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chickennob2
12-07-2011, 08:23 PM
Hey folks, Nate Irving got some game action at the end of the first half, so I thought I'd see how the guy most of us hope is a future starter at middle linebacker fared. I took some screenshots of the plays he was in on, and you can see the album here:
http://imgur.com/a/GHGAT

And here's my breakdown. Irving first came in in the middle of a drive. I didn't see Mays get hurt, and Joe was back in there in the second half, so I'm not sure what got causes this.


2nd and 10, Denver's 35, 4:18 in the 2nd

This is a handoff to Gerhart. He follows his fullback through a crease between the right tackle and the pulling play side guard. I'm honestly not sure what Irving was doing on this play. It looks like he misdiagnoses the play and gets into his zone drop before realizing his mistake, in effect looping back to try to make a play. He doesn't get there as he's blocked easily by the fullback. This looked like a bad read followed by a bad angle. Play results in a 16 yard gain.


1st and 10, Denver's 19, 3:40 in the 2nd

Irving's in man coverage on Shiancoe, the TE who had been playing well so far. Though perhaps a bit handsy, Irving has good coverage on his man. Unfortunately, Quinton Carter doesn't locate the ball and Kyle Rudolph is able to reach back to make the touchdown catch.


< In the interim, Walton completely whiffs on Remi Ayodele leading immediately to a sack of Tim Tebow. Frazier displays some terribly botched clock management by taking a timeout to stop the clock with 2:07 left and Denver about to punt. As any kind of punt with a return would last more than 7 seconds, the 2 minute warning and change of possession timeouts coincided. If he saves the timeout, the 2 minute warning stops the clock before the punt at 2:00. The change of possession timeout stops the clock after the punt. You lose 7 seconds, but you keep a timeout in your pocket. I think it's pretty clear what the right call is. >


1st and 10, Minnesota's 14, 1:55 in the 2nd

The Vikings line up with a TE to either side and 3 backs in the backfield. (An inverted wishbone with 2 TEs?). The Broncos answer with three linebackers, Champ Bailey at linebacker depth a few yards outside the offensive right side TE, and Brian Dawkins just off the line of scrimmage to the offensive left. Irving bites on the play action fake, and I honestly can't tell what his assignment is supposed to be. He and Mario Haggan both realize it's play action at the same time, and both turn and run downfield together.


2nd and 4, Minnesota's 20, 1:24 in the 2nd

Minnesota has the same backfield with two wide receivers. Denver answers with 3 linebackers, two corners with inside leverage (and Goodman giving a might big cushion), nickelback Chris Harris to the offensive right, and Quinton Carter playing very deep (I'm assuming deep center, but he's off the screen). With the TV angle I can't see much of the defensive backfield. It looks like Nate Irving has a deep zone, as he gets downfield very quickly after the snap. The ball is completed to the left side of the field, between Mario Haggan and Andre Goodman for a

<Ponder tries to take a second consecutive timeout. There... strangely appears to be no penalty for this. I didn't realize that. The commentator tells us they take a 10 second runoff, but the ref was actually telling the clock operator to set the play clock to 10 seconds on his signal. There is no run off.>

1st and 10, Minnesota's 33, 1:14 in the 2nd

Irving and Haggan come off the field in facor of Woodyard and Hunter. A bad pass to an open Aromashadu on a slant falls incomplete.


2nd and 10, Minnesota's 33, 1:10 in the 2nd

Same personnel. Pass to Gerhart in the flat for 8 yards.


3rd and 3, Minnesota's 40, 1:05 in the 2nd

Still no Irving. The pass bounces off of Andre Goodman's back/shoulder. He's got no clue where the ball is, but he's standing his ground within 5 yards of the line.


<Punt, Tebow fumble>


1st and 10, Denver's 21, 0:39 in the 2nd

Shotgun, 4 receivers and a tight end. Denver answers wtih their nickel. No Irving. Completion to Shiancoe for 5 yards.


2nd and 5, Denver's 16, 0:18 in the 2nd

Shotgun, 3 receivers, a tight end, and a back. Nickel personnel for Denver. Completion to Armoashidu in the flat, but Goodman makes a good tackle to keep him in bounds. Minnesota takes their final timeout.


1st and Goal, Denver's 6, 0:08 in the 2nd

Nickel personnel again, and Ponder throws it out of the back of the end zone. Field goal. Half.

epicSocialism4tw
12-07-2011, 08:32 PM
Good stuff. Thanks. Rep.

strafen
12-07-2011, 08:32 PM
Wow, I almost forgot who Nate Irving was. Ha!

Thanks for taking the time to post it.
I haven't heard much of Irving since TC.
He kinda quickly faded, huh? or do we have too much depth at LB?

