Panic at the White House? Gloomy Goldman Sachs sees high unemployment, possible recession

[UltimateHoboW/Shotgun]

http://blogs.reuters.com/james-pethokoukis/2011/07/16/panic-at-the-white-house-gloomy-goldman-sachs-sees-high-unemployment-possible-recession/

Last night in a new report, Democrat-friendly Goldman Sachs dropped an economic bomb on President Obama’s chances for reelection (bold is mine):

Following another week of weak economic data, we have cut our estimates for real GDP growth in the second and third quarter of 2011 to 1.5% and 2.5%, respectively, from 2% and 3.25%. Our forecasts for Q4 and 2012 are under review, but even excluding any further changes we now expect the unemployment rate to come down only modestly to 8¾% at the end of 2012.

The main reason for the downgrade is that the high-frequency information on overall economic activity has continued to fall substantially short of our expectations. … Some of this weakness is undoubtedly related to the disruptions to the supply chain—specifically in the auto sector—following the East Japan earthquake. By our estimates, this disruption has subtracted around ½ percentage point from second-quarter GDP growth. We expect this hit to reverse fully in the next couple of months, and this could add ½ point to third-quarter GDP growth. Moreover, some of the hit from higher energy costs is probably also temporary, as crude prices are down on net over the past three months. But the slowdown of recent months goes well beyond what can be explained with these temporary effects. … final demand growth has slowed to a pace that is typically only seen in recessions. .. Moreover, if the economy returns to recession—not our forecast, but clearly a possibility given the recent numbers …

Alarms bells must be ringing all over Obamaland today. Unemployment on Election Day about where it is right now? Sputtering — if not stalling — economic growth? To many Americans that would sound like the car is back in the ditch — if it was ever out. Maybe Goldman is wrong, but economists across Wall Street have been growing more bearish.

And recall that back in August of 2009, the White House — after having a half year to view the economy and its $800 billion stimulus response — made an astoundingly optimistic forecast. Starting in 2011, with Obamanomics fully in gear and the recession over, growth would take off. GDP would rise 4.3 percent in 2011, followed by … 4.3 percent growth in 2012 and 2013, too! And 2014? Another year of 4.0 percent growth. Off to the races, America.

Even in its forecast earlier this year, Team Obama said it was looking for 3.5 percent GDP growth in 2012, followed by 4.4 percent in 2013, 4.3 percent in 2014.

Goldman Sachs doesn’t have to tell you things are bad. I don’t have to tell you things are bad. Everybody knows things are bad. Unemployment is at 9.2 percent (11.4 percent if the official labor force hadn’t collapsed since 2008 and 16.2 percent if you include discouraged and underemployed workers.) Moreover, the economy grew at just 1.9 percent in the first quarter of this year and may have grown less than 2 percent in the second. Wages and income are going nowhere fast.

When will the White House signal a change of economic direction? Will cutting tax rates and regulation ever make it on the agenda? That may be the only way Obama can win another term. And time is running short.

[Pony Boy]

Hope and change

[Rigs11]

wats the rightards plan to avoid this? more tax cuts for the rich?

[Rohirrim]

The stupidity around here boggles the mind. Goldman Sachs is "democrat friendly?" That's a laugh. They are money and power friendly. They had just as many operatives in the Bush WH as they have in Obama's, if not more. Anyway, this whole media story is complete bull****. What's really happening? Jobs are flooding out of the U.S. It's not going to change. Nothing is going to stop it. Obama doesn't have the power to stop it. No president would.

People have less to spend. Ten years from now, they will have ten times less to spend. If we don't take action to stop the hemorrhaging of jobs and the plummeting of wages our "consumer" economy will go belly up (except for the top 1% who are richer now than any class in the history of mankind - and getting richer every day). Our policies are killing us. Instead of protecting jobs, they encourage dumping jobs as if they were cheap exports. The corporations that own our government (both parties) will never allow these policies (trade, tax, etc.) to be changed. Ergo, we are locked in a death spiral. At some point the consumer economy completely crashes. Then, everybody goes down in flames, including the 1 percenters.

[Rigs11]

The stupidity around here boggles the mind. Goldman Sachs is "democrat friendly?" That's a laugh. They are money and power friendly. They had just as many operatives in the Bush WH as they have in Obama's, if not more. Anyway, this whole media story is complete bull****. What's really happening? Jobs are flooding out of the U.S. It's not going to change. Nothing is going to stop it. Obama doesn't have the power to stop it. No president would.

People have less to spend. Ten years from now, they will have ten times less to spend. If we don't take action to stop the hemorrhaging of jobs and the plummeting of wages our "consumer" economy will go belly up (except for the top 1% who are richer now than any class in the history of mankind - and getting richer every day). Our policies are killing us. Instead of protecting jobs, they encourage dumping jobs as if they were cheap exports. The corporations that own our government (both parties) will never allow these policies (trade, tax, etc.) to be changed. Ergo, we are locked in a death spiral. At some point the consumer economy completely crashes. Then, everybody goes down in flames, including the 1 percenters.

Socialist!Ha!

