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View Full Version : Did The Lockout Indirectly Screw Kyle Orton?


RhymesayersDU
11-29-2011, 08:44 PM
All the Von Miller love got me thinking about something.

What if we had kept Orton as our QB? Might we still have gone on this run?

Here's what got me thinking about it. It's so long ago most people have probably forgotten, but early in the year, Von Miller was being removed on certain plays because he was missing assignments, etc.

Now don't misunderstand; the guy is awesome. And he's a freaking rookie. Mistakes are going to happen. But my question is, did this team need time to gel? Particularly on the defensive end, did this team need time to find itself that normally would have taken place during the offseason had we not had the lockout?

Look, I was as critical of Orton as anybody. And I love me some Timmy Tebow. (pause) But had our defense been like this from day 1, what would the story of this season be? Could it have been this good from day 1 with an offseason? Could this defense have kept Orton's job?

MagicHef
11-29-2011, 08:52 PM
No, Orton turns the ball over too much. Our defense would have been put in a lot of bad positions. We probably would have won 1 or 2 games.

We may have used long sentences.

brncs_fan
11-29-2011, 08:55 PM
In before sloth.

Dr. Broncenstein
11-29-2011, 08:57 PM
http://item.slide.com/r/1/00a2/i/NwNA5u774z_njNOCP4nItbbeSyqt3y66/

Tombstone RJ
11-29-2011, 08:58 PM
All the Von Miller love got me thinking about something.

What if we had kept Orton as our QB? Might we still have gone on this run?

Here's what got me thinking about it. It's so long ago most people have probably forgotten, but early in the year, Von Miller was being removed on certain plays because he was missing assignments, etc.

Now don't misunderstand; the guy is awesome. And he's a freaking rookie. Mistakes are going to happen. But my question is, did this team need time to gel? Particularly on the defensive end, did this team need time to find itself that normally would have taken place during the offseason had we not had the lockout?

Look, I was as critical of Orton as anybody. And I love me some Timmy Tebow. (pause) But had our defense been like this from day 1, what would the story of this season be? Could it have been this good from day 1 with an offseason? Could this defense have kept Orton's job?

Kyle Orton screwed Kyle Orton.

Archer81
11-29-2011, 09:01 PM
We dont win any division road game with Kyle Orton. We lose in Miami. Maybe win the NYJ game. With Orton, we averaged 101 ypg rushing the football. With Tebow, that's doubled. Because teams are wary of what Tebow can do with the ball, more passing opportunities are opening up down field. Because of the zone read, we are getting runs inside regularly. Then you have this raw QB who has 10 td passes and 1 interception. Defenses love a guy who does not put them in lousy situations, which Orton often does.

Orton is not a bad player, he was just not a fit here.

:Broncos:

Bronco Boy
11-29-2011, 09:01 PM
Who cares. He's gone and we're all better for it.

ChrisToker
11-29-2011, 09:07 PM
No our success is all TEBOW all the time. I mean its obvious after reading crap post after crap post that Tebow is the reason Willis is running harder and that our D is stepping up. If we do lose a game it is Fox to blame and that Anti-Christ Elway

Dr. Broncenstein
11-29-2011, 09:08 PM
We dont win any division road game with Kyle Orton. We lose in Miami. Maybe win the NYJ game. With Orton, we averaged 101 ypg rushing the football. With Tebow, that's doubled. Because teams are wary of what Tebow can do with the ball, more passing opportunities are opening up down field. Because of the zone read, we are getting runs inside regularly. Then you have this raw QB who has 10 td passes and 1 interception. Defenses love a guy who does not put them in lousy situations, which Orton often does.

Orton is not a bad player, he was just not a fit here.

:Broncos:

All true except the last line. Orton isn't bad, he's god awful. Maybe that's too harsh. He's god awful when things aren't perfect, which is about 98% of the time on this team.

ChrisToker
11-29-2011, 09:10 PM
Don't get it twisted ORTON still sucks.

Kid A
11-29-2011, 09:15 PM
I think this is a fair argument. No doubt with an offseason the defense would have gotten in step much quicker in some areas. The qualifiers I would put on that:

1) Considering the youth of Von, new scheme, injuries to Champ, DJ and HAM, etc. it still seems likely this defense would have taken a month or so to gel no matter what. Even with more preseason practice, it isn't until live bullets you could expect the D to make any real leap. And injuries obviously wouldn't have healed any faster.

2) Tebow has opened up the rushing game considerably, which has been the key to the offense ball control and field position game that has aided the defense.

ward63
11-29-2011, 09:16 PM
Maybe it did b/c it would have given us more time to **** his @$$ to Miami and start with Tebow from day one. Who I still believe the lockout hurt the most.

Turd_Ferguson
11-29-2011, 09:16 PM
I absolutely hated orton. That said when he was in Chicago he played a lot the year they went to the superbowl(EDIT They didnt make the superbowl this year just the playoffs...) He was considered a "game manager". If our defense was this good, we may have won with him.... I would have hated watching him every single moment he was on the field... At least Tebow at his worst is still a superior athlete that is exciting to watch, as opposed to a stone footed statue with ZERO talent. Watching Orton fail to stand was much more painful to watch than Tebow's questionable passing.

strafen
11-29-2011, 09:25 PM
I absolutely hated orton. That said when he was in Chicago he played a lot the year they went to the superbowl... He was considered a "game manager". If our defense was this good, we may have won with him.... I would have hated watching him every single moment he was on the field... At least Tebow at his worst is still a superior athlete that is exciting to watch, as opposed to a stone footed statue with ZERO talent. Watching Orton fail to stand was much more painful to watch than Tebow's questionable passing.

This!

Agamemnon
11-29-2011, 09:29 PM
What if we had kept Orton as our QB? Might we still have gone on this run?


Seriously?

MagicHef
11-29-2011, 09:34 PM
I absolutely hated orton. That said when he was in Chicago he played a lot the year they went to the superbowl... He was considered a "game manager". If our defense was this good, we may have won with him.... I would have hated watching him every single moment he was on the field... At least Tebow at his worst is still a superior athlete that is exciting to watch, as opposed to a stone footed statue with ZERO talent. Watching Orton fail to stand was much more painful to watch than Tebow's questionable passing.

Um.

Orton threw zero passes for zero yards the year that the Bears went to the Super Bowl. When I think of someone that "played a lot," that's not what I think of.

ChrisToker
11-29-2011, 09:36 PM
Um.

Orton threw zero passes for zero yards the year that the Bears went to the Super Bowl. When I think of someone that "played a lot," that's not what I think of.

Better check your stats bud

BroncoSojia
11-29-2011, 09:37 PM
Kyle Orton screwed Kyle Orton.


http://images.tvrage.com/people/11/31632.jpg

MagicHef
11-29-2011, 09:39 PM
Better check your stats bud

Well, maybe nfl.com has it wrong then.

epicSocialism4tw
11-29-2011, 09:40 PM
Orton would Orton us to death with 3-and-outs and critical turnovers. The defense was on the field way too much with too few breaks in between.

The offense that we have now burns up the clock even if it goes 3-and-out. This offense also picks up early down first downs. and keeps the clock moving pretty regularly.

The defense has been allowed to improve because the new offense allows for them to both rest and prepare for the next time on the field.

ChrisToker
11-29-2011, 09:41 PM
In the 2005 NFL season, Orton was rushed into the Bears starting lineup as a rookie after a preseason injury to starter Rex Grossman, and the poor play of back-up Chad Hutchinson.Orton started 15 games of the season, however was replaced by Grossman after halftime during the Bears' Week 15 victory against the Atlanta Falcons

MagicHef
11-29-2011, 09:44 PM
In the 2005 NFL season, Orton was rushed into the Bears starting lineup as a rookie after a preseason injury to starter Rex Grossman, and the poor play of back-up Chad Hutchinson.Orton started 15 games of the season, however was replaced by Grossman after halftime during the Bears' Week 15 victory against the Atlanta Falcons

Cool. The Bears played in the Super Bowl on February 4th, 2007. Therefore, the 2005 season has absolutely nothing to do with this conversation.

Turd_Ferguson
11-29-2011, 09:47 PM
Um.

Orton threw zero passes for zero yards the year that the Bears went to the Super Bowl. When I think of someone that "played a lot," that's not what I think of.

