His total pay includes a base salary of $673,002, as well as bonus and other compensation.

383PrintCommentThat same year, Vanderbilt's tuition jumped 4.3%. Since then, the college has hiked tuition more than 3% annually, and now totals $41,332, according to the university.

His overall pay was actually 21.5% lower than it was the previous year, according to the school. Even so, Zeppos' 2009 base was almost four times the average professor's salary of $179,600, the college confirmed.

Zeppos "deserves the compensation he receives," said Mark Dalton, chairman of the college's Board of Trust, in a statement.

"We know that Nick is a highly attractive candidate for other top universities seeking new, vibrant leadership," Dalton said. "We cannot allow another university to recruit him away from Vanderbilt on the basis of compensation or other factors."

5 biggest state tuition hikes
Quinnipiac University, located in Hamden, Conn., is in the same boat. Its president, John Lahey, made $1.2 million in 2009, including base pay of $760,706, according to tax documents. Meanwhile, the college raised tuition and fees nearly 5% that year, and more than 5% each year after. Students now pay $36,130 a year to attend.

Emory University, in Atlanta, and Houston-based Rice University also paid their presidents more than $1 million in 2009 while raising tuition nearly 5%. Both schools have also hiked tuition during the past two years.

As student loan debt continues to grow and students storm campuses across the country to protest the surging cost of tuition, college presidents' big paychecks are adding fuel to the fire, said Sara Hebel, a senior editor at the Chronicle of Higher Education, which recently published its annual survey of CEO compensation among private colleges.

College graduation rates: Income really matters
"At a time when the national conversation is focused on widening income gaps between the wealthiest individuals and everyone else, it is not a surprise that college presidents who earn some of the highest salaries have been targeted by students who face rising tuition," said Hebel.

Of the 519 private colleges with budgets over $50 million that the Chronicle surveyed, 36 presidents earned more than $1 million in 2009. That's up slightly from the 33 presidents who topped $1 million in earnings during the previous year. The Chronicle report, which is based on the most recent tax documents available, looks at compensation including base salary, bonuses and the value of benefits.

Some of the presidents got million-dollar pay because they retired from their schools that year -- and their packages were bulked up with deferred compensation, retirement benefits, sabbatical leave compensation and other one-time payments.

0:00 / 3:02 Debating whether college is 'worth it'
The median total compensation of the 519 presidents at colleges surveyed by the Chronicle was $385,909. That's a 2.2% increase from 2008. The median base salary was $294,489, a 2.8% bump up from the prior year.

Tuition has been increasing at an even faster rate. Private colleges raised tuition by an average of 4.3% for the 2009 school year, according to the National Association of Independent Colleges and Universities. And the hikes have been continuing. Private colleges increased tuition and fees by 4.5% for 2010, and 4.6% for the current school year.

While stated tuition and fees are higher, the actual amount students are paying at some colleges may be decreasing. Some schools are ramping up financial aid at the same time, making the "sticker price" misleading.

For example, while the University of Pennsylvania's published tuition and fees have surged 37% over the past seven years, the average net cost (including financial aid) for students aided by the college has actually decreased about 4%. Only the wealthiest families (those earning annual income of more than $200,000) pay the full sticker price, the university said.

How much will that college really cost?
That said, the president of University of Pennsylvania, Amy Gutmann, still earned a handsome base salary of nearly $900,000 in 2009, the main chunk of her $1.3 million in total compensation, according to the university's tax filings.

And Hebel said that while presidential salaries hold symbolic importance, especially at a time when college is becoming increasingly unaffordable for the average family, the typical president's compensation package actually makes up only 0.4% of a college's budget.

Of course, there are bigger gaps at some schools. While inflated thanks to a one-time retirement payment in 2009, the $1.8 million in compensation given to the president of Beckley, West Virginia-based Mountain State University accounted for 3.5% of the school's entire budget, according to Chronicle data.

[Bob]

I think its great when well educated folks make tons of cash -- but in this case, a significant amount of higher education's cost comes from government grants and loans --I wonder how much that inflates actual demand, and the final price tag?

[epicSocialism4tw]

Meanwhile...it costs 42K + fees per academic year (two semesters) for a student who is a resident of California to attend USC. With Tuition increasing above the rate of inflation every year, you should expect to spend close to 200K for a degree from USC.

You read that right. 200,000 dollars. 200 grand.

The student loan bubble is the next big economic collapse. Why? Because college is unreasonably expensive.

[UltimateHoboW/Shotgun]

My favorite is when these schools offer "Ceramic History of Ancient Switzerland" majors, then charge $200K for them!?!

[pricejj]

I think its great when well educated folks make tons of cash -- but in this case, a significant amount of higher education's cost comes from government grants and loans --I wonder how much that inflates actual demand, and the final price tag?

You got it. All stemming from the creation of the Department of Education under Jimmy Carter in 1979. Since then, education costs have skyrocketed.

[epicSocialism4tw]

My favorite is when these schools offer "Ceramic History of Ancient Switzerland" majors, then charge $200K for them!?!

State schools in Texas can cost you about 20K for a degree. Thats not too bad. Oklahoma is even cheaper in most cases.

But school in the socialist states like California or NY is unbelievably expensive. Washington state is bad. DC is bad. Philly, Boston, and Illinois are also generally expensive.

[Jay3]

Just as easy credit caused housing prices to bubble, easy government-backed student loans have caused tuition costs to bubble.

Any time you subsidize or incentivize credit to large sector of society for something, you take away price sensitivity for the buyer, and prices bloat and bloat.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Zeppos "deserves the compensation he receives," said Mark Dalton, chairman of the college's Board of Trust, in a statement.

"We know that Nick is a highly attractive candidate for other top universities seeking new, vibrant leadership," Dalton said. "We cannot allow another university to recruit him away from Vanderbilt on the basis of compensation or other factors."
Free markets at work? These are, after all, private schools.

[Doggcow]

Meanwhile...it costs 42K + fees per academic year (two semesters) for a student who is a resident of California to attend USC. With Tuition increasing above the rate of inflation every year, you should expect to spend close to 200K for a degree from USC.

You read that right. 200,000 dollars. 200 grand.

The student loan bubble is the next big economic collapse. Why? Because college is unreasonably expensive.

It really is. Luckily I got through just as it was going up.

[ant1999e]

Free markets at work? These are, after all, private schools.

Read post #7.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Thread titles you will never see by Hobo and his fellow Fox Kool-Aid chuggers:

"The Greed of Big Corporations."

[UltimateHoboW/Shotgun]

Thread titles you will never see by Hobo and his fellow Fox Kool-Aid chuggers:

"The Greed of Big Corporations."