Agamemnon
12-07-2011, 08:34 PM
So he basically did nothing.

strafen
12-07-2011, 08:38 PM
So he basically did nothing.Yeah, I see no highlights :~ohyah!:

BroncoMan4ever
12-07-2011, 08:38 PM
perhaps he was drafted with the intent of becoming a ST ace for the team. it is likely that Woodyard is going to go somewhere for the opportunity to start. i personally think he should start ahead of DJ in Denver. but most likely he leaves and someone will need to anchor the ST and perhaps that is Irving, because he sure doesn't look like he is going to be getting it done on defense

BroncoMan4ever
12-07-2011, 08:43 PM
Wow, I almost forgot who Nate Irving was. Ha!

Thanks for taking the time to post it.
I haven't heard much of Irving since TC.
He kinda quickly faded, huh? or do we have too much depth at LB?

too much depth at LB?

Miller is the best LB on the roster. and after him everyone else should be upgraded.

Woodyard is the next best LB in my opinion even though he doesn't start. still believe that has more to do with DJ's contract than actual play on the field and more than likely WW is going to leave in the offseason in hopes of starting somewhere.

Mays is a stop gap

DJ is past his prime and was never really all that great. solid but nothing spectacular.

Haggan is a good depth guy and veteran leader you want on a team


Irving just isn't very good if he can't get on the field with our LB depth the way it is.

strafen
12-07-2011, 08:45 PM
perhaps he was drafted with the intent of becoming a ST ace for the team. it is likely that Woodyard is going to go somewhere for the opportunity to start. i personally think he should start ahead of DJ in Denver. but most likely he leaves and someone will need to anchor the ST and perhaps that is Irving, because he sure doesn't look like he is going to be getting it done on defense

Just looking at what we have now at the LB position; Haggan, Woodyard, DJ, Miller, and Mays, it will be hard for Irving to crack the starting line-up.

He's the lightest of our LBs. I thought I've heard talks this summer about Irving making a good safety.
Any truth to that?

Agamemnon
12-07-2011, 08:48 PM
DJ Williams has been pretty good of late. This notion that Woodyard is somehow better than him is just plain silly. Replacing DJ is the last thing on my mind when looking at how to upgrade this team.

strafen
12-07-2011, 08:48 PM
too much depth at LB?

Miller is the best LB on the roster. and after him everyone else should be upgraded.

Woodyard is the next best LB in my opinion even though he doesn't start. still believe that has more to do with DJ's contract than actual play on the field and more than likely WW is going to leave in the offseason in hopes of starting somewhere.

Mays is a stop gap

DJ is past his prime and was never really all that great. solid but nothing spectacular.

Haggan is a good depth guy and veteran leader you want on a team


Irving just isn't very good if he can't get on the field with our LB depth the way it is.I agree. Woodyard is just a tackling machine. He's always around the ball. I like Woodyard
I'm not a fan of Haggan, but the guy does make nice plays, and he's a big dude too.

BroncoMan4ever
12-07-2011, 08:50 PM
Just looking at what we have now at the LB position; Haggan, Woodyard, DJ, Miller, and Mays, it will be hard for Irving to crack the starting line-up.

He's the lightest of our LBs. I thought I've heard talks this summer about Irving making a good safety.
Any truth to that?

our LB depth is not all that great outside of Miller and maybe Woodyard.

on almost any other team Mays is a backup and ST player, DJ is a stop gap while a young replacement is found to replace him, Haggan is a solid backup and veteran leader and ST player and Woodyard is probably a starting WILL.

truthfully it is sad he couldn't take the starting MLB job.

Agamemnon
12-07-2011, 08:51 PM
Just looking at what we have now at the LB position; Haggan, Woodyard, DJ, Miller, and Mays, it will be hard for Irving to crack the starting line-up.

He's the lightest of our LBs. I thought I've heard talks this summer about Irving making a good safety.
Any truth to that?

Nate Irving is listed at 6'1" 240 pounds. Woodyard is by far our smallest linebacker.

And whoever was talking of converting Irving to safety was smoking crack.

BroncoMan4ever
12-07-2011, 08:54 PM
DJ Williams has been pretty good of late. This notion that Woodyard is somehow better than him is just plain silly. Replacing DJ is the last thing on my mind when looking at how to upgrade this team.

DJ has always been an underachiever in my mind. he is a guy with all the physical ability you could want in a LB but just seemingly plays soft. he is the Nene of the Broncos LB corps. a physical specimen who plays weak.

Woodyard is not physically any better than DJ, but he goes all out every single play. he is always around the ball carrier or taking down the ballcarrier. the guy is a straight up tackling machine. he plays bigger than he is.

if i had to choose between them for next season, i would take Woodyard and trade DJ.

Agamemnon
12-07-2011, 08:56 PM
our LB depth is not all that great outside of Miller and maybe Woodyard.

on almost any other team Mays is a backup and ST player, DJ is a stop gap while a young replacement is found to replace him, Haggan is a solid backup and veteran leader and ST player and Woodyard is probably a starting WILL.

truthfully it is sad he couldn't take the starting MLB job.

I would actually argue that our depth is good. Mays starting at MLB is the glaring issue with our linebackers at the moment. This defense with an Al Wilson caliber Mike would suddenly become elite if you ask me.

strafen
12-07-2011, 08:57 PM
Nate Irving is listed at 6'1" 240 pounds. Woodyard is by far our smallest linebacker.