Yep I was wrong. He played 15 games in 2005 for the bears. They lost in the playoffs to Carolina. In 2006 he was replaced by Brian Griese and never played a down. Sorry.

ChrisToker
11-29-2011, 09:49 PM
Touche. Thought it was his rookie year they went to SB.

Taco John
11-29-2011, 09:50 PM
I would say execution in the fourth quarter on both sides of the ball negates this thought. We haven't had this level of 4th quarter execution since the John Elway era. Orton's 4th quarter pale in comparison.

Turd_Ferguson
11-29-2011, 09:50 PM
Touche. Thought it was his rookie year they went to SB.

As did I!

Vine
11-29-2011, 10:14 PM
Any negative effects the lack of a real offseason had on Orton affected his opponents too, so it all evens out, so no, the lockout had no effect on Kyle, whatsoever.

Inkana7
11-29-2011, 10:18 PM
Any negative effects the lack of a real offseason had on Orton affected his opponents too, so it all evens out, so no, the lockout had no effect on Kyle, whatsoever.

You're discounting the fact that we had a coaching change over the offseason.

Agamemnon
11-29-2011, 10:22 PM
You're discounting the fact that we had a coaching change over the offseason.

And some in this thread are forgetting that Orton sucks.

By the way the OC didn't change, so really that's a weak excuse.

Br0nc0Buster
11-29-2011, 10:23 PM
Orton was playing quite poor before he was benched, and what was the worst of it all is we were in games and he would piss them away

Kyle was turning it over way too much and not making up for it by putting points on the board

Vine
11-29-2011, 10:27 PM
You're discounting the fact that we had a coaching change over the offseason.

Some of the players may or may not have worked out during on their own during the offseason, but I find it ludicrous of the notion that the Fox and company didn't do any work during the offseason.

Inkana7
11-29-2011, 10:29 PM
And some in this thread are forgetting that Orton sucks.

By the way the OC didn't change, so really that's a weak excuse.

Oh ok, I was wondering why the offense this year, both with Tebow and without, looked exactly like the 2010 broncos offense. ::) Clearly it's because nothing was changed.

Agamemnon
11-29-2011, 10:35 PM
Oh ok, I was wondering why the offense this year, both with Tebow and without, looked exactly like the 2010 broncos offense. ::) Clearly it's because nothing was changed.

I didn't say nothing changed. But the terminology of the offense certainly didn't. Orton didn't have to learn a whole new playbook in the offseason. In fact, I doubt he really had to learn many new things at all. Just because they started calling more power formations than before doesn't mean that stuff wasn't already in the playbook. It was.

SonOfLe-loLang
11-29-2011, 10:41 PM
It still baffles me how people think the defense suddenly getting good and the implementation of our current offense are two completely independent events.

Archer81
11-30-2011, 12:35 AM
Dont get me wrong. Orton is not going to lead a team anywhere other than to herpes town in Vegas. He did not fit. He can't remotely mimic what Tebow can do, so he is worthless as a backup. So due to his obvious limitations, he has not, he is not, nor will ever be a fit here.

May his crabs be friendly and his neckbeard peanut free.

:Broncos:

Agamemnon
11-30-2011, 01:14 AM
It still baffles me how people think the defense suddenly getting good and the implementation of our current offense are two completely independent events.

Or that turnover free football the offense is playing (for the most part). Yeah that has nothing to do with it. Hilarious!

Doggcow
11-30-2011, 02:42 AM
He's projecting.

canadianbroncosfan
11-30-2011, 02:59 AM
Who cares? Good riddance to this garbage and we'll see you January 1st when we're reminded why we're glad we got rid of him.

Jay3
11-30-2011, 02:59 AM
Separate and apart from the Tebow situation, Kyle Orton has a serious problem -- he can be stopped when needed. When defense adjust during a game, and say "Let's try X to stop what Orton is doing," Orton did not have the all around athleticism or gamesmanship to counter-react and overcome it. It seemed that every time there was a turn in the tide, it was the tide turning against Orton. Never Orton's will turning the tide, or Orton dictating.

So I don't think there would have been the comeback wins, the 4th quarter wins. Maybe more wins than 1, but I think the Broncos would be at about 3-8.

With Tebow, you feel like there's always an in game answer to what the defense does ( or even an in-play answer).

robbieopperude
11-30-2011, 03:08 AM
Orton would Orton us to death with 3-and-outs and critical turnovers. The defense was on the field way too much with too few breaks in between.

The offense that we have now burns up the clock even if it goes 3-and-out. This offense also picks up early down first downs. and keeps the clock moving pretty regularly.

The defense has been allowed to improve because the new offense allows for them to both rest and prepare for the next time on the field.

This :thumbsup:

robbieopperude
11-30-2011, 03:11 AM
Orton was playing quite poor before he was benched, and what was the worst of it all is we were in games and he would piss them away

Kyle was turning it over way too much and not making up for it by putting points on the board

An interesting what if is if Tebow would have had a red zone package from the beginning of the season would Orton still be playing if we beat the Raiders and Titans instead of losing those two winnable games.

Bronco Rob
11-30-2011, 04:12 AM
http://item.slide.com/r/1/00a2/i/NwNA5u774z_njNOCP4nItbbeSyqt3y66/







:thumbsup:

Broncoman13
11-30-2011, 04:46 AM
All the Von Miller love got me thinking about something.

What if we had kept Orton as our QB? Might we still have gone on this run?

Here's what got me thinking about it. It's so long ago most people have probably forgotten, but early in the year, Von Miller was being removed on certain plays because he was missing assignments, etc.

Now don't misunderstand; the guy is awesome. And he's a freaking rookie. Mistakes are going to happen. But my question is, did this team need time to gel? Particularly on the defensive end, did this team need time to find itself that normally would have taken place during the offseason had we not had the lockout?

Look, I was as critical of Orton as anybody. And I love me some Timmy Tebow. (pause) But had our defense been like this from day 1, what would the story of this season be? Could it have been this good from day 1 with an offseason? Could this defense have kept Orton's job?

Orton screwed himself when he balked at the three year $27m extension the Dolphins were offering causing the Phins to pull the plug on the trade altogether. Now, he is looking at a the likelihood of being a #2 QB or a stop gap while a team develops a rookie QB. Two years $8 is what he will likely get now... He screwed himself!

And no, he didn't just need time for this defense to gel. He turned the ball over way too much and couldn't make plays in crunch time. Had Tebow started from the beginning we would have won at least two of those first 5 games and would be sitting at 7-4 and that is being conservative.

alkemical
11-30-2011, 05:35 AM
I would say execution in the fourth quarter on both sides of the ball negates this thought. We haven't had this level of 4th quarter execution since the John Elway era. Orton's 4th quarter pale in comparison.

Clutch is everything.

maher_tyler
11-30-2011, 05:46 AM
All the Von Miller love got me thinking about something.

What if we had kept Orton as our QB? Might we still have gone on this run?

Here's what got me thinking about it. It's so long ago most people have probably forgotten, but early in the year, Von Miller was being removed on certain plays because he was missing assignments, etc.

Now don't misunderstand; the guy is awesome. And he's a freaking rookie. Mistakes are going to happen. But my question is, did this team need time to gel? Particularly on the defensive end, did this team need time to find itself that normally would have taken place during the offseason had we not had the lockout?

Look, I was as critical of Orton as anybody. And I love me some Timmy Tebow. (pause) But had our defense been like this from day 1, what would the story of this season be? Could it have been this good from day 1 with an offseason? Could this defense have kept Orton's job?

NO!

2 biggest differences is Orton had 9 turnovers in 4.5 games. Tebow has 2 in 5.5. The other is that Tebow has the athletic ability to drive down the field with the game on the line to win or tie the game. Tebow is clutch, Orton is the complete opposite!

We would be 1-9/2-8 if Orton is still the starter...without a doubt in my mind!

maven
11-30-2011, 05:48 AM
I don't care, he's finally ****ing gone!

3 years of seeing this clown start for the Broncos was way to long. Good riddance.

BroncoBeavis
11-30-2011, 06:06 AM
Don't discount the effect Orton's routine 4th quarter collapses had on the D either. Hard for a D to stay motivated to keep you in a game if they know either way you'll piss it away in the end. Belief in your QB in the clutch would be huge added motivation.

