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fontaine
12-07-2011, 06:45 AM
My analysis of the 2nd half offense play:

Sorry in advance this isn't a Tebow worship thread.

Ball on 22
1-10: OL+TE blocking.
Negative: Beadles gets pushed back off the snap but then holds his ground.
Postive:Tebow releases the ball in 2 sec to primary read Decker over the middle for a 15 yard gain on a strong throw.


1-10: OL+TE blocking with Two wide.
Positive: Beadles steers his defender two yards deep, opens a big hole where Larsen steps in and blocks out the LB. Willis makes the inside cut on the B gap and makes the intial DB miss for an 10 yard gain.

1-10: OL+TE blocking with Two wide.
Positive: Delayed handoff to Willis. Larsen makes an awesome block on the blitzer who had penetrated inside to block him out of the lane. Willis explodes into that hole (B-gap again) where 86 Fells had already gotten to the 2nd level and cleared his way up the middle. Again, Willis breaks initial tackel and takes three defenders for 3 extra yards. Gain of 15.

1-10: OL+TE blocking this time outside of the LT with Two wide.

Negative: Kuper explodes off the snap but loses the angle on the DT allowing him to penetrate in the backfield but Larsen helps him out.
Positive: Fells again does a good job blocking inline to steer his defender outside and the left of the line explodes upfield allowing Willis to run outside for an 9 yard gain while Decker does a good job engaging 33 to block him out of the tackle.
Once again, it takes two/three defenders to bring down McGahee.

2-1: OL+TE blocking with Two wide.

Negative: Average push by the OL, Larsen is too slow off the snap, misses the run blitz completely and Clady gives up on his block of Allen who swims inside to stop Willis short.

3-1: OL+2TE blocking with Two wide.

First time we moved away from having Larsen in the backfield. Lance Ball's first carry in the 2nd half.
Positive: Vikings were stacked to stop the run here and the OL did okay to smash down at the line of scrimmage. Ball makes a great cut back to the right side at full speed for a 5 yard gain. If he was any slower the DE (Robison crashes the play). This is something I haven't seen Moreno do at all this year.

1-10 on Vikings 22: OL+TE blocking with Two wide (again) and Larsen back on a shotgun formation.

Positive: OL plus Fells provide great protection, Ball flares out, Larsen goes through the middle and is open but Tebow goes for the longer 15 yard pass play to Decker (pretty much the exact same route as his first pass this half but on the other side). Ball released in under 2 two seconds on a good strong throw.

Negative: Decker drops an easy pass.

2-10 on Vikings 22: OL+TE blocking with Two wide (again) and Larsen back on a shotgun formation now with Willis.

Decker motions inside beside Fells, signalling run play as we only have DT running a route and Vikings crash the line of scrimmage stopping Willis for no gain.

Negative: Predicteable, Conservative play calling.

3-9: OL, plus 4 wide, lone back and shot gun formation.

Positive: OL does a good job in pass protection especially Clady who has to deal with Jared Allen coming off an ungodly explosive first step, Tebow looks off the safety over the middle then goes to his 2nd read to a wide open DT in the endzone. TD.

Notes:
1. Billick routinely gets it wrong, praising the RB instead of the blocking, and then criticizing the pass coverage for DT's touchdown instead of realizing Tebow was looking off the safety help.

2. This was straight up smash mouth football with guys like Larsen and the interior doing a great job of blocking out defenders and Willis bowling over guys for extra yards.

3. Very conservative formations. We basically stuck to the same exact formation (two wide, OL+TE, Larsen/RB) for almost all of the all plays except for the 3rd and long TD pass. The Vikings have one of the best run stopping front 7's in the league. It just came down to execution. When the OL/TE/Larsen executed, Willis got big chunks plus extra yards after contact. When they didn't, the Vikings crashed or penetrated the backfield and stopped the run game.

More to come.

Paladin
12-07-2011, 06:55 AM
Good stuff. When you pair this with the video, clarifies what is happening. Sometimes, unless you can run the play over and over in slomo, it is hard to really see what is happening. This stuff helps. Thanks.....

fontaine
12-07-2011, 07:04 AM
Good stuff. When you pair this with the video, clarifies what is happening. Sometimes, unless you can run the play over and over in slomo, it is hard to really see what is happening. This stuff helps. Thanks.....

Thanks, that's exactly what I'm doing!
:~ohyah!:

fontaine
12-07-2011, 07:13 AM
Broncos get stiffed by refs three plays in a row.

Harvin stiff arms/mugs Chris Harris 6 yards past the line of scrimmage even though Harris was off and not playing bump and run coverage and then runs in for a long TD.

Quan Crosby returns the ensuing kick off into Vikings territory and refs completely miss a blatant face mask on him. The ref by the way was just 10 yards away from Quan and was looking back directly at the return. Dumba$$.


2nd drive of the 2nd half.

1-10 on Vikings 41. Guess what? OL+TE, two wide, McGahee/Larsen in the backfield. Same formation. Tebow on a shotgun. Vikings with 7 in the box playing cover two deep.

Positive: Great initial protection by the OL. A LB rushes upfield through the A gap but Larsen sees the gap forming and stops him dead in his tracks.

4 seconds go by and Tebow slightly rolls to his dominant left where Clady is doing a good job on Allen. But Clady has his back to Tebow and can't see that the QB has drifted outside the pocket. Allen does and instantly disengages and goes after Tim. Tebow ducks under him, stiff arms Henderson and throws complete to DT who rumbles for a TD.

Decker manhandles his DB out of DT's way. The DB just grabs Decker's jersey and pulls him away. Again no call by the ref who was just 10 yards away at the goal line, probably admiring DT's play instead.

Score 21-22 Vikings.

Broncos/coaches celebrate on the sidelines as the sound system blares out Metallica Seek and Destroy. Good times.

Kaylore
12-07-2011, 07:22 AM
Broncos/coaches celebrate on the sidelines as the sound system blares out Metallica Seek and Destroy. Good times.

:thumbsup:

BroncoBeavis
12-07-2011, 07:27 AM
Notes:
1. Billick routinely gets it wrong, praising the RB instead of the blocking, and then criticizing the pass coverage for DT's touchdown instead of realizing Tebow was looking off the safety help.

I saw Mangini go over this same play and he did give Tebow credit for looking off the safety. FWIW.

