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View Full Version : Skip Bayless Just Tweeted....


Bronco Rob
11-30-2011, 12:38 PM
https://twitter.com/#!/RealSkipBayless


RealSkipBaylessSkip Bayless





I definitely give Denver D half the credit for 5-1 resurgence. But where was it through 1-4 start? It all started (and finished) with No. 15



:strong:

McDman
11-30-2011, 12:43 PM
I'm going to assume had he wrote something bad about Tebow you'd be calling him an idiot.

Drunk Monkey
11-30-2011, 12:46 PM
un huh

alkemical
11-30-2011, 12:50 PM
https://encrypted-tbn3.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT-kDZrlaGRfsYp-E_y_LBIIKvzUqaBgjJzq0ki6N1U5RKa54HR_g

OrangeSe7en
11-30-2011, 01:00 PM
This is getting really old. The style of play that we've adopted on offense complements the defense. So yeah, the offense has helped the defense. When you don't turn the ball over, control the ball/run the clock, and have a good punter, you help the defense keep the scoring down.

So yeah, our defense has been huge but the offense is also helping the defense.

I was one of the people who wanted us to go for it on 4th and 1 in that overtime but I kind of respect that they stayed true to what they are by punting and letting the defense do it's thing.

jhns
11-30-2011, 01:02 PM
I'm going to assume had he wrote something bad about Tebow you'd be calling him an idiot.

You like a Bronco player? How dare you!

BroncoBeavis
11-30-2011, 01:40 PM
I was one of the people who wanted us to go for it on 4th and 1 in that overtime but I kind of respect that they stayed true to what they are by punting and letting the defense do it's thing.

I think we've got a kind red-headed-stepchild syndrome in those situations. We've been let down for so many years by our D, that it almost makes your stomach hurt handing the game over to them.

Luckily a pass rush makes all the difference in the world.

broncocalijohn
11-30-2011, 01:53 PM
At least it is a positive Tebow from media and not the "OMG! Someone said something mean about Tebow!" Then again, we need a thread about one statement about our QB?

Turd_Ferguson
11-30-2011, 01:57 PM
Skip Bayless is a sniveling worm. Just be glad he didn't start a rumor that Tebow is gay, like the one he started about Troy Aikman. Bayless is a piece of trash.

NFLBRONCO
11-30-2011, 02:05 PM
https://twitter.com/#!/RealSkipBayless


RealSkipBaylessSkip Bayless





I definitely give Denver D half the credit for 5-1 resurgence. But where was it through 1-4 start We played the Packers and the Raiders had Mcfadden and Orton was playing like a HS Player? It all started (and finished) with No. 15 and has nothing to do with bad playing offenses in this stretch



:strong:

Cool

Bronco Rob
11-30-2011, 02:07 PM
Skip Bayless is a sniveling worm. Just be glad he didn't start a rumor that Tebow is gay, like the one he started about Troy Aikman. Bayless is a piece of trash.



Join Date: Sep 2011


LOL

Popps
11-30-2011, 02:09 PM
http://images.sodahead.com/polls/002008517/1129216183_yay_answer_1_xlarge.jpeg

BroncoMan4ever
11-30-2011, 02:10 PM
the resurgance is not all because of Tebow. yes he has the team playing a lot more inspired, but you can't count out the resurgance of a healthy Doom and the effect that has had on Miller and the rest of the defense. McGahee who has been an unbelievably awesome pick up and his chewing up yards and the clock is helping the D as well.

Tebow deserves credit, but a lot of others need some credit too.

TheReverend
11-30-2011, 02:11 PM
Tweeters gonna tweet

ScottXray
11-30-2011, 02:15 PM
I have been glad that Bayliss supported Tebow when EVERYONE else said he was trash. And at the same time he often gets his priorities all mixed up and trashes someone else. He did give the Defense 50% of the credit, but he should tone down his support somewhat for the rest of the way and stop bashing the FO so much, for not having bought in sooner.

If he would simply support his position about one thing ( TEBOW) without making crazy statements about other things ( Elway/ Fox) that he has no concrete evidence for, he would sound almost sane a lot more.

Now that Tebow is playing and winning he is gloating about it. He should jump on the Von Miller Express, and support him for ROY, instead of gloating over Tebow wins..

I only hope that we carry the winning on for at least 3 or more games and can win the division. I honestly don't think a wild card is probable this year, so winning the division is our route of necessity, and I hope that we end up tied or better than Oakland.

The only down side to our winning the division is that it means Oakland won't and then probably will not have to give up that 2nd 1st round pick in 13.

Rohirrim
11-30-2011, 02:21 PM
This **** is never going to stop.

jhns
11-30-2011, 02:23 PM
This **** is never going to stop.

Good. That will mean we are winning SBs.

lolcopter
11-30-2011, 02:31 PM
Skip Bayless is a sniveling worm. Just be glad he didn't start a rumor that Tebow is gay, like the one he started about Troy Aikman. Bayless is a piece of trash.http://cdn3.sbnation.com/imported_assets/609470/george-constanza_medium.jpg

OEII
11-30-2011, 02:32 PM
https://twitter.com/#!/RealSkipBayless


RealSkipBaylessSkip Bayless





I definitely give Denver D half the credit for 5-1 resurgence. But where was it through 1-4 start? It all started (and finished) with No. 15



:strong:


Skip is one of the most annoying guys on ESPN and that's a real feat considering how many clowns are on that four letter network. The Tebow-love is strong in him, and its really annoying. As with all ESPN bafoons, Skip has little time or care for the facts.

The 5-1 defense is a culmination of a new defensive staff getting to know their players. They had no offseason, Skippy boy! You must have missed that fact while anointing Tebow’s feet all day long. Fox was hired not for his offensive prowess, but for his defensive resume. Good defense is synonymous with “Foxy Ball”. The 5-1 defense isn't Tebow'd, its a product of new and very good defensive-minded staff finally getting it’s imprint on it.

I know Tebow is football Jesus to these people, but for crying out loud, this is getting pretty stupefied up in here. The pedistal they put Tebow on is not healthy for Tebow. It really is. I feel for him, he's busting his butt trying to become a great NFL QB - basically having to learn how to play the position differently from how he's played it his entire life - and he has the wide-eyed awe inspired Skippy's of the world shouting from the roof tops that he's capible of parting the seas on the football field. No body can live up to that, and the moment he has another Detroit game, the kid's going to get buried. Tebow superfans really need to relax a bit. Let the kid become a great Denver Bronco and NFL QB. With all these zealots, I only see the kid crashing hard. I hope not but this may get ugly for this kid

Kid A
11-30-2011, 02:43 PM
1) Skip Bayless adopting the "#1 Tebow Fan" schtick is what it is (annoying, but no more so than everything he has ever done before in his life).

2) Football Outsiders made more or less the same point this morning, albeit backed up by stats:

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/dvoa-ratings/2011/week-12-dvoa-ratings

If we look at the Denver Broncos defensive numbers before and after Tim Tebow took over in Week 7, we see almost no difference...

Now, part of the reason why there's no difference is that the Broncos got clobbered by Detroit 45-10 back in Week 8. So what if we set the line after that game instead of after six weeks? Well, now we see a little bit of improvement, but still nowhere near as much as you might expect...

Now let's look at the offense. Look at the running game before and after Tebow took over as quarterback, and you'll see where the real improvement in Denver has been.

Statistically, the D has improved a little post-Orton. But the huge leap the Tebow threat has brought to opening the run game is what swung the pendulum from close losses early against the Raiders and Tennessee to close wins in 4 straight weeks.

MacGruder
11-30-2011, 02:47 PM
People forget the D should be carrying the team.. the D has all the talent. The d has all the experience..

But Tebow is over-achieving with the offense much more than the defense. Tebow alone made the run game go from the bottom to one of if not the best.

Also, for Tebow to be so successful offensively with Fox's offensvie ineptitude is especially impressive.

People say the defense is winning in spite of Tebow.. but the style Fox plays is detrimental to offenses.