AlphaSeirra
11-30-2011, 06:11 AM
No our success is all TEBOW all the time. I mean its obvious after reading crap post after crap post that Tebow is the reason Willis is running harder and that our D is stepping up. If we do lose a game it is Fox to blame and that Anti-Christ Elway

:thumbs:

Our success is all Fox/Elway all the time. I mean it's obvious that defensive coach Fox has invented and created this offensive turn-around. He meditated with Saint John and they designed a college offense that stupid Tebow or anybody could run and win with. Willis was just warming up with Orton in the game and the defense was always good, they've just been luckier lately. That 1-4 start and 4-14 past two years is all Tebow's fault.....

;) --- :welcome:

lolcopter
11-30-2011, 06:13 AM
No way. Orton sucks and he screwed himself

jhns
11-30-2011, 06:14 AM
The defense was good early. Orton blew it on multiple attempts to close out games. He turned it over far too much. Just look what happened the one game we turned it over a bunch with Tebow. A defense this good has to have a ball control offense. This is why the teams that throw all over the place, rarely have top defenses.

The defense suddenly got good at halftime in the Charger game. They suddenly got much better in the last three games of last season. Orton was holding this team back. Stop being such a clown and look at the results.

TonyR
11-30-2011, 06:49 AM
It still baffles me how people think the defense suddenly getting good and the implementation of our current offense are two completely independent events.

Contrary to popular belief the Tebow offense didn't magically make the defense better. People think this is about time of possession and ball control but the numbers don't really back that up. Time of possession hasn't changed much from Orton to Tebow. First downs and scoring are both actually down from Orton to Tebow. The larger and much more important difference, other than the defense getting better due to more experience playing together in a new system with a new coach, and better health, is turnovers. Ignoring the first San Diego game in which both QB's played we averaged 2.75 turnovers per game with Orton and 0.83 per game with Tebow.

jhns
11-30-2011, 06:52 AM
Contrary to popular belief the Tebow offense didn't magically make the defense better. People think this is about time of possession and ball control but the numbers don't really back that up. Time of possession hasn't changed much from Orton to Tebow. First downs and scoring are both actually down from Orton to Tebow. The larger and much more important difference, other than the defense getting better due to more experience playing together in a new system with a new coach, and better health, is turnovers. Ignoring the first San Diego game in which both QB's played we averaged 2.75 turnovers per game with Orton and 0.83 per game with Tebow.

Scoring is not down. The defense majically started playing better at halftime against the Chargers. They suddenly got better for the last three games last season...

You try way too hard to discredit Tebow. It is really sad.

lostknight
11-30-2011, 06:52 AM
To consistently win with a passing oriented offense requires perfect execution, and having the best QB on the field no matter what. Reference that two quarterbacks had more then 400 yards passing this week, and still were blown out. Orton may be good, but we can all agree that he is not Drew Brees, Tom Brady or Aaron Rodgers. Even worse, he doesn't have the tight ends that Tom Brady has, or the wide receivers that Rodgers does, or the running backs that Drew has.

Ironically enough, what we ended up doing might have been the only way what we have done happens. Do you think the Broncos would have given Tebow a chance to play the option if he was in there day 1? Do you think unless they saw how consistently this team sucked, that they really would have tried something as dramatic?

In reality, I don't even think we are executing the Option well right now. We have the best that ever was in college running it, but the supporting cast is not quite here yet. Plus Tebow has unquestionably regressed with his mechanics from last year.

Yet despite these things, we have something that the NFL has no answer for.

Is the defense playing at a insanely high caliber right now. Absolutely. Would they have improved with Kyle at the helm? Hell, even as Bailey said - I admit it - I play harder for this kid. Probably yes. But would it have made a difference? A bit, but without the insane difference of Tebow possessing the ball, versus Orton passing it, I don't think we would be as spectacular.

Plus, you also have Tebow with one interception in seven games. People are still missing this. Jake Plummer had a season with 18 td's to 7 interceptions, and it was his best ever.

lostknight
11-30-2011, 06:55 AM
Contrary to popular belief the Tebow offense didn't magically make the defense better. People think this is about time of possession and ball control but the numbers don't really back that up. Time of possession hasn't changed much from Orton to Tebow. First downs and scoring are both actually down from Orton to Tebow. The larger and much more important difference, other than the defense getting better due to more experience playing together in a new system with a new coach, and better health, is turnovers. Ignoring the first San Diego game in which both QB's played we averaged 2.75 turnovers per game with Orton and 0.83 per game with Tebow.

Really, because the fan was pointing out that on average there was 7 minutes (almost four drives difference) a game difference between Tebow and Orton yesterday.

That seems a lot to me ;-)

jhns
11-30-2011, 06:56 AM
Scoring is not down. The defense majically started playing better at halftime against the Chargers. They suddenly got better for the last three games last season...

You try way too hard to discredit Tebow. It is really sad.

And just to back up my point about the hater Tonyr, here is an excellent post by pricejj:

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showpost.php?p=3396304&postcount=88

2KBack
11-30-2011, 07:17 AM
Kyle Orton did not play well this year. The reasons are arguable though, and I find it humorous that no one thinks we could have gone on a run like this with him. This current streak directly mimicks the 6-0 start from 2009. Road wins in Oakland and San Diego, 4th quarter and OT comebacks against NE and Dallas. There was even the magic moment against the Bengals.

During that time Denver played mistake free offense and dominant defense, sound familiar?

What give me hope is that this year it is being done late in the season, and it is being done in physical manner. Getting bullied by Baltimore is what ended our success in 2009. I don't fear getting bullied anymore.

That said. Kyle Orton is tailor made for a conservative offense, defensive focused team. I don't know what the hell they were trying to do with him this season, maybe showcase him as a gunslinger, which he is not. I'm pretty confident that if we had gone equally as conservative we would have been much better to start the year.

That time has passed, and we are rolling with the running man here, and that cool. I think it is worth considering though. I know that despite our winning many here aren't happy with the playcalling....it was the same guy at the beginning of the season, and he could have been equally as bad calling plays for Orton.

TonyR
11-30-2011, 07:19 AM
Scoring is not down.

Wrong. 20.25 ppg under Orton, 18.83 ppg under Tebow. And Tebow's number includes points scored by the D and ST.

And I'm not undermining Tebow at all. Turnovers are hugely important and Tebow has done a much better job protecting the football. I shouldn't even have to explain that.

TonyR
11-30-2011, 07:21 AM
Really, because the fan was pointing out that on average there was 7 minutes (almost four drives difference) a game difference between Tebow and Orton yesterday.


That may include TOP in the two overtime games which skews the numbers. A more accurate indicator would the the ratio of total minutes. I think it probably has gone up under Tebow but no way 7 minutes a game exclusive of overtime minutes.

TonyR
11-30-2011, 07:26 AM
And just to back up my point about the hater Tonyr, here is an excellent post by pricejj:

If those numbers are accurate, which I'll assume they are, the difference must be the San Diego game (which I excluded) and the non-offensive TD's, in which case I would be incorrect about scoring going down. But it has remained relatively constant.

And why am I a "hater"? Again, Tebow has done a better job protecting the football, been better in the 4th quarter, and has won. All to his credit. How is this hating? You completely lack objectivity and rationality on this topic.

Steve Prefontaine
11-30-2011, 07:34 AM
I would say execution in the fourth quarter on both sides of the ball negates this thought. We haven't had this level of 4th quarter execution since the John Elway era. Orton's 4th quarter pale in comparison.

Great point. During the SD game, when they were down 10-0, my friend said, ďUh oh, this isnít good.Ē I told him as long as Denver can hang in there and be down by 7 or less going into the 4th, I like our chances.

With Orton, I didnít feel comfortable in the 4th, even when Denver had the lead.

Miss I.
11-30-2011, 07:34 AM
If "The Lockout" is the name of some skank then the answer is yes she screwed him indirectly, while some other skank named "Miami" screwed the Broncos directly. All of this probably involved Jack Daniels in someway. ;D

Garcia Bronco
11-30-2011, 07:39 AM
Kyle Orton is an asshole. I am glad he's gone from our community

jhns
11-30-2011, 07:39 AM
If those numbers are accurate, which I'll assume they are, the difference must be the San Diego game (which I excluded) and the non-offensive TD's, in which case I would be incorrect about scoring going down. But it has remained relatively constant.

And why am I a "hater"? Again, Tebow has done a better job protecting the football, been better in the 4th quarter, and has won. All to his credit. How is this hating? You completely lack objectivity and rationality on this topic.