Paladin
12-07-2011, 07:44 AM
It is crummy how the refs miss calls against the home teams.......

Broncbow
12-07-2011, 07:48 AM
I guess this is a good place to expose how Tebow's development was sabotaged this game.


Let's take a look at what happened outside of the last minute of the first half shall we?

1st & 10 ~ incomplete fingertipped pass.

3rd & 9 ~ Completed pass

3rd & 4 ~ Completed pass

3rd & 9 ~ Completed pass called back DT out of bounds after review.

3rd & 19 ~ Completed pass


Can someone explain to me how we are supposed to expect Tebow to thrive under these passing conditions? Tebow has only one pass attempt the entire first half on 1st down; outside of the last minute where he managed to complete the last pass he threw which was on first down.

If DT's toe did not touch the line Tebow would have had only one incomplete pass the entire first half. How in the hell is that aweful. I'll tell you what is aweful, this sabotaging scheme that is strategically designed to make Tebow appear as being aweful.

Having 80% of Tebows passing attempts on 3rd down's outside of the last minute of the half is not going to cut it against the Patriots. Especially after Ponder just jacked the Broncos for 393 yards and 3 TD's.

2nd half Tebow passes it on first down of the initial drive and then again on first down later in that thrive to finally blast the vikings on 3rd and 9 for a TD. This is how you put defenders on their heels.

Imagine that next drive we run three times in a row and have to punt. Because we are only down by one. Go figure the Vikings score a TD and guess what happens then?

Tebow comes out shelling them with the pass on first down of that drive for a TD~!!

Go figure pnce we are down by one, Tebow does not pass it again until the 5th play of the drive, and imagine that it is on 3rd and 12. Tebow completes the pass but it comes back because of a holding penalty and we wind up punting.

Vikings score on the next drive and imagine that you guessed it, tebow throws on first down of the first play of the drive, he jacks the Vikings for 42 yards. Next play Mcgahee punches it in from 24 yards out. And Tebow ties the game with a two point conversion.

Vikings score on the next drive, now who can guess what the first play of the next drive is? You guessed it, Tebow passing it on first down. Pass is ruled incomplete and Tebow jacks the Vikings two more consecutive times for 52 yards taking the ball from the 20 to their 28.

Well now that we are close enought to take a couple strikes into the endzone or rather are in FG territory Fox ties it up by tying
Tebow's hands again cut him off to being relegated to a another 3rd and long pass attemt that falls incomplete. FG ties it up.

After a miraculous int that hands the offense the ball at the opponents 15 yard line, You'd think Tebow would get one shot at the end zone, One shot to run it, But nope... The demontrous effort to keep Tebow from taking the glory off the field is mind blowing. It is not only in black and white but predictabvle game after game after game.

Elway is indeed sabotaging Tebow, while exploiting his abilities in an as needed basis.

bowtown
12-07-2011, 08:03 AM
I guess this is a good place to expose how Tebow's development was sabotaged this game.



The Gators are truly horrible this year and Gainesville is a cesspool. Can't really blame Meyer for running for the hills.

Fontaine, please continue.

Dagmar
12-07-2011, 08:12 AM
Continue fontaine, he doesn't deserve attention

Blart
12-07-2011, 08:14 AM
I guess this is a good place to expose how Tebow's development was sabotaged this game.


Why don't you make a new thread for this crap, rather than ****ting up a good one?

Kaylore
12-07-2011, 08:15 AM
BroncBow, you suck.

jhns
12-07-2011, 08:17 AM
Why don't you make a new thread for this crap, rather than ****ting up a good one?

Why don't all of you ignore him, rather than making him the focus. That would keep the thread on track...

bendog
12-07-2011, 08:18 AM
On the drop by Decker in the first drive, I didn't see that so much as a drop. Yeah, it should have been caught, but Decker sold out for it. I'm not dissing either Tebow or Decker, because qb's are taught to throw low and outside, because if they miss or if the wr whiffs, there's little chance of interception. Tebow dould have made it an easier catch, but it was catchable. I groaned but didn't face palm.

Blart
12-07-2011, 08:19 AM
Why don't all of you ignore him, rather than making him the focus. That would keep the thread on track...

Why didn't you ignore my post? You just added another one and are helping to derail a good thread.

SureShot
12-07-2011, 08:20 AM
BroncBow, you suck.


I would like to know his thoughts on Ghostbusters.

bendog
12-07-2011, 08:20 AM
Stop talking football, dammit. Tebow is great.

jhns
12-07-2011, 08:20 AM
Why didn't you ignore my post? You just added another one and are helping to derail a good thread.

Because I don't care if the thread is derailed.

bendog
12-07-2011, 08:21 AM
You want the thred derailed, asshole.

fontaine
12-07-2011, 08:23 AM
Vikings punt next possession, Matt Willis blows up Royal on the punt, Broncos recover and it's the 3rd drive of the 2nd half:

1-10 on Vikings 22: Yes, you guessed it, OL+TE, two wide with Larsen/Willis in the backfield, Tebow under center.

Negative: The NT just gets underneath Kuper and the rest of the Vikings front four do a great job of holding the point of attack at the line.

Larsen runs into the back of Kuper (maybe to help him) then swings to the B gap and just gets an arm to a LB to slow him, but the run looks dead.

Positive:
Clady does a good job of stopping Allen from crashing inside which leaves the left side empty. Willis, never really slowing, just cuts back outside on a sweet move and powers for a 17 yard gain taking two defenders with him. The guys runs like a Mack Truck on rocket fuel.

4th quarter and this is the first time Billick mentions Larsen, except he calls him just the fullback.

1-10: OL+TE blocking, Two WRs lined up close in tight on either side with Larsen/Willis, Tebow under center and it's an obvious run formation.

9 Defenders in the box, no hole inside so Willis cuts outside the right tackle, 23 gets about a 5 yard start to slam Willis except he just bounces off of him and he gains two more yards taking two defenders with him.

Negative: Fells called for blatant holding even though Wilis had run past the defender.


1-20: Same formation as above.

Negative: Clady stumbles out of his block which is to the interior as Kuper is pulling out to the left. This springs Henderson free to take down Willis for no gain.

2-19: OL plus 4 wide, shotgun with Ball in the backfield.

Negative: Vikings rush five with one deep safety. Right side of the line can't contain the rush, Allen powers his inside and Tebow has three defenders converging on him in under two seconds at the top of his dropback. Willis/Ball just stand around and block nobody when Tebow runs even though he's running right at them.