And whoever was talking of converting Irving to safety was smoking crack.

You're right. I thought Woodyard was at 245lbs....
He's lighter than that...

Tombstone RJ
12-07-2011, 08:57 PM
Hard to judge Irving from this little of a sample, at least the Broncos are bringing him in and giving him playing time. I wonder if the Broncos wanted to see if he could lite up Gerhart and put the fear of God in their running game...

Agamemnon
12-07-2011, 09:00 PM
DJ has always been an underachiever in my mind. he is a guy with all the physical ability you could want in a LB but just seemingly plays soft. he is the Nene of the Broncos LB corps. a physical specimen who plays weak.

Woodyard is not physically any better than DJ, but he goes all out every single play. he is always around the ball carrier or taking down the ballcarrier. the guy is a straight up tackling machine. he plays bigger than he is.

if i had to choose between them for next season, i would take Woodyard and trade DJ.

We'd be better off keeping them both. Unless we bring in players that are clearly and upgrade, there's no reason to get rid of solid players. D.J. is a solid linebacker. So is Woodyard. There's no reason to dump solid players unless you've got a pro bowler to replace them and need the roster spot.

strafen
12-07-2011, 09:00 PM
I would actually argue that our depth is good. Mays starting at MLB is the glaring issue with our linebackers at the moment. This defense with an Al Wilson caliber Mike would suddenly become elite if you ask me.

The system fits the players, and they're playing well together in it.
They can only get better.
From the talent point of view...there's Miller and then the other ones... :D

Agamemnon
12-07-2011, 09:01 PM
Hard to judge Irving from this little of a sample, at least the Broncos are bringing him in and giving him playing time. I wonder if the Broncos wanted to see if he could lite up Gerhart and put the fear of God in their running game...

Mays can already do that, if not much else. Irving isn't going to light anyone up the way Mays does.

ICON
12-07-2011, 09:01 PM
Nate Irving is lucky to be alive and he knows it.I'm still pulling for Nate Irving!

Go Broncos

strafen
12-07-2011, 09:04 PM
Nate Irving is lucky to be alive and he knows it.I'm still pulling for Nate Irving!

Go Broncos

Doesn't he still have a metal plate on one of his shins? :o

Agamemnon
12-07-2011, 09:05 PM
Nate Irving is lucky to be alive and he knows it.I'm still pulling for Nate Irving!

Go Broncos

I'm pulling for all our young players. Every time one of them proves to be a good player that's one less need for us to address in the future.

Inkana7
12-07-2011, 09:15 PM
Fox said he came in because Mays was cramping, and also had some really nice things to say about Irving.

BroncoMan4ever
12-07-2011, 09:20 PM
We'd be better off keeping them both. Unless we bring in players that are clearly and upgrade, there's no reason to get rid of solid players. D.J. is a solid linebacker. So is Woodyard. There's no reason to dump solid players unless you've got a pro bowler to replace them and need the roster spot.

i would like to trade DJ for a 2nd or 3rd round pick. give Woodyard a new deal as our new starting WLB and stockpile some picks. this team is playing way beyond its talent level right now and we still have a lot of holes to fill. the loss of trading DJ is not so large that it would damage the team, but the pick(s) we could get for him would help the team with depth and if last year was any indication of the way this current regime drafts, possibly a mid round gem.

also with FA we can always bring in a replacement for him. Dan Connor a Fox draft pick in Carolina is a FA next year and could be a good pickup.

Tombstone RJ
12-07-2011, 09:22 PM
Mays can already do that, if not much else. Irving isn't going to light anyone up the way Mays does.

But Mays didn't do that. Gerhart ran roughshot over the defense. Irving was drafted to be the starting MLB and Mays is a left over from the McD days. Now I like Mays as much as the next guy but he does have some big limitations.

Agamemnon
12-07-2011, 09:26 PM
But Mays didn't do that. Gerhart ran roughshot over the defense. Irving was drafted to be the starting MLB and Mays is a left over from the McD days. Now I like Mays as much as the next guy but he does have some big limitations.

Note my "if not much else" part of the preceding statement. I was simply saying that putting in Irving is not more likely to result in a big hit than Mays. Irving isn't a big hit guy as far as I'm aware.

cutthemdown
12-07-2011, 09:46 PM
DJ playing the best football he ever has IMO.

Agamemnon
12-07-2011, 09:50 PM
DJ playing the best football he ever has IMO.

He's certainly not playing in such a way that I want to get rid of him.

What is it with fans always wanting to trade away players actually contributing to our team?

Br0nc0Buster
12-07-2011, 09:51 PM
I like Irving's potential

Outside of Kuchley(?), there isnt really a MLB I like enough in this upcoming draft to put in over seeing what we have in Irving

Mays has been solid, I think we right now are solid at LB

cutthemdown
12-07-2011, 09:55 PM
He's certainly not playing in such a way that I want to get rid of him.

What is it with fans always wanting to trade away players actually contributing to our team?