You do nothing but try to discredit Tebows role on this team, as evidenced by you completely wrong arguments.

I know the facts, and use them. You say I lack objectivity. 5-3 vs 4-14. Say whatever you want, Tebow isn't going anywhere. You will just have to keep making up excuses as to why he isn't really doing 1000 times better than the last QB.

TonyR
11-30-2011, 07:45 AM
You do nothing but try to discredit Tebows role on this team, as evidenced by you completely wrong arguments.

LOL Where/how did I discredit Tebow? Other than correctly pointing out that the defensive improvement isn't all about Tebow? You're an idiot. You ignore where I credit him (turnovers, 4th quarter, winning) but jump all over where I indirectly "discredit" him (defensive improvement not all about him). You choose to see what you want to see. Textbook confirmation bias.

Mile High Mojoe
11-30-2011, 07:49 AM
Totally irrelevant, heís gone and should have been at the start of the season. Another training camp wasnít going to magically turn into a better QB.

jhns
11-30-2011, 07:50 AM
LOL Where/how did I discredit Tebow? Other than correctly pointing out that the defensive improvement isn't all about Tebow? You're an idiot. You ignore where I credit him (turnovers, 4th quarter, winning) but jump all over where I indirectly "discredit" him (defensive improvement not all about him). You choose to see what you want to see. Textbook confirmation bias.

You throw in a little blurb about improved turnovers in between lies and horrible analysis. This offense is really helping the defense. The are seeing fewer possessions, they have more time on the bench, and they are working with a FAR better average starting field position. You can claim whatever you want, the defense suddenly plays far better every time we swutch to Tebow. Again, just look at the SD game. It suddenly got better at halftime. Look at the one game were the offense was turning the ball over with Tebow. All of the facts say you are an idiot.

The defense has been good. Orton was screwing them over. This offense allows them to thrive. The offense is scoring more even though they are making sure there are fewer possessions in the game...

Shotgun Willie
11-30-2011, 08:00 AM
Great point. During the SD game, when they were down 10-0, my friend said, ďUh oh, this isnít good.Ē I told him as long as Denver can hang in there and be down by 7 or less going into the 4th, I like our chances.

Agreed. It's a nice feeling.

With Orton, I didnít feel comfortable in the 4th, even when Denver had the lead.

Honest question: did Orton ever lose a game we were winning in the 4th? I honestly can't remember any cases of this. I think we can all agree that he was, with maybe 4 or 5 exceptions, terrible playing from behind in the 4th. But I don't remember him doing anything stupid to blow any late leads.

Shotgun Willie
11-30-2011, 08:03 AM
This offense is really helping the defense. The are seeing fewer possessions, they have more time on the bench, and they are working with a FAR better average starting field position.

I'd disagree with the first two, but agree with the third. Though I'd attribute that better starting field position at least as much to Colquitt and Prater than to anything the offense is doing.

jhns
11-30-2011, 08:06 AM
I'd disagree with the first two, but agree with the third. Though I'd attribute that better starting field position at least as much to Colquitt and Prater than to anything the offense is doing.

You can disagree with facts all you want. It won't change them.

Dedhed
11-30-2011, 08:07 AM
Contrary to popular belief the Tebow offense didn't magically make the defense better.

Points allowed per game with Orton= 29.8
Points allowed per game with Tebow=19.4

And it's 15 ppg since tailoring the offense to Tebow.

Spin it all you want, but the defensive improvement does magically coincide with Tebow starting.

Dedhed
11-30-2011, 08:11 AM
I'd disagree with the first two, but agree with the third. Though I'd attribute that better starting field position at least as much to Colquitt and Prater than to anything the offense is doing.

The starting field position is completely due to not turning the ball over. you're clearly daft.

Mountain Bronco
11-30-2011, 08:19 AM
Orton is what he is. A average QB (not as bad as people make him out to be) that will not win you a bunch of games. He doesn't inspire confidence.

Also, the D needed real game experience and the rest they get from Denver's longer drives also helps.

No is the basic answer.

Turd_Ferguson
11-30-2011, 08:30 AM
Totally irrelevant, heís gone and should have been at the start of the season. Another training camp wasnít going to magically turn into a better QB.

He was absolutely terrible, the only thing that would have helped him is if super bowls were determined by who looked good in mini camps, and practice.

Shotgun Willie
11-30-2011, 08:34 AM
You can disagree with facts all you want. It won't change them.

What facts? The fact that our defense is literally on the field for 65-66 plays on average this season under Tebow. Literally less than one play per game different than they were out there under Orton?

Shotgun Willie
11-30-2011, 08:36 AM
The starting field position is completely due to not turning the ball over. you're clearly daft.

So then why is everyone here praising our punter and our kickoff guy? They have NOTHING to do with pinning opponents deep? Interesting.

Not turning the ball over clearly helps. I'm not disputing that. But to say that our superb special teams play of late plays no roll in that is idiotic at best.

WolfpackGuy
11-30-2011, 08:41 AM
Boreton kept turning it over and chitting the bed as usual in crunch time, and his losing percentage spoke for itself.

Hell no would this team be currently fighting for a playoff spot with Boreton at the helm.

jhns
11-30-2011, 08:44 AM
So then why is everyone here praising our punter and our kickoff guy? They have NOTHING to do with pinning opponents deep? Interesting.

Not turning the ball over clearly helps. I'm not disputing that. But to say that our superb special teams play of late plays no roll in that is idiotic at best.

So the punter suddenly got good when Tebow came in? Same as the defense? What a bunch of crazy cooincidences... God must be real and really does care about Tebows football career!

strafen
11-30-2011, 08:50 AM
So then why is everyone here praising our punter and our kickoff guy? They have NOTHING to do with pinning opponents deep? Interesting.

Not turning the ball over clearly helps. I'm not disputing that. But to say that our superb special teams play of late plays no roll in that is idiotic at best.They do, Colquitt has been doing it since college.
The kick-off tee was moved up this year.
I think the point made was that by not turning the ball over, you don't put yourself in a situation where you may cough the ball up deep in your own territory...

Pick Six
11-30-2011, 09:16 AM
I don't know about Orton, but the lack of OTA's hampered Tebow's development...

TheElusiveKyleOrton
11-30-2011, 09:18 AM
I don't think the lockout had anything to do with how bad Orton was this year. The defense may have made a difference in our record had it stepped up earlier in the year, but it wouldn't be a significant difference.

Orton screwed Orton.

TonyR
11-30-2011, 09:20 AM
Spin it all you want, but the defensive improvement does magically coincide with Tebow starting.

It does coincide. It just doesn't 100% correlate. There are several other factors that for some reason you choose to ignore. And once again, for the benefit of people like you who are hyper-sensitive to anything that is remotely not Tebow positive, this isn't a knock on Tebow. The team has been better since he's taken over and he gets some of the credit, and I'd rather have him as QB than Orton every day and twice on Sunday. But that doesn't change the fact that the defensive improvement isn't all about him no matter how much you want to inexplicably exclusively credit him for it.

TonyR
11-30-2011, 09:21 AM
I don't think the lockout had anything to do with how bad Orton was this year. The defense may have made a difference in our record had it stepped up earlier in the year, but it wouldn't be a significant difference.

Orton screwed Orton.

You're not allowed to have that opinion! You're a "hater"! Take that back!!!

jhns
11-30-2011, 09:24 AM
You're not allowed to have that opinion! You're a "hater"! Take that back!!!

As if that is anything like the retarded **** you argue. You even continually back out from your arguments when everyone points out how dumb you are.

"I'm not a hater! I just lie and make **** up to take credit away from him!"

Inkana7
11-30-2011, 09:27 AM
I didn't say nothing changed. But the terminology of the offense certainly didn't. Orton didn't have to learn a whole new playbook in the offseason. In fact, I doubt he really had to learn many new things at all. Just because they started calling more power formations than before doesn't mean that stuff wasn't already in the playbook. It was.

So then why is it an argument that the lockout hampered Tebow if he was also with the team last year?

TonyR
11-30-2011, 09:28 AM
As if that is anything like the retarded **** you argue. You even continually back out from your arguments when everyone points out how dumb you are.