Dude!?! The story was from CNN. Punt rag.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Dude!?! The story was from CNN. Punt rag.

Who said it wasn't, dood?

That doesn't mean you're not a Fox Kool-Aid chugger.

[Fedaykin]

State schools in Texas can cost you about 20K for a degree. Thats not too bad. Oklahoma is even cheaper in most cases.

But school in the socialist states like California or NY is unbelievably expensive. Washington state is bad. DC is bad. Philly, Boston, and Illinois are also generally expensive.

The difference has nothing to do with blue vs red states, it's private vs. public. The reason state schools are cheaper (for in state residents) is because the school is subsidized (but only for state residents) by the state.

Someone who'd ever actually been to a university would know this simple fact -- even most people who haven't been aren't as ignorant as you betray yourself to be.

Out of state residents pay rates very similar to private university rates, with differences generally based on the prestige of the University and demand. OK and TX schools are going to be cheaper even for out of staters because no one wants to go to school or teach in TX or OK and those universities are not comparable in quality to institutions like USC (USC generally ranks in the top 25 best U.S. colleges).

Of course, the private schools in TX, like Balor, cost about the same as other private universities.

Also, your numbers, unsurprisingly, are complete bullsh*t.

The a 4 year undergrad degree from TSU is going to cost you about 26,000 in tuition and another 10 grand in misc fees plus $6k a semester in housing and meal plans. Most state universities require freshmen to stay in university housing so the total comes to about ~50k, not 20k.

For out of in-state, the cost is 66,000 in tuition and 10k in fees + housing again.

(http://catsweb.txstate.edu/catsweb/sa/HBFLTRESU_FALL.HTM)

UT Austin, the top state school in TX, costs about 1.5x that
http://www.utexas.edu/tuition/costs.html

Balor, a private university, will cost you 165k+ for an undergraduate degree as well. Balor ranks in at ~75th nationally compared to the ~25th rank of USC.

http://www.baylor.edu/sfs/index.php?id=78779

Finally, even your USC numbers are complete bullsh*t. It's about 21k/yr in tuition not 41k, making it more than comparable to out of state and private rates in TX when you factor in the relative quality of those institutions. USC only charges about 5% more than a much lower quality Balor.

http://www.usc.edu/academics/classes/term_20121/tuition_and_fees.html

[Fedaykin]

ON the subject of the OP, I agree. University costs are way out of hand.

Funny that you wingnuts only seem to care about executive compensation when it's at a class of institution you fear and despise. Your anti-intellecual bias is showing through bright and clear. It's double plus ironic considering your article is complaining about private institutions -- not public institutions.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Read post #7.
I did and my reply is the same. These are private institutions charging what the market bears. I remember my mother screaming bloody murder about College costs in the late 60s.

I have no argument that costs are high, extremely high at some schools. And I don't hold it against administrators who are paid extremely well for their services.

[cutthemdown]

Just like healthcare too much of the money in education goes to the administrators.

[Jay3]

Just like healthcare too much of the money in education goes to the administrators.

And just like healthcare, the price-setting mechanism is badly disrupted. In the case of healthcare, the patient's choice is not effective at controlling prices (due to the heavy use of insurance and institutional third party payers).

To have a truly efficient price-setting mechanism, the "buyer" decision-maker needs to "feel" the full brunt of the price, have good information, and be able to make meaningful choices among several competing sources or providers. Under these conditions, the providers not only control costs and find ways to be efficient and productive, but they offer the goods and services in a package the buyer wants to buy (i.e., efficiently tailored to his needs, without bundling in a big amount over overkill).

In the case of premier college education, the "buyer" is a muddied picture -- it's either a huge package of government-backed loans, or Daddy, or a scholarship, etc. Add to this is the idea that because it's education, there should be no skimping.

This causes a bubble in prices. There is not enough price-sensitivity in higher education. It's sad to think of all the people saddled with monster debt from going to school. Nobody was honest with them -- you wont' make enough to pay that back studying "Women's Studies" or whatever. You shouldn't borrow a huge amount of money to go to school unless it's part a specific plan to becoming a high-earning professional, such as a doctor in med school.

If we all were paying as we go, universities would be forced to find the efficiencies the buyers want, and deliver value to the only market they have.

[epicSocialism4tw]

Finally, even your USC numbers are complete bullsh*t. It's about 21k/yr in tuition not 41k, making it more than comparable to out of state and private rates in TX when you factor in the relative quality of those institutions. USC only charges about 5% more than a much lower quality Balor.

I wouldn't be so haugty and belligerent for someone who doesn't understand what he's looking at.

Here's the link to USC's charges: http://www.usc.edu/dept/publications/cat2011/private/pdf/2011_2012/tuition_and_fees.pdf

Here's what it says:
"Tuition (semester), (Estimated)
Undergraduate Students
(12-18 units).................................$21,081.00
unit basis..........................................1,4 20.00"

Yeah, well...the cost for attending USC starts at 42K per year.

The cost for attending UC San Diego starts at 23K per year.

The cost for attending UC Davis starts at 15K per year.

You want to see what affordable tuition looks like? http://www.utmb.edu/enrollmentservices/about/pdf/Fees1112SHP-BS.pdf
http://academicpartnerships.uta.edu/tuition.asp
http://www.blackcollegesearch.com/texas-colleges/the-university-of-texas-at-el-paso/tuition-aid.htm
http://www.depts.ttu.edu/distancelearning/tuition/


FYI, the UT system keeps its education costs low because it subsidizes itself through its business ventures. Thats because Texas > you. ;D


Oh, and by the way...the idea that USC is a better quality school than Texas is absolutely laughable. Texas has several schools that are ranked among the top in the country.

Texas pwns you. Get over it. :yayaya:

[Jay3]

be cheaper even for out of staters because no one wants to go to school or teach in TX or OK and those universities are not comparable in quality to institutions like USC (USC generally ranks in the top 25 best U.S. colleges).

Fail for apparently not being aware how good the state universities of Texas are (UT and A&M in particular). And even private schools like Rice are better and cheaper than USC. So again, fail.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Fail for apparently not being aware how good the state universities of Texas are (UT and A&M in particular). And even private schools like Rice are better and cheaper than USC. So again, fail.
I guess now someone needs to post the national rankings of higher education institutions in America.

[Garcia Bronco]

If student loans weren't government backed then only banks would be able to loan you money for an education.

What would be the rate you would give an 18 year-old on an unsecured loan?




exactly.

[Jay3]

I guess now someone needs to post the national rankings of higher education institutions in America.

You're apparently grossly unfamiliar with them.

[Jay3]

If student loans weren't government backed then only banks would be able to loan you money for an education.