I'm usually pretty hard on DJ. I say things like partying more important then winning, that he doesn't shed blocks well and too often just tries to run around people instead of crashing into the pile and wreaking havoc.

but........ he seems really fired up and playing harder then i have ever seen him. He's blowing up blockers and letting other teammates come in and make tackle, he's fighting through blockers to make a play and even gettin to the QB sometimes.

if anything we look for a stud MLB to make DJ the after thought. He could be really effective weakside with Miller and a big menacing MLB next to him. Not to mention Doom in front of him etc etc.

Its a lot different for a player like DJ, who likes space, when the defense starts to get better. All the sudden he is seeing more and more space to make plays.

BroncoMan4ever
12-07-2011, 09:57 PM
He's certainly not playing in such a way that I want to get rid of him.

What is it with fans always wanting to trade away players actually contributing to our team?

he is playing well now, no doubt. however, he has been in the league for something like a decade now and has always been underwhelming. who's to say that once this season is over he doesn't revert back to what he has always been. i want a guy who consistently brings it. he is not that guy

Popps
12-07-2011, 10:35 PM
Nice recap. Thanks for the thread.

Agamemnon
12-08-2011, 12:00 AM
he is playing well now, no doubt. however, he has been in the league for something like a decade now and has always been underwhelming. who's to say that once this season is over he doesn't revert back to what he has always been. i want a guy who consistently brings it. he is not that guy

We have far too many obvious glaring holes on our team to just trade DJ away and assume that the 3rd rounder we get for him (if that) contributes at the same much less a higher level. We need to hold onto the players who aren't hurting us and replace the ones who are. We need to address CB, MLB, DT, RB, WR, and TE well before we try to upgrade one of the players who is actually doing his job. DJ isn't a great LB, and he never will be, but he's solid. He's always been solid. And until we have a defense like the Steelers or Ravens, replacing solid players should not be a priority.

broncocalijohn
12-08-2011, 12:23 AM
So he basically did nothing.

except damage.

He's certainly not playing in such a way that I want to get rid of him.

What is it with fans always wanting to trade away players actually contributing to our team?

Probably they have been expecting more from him since he was such a high pick. Only this year has it been less talk becaus our defense is playing pretty solid for the most part and he has had some good games. Overall, frustration with DJ. We all remember Mobley and Wilson and even Ian Gold for his epic Raiders game but in 10 years, will we really look back on DJ's long tenure here and think he stood out? I hope he does but as of now, probably not.

Carmelo15
12-08-2011, 12:46 AM
he is playing well now, no doubt. however, he has been in the league for something like a decade now and has always been underwhelming. who's to say that once this season is over he doesn't revert back to what he has always been. i want a guy who consistently brings it. he is not that guy

Terrible logic. It's not like DJ is in a contract year. He has another two seasons left on his deal after this. A much more likely explanation would be that he is t'finally playing back at his natural position for the first time in over 5 years. D.J. is a Will linebacker. He is the least of our worries on upgrading the defense. John Fox has said as much.

I'm not a big fan of Joe Mays (at least as a starter) and even less of a fan of Nate Irving. I think Joe Mays is a great guy to have on your team as a special teams demon and a quality backup LB. I certainly enjoy watching his hits but he simply lacks talent. He's always trying to light guys up but frequently misses. He is also too slow to cover a lot of backs and tight ends.

Nate Irving is never going to be a starting MLB for the Broncos. If he is we are in big trouble. I hated the pick especially with how early we took him. I wanted Colin McCarthy and Mason Foster much more than him, guys that are both starting and playing well for the Titans and Bucs respectively. This was simply a missed pick and I hope we use this strong MLB class to upgrade the position. Kuechly and Te'o are both going to be very good. I slightly prefer Te'o since he has a lot more athleticism and speed. He struggles getting off blocks sometimes but he has the strength and instincts to improve in that area. Kuechly is pure instincts which is why he is always around the ball. Unfortunately he lacks the speed to get there every time and is not as strong of a tackler as Te'o. However he is such a smart player that he makes up for a lot of his deficiencies in athleticism. Fox and Allen both prefer Lbs with speed so they will likely prefer Te'o as well but both of these guys are in my top 5 guys who I hope we get with our late 1st rounder pick. A D.J. Te'o Von LB trio would be awesome.

cutthemdown
12-08-2011, 12:53 AM
I would be critical of Mays, but hes playing hard and team winning so why bitch and moan? But....... his arms too short, he has trouble wrapping up big ball carriers. I think he is the weak link of the linebacking corps.

cutthemdown
12-08-2011, 12:55 AM
Terrible logic. It's not like DJ is in a contract year. He has another two seasons left on his deal after this. A much more likely explanation would be that he is t'finally playing back at his natural position for the first time in over 5 years. D.J. is a Will linebacker. He is the least of our worries on upgrading the defense. John Fox has said as much.

I'm not a big fan of Joe Mays (at least as a starter) and even less of a fan of Nate Irving. I think Joe Mays is a great guy to have on your team as a special teams demon and a quality backup LB. I certainly enjoy watching his hits but he simply lacks talent. He's always trying to light guys up but frequently misses. He is also too slow to cover a lot of backs and tight ends.