"I'm not a hater! I just lie and make **** up to take credit away from him!"

http://gifsoup.com/imager.php?id=668242&t=o (http://gifsoup.com/view/668242/what-you-talkin-bout-willis.html) GIFSoup (http://gifsoup.com/)

jhns
11-30-2011, 09:31 AM
So then why is it an argument that the lockout hampered Tebow if he was also with the team last year?

I would say the offseason is more important to a young player with only three starts that it is for a veteran with 40 starts. That is just a theory though.

Where it really hurt is Orton could have been traded before the draft. Tebow getting first team reps would have been huge. Orton has a ton more work in with the starters. They would have tailored the offense for him before the season as well.

Rohirrim
11-30-2011, 09:32 AM
All the Von Miller love got me thinking about something.

What if we had kept Orton as our QB? Might we still have gone on this run?

Here's what got me thinking about it. It's so long ago most people have probably forgotten, but early in the year, Von Miller was being removed on certain plays because he was missing assignments, etc.

Now don't misunderstand; the guy is awesome. And he's a freaking rookie. Mistakes are going to happen. But my question is, did this team need time to gel? Particularly on the defensive end, did this team need time to find itself that normally would have taken place during the offseason had we not had the lockout?

Look, I was as critical of Orton as anybody. And I love me some Timmy Tebow. (pause) But had our defense been like this from day 1, what would the story of this season be? Could it have been this good from day 1 with an offseason? Could this defense have kept Orton's job?

Hard to know. Would Marciano have beaten Ali? ??? Tebow brought a lot of inspiration to the game that Orton did not, to say the least. Football is a game of emotion. Crank up some emotion and you get some wins. A big part of it is also STs. The Broncos are consistently winning the field position battle. That's a big deal. Also, Tebow does not turn the ball over. Also a big part of it. The defense has definitely come together. It seems as if those first five games made up for the lack of training camp. But I still can't see Orton driving this kind of resurgence. Like I always said, he's a career backup.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
11-30-2011, 09:38 AM
Hard to know. Would Marciano have beaten Ali? ??? Tebow brought a lot of inspiration to the game that Orton did not, to say the least. Football is a game of emotion. Crank up some emotion and you get some wins. A big part of it is also STs. The Broncos are consistently winning the field position battle. That's a big deal. Also, Tebow does not turn the ball over. Also a big part of it. The defense has definitely come together. It seems as if those first five games made up for the lack of training camp. But I still can't see Orton driving this kind of resurgence. Like I always said, he's a career backup.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/AVaYL_71CGk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Rocky Marciano?! Rocky Marciano?!

mnfan
12-01-2011, 06:22 AM
Probably posted somewhere else, but:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8_buda5vWo

orange 4 life
12-01-2011, 08:19 AM
All the Von Miller love got me thinking about something.

What if we had kept Orton as our QB? Might we still have gone on this run?

Here's what got me thinking about it. It's so long ago most people have probably forgotten, but early in the year, Von Miller was being removed on certain plays because he was missing assignments, etc.

Now don't misunderstand; the guy is awesome. And he's a freaking rookie. Mistakes are going to happen. But my question is, did this team need time to gel? Particularly on the defensive end, did this team need time to find itself that normally would have taken place during the offseason had we not had the lockout?

Look, I was as critical of Orton as anybody. And I love me some Timmy Tebow. (pause) But had our defense been like this from day 1, what would the story of this season be? Could it have been this good from day 1 with an offseason? Could this defense have kept Orton's job?

Honestly? Absolutely

The defense wasn't healthy with Orton under center AND they weren't playing near the level they have since Tebow stepped in.
In addition since Tebow stepped in we've scored 4th quarter TD's due to a punt return, a pick six, and an onside kick recovery. Three games we got 7 points in the 4th quarter that you wouldn't normally get and without those plays we don't win those games even WITH Tebow's 4th quarter heroics.

That said does it matter?
Orton is gone, Tebow is the starter, and we're winning games.
Can we win games this way consistently? Of course not, though if Tebow can throw the ball the way he did last game (5-10 on passes over 10 yds and only a couple poorly thrown balls not to mention the 2 drops and the obvious P.I. non call) then maybe we CAN win long term with Tebow under center.
The kid is SUCH a dangerous (and intelligent!) runner that even if a team DOES take away the option they'll have to commit at least 8 guys each play to do so.
That of course means single coverage on receivers and that means he doesn't NEED to be an above average passer. He simply needs to be consistent enough to deliver the ball to a place where the receiver has a chance to make the catch.

The pass to Rosario against the Jets was the PERFECT example. By NFL standards it was a poorly thrown pass. Rosario was WIDE OPEN and could've had some YAC if the ball was on target.
That said he was so wide open in part BECAUSE of Tebow and while it was definitely poorly thrown (again by traditional NFL standards) it was close enough to at least give Rosario a chance and of course we all saw what happened next. Rosario makes a great catch, we move the chains, and then Tebow goes Tebow and runs it in from 20 yards for the go ahead score.

I guess what I'm saying is that your question is valid but at the same time irrelevant as Orton isn't on our sideline anymore.
When this season is finished we'll all (including of course the front office) evaluate what we saw from Tebow and the team will have to make some decisions.
Go forward with Tebow and (similar to Elway in '84) make no effort to bring in competition for him?
Draft a QB (1st or 2nd round) and let them compete for the job?
Look to trade Tebow and start over with a draft pick and/or vet?

All options will be discussed ad nauseam and depending on how the season ends that's probably the smart thing to do.

But for right now we're winning games and regardless of how much credit Tebow deserves for those wins it's exciting as heck and undoubtedly Tebow does have that rare ability to elevate his play when it matters most and that's a characteristic that can't be taught.
The only thing I'm sure of right now is that it's gonna be very interesting to see how this all plays out going forward.

orange 4 life
12-01-2011, 08:38 AM
You do nothing but try to discredit Tebows role on this team, as evidenced by you completely wrong arguments.

I know the facts, and use them. You say I lack objectivity. 5-3 vs 4-14. Say whatever you want, Tebow isn't going anywhere. You will just have to keep making up excuses as to why he isn't really doing 1000 times better than the last QB.

This is the garbage that gets to me.
How did he make any excuses or attempt to discredit Tebow?

In fact he made a point to give him credit for SEVERAL different things and simply stated a fact that the points scored is the same if not down a bit.
How is that being a "hater" again?
Seems to me it's just being reasonable and rational.

jhns
12-01-2011, 08:41 AM
This is the garbage that gets to me.
How did he make any excuses or attempt to discredit Tebow?

In fact he made a point to give him credit for SEVERAL different things and simply stated a fact that the points scored is the same if not down a bit.
How is that being a "hater" again?
Seems to me it's just being reasonable and rational.

Says a troll that hates Tebow.

orange 4 life
12-01-2011, 08:50 AM
Says a troll that hates Tebow.

Huh? Are you out of your mind?

Now I hate Tebow?
Wow. Tell me more about how I feel!! :rofl:

Actually I love the kid. He seems like a really grounded young man that I'd love to have in the community long term and as mentioned above he has that special and extremely rare ability to elevate his play when it matters most.
I'm not 100% sold on him being our franchise QB yet due to his issues as a passer but no one is pulling for him more than I am.
Not quite sure how that makes me a "troll" or someone that "hates Tebow."

It's people like you that keep me from posting here regularly anymore.

orange 4 life
12-01-2011, 08:53 AM
P.S.- Go ahead with the expected "then keep not posting" response if you must though it would be just another hateful (interesting that you call people "haters" while making hateful comments) and useless comment.
You think Tebow is a god among men and any other opinion is unacceptable to you. I get it.

Dedhed
12-01-2011, 08:54 AM
The team has been better since he's taken over

The team has been better BECAUSE he's taken over, not simply "since" he took over. Big difference.

jhns
12-01-2011, 08:57 AM
Huh? Are you out of your mind?

Now I hate Tebow?
Wow. Tell me more about how I feel!! :rofl:

Actually I love the kid. He seems like a really grounded young man that I'd love to have in the community long term and as mentioned above he has that special and extremely rare ability to elevate his play when it matters most.
I'm not 100% sold on him being our franchise QB yet due to his issues as a passer but no one is pulling for him more than I am.
Not quite sure how that makes me a "troll" or someone that "hates Tebow."

It's people like you that keep me from posting here regularly anymore.

