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Blart
11-30-2011, 12:49 PM
Nice article from a right-wing libertarian.

For those who don't know, the gold bugs from 1896 have been resurrected and are crawling the internet. They want to abolish our currency because a secret doomsday highway will make NAFTA our new government (http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul349.html), or something.

Their fellow conservatives call them crazy, especially the smart ones like Megan McArdle:

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2007/09/there-apos-s-gold-in-them-thar-standards/1858/

Here are the highlights,

1. The Federal Reserve destabilizes the economy with its "boom and bust" monetary policy. This is hard to square with the fact that the longer the Federal Reserve has been in existance, the more stable the economy has been. Dr. Paul's words strongly imply that he believes that there was no business cycle in the 19th century, which is untrue; as best we can tell, recessions were much longer and deeper before America had a central bank.

2. Americans don't save because they're afraid inflation will erode their savings. This is daft. Moderate inflationary expectations are built into the interest rates that banks offer. After thirty years of stable monetary policy, a good portion of the population doesn't even remember high inflation, and the ones that do are mostly retired and spending down their savings. Americans don't save because . . . well, have you tried the Wii? It's awesome.

3. American exporters are whipsawed by our fluctuating currency. Unless Dr. Paul has plans to put the entire world back on the gold standard--which I mote would require the kind of powerful international organization he's so suspicious of, or invasion--our currency will still fluctuate relative to others if we're on the gold standard. Every time the price of gold changes in another country, American exporters will either be helped or hurt by a change in the relative prices of their goods. The gold standard will shelter exporters from currency fluctuations only in their trade with other countries on the gold standard. There are no other countries on the gold standard.

4. Fiat money inflation benefits those shadowy figures who receive access to artificially inflated money before the inflationary effects kick in. Those shadowy figures being the bankers who loaned it to you so that you could buy your house. At any rate, this would only be true if we were talking about unexpected inflation. Expected inflation is already built into asset prices. The US economy does not have significant unexpected inflation.

5. Fiat money inflation "also benefit big spending politicians who use the inflated currency created by the Fed to hide the true costs of the welfare-warfare state". This is an extraordinarily primitive view of the money supply. The Federal government is not Caesar cutting his denarii with lead. The revenues from seignorage on 2% inflation are trivial. The Federal government gets the money for the "welfare-warfare" state just where it says it does: by taxing the bejeesus out of your wages.

6. Congress does not have constitutional authority to delegate its power "the authority to coin money and regulate the value of the currency". Hmm. Okay, but I'm pretty sure none of our legislators are qualified to operate a printing press, much less the annealing ovens and upsetting mills needed to mint coins.

7. Congress "should only permit currency backed by stable commodities such as silver and gold". Commodities, almost by definition, are not stable. The price of gold looks as if it used to be stable, because the dollar was fixed relative to an ounce of gold. This does not mean that its value relative to other economic goods was unchanged. You could fix your currency to the price of a bushel of wheat, and suddenly "wheat bugs" would be claiming that wheat is the only reliable, stable commodity in the world whose price never changes. That wouldn't stop fluctuating wheat supplies from whipsawing your economy back and forth. To be sure, the supply of gold changes more slowly than the supply of wheat. But demand for it is not so fixed.

Meck77
11-30-2011, 01:01 PM
Nah blart. Not because of the highway. They can't control the printing press that's why. http://www.businessinsider.com/bank-bailouts-2011-11-27 There is no accountability for the dollar, euro or even the swiss franc which was the last "safe currency" until they pegged it to the euro.

That leaves gold as the only true one world currency.

Fedaykin
11-30-2011, 02:33 PM
A lot of people worry excessively about inflation.

Inflation does erode the value of your savings (vastly over the long term)
-- if you are stupid and let your money sit in a savings account instead of a safe investment like bonds, CDs, etc.

The worst advice I ever saw was from a libertarian idiot who suggested that people put their retirement money in the bank (savings account) instead of an investment account -- because "oh noes!" the stock market sometimes loses a bunch of value over the short term! (never mind that money sitting in a savings account always loses value unless you get a *really* great savings rate).

However, inflation also reduces the cost of debt (inversely proportional to the reduction in value of savings). So, for example, if you take a 30 year mortgage right now and it costs you $1,000/mo right now, then in 20 years if effectively only costs you $600/mo (60% the original cost) and by the time the last year rolls around, it's only costing you $400/mo (40% the original cost).

This is why no matter how bad the housing market gets, you're not likely to see banks making long term, fixed rate loans for less than ~4% (the average value of inflation). At 4% they are breaking even. Less than 4% and they are losing money.

Inflation is both a *potential* enemy and a major ally.

here's the tl;dr version:

* Don't be an idiot: put your savings in investments appropriate to your tolerance for risk, but never in anything with a return average less than inflation.

* Enjoy watching your mortgage and other long term debts' real cost dwindle over its lifetime.

Rohirrim
11-30-2011, 03:21 PM
If we're going to back our currency with a commodity, I choose bacon. ;D

chadta
11-30-2011, 03:31 PM
MMMMMMMMMMMmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm bacon

epicSocialism4tw
11-30-2011, 04:50 PM
http://bacontoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/bacon-pancakes.jpg

chadta
11-30-2011, 05:24 PM
However, inflation also reduces the cost of debt (inversely proportional to the reduction in value of savings). So, for example, if you take a 30 year mortgage right now and it costs you $1,000/mo right now, then in 20 years if effectively only costs you $600/mo (60% the original cost) and by the time the last year rolls around, it's only costing you $400/mo (40% the original cost).

That is assuming that wages have kept pace with inflation tho. With stagnant wages inflation is a killer. The buying power of a dollar is lower but it still takes as long to make it. No way to spin that as a good thing.