OEII
11-30-2011, 02:48 PM
Statistically, the D has improved a little post-Orton. But the huge leap the Tebow threat has brought to opening the run game is what swung the pendulum from close losses early against the Raiders and Tennessee to close wins in 4 straight weeks.



Very good point.

Chris
11-30-2011, 02:53 PM
Tweedleedeedleedeet o^eo tweedleedeedleedeet
Tweedleedeedleedeet o^eo tweedleedeedleedeet
Tweedleedeedleedeet o^eo tweedleedeedleedeet
Tweet tweet tweedleedeet.

That is all.

pikkiwoki
11-30-2011, 02:54 PM
Skip just reacts to what he sees.

He picked his Sooners to beat Florida in the '09 BCS Title game.

His Sooners got Tebowed, Skip jumped on the Tebow train, and here we are.

Turd_Ferguson
11-30-2011, 02:58 PM
Join Date: Sep 2011


LOL

Join Date: Apr 2001

LOL

Broncbow
11-30-2011, 03:04 PM
Tebow deserves credit, but a lot of others need some credit too.

This is not an issue whatsoever, but what we are seeing here of late, is Elway leading a campaign of making it be anybodies credit but Tebow. This is BS~!!

bowtown
11-30-2011, 03:08 PM
This is not an issue whatsoever, but what we are seeing here of late, is Elway leading a campaign of making it be anybodies credit but Tebow. This is BS~!!

I always knew there was a reason that you never see Skip Bayless and John Elway in the same place at the same time.

bendog
11-30-2011, 03:09 PM
I was unfortunately a witness to bayless and that idiot who usually does the NBA on espn when I was in the lockerroom this a.m.Essentially, Bayless was bitching at the idiot for saying Tebow was still below avg for an nfl qb, and the defense and coaching were bitter(-: reasons for the change. Bayless was shouting that Tebow was the difference because the defense wasn't playing nearly as good before he got the job. Fortunately, I was able to save my sanity by turning the freaking tv off before I heard more

bendog
11-30-2011, 03:10 PM
This is not an issue whatsoever, but what we are seeing here of late, is Elway leading a campaign of making it be anybodies credit but Tebow. This is BS~!!

Elway's jealous of Tim and he fears his religion too. It's a conspiracy against white people of christian faith.

FRISKY_DINGO
11-30-2011, 03:14 PM
https://twitter.com/#!/RealSkipBayless


RealSkipBaylessSkip Bayless





I definitely give Denver D half the credit for 5-1 resurgence. But where was it through 1-4 start? It all started (and finished) with No. 15



:strong:

Skip also left out the OLine, Decker and McGahee.


Tebow's ability as a runner has made our offense unpredictable, which allows our offense to stay on the field longer, burn up the clock and keep the defense refreshed.

As a football player, Tebow has absolutely given us a spark.

As a quarterback, he has struggled and improvement must be made in order for him to keep the job long-term.

MacGruder
11-30-2011, 05:29 PM
As a quarterback, he has struggled and improvement must be made in order for him to keep the job long-term.

His struggles as a QB are due to Fox.. all QBs struggle under him. He's too predictable.. It's a testament to Tebow that he is able to win with Fox.

Tebow may be the only QB in the NFL that could win with Fox coaching. His ability to improvise is what makes Fox's ultra simplistic passing game work. And his ability to make mediocre runners around him look so great allows him to carry the offense and the defense.

Tebow's running is what opens his receivers up.. this is why he can score without the turnovers unlike Orton who had way more experience and prep.

TT's ability to dominate the time of posession is also a miracle worker for the Broncos aging defensive stars. It's like a fountain of youth for them.

TonyR
11-30-2011, 06:50 PM
...When you don't turn the ball over, control the ball/run the clock, and have a good punter, you help the defense keep the scoring down.

All true, but we're not controlling the ball or running the clock much more now than we were pre-Tebow. Our TOP is only up a little more than 2 minutes with Tebow, and that's largely because the clock runs after running plays but stops after incomplete passes. So while this may "shorten the game" (by 2 whole minutes!) it doesn't give the defense more rest between series, control the ball, or move the ball. First downs do that. The most important factor has been the bolded part.

TonyR
11-30-2011, 06:56 PM
The 5-1 defense is a culmination of a new defensive staff getting to know their players. They had no offseason, Skippy boy!

Not to mention the players getting healthier, getting comfortable with the system, getting comfortable playing with each other, and the younger guys getting more experienced. And then sprinkle in a dash of a conservative offense not turning the ball over as much and you have a formula for improvement.

KevinJames
11-30-2011, 06:58 PM
Lovers are going to give the D not as much credit.

Haters will give the D too much credit. Today I heard someone say we are the defense in NFL.....we are good but not the best cmon now.

Turd_Ferguson
11-30-2011, 06:59 PM
His struggles as a QB are due to Fox.. all QBs struggle under him. He's too predictable.. It's a testament to Tebow that he is able to win with Fox.

Tebow may be the only QB in the NFL that could win with Fox coaching. His ability to improvise is what makes Fox's ultra simplistic passing game work. And his ability to make mediocre runners around him look so great allows him to carry the offense and the defense.

Tebow's running is what opens his receivers up.. this is why he can score without the turnovers unlike Orton who had way more experience and prep.

TT's ability to dominate the time of posession is also a miracle worker for the Broncos aging defensive stars. It's like a fountain of youth for them.

He should be thanking God that Fox is his coach. A lot of coaches around league would have laughed at the idea of playing him.

KevinJames
11-30-2011, 07:08 PM
He should be thanking God that Fox is his coach. A lot of coaches around league would have laughed at the idea of playing him.
Let alone change the offense for him.

Jay3
11-30-2011, 07:18 PM
There's less than meets the eye. The non-turnovers, obviously. But beyond that, football goes like this -- in any game that's winnable, there are going to be moments that decide the outcome, when the opportunity to make a play that factors heavily in the outcome is there. When everybody knows it. When every player knows it's time to dig down deep and play his best ball and either stop the other side or move against the other side.

Tebow and his teammates have made those key plays. Orton and his teammates could not.

It really is that simple.

TonyR
11-30-2011, 07:33 PM
Tebow and his teammates have made those key plays. Orton and his teammates could not.

Very true. Orton wilted under pressure, while Tebow seems to be motivated by it.

Broncos4tw
11-30-2011, 07:41 PM
Where was the defense for the first games? You mean like.. when Doom was hurt and Miller was an incredibly green rookie? hmmm...

Defense, aside from the line, is about pressuring the QB. It's a huge reason there are tipped passes, picks, and drive-ending sacks. I credit a lot of success of our defense on Von Doom - we knew for years a solid pass rush was missing, and was the reason QBs were picking us apart.

Rohirrim
11-30-2011, 07:53 PM
Skip Bayless just tweeted: Tebow fap fap fap fap fap

Jay3
11-30-2011, 07:57 PM
Twitter should have been called Fapper.

Tweets would be called "faps" and so on.

troya900
11-30-2011, 09:07 PM
1) Skip Bayless adopting the "#1 Tebow Fan" schtick is what it is (annoying, but no more so than everything he has ever done before in his life).

2) Football Outsiders made more or less the same point this morning, albeit backed up by stats:

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/dvoa-ratings/2011/week-12-dvoa-ratings



Statistically, the D has improved a little post-Orton. But the huge leap the Tebow threat has brought to opening the run game is what swung the pendulum from close losses early against the Raiders and Tennessee to close wins in 4 straight weeks.

I also think it deals with the fact that Tebow is clutch and makes big plays and sustains key drives when they are needed for the win.

With AbOrton how many times was the game close and the broncos could tie or take the lead late with a drive by AbOrton that ended up 3 or 4 and out or he threw some stupid interception that killed any comeback. AbOrton is one of the most unclutch losers I've seen play.

OrangeSe7en
11-30-2011, 10:06 PM
All true, but we're not controlling the ball or running the clock much more now than we were pre-Tebow. Our TOP is only up a little more than 2 minutes with Tebow, and that's largely because the clock runs after running plays but stops after incomplete passes. So while this may "shorten the game" (by 2 whole minutes!) it doesn't give the defense more rest between series, control the ball, or move the ball. First downs do that. The most important factor has been the bolded part.