What would be the rate you would give an 18 year-old on an unsecured loan?




exactly.

And then what would all these bajillion colleges and universities do?


exactly.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

You're apparently grossly unfamiliar with them.
I'm somewhat familiar with them and TX schools do NOT dominate top 25 lists save Rice, where CA schools do. You seem to dispute this so post your national ranking lists to show me I'm wrong.

[Jay3]

I'm somewhat familiar with them and TX schools do NOT dominate top 25 lists save Rice, where CA schools do. You seem to dispute this so post your national ranking lists to show me I'm wrong.

If you have a claim to make, you back it up. If you're a "list" kind of guy, find your own list. University of Texas is one of the best schools in the country, particularly in engineering, which I'm most familiar with from my profession. I didn't gain that opinion from reading lists.

I'm starting to confuse who posted what, and whether it was even you. But someone seemed to be completely blind to that fact, suggesting no one would want to go to school there or teach there.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

I'm starting to confuse who posted what, and whether it was even you. But someone seemed to be completely blind to that fact, suggesting no one would want to go to school there or teach there.
I'm referring to this piece you posted below where you championed TX schools over CA schools. All you have to do is show me since you attended all these schools in both states, right? And if you didn't then I guess we have to depend on national generated comparison lists.

Fail for apparently not being aware how good the state universities of Texas are (UT and A&M in particular). And even private schools like Rice are better and cheaper than USC. So again, fail.

[elsid13]

Before it gets into a pissing contest, there are number of good undergrad public school through out the country. The University System of California has been a torch bear for long time on provide in state high education option to its citizens.

The problem, much like health care, the cost of higher education is raising out of control. Some of it is poor economy, which has state cutting back on contribution to the school, and some of it is the supply and demand of 4 year higher education.

[pricejj]

I'm somewhat familiar with them and TX schools do NOT dominate top 25 lists save Rice, where CA schools do. You seem to dispute this so post your national ranking lists to show me I'm wrong.




Rankings for 2009
Best Medical Research Schools:

1 Harvard University
2 Johns Hopkins University
3 Washington University
4 University of Pennsylvania
5 University of California - S.F.
6 Columbia University
7 Duke University
8 University of Michigan
9 Yale University
10 Cornell University
11 University of Washington
12 Stanford University
13 Baylor College
14 UCLA
15 Vanderbilt University
16 Mayo Medical College
17 University of Pittsburgh
18 University of Texas - Dallas
19 University of Chicago
20 Emory University
21 University of California - San Diego
22 Case Western Reserve
22 Northwestern University
24 University of North Carolina
24 Mount Sinai
25 University of Virginia

No U.S.C. on this list

[Popcorn Sutton]

Free markets at work? These are, after all, private schools.

Education is about as "free market" as the housing market is...The two are quite similar actually. I'm sure when/if the Education bubble bursts it will be blamed on everything but the billions of dollars the government has funneled in. Just like Housing, Washington has thrown money at the problem with no real understanding of the negative effects. The solution to everything, more government spending.

http://www.downsizinggovernment.org/education/higher-ed-subsidies

Overview

The Department of Education spends about $30 billion a year on subsidies for higher education. The bulk of that funding goes toward student aid programs, with the balance going toward grants to educational institutions. In 2008, grants to institutions cost $2.3 billion and aid programs cost $27.6 billion, which included $17.4 billion for student grants, $9.6 billion for student loans, and $0.6 billion for administration.

In the next section, we explore the origins of federal subsidies for higher education and its rapid growth since the 1960s. Following that we focus on the harmful effects of higher education subsidies. Those effects include education cost inflation, increased regulatory control of colleges and universities, and huge fraud and waste in student aid programs.

.........


There are numerous problems with federal subsidies for higher education. For one thing, such subsidies benefit people who will earn higher than average incomes during their careers. Thus, the effect of subsidy programs, in part, is to impose taxes on blue collar workers, who have not attended college, to pay for the tuition of future white-collar professionals. Why should the government subsidize future high earners at the expense of average working people?

Supporters of student aid subsidies argue that higher education is a “public good” that would be underprovided in a free market. However, that is probably not the case. People have a strong incentive to invest in their own education because it will lead to higher earnings. Those with a college degree will earn, on average, 75 percent more during their lifetime than those with just high-school degrees.8 That is a big incentive for people to save or borrow in private markets to pay for their own college costs. There is no “market failure” here.

Interestingly, the main effect of federal student aid programs may not be to transfer wealth from taxpayers to students as mentioned, but from taxpayers to academic institutions. That’s because the rise in student subsidies over the decades appears to have fueled inflation in education costs. Tuition and other college costs have soared as subsidies have risen.

It is matter of supply and demand. More and more Americans have sought a college education, which has pushed prices higher. Ordinarily, such upward pressure would be restrained by consumers’ willingness and ability to pay, but as government subsidies have helped absorb tuition increases, the public’s budget constraint has been lifted.9 Peter Wood, a professor at Boston University noted that federal subsidies “are seen by colleges and universities as money that is there for the taking . . . tuition is set high enough to capture those funds and whatever else we think can be extracted from parents.”10

One can look at average cost data to see the inflationary effect of rising student aid. From 1987 to 2007, there was a strong upward trend in average per-student costs of private and public universities (tuition, fees, and room and board). However, if you subtract from those costs federal grants, loans, and tax benefits, there has been only a modest increase over two decades.

Consider four-year private colleges and universities. The average real cost (in 2006 dollars) per student rose from $18,122 in 1986 to $30,497 in 2006, a 68 percent increase. But students didn’t bear that large increase because of grants, loans, and tax benefits. After these benefits, the cost grew from $10,943 to $14,158, a much more modest 29 percent increase. A similar pattern holds for price increases and public institutions.

Nonetheless, even after taking inflated prices into account, federal aid has probably helped increase student enrollment. Total U.S. college and university enrollment increased about 48 percent between 1986 and 2006. But have those enrollment increases been an entirely good thing?

Many of those additional students may not have been ready, or suited, for college. As evidenced by the rising shares of college students who require remedial work. Further evidence of the problem is that institutions have lowered their standards to adapt to the rise in second-rate students. The American Academy of Arts and Sciences reported that from the mid-1960s to the mid-1990s, college grade point averages grew steadily but Scholastic Aptitude Test scores declined.11 The share of entering college students who complete degrees has also fallen over the decades.12 In addition, while college attendance is up, overall adult literacy has barely budged over the last 15 years.13

With all this in mind, phasing out federal aid would probably not result in reduced accessibility for truly college-ready students. Indeed, college cost inflation induced by federal aid probably hurts low-income families—the people that federal aid was supposed to target—more than others. Further, many private philanthropists support promising, low-income college kids, and they would have greater interest in doing so if the federal government was not in the aid business.