Positive: Tebow shows no hesitation and bursts forward for a nice 8 yard gain.

Note: Billick says that he loves now that it's 3rd and 12 to see the growth and development of Tebow as a QB to judge how he can make the throw and convert. As if converting 3rd and 12 is a realistic expectation for any young QB. What a douche.

3rd-12: OL+TE lined up in pass formation. 37 motions out wide to make it 4 wide. Tebow in the shotgun.

Vikings have 4 down lineman with a LB showing blitz, then peels off to coverage and two deep cover.

Negative: Very low snap. Kuper gets off a good punch move but 93 (Kevin Williams I think) recovers and just slams away Kuper with a right counter that leaves Kuper nearly on the ground. Clady rollerskates his way back into Tebow and in two seconds the QB has two DL right in his grill.

Positive: Tebow sees Williams coming and in an instant evades the sack, rolls right and just rifles a pass to Willis on the sideline for a 16 yard gain.

Flag on the play: Crappy call by ref: Clady who grabs/slams Allen into the ground after Allen pushes his hands right into Clady's facemask. It should have been Allen called on that play but the ref just blew the call.

3rd and longer: Still pissed off at the last call, Denver runs some draw play to Ball for a small gain. Time to punt.

Notes: Billick continues his douche ways and ends it with completely ignoring Allen's illegal hands to the face on Clady, even in the slow mo replays.

A flag on Fells, poor pass protection, and a stupid call by the ref blew this drive. Even though Tebow/Willis's did enough to keep it going.

Broncbow
12-07-2011, 08:32 AM
Sorry in advance this isn't a Tebow worship thread.

Negative: Predicteable, Conservative play calling...

Totally describes Fox when the team is not far behind, how typical~!!

Not one negative take on Tebow, interesting considering the guy was not supposed to be able to play at this level.

fontaine
12-07-2011, 08:52 AM
Vikings score on the next possession. Aromushogu abuses Goodman, Gerhardt continues to abuse Mays and the run D, Harvin springs free for a long TD.

Dawkins dresses down the defense on the sidelines. Something tells me he didn't say "We're just trying to win a muth*****n game!"

Score 21-29 Vikings.

Broncos 4th drive of the 2nd half. 9:35 on the playclock.

1-10 on Viking 34: OL+TE blocking. Larsen/Willis in the backfield, Decker/DT lined up on the left, then Dekcer motions over right. Tebow under Center.

Vikings have 5 defenders at the line, two LBers with a safety cheating up into the box. Tebow reads the defense.

Henderson blitzes.

Negative: Franklin allows his DE to get beside him to start running to Tebow's blindside.

Positive: DT beats the jam at the line of scrimmage, powers downfield. Play action pass by Tebow releases the ball under three seconds for a perfect 25 yard strike to Thomas. Remember that safety cheating up and Tebow reading him? Well Tebow threw to THAT side of the field knowing the safety had vacated his coverage responsibility to go into run support. Heady play.

1-10 on Vikings 24: Same base formation. OL+TE, two wide, Larsen/Willis, Tebow under center.

Vikings with 8 in the box, two deep cover.

Positives: All of the OL stay upright and maintain clean, strong block. Larsen powers through the B gap, clearing a defender, Willis follows him to open real estate since their LBers were over aggressive and should have stayed back because the safeties were deep.

Willis breaks to the 2nd level at the first down marker with a head full of steam and two safeties, the right CB waiting. Willis jukes inside the middle safety who whiffs and lands on his a$$. He moves towards the Right CB, fakes him with the same move and leaves him landing on his a$$ and powers his way to the right sideline for a 24 yard TD romp.

Semper Victor Willis McGahee.

fontaine
12-07-2011, 08:57 AM
Willis juking the safety on previous play.

See number 36 at the top of the screen? He's next.

fontaine
12-07-2011, 08:59 AM
Willis juking the other defender (number 36) on the same previous play. 36 kneels down and does his "Tebowing" pose in awe of Willis McGahee.

You can still see the first safety Willis juked at the bottom of the screen. Still lying down, in a part awe/part humiliation induced coma.

fontaine
12-07-2011, 09:15 AM
Not much to say about the next play on the two point conversion except that some poor bastard (number 23) ended up in the C gap to bravely and foolishly try to stop Tebow from running it in.

Now, I've watched this on slow mo several time and two things happen:

1. Tebow nevers slows down. Even when he's running over the defender.
2. Number 23 ends up doing a side flip and lands on his butt.

TheReverend
12-07-2011, 09:15 AM
^ THROW A BLOCK DEMARYIUS!

fontaine
12-07-2011, 09:19 AM
Here's a better picture. The DB ends up doing a complete 180 when Tebow plows over him.

mwill07
12-07-2011, 09:36 AM
Fontaine> nice job putting this all together. Thanks.

I think it's important to note that this was a team win; it's not all about one guy. We run the football to win, and I would be more than happy if we continue to do so.

fontaine
12-07-2011, 09:53 AM
D holds Vikings to a FG on next drive.

Score 29-32 Vikings. Time down to 3:06, Broncos on their own 20.

1-10: Same base formation, you all know what is right?
Tebow under center.

Play action to McGahee, good pass protection but Tebow doesn't release (can't tell from the camera angle if anyone is open). Tebow rolls, slows to his right and eventually throws it away after 6 seconds.

2-10: Same base formation, but now with Matt Willis out instead of Larsen, Tebow from shotgun.

Vikings with 7 in the pocket, one deep safety with another peeling back into cover two at the snap.

Positive: (Matt) Willis stalls at the line then cuts inside over the middle and Tebow doesn't see anyone open deeper so dumps it to him over the middle for a 5 yard gain. Willis takes that dump off pass and works his way quickly across the field to the other sideline for a nice 1st down gain because McGahee puts in a great block over the middle. Good play Matt Willis who has much quicker feet and suddeness than Royal IMO.

1-10 on Broncos 32: 2:51 left. Same formation as before but now with Willis/Decker/Thomas switching sides and McGahee leaves for Ball.

Positive: Good pass protection. Willis runs a shallow route over the middle, decker runs deep, DT beats the jam to go along the right sideline. Tebow goes through this first read across the middle (willis is wide open) but chooses to throw a tight sideline pass to DT who's gotten behind his man, hits him in stride for a 30 pass plus yac gain. Ball is released in three seconds.