[pricejj]

The stupidity around here boggles the mind. Goldman Sachs is "democrat friendly?" That's a laugh. They are money and power friendly. They had just as many operatives in the Bush WH as they have in Obama's, if not more. Anyway, this whole media story is complete bull****. What's really happening? Jobs are flooding out of the U.S. It's not going to change. Nothing is going to stop it. Obama doesn't have the power to stop it. No president would.

People have less to spend. Ten years from now, they will have ten times less to spend. If we don't take action to stop the hemorrhaging of jobs and the plummeting of wages our "consumer" economy will go belly up (except for the top 1% who are richer now than any class in the history of mankind - and getting richer every day). Our policies are killing us. Instead of protecting jobs, they encourage dumping jobs as if they were cheap exports. The corporations that own our government (both parties) will never allow these policies (trade, tax, etc.) to be changed. Ergo, we are locked in a death spiral. At some point the consumer economy completely crashes. Then, everybody goes down in flames, including the 1 percenters.

The manufacturing sector could be revitalized by significantly lowering the corporate tax rate and closing the loopholes, while repealing Obamacare and separating health insurance from employment. At some point, the government is going to have to do everything necessary to lower the cost of doing business in the U.S.

[Tombstone RJ]

The stupidity around here boggles the mind. Goldman Sachs is "democrat friendly?" That's a laugh. They are money and power friendly. They had just as many operatives in the Bush WH as they have in Obama's, if not more. Anyway, this whole media story is complete bull****. What's really happening? Jobs are flooding out of the U.S. It's not going to change. Nothing is going to stop it. Obama doesn't have the power to stop it. No president would.

People have less to spend. Ten years from now, they will have ten times less to spend. If we don't take action to stop the hemorrhaging of jobs and the plummeting of wages our "consumer" economy will go belly up (except for the top 1% who are richer now than any class in the history of mankind - and getting richer every day). Our policies are killing us. Instead of protecting jobs, they encourage dumping jobs as if they were cheap exports. The corporations that own our government (both parties) will never allow these policies (trade, tax, etc.) to be changed. Ergo, we are locked in a death spiral. At some point the consumer economy completely crashes. Then, everybody goes down in flames, including the 1 percenters.

what exactly is BO doing to improve things like manufacturing in the US? BO has had 3 years to turn the economy around and its worse than ever in the business I'm in. I see the impact of the economy in my business, we are down 70%+ in sales since 2007 and it's not looking like anything is going to change any time soon.

[alkemical]

The manufacturing sector could be revitalized by significantly lowering the corporate tax rate and closing the loopholes, while repealing Obamacare and separating health insurance from employment. At some point, the government is going to have to do everything necessary to lower the cost of doing business in the U.S.

http://www.sott.net/articles/show/238790-30-Major-U-S-Corporations-Paid-More-to-Lobby-Congress-Than-Income-Taxes-2008-2010

Companies' Laying Off Workers While Receiving Tax Rebates, Raising Executive Pay

Among the 20 companies who paid zero or less in state corporate taxes are utility provider Pepco Holdings, the pharmaceutical company Baxter International, and Intel Corporation (INTC).

Baxter International (BAX) and Intel are among the corporations that Public Campaign reports did not did not pay federal incomes during the same three-year period.

Of those companies, General Electric (GE) spent the most on lobbying, expending about $84 million on lobbying while paying a federal income tax rate of negative 45 percent on more than $10 billion in U.S. profits. PG&E Corp. followed General Electric, spending almost $79 million on lobbying, while paying a negative 21 percent tax rate on $4.8 billion of U.S profits, and Verizon Communications, which spent $52 billion on lobbying while paying a negative 3 percent tax rate on $32.5 billion of profits.

A negative effective tax rate means that a company enjoyed a tax rebate, usually obtained by carrying back excess tax deductions and credits to an earlier year, thereby allowing the company to receive a tax rebate check, according to Citizens for Tax Justice.

U.S. House Deputy Whip Kevin Brady, R-Tex., is currently making a last-ditch effort to include a corporate tax repatriation holiday on legislation to extend a payroll tax cut, an extension that Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., said could put an extra $1,500 into the pockets of middle class families each year. While those in favor of the corporate tax repatriation provision -- which would give U.S. businesses a temporary tax break on as much as $1 trillion in overseas income -- insist it would boost the nation's sluggish economy and make it easier for corporations to create jobs, the Congressional Budget Office reports tax repatriation holidays ranks dead last among 13 policy options for creating jobs. The CBO estimates that over the 2012-2013 period, a repatriation holiday would, at best, create the equivalent of one-full time job for every $1 million in federal costs.

Even while dodging most of their state and federal taxes between 2008 and 2010, Verizon (VZ) laid off more than 21,000 U.S. employees, while Boeing, Wells Fargo, General Electric, American Electric Power, and FedEx also let go of thousands of workers. Because companies can be reluctant to make data changes in U.S. employment available, Public Campaign reports it was not able to find up-to-date employment statistics for many of the companies evaluated in the report.

Moreover, as it was laying off employees, General Electric gave their top executives a 27 percent pay raise between 2008 and 2010 -- executives received more than $75 million in compensation in 2010. Wells Fargo increased executive pay by a whopping 180 percent, upping executive compensation from $17.8 million in 2008 to almost $50 million in 2010, while Boeing, FedEx and American Electric Power also instituted lavish executive pay raises while laying off thousands of lower-level workers.