Sure it does. Every minute we have the ball on offense is a minute the opposing team doesnt have it. Duh. Nice job, genius. And don't fool yourself. 2 minutes of possession in games that are decided at the end and/or by less than one score.

Momentum
12-01-2011, 12:31 AM
This **** is never going to stop.

Oh it will. I love John Elway as our President:~ohyah!:

jhns
12-01-2011, 06:52 AM
Not to mention the players getting healthier, getting comfortable with the system, getting comfortable playing with each other, and the younger guys getting more experienced. And then sprinkle in a dash of a conservative offense not turning the ball over as much and you have a formula for improvement.

Which all happened at halftime in the SD game. How amazing.

OEII
12-01-2011, 08:09 AM
Elway's jealous of Tim and he fears his religion too. It's a conspiracy against white people of christian faith.

Anybody with this opinion about Elway is not a Bronco fan. Iggy you go

OEII
12-01-2011, 08:14 AM
Where was the defense for the first games? You mean like.. when Doom was hurt and Miller was an incredibly green rookie? hmmm...

Defense, aside from the line, is about pressuring the QB. It's a huge reason there are tipped passes, picks, and drive-ending sacks. I credit a lot of success of our defense on Von Doom - we knew for years a solid pass rush was missing, and was the reason QBs were picking us apart.

Good point, and the funny thing about the Tebow lovers is that they refuse to look at John Fox coached teams from years past. The Broncos embody Foxy Ball, not Tebow Ball. Last night, the NFL Network compared the 2003 Carolina Panthers (when they went to the Super Bowl) to this years Broncos. Its scary how the numbers are almost the same. Its Foxy Ball, with a Tebow twist, and I'm kind of digging it.

bowtown
12-01-2011, 08:15 AM
Anybody with this opinion about Elway is not a Bronco fan. Iggy you go

Pssst... he was was being sarcastic. I realize that's increasingly more difficult to know, with some of the ridiculously hyperbolic crap that's being spewed around here these days.

TonyR
12-01-2011, 08:25 AM
Which all happened at halftime in the SD game. How amazing.

What happened in the Detroit game? You think the world changed at halftime of that San Diego game, and that Tebow was the only factor. Did the Detroit game happen in another timeline? Perhaps another dimension? Or did it just not happen at all and we only imagined it? :rofl:

OEII
12-01-2011, 08:26 AM
Pssst... he was was being sarcastic. I realize that's increasingly more difficult to know, with some of the ridiculously hyperbolic crap that's being spewed around here these days.

Ok, I'm new...

jhns
12-01-2011, 08:32 AM
What happened in the Detroit game? You think the world changed at halftime of that San Diego game, and that Tebow was the only factor. Did the Detroit game happen in another timeline? Perhaps another dimension? Or did it just not happen at all and we only imagined it? :rofl:

We played a good team. The offense turned the ball over multiple times. They didn't run nearly as much as Tebow had over 40 dropbacks.

So the second half of the SD game, we see everyone playing better. They continue that the next game. The offense goes away from what it was doing, as they have a bad game, and the team fails horribly. The next four games, the team is great again.

Yeah, one bad game sure proves your point. They suddenly get better, have one off performance, in between good performances, and you use that as proof of something. You don't even realize that the rest of the team sucked when Tebows offense was turning it over and playing like Ortons offense. You really are dumb enough to not realize that you are proving yourself wrong.


"Tebows offense isn't the reason the team is playing well! Just look at their off day and how the entire team sucked when they didn't play well!"

Dedhed
12-01-2011, 08:48 AM
As a quarterback, he has struggled and improvement must be made in order for him to keep the job long-term.
This is complete fallacy, but people can't get away from it. It works if all you ask of the QB position is to throw pretty passes. By that measure Orton was a great QB last year, and Tebow is certainly found wanting.

If you define the position, instead, as leading a team to wins, Tebow certainly hasn't "struggled".

I just don't get how people love to denounce what Tebow has done because "he has to improve". Of course he has to improve, just like every young player, but people use that as an excuse not to give him credit for the rather amazing impact he's had on this team.

You can spin all day, but you can't argue with the fact that Tebow is THE leading reason for this team's turnaround.

bendog
12-01-2011, 08:50 AM
Do not speak ill of the Tebow! It is written

Dedhed
12-01-2011, 08:55 AM
What happened in the Detroit game? You think the world changed at halftime of that San Diego game, and that Tebow was the only factor. Did the Detroit game happen in another timeline? Perhaps another dimension? Or did it just not happen at all and we only imagined it? :rofl:
Basing opinions on anomaly. Strong!

TonyR
12-01-2011, 09:13 AM
Yeah, one bad game sure proves your point.

The offense has had more than one bad game since then, although you probably don't realize that because of your obstinance and the fact that your head is in the Tebow clouds. The offense was mostly terrible against the Jets, and was mostly poor against KC and the 2nd Chargers game as well. And yet the defense performed well. So once again, you're trying to explain something without factoring in all the variables (because they don't support your . Let me try to dumb it down for you: the conservative, Tebow led offense has helped the defense, and this is primarily due to taking better care of the ball. But the Tebow led offense is not the only factor, and it's probably not even the largest factor. I don't know why you keep arguing with me about something that is both common sensical and obvious.

jhns
12-01-2011, 09:20 AM
The offense has had more than one bad game since then, although you probably don't realize that because of your obstinance and the fact that your head is in the Tebow clouds. The offense was mostly terrible against the Jets, and was mostly poor against KC and the 2nd Chargers game as well. And yet the defense performed well. So once again, you're trying to explain something without factoring in all the variables (because they don't support your . Let me try to dumb it down for you: the conservative, Tebow led offense has helped the defense, and this is primarily due to taking better care of the ball. But the Tebow led offense is not the only factor, and it's probably not even the largest factor. I don't know why you keep arguing with me about something that is both common sensical and obvious.

You are a horrible troll. You have to at least try to make sense.

The offense plays the typical Tebow game, the entire team looks awesome. The offense turns it over and doesn't have 200 yards rushing, the entire team looks like crap. Orton plays, the entire team looks like crap. From this, you say the offense sucks and isn't much of a factor. You then claim you aren't a hater.

You are a special guy.

bendog
12-01-2011, 09:21 AM
The offense has had more than one bad game since then, although you probably don't realize that because of your obstinance and the fact that your head is in the Tebow clouds. The offense was mostly terrible against the Jets, and was mostly poor against KC and the 2nd Chargers game as well. And yet the defense performed well. So once again, you're trying to explain something without factoring in all the variables (because they don't support your . Let me try to dumb it down for you: the conservative, Tebow led offense has helped the defense, and this is primarily due to taking better care of the ball. But the Tebow led offense is not the only factor, and it's probably not even the largest factor. I don't know why you keep arguing with me about something that is both common sensical and obvious.

It's true that Tebow and the backs are not turning it over, and that's helpful to the defense. It's also true that Tebow's actual game performance is really not that great, but it's improving, and he takes it wayyyy up a notch when the game's on the line. No one ever said the kid wasn't a hard worker and a gamer. And all that was expected, though I did think he'd get more picks. However, I also think he's a large part of why the defense is playing really over its talent level. I knew he was a good kid, but his leadership marks must really be off the chart. I don't think some give him enough credit for that.

But the tebowites are beyond annoying, if you take them seriously. Personally, I think they should just be mocked, but that's just imo.

Jay3
12-01-2011, 09:23 AM
What happened in the Detroit game? You think the world changed at halftime of that San Diego game, and that Tebow was the only factor. Did the Detroit game happen in another timeline? Perhaps another dimension? Or did it just not happen at all and we only imagined it? :rofl:

Don't worry, you'll always have the tape of that game to cherish.

TonyR
12-01-2011, 09:26 AM
Don't worry, you'll always have the tape of that game to cherish.