1-10 on Vikings 32: Original base formation, two wide with Larsen/Willis in the backfield, Tebow under center.

Handoff to McGahee who takes it outside the right tackle but he's slower now, maybe picked up a minor injury on his previous play. A couple yards on that play.

2-6: Same formation as above, except Decker is lined up close to the TE in blocking mode.

Negative: Obvious run, didn't work before from the same formation, doesn't work now, Vikings have 9 in the box and drop McGahee for a loss. Stupid predicteable call.

3-10: Most interesting play of the game for me. Broncos in shotgun formation with 5 OL, three WRs one TE and McGahee in the backfield.

Viking show 8 originally at the line! Tebow checks, Vikings three LBers/safety back off, but then come in again and it's all all out cover 0 blitz with two CBs playing off on a 10 yard cushion.

The Vikings would rather give up a FG here than the TD obviously. This is the game for the defense. In just over 1 second, four defenders close in on Tebow, nowhere to rollout and he throws a PERFECT 30 yard strike to DT where only Thomas can catch it deep at the one yard line.

That was the best throw I've seen a QB make in a while.

The CB makes a great play and just managed two wrench DT's hands off the ball otherwise it's a TD game over.

Some other minor stuff happened then, FG, interception by Goodman, some predicteable stupid runs and the game winning FG.

Well done specials teams, Prater, Goodman, you get the picture.

fontaine
12-07-2011, 09:57 AM
Fontaine> nice job putting this all together. Thanks.

I think it's important to note that this was a team win; it's not all about one guy. We run the football to win, and I would be more than happy if we continue to do so.

I wanted to create this thread for one reason alone.

On the road, against one of the best front 7s in the league in stopping the run, the Broncos offense dominated and destroyed them on the ground.

This SHOULD be the kind of game where everyone stops and takes notice of the exemplary job everyone is doing in the run game.

The only way we were stopped on the ground was either by committing penalties or in completely obvious run downs where we only had one WR. Other than that this was one of the purest exhibitions of running the football I've seen from the Broncos in a long long time.

fontaine
12-07-2011, 10:07 AM
And there's a second reason for this thread: This was an entirely new offense.

Not a zone/spread gimmick one but a conventional smash mouth offense with excellent blocking up front, a RB with great vision, combined with a WR with prototype size/strength and QB with the ability to look off safeties and then throw tight accurate passes to DT in under three seconds with play action mixed in.

Not zone blocking run plays, spread/zone options, constant rollout/bootleg, or screen and misdirection plays with a lot of shift and motion.

Just simple, straight ahead power football on the ground and using the biggest 1-2 WR combo in the league with Eric/DT.

You know the question that everyone keeps asking? How long can the Broncos have success with this (zone spread) offense?

Well this new offense in the 2nd half is more of less the way Baltimore/Pittsburgh have been going the last decade on their way to several championships.

mwill07
12-07-2011, 10:08 AM
I wanted to create this thread for one reason alone.

On the road, against one of the best front 7s in the league in stopping the run, the Broncos offense dominated and destroyed them on the ground.

This SHOULD be the kind of game where everyone stops and takes notice of the exemplary job everyone is doing in the run game.

The only way we were stopped on the ground was either by committing penalties or in completely obvious run downs where we only had one WR. Other than that this was one of the purest exhibitions of running the football I've seen from the Broncos in a long long time.

Agreed. I think it should be pointed out that almost all of our rushing success was out of traditional 2 back sets - this was not a product of zone-read option stuff, or Tebow doing exotic, unconventional stuff. This is not gimmicky, it's time-honored smash mouth football, attacking a teams strength, none the less.

If we can do this in Min, we can do it against anyone. Gives me hope for the upcoming Steeler game.

fontaine
12-07-2011, 10:10 AM
Agreed. I think it should be pointed out that almost all of our rushing success was out of traditional 2 back sets - this was not a product of zone-read option stuff, or Tebow doing exotic, unconventional stuff. This is not gimmicky, it's time-honored smash mouth football, attacking a teams strength, none the less.

If we can do this in Min, we can do it against anyone. Gives me hope for the upcoming Steeler game.

Exactly. This was the biggest game of this young offense.

Crushaholic
12-07-2011, 10:13 AM
Not a zone/spread gimmick one but a conventional smash mouth offense with excellent blocking up front, a RB with great vision, combined with a WR with prototype size/strength and QB with the ability to look off safeties and then throw tight accurate passes to DT in under three seconds with play action mixed in.

Not zone blocking run plays, spread/zone options, constant rollout/bootleg, or screen and misdirection plays with a lot of shift and motion.

Just simple, straight ahead power football on the ground and using the biggest 1-2 WR combo in the league with Eric/DT.

You know the question that everyone keeps asking? How long can the Broncos have success with this (zone spread) offense?

Well this new offense in the 2nd half is more of less the way Baltimore/Pittsburgh have been going the last decade on their way to several championships.

I noticed the evolution of this offense. No longer is it JUST about Tebow. More people are contributing, and I like it...:thumbs:

Rohirrim
12-07-2011, 10:14 AM
Magazu clearly knows what he's doing. This Oline has shown enormous improvement over this season. I can't wait to see what they do with a full offseason regime under their belts. I notice the biatching about Gase has mellowed out a bit as well. ;D

Rohirrim
12-07-2011, 10:19 AM
And there's a second reason for this thread: This was an entirely new offense.

Not a zone/spread gimmick one but a conventional smash mouth offense with excellent blocking up front, a RB with great vision, combined with a WR with prototype size/strength and QB with the ability to look off safeties and then throw tight accurate passes to DT in under three seconds with play action mixed in.

Not zone blocking run plays, spread/zone options, constant rollout/bootleg, or screen and misdirection plays with a lot of shift and motion.

Just simple, straight ahead power football on the ground and using the biggest 1-2 WR combo in the league with Eric/DT.

You know the question that everyone keeps asking? How long can the Broncos have success with this (zone spread) offense?

Well this new offense in the 2nd half is more of less the way Baltimore/Pittsburgh have been going the last decade on their way to several championships.

I found it interesting that they had Tebow in the shotgun for the overwhelming majority of the first half and third quarter, and then switched to having him under center for the fourth quarter.

vonqkilla
12-07-2011, 10:39 AM
Awesome analysis and pics fontaine. I rewatched the replay last night, good stuff micd up, dt had some good quotes. .

ghwk
12-07-2011, 10:45 AM
I guess this is a good place to expose how Tebow's development was sabotaged this game.