It seems to be pretty low already.

[alkemical]

what exactly is BO doing to improve things like manufacturing in the US? BO has had 3 years to turn the economy around and its worse than ever in the business I'm in. I see the impact of the economy in my business, we are down 70%+ in sales since 2007 and it's not looking like anything is going to change any time soon.

If Obama's the only one to blame for the economy, he's getting manufacturing back. ;) (satire?)

http://finance.fortune.cnn.com/2011/06/29/return-of-american-manufacturing/

http://www.aier.org/research/economic-bulletins/2500-the-return-of-us-manufacturing

http://bizmology.hoovers.com/2011/12/01/is-manufacturing-returning-to-the-us/



http://www.disinfo.com/2011/04/united-states-becomes-swedens-third-world-outsourcing-destination/

When a large multinational corporation is looking to cut costs, what does it do? Send jobs overseas to a less modernized country — one where salaries are a fraction of those at home and the law provides few rights or protections for workers — and watch the profits roll in. We are speaking, of course, of Sweden’s IKEA, and Virginia, USA. Is this our economic future? Current reports:

Here we are, folks. Sweden’s third-world sweatshop. IKEA takes advantage of the destruction to our economy caused by outsourcing jobs by outsourcing their own jobs to the U.S.–and paying less than the workers in Sweden get ($8 in the U.S., $19 + better benefits in Sweden, for making the same products), about 50% of what the median income is in Danville (the town where IKEA’s sweatshop is located), with much stricter and abusive practices in the Danville facility, and with many less rights.

They even use the same reason for the poor pay that American corporations use for their poor pay of their own third-world sweatshops in India:

(quoting from the article): ” …She acknowledged the pay gap between factories in Europe and the U.S. ‘That is related to the standard of living and general conditions in the different countries,’ Steen said.”



;)

[Tombstone RJ]

http://www.sott.net/articles/show/238790-30-Major-U-S-Corporations-Paid-More-to-Lobby-Congress-Than-Income-Taxes-2008-2010




It seems to be pretty low already.

Again, close the loopholes, thats how these companies do this crap. Close the loopholes yet lower the tax rate effectively collecting 100% of the tax revenue.

Lower it from 35% to 25% but collect 100% of the taxes. What the hell is so hard about that?

[alkemical]

Again, close the loopholes, thats how these companies do this crap. Close the loopholes yet lower the tax rate effectively collecting 100% of the tax revenue.

Lower it from 35% to 25% but collect 100% of the taxes. What the hell is so hard about that?


The loopholes allow for a lower tax rate, that can be used to create more jobs.

[Tombstone RJ]

The loopholes allow for a lower tax rate, that can be used to create more jobs.

Again, these companies will have no excuse for not creating jobs when the tax rate is lowered. Just close all loopholes, collect 100% and give tax incentives to those companies who are creating manufacturing jobs. So you lower the rates, and yes if you are a company that is just creating more and more jobs via manufacturing then you might also give them additional tax breaks.

But close the loopholes. The loopholes are a cancer.

[alkemical]

Again, these companies will have no excuse for not creating jobs when the tax rate is lowered. Just close all loopholes, collect 100% and give tax incentives to those companies who are creating manufacturing jobs. So you lower the rates, and yes if you are a company that is just creating more and more jobs via manufacturing then you might also give them additional tax breaks.

But close the loopholes. The loopholes are a cancer.

How do they have an excuse now? The Loopholes allow for a tax rate lower than 35%. Wal*Mart paid some of the highest rates, yet they are always hiring. GE Paid some of the lowest rates, and they're opening a new facility in CO.

Wouldn't this be a tax hike, on - the "job creators"? Wouldn't this tax hike, be passed onto consumers?

No matter how many times you repeat yourself, i'm not getting an answer:

What's the REAL tax rate. it's obviously not 35% - should we know more about the system, and how it works in order to make the best decision for improving the business culture here?

[Tombstone RJ]

How do they have an excuse now? The Loopholes allow for a tax rate lower than 35%. Wal*Mart paid some of the highest rates, yet they are always hiring. GE Paid some of the lowest rates, and they're opening a new facility in CO.

Wouldn't this be a tax hike, on - the "job creators"? Wouldn't this tax hike, be passed onto consumers?

No matter how many times you repeat yourself, i'm not getting an answer:

What's the REAL tax rate. it's obviously not 35% - should we know more about the system, and how it works in order to make the best decision for improving the business culture here?

Not really.

Other countries use lower corporate tax rates to entice companies to set up shop so this would entice companies to come to the USA to set up shop. A lot of business is done by smaller companies that will benefit greatly from lower tax rates. A business would consider moving to the USA if they knew that their tax rate would be for example 20%.

[alkemical]

Not really.

Other countries use lower corporate tax rates to entice companies to set up shop so this would entice companies to come to the USA to set up shop. A lot of business is done by smaller companies that will benefit greatly from lower tax rates. A business would consider moving to the USA if they knew that their tax rate would be for example 20%.