Nate Irving is never going to be a starting MLB for the Broncos. If he is we are in big trouble. I hated the pick especially with how early we took him. I wanted Colin McCarthy and Mason Foster much more than him, guys that are both starting and playing well for the Titans and Bucs respectively. This was simply a missed pick and I hope we use this strong MLB class to upgrade the position. Kuechly and Te'o are both going to be very good. I slightly prefer Te'o since he has a lot more athleticism and speed. He struggles getting off blocks sometimes but he has the strength and instincts to improve in that area. Kuechly is pure instincts which is why he is always around the ball. Unfortunately he lacks the speed to get there every time and is not as strong of a tackler as Te'o. However he is such a smart player that he makes up for a lot of his deficiencies in athleticism. Fox and Allen both prefer Lbs with speed so they will likely prefer Te'o as well but both of these guys are in my top 5 guys who I hope we get with our late 1st rounder pick. A D.J. Te'o Von LB trio would be awesome.

I agree. Unless DJ was hitting the market or injured I see no reason to part with him right now. We just signed him a couple yrs back to an extension right? He's probably not too expensive right now.

ZONA
12-08-2011, 01:02 AM
Not sure how the draft will unfold but if there is an elite MLB sitting there when we draft, I think that's a great idea. Same goes for DT and CB. I'd love to see a monster blocking TE added in this upcoming draft also, as long as he has some decent hands.

But put me down for being excited if our 1st pick is a stud MLB.

Agamemnon
12-08-2011, 01:24 AM
Not sure how the draft will unfold but if there is an elite MLB sitting there when we draft, I think that's a great idea. Same goes for DT and CB. I'd love to see a monster blocking TE added in this upcoming draft also, as long as he has some decent hands.

But put me down for being excited if our 1st pick is a stud MLB.

BPA is all I'm really wanting, within reason. I really can't think of many positions on our roster that couldn't use an infusion of talent.

In the case of relatively equal prospects at different positions, I'd list our needs in the following order: CB, RB, MLB, DT, TE, WR, S, G, C, T, FB, DE, OLB, QB. The first five or six are the positions I feel it is absolutely imperative for us to address in the draft and free agency next year (barring players emerging from within our roster). The rest I feel like we can roll with, at least for a season.

ZONA
12-08-2011, 01:34 AM
BPA is all I'm really wanting, within reason. I really can't think of many positions on our roster that couldn't use an infusion of talent.

In the case of relatively equal prospects at different positions, I'd list our needs in the following order: CB, RB, MLB, DT, TE, WR, S, G, C, T, FB, DE, OLB, QB. The first five or six are the positions I feel it is absolutely imperative for us to address in the draft and free agency next year (barring players emerging from within our roster). The rest I feel like we can roll with, at least for a season.

I agree. BPA is always a good idea. But there are some new things to consider. For example, I've never liked 1st round WR's, especially now that we're running the ball so much and that our young WR's are stepping up. Not so sure it would be wise to take BPA if that guy is a WR. I also don't like 1st round RB's. Not with out rich history of finding gems late and seeing alot of 1st round RB's over the years not doing so great (that includes not just our team).

I would definitely be open to getting almost any defensive player (BPA) no matter which position (except for rushing LB). I also would be open to RT if there happens to be one there when we pick. Moving Franklin to LG really could be turn that left side of the line into something special.

But I do think we need to add a RB. Hall has been decent, not saying we're done with him yet and I still think the kid from Oregon deserves a longer look. But I'd love to see a blazing quick RB/WR type added but that can definitely be found later in the draft.

BroncoMan4ever
12-08-2011, 01:37 AM
We have far too many obvious glaring holes on our team to just trade DJ away and assume that the 3rd rounder we get for him (if that) contributes at the same much less a higher level. We need to hold onto the players who aren't hurting us and replace the ones who are. We need to address CB, MLB, DT, RB, WR, and TE well before we try to upgrade one of the players who is actually doing his job. DJ isn't a great LB, and he never will be, but he's solid. He's always been solid. And until we have a defense like the Steelers or Ravens, replacing solid players should not be a priority.

fair enough. i get where you are coming from and agree it is too soon to be looking at replacing guys that aren't a detriment to the team. if the team were closer to complete then the move DJ talk would make more sense.

i am not so sure that TE is a need position right now. Fells was a good pickup. solid blocker, decent hands. with the rookies who knows? Thomas was supposed to be a beast but injuries have limited him. Green has so much athletic ability that i don't want to give up on the guy yet(plus he was a draft pick i had been touting in the months leading up to the draft) the glaring issue with the TE position is, we don't use them. Tebow has not become adept at finding his TE yet or hitting the seam route. i think with more time in the offense and making throws he will get better at finding our TE who really aren't talent deficient.

cutthemdown
12-08-2011, 01:41 AM
fair enough. i get where you are coming from and agree it is too soon to be looking at replacing guys that aren't a detriment to the team. if the team were closer to complete then the move DJ talk would make more sense.

i am not so sure that TE is a need position right now. Fells was a good pickup. solid blocker, decent hands. with the rookies who knows? Thomas was supposed to be a beast but injuries have limited him. Green has so much athletic ability that i don't want to give up on the guy yet(plus he was a draft pick i had been touting in the months leading up to the draft) the glaring issue with the TE position is, we don't use them. Tebow has not become adept at finding his TE yet or hitting the seam route. i think with more time in the offense and making throws he will get better at finding our TE who really aren't talent deficient.