I barfed right about here. :bash:

fontaine
12-07-2011, 12:20 PM
I found it interesting that they had Tebow in the shotgun for the overwhelming majority of the first half and third quarter, and then switched to having him under center for the fourth quarter.

Well the first half was a complete waste. We only ran 18 plays for a reason.

2 false start penalties on Beadles/Clady.
2 fumbles by Willis/Tebow.
1 drop by DT and another one that could have been a 1st down but he didn't drag his foot down.
1 messed up play by Royal who chose to dance instead of just running downhill for a first down.
1 bumrush sack when Walton completely whiffed on his guy.

Almost half of the plays were negative mistakes by the offense. Not individually great plays by their front 7 but seven of our own starters shooting themselves in the foot at different times.

The fumbles were stupid and inexecuseable.

You don't sustain any kind of drives when 50% of your plays are negative. That's NOT on the coaches, play calling or game planning, but purely down to the players themselves.

Once the OL started to execute in the 2nd half, and we minimized the dumb penalties we basically dominated their defense and one of the best front 7's with just two basic formations, one for run, one for pass.

bendog
12-07-2011, 12:25 PM
I found it interesting that they had Tebow in the shotgun for the overwhelming majority of the first half and third quarter, and then switched to having him under center for the fourth quarter.

Yeah, I haven't finished rewatching the 4th qtr, but it seemed to me that in the second half, they were more or less going with a regular pro offense and a power rush scheme and not giving the zone read any love.

What I'm really unsure about was what Minny's defense showed in the first half. One of the annoying things about the Tebowites is that we have a head coach who has a rep for being more open and honest with the media than most, and Elway who was actually trying to communicate the FO's thinking on things, but the tebowites hysteria has pretty much shut them down.

nice thread, btw. thanks.

fontaine
12-07-2011, 12:29 PM
Yeah, I haven't finished rewatching the 4th qtr, but it seemed to me that in the second half, they were more or less going with a regular pro offense and a power rush scheme and not giving the zone read any love.

What I'm really unsure about was what Minny's defense showed in the first half. One of the annoying things about the Tebowites is that we have a head coach who has a rep for being more open and honest with the media than most, and Elway who was actually trying to communicate the FO's thinking on things, but the tebowites hysteria has pretty much shut them down.

nice thread, btw. thanks.

You're welcome man.

Would like to hear your thoughts once you get done watching the 2nd half?

Rohirrim
12-07-2011, 12:40 PM
Well the first half was a complete waste. We only ran 18 plays for a reason.

2 false start penalties on Beadles/Clady.
2 fumbles by Willis/Tebow.
1 drop by DT and another one that could have been a 1st down but he didn't drag his foot down.
1 messed up play by Royal who chose to dance instead of just running downhill for a first down.
1 bumrush sack when Walton completely whiffed on his guy.

Almost half of the plays were negative mistakes by the offense. Not individually great plays by their front 7 but seven of our own starters shooting themselves in the foot at different times.

The fumbles were stupid and inexecuseable.

You don't sustain any kind of drives when 50% of your plays are negative. That's NOT on the coaches, play calling or game planning, but purely down to the players themselves.

Once the OL started to execute in the 2nd half, and we minimized the dumb penalties we basically dominated their defense and one of the best front 7's with just two basic formations, one for run, one for pass.

If I had to guess, I would say they were running out of the gun to let Tebow get a better look at the D and give him more reaction time to the rush. Probably something McCoy and Gase put in to make him a little more comfortable against the best sack artist in the NFL. Once he showed that he was comfortable with his reads, they started doing more from under center, play action, etc. Hey, in the first half there was even a three step drop and a quick curl up the middle to Royal for a first down! They weren't touching that route just a few weeks ago. There were a few quick crossing routes too. As Tebow gets better and better I think we're going to see a more wide open route tree. It's been limited in Tebow's first games but it's expanding.

shovelpass#30
12-07-2011, 02:48 PM
great work - thanks Fontaine, appreciated^5

fdf
12-07-2011, 02:49 PM
I guess this is a good place to expose how Tebow's development was sabotaged this game. . . .

Is this a parody or are you serious?

DarkHorse30
12-07-2011, 03:31 PM
One of the annoying things about the Tebowites is that we have a head coach who has a rep for being more open and honest with the media than most, and Elway who was actually trying to communicate the FO's thinking on things, but the tebowites hysteria has pretty much shut them down.

I don't think Fox or Elway are naive enough to care about any hysteria....other than to relish the spot light it puts their team in. You can't buy this kind of publicity.

Think about it - EVERYTHING they have done has worked, and they will ultimately get all the credit and for good reason - I can't disagree with ANYTHING Elway or Fox has done.

Vine
12-07-2011, 03:47 PM
I nominate Fontain to replace McCoy as OC of the Denver Broncos.

bendog
12-07-2011, 03:48 PM
I don't think Fox or Elway are naive enough to care about any hysteria....other than to relish the spot light it puts their team in. You can't buy this kind of publicity.

Think about it - EVERYTHING they have done has worked, and they will ultimately get all the credit and for good reason - I can't disagree with ANYTHING Elway or Fox has done.

Oh, no doubt. Elway said initially his job was to win a championship, but the reality is that it's about selling the club seats and making the boxes be in more demand. Normally, a team does that by winning, but the tebowites don't hurt that either.

My only pt is that from what I see, we regular fans are not getting as much real info out of Fox and Elway than before they started taking tebowite criticism for ... tellign it like it is. they like the kid and he's getting better, but they really have no idea how far it'll go or what the offense will evolve into. Normally, you'd think that enough. But we went from having really the most open FO that I've seen to one that is going back to the stayed and true: don't say nothing.

Agamemnon
12-07-2011, 04:54 PM
I don't think Fox or Elway are naive enough to care about any hysteria....other than to relish the spot light it puts their team in. You can't buy this kind of publicity.

Think about it - EVERYTHING they have done has worked, and they will ultimately get all the credit and for good reason - I can't disagree with ANYTHING Elway or Fox has done.

Starting Orton at the beginning of the season worked?