Arkie
11-30-2011, 05:33 PM
All fiat money throughout history devalues and eventually collapses.

Fedaykin
11-30-2011, 10:03 PM
All fiat money throughout history devalues and eventually collapses.

All currencies devalue and eventually collapse.

alkemical
12-01-2011, 05:57 AM
http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2011/11/20111122155856959773.html

Robert Schiller writes at Al Jazeera:

Economics is at the start of a revolution that is traceable to an unexpected source: medical schools and their research facilities. Neuroscience — the science of how the brain, that physical organ inside one’s head, really works — is beginning to change the way we think about how people make decisions. These findings will inevitably change the way we think about how economies function. In short, we are at the dawn of “neuroeconomics”.

Efforts to link neuroscience to economics have occurred mostly in just the last few years, and the growth of neuroeconomics is still in its early stages. But its nascence follows a pattern: revolutions in science tend to come from completely unexpected places. A field of science can turn barren if no fundamentally new approaches to research are on the horizon. Scholars can become so trapped in their methods — in the language and assumptions of the accepted approach to their discipline — that their research becomes repetitive or trivial.

Then something exciting comes along from someone who was never involved with these methods — some new idea that attracts young scholars and a few iconoclastic old scholars, who are willing to learn a different science and its different research methods. At a certain moment in this process, a scientific revolution is born.

Bronco_Beerslug
12-01-2011, 06:35 AM
That leaves gold as the only true one world currency.Gold is NOT a currency (money) even though Ron Paul told you it was (the guy is a knothead lost in time).
Money is money, gold is an asset just as is oil, antiques, old cars, etc...
Everyone will sell you goods for money, try that at your local grocery store or Home Depot with gold.

I'll tell you what, you give me all your money if you don't think it's money and you keep all your gold. ;D

alkemical
12-01-2011, 06:37 AM
Gold is NOT a currency (money) even though Ron Paul told you it was (the guy is a knothead lost in time).
Money is money, gold is an asset just as is oil, antiques, old cars, etc...
Everyone will sell you goods for money, try that at your local grocery store or Home Depot with gold.

I'll tell you what, you give me all your money if you don't think it's money and you keep all your gold. ;D

Here's the other part of the equation too - If you don't physically HAVE the gold and you just have "certificate of ownership" - how much does that piece of paper really have value towards?

orinjkrush
12-01-2011, 07:01 AM
But its nascence follows a pattern: revolutions in ****** tend to come from completely unexpected places. A field of ****** can turn barren if no fundamentally new approaches to thinking are on the horizon. Analysts can become so trapped in their methods — in the language and assumptions of the accepted approach to their discipline — that their analysis becomes repetitive or trivial.

Then something exciting comes along from someone who was never involved with these methods — some new idea that attracts young thinkers and a few iconoclastic old thinkers, who are willing to learn a different approach and its different analysis methods. At a certain moment in this process, a revolution is born.

this dynamic works from cosmology to NFL quarterback usage. its how the species learns and grows.

alkemical
12-01-2011, 07:03 AM
Yep, good article though. Interesting perspective.

Arkie
12-01-2011, 09:09 AM
All currencies devalue and eventually collapse.

Not when they're backed by gold. You can create fiat out of thin air, but it’s a myth that you can create value out of thin air. The value of a newly created Fed note is siphoned off all the existing fed notes. It happens every time a new loan is made. That’s why our currency devalues.

alkemical
12-01-2011, 09:53 AM
Not when they're backed by gold. You can create fiat out of thin air, but it’s a myth that you can create value out of thin air. The value of a newly created Fed note is siphoned off all the existing fed notes. It happens every time a new loan is made. That’s why our currency devalues.

I'm not playing devils advocate - i just have honest questions:

Why gold, and not say platinum or other commodities that might have a higher value?

Fedaykin
12-01-2011, 11:53 AM
Not when they're backed by gold. You can create fiat out of thin air, but it’s a myth that you can create value out of thin air. The value of a newly created Fed note is siphoned off all the existing fed notes. It happens every time a new loan is made. That’s why our currency devalues.

Yeah, that's why there wasn't inflation before we left the gold standard, right?

wrong!

Any time you use currency instead of bartering (everyone paying for things directly with gold), you will have inflation (or perhaps deflation). Using a particular commodity to "back" your currency note does nothing to physically prevent excess creation of currency.

If you back your currency with a single commodity, you are at the mercy of the supply of that commodity. Changes in supply of that one commodity directly effect the value of your currency. If the world gold supply doubles, any gold backed currency loses half its value. This is a really bad situation, and is exactly why we switched to a fiat currency -- it provides a more stable value for your currency (yes, you read that right).

Not to mention there isn't enough gold in the world to back even the U.S. currency, so switching back to that standard would be devastation. There is only about $8T in gold in reserve in the world. This is about 1/10 the current world GDP. So switching to the gold standard would mean that gold would instantly become 10 times more expensive.

Guess what that would do to industry? You know gold is used heavily in industrial application (particularly high tech).

This would also mean every debt your currently have would increase in cost 10x. (see my OP) Do you want your mortgage payment to suddenly go up 10x in actual cost? Could you even hope to still be able to afford it?

Sorry bub, switching back to the gold standard would be insane and disastrous.

ghwk
12-01-2011, 01:08 PM
If we're going to back our currency with a commodity, I choose bacon. ;D

Beer. And I win already. !Booya!

Garcia Bronco
12-01-2011, 02:01 PM
If we're going to back our currency with a commodity, I choose bacon. ;D

Like you would find in a bacon, lettuce, and tomato sandwich?