Yes, Broncos fans love watching the Broncos get blown out. Good take. You should post more...

jhns
12-01-2011, 09:27 AM
Yes, Broncos fans love watching the Broncos get blown out. Good take. You should post more...

You sure seem to like it. It is the only time you are happy posting.

Now take your post, with this fact, and what do we come away with?

TonyR
12-01-2011, 09:31 AM
The offense plays the typical Tebow game, the entire team looks awesome.

The fact that you think the offense looked "awesome" the last several games, with the exception of the Raiders game, proves you're completely untethered from reality and not worth arguing with (to the extent anybody rational didn't already know these things to be true). The offense did a great job in the clutch to win a few of these games but did not play well or produce for most of those games. The defense carried us in those wins. The offense has averaged 14.3 points over the last 3 games. The goal of an offense is to score points. 14.3 points isn't enough. The offense needs to get better. This is no knock on Tebow as he is not the only factor. This is not saying that Tebow can't or won't get better. I can't make this any more simple for you, jhns.

Jay3
12-01-2011, 09:32 AM
Yes, Broncos fans love watching the Broncos get blown out. Good take. You should post more...

Just save some keystrokes, and any time you want to argue that Tebow isn't good or didn't contribute to a win, just type "Detroit game!!"

I've heard it a lot from commentators, so you'd be in good expert company.

I've been watching the NFL for 30 years, and I've seem some absolute stinkers from every player there is. There will be more to come. Count on it.

bendog
12-01-2011, 09:34 AM
Thou shalt not post of the Tebow's shortcomings. It is written in stone.

jhns
12-01-2011, 09:35 AM
The fact that you think the offense looked "awesome" the last several games, with the exception of the Raiders game, proves you're completely untethered from reality and not worth arguing with (to the extent anybody rational didn't already know these things to be true). The offense did a great job in the clutch to win a few of these games but did not play well or produce for most of those games. The defense carried us in those wins. The offense has averaged 14.3 points over the last 3 games. The goal of an offense is to score points. 14.3 points isn't enough. The offense needs to get better. This is no knock on Tebow as he is not the only factor. This is not saying that Tebow can't or won't get better. I can't make this any more simple for you, jhns.

The results don't agree with you. Sorry. You should realize how little you understand about this sport when your logic is so far off from reality. Tebow plays his typical "bad" offense and the entire team plays well. We win. The offense goes away from that typical bad offense and everyone looks terrible. The rest of the team was considered a problem when Orton was in.

You believe in ghosts. I know what I am talking about.

Study the game even a little and you will realize that there have been far more football games won with this formula than a good passing attack with tons of points. Fact.

strafen
12-01-2011, 09:39 AM
The fact that you think the offense looked "awesome" the last several games, with the exception of the Raiders game, proves you're completely untethered from reality and not worth arguing with (to the extent anybody rational didn't already know these things to be true). The offense did a great job in the clutch to win a few of these games but did not play well or produce for most of those games. The defense carried us in those wins. The offense has averaged 14.3 points over the last 3 games. The goal of an offense is to score points. 14.3 points isn't enough. The offense needs to get better. This is no knock on Tebow as he is not the only factor. This is not saying that Tebow can't or won't get better. I can't make this any more simple for you, jhns.You've got to realize, and perhaps agree that the play calling has got a lot to do with it.
Tebow can only run what it's called.
McCoy has been calling an ultra conservative offensive game plan(s).
Run, run, run and run some more. Those run playss can dominate the time of possession and put the other team in disadvantage, hence the low scoring games we've had...

I hope they can pass the ball more, but that can also translate into more offensive opportunities for the other team, and when you get to play a team like New England, you want to minimize the chances they have to touch the ball on offense.
So, there's good and bad with the dismal play calling. It's working for us, and as long as we're winning, stick with it.

bendog
12-01-2011, 09:42 AM
Why is the playcalling "dismal?"

jhns
12-01-2011, 09:44 AM
Why is the playcalling "dismal?"

Back to back QB draws. Can't beat it!

You are a clown.

Turd_Ferguson
12-01-2011, 09:51 AM
Just save some keystrokes, and any time you want to argue that Tebow isn't good or didn't contribute to a win, just type "Detroit game!!"

I've heard it a lot from commentators, so you'd be in good expert company.

I've been watching the NFL for 30 years, and I've seem some absolute stinkers from every player there is. There will be more to come. Count on it.

Miami, New York, Detroit, and Oakland game. From a passing stand point Tebow was very poor in these games. I understand his running has made the teams running game much better, but can you admit that he looked terrible passing the ball in those games? Is it such a terrible thing to say you want the quarterback on your team to be a high level passer?

If all you base Tebow on is his running ability then Adrian Peterson should be playing Quarterback. If you look at Tebow and say he has shown(not just say he could be) he is an NFL level passer you're delusional.

bendog
12-01-2011, 09:59 AM
Back to back QB draws. Can't beat it!

You are a clown.

you're tim's personal jizz cup

BroncoBeavis
12-01-2011, 10:02 AM
It's true that Tebow and the backs are not turning it over, and that's helpful to the defense. It's also true that Tebow's actual game performance is really not that great, but it's improving, and he takes it wayyyy up a notch when the game's on the line.

But you have to look at what the team is asking Tebow to do BEFORE the game is on the line. If you can come close to counting the passing attempts for the middle quarters on one hand... you might want to lower your expectations for QB production.

Then when they need points at the end, they open up the offense. Suddenly Tim looks competitive. I'm not saying Tim isn't better in the clutch. I believe he is. But the biggest part of it is there comes a point where the team has no other option but to let Timmy play his game.

If anything needs to improve, the coaches need to figure out a way to bring that out, at least periodically, throughout the game.

jhns
12-01-2011, 10:03 AM
you're tim's personal jizz cup

Great comeback.

A jizz cup that is far smarter than you. You forgot to add that part.

I really like where you and Tony defend starting Orton as the right move. You aren't haters at all. You are raider fans.

TonyR
12-01-2011, 10:16 AM
Study the game even a little and you will realize that there have been far more football games won with this formula than a good passing attack with tons of points. Fact.

So then scoring is a bad thing? An offense shouldn't do that? Your takes are getting better and better. Please tell us more!

TonyR
12-01-2011, 10:18 AM
Just save some keystrokes, and any time you want to argue that Tebow isn't good or didn't contribute to a win, just type "Detroit game!!"

I've never, ever said "Tebow isn't good or didn't contribute to a win". Ever. In fact, quite the opposite. When you have to completely make things up to support your argument then you really don't have one.

TonyR
12-01-2011, 10:20 AM
You've got to realize, and perhaps agree that the play calling has got a lot to do with it.
Tebow can only run what it's called.

Absolutely. I'm saying the offense has to do better, and play calling is part of it. Your point is in line with mine. People like jhns, on the other hand, think the offense is perfect. Which is a laughable position.

jhns
12-01-2011, 10:24 AM
So then scoring is a bad thing? An offense shouldn't do that? Your takes are getting better and better. Please tell us more!

That is exactly what I said! You sure love to prove me right.

maven
12-01-2011, 10:31 AM
To be fair, Skip doesn't think Tebow will be a top QB in the league.

OrangeSe7en
12-01-2011, 10:32 AM
So then scoring is a bad thing? An offense shouldn't do that? Your takes are getting better and better. Please tell us more!

He's right. It's also about time of possession, weighing risks, and helping your defense.

BTW, recently I think I saw that you said that the Broncos only increased their time of possession by 2 minutes, which is significant actually. But you were wrong with the 2 minutes. I just saw on TV this morning that Denvers TOP increased by 6 minutes since Tebow took over.

Rohirrim
12-01-2011, 10:39 AM
The results don't agree with you. Sorry. You should realize how little you understand about this sport when your logic is so far off from reality. Tebow plays his typical "bad" offense and the entire team plays well. We win. The offense goes away from that typical bad offense and everyone looks terrible. The rest of the team was considered a problem when Orton was in.

You believe in ghosts. I know what I am talking about.

Study the game even a little and you will realize that there have been far more football games won with this formula than a good passing attack with tons of points. Fact.