You are defending someone that only tries taking credit away from tebow. He has been doing this for months. He just now started throwing in a few "positive" comments in between all of his hate. You are doing the same thing. Every time Tebow steps on the field, the entire team looks better. The offense is even outproducing the Orton led offense as they pretty much only run the ball. From this, we hear you trying to explain that Tebows, and this systems, impact is really not the difference. The defense and special teams just suddenly got good at halftime in the Chargers game. The only time they sucked again, was a game where the offense turned it over and didn't run as well/much. That bad performance by the defense came in between great play, while Tebow was in.

It is all magic! Or, you don't know wtf you are talking about. Or, you are a hater. You can chose any of the these three options.

orange 4 life
12-01-2011, 08:57 AM
The team has been better BECAUSE he's taken over, not simply "since" he took over. Big difference.

Agreed.

Not sure how much is health, scheme, coaching, etc. and how much is just Tebow but it's certainly not pure coincidence.

In other words I don't think Tebow is the ONLY reason the team has been better but he's undoubtedly a part of it. His excitement and uncanny ability to elevate his play at key moments is infectious to both fans and players.

TonyR
12-01-2011, 09:02 AM
But for right now we're winning games and regardless of how much credit Tebow deserves for those wins it's exciting as heck and undoubtedly Tebow does have that rare ability to elevate his play when it matters most and that's a characteristic that can't be taught.
The only thing I'm sure of right now is that it's gonna be very interesting to see how this all plays out going forward.

Good post. Hard to see how anyone could disagree.

TonyR
12-01-2011, 09:07 AM
Huh? Are you out of your mind?

Now I hate Tebow?
Wow. Tell me more about how I feel!! :rofl:

He's a clown. For some reason Tebow has made him completely irrational. Impossible to have an honest discussion with him.

orange 4 life
12-01-2011, 09:08 AM
You are defending someone that only tries taking credit away from tebow. He has been doing this for months. He just now started throwing in a few "positive" comments in between all of his hate. You are doing the same thing. Every time Tebow steps on the field, the entire team looks better. The offense is even outproducing the Orton led offense as they pretty much only run the ball. From this, we hear you trying to explain that Tebows, and this systems, impact is really not the difference. The defense and special teams just suddenly got good at halftime in the Chargers game. The only time they sucked again, was a game where the offense turned it over and didn't run as well/much. That bad performance by the defense came in between great play, while Tebow was in.

It is all magic!

Wow.
Don't know about him (I've just read his comments on THIS thread as opposed to months prior) but I haven't come CLOSE to "throwing in a few 'positive' comments in between all (my) hate."

Is everything this black and white with you? Good Lord.
Just because I don't think he walks on water doesn't mean I hate him.
As afore mentioned I love the kid and couldn't BE more excited about what's happening. Noting that he needs to be more consistent in the passing game isn't hate. Not by a long shot brother.

jhns
12-01-2011, 09:10 AM
He's a clown. For some reason Tebow has made him completely irrational. Impossible to have an honest discussion with him.

You do realize he just said the difference was Tebow taking over, right? You know, the very thing you continually argue against?

TonyR
12-01-2011, 09:10 AM
The team has been better BECAUSE he's taken over, not simply "since" he took over. Big difference.

True to a point, but again you're ignoring multiple other factors particularly with respect to the defense. Using the word "because" implies that the credit all goes to Tebow. A rational person realizes that this isn't the case. An irrational person takes any statement that Tebow shouldn't get all the credit as a criticism of Tebow even when the statement includes an admission that Tebow is a large positive factor. You can either choose to be like jhns and be one of those latter people, or you can be reasonable and admit the obvious. Your choice. You can lead a horse to water...

jhns
12-01-2011, 09:12 AM
Wow.
Don't know about him (I've just read his comments on THIS thread as opposed to months prior) but I haven't come CLOSE to "throwing in a few 'positive' comments in between all (my) hate."

Is everything this black and white with you? Good Lord.
Just because I don't think he walks on water doesn't mean I hate him.
As afore mentioned I love the kid and couldn't BE more excited about what's happening. Noting that he needs to be more consistent in the passing game isn't hate. Not by a long shot brother.

It is that black and white when you troll my posts. You don't know his history, but you tell me what his history is? This, as you claim my post is the problem with the board. You don't even see the problem with this retarded stance you took.

TonyR
12-01-2011, 09:12 AM
You do realize he just said the difference was Tebow taking over, right? You know, the very thing you continually argue against?

If that's the case then why did you call him a troll that hates Tebow? You're a bit confused. Take a break.

TonyR
12-01-2011, 09:14 AM
You don't know his history, but you tell me what his history is?

:rofl: Says the guy who assumes to know my "history" and how I feel and where I stand, but it completely wrong on every count. What an epic dope.

jhns
12-01-2011, 09:16 AM
True to a point, but again you're ignoring multiple other factors particularly with respect to the defense. Using the word "because" implies that the credit all goes to Tebow. A rational person realizes that this isn't the case. An irrational person takes any statement that Tebow shouldn't get all the credit as a criticism of Tebow even when the statement includes an admission that Tebow is a large positive factor. You can either choose to be like jhns and be one of those latter people, or you can be reasonable and admit the obvious. Your choice. You can lead a horse to water...

This team would not be winning without Tebow. This defense would be half as good with Orton still in.

The defemse and specoal teams were keeping us in games before. Tebow is the reason they now excell. The defensive game plan, that the offense runs, allows the defense to look good.

I have continually said the entire team is playing great and that Tebow is the difference. You continualy argue against this and then make claims that I am saying Tebow plays defense.

Your brain doesn't work so well.

BroncoBeavis
12-01-2011, 09:17 AM
That said. Kyle Orton is tailor made for a conservative offense, defensive focused team. I don't know what the hell they were trying to do with him this season, maybe showcase him as a gunslinger, which he is not. I'm pretty confident that if we had gone equally as conservative we would have been much better to start the year.

There's some revisionism going on here. Fox wanted to run the ball. He loves to run the ball. He tried to run the ball. Problem was, with Orton, running the ball didn't work. So they HAD to throw. And Kyle fell apart, because he's not that guy.

Maybe if you had a top-tier conventional rushing attack, like Baltimore, you could make a guy like Orton work out OK. Win Superbowls? No. But we didn't talk like that back when he was QB. That would've been silly, as it is today.

Tebow's biggest impact has been making our running game viable (which in turn has helped protect the football and increase our TOP)

There's no prayer we could do what we're doing with Orton. None.

jhns
12-01-2011, 09:17 AM
:rofl: Says the guy who assumes to know my "history" and how I feel and where I stand, but it completely wrong on every count. What an epic dope.

Yeah, you haven't been arguing with me about this for multiple weeks or anything...

So you pretty much just admitted to trolling.

orange 4 life
12-01-2011, 09:18 AM
It is that black and white when you troll my posts. You don't know his history, but you tell me what his history is? This, as you claim my post is the problem with the board. You don't even see the problem with this retarded stance you took.

No, I told you (twice now) that his posts on THIS thread aren't hateful or an attempt to take credit away from Tebow and you went immediately to insults and defense mode.
Maybe you should accept his suggestion and take a break 'cause you're making no sense and as Tony mentioned it seems impossible to have a rational discussion with you. Lord knows I've been trying.

jhns
12-01-2011, 09:18 AM
If that's the case then why did you call him a troll that hates Tebow? You're a bit confused. Take a break.

Because it is fun to piss off trolls.

jhns
12-01-2011, 09:21 AM
No, I told you (twice now) that his posts on THIS thread aren't hateful or an attempt to take credit away from Tebow and you went immediately to insults and defense mode.
Maybe you should accept his suggestion and take a break 'cause you're making no sense and as Tony mentioned it seems impossible to have a rational discussion with you. Lord knows I've been trying.

Go read your post. Go read my post. My post says continually. My post talks about his history. You jumped on it because you didn't understand it. You now claim I am the problem, just as you did before. What a sad individual. Maybe you should stay out of stuff when you don't know what is going on. It would help you not look like such a moron.

orange 4 life
12-01-2011, 09:30 AM
Because it is fun to piss off trolls.

So you get off by deliberately trying to insult and "piss off" a fellow fan on a message board?
And then call those people hateful trolls? Do you realize how ridiculous that is?

And FYI that kind of thing doesn't piss me off. Just makes me think you must be a pretty miserable person.