The value of a college education is very real, so young people and their families have a strong incentive to invest in higher education themselves, and private lenders have an incentive to lend to them. By cutting federal subsidies, tuition and related costs would fall as students shopped around for the best deals, which in turn would force schools to reduce their bloated cost structures.

There is plenty of evidence of bloat in academia. Consider congressional earmarks, which often fund dubious projects at colleges and universities. The number and value of educational earmarks has soared in recent years.14 In 2008, earmarks included $140,502 “to maintain healthful interscholastic youth-sports programs” at the University of Maine; $98,000 to build a “Student Wellness and Recreation Center” at Heidelberg College in Ohio; and $1,915,934 for the Charles Rangel Center for Public Service at the City University of New York.

I know, I know.... Conservatives are just a bunch of assholes that don't care about Education. Meanwhile, in the government subsidized program student debt is at an all time high. Students are graduating with a crushing debt burden that could have and should have been much more reasonable.

It amazes me with all the data out there of what happens when the government subsidizes private industry, the costs go up. Massively. Look at Medicare, Housing, Education, etc. etc. They have all followed the same pattern. Hell, our subsidized "private" healthcare costs more than some of the single payer systems that cover everybody. If you subsidize private industry the outcomes have shown over and over and over again, that they favor those at the top.

So, what do we do? Nationalize everything, control prices and wages? The UK currently controls the wages for it's doctors. Is that what you guys want with Education, Banking, Energy and whatever else the government can fix for us? I'm asking an honest question because we don't have free markets and we don't have a nationalized system. We have a hybrid that is running us into the ground.

It's either nationalize everything or actually allow free markets to exist. Please don't mistake what we have today for free markets. We have a system where lawmakers have tried to maintain some semblance of free markets by "subsidizing" them. I.E. Taking taxpayer money and handing it over to private enterprise.

The Fed bailing out greedy bankers on Wall Street is so far from free market it's disgusting. The Housing GSE's, all the Federal Subsidies, etc. etc. are NOT free market. Bailing out GM was NOT free market. Providing healthcare where people don't even shop for rates is NOT free market. Providing healthcare where less than 3% of the claims by the government are actually reviewed is NOT free market. Still to this day, government ownership of large portions of the major banks is NOT free market. Oil subsidies that only benefit a few in the industry is NOT free market. I could go on.

[Jay3]

So, what do we do? Nationalize everything, control prices and wages? The UK currently controls the wages for it's doctors. Is that what you guys want with Education, Banking, Energy and whatever else the government can fix for us? I'm asking an honest question because we don't have free markets and we don't have a nationalized system. We have a hybrid that is running us into the ground.

It's always "we weren't allowed to go far enough" with them.

We should employ principles that work organically, small scale, and accumulate benefit because they make sense and spread by consensus to a large scale, independently. Not "let's wrassle this whole system under a big system of control and dole out awesomeness to everyone."

[Fedaykin]

I wouldn't be so haugty and belligerent for someone who doesn't understand what he's looking at.

Here's the link to USC's charges: http://www.usc.edu/dept/publications/cat2011/private/pdf/2011_2012/tuition_and_fees.pdf

Here's what it says:
"Tuition (semester), (Estimated)
Undergraduate Students
(12-18 units).................................$21,081.00
unit basis..........................................1,4 20.00"


Oops, I misread something you wrote. Regardless, it does nothing to change the point I was making: Comparable schools cost about the same in both red states and blue states. Care you honestly respond to that point or are you going to continue whining like a stuck pig about an irrelevant detail in an attempt to avoid the subject?


Yeah, well...the cost for attending USC starts at 42K per year.

The cost for attending UC San Diego starts at 23K per year.

The cost for attending UC Davis starts at 15K per year.


And.. the cost for attending Balor starts at 21k/year and the cost to attend the best state university (UTA) for an out of state resident is starts at 16k.

What's your point?


You want to see what affordable tuition looks like? http://www.utmb.edu/enrollmentservices/about/pdf/Fees1112SHP-BS.pdf

http://academicpartnerships.uta.edu/tuition.asp


Ha!

Those aren't universities you idiot. They are professional trade schools that're components of a university system. UTMB is a nursing school and the second is a nursing and education school.

The most extensive program I found with a quick search was their fake bachelor's of nursing degree. It's fake because it's a lie of a name put to a 35 credit hour certificate program.

Since your don't know, real bachelor's degrees -- something you can get at a legit university -- consist of 120+ credit hours of work.



http://www.blackcollegesearch.com/texas-colleges/the-university-of-texas-at-el-paso/tuition-aid.htm


Hey look! You found a real university. One that's got its sh*t so together their webpage doesn't even work and has an out of state tuition on par with your quoted figure for UC Davis, a top ranked school.

Great find. Ha!


http://www.depts.ttu.edu/distancelearning/tuition/


Ha!

A distance learning program, and the cost to get a bachelor's still costs 35k+ for a Texas resident and 70k+ for a non resident.

Meanwhile the traditional tuition is in line with other state schools at about 16k/year for out of state students.

http://www.irs.ttu.edu/Tuition/TUITIONFY2009-10.pdf


FYI, the UT system keeps its education costs low because it subsidizes itself through its business ventures. Thats because Texas > you. ;D


Socialists.


Oh, and by the way...the idea that USC is a better quality school than Texas is absolutely laughable. Texas has several schools that are ranked among the top in the country.

Texas pwns you. Get over it. :yayaya:

Oh look, more TX posturing bullsh*t.

US Berkley: #21
USC: #23
UT Austin (first listed TX uni): #45
TX A&M: #58

http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities/page+3

Since that was just the first link that popped up in Google, I took a look at something published by an organization you can't say is biased against TX:

According to Forbes (a staunchly conservative organization) which has a ranking system that factors in tuition cost, 4 CA schools are listed in the top 21 world universities (CA Inst. Tech:1, Stanford: 2, Berkley:10, UCLA:13). Exactly 0 Texas schools are listed. It's also populated by a lot of others blue state schools you have maligned. Hell, even Canada has a school listed by Forbes in the top 21.

http://www.forbes.com/pictures/mkl45eghg/more-photo-galleries/

Texas ain't all that, boy.

[Garcia Bronco]

And then what would all these bajillion colleges and universities do?


exactly.

Most would shutdown because no one would be able to afford to go, nor could they afford the points a private bank would charge for an unsecured loan.

[Fedaykin]

Fail for apparently not being aware how good the state universities of Texas are (UT and A&M in particular). And even private schools like Rice are better and cheaper than USC. So again, fail.