Arrogance from the great is difficult, but at least explainable. Arrogance from the meritless is simply pathetic.

jhns
12-01-2011, 10:41 AM
Arrogance from the great is difficult, but at least explainable. Arrogance from the meritless is simply pathetic.

Watching grown men cry is funny and it is pretty much all you do here.

Rohirrim
12-01-2011, 10:44 AM
Watching grown men cry is funny.

I would say the same about you, but I doubt the "grown" part applies.

orange 4 life
12-01-2011, 10:45 AM
To be fair, Skip doesn't think Tebow will be a top QB in the league.

It sure doesn't seem that way based on what he says.
Sounds to me like he doesn't think Tebow will be an elite PASSER but like many of us he thinks/hopes that the kid is SUCH a gamer that we can continue to win with him even if it is with an unconventional offense.

All the detailed analysis aside it could be fairly simple.
Tebow is SUCH an amazing and intelligent runner that even if/when teams DO figure out how to stop our option running game it'll take a commitment to put 8 in the box every down in order to do it.
And if that's the case Tebow will continue to have open receivers facing man coverage with at MOST a one deep look on 3rd and long.
That being the case Tebow doesn't need to be an elite passer or even an AVERAGE passer. He just needs to throw it well enough to give the receiver a chance to make a play and while he hasn't yet done that CONSISTENTLY he has certainly done it at times and usually when it matters most.
He's also shown improvement week to week.

Here's to hoping that continues for the next five games (or more if we make the playoffs!) this season 'cause if it does we may just have our franchise qb for years to come and combine that with our stockpile of young talent and this team may have really turned a corner. Very exciting to watch.

jhns
12-01-2011, 10:47 AM
I would say the same about you, but I doubt the "grown" part applies.

Aww, look at you trying to talk smack with the big boys. You need to get a little more creative. Iv'e heard better from five year olds.

Rohirrim
12-01-2011, 10:48 AM
I don't begrudge you for dumping the Chargers and trolling a Broncos board. Who wants to watch that biatch Phyllis and his whining week after week? Is that where you learned to whine?

maven
12-01-2011, 10:49 AM
It sure doesn't seem that way based on what he says.
Sounds to me like he doesn't think Tebow will be an elite PASSER but like many of us he thinks/hopes that the kid is SUCH a gamer that we can continue to win with him even if it is with an unconventional offense.

All the detailed analysis aside it could be fairly simple.
Tebow is SUCH an amazing and intelligent runner that even if/when teams DO figure out how to stop our option running game it'll take a commitment to put 8 in the box every down in order to do it.
And if that's the case Tebow will continue to have open receivers facing man coverage with at MOST a one deep look on 3rd and long.
That being the case Tebow doesn't need to be an elite passer or even an AVERAGE passer. He just needs to throw it well enough to give the receiver a chance to make a play and while he hasn't yet done that CONSISTENTLY he has certainly done it at times and usually when it matters most.
He's also shown improvement week to week.

Here's to hoping that continues for the next five games (or more if we make the playoffs!) this season 'cause if it does we may just have our franchise qb for years to come and combine that with our stockpile of young talent and this team may have really turned a corner. Very exciting to watch.

Skip has said it multiple times.

jhns
12-01-2011, 10:53 AM
I don't begrudge you for dumping the Chargers and trolling a Broncos board. Who wants to watch that biatch Phyllis and his whining week after week? Is that where you learned to whine?

That is much better.

Now why don't you switch over to the good side and join me as a Bronco fan?

TonyR
12-01-2011, 11:00 AM
I just saw on TV this morning that Denvers TOP increased by 6 minutes since Tebow took over.

Unless I completely botched the math, which I doubt because it's fairly simple, that is only because they're including the two overtime games which greatly skews the numbers. Clearly you're going to have more TOP in a 70+ minute game than a 60 minute game. I did my analysis of the OT games by taking a ratio of the total minutes and then multiplying by 60. I highly doubt they did that and thus their statisic is flawed.

BroncoBen
12-01-2011, 11:01 AM
I definitely give Denver D half the credit for 5-1 resurgence. But where was it through 1-4 start? It all started (and finished) with No. 15

Really.. this just go to show dumb Skip Bayless reall is.

At the start of the season.. 1. a few starters were out or playing hurt, Dumerville, Bailey. and 2. the Defense was learning a new scheme under Fox.

The resurgence is mostly due to the Defense and running game, yes Tebow is part of that running game.

jhns
12-01-2011, 11:02 AM
Unless I completely botched the math, which I doubt because it's fairly simple, that is only because they're including the two overtime games which greatly skews the numbers. Clearly you're going to have more TOP in a 70+ minute game than a 60 minute game. I did my analysis of the OT games by taking a ratio of the total minutes and then multiplying by 60. I highly doubt they did that and thus their statisic is flawed.

So it doesn't matter if you possess the ball in overtime? Is that really your argument?

Haters spins are terrible.

jhns
12-01-2011, 11:04 AM
Really.. this just go to show dumb Skip Bayless reall is.

At the start of the season.. 1. a few starters were out or playing hurt, Dumerville, Bailey. and 2. the Defense was learning a new scheme under Fox.

The resurgence is mostly due to the Defense and running game, yes Tebow is part of that running game.

The defense and run game that suddenly got better at halftime in the SD game? That unicorn jizz in the water was a fantastic idea!

Rohirrim
12-01-2011, 11:09 AM
That is much better.

Now why don't you switch over to the good side and join me as a Bronco fan?

Join you as a Broncos fan? Hell, if Tebow gets traded, you and your little Teboner friends will be out of here in a heartbeat, pretending to be fans of some other team.

jhns
12-01-2011, 11:11 AM
Join you as a Broncos fan? Hell, if Tebow gets traded, you and your little Teboner friends will be out of here in a heartbeat, pretending to be fans of some other team.

All better than being a whiney raiders fan.

bendog
12-01-2011, 11:11 AM
Join you as a Broncos fan? Hell, if Tebow gets traded, you and your little Teboner friends will be out of here in a heartbeat, pretending to be fans of some other team.

It would be worth another 4-12 year to lose these asshairs

orange 4 life
12-01-2011, 11:25 AM
This is complete fallacy, but people can't get away from it. It works if all you ask of the QB position is to throw pretty passes. By that measure Orton was a great QB last year, and Tebow is certainly found wanting.

If you define the position, instead, as leading a team to wins, Tebow certainly hasn't "struggled".

I just don't get how people love to denounce what Tebow has done because "he has to improve". Of course he has to improve, just like every young player, but people use that as an excuse not to give him credit for the rather amazing impact he's had on this team.

You can spin all day, but you can't argue with the fact that Tebow is THE leading reason for this team's turnaround.

This is pretty much how I see it.
Only difference is that I think Tebow is one of many reasons for the turnaround. Is he reason #1? I'm not sure but I hope so. IMHO only time will tell.

Beyond that I'm absolutely freaking mystified by all the arguing, name calling, and general hate being spewed here by so many.
Why does Tebow have to get ALL the credit or virtually NONE of the credit?
I'm not referring to you Dedhed (just happened to quote your post 'cause it's in line with my thinking) but so many people see it as pure black and white.
You either worship Tebow as the savior in the flesh or you're a "hater" and that is just ludicrous considering we're talking about a 2nd year QB who's started 6 games this year and 9 in his career.

Like Dedhed's post said he has clearly provided a spark, been a big part of the teams turnaround, and proven (even in this short a time he's proven it IMHO) to be an extremely special player that can elevate his game in crunch time.

He's also a raw talent with some issues in the passing game and like the post also mentioned OF COURSE he needs to improve.
The encouraging thing is that he HAS been improving and so we have reason to think that will continue. Will he ever be an elite PASSER? With that motion and footwork I highly doubt it but who cares?!!!!

He doesn't NEED to be an elite passer to be an elite QB. As I've mentioned before his incredible ability to run the ball (athletic ability AND intelligence) will likely mean he'll have receivers open as long as he's in the league. That being said he just needs to make throws like the one to Rosario on the final drive against the Jets. Wasn't a good throw by NFL standards but good enough to allow the receiver to make a play and move the chains. If he can make those throws consistently then I believe we can win long term with him as our franchise QB.