They don't have to move to the USA - GE is an example of that.

[Rigs11]

Again, close the loopholes, thats how these companies do this crap. Close the loopholes yet lower the tax rate effectively collecting 100% of the tax revenue.

Lower it from 35% to 25% but collect 100% of the taxes. What the hell is so hard about that?

companies pay on average around 14% after deductions/loopholes. You are advocating an increase with your plan that doesn't fly with the right wing that you associate with.

[alkemical]

companies pay on average around 14% after deductions/loopholes. You are advocating an increase with your plan that doesn't fly with the right wing that you associate with.

Do you have any source that I may look at for that #, you know me - i'm on a questions asking kick. :)

This is more what i'm trying to find - the REAL #'s.

[Rohirrim]

The manufacturing sector could be revitalized by significantly lowering the corporate tax rate and closing the loopholes, while repealing Obamacare and separating health insurance from employment. At some point, the government is going to have to do everything necessary to lower the cost of doing business in the U.S.

Bull****. That's just more of the same from the Right. Get rid of taxes. Get rid of environmental regulations. Get rid of labor laws. Get rid of health care. In other words, turn the workers of America into third world laborers. Let's take us all back to the quality of life workers had in the 1890s. Live in shacks owned by the companies who don't even pay their workers, they simply give them credits at the company store. And when you end up indebted to the company store, they own your soul. And if you strike, they send out thugs with bats and machine guns to slaughter the workers. Been there, done that.

Why does the right despise TR and FDR? Because they took down the robber baron world and replaced it with the America of the 50s and the richest middle class in history. And since the 30s, the Right Wing has been attacking the legislation and taxation and programs that built that middle class haven. And now, they've succeeded. But they're not satisfied. They want to pollute at will (if you don't believe that, read the bills the Koch Bros are trying to push through). They want to hire laborers for nothing and give them nothing besides a **** wage (Walmart). etc etc

In other words, they don't give a **** about their country. They only give a **** about money.

[Rigs11]

Do you have any source that I may look at for that #, you know me - i'm on a questions asking kick. :)

This is more what i'm trying to find - the REAL #'s.

here is one http://wallstcheatsheet.com/stocks/u-s-corporations-paying-fraction-of-statutory-income-tax-rate.html/

[peacepipe]

The manufacturing sector could be revitalized by significantly lowering the corporate tax rate and closing the loopholes, while repealing Obamacare and separating health insurance from employment. At some point, the government is going to have to do everything necessary to lower the cost of doing business in the U.S.

BS,cause no matter how low taxes are,they'll still ship jobs overseas. they rather pay some kid in india 50 cents a day then pay $7 hr here.

[elsid13]

No matter what we do mass labor intensive manufacturing is not coming back to the United States. It not cost effective and US M&P sector has automated most of the lines to increase efficiency and reduce cost. There is a reason that US is a top 5 in productive in the world, (but that is failing as we decrease education, don't rebuild our infrastructure spending and retention of US educated foreigner).

[Tombstone RJ]

here is one http://wallstcheatsheet.com/stocks/u-s-corporations-paying-fraction-of-statutory-income-tax-rate.html/

So basically Reagan closed the loopholes effectively increasing the corporate tax rate in the 1980s but for some reason we can't do this now??

Lower the tax rate and close the loopholes, yes, many corporations would end up paying more in taxes but if you close the loopholes and and have a rate of say 18% then it will only marginally affect current companies (if at all) and it will encourage other companies to move to the US.

Big companies won't have to pay millions for lobbies and tax accounting and they will only pay 18%.

win, win.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

BS,cause no matter how low taxes are,they'll still ship jobs overseas. they rather pay some kid in india 50 cents a day then pay $7 hr here.

For all of you people here that don't understand how corporate America works, read above.
It doesn't matter how LOW corporate taxes are made, the U.S. CANNOT compete with foreign slum labor.

[epicSocialism4tw]

No matter what we do mass labor intensive manufacturing is not coming back to the United States. It not cost effective and US M&P sector has automated most of the lines to increase efficiency and reduce cost. There is a reason that US is a top 5 in productive in the world, (but that is failing as we decrease education, don't rebuild our infrastructure spending and retention of US educated foreigner).

"Decrease education", "dont rebuild our infrastructure" and "retention of the US educated foreigner"?

Those are like the lobotomized far left talking points.

They dont mean anything.

[UltimateHoboW/Shotgun]

Why you talking about taxes?

[mhgaffney]

The phrase "Democratic friendly Goldman..." made me gag.

[alkemical]

here is one http://wallstcheatsheet.com/stocks/u-s-corporations-paying-fraction-of-statutory-income-tax-rate.html/

Thanks.

[Tombstone RJ]

For all of you people here that don't understand how corporate America works, read above.
It doesn't matter how LOW corporate taxes are made, the U.S. CANNOT compete with foreign slum labor.

One of the best reasons for moving to the USA as opposed to third world countries where labor is cheap is that many (if not all) of these countries have corrupt governments at the local level and up.

In the USA, you don't have to continually payoff officials to insure your business continues. You have laws that you have to abide by and higher cost of labor but the sky is the limit. You cannot say the same thing if you take a chance going to some third world country where labor is cheap because people are exploited and corruption is rampant.

just saying...