SonOfLe-loLang
12-07-2011, 04:56 PM
Oh, no doubt. Elway said initially his job was to win a championship, but the reality is that it's about selling the club seats and making the boxes be in more demand. Normally, a team does that by winning, but the tebowites don't hurt that either.

My only pt is that from what I see, we regular fans are not getting as much real info out of Fox and Elway than before they started taking tebowite criticism for ... tellign it like it is. they like the kid and he's getting better, but they really have no idea how far it'll go or what the offense will evolve into. Normally, you'd think that enough. But we went from having really the most open FO that I've seen to one that is going back to the stayed and true: don't say nothing.

Im a supporter of Tim, not a crazy "tebowite" and I think Elway should keep his mouth shut and just say the right thing. You should show nothing but support for your starting QB in the public forum.

DarkHorse30
12-07-2011, 05:25 PM
Starting Orton at the beginning of the season worked?

yes....and here's why; IF Tebow starts the first 4 games and a Detroit-beat down happened at the hands of Oakland or Tennessee or SD, Tebow might be benched and Orton might still be starting. The way that it ACTUALLY played out made the move to Tebow make sense at the time. Remember that Plummer being replaced by Cutler was looked at in retrospect as a risky move.

When a new HC takes over he has to see what he has and Orton WAS the starter.

Vine
12-07-2011, 05:32 PM
yes....and here's why; IF Tebow starts the first 4 games and a Detroit-beat down happened at the hands of Oakland or Tennessee or SD, Tebow might be benched and Orton might still be starting. The way that it ACTUALLY played out made the move to Tebow make sense at the time. Remember that Plummer being replaced by Cutler was looked at in retrospect as a risky move.

When a new HC takes over he has to see what he has and Orton WAS the starter.

No. If Tebow would have been given a realistic proper chance to win the qb job in the preseason, he would have won the qb job hands down. Then, no Detroit beatdown ever happens. Maybe Tebow has a below-average game, sure, all qb's have below average games. Still, the Broncos would have started 4-1 instead of 1-4, and they would be 10-2, or 9-3 at worst, right now.

Broncbow
12-07-2011, 05:34 PM
yes....and here's why; IF Tebow starts the first 4 games and a Detroit-beat down happened at the hands of Oakland or Tennessee or SD, Tebow might be benched and Orton might still be starting. The way that it ACTUALLY played out made the move to Tebow make sense at the time. Remember that Plummer being replaced by Cutler was looked at in retrospect as a risky move.

When a new HC takes over he has to see what he has and Orton WAS the starter.

That is absurd. He threw one INT that game. Orton had 5 ints in two games. Defense got the beat down, by allowing Stafford to have his best game of the season against them.

Thanks for playing. Besides Tebow would have had the two months he has had now with the starters, having had preseason and TC, something he did not have during the Lions game, considering it was just his second start. Two months later and Tebow has nearly a perfect QB rating. Imagine that.

Make no mistake about it, benching Tebow for orton was a bone head move by both Fox and Elway, and that is a fact

Agamemnon
12-07-2011, 05:37 PM
yes....and here's why; IF Tebow starts the first 4 games and a Detroit-beat down happened at the hands of Oakland or Tennessee or SD, Tebow might be benched and Orton might still be starting. The way that it ACTUALLY played out made the move to Tebow make sense at the time. Remember that Plummer being replaced by Cutler was looked at in retrospect as a risky move.

When a new HC takes over he has to see what he has and Orton WAS the starter.

I never get tired of these crazy theories that try to make sense out of EFX going with a pile of **** QB like Orton to start the season. Just so awesome. Hilarious!

Agamemnon
12-07-2011, 05:41 PM
No. If Tebow would have been given a realistic proper chance to win the qb job in the preseason, he would have won the qb job hands down. Then, no Detroit beatdown ever happens. Maybe Tebow has a below-average game, sure, all qb's have below average games. Still, the Broncos would have started 4-1 instead of 1-4, and they would be 10-2, or 9-3 at worst, right now.

Indeed. Tebow would've looked so much better out of the gate with a training camp as the starter in an offense tailored to his strengths. His struggles early when he became the starter had a lot to do with being thrown into the fire without starter reps or a proper scheme. It should be obvious to everyone by now...

jsco70
12-07-2011, 05:47 PM
Is it time to drop the past and move on yet? Seriously...this is a great thread with some good football discussion and it's starting to take the typical turn for the worst. Who really cares about what happened in training camp at this point?

To the OP, thanks for taking the time to put this together.

Dagmar
12-07-2011, 05:48 PM
The trolls have over run an awesome thread. Excellent posts Fontaine, truly excellent analysis, much appreciated and great reading!

Bronx33
12-07-2011, 06:07 PM
Because I don't care if the thread is derailed.


you sir are a thick pulsating black dick.

broncosteven
12-07-2011, 06:35 PM
The trolls have over run an awesome thread. Excellent posts Fontaine, truly excellent analysis, much appreciated and great reading!

This is why after 6 years I fully embraced the Ignore function. Has made my experience here much more relaxing.

DarkHorse30
12-07-2011, 07:17 PM
The trolls have over run an awesome thread. Excellent posts Fontaine, truly excellent analysis, much appreciated and great reading!

Agreed. Yeoman's work, Fontaine, but that is selling it short. I am reading my Kirwan book on formations but it is so much more tedious to do that when I have an excellent resource available like that play by play breakdown. Thank you.

DarkHorse30
12-07-2011, 07:20 PM
Make no mistake about it, benching Tebow for orton was a bone head move by both Fox and Elway, and that is a fact

Fact. Tebow was never benched. Next.......

Agamemnon
12-07-2011, 07:25 PM
Is it time to drop the past and move on yet? Seriously...this is a great thread with some good football discussion and it's starting to take the typical turn for the worst. Who really cares about what happened in training camp at this point?

To the OP, thanks for taking the time to put this together.

When someone says that "EVERYTHING" EFX have done has worked, I've got to call them out on their bull****. Moving on from the past is not the same as trying to rewrite it.

Anyway, Fontaine's analysis was indeed awesome. I wasn't trying to derail things.

Jay3
12-07-2011, 07:34 PM
I overlooked it at first, but this was an epic thread. Rep to fontaine.

I totally felt the same way about the throw to D.T. that was almost a game winning TD. That moment was the single biggest stride in Tebow's development this season, IMO.

Agamemnon
12-07-2011, 07:39 PM
I overlooked it at first, but this was an epic thread. Rep to fontaine.