So what's wrong with that statement? It's not hate and it's not saying he walks on water. Seems to me it's just acknowledging his strengths and weaknesses which has somehow become a bad thing. I've never before seen a player so polarizing and it's a real shame we can't ALL just enjoy winning.

TonyR
12-01-2011, 11:34 AM
So it doesn't matter if you possess the ball in overtime? Is that really your argument?

Haters spins are terrible.

You seriously don't understand how OT skews the numbers? And how you can't compare TOP from a regulation game to an OT game? I mean you seriously don't understand this, or how I correctly adjusted for it in order to compare? Have you completed 7th grade yet? You act like a smart guy but I think you just exposed yourself here.

TonyR
12-01-2011, 11:36 AM
...people use that as an excuse not to give him credit for the rather amazing impact he's had on this team...

I'm curious who in this thread isn't giving him any credit for his impact on the team?

jhns
12-01-2011, 11:53 AM
You seriously don't understand how OT skews the numbers? And how you can't compare TOP from a regulation game to an OT game? I mean you seriously don't understand this, or how I correctly adjusted for it in order to compare? Have you completed 7th grade yet? You act like a smart guy but I think you just exposed yourself here.

Yeah, we didn't possess the ball because OT doesn't count. Got it.

Are you trying to argue something about percentage of the game that we possess the ball? No one is saying we possess it a higher percentage in regulation, by using OT minutes for our TOP, while not including it in the number they divide by. We are talking about who has the ball longer in games. Overtime is part of the game.

Please though, try explaining what you mean here.

Shotgun Willie
12-01-2011, 11:57 AM
For the millionth time, any possible increase in TOP under Tebow is meaningless if there is no decrease in the number of plays run by our opponents. Under Orton or under Tebow, our defense has stayed on the field the same amount of real (non NFL game clock) time and been out there the same number of snaps per game.

jhns
12-01-2011, 12:03 PM
For the millionth time, any possible increase in TOP under Tebow is meaningless if there is no decrease in the number of plays run by our opponents. Under Orton or under Tebow, our defense has stayed on the field the same amount of real (non NFL game clock) time and been out there the same number of snaps per game.

Then we should sell the magic potion that was given to the defense at halftime in the charger game. The suddenly got better argument is a good one.

Rohirrim
12-01-2011, 12:07 PM
This is pretty much how I see it.
Only difference is that I think Tebow is one of many reasons for the turnaround. Is he reason #1? I'm not sure but I hope so. IMHO only time will tell.

Beyond that I'm absolutely freaking mystified by all the arguing, name calling, and general hate being spewed here by so many.
Why does Tebow have to get ALL the credit or virtually NONE of the credit?
I'm not referring to you Dedhed (just happened to quote your post 'cause it's in line with my thinking) but so many people see it as pure black and white.
You either worship Tebow as the savior in the flesh or you're a "hater" and that is just ludicrous considering we're talking about a 2nd year QB who's started 6 games this year and 9 in his career.

Like Dedhed's post said he has clearly provided a spark, been a big part of the teams turnaround, and proven (even in this short a time he's proven it IMHO) to be an extremely special player that can elevate his game in crunch time.

He's also a raw talent with some issues in the passing game and like the post also mentioned OF COURSE he needs to improve.
The encouraging thing is that he HAS been improving and so we have reason to think that will continue. Will he ever be an elite PASSER? With that motion and footwork I highly doubt it but who cares?!!!!

He doesn't NEED to be an elite passer to be an elite QB. As I've mentioned before his incredible ability to run the ball (athletic ability AND intelligence) will likely mean he'll have receivers open as long as he's in the league. That being said he just needs to make throws like the one to Rosario on the final drive against the Jets. Wasn't a good throw by NFL standards but good enough to allow the receiver to make a play and move the chains. If he can make those throws consistently then I believe we can win long term with him as our franchise QB.

So what's wrong with that statement? It's not hate and it's not saying he walks on water. Seems to me it's just acknowledging his strengths and weaknesses which has somehow become a bad thing. I've never before seen a player so polarizing and it's a real shame we can't ALL just enjoy winning.

It's the times we live in. Psycho partisanship rules the day. I've given up trying to tell people on here that I'm excited to watch Tebow play, am happy for what he's brought to the team, look forward to watching this new scheme unfold (although all the up the middle runs sometimes infuriate me), don't find all the overt religious stuff very appealing, am worried about the reduced route tree the coaching staff is forced into because of Tebow's under-developed passing skills, and wonder if Tebow is the QBOTF for the Broncos while continuing to enjoy the wins. I think my position is too nuanced for the extremists. ;D

Shotgun Willie
12-01-2011, 12:13 PM
Then we should sell the magic potion that was given to the defense at halftime in the charger game. The suddenly got better argument is a good one.

You can argue with someone else about that, then. It's not my stance.

bendog
12-01-2011, 12:15 PM
It's the times we live in. Psycho partisanship rules the day. I've given up trying to tell people on here that I'm excited to watch Tebow play, am happy for what he's brought to the team, look forward to watching this new scheme unfold (although all the up the middle runs sometimes infuriate me), don't find all the overt religious stuff very appealing, am worried about the reduced route tree the coaching staff is forced into because of Tebow's under-developed passing skills, and wonder if Tebow is the QBOTF for the Broncos while continuing to enjoy the wins. I think my position is too nuanced for the extremists. ;D

his passing skills don't worry me so much, because I think that if they don't improve dramatically this offseason, teams will adjust and we'll go back to losing, and Elway will find a qb somewhere. But as you said, it's sort of fun to watch. It's different. And orton was depressing to watch.

TonyR
12-01-2011, 12:36 PM
Yeah, we didn't possess the ball because OT doesn't count. Got it.

Are you trying to argue something about percentage of the game that we possess the ball? No one is saying we possess it a higher percentage in regulation, by using OT minutes for our TOP, while not including it in the number they divide by. We are talking about who has the ball longer in games. Overtime is part of the game.

Please though, try explaining what you mean here.

LOL :rofl: LOL :rofl: LOL :rofl: LOL

He really doesn't get it! At least he admits it...

Okay, dopey, let me explain.

QB A plays in a 60 minute game. His offense controls the ball for 31 minutes (meaning the opponent had it for 29, assuming you can figure out that 60-31=29...).

QB B plays in a 70 minute OT game. His offense controls the ball for 34 minutes (meaning the opponent had it for 36 minutes, once again assuming you can do basic math...).

By jhns logic QB B had superior TOP. Why would a simple minded person think this? Well of course because 34>31. But unfortunately everything isn't black and white in the real world like it is in jhns' world. In the real world, using a little bit of logic, one would note that you can't compare the two. QB A's offense actually controlled the ball "better" than QB B's. QB A's offense held the ball for 51.7% of the game, QB B's offense for 48.6% of the game. If you normalize QB B's TOP you would get ~29 (48.6% x 60) minutes. That's the only way you can make the comparison. The result is that 31>29.

Now jhns I'm sorry to have to embarrass you like that. I realize that kind of analysis is well beyond your abilities. But you should probably not so vehemently oppose a person who knows what he's talking about when you don't. Lesson learned, right? No hard feelings?

jhns
12-01-2011, 12:47 PM
LOL :rofl: LOL :rofl: LOL :rofl: LOL

He really doesn't get it! At least he admits it...

Okay, dopey, let me explain.

QB A plays in a 60 minute game. His offense controls the ball for 31 minutes (meaning the opponent had it for 29, assuming you can figure out that 60-31=29...).

QB B plays in a 70 minute OT game. His offense controls the ball for 34 minutes (meaning the opponent had it for 36 minutes, once again assuming you can do basic math...).

By jhns logic QB B had superior TOP. Why would a simple minded person think this? Well of course because 34>31. But unfortunately everything isn't black and white in the real world like it is in jhns' world. In the real world, using a little bit of logic, one would note that you can't compare the two. QB A's offense actually controlled the ball "better" than QB B's. QB A's offense held the ball for 51.7% of the game, QB B's offense for 48.6% of the game. If you normalize QB B's TOP you would get ~29 (48.6% x 60) minutes. That's the only way you can make the comparison. The result is that 31>29.