[mosca]

For all of you people here that don't understand how corporate America works, read above.
It doesn't matter how LOW corporate taxes are made, the U.S. CANNOT compete with foreign slum labor.
Precisely. This is one of the the main problems. No one in government wants to address it. Non-binding resolutions and "speaking out" against poor labor conditions in other countries does nothing. Meanwhile, the megacorporations continue to employ people for nickles on the dollar and sell that crap here in the U.S. Some say that we can't go to an isolationist trade policy, but something needs changing.

[Tombstone RJ]

Precisely. This is one of the the main problems. No one in government wants to address it. Non-binding resolutions and "speaking out" against poor labor conditions in other countries does nothing. Meanwhile, the megacorporations continue to employ people for nickles on the dollar and sell that crap here in the U.S. Some say that we can't go to an isolationist trade policy, but something needs changing.

China is buying a clue. Their labor rates are going up, I know this because we buy things direct from China and they are well, difficult to work with.

Isn't it ironic how capitalism is working so well in a "Communist" state. So well in fact that the people now have money and know that their time and skills are worth more than $.50 an hour?

But the libtards will claim capitalism doesn't work. Really? I'd love to know how it's not working in China.

[pricejj]

It seems to be pretty low already.

Why do you keep only focusing on the tax rate paid by a fraction of Fortune 500 companies (GE, Pepsi)? Do you realize that there are greater than 27 million businesses in the U.S.? Your sheer insistence upon focusing on a few multinational corporations when considering nationwide job creation in the U.S. is laughable. The mere fact that you won't even consider that lowering corporate rate for the other 99.99% of businesses in the U.S., would be beneficial, is truly mind boggling.

BS,cause no matter how low taxes are,they'll still ship jobs overseas. they rather pay some kid in india 50 cents a day then pay $7 hr here.

Oh really? Why has India lowered their corporate tax rate? Why has China, Japan, and every single country in Europe lowered their corporate tax rate over the last 20 years? If it doesn't matter, why is every country around the world lowering the corporate tax rate, except the U.S.?

Bull****. That's just more of the same from the Right. Get rid of taxes. Get rid of environmental regulations. Get rid of labor laws. Get rid of health care. In other words, turn the workers of America into third world laborers. Let's take us all back to the quality of life workers had in the 1890s. Live in shacks owned by the companies who don't even pay their workers...

Your posts are completely false, worthless, and so utterly dramatic that they are not even worth responding to.

here is one http://wallstcheatsheet.com/stocks/u-s-corporations-paying-fraction-of-statutory-income-tax-rate.html/

A snippet from the report-
“If we are going to get our nation’s fiscal house in order, increasing corporate income taxes should play an important role."
The author is clueless, promoting a Socialist agenda, and wishing for pie-in-the-sky policies that will never happen.


Why is Bill Clinton in favor of lowering the corporate tax rate and closing the loopholes?

Bill Clinton, July 4, 2011 -

"We should cut the rate to 25 percent, or whatever's competitive, and eliminate a lot of the deductions so that we still get a fair amount [of revenue], and there's not so much variance in what the corporations pay."

http://www.taxfoundation.org/blog/show/27430.html

You Democrats/Socialists are so completely clueless it baffles the mind. Every single developed nation around the world has lowered their corporate tax rate over the last 20 years. Both Democrats and Republicans agree that the corporate tax rate needs to be lowered and the loopholes need to be closed. I will supremely enjoy taking you all behind the woodshed when the corporate tax rate is lowered within the next couple of years. That's it. I'm done with this crap, you guys are a waste of time.

CAN'T WAIT

[alkemical]

China is buying a clue. Their labor rates are going up, I know this because we buy things direct from China and they are well, difficult to work with.

Isn't it ironic how capitalism is working so well in a "Communist" state. So well in fact that the people now have money and know that their time and skills are worth more than $.50 an hour?

But the libtards will claim capitalism doesn't work. Really? I'd love to know how it's not working in China.

They also hold their politicians a higher degree of accountability than is done here with some cases, anyway

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18911849/ns/world_news-asia_pacific/t/chinas-top-drug-regulator-gets-death-sentence/

BEIJING — China’s former top drug regulator was sentenced to death Tuesday for taking bribes to approve untested medicines, as the country’s main quality control agency announced its first recall system targeting unsafe food products.


They are also investing in innovation in their citizens -


They are also having a huge problem with pollution due to lax environmental regulations.

They have their own problems for sure.

[alkemical]

Precisely. This is one of the the main problems. No one in government wants to address it. Non-binding resolutions and "speaking out" against poor labor conditions in other countries does nothing. Meanwhile, the megacorporations continue to employ people for nickles on the dollar and sell that crap here in the U.S. Some say that we can't go to an isolationist trade policy, but something needs changing.

The Chinese are at war with the USA - just not on the battlefield. They are doing it via economics & via the "legal" route (UN, etc etc).

How do we compete?