I totally felt the same way about the throw to D.T. that was almost a game winning TD. That moment was the single biggest stride in Tebow's development this season, IMO.

Yeah, reading the blitz, and delivering the ball that well with a defender in his face was 100% pure Franchise QB right there. Pretty good for a guy who can't throw...

Jay3
12-07-2011, 07:43 PM
Kind of weird, but as fun as it's been, the Vikings game caused something to click for me and and I now believe anything is possible this season. Anything.

If you add the best elements of all the games, the Broncos have quite a threat. They need to put it all together in one game.

1. Unstoppable, unpredictable runs by McGahee.
2. Unblockable pass rush beast mode by Von and Doom.
3. Interceptions by Champ and the DB's.
4. Polamalu-like disruption by Dawk.
5. Physical, aggressive play by Demaryius Thomas.
6. Crafty play by Eric Decker
7. Calm, efficient play by Tebow in passing situations.
8. In the late game, with the game on the line . . . . well, you know.

Jay3
12-07-2011, 07:45 PM
Yeah, reading the blitz, and delivering the ball that well with a defender in his face was 100% pure Franchise QB right there. Pretty good for a guy who can't throw...

He got it off quick. I wanted to see if his arm and mechnics can move as quickly as his mind and the play dictate.

I think his body mechanics are an outward reflection of what he's deciding. The faster he needs to go to do what he's recognized, the faster he can do it.

I think there will be times when he fires it out of there so quickly that we go "Holy cow, Tim! Where did that come from?"

Agamemnon
12-07-2011, 07:45 PM
Kind of weird, but as fun as it's been, the Vikings game caused something to click for me and and I now believe anything is possible this season. Anything.

If you add the best elements of all the games, the Broncos have quite a threat. They need to put it all together in one game.

1. Unstoppable, unpredictable runs by McGahee.
2. Unblockable pass rush beast mode by Von and Doom.
3. Interceptions by Champ and the DB's.
4. Polamalu-like disruption by Dawk.
5. Physical, aggressive play by Demaryius Thomas.
6. Crafty play by Eric Decker
7. Calm, efficient play by Tebow in passing situations.
8. In the late game, with the game on the line . . . . well, you know.

In other words you think the Broncos could be one of those perfect storm type teams like the Cardinals a few years back?

Jay3
12-07-2011, 07:49 PM
In other words you think the Broncos could be one of those perfect storm type teams like the Cardinals a few years back?

Yes.

I think Tebow's got a ways to go in figuring out the league, but the funny thing is he may be able to do some serious damage before they can get enough tape on him to disrupt him.

I think this run this year, he could look better than he will look next year, as he is called upon to do more and more against more elaborate pass defenses.

Right now, the Broncos games are kind of like two guys fighting each other with logs. The other team has to greatly simplify to stop the sophisticated ground and pound, and then the passing game is about chunk yardage. It could actually work in a big way, if they can catch some breaks (turnovers, Von sacks, explosive offensive plays, etc)

Agamemnon
12-07-2011, 07:52 PM
I think Tebow's got a ways to go in figuring out the league, but the funny thing is he may be able to do some serious damage before they can get enough tape on him to disrupt him.


The thing about that is whether or not defenses can figure him out quicker than he develops. At his current rate of improvement, I doubt it.

fontaine
12-08-2011, 02:06 AM
He got it off quick. I wanted to see if his arm and mechnics can move as quickly as his mind and the play dictate.

I think his body mechanics are an outward reflection of what he's deciding. The faster he needs to go to do what he's recognized, the faster he can do it.

I hope so. I know I might get flamed for saying this but Tebow still has the ugliest, longest throwing motion I've seen in a while.

Where Ponder was very fluent, the ball barely dipping below his shoulder pads, Tebow was winding up and fetching the ball around his waist to behind his shoulder and over his head. It took twice as long to get his throw off compared to Ponder.

I don't know if it's going to work long term or not, we'll just have to be patient.

But here's the thing. Last year against Houston he threw a first half interception. That pass came from a much smoother throwing motion where he didn't dip the ball down to his waist but threw it more like a convential throwing motion, but it went for an int!!

Go figure.

fontaine
12-08-2011, 02:08 AM
Agreed. Yeoman's work, Fontaine, but that is selling it short. I am reading my Kirwan book on formations but it is so much more tedious to do that when I have an excellent resource available like that play by play breakdown. Thank you.

No problem. Always good to talk football.

fontaine
12-08-2011, 02:13 AM
I nominate Fontain to replace McCoy as OC of the Denver Broncos.

No thanks. I think McCoy did a pretty good job. When the players individually made mistakes on 8 different plays out of 18 in the first half we went nowhere.

In the 2nd half, from the SAME power run formation they were churning out yards when they executed and minimized their mistakes.

I think it shows a lot of maturity and trust from McCoy to do that and keep calling the same formations, trust his players instead of panicing and trying gimmick or trick plays.

What was even better was how using the same OL+TE look, McCoy shifted the WRs around from left to right to exploit the mismatches in the secondary and they worked.

The only plays I would question were two run plays where instead of going two wide as the base formation they motioned over Decker to block in line with the TE making it completely obvious a run was coming with just DT out wide. It would have been better if they had called an option instead to Tebow, but then again, Tebow called option once in the 1st half on third and short and made the wrong call in going himself instead of McGahee who had a lane and Tebow got stopped short of the first.

You can see at the end of the play McGahee throwing his arms up in frustration because he should have gotten the ball but Tebow took it instead.

fontaine
12-08-2011, 02:17 AM
What's really interesting is the success rate of our runs that were going to 5+ yards a carry when Larsen executed very well. I said last year as well that Larsen does a great job of reading the play, anticipating where the hole is going to be and blocking out the defender and clearing the lane.

Apart from one play where he was slow getting off the snap, Larsen owned their LBers against a very active and strong front 7.

The downside ofcourse is that Larsen hasn't stayed healthy for an entire season.

Agamemnon
12-08-2011, 03:49 AM
I hope so. I know I might get flamed for saying this but Tebow still has the ugliest, longest throwing motion I've seen in a while.

Where Ponder was very fluent, the ball barely dipping below his shoulder pads, Tebow was winding up and fetching the ball around his waist to behind his shoulder and over his head. It took twice as long to get his throw off compared to Ponder.

I don't know if it's going to work long term or not, we'll just have to be patient.