Now jhns I'm sorry to have to embarrass you like that. I realize that kind of analysis is well beyond your abilities. But you should probably not so vehemently oppose a person who knows what he's talking about when you don't. Lesson learned, right? No hard feelings?

So we are assuming they don't know what OT is and aren't saying the difference between us and oppenents changed that much? You got this by your made up formula to take out OT?

I see. The assumtion argument is always interesting.

orange 4 life
12-01-2011, 12:53 PM
It's the times we live in. Psycho partisanship rules the day. I've given up trying to tell people on here that I'm excited to watch Tebow play, am happy for what he's brought to the team, look forward to watching this new scheme unfold (although all the up the middle runs sometimes infuriate me), don't find all the overt religious stuff very appealing, am worried about the reduced route tree the coaching staff is forced into because of Tebow's under-developed passing skills, and wonder if Tebow is the QBOTF for the Broncos while continuing to enjoy the wins. I think my position is too nuanced for the extremists. ;D

Well said brother. And times we live in or not it's still shocking to me that everyone doesn't agree on this or at the LEAST respect that it's an opinion NOT completely biased one way or the other.
I just can't believe that so many people want to force you into taking one extremist belief or another. What happened to objectivity?

Shotgun Willie
12-01-2011, 12:58 PM
What happened to objectivity?

To be honest, I don't believe there's such a thing when humans are involved. Pure objectivity is impossible IMO.

TonyR
12-01-2011, 01:05 PM
I see.

No, the trouble is you don't see. This is well above your pay grade. You can't say Tebow has increased Denver's average TOP without saying 4 minutes (or whatever the number is) of that increase is due to OT games. You have to normalize the numbers, which is what I did. Nothing made up about it. Just because something is too complicated for you doesn't make it made up or wrong. I'm surprised at this point that you've figured out how to breathe.

bendog
12-01-2011, 01:06 PM
To be honest, I don't believe there's such a thing when humans are involved. Pure objectivity is impossible IMO.

I'm totally objective to beers. I like all of them that don't have fruit or spices, though the Sam Adams Pumkin stuff was ... sort of good. I worried I might go gay but so far I haven't had any desires that way and the women in my office look good

Turd_Ferguson
12-01-2011, 01:11 PM
Aww, look at you trying to talk smack with the big boys. You need to get a little more creative. Iv'e heard better from five year olds.

You seem like the type that hangs around five year old boys.

jhns
12-01-2011, 01:11 PM
No, the trouble is you don't see. This is well above your pay grade. You can't say Tebow has increased Denver's average TOP without saying 4 minutes (or whatever the number is) of that increase is due to OT games. You have to normalize the numbers, which is what I did. Nothing made up about it. Just because something is too complicated for you doesn't make it made up or wrong. I'm surprised at this point that you've figured out how to breathe.

The difference in TOP, which is the amount of time that we posssess the ball vs how much time the other team possesses the ball, is over 4.5 minutes more than with Orton. It closes in on that six number if he heard it a week or two ago. (All of this is exculding the charger game)

It has nothing to do with the total time the team posssesed the ball. It is how much the difference has changed.

You keep talking about my inability to grasp this simple concept, as you fail to grasp this simple concept.

jhns
12-01-2011, 01:13 PM
You seem like the type that hangs around five year old boys.

Says the raider fan.

Yes, I do hang out with my nephews.

TonyR
12-01-2011, 01:19 PM
Pure objectivity is impossible IMO.

Agree. But you can be biased but still be rational and reasonable. Some people aren't. Note how anyone who notes anything on the wrong side of neutral regarding Tebow gets attacked and labeled a hater or a troll by some of these idiots. That's neither rational nor reasonable. You have to make at least some effort to approach a middle ground. Giving Tebow credit, but not all the credit or even most of the credit, is doing just that. Some people refuse to even consider another point of view.

jhns
12-01-2011, 01:21 PM
Agree. But you can be biased but still be rational and reasonable. Some people aren't. Note how anyone who notes anything on the wrong side of neutral regarding Tebow gets attacked and labeled a hater or a troll by some of these idiots. That's neither rational nor reasonable. You have to make at least some effort to approach a middle ground. Giving Tebow credit, but not all the credit or even most of the credit, is doing just that. Some people refuse to even consider another point of view.

LOL

Yeah right. Says the guy that refutes everything positive said, even facts.

BroncoBeavis
12-01-2011, 01:22 PM
That being the case Tebow doesn't need to be an elite passer or even an AVERAGE passer. He just needs to throw it well enough to give the receiver a chance to make a play and while he hasn't yet done that CONSISTENTLY he has certainly done it at times and usually when it matters most.

If this team had one elite receiver that could pull down jump balls in single coverage, teams would absolutely FEAR the Denver Broncos.

orange 4 life
12-01-2011, 01:32 PM
To be honest, I don't believe there's such a thing when humans are involved. Pure objectivity is impossible IMO.

True but as Tony pointed out I'm just talking about finding ANY kind of middle ground.
In other words one does not have to think Tebow is a god amongst mortals OR a horrendous excuse for a QB but a whole lot of people want to try and force everyone to choose one extreme or another. It's gotten ridiculous.

I just don't understand all the arguing (much of it downright nasty) amongst a group of people that root for the same team!!
What's wrong with a simple and rational opinion?
Tebow is an amazing athlete with the ability to elevate his play (and that of others around him) when it matters most. He also has issues in the passing game that he needs to improve in order to be our long term solution at QB.

Unless you're completely biased one way or the other I don't see why anyone would take issue with that statement.
And REGARDLESS where one stands on the LONG TERM success of Tebow and/or the team why can't everyone quit the senseless bickering and simply enjoy the fact that we're winning games?!!
We're in the hunt for a playoff spot for the first time in a few years and all everyone wants to do is argue as to who or what is most responsible. Enjoy it people!!!!

orange 4 life
12-01-2011, 01:35 PM
If this team had one elite receiver that could pull down jump balls in single coverage, teams would absolutely FEAR the Denver Broncos.

Fair point. I love Decker but he isn't a legit #1 receiver. Then again this isn't a traditional offense either and we saw how Lloyd felt about playing in it.

If we could get a selfless #1 receiver to add to the group we already have that offense would have the potential to be REALLY special.

Shotgun Willie
12-01-2011, 01:37 PM
If this team had one elite receiver that could pull down jump balls in single coverage, teams would absolutely FEAR the Denver Broncos.

Damaryius Thomas just raised his hand to respond and immediately separated his shoulder. He'll be out another 2-4 weeks.

jhns
12-01-2011, 01:39 PM
No, the trouble is you don't see. This is well above your pay grade. You can't say Tebow has increased Denver's average TOP without saying 4 minutes (or whatever the number is) of that increase is due to OT games. You have to normalize the numbers, which is what I did. Nothing made up about it. Just because something is too complicated for you doesn't make it made up or wrong. I'm surprised at this point that you've figured out how to breathe.

You know what I find funny? You continually try to call me dumb while you aren't making any sense.

I told you what the TOP difference is. That was a calculation of how much more we have had the ball compared to the other team. In other words, if there was 200 min in the game and one team has it five minutes longer, the TOP difference is five minutes. The length of the game doesn't matter.

Now I looked up our overall increase in TOP, excluding the first charger game. It is less than the difference increase is... It is just barely over four minutes, even with OT... You sure showed me!


"I'm not a hater! I just argue against facts that can be used as a positive for the offense! Just because I try to shoot down any positive argument, doesn't mean I'm not a hater!"

BroncoBeavis
12-01-2011, 01:43 PM
Okay, dopey, let me explain.

QB A plays in a 60 minute game. His offense controls the ball for 31 minutes (meaning the opponent had it for 29, assuming you can figure out that 60-31=29...).