Better according to whom? No list I've seen ranks any Texas school anywhere in the vicinity of several CA schools.

And rice costs (35k/yr just for tuition) are in line with USC costs

[barryr]

What would be more interesting and important is how many graduate from CA schools and stay in CA to help stimulate the economy compared to other states or get out of CA as soon as they can.

[Fedaykin]

Rankings for 2009
Best Medical Research Schools:

1 Harvard University
2 Johns Hopkins University
3 Washington University
4 University of Pennsylvania
5 University of California - S.F.
6 Columbia University
7 Duke University
8 University of Michigan
9 Yale University
10 Cornell University
11 University of Washington
12 Stanford University
13 Baylor College
14 UCLA
15 Vanderbilt University
16 Mayo Medical College
17 University of Pittsburgh
18 University of Texas - Dallas
19 University of Chicago
20 Emory University
21 University of California - San Diego
22 Case Western Reserve
22 Northwestern University
24 University of North Carolina
24 Mount Sinai
25 University of Virginia

No U.S.C. on this list

This is a list based on ranking a universities medical research capabilities -- not it's overall ranking.

Also a university is comprised of many different schools. Some universities have really stellar schools amongst a larger population of average schools. Further, Universities (especially smaller ones) generally focus on one or two areas. There's medical research universities, there's engineering universities, tech universities, liberal arts universities, etc.

[Fedaykin]

What would be more interesting and important is how many graduate from CA schools and stay in CA to help stimulate the economy compared to other states or get out of CA as soon as they can.

That would actually be a really pointless thing to compare. Large popular schools, especially private schools, attract a nationwide and worldwide audience who come to the school because of its quality as lifestyle. They don't necessarily come because they want to live forever in the location of that school.

[Requiem]

What would be more interesting and important is how many graduate from CA schools and stay in CA to help stimulate the economy compared to other states or get out of CA as soon as they can.

California has one of the highest amounts of out-of-state college graduates who move there in the country. Any losses from CA graduates who go elsewhere are replenished by the high volume of outsiders who come there after their studies are complete.

Link. (www.postsecondary.org/last12/130403Migrate.pdf)

[Garcia Bronco]

The point ladies and gents is to educate the population. Even if we lose money on it up front, we gain on the backend. You can get a college education for 10k a semester. A great investment in you own future.

[barryr]

That would actually be a really pointless thing to compare. Large popular schools, especially private schools, attract a nationwide and worldwide audience who come to the school because of its quality as lifestyle. They don't necessarily come because they want to live forever in the location of that school.

Then all schools would be in the same boat, but because CA figures to rate rather low in that regard is why that is unimportant ;D

[Requiem]

The point ladies and gents is to educate the population. Even if we lose money on it up front, we gain on the backend. You can get a college education for 10k a semester. A great investment in you own future.

You can get one for a lot cheaper than that.

[barryr]

California has one of the highest amounts of out-of-state college graduates who move there in the country. Any losses from CA graduates who go elsewhere are replenished by the high volume of outsiders who come there after their studies are complete.

Link. (www.postsecondary.org/last12/130403Migrate.pdf)

A decade old report is evidence? Talking about the here and now, not before the mass exodus of companies from CA.

[Fedaykin]

Then all schools would be in the same boat, but because CA figures to rate rather low in that regard is why that is unimportant ;D

No, it rates low regardless of the state.

[Fedaykin]

The point ladies and gents is to educate the population. Even if we lose money on it up front, we gain on the backend. You can get a college education for 10k a semester. A great investment in you own future.

You can go to a good state school for a lot cheaper than that.

You can also go to a vocational school or college instead. Universities are not vocational schools.

[Requiem]

A decade old report is evidence? Talking about the here and now, not before the mass exodus of companies from CA.

Winning. (http://blogs.payscale.com/content/2009/09/effects-of-retention-rates-on-college.html)

It is what I ****in' do.

[Fedaykin]

And now, to hit the road. Have fun tripping over yourselves trying to compare prestigious globally recognized universities to nursing certificate schools!

[Bob]

My favorite is when these schools offer "Ceramic History of Ancient Switzerland" majors, then charge $200K for them!?!

Its fine if they offer it, and for those who want to pay for it -- just so long as they dont get a waiver to aviod paying back their loan that you and I will have to pay when they get a job at Pizza Hut...

[Bob]

Free markets at work? These are, after all, private schools.

If private groups get a ton of money from government, just like healthcare one can expect those prices to increase.

[Bob]

Thread titles you will never see by Hobo and his fellow Fox Kool-Aid chuggers:

"The Greed of Big Corporations."

I suspect you and Karl have that one covered???

[Bob]

Has the fact that people are under the somewhat misleading notion that it is impossible to make a living without multiple degrees beeen mentioned? Although I have a couple degrees, Joe the Plummer is earning more than I am. If my kid came to me and said they wanted to enter a trade, I would have no problem with that path, while my parents might have popped a gasket assuming that I was throwing away the only chance I had to get ahead in life. This assumption may also be feeding demand for a product that costs (in some cases) more than one's return.

[epicSocialism4tw]

Oops, I misread something you wrote. Regardless, it does nothing to change the point I was making: Comparable schools cost about the same in both red states and blue states. Care you honestly respond to that point or are you going to continue whining like a stuck pig about an irrelevant detail in an attempt to avoid the subject?


Yes.

You need some serious help.

You're the one doing the petulant flailing here.

Education is much cheaper in Texas than it is in California or NY. Those are the facts.

Quit whining.

[El Minion]

The Academic Ranking of World Universities (ARWU (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academic_Ranking_of_World_Universities)), commonly known as the Shanghai ranking, 3 CA schools in the top 10, and 10 CA schools in the top 50 (USC 46th:strong:)