I think the good, and bad news, is Broncos could use a top end player at a number of positions. Some of the ones people may not be thinking, but still could be targets even include OG, WR, DE along with the obvious I guess DT, CB, TE

So Broncos will probably not have trouble going BPA with the first pick.

cutthemdown
12-08-2011, 01:42 AM
As far as BPA goes I bet a lot of times they have 3-4 players they all think have the same chance to be good players, then maybe you go with the position you need more etc etc. I doubt its so black and white you don't have ties, multiple ties etc etc.

Drek
12-08-2011, 03:04 AM
BPA is all I'm really wanting, within reason. I really can't think of many positions on our roster that couldn't use an infusion of talent.

In the case of relatively equal prospects at different positions, I'd list our needs in the following order: CB, RB, MLB, DT, TE, WR, S, G, C, T, FB, DE, OLB, QB. The first five or six are the positions I feel it is absolutely imperative for us to address in the draft and free agency next year (barring players emerging from within our roster). The rest I feel like we can roll with, at least for a season.
With Irving being drafted just last year and the DJ/Woodyard/Mays/Haggan rotation to cover up on nickel downs I can't see how you'd have MLB as a greater need than DT.

Assuming we restain Bunkley (FA after this year) do you really think that Bunkley, Thomas, and McBean put fear in any opposing OL? We get ran on up the gut consistently. Gerhart, who has looked like a bust his entire career had his best game ever with a rookie QB on us just last week.

We need a real standout DT. Not necessarily an elite DT, but a week in week out positive impact on the interior. Then Bunkley, Thomas, and McBean find their own assignments much easier to maintain.

CB is hands down our biggest need, but we still haven't really satisfied our need at DT, it just gets more easily overlooked because Von and Doom create QB pressure and Goodman is so damn bad. After that we need to add a better starting MLB or RB depth to ultimately replace McGahee, and then we have a serious need for OL depth.

fontaine
12-08-2011, 03:17 AM
With Irving being drafted just last year and the DJ/Woodyard/Mays/Haggan rotation to cover up on nickel downs I can't see how you'd have MLB as a greater need than DT.

Assuming we restain Bunkley (FA after this year) do you really think that Bunkley, Thomas, and McBean put fear in any opposing OL? We get ran on up the gut consistently. Gerhart, who has looked like a bust his entire career had his best game ever with a rookie QB on us just last week.

We need a real standout DT. Not necessarily an elite DT, but a week in week out positive impact on the interior. Then Bunkley, Thomas, and McBean find their own assignments much easier to maintain.

CB is hands down our biggest need, but we still haven't really satisfied our need at DT, it just gets more easily overlooked because Von and Doom create QB pressure and Goodman is so damn bad. After that we need to add a better starting MLB or RB depth to ultimately replace McGahee, and then we have a serious need for OL depth.

I agree. I would like to bring in Brandon Carr at DB in the offseason. There will be starting Quality DTs available in Darnell Dockett, Adam Carriker, and Aubrayo Franklin.

We still have Ty Warren under contract who can play the two down run stopping role or go with Franklin. Dockett provides pass rush from the interior or Carriker is an all around guy.

Agamemnon
12-08-2011, 03:35 AM
With Irving being drafted just last year and the DJ/Woodyard/Mays/Haggan rotation to cover up on nickel downs I can't see how you'd have MLB as a greater need than DT.

Assuming we restain Bunkley (FA after this year) do you really think that Bunkley, Thomas, and McBean put fear in any opposing OL? We get ran on up the gut consistently. Gerhart, who has looked like a bust his entire career had his best game ever with a rookie QB on us just last week.

We need a real standout DT. Not necessarily an elite DT, but a week in week out positive impact on the interior. Then Bunkley, Thomas, and McBean find their own assignments much easier to maintain.

CB is hands down our biggest need, but we still haven't really satisfied our need at DT, it just gets more easily overlooked because Von and Doom create QB pressure and Goodman is so damn bad. After that we need to add a better starting MLB or RB depth to ultimately replace McGahee, and then we have a serious need for OL depth.

RB, MLB, and DT are equal in terms of need as far as I'm concerned. I listed them in that order more from personal preference than anything else. DT and MLB have equal culpability in our lapses against the interior run game as far as I'm concerned (though Bunkley has been a stud in my opinion), and to me where Nate Irving was drafted I see him as more of a depth player than a genuine answer at Mike.