So everyone that doesn't think Tebow walks on water is a "troll" and you think it is "fun" to try and piss those people off? Sound about right?

And you REALLY don't see how that kind of attitude brings this place down?
I came in to try and talk Broncos with fellow fans and I end up engaged with an angry (not to mention irrational) person like yourself. Exhibit A.
Oy Vey.
As you were. :oyvey:

orange 4 life
12-01-2011, 09:33 AM
Go read your post. Go read my post. My post says continually. My post talks about his history. You jumped on it because you didn't understand it. You now claim I am the problem, just as you did before. What a sad individual. Maybe you should stay out of stuff when you don't know what is going on. It would help you not look like such a moron.

Now I'm a moron too?

You're something else man. You have yet to make anything resembling a point but I'm a moron. Okay brother. Run with it.
I'm out. Peace.

jhns
12-01-2011, 09:33 AM
So you get off by deliberately trying to insult and "piss off" a fellow fan on a message board?
And then call those people hateful trolls? Do you realize how ridiculous that is?

And FYI that kind of thing doesn't piss me off. Just makes me think you must be a pretty miserable person.

So everyone that doesn't think Tebow walks on water is a "troll" and you think it is "fun" to try and piss those people off? Sound about right?

And you REALLY don't see how that kind of attitude brings this place down?
I came in to try and talk Broncos with fellow fans and I end up engaged with an angry (not to mention irrational) person like yourself. Exhibit A.
Oy Vey.
As you were. :oyvey:

You are really too stupid to continue talking too. You are the one jumping on my posts when you admittedly don't even know that they are wrong. You call me the problem after that... I laugh at you and do exactly what you are claiming, and now you get all defensive. Your stance on Tebow has nothing to do with what I am saying to you. It is your obvious trolling that forces me to act this way.

Piss you off or cause you to post less... All the same to me.

TonyR
12-01-2011, 09:41 AM
I have continually said the entire team is playing great...

And you're continually wrong. The offense has struggled for most of the past several games (with the notable exception of the Oakland game). This is an easily supported fact. Since you take any such statement as an affront to Tebow, and since it would require you to be reasonable and admit you're wrong, you can't/won't agree. jhns, clearly the offense has come through in the clutch and won the last few games, and they deserve praise and credit for this. But they've also struggled for most of these same games and only have the opportunity to win because the defense and ST have kept them in the game. Is it so hard to admit reality? To see what is in front of one's nose needs a constant struggle, apparently.

jhns
12-01-2011, 09:44 AM
And you're continually wrong. The offense has struggled for most of the past several games (with the notable exception of the Oakland game). This is an easily supported fact. Since you take any such statement as an affront to Tebow, and since it would require you to be reasonable and admit you're wrong, you can't/won't agree. jhns, clearly the offense has come through in the clutch and won the last few games, and they deserve praise and credit for this. But they've also struggled for most of these same games and only have the opportunity to win because the defense and ST have kept them in the game. Is it so hard to admit reality? To see what is in front of one's nose needs a constant struggle, apparently.

LOL

You clearly don't even understand the basics of football.

The results agree with everything I say.

Inkana7
12-01-2011, 09:50 AM
LOL

You clearly don't even understand the basics of football.

The results agree with everything I say.

Except for things like points scored.

TonyR
12-01-2011, 09:52 AM
So everyone that doesn't think Tebow walks on water is a "troll" and you think it is "fun" to try and piss those people off? Sound about right?

Yup, that's his MO. When he's clearly lost an argument the spin, obfuscation, and name calling are ramped up. He ignores your points because he can't counter them and then changes the argument, brings up different points, misrespresents what you say, and calls you a troll and a hater. I'm not sure whether he's trying to fool himself or everybody else. He probably succeeds on the former but largely fails on the latter.

bendog
12-01-2011, 09:53 AM
Yup, that's his MO. When he's clearly lost an argument the spin, obfuscation, and name calling are ramped up. He ignores your points because he can't counter them and then changes the argument, brings up different points, misrespresents what you say, and calls you a troll and a hater. I'm not sure whether he's trying to fool himself or everybody else. He probably succeeds on the former but largely fails on the latter.

personally, I think he feeds off the attention.

TonyR
12-01-2011, 09:54 AM
Except for things like points scored.

LOL Notice how he didn't refute a single point I made? Not one! And then to ice his rancid cake of futility he actually thinks he's right and that I'm the troll! Delusional and quite lacking in self awareness. It's like arguing with a mental patient or a small child.

TonyR
12-01-2011, 09:55 AM
personally, I think he feeds off the attention.

Probably some of that going on, too. Lonely in mom's basement. That and he lives in Omaha. Probably not much else going on.

jhns
12-01-2011, 09:56 AM
Except for things like points scored.

A young QB can only do so much himself. Like improving points and yards even though the team gave away the top receiver. Or scorin more with a run oriented offense. Or scoring every time when it matters most. Or not turning the ball over as they have the best rushing attack in the NFL.

You say bad, I say good. 4-14 to 6-3 agrees with me.

Rohirrim
12-01-2011, 09:57 AM
jhns is like a little pomeranian. They'll yap and yap and yap through the screen door at the mailman, but if that door ever opens, they're heading under the couch asap.

jhns
12-01-2011, 09:59 AM
Notice how all the Tebow haters get so worked up when you point out the facts?

It makes me laugh.

jhns
12-01-2011, 10:00 AM
jhns is like a little pomeranian. They'll yap and yap and yap through the screen door at the mailman, but if that door ever opens, they're heading under the couch asap.

Come to Omaha and see how your theory goes.

Rohirrim
12-01-2011, 10:02 AM
Notice how all the Tebow haters get so worked up when you point out the facts?

It makes me laugh.

Notice how pathetic a Chargers fan is when his team goes into the toilet and the only solution his juvenile mind can come up with is to go annoy posters on a Broncos' board?

TonyR
12-01-2011, 10:03 AM
A young QB can only do so much himself. Like improving points and yards even though the team gave away the top receiver. Or scorin more with a run oriented offense. Or scoring every time when it matters most. Or not turning the ball over as they have the best rushing attack in the NFL.

LOL Everyone please take note of how he's now clearly admitting that the offense needs to do better and score more, which totally contradicts his previous arguments in this very thread.

Rohirrim
12-01-2011, 10:03 AM
Come to Omaha and see how your theory goes.

http://www.pixiq.com/sites/default/files/inet_tough_guy.jpg

Hilarious!

jhns
12-01-2011, 10:06 AM
http://www.pixiq.com/sites/default/files/inet_tough_guy.jpg

Hilarious!

Wait, you are the one runing the tough guy smack as you post this.

That is just comically stupid.

Rohirrim
12-01-2011, 10:07 AM
Wait, you are the one runing the tough guy smack as you post this.

That is just comically stupid.

See? The door opens and you run under the couch. :wave:

jhns
12-01-2011, 10:08 AM
See? The door opens and you run under the couch. :wave:

Poor guy.

Rohirrim
12-01-2011, 10:14 AM
Poor guy.

Trust me, child. If you were standing in front of me the only thing you would say is, "I apologize, sir." ;D

2KBack
12-01-2011, 10:14 AM
There's some revisionism going on here. Fox wanted to run the ball. He loves to run the ball. He tried to run the ball. Problem was, with Orton, running the ball didn't work. So they HAD to throw. And Kyle fell apart, because he's not that guy.

Maybe if you had a top-tier conventional rushing attack, like Baltimore, you could make a guy like Orton work out OK. Win Superbowls? No. But we didn't talk like that back when he was QB. That would've been silly, as it is today.

Tebow's biggest impact has been making our running game viable (which in turn has helped protect the football and increase our TOP)

There's no prayer we could do what we're doing with Orton. None.

How do you explain that we already did it for 6 straight games in 2009?

bendog
12-01-2011, 10:27 AM
How do you explain that we already did it for 6 straight games in 2009?

I never did understand that one. It was "I know this coach is an egomanical idiot and Orton is a journeyman qb and we just lost one of the best pure passers in the nfl and we have knowshow moreno....."

But, imo, Tebow deserves the credit for being able to execute run option plays out of really any set. What McCoy is doing is making the defense defend two extra running lanes, one on each side of the traditional running lane on the tackles' outside sholders. Tebow's still not really able to win with his arm, but Orton didn't give us that option gig. Though, a passing pocket qb can spread a defense even with a noodle arm, Joe Montana, just running a WC scheme. But there its using the pass to accomplish what a run can do.

orange 4 life
12-01-2011, 10:38 AM
Notice how pathetic a Chargers fan is when his team goes into the toilet and the only solution his juvenile mind can come up with is to go annoy posters on a Broncos' board?