University 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010
United States Harvard University 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1
United States University of California, Berkeley 4 4 4 4 3 3 3 2
United States Stanford University 2 2 2 3 2 2 2 3
United States Massachusetts Institute of Technology 6 5 5 5 5 5 5 4
United Kingdom University of Cambridge 5 3 2 2 4 4 4 5
United States California Institute of Technology 3 6 6 6 6 6 6 6
United States Princeton University 7 7 7 8 8 8 8 7
United States Columbia University 10 9 9 7 7 7 7 8
United States University of Chicago 11 10 10 8 9 9 8 9
United Kingdom University of Oxford 9 8 8 10 10 10 10 10
United States Yale University 8 11 11 11 11 11 11 11
United States Cornell University 12 12 12 12 12 12 12 12
United States University of California, Los Angeles 15 16 16 14 13 13 13 13
United States University of California, San Diego 14 13 13 13 14 14 14 14
United States University of Pennsylvania 18 15 15 15 15 15 15 15
United States University of Washington 16 20 20 17 16 16 16 16
United States University of Wisconsin–Madison 27 18 18 16 17 17 17 17
United States Johns Hopkins University 24 22 22 20 19 20 19 18
United States University of California, San Francisco 13 17 17 18 18 18 18 18
Japan University of Tokyo 19 14 14 19 20 19 20 20
United Kingdom University College London 20 25 25 26 25 22 21 21
United States University of Michigan, Ann Arbor 21 19 19 21 21 21 22 22
Switzerland ETH Zurich 25 27 27 27 27 24 23 23
Japan Kyoto University 30 21 21 22 22 23 24 24
United States University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign 45 25 25 25 26 26 25 25
United Kingdom Imperial College London 17 23 23 23 23 27 26 26
Canada University of Toronto 23 24 24 24 23 24 27 27
United States University of Minnesota, Twin Cities 37 33 33 32 33 28 28 28
United States Northwestern University 29 30 30 33 29 30 30 29
United States Washington University in St. Louis 22 28 28 28 28 29 29 30
United States New York University 55 32 32 29 30 31 32 31
United States University of California, Santa Barbara 26 35 35 35 35 36 35 32
United States University of Colorado 31 34 34 34 34 34 34 32
United States Rockefeller University 28 29 29 30 30 32 32 34
United States Duke University 33 31 31 31 32 33 31 35
Canada University of British Columbia 35 36 36 36 36 35 36 36
United States University of Maryland, College Park 75 57 57 37 37 37 37 36
United States University of Texas at Austin 47 40 40 39 38 39 38 38
France University of Paris 6 (Pierre and Marie Curie University) 65 41 41 45 39 42 40 39
Denmark University of Copenhagen 65 59 59 56 46 45 43 40
United States University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill 52 56 56 59 58 38 39 41
Sweden Karolinska Institutet 39 46 46 48 53 51 50 42
United States Pennsylvania State University 40 43 43 42 43 42 45 43
United Kingdom University of Manchester 89 78 53 50 48 40 41 44
France University of Paris 11 (Paris-Sud 11 University) 72 48 48 64 52 49 43 45
United States University of California, Davis 36 42 42 42 43 48 49 46
United States University of California, Irvine 44 55 55 44 45 46 46 46
United States University of Southern California 40 48 48 47 50 50 46 46
United States University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center at Dallas 34 36 36 38 39 41 48 49
Netherlands Utrecht University 40 39 39 40 42 47 52 50
Switzerland University of Zurich 45 57 57 58 58 53 54 51
Israel Hebrew University of Jerusalem 94 90 90 60 64 65 64 52
Germany University of Munich 48 51 51 51 53 55 55 52
United States Vanderbilt University 32 38 38 41 41 42 41 53
United States Rutgers University 38 44 44 46 47 54 55 54
United Kingdom University of Edinburgh 43 47 47 52 53 55 53 54
Germany Technical University of Munich 60 45 45 54 56 57 57 56
United States University of Pittsburgh 53 48 48 48 49 52 50 56
United States Carnegie Mellon University 61 62 62 56 60 62 59 58
United States Ohio State University 81 73 73 66 61 62 62 59
Australia Australian National University 49 53 53 54 57 59 59 59
Canada McGill University 79 61 61 62 63 60 65 61
Australia University of Melbourne 92 82 82 78 79 73 75 62
United Kingdom King's College London 75 77 77 83 83 81 65 63
Germany University of Heidelberg 58 64 64 66 65 67 63 63
United States Boston University 49 82 82 85 70 71 69 65
United Kingdom University of Bristol 55 60 60 62 62 61 61 66
Sweden Uppsala University 59 74 74 65 66 71 76 66
United States University of Florida 75 67 67 53 51 58 58 68
United States Purdue University 80 71 71 73 68 65 65 69
Netherlands University of Leiden 78 63 63 72 71 76 72 70
France École normale supérieure - Paris 1000 85 93 99 83 73 70 71
Finland University of Helsinki 74 72 72 74 73 68 72 72
Russia Moscow State University 1000 66 66 70 76 70 77 74
Japan Osaka University 53 54 54 61 67 68 71 75
Norway University of Oslo 63 68 68 68 69 64 65 75
United States Boston College 32 15 90 47 83 83 74 77
United States University of Arizona 55 76 76 76 74 77 77 78
Sweden Stockholm University 1000 97 97 84 86 86 88 79
Japan Nagoya University 68 97 97 98 94 1000 82 79
United States Arizona State University 1000 1000 1000 100 96 93 94 81
United States University of Rochester 72 52 52 74 75 73 77 82
United States University of Utah 81 95 95 94 93 79 80 82
Japan Tohoku University 64 69 69 76 76 79 84 84
United Kingdom University of Nottingham 1000 80 80 79 81 82 83 84
Switzerland University of Basel 96 91 91 81 82 87 85 86
United States Michigan State University 87 80 80 80 80 83 86 86
Canada McMaster University 86 88 88 90 87 89 91 88
United Kingdom University of Sheffield 68 69 69 69 72 77 81 88
United States Indiana University - Bloomington 1000 1000 1000 97 90 92 93 90
Belgium University of Ghent 99 1000 1000 1000 1000 1000 1000 90
Australia University of Sydney 1000 1000 1000 1000 1000 97 94 92
Germany University of Bonn 1000 99 99 1000 99 97 98 93
Germany University of Göttingen 91 79 79 85 87 90 90 93
United States Texas A&M University 70 1000 1000 88 91 88 88 95
United States University of Virginia 67 1000 1000 1000 1000 95 91 96
United States Case Western Reserve University 51 65 65 70 78 83 87 97
Denmark Aarhus University 1000 1000 1000 1000 1000 93 97 98
United Kingdom University of Birmingham 1000 93 93 90 92 91 94 99
United States Rice University 61 75 75 87 87 97 99 99
Japan Tokyo Institute of Technology 1000 1000 1000 89 99 1000 1000 1000
United States Tufts University 83 99 99 1000 1000 1000 1000 1000
United States North Carolina State University 99 1000 1000 1000 1000 1000 1000 1000
Germany Free University of Berlin 95 1000 1000 99 83 1000 1000 1000
United States Emory University 99 1000 1000 1000 1000 1000 100 1000
Germany Humboldt University of Berlin 1000 95 95 1000 1000 1000 1000 1000
Sweden Lund University 93 92 92 90 97 97 1000 1000
United States University of Iowa 90 1000 1000 95 97 1000 1000 1000
Netherlands University of Groningen 84 1000 1000 1000 1000 1000 1000 1000
United States University of Illinois at Chicago 96 1000 1000 1000 1000 1000 1000 1000
United States University of California, Riverside 88 1000 1000 1000 1000 1000 1000 1000
Germany University of Freiburg 1000 88 88 93 94 96 1000 1000
France University of Strasbourg 1000 82 82 96 99 1000 1000 1000
Italy Sapienza University of Rome 70 93 97 100 1000 1000 1000 1000
Austria University of Vienna 84 86 86 1000 1000 1000 1000