To be more clear, the list of needs goes like this as far as I'm concerned (again listed in order of personal preference):

1. CB
2. RB, MLB, DT
3. TE, WR, S, G
4. C, T, FB, DE
5. OLB, QB

Agamemnon
12-08-2011, 03:42 AM
Moving Franklin to LG really could be turn that left side of the line into something special.

I can definitely see some appeal to drafting a tackle in the 1st or 2nd and shifting Franklin inside, if we finally conclude that Beadles is a loss (or nothing more than a backup). But then we'd be facing yet another season of a rookie protecting Tebow's blindside. Personally, I'd rather see us try to salvage Beadles by giving him another year in the system and a full offseason. OL depth is a need either way though, so the mid and late rounds look prime for bringing in some developmental guys to shore that up.

Rabb
12-08-2011, 05:11 AM
But Mays didn't do that. Gerhart ran roughshot over the defense. Irving was drafted to be the starting MLB and Mays is a left over from the McD days. Now I like Mays as much as the next guy but he does have some big limitations.

yep, Mays got blown up on a couple too

I like the guy and all, but sometimes he is just awful

Garcia Bronco
12-08-2011, 06:18 AM
Yeah..i don't think he'll ever beat out Joe Mays.

Br0nc0Buster
12-08-2011, 07:27 AM
Terrible logic. It's not like DJ is in a contract year. He has another two seasons left on his deal after this. A much more likely explanation would be that he is t'finally playing back at his natural position for the first time in over 5 years. D.J. is a Will linebacker. He is the least of our worries on upgrading the defense. John Fox has said as much.

I'm not a big fan of Joe Mays (at least as a starter) and even less of a fan of Nate Irving. I think Joe Mays is a great guy to have on your team as a special teams demon and a quality backup LB. I certainly enjoy watching his hits but he simply lacks talent. He's always trying to light guys up but frequently misses. He is also too slow to cover a lot of backs and tight ends.

Nate Irving is never going to be a starting MLB for the Broncos. If he is we are in big trouble. I hated the pick especially with how early we took him. I wanted Colin McCarthy and Mason Foster much more than him, guys that are both starting and playing well for the Titans and Bucs respectively. This was simply a missed pick and I hope we use this strong MLB class to upgrade the position. Kuechly and Te'o are both going to be very good. I slightly prefer Te'o since he has a lot more athleticism and speed. He struggles getting off blocks sometimes but he has the strength and instincts to improve in that area. Kuechly is pure instincts which is why he is always around the ball. Unfortunately he lacks the speed to get there every time and is not as strong of a tackler as Te'o. However he is such a smart player that he makes up for a lot of his deficiencies in athleticism. Fox and Allen both prefer Lbs with speed so they will likely prefer Te'o as well but both of these guys are in my top 5 guys who I hope we get with our late 1st rounder pick. A D.J. Te'o Von LB trio would be awesome.

What is with the Mason Foster love, the guy isnt THAT good
McCarthy is good, but I dont think you can say Foster at this moment is the flat out better player when Irving hasnt played

I liked Irving in preseason, outside of his injury concerns I am not really sure what is so awful about him

MplsBronco
12-08-2011, 07:51 AM
I personally think this is the best DJ has looked in a long time. Seems like he is always making plays.

I haven't seen him like at the end of the Shanny regime against SD chasing a ball carrier while casually trying to put his glove back on.

I was down on him but think he has been good this year. The LBs have been better overall than I expected as well. Mays is not top tier but he has been adequate and provides some physicality.

Jay3
12-08-2011, 07:55 AM
I wonder if Haggans could make the switch to the middle for the rest of the season, and find a permanent niche there?

boppool
12-08-2011, 09:19 AM
too much depth at LB?

Miller is the best LB on the roster. and after him everyone else should be upgraded.

Woodyard is the next best LB in my opinion even though he doesn't start. still believe that has more to do with DJ's contract than actual play on the field and more than likely WW is going to leave in the offseason in hopes of starting somewhere.
Mays is a stop gap

DJ is past his prime and was never really all that great. solid but nothing spectacular.

Haggan is a good depth guy and veteran leader you want on a team


Irving just isn't very good if he can't get on the field with our LB depth the way it is.

I agree with most of these, except that as hard worker as Woody is, DJ is our second best LB and although he may have lost a step, DJ has a few solid years left in him.

I haven't given up on Irving yet. He's rook who's had some injury issues to begin the season. I'll give him at least another year to prove that he can be our MLB of the future.

brncs_fan
12-08-2011, 10:13 AM
Problem Solved:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_zfcsRnX8v5w/TORFY3J1nPI/AAAAAAAAANU/Fn6tC-FUjO8/s1600/Manti+Te%2527o+2.jpg

BroncoMan4ever
12-08-2011, 11:35 AM
I think the good, and bad news, is Broncos could use a top end player at a number of positions. Some of the ones people may not be thinking, but still could be targets even include OG, WR, DE along with the obvious I guess DT, CB, TE

So Broncos will probably not have trouble going BPA with the first pick.

honestly, i am not worried about our starters on the OL anymore. i don't know what has happened to them but this line gelled and has become a beast. now depth is my major issue with this line. after our starters the cupboard is bare.