[alkemical]

Why do you keep only focusing on the tax rate paid by a fraction of Fortune 500 companies (GE, Pepsi)? Do you realize that there are greater than 27 million businesses in the U.S.? Your sheer insistence upon focusing on a few multinational corporations when considering nationwide job creation in the U.S. is laughable. The mere fact that you won't even consider that lowering corporate rate for the other 99.99% of businesses in the U.S., would be beneficial, is truly mind boggling.




if you'd dig into it - you'd see that it's more than the top few, but you don't and won't. You've already proven to everyone that you have your mind made up, and you don't care to understand the real problem(s).

See, lots of people like to regurgitate talking points - but it doesn't mean they are facts. Until I can find out what the real #'s are - I will keep asking questions and trying to find out.

Wouldn't you like to know as much about the situation and data before making decisions? Or are you happy with what you know?

If you've already made your mind up, and really don't care to find out the bigger picture - well, that's part of the problem of how we got into the mess we're in: by being misinformed and making poor decisions.

[Tombstone RJ]

if you'd dig into it - you'd see that it's more than the top few, but you don't and won't. You've already proven to everyone that you have your mind made up, and you don't care to understand the real problem(s).

See, lots of people like to regurgitate talking points - but it doesn't mean they are facts. Until I can find out what the real #'s are - I will keep asking questions and trying to find out.

Wouldn't you like to know as much about the situation and data before making decisions? Or are you happy with what you know?

If you've already made your mind up, and really don't care to find out the bigger picture - well, that's part of the problem of how we got into the mess we're in: by being misinformed and making poor decisions.

would you care to tell us how many corporations exist in the USA please, fyi: http://askville.amazon.com/companies-employ-500-employees-quote-source/AnswerViewer.do?requestId=2314616

[Rigs11]

China is buying a clue. Their labor rates are going up, I know this because we buy things direct from China and they are well, difficult to work with.

Isn't it ironic how capitalism is working so well in a "Communist" state. So well in fact that the people now have money and know that their time and skills are worth more than $.50 an hour?

But the libtards will claim capitalism doesn't work. Really? I'd love to know how it's not working in China.

china is so polluted that only recently did the government admit that it was actually smog and not fog. their labor laws are horrible.working well? might as well admit that you're voteing for Newt.

[Tombstone RJ]

china is so polluted that only recently did the government admit that it was actually smog and not fog. their labor laws are horrible.working well? might as well admit that you're voteing for Newt.

lest you forget brosef they are a communist/socialist government, the very type you want to want here in the USA.

More gubnant works right?

[Rigs11]

lest you forget brosef they are a communist/socialist government, the very type you want to want here in the USA.

More gubnant works right?

Yah and you are the one using them as an example.Hilarious!Newt for 2012!

[pricejj]

if you'd dig into it - you'd see that it's more than the top few, but you don't and won't. You've already proven to everyone that you have your mind made up, and you don't care to understand the real problem(s).

See, lots of people like to regurgitate talking points - but it doesn't mean they are facts. Until I can find out what the real #'s are - I will keep asking questions and trying to find out.

Wouldn't you like to know as much about the situation and data before making decisions? Or are you happy with what you know?

If you've already made your mind up, and really don't care to find out the bigger picture - well, that's part of the problem of how we got into the mess we're in: by being misinformed and making poor decisions.

Yes, I read the article, which was a study done on 280 of the Fortune 500 companies. You are talking about 0.001% of the 27 million businesses nationwide. All of the top economies in the world (China, Japan, Germany, India, all of Europe) have lowered their corporate tax rate to compete globally. That is the undisputable fact. I will leave it up to you to find the average marginal tax rate being paid by a select 56% of Fortune 500 companies. I am interested in job creation in the U.S., and what specific actions the U.S. government can take to help foster job growth. I am not choosing to ignore 99.99% of businesses and an overwhelming amount of data to push a point home that "GE doesn't pay enough in taxes". What I am looking for is fair, competitive tax code, that won't create artificial asset bubbles and drive jobs overseas.

I am looking at the bigger picture Alkemikal. I don't parrot information. I do plenty of research, almost every single day. Believe me, I am trying to find the light at the end of the tunnel, just like you. However, you seem to cherry pick data, demand more data to back up alternating view points, and when it is presented and validated, you dismiss it, and tell us that we are using "talking points", and "don't care about data". I have shown you all the data you need to end this discussion.

[Tombstone RJ]

Yah and you are the one using them as an example.Hilarious!Newt for 2012!

Yah, about how capatilism is building them a middle class and a strong economy. If they want to curb pollution then they can. Would you care to tell them exactly how to do that?

didn't think so.

[Rigs11]

Yah, about how capatilism is building them a middle class and a strong economy. If they want to curb pollution then they can. Would you care to tell them exactly how to do that?

didn't think so.

if they want to curb pollution they can just ignore it like you righties do.Hilarious!

[Tombstone RJ]

if they want to curb pollution they can just ignore it like you righties do.Hilarious!

weak

[Popcorn Sutton]

See, lots of people like to regurgitate talking points - but it doesn't mean they are facts. Until I can find out what the real #'s are - I will keep asking questions and trying to find out.

I understand what you are trying to do and good luck with that.