QB B plays in a 70 minute OT game. His offense controls the ball for 34 minutes (meaning the opponent had it for 36 minutes, once again assuming you can do basic math...)

That may be true, but if we're talking the Chargers OT game, compare it to Orton's Chargers game from earlier. We lost TOP in the first Chargers game 2-1 (40 minutes to 20)

That's hard to do.

In our OT WIN against the Chargers, TOP was essentially even. That's a pretty big turnaround.

BroncoBeavis
12-01-2011, 01:50 PM
Fair point. I love Decker but he isn't a legit #1 receiver. Then again this isn't a traditional offense either and we saw how Lloyd felt about playing in it.

If we could get a selfless #1 receiver to add to the group we already have that offense would have the potential to be REALLY special.

You gotta sell it a little bit to a top notch receiver though. If you frame it by telling him that the other team's going to put 8 in the box and he'll basically be in single coverage all the time, and you'd like to exploit that... I think you could find some buy in, as long as the pay is right.

TonyR
12-01-2011, 01:57 PM
That's a pretty big turnaround.

Agree. But interestingly the Orton offense held the ball longer than the Tebow offense in that game. I calc the Orton offense at 10:21 and the Tebow offense at 8:30 but I'm missing 1:01 somewhere because our total TOP was 19:52.

jhns
12-01-2011, 02:00 PM
Agree. But interestingly the Orton offense held the ball longer than the Tebow offense in that game. I calc the Orton offense at 10:21 and the Tebow offense at 8:30 but I'm missing 1:01 somewhere because our total TOP was 19:51.

So are you ignoring my posts now? After all that trash talk?

Bronco Rob
12-01-2011, 02:01 PM
You seem like the type that hangs around five year old boys.





Join Date: Sep 2011


:rofl:

BroncoBeavis
12-01-2011, 02:02 PM
Agree. But interestingly the Orton offense held the ball longer than the Tebow offense in that game. I calc the Orton offense at 10:21 and the Tebow offense at 8:30 but I'm missing 1:01 somewhere because our total TOP was 19:51.

That may be true. But that's not really a fair look. The gameplan for that game was drawn up for Orton. They weren't playing for posession at all, which is kind of the point. Even though that's what Fox generally likes to do. We didn't have the running game to pull that off.

Plus by the time Tebow got into that game, already behind 13... scoring as quickly as possible was the only thing that mattered. Marking him down for TOP when he was stuck in a hole from the start doesn't make any sense.

jhns
12-01-2011, 02:04 PM
That may be true. But that's not really a fair look. The gameplan for that game was drawn up for Orton. They weren't playing for posession at all, which is kind of the point. Even though that's what Fox generally likes to do. We didn't have the running game to pull that off.

Plus by the time Tebow got into that game, already behind 13... scoring as quickly as possible was the only thing that mattered. Marking him down for TOP when he was stuck in a hole from the start doesn't make any sense.

Your second paragraph was all that was needed to be said. Why would we be killing the clock when we are down multiple scores?

TonyR
12-01-2011, 02:27 PM
Marking him down for TOP when he was stuck in a hole from the start doesn't make any sense.

I'm not marking him down for it. Frankly I think TOP is an unreliable and overrated statistic. My overall point has been that those saying the Tebow offense is "controlling the ball/clock" don't have a lot of evidence to back up such a claim. Other than the Raiders game the offense has largely struggled. The yards, first downs, and scoring isn't there to back up such claims. People want to say "better than Orton" but that's still not good enough. Very happy with Tebow's results and not hating him or trashing him for pointing this out. The biggest, most notable offensive improvement has been not turning the ball over and getting it done in the clutch. And that's huge.

jhns
12-01-2011, 02:31 PM
I'm not marking him down for it. Frankly I think TOP is an unreliable and overrated statistic. My overall point has been that those saying the Tebow offense is "controlling the ball/clock" don't have a lot of evidence to back up such a claim. Other than the Raiders game the offense has largely struggled. The yards, first downs, and scoring isn't there to back up such claims. People want to say "better than Orton" but that's still not good enough. Very happy with Tebow's results and not hating him or trashing him for pointing this out. The biggest, most notable offensive improvement has been not turning the ball over and getting it done in the clutch. And that's huge.

Thats huge, but the offense sucks?

Again, do you want to explain your TOP theory using the facts yet? I'm very interested as it is clear I am not smart enough to know what I am talking about.

BroncoBeavis
12-01-2011, 02:42 PM
Other than the Raiders game the offense has largely struggled. The yards, first downs, and scoring isn't there to back up such claims.

But the point of a run-the-clock/possession game isn't more overall yards or first downs or scoring. It actually has the effect of holding all of those things down, with the benefit of it also holding your opposition's numbers down. Which going back to that other thread about Tebow's stats being better than the QB's he's faced... it kinda bears that out. Comparing Tebow's numbers to Aaron Rodgers' will make Tebow look terrible. But then you compare Tebow's numbers to his opposition's and he looks pretty good.

Games played the way Fox wants to play them can't really be compared stat line for line with teams that throw all the time. You're only worried about the guy on the other sideline that game.

OrangeSe7en
12-01-2011, 02:49 PM
Unless I completely botched the math, which I doubt because it's fairly simple, that is only because they're including the two overtime games which greatly skews the numbers. Clearly you're going to have more TOP in a 70+ minute game than a 60 minute game. I did my analysis of the OT games by taking a ratio of the total minutes and then multiplying by 60. I highly doubt they did that and thus their statisic is flawed.

Nevertheless, even if you're analysis is accurate and it is 2 minutes, you're wrong in saying that insignificant, especially when you're winning a number of games in the last two minutes. And again, those two minutes are two minutes that we have the ball and the opponent doesn't. Two minutes is a possession, especially at the end of game.

jhns
12-01-2011, 02:51 PM
Nevertheless, even if you're analysis is accurate and it is 2 minutes, you're wrong in saying that insignificant, especially when you're winning a number of games in the last two minutes. And again, those two minutes are two minutes that we have the ball and the opponent doesn't. Two minutes is a possession, especially at the end of game.

It is over 4.5 minutes difference in TOP, from where we were with Orton.

TonyR
12-01-2011, 04:38 PM
It is over 4.5 minutes difference in TOP, from where we were with Orton.

Do you have something to back this up? If not, as I've said, I think this must include the two OT games. If I have time over the next couple days I'll run the numbers again and post it.

Bronx33
12-01-2011, 04:56 PM
Fair point. I love Decker but he isn't a legit #1 receiver. Then again this isn't a traditional offense either and we saw how Lloyd felt about playing in it.

If we could get a selfless #1 receiver to add to the group we already have that offense would have the potential to be REALLY special.



To be fair to decker he really hasn't got a (regular) throwing QB/offensive coordinator so we really dont know what decker is capable of.

OrangeSe7en
12-01-2011, 05:00 PM
Do you have something to back this up? If not, as I've said, I think this must include the two OT games. If I have time over the next couple days I'll run the numbers again and post it.

To be fair, you've already admitted to extrapolating your data.

TonyR
12-01-2011, 05:06 PM
To be fair, you've already admitted to extrapolating your data.

LOL I didn't extrapolate anything. I normalized the numbers so you can compare them and gave a very clear and simple example of how I did it and why it has to be done. This isn't that difficult. If you're going to compare average TOP you can't compare TOP from a 60 minute game to TOP from a 70 minute game. The results would be meaningless.

Agamemnon
12-01-2011, 06:06 PM
To be fair to decker he really hasn't got a (regular) throwing QB/offensive coordinator so we really dont know what decker is capable of.

He seems to be capable of a lot. But he just doesn't look like he has the speed and athleticism to be a dominant receiver in this league. He could overcome that. He wouldn't be the first. But at the same time, I think it's fair to see him as a #2 type receiver more than a #1 based off what we've seen so far. That said, he'll likely be elite amongst #2 receivers in the league in my opinion.

orange 4 life
12-01-2011, 09:12 PM
Damaryius Thomas just raised his hand to respond and immediately separated his shoulder. He'll be out another 2-4 weeks.

:rofl::rofl::notworthy