TE is another i am not worried about. Fells should be re-signed after the season, Thomas should be better next season with a full year under his belt and no injuries, and Green will earn a shot. we just need to start using the TE position more often in the passing game.

CB, DL, OL depth are what i think Denver needs to focus on in the offseason.

BroncoMan4ever
12-08-2011, 11:37 AM
Problem Solved:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_zfcsRnX8v5w/TORFY3J1nPI/AAAAAAAAANU/Fn6tC-FUjO8/s1600/Manti+Te%2527o+2.jpg

that is not Vontaze Burfict. so no the problem is not solved.

Garcia Bronco
12-08-2011, 11:43 AM
DJ playing the best football he ever has IMO.

This

Garcia Bronco
12-08-2011, 11:44 AM
I wonder if Haggans could make the switch to the middle for the rest of the season, and find a permanent niche there?

He played that role with the second team in preseason

Requiem
12-08-2011, 12:03 PM
that is not Vontaze Burfict. so no the problem is not solved.

Vontaze is not the superior player.

LetsGoBroncos
12-08-2011, 12:18 PM
Vontaze is not the superior player.

Burfict sucks. I live in AZ and went to ASU. He is horrible. Way overhyped due to some big hits early in his career but he is out of shape, has a horrible attitude, doesn't hustle, and disappears for entire games.

No thanks

Agamemnon
12-08-2011, 03:07 PM
I wonder if Haggans could make the switch to the middle for the rest of the season, and find a permanent niche there?

He has a lot of the same physical limitations that Mays does. He's just not a good enough athlete to be a good Mike. They both were better fits as 3-4 ILB's unfortunately.

broncosteven
12-08-2011, 03:13 PM
Fox said he came in because Mays was cramping, and also had some really nice things to say about Irving.

Good, It would be nice if Irving panned out and we didn't need to use picks at MLB.

Drek
12-08-2011, 03:55 PM
RB, MLB, and DT are equal in terms of need as far as I'm concerned. I listed them in that order more from personal preference than anything else. DT and MLB have equal culpability in our lapses against the interior run game as far as I'm concerned (though Bunkley has been a stud in my opinion), and to me where Nate Irving was drafted I see him as more of a depth player than a genuine answer at Mike.

To be more clear, the list of needs goes like this as far as I'm concerned (again listed in order of personal preference):

1. CB
2. RB, MLB, DT
3. TE, WR, S, G
4. C, T, FB, DE
5. OLB, QB

1. Irving was a 3rd round pick and has good athleticism for the position. There is still a lot of potential in that investment.

2. Bunkley has been solid, I wouldn't say a stud though. Where is the pressure up the middle? We need a DT who can stuff the run on 1st and 2nd downs and then help collapse the pocket on 3rd down. You put a guy like that next to Bunkley and he is more productive himself.

3. We need RB depth but it shouldn't be a high priority draft target because you can grab good RB options in the middle rounds.

To me DT is far and away our 2nd biggest need. We have no young potential there (Bunkley, Thomas, and McBean are all in their late 20's) like we do at MLB and to get an impact guy at the position you typically need to gamble on someone early in the draft. If this FO can do what no Broncos draft has done since we took Trevor Pryce, step out and draft a DT who becomes an impact player, we have the makings of a truly elite defense.

Agamemnon
12-08-2011, 04:47 PM
1. Irving was a 3rd round pick and has good athleticism for the position. There is still a lot of potential in that investment.

2. Bunkley has been solid, I wouldn't say a stud though. Where is the pressure up the middle? We need a DT who can stuff the run on 1st and 2nd downs and then help collapse the pocket on 3rd down. You put a guy like that next to Bunkley and he is more productive himself.

3. We need RB depth but it shouldn't be a high priority draft target because you can grab good RB options in the middle rounds.

To me DT is far and away our 2nd biggest need. We have no young potential there (Bunkley, Thomas, and McBean are all in their late 20's) like we do at MLB and to get an impact guy at the position you typically need to gamble on someone early in the draft. If this FO can do what no Broncos draft has done since we took Trevor Pryce, step out and draft a DT who becomes an impact player, we have the makings of a truly elite defense.

Pressure up the middle is not what we expect or ask of Bunkley. He's in there to clog lanes, and he's probably the number one reason we've gone from allowing 154 yards per game rushing last year to 121 this year. Dude's been a stud.

I don't disagree that we need another DT, one who can penetrate, or that it isn't amongst our top needs. I just feel that MLB and RB are needed just as much (we run too much to have such a shallow RB stable, and our rookie MLB has done zip to get on the field behind a sub-mediocre starter), and if we are going BPA and there's a RB or MLB and a WR that grade highest, I want the RB or MLB over the WR. But more than anything I want the BPA rather than reaching for a DT in a weak DT class just because it's a need. Even if it's at a position of lesser need like WR or G, I want the BPA, especially in the early rounds. Similarly, if a DT is the BPA in the 1st round I want us to go with that rather than CB, even though corner is our biggest need.