But here's the thing. Last year against Houston he threw a first half interception. That pass came from a much smoother throwing motion where he didn't dip the ball down to his waist but threw it more like a convential throwing motion, but it went for an int!!

Go figure.

I've yet to see his throwing motion hurt him in games (fumbles, etc.). Honestly, I just don't get what the big deal is, other than it bothers people who are set on a certain way a QB "should" look. It certainly doesn't take "twice" as long for Tebow to throw the ball than Ponder. That's pure hyperbole.

Broncbow
12-08-2011, 05:50 AM
I hope so. I know I might get flamed for saying this but Tebow still has the ugliest, longest throwing motion I've seen in a while.

The brain factor pretty much blows this argument out of the water. When a QB's brain has the throwing motion of the QB precisely calculated. What does it really matter if it at times is a split second slower than your prototypical pass?

Brain speed has more to do with the pass than motion.

QB's like Brett Favre who had one of the longest wind ups I have ever seen in my life, still managed to win a Super Bowl, still managed to emerge as a legend.

Brain calculates the throwing motion of a QB, it begins making QB's like Brett and Tim throw the ball a split second sooner when they have the ball in a relaxed position than when they have it in a quick release position. This is why despite having an elongated pass the ball still manages to arrive at the exact place at the exact time.

A QB generally speaking has about 3 seconds to get rid of the ball, Tebow has however been known to all too often buy twice that time. In that span a QB taking a split second longer to throw while throwing it sooner exibits the same exact results. Exact.

There is a reason why Tebow only has one INT, its not as if his passes are being telegraphed to the point defenders can see them coming seconds in advance. Having a higher completion percentage in college proves that those who subscribe to the notion that a QB has to possess prototypical passing skillsets to be successful need to get a clue.

Success in the end is not determined by been about timing of a QB's motion, but the timing of the ball being delivered to the receiver, in the end it is all about the brain and how it equates the QB's motion with the receivers. This is why QB's like Roethlisberger are so overrated. His brain is slow, IE all the sacks and int's in clutch situations.

Ben has 4 times the TD's when the team is ahead than behind. He had twice as many the past two seasons. Since 2006 he has thrown nearly one INT per game, that is an 88% chance he throws an int in a game compared to Tebows 13% this season.

Just goes to show how rediculous using a super bowl to determine a QB's disposition is, IE Marino and Dilfer. I mean not even the quickest release in history bought Marino a Super Bowl victory. :thanku:

fontaine
12-08-2011, 06:10 AM
I have no idea what the above two posts say and I quite enjoy that.

(But I can only assume it's about the only negative thing I've said about Tebow on this thread - his throwning motion).

This message is hidden because Agamemnon is on your ignore list.

This message is hidden because Broncbow is on your ignore list.

jhns
12-08-2011, 06:22 AM
you sir are a thick pulsating black dick.

I was wondering why you were so obsessed with me.

Broncbow
12-08-2011, 06:34 AM
This message is hidden because Broncbow is on your ignore list.

:hitself:

HooptyHoops
12-08-2011, 07:17 AM
Thanks for the analyst fontaine.....Good stuff!!

bendog
12-08-2011, 07:28 AM
:hitself:

knock yourself out. Seriously.

kupesdad
12-08-2011, 12:09 PM
Well the first half was a complete waste. We only ran 18 plays for a reason.

2 false start penalties on Beadles/Clady.
2 fumbles by Willis/Tebow.
1 drop by DT and another one that could have been a 1st down but he didn't drag his foot down.
1 messed up play by Royal who chose to dance instead of just running downhill for a first down.
1 bumrush sack when Walton completely whiffed on his guy.

Almost half of the plays were negative mistakes by the offense. Not individually great plays by their front 7 but seven of our own starters shooting themselves in the foot at different times.

The fumbles were stupid and inexecuseable.

You don't sustain any kind of drives when 50% of your plays are negative. That's NOT on the coaches, play calling or game planning, but purely down to the players themselves.

Once the OL started to execute in the 2nd half, and we minimized the dumb penalties we basically dominated their defense and one of the best front 7's with just two basic formations, one for run, one for pass.

I agree with you in many cases (ie.. fumbles&turnovers) you have to give the vikings DC the credit by coming at the Broncos in a fashion that no one has accomplished to date. They took the option package completely away from Tebow and showed the the OL looks that they obviously havent used (because they haven't had to) that took away the Offense's game plan. The credit should also go to Fox and the OC and OL coach for making adjustments at halftime although if our defense hadn't had a great half we could have been out of the game by halftime. But thats why they play 4 quarters. I have other things that I have been told but cannot divulge. One thing I do know is the team loves the coaching staff, and they are starting to get more comfortable knowing where their qb is going to be and what he is doing 50% of the time. It is getting very interesting... go Broncos... I'm coming down for the Patriots game so anyone tailgating e-mail me, I would love to meet you!!

BroncoBeavis
12-08-2011, 12:19 PM
Where Ponder was very fluent, the ball barely dipping below his shoulder pads, Tebow was winding up and fetching the ball around his waist to behind his shoulder and over his head. It took twice as long to get his throw off compared to Ponder..

I just don't give a crap how the guy looks throwing the ball. On that non-intentional grounding call, I think the officials were seriously debating whether that Ponder throw-away was intentional or whether he just threw the ball that poorly.

I'm still not sure that wasn't a real passing attempt. The result was ugly, whatever it was. Not saying that stuff doesn't happen to rookie QB's. I knew though that had Tebow thrown that, the knives would've come out.

SureShot
12-08-2011, 01:35 PM
I agree with you in many cases (ie.. fumbles&turnovers) you have to give the vikings DC the credit by coming at the Broncos in a fashion that no one has accomplished to date. They took the option package completely away from Tebow and showed the the OL looks that they obviously havent used (because they haven't had to) that took away the Offense's game plan. The credit should also go to Fox and the OC and OL coach for making adjustments at halftime although if our defense hadn't had a great half we could have been out of the game by halftime. But thats why they play 4 quarters. I have other things that I have been told but cannot divulge. One thing I do know is the team loves the coaching staff, and they are starting to get more comfortable knowing where their qb is going to be and what he is doing 50% of the time. It is getting very interesting... go Broncos... I'm coming down for the Patriots game so anyone tailgating e-mail me, I would love to meet you!!


You are such a tease KD.