[El Minion]

Top 20 in the QS World University Rankings (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QS_World_University_Rankings)

2 CA schools





2004 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/THE%E2%80%93QS_World_University_Rankings,_2004) | 2005 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/THE%E2%80%93QS_World_University_Rankings,_2005) | 2006 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/THE%E2%80%93QS_World_University_Rankings,_2006) | 2007 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/THE%E2%80%93QS_World_University_Rankings,_2007) | 2008 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/THE%E2%80%93QS_World_University_Rankings,_2008) | 2009 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/THE%E2%80%93QS_World_University_Rankings,_2009)



<table class="wikitable sortable jquery-tablesorter"><thead></thead> <tbody><tr style="background: none repeat scroll 0% 0% rgb(239, 239, 239);"> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">2011 Rank<sup id="cite_ref-6" class="reference">[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QS_World_University_Rankings#cite_note-6)</sup></td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">2010 Rank<sup id="cite_ref-7" class="reference">[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QS_World_University_Rankings#cite_note-7)</sup></td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">2009 Rank<sup id="cite_ref-8" class="reference">[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QS_World_University_Rankings#cite_note-8)</sup></td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">2008 Rank<sup id="cite_ref-9" class="reference">[10] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QS_World_University_Rankings#cite_note-9)</sup></td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">2007 Rank<sup id="cite_ref-10" class="reference">[11] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QS_World_University_Rankings#cite_note-10)</sup></td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">2006 Rank<sup id="cite_ref-11" class="reference">[12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QS_World_University_Rankings#cite_note-11)</sup></td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">2005 Rank<sup id="cite_ref-12" class="reference">[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QS_World_University_Rankings#cite_note-12)</sup></td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">2004 Rank<sup id="cite_ref-13" class="reference">[14] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QS_World_University_Rankings#cite_note-13)</sup></td> <td style="width: 80px; text-align: center;">Mean Rank</td> <td style="width: 125px; text-align: center;">Mean Rank Position</td> <td style="width: 250px; text-align: center;">University</td> <td style="width: 80px; text-align: center;">Country</td> </tr> <tr> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">1</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">1</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">2</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">3</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">2=</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">2</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">3</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">6</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">2.5</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">2</td> <td style="width: 250px; text-align: center;">University of Cambridge (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Cambridge)</td> <td style="width: 80px; text-align: center;">UK (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom)</td> </tr> <tr> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">2</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">2</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">1</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">1</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">1</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">1</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">1</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">1</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">1.3</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">1</td> <td style="width: 250px; text-align: center;">Harvard University (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvard_University)</td> <td style="width: 80px; text-align: center;">US (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States)</td> </tr> <tr> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">3</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">5</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">9</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">9</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">10</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">4=</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">2</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">3</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">5.6</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">5</td> <td style="width: 250px; text-align: center;">Massachusetts Institute of Technology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massachusetts_Institute_of_Technology)</td> <td style="width: 80px; text-align: center;">US (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States)</td> </tr> <tr> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">4</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">3</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">3</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">2</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">2=</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">4=</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">7</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">8</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">4.1</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">3</td> <td style="width: 250px; text-align: center;">Yale University (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yale_University)</td> <td style="width: 80px; text-align: center;">US (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States)</td> </tr> <tr> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">5</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">6</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">5=</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">4</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">2=</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">3</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">4</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">5</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">4.3</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">4</td> <td style="width: 250px; text-align: center;">University of Oxford (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Oxford)</td> <td style="width: 80px; text-align: center;">UK (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom)</td> </tr> <tr> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">6</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">7</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">5=</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">6</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">5</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">9</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">13</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">14</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">8.1</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">7</td> <td style="width: 250px; text-align: center;">Imperial College London (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_College_London)</td> <td style="width: 80px; text-align: center;">UK (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom)</td> </tr> <tr> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">7</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">4</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">4</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">7</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">9</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">25</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">28</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">34</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">14.8</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">12</td> <td style="width: 250px; text-align: center;">University College London (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_College_London)</td> <td style="width: 80px; text-align: center;">UK (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom)</td> </tr> <tr> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">8</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">8</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">7</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">8</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">7=</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">11</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">17</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">13</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">9.9</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">9</td> <td style="width: 250px; text-align: center;">University of Chicago (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Chicago)</td> <td style="width: 80px; text-align: center;">US (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States)</td> </tr> <tr> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">9</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">12</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">12</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">11</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">14</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">26</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">32</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">28</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">18.0</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">14</td> <td style="width: 250px; text-align: center;">University of Pennsylvania (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Pennsylvania)</td> <td style="width: 80px; text-align: center;">US (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States)</td> </tr> <tr> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">10</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">11</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">11</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">10</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">11</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">12</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">20</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">19</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">13.0</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">11</td> <td style="width: 250px; text-align: center;">Columbia University (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbia_University)</td> <td style="width: 80px; text-align: center;">US (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States)</td> </tr> <tr> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">11</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">13</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">16</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">17</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">19</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">6</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">5</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">7</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">11.8</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">10</td> <td style="width: 250px; text-align: center;">Stanford University (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_University)</td> <td style="width: 80px; text-align: center;">US (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States)</td> </tr> <tr> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">12</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">9</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">10</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">5</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">7=</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">7</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">8</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">4</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">7.8</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">6</td> <td style="width: 250px; text-align: center;">California Institute of Technology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Institute_of_Technology)</td> <td style="width: 80px; text-align: center;">US (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States)</td> </tr> <tr> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">13</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">10</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">8</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">12</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">6</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">10</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">9</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">9</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">9.6</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">8</td> <td style="width: 250px; text-align: center;">Princeton University (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Princeton_University)</td> <td style="width: 80px; text-align: center;">US (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States)</td> </tr> <tr> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">14</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">15</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">19</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">18</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">38=</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">29=</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">36</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">31</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">25.0</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">18</td> <td style="width: 250px; text-align: center;">University of Michigan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Michigan)</td> <td style="width: 80px; text-align: center;">US (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States)</td> </tr> <tr> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">15</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">16</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">15</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">15</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">20=</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">15</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">14</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">23</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">16.6</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">13</td> <td style="width: 250px; text-align: center;">Cornell University (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornell_University)</td> <td style="width: 80px; text-align: center;">US (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States)</td> </tr> <tr> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">16</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">17</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">13</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">13=</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">15</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">23</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">27</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">25</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">18.6</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">15=</td> <td style="width: 250px; text-align: center;">Johns Hopkins University (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johns_Hopkins_University)</td> <td style="width: 80px; text-align: center;">US (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States)</td> </tr> <tr> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">17</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">19</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">18</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">20</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">12</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">21</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">24</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">21</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">19.0</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">16</td> <td style="width: 250px; text-align: center;">McGill University (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McGill_University)</td> <td style="width: 80px; text-align: center;">Canada (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada)</td> </tr> <tr> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">18</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">18</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">20=</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">24</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">42</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">24</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">21</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">10</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">22.1</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">17</td> <td style="width: 250px; text-align: center;">ETH Zurich (Swiss Federal Institute of Technology) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ETH_Zurich)</td> <td style="width: 80px; text-align: center;">Switzerland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switzerland)</td> </tr> <tr> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">19</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">14</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">14</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">13=</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">13</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">13</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">11</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">52</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">18.6</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">15=</td> <td style="width: 250px; text-align: center;">Duke University (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_University)</td> <td style="width: 80px; text-align: center;">US (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States)</td> </tr> <tr> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">20</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">22</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">20=</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">23</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">23</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">33=</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">33=</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">48</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">27.8</td> <td style="width: 50px; text-align: center;">19</td> <td style="width: 250px; text-align: center;">University of Edinburgh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Edinburgh)</td> <td style="width: 80px; text-align: center;">UK (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom)</td></tr></tbody></table>