My point is, I concede the effective vs. statutory rates are much different. BTW, the numbers posted at 14% are far different than most of the studies I've read which have them in the high teens. Prior to the Bush cuts they were in the low 20's...That's the effective rates. I'm trying to argue against such a convoluted system. We should we have a corporate tax code that ranges from Pepco paying -56% taxes to CVS paying 35%.

I guess what I'm asking you is why have a system so convoluted? The numbers you are after are pretty much unattainable other than an average across thousands of corporations. The reason I say this is the subsidies and kickbacks and different tools used to take advantage of the system only reward a small percentage of corporations.

Instead of worrying about the fuzzy math of trying to figure out the effective rates (darn near impossible), why not create a system that is competitive in the world and doesn't pick winners and losers? Why not have a corporate tax code that is easy to calculate? Why not have a system where corporations don't have to spend millions trying to figure out the tax code?

You could easily sell the new tax code (even if some have a little bit higher effective tax rate) by allowing corporations to spend less resources trying to find the savings in the current tax code. You could easily sell the new simple flat corporate tax by showing that every corporation is on a level playing field. You could easily sell the simplified and lowered tax code by making it competitive worldwide. If the flat rate is in the top 10 worldwide then there won't be a lot of backlash.

I'm not sure if you are trying to defend the subsidies, loopholes and such. It doesn't seem so. But trying to put figures on how much the effective rate is today is impossible because it depends on the industry, the different subsidies, exemptions and other loopholes that exist, so on and so forth. That is why there is such a disparity between the Pepco's and CVS's. You can't just look at our current system and say, well the corporations pay around 18% effective tax rate because thousands pay much more and thousands pay much less.

It is for that reason I would support a simplified tax code with no subsidies and no loopholes that only benefit a select few. The current code picks winners and losers at a government level because the lobbyists and special interests that had a hand in creating the loopholes are serving their employer.

**** all that nonsense and set the rate somewhere in the top 10 worldwide and make it a flat tax.

Sorry if this is simply regurgitating a talking point but I'm trying to explain my thought process.

[pricejj]

if they want to curb pollution they can just ignore it like you righties do.Hilarious!

I bet my carbon footprint is smaller than yours. I work with the development of electric vehicles, and it is my dream job. I recycle and reuse as much as I can. None of us want to live with pollution. Being fiscally conservative has nothing to do with "ignoring pollution". Don't believe what the Democrat/Socialist media tells you.

[alkemical]

would you care to tell us how many corporations exist in the USA please, fyi: http://askville.amazon.com/companies-employ-500-employees-quote-source/AnswerViewer.do?requestId=2314616

http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2011/08/16/two-thirds-of-us-corporations-dont-pay-federal-income-tax-true-but-horribly-misleading/

Two Thirds of US Corporations Don't Pay Federal Income Tax: True But Horribly Misleading

[alkemical]

Yes, I read the article, which was a study done on 280 of the Fortune 500 companies. You are talking about 0.001% of the 27 million businesses nationwide. All of the top economies in the world (China, Japan, Germany, India, all of Europe) have lowered their corporate tax rate to compete globally. That is the undisputable fact. I will leave it up to you to find the average marginal tax rate being paid by a select 56% of Fortune 500 companies. I am interested in job creation in the U.S., and what specific actions the U.S. government can take to help foster job growth. I am not choosing to ignore 99.99% of businesses and an overwhelming amount of data to push a point home that "GE doesn't pay enough in taxes". What I am looking for is fair, competitive tax code, that won't create artificial asset bubbles and drive jobs overseas.

I am looking at the bigger picture Alkemikal. I don't parrot information. I do plenty of research, almost every single day. Believe me, I am trying to find the light at the end of the tunnel, just like you. However, you seem to cherry pick data, demand more data to back up alternating view points, and when it is presented and validated, you dismiss it, and tell us that we are using "talking points", and "don't care about data". I have shown you all the data you need to end this discussion.

Yet the data reports (while a little misleading) - that close to 66% do not pay the taxes.

This means that by not taxing businesses, we should have lower priced goods and more jobs. Correct? That's the main tenant/pillar i'm hearing about "lowering taxes", right?

If questioning things is alternating view points, then I guess so. But I'm not making this any "political" position. I'm making this a point of using the best information to find the best investments. Not "cherry picking information" to support a view point, but using data to try to find the real #'s, by asking questions.

Until you remove the "political" quotient out of this - you're going to keep getting stuck in circular logic. I'm not looking to validate any "position", i'm looking to find the best direction to go in.

[alkemical]

I understand what you are trying to do and good luck with that.

My point is, I concede the effective vs. statutory rates are much different. BTW, the numbers posted at 14% are far different than most of the studies I've read which have them in the high teens. Prior to the Bush cuts they were in the low 20's...That's the effective rates. I'm trying to argue against such a convoluted system. We should we have a corporate tax code that ranges from Pepco paying -56% taxes to CVS paying 35%.



I appreciate that you understand what i'm trying to do. To me, this isn't about politics, just about information. :)

YUM! is a global brand, is CVS a global brand? How does their business model effect their tax rate? To we want to have "incentives" to have a greater exportation of US business into the world markets? These are important questions to know, to help make the best decision for "creating a business friendly environment" - with enough "accountability"?