[El Minion]

Times Higher Education World University Rankings (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Times_Higher_Education_World_University_Rankings)

4 CA schools

<table class="wikitable sortable jquery-tablesorter"><thead></thead> <tbody><tr> <td>2011–2012
University
Ranking<sup id="cite_ref-19" class="reference">[20] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Times_Higher_Education_World_University_Rankings#c ite_note-19)</sup></td> <td>2010-2011
Reputation
Ranking<sup id="cite_ref-20" class="reference">[21] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Times_Higher_Education_World_University_Rankings#c ite_note-20)</sup></td> <td>Institution</td> <td>Country</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1</td> <td>10</td> <td>California Institute of Technology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Institute_of_Technology)</td> <td>United States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States)</td> </tr> <tr> <td>2=</td> <td>1</td> <td>Harvard University (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvard_University)</td> <td>United States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States)</td> </tr> <tr> <td>2=</td> <td>5</td> <td>Stanford University (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_University)</td> <td>United States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States)</td> </tr> <tr> <td>4</td> <td>6</td> <td>University of Oxford (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Oxford)</td> <td>United Kingdom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom)</td> </tr> <tr> <td>5</td> <td>7</td> <td>Princeton University (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Princeton_University)</td> <td>United States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States)</td> </tr> <tr> <td>6</td> <td>3</td> <td>University of Cambridge (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Cambridge)</td> <td>United Kingdom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom)</td> </tr> <tr> <td>7</td> <td>2</td> <td>Massachusetts Institute of Technology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massachusetts_Institute_of_Technology)</td> <td>United States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States)

</td> </tr> <tr> <td>8</td> <td>11</td> <td>Imperial College London (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_College_London)</td> <td>United Kingdom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom)</td> </tr> <tr> <td>9</td> <td>15</td> <td>University of Chicago (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Chicago)</td> <td>United States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States)

</td> </tr> <tr> <td>10</td> <td>4</td> <td>University of California, Berkeley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_California,_Berkeley)</td> <td>United States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States)</td> </tr> <tr> <td>11</td> <td>9</td> <td>Yale University (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yale_University)</td> <td>United States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States)</td> </tr> <tr> <td>12</td> <td>23</td> <td>Columbia University (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbia_University)</td> <td>United States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States)

</td> </tr> <tr> <td>13</td> <td>12</td> <td>University of California, Los Angeles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_California,_Los_Angeles)</td> <td>United States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States)

</td> </tr> <tr> <td>14</td> <td>14</td> <td>Johns Hopkins University (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johns_Hopkins_University)</td> <td>United States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States)</td> </tr> <tr> <td>15</td> <td>24</td> <td>ETH Zurich (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ETH_Zurich)</td> <td>Switzerland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switzerland)</td> </tr> <tr> <td>16</td> <td>22</td> <td>University of Pennsylvania (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Pennsylvania)</td> <td>United States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States)</td> </tr> <tr> <td>17</td> <td>19=</td> <td>University College London (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_College_London)</td> <td>United Kingdom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom)</td> </tr> <tr> <td>18</td> <td>13</td> <td>University of Michigan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Michigan)</td> <td>United States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States)

</td> </tr> <tr> <td>19</td> <td>17</td> <td>University of Toronto (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Toronto)</td> <td>Canada (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada)

</td> </tr> <tr> <td>20</td> <td>16</td> <td>Cornell University (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornell_University)</td> <td>United States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States)</td></tr></tbody></table>

[epicSocialism4tw]

Those rankings are all garbage.

It is well known in admissions committees that they are impartial and use specious standards for evaluation.

When you consider a school, you consider the strength of the department you want to graduate from. You consider the cost and the peripheral benefits. You don't use one of those ranking rags unless you don't know what you're doing.

[elsid13]

Those rankings are all garbage.

It is well known in admissions committees that they are impartial and use specious standards for evaluation.

When you consider a school, you consider the strength of the department you want to graduate from. You consider the cost and the peripheral benefits. You don't use one of those ranking rags unless you don't know what you're doing.

Translation: I have nothing so I will make **** up, like Dirk is the greatest power forward to ever play the game. UT and TAMA are good undergrad schools, but the California system are just as good or better.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Translation: I have nothing so I will make **** up...

That's epicPinhead's SOP in a nutshell.

Given his role as an apologist for a discredited ideology and a shill for a laughing stock of a political party, I suppose his options are limited.

Ha!

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Wow!

El Minion mopping the floor with epicLiar.

Nice work! :thumbsup:

[Fedaykin]

Yes.

You need some serious help.

You're the one doing the petulant flailing here.

Education is much cheaper in Texas than it is in California or NY. Those are the facts.

Quit whining.

And you're still unable to respond with anything but ad hominems and other nonsense. Do you have even a single honest bone in your body?

Trying to make a comparison between internationally recognized major universities and vocational schools is beyond the absurd.

What next shall we compare bicycles to Ferraris?