These are things I think, we need to look at. Do we want to return to increasing tariffs? If so, how did tariffs effect mercantilism? Did it create any problems with "liquidity"?

Mercantilism changed feudalism - gold & silver were no longer "de facto" - now finished goods were more important than raw materials. What can we learn to help with where we're at, and where we're going.



I guess what I'm asking you is why have a system so convoluted? The numbers you are after are pretty much unattainable other than an average across thousands of corporations. The reason I say this is the subsidies and kickbacks and different tools used to take advantage of the system only reward a small percentage of corporations.

Instead of worrying about the fuzzy math of trying to figure out the effective rates (darn near impossible), why not create a system that is competitive in the world and doesn't pick winners and losers? Why not have a corporate tax code that is easy to calculate? Why not have a system where corporations don't have to spend millions trying to figure out the tax code?


Those are jobs created! (accounting & lawyers, & IRS agents) :)

Our whole culture is around winners and losers. Win @ The stock market, win at the grocery store... WINNING! :)

Sales is built on winners & losers. Not arguing, just my observation from running a business, and selling.

What's my incentive to increase my taxes?


You could easily sell the new tax code (even if some have a little bit higher effective tax rate) by allowing corporations to spend less resources trying to find the savings in the current tax code. You could easily sell the new simple flat corporate tax by showing that every corporation is on a level playing field. You could easily sell the simplified and lowered tax code by making it competitive worldwide. If the flat rate is in the top 10 worldwide then there won't be a lot of backlash.


Business doesn't like competition. That's a fallacy. Spend any time with some serious business guys, and you'll hear the same. It's the reason anti-monopoly legislation is used as a way to lock up your competition in litigation to keep your* marketshare.

(see apple, oracle, etc)


I'm not sure if you are trying to defend the subsidies, loopholes and such. It doesn't seem so. But trying to put figures on how much the effective rate is today is impossible because it depends on the industry, the different subsidies, exemptions and other loopholes that exist, so on and so forth. That is why there is such a disparity between the Pepco's and CVS's. You can't just look at our current system and say, well the corporations pay around 18% effective tax rate because thousands pay much more and thousands pay much less.


Again, we'd have to look at how YUM! & CVS do business. Is CVS straight up USA/North America only - I know YUM! is a world brand. Like GE, they're able to "shelter" their income.

Do I agree with it personally - no. BUT - it also is a form of competition. What can you get away with until they change the rules.


It is for that reason I would support a simplified tax code with no subsidies and no loopholes that only benefit a select few. The current code picks winners and losers at a government level because the lobbyists and special interests that had a hand in creating the loopholes are serving their employer.

**** all that nonsense and set the rate somewhere in the top 10 worldwide and make it a flat tax.

Sorry if this is simply regurgitating a talking point but I'm trying to explain my thought process.


What about the "corporate personhood" ruling? It's not just taxloopholes they keep, but other rights as well.

Look, i'm not disagreeing with some positions - but like I said - i just want to find the nitty/gritty. Raising taxes on business seems to be counter to what is being sold (price on consumers, job creation, etc).

That's what and why - i'm trying to find the disconnects.

Thanks though - I do appreciate it. :)

[Popcorn Sutton]

I appreciate that you understand what i'm trying to do. To me, this isn't about politics, just about information. :)

YUM! is a global brand, is CVS a global brand? How does their business model effect their tax rate? To we want to have "incentives" to have a greater exportation of US business into the world markets? These are important questions to know, to help make the best decision for "creating a business friendly environment" - with enough "accountability"?

These are things I think, we need to look at. Do we want to return to increasing tariffs? If so, how did tariffs effect mercantilism? Did it create any problems with "liquidity"?

Mercantilism changed feudalism - gold & silver were no longer "de facto" - now finished goods were more important than raw materials. What can we learn to help with where we're at, and where we're going.




Those are jobs created! (accounting & lawyers, & IRS agents) :)

Our whole culture is around winners and losers. Win @ The stock market, win at the grocery store... WINNING! :)

Sales is built on winners & losers. Not arguing, just my observation from running a business, and selling.

What's my incentive to increase my taxes?



Business doesn't like competition. That's a fallacy. Spend any time with some serious business guys, and you'll hear the same. It's the reason anti-monopoly legislation is used as a way to lock up your competition in litigation to keep your* marketshare.

(see apple, oracle, etc)



Again, we'd have to look at how YUM! & CVS do business. Is CVS straight up USA/North America only - I know YUM! is a world brand. Like GE, they're able to "shelter" their income.

Do I agree with it personally - no. BUT - it also is a form of competition. What can you get away with until they change the rules.




What about the "corporate personhood" ruling? It's not just taxloopholes they keep, but other rights as well.

Look, i'm not disagreeing with some positions - but like I said - i just want to find the nitty/gritty. Raising taxes on business seems to be counter to what is being sold (price on consumers, job creation, etc).

That's what and why - i'm trying to find the disconnects.

Thanks though - I do appreciate it. :)

One other thing you may want to consider is the power that the current tax code gives to lobbyists. If you were to go to a lower flat corporate tax you'd put half of the lobbyists out of jobs.

IMO, that is a good thing.