Is he a Chargers fan? That would explain a little bit.

Beyond that I'm done. As several people have now mentioned (add me to that list) it's impossible to have a conversation with him, he makes no valid points, and immediately resorts to name calling and being the internet tough guy.

I'm sure "sorry sir" would indeed be the response in person and I'm also guessing he relishes the attention as also mentioned. Personally I'm done giving it to him. I don't know how you guys have the patience to keep going at it with him but more power to ya!!

jhns
12-01-2011, 10:56 AM
Trust me, child. If you were standing in front of me the only thing you would say is, "I apologize, sir." ;D

I would feel that sorry for you?

BroncoBeavis
12-01-2011, 10:56 AM
How do you explain that we already did it for 6 straight games in 2009?

So you're going to compare this year's team to our team two years ago and ask "Why couldn't we do it again today?"

Look at the 5 leading receivers from that year. 4 are gone. The only one left is Butterfingers McGhee.

You can't just step over the beginning of this year and all of last to hold 2009 up as a shining example of Orton's possibilities... In spite of the fact that this team looks nothing like the team we had 2 years ago.

I'm not saying Orton couldn't do better in a different system with better receivers. He would, but so would Tebow. What I said was that there's no chance Orton could've done what Tebow has done with THIS team, which is make the running game work. There's no arguing that.

jhns
12-01-2011, 10:56 AM
Is he a Chargers fan? That would explain a little bit.

Beyond that I'm done. As several people have now mentioned (add me to that list) it's impossible to have a conversation with him, he makes no valid points, and immediately resorts to name calling and being the internet tough guy.

I'm sure "sorry sir" would indeed be the response in person and I'm also guessing he relishes the attention as also mentioned. Personally I'm done giving it to him. I don't know how you guys have the patience to keep going at it with him but more power to ya!!

Cry more troll.

orange 4 life
12-01-2011, 12:06 PM
This message is hidden because jhns is on your ignore list.

That's a first for me but I'd rather enjoy discussion with rational people than read a bunch of senseless name calling from an obviously miserable person.

jhns
12-01-2011, 12:07 PM
This message is hidden because jhns is on your ignore list.

That's a first for me but I'd rather enjoy discussion with rational people than read a bunch of senseless name calling from an obviously miserable person.

No one cares troll. Now you are just being a drama queen.

orange 4 life
12-01-2011, 12:18 PM
I never did understand that one. It was "I know this coach is an egomanical idiot and Orton is a journeyman qb and we just lost one of the best pure passers in the nfl and we have knowshow moreno....."

But, imo, Tebow deserves the credit for being able to execute run option plays out of really any set. What McCoy is doing is making the defense defend two extra running lanes, one on each side of the traditional running lane on the tackles' outside sholders. Tebow's still not really able to win with his arm, but Orton didn't give us that option gig. Though, a passing pocket qb can spread a defense even with a noodle arm, Joe Montana, just running a WC scheme. But there its using the pass to accomplish what a run can do.

That was my point on another thread. Tebow can't win with his arm but he doesn't need to at this point and (to some degree anyway) he likely will NEVER need to win with his arm.

In other words his running skills are so special that even if defenses DO figure out how to stop it consistently it will require them to commit 8 in the box every down.
And of course with 8 in the box Tebow will have single coverage and open receivers so all he has to do is be marginally effective with his arm and that should be good enough.

As I said before I think the pass to Rosario at the end of the Jets game was a PERFECT example. By any standards it wasn't a GOOD pass (Rosario would've had some YAC if it had been right on the money) but it was good enough to allow the receiver to make the catch.
If he can simply make those throws consistently (and he's been improving each week) then IMHO that will be more than enough for him to be our franchise QB. Regardless it's been extremely exciting to watch and his uncanny ability to elevate his play AND that of the rest of the team when it matters most has been nothing short of inspiring.

bendog
12-01-2011, 12:36 PM
That was my point on another thread. Tebow can't win with his arm but he doesn't need to at this point and (to some degree anyway) he likely will NEVER need to win with his arm.

In other words his running skills are so special that even if defenses DO figure out how to stop it consistently it will require them to commit 8 in the box every down.
And of course with 8 in the box Tebow will have single coverage and open receivers so all he has to do is be marginally effective with his arm and that should be good enough.

As I said before I think the pass to Rosario at the end of the Jets game was a PERFECT example. By any standards it wasn't a GOOD pass (Rosario would've had some YAC if it had been right on the money) but it was good enough to allow the receiver to make the catch.
If he can simply make those throws consistently (and he's been improving each week) then IMHO that will be more than enough for him to be our franchise QB. Regardless it's been extremely exciting to watch and his uncanny ability to elevate his play AND that of the rest of the team when it matters most has been nothing short of inspiring.

Look, I'm pretty skeptical that any qb can take the hits on 320 rushing attempts and another 250-300 passing attempts. Tebow is getting better throwing the ball, and assuming he dedicates his offseaon to football which is paying him a lot of money, he should get a lot better. And, McCoy really only needs to run maybe 5 of the read options for force a team to respect it and not let the OSLB over the LT to get into pursuit.

And they can still roll the kid out on that play that Plummer used to run, where the oline zoneblocked right, Jake and the FB went left, sharpe lined up on the right and did a crossing pattern 10 yards deep, the right side wr did a crossing route 25 yds deep, and the wr on the left ran a deep post or fly. Even if the OSLB stays home, the FB can block him. Tebow can run or pass, and if he runs he can go out of bounds.

So, Tebow gives McCoy a lot of ways to force the defense to commit 9 and play single coverage. For Tebow to win a championship, I think he's got to hit 50% from the pocket. He may never be much of a third and more than 7 guy, but .... Red Miller didn't let Morton take many shots at those when he was on his side of the 50, and I think Fox prefers to play a similar game of limit turnovers and make the other team go 80 yds to score.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
12-01-2011, 12:56 PM
Look, I'm pretty skeptical that any qb can take the hits on 320 rushing attempts and another 250-300 passing attempts. Tebow is getting better throwing the ball, and assuming he dedicates his offseaon to football which is paying him a lot of money, he should get a lot better. And, McCoy really only needs to run maybe 5 of the read options for force a team to respect it and not let the OSLB over the LT to get into pursuit.

And they can still roll the kid out on that play that Plummer used to run, where the oline zoneblocked right, Jake and the FB went left, sharpe lined up on the right and did a crossing pattern 10 yards deep, the right side wr did a crossing route 25 yds deep, and the wr on the left ran a deep post or fly. Even if the OSLB stays home, the FB can block him. Tebow can run or pass, and if he runs he can go out of bounds.

So, Tebow gives McCoy a lot of ways to force the defense to commit 9 and play single coverage. For Tebow to win a championship, I think he's got to hit 50% from the pocket. He may never be much of a third and more than 7 guy, but .... Red Miller didn't let Morton take many shots at those when he was on his side of the 50, and I think Fox prefers to play a similar game of limit turnovers and make the other team go 80 yds to score.

Are you guys having a real, live football discussion? How out of place for the Mane.

I'm so used to "NO YOUR AND IDIOT!!" that this sort of took me by surprise. Rep.

jhns
12-01-2011, 12:58 PM
Are you guys having a real, live football discussion? How out of place for the Mane.

I'm so used to "NO YOUR AND IDIOT!!" that this sort of took me by surprise. Rep.

LOL

As you come with a post that has nothing to do with football and is crying about others...

Typical moose.

BroncoBeavis
12-01-2011, 01:25 PM
And they can still roll the kid out on that play that Plummer used to run, where the oline zoneblocked right, Jake and the FB went left, sharpe lined up on the right and did a crossing pattern 10 yards deep, the right side wr did a crossing route 25 yds deep, and the wr on the left ran a deep post or fly. Even if the OSLB stays home, the FB can block him. Tebow can run or pass, and if he runs he can go out of bounds

Where are the rollouts anyway? I always thought that was kinda Mobile QB 101. But we never seem to go there.

jhns
12-01-2011, 01:34 PM
Where are the rollouts anyway? I always thought that was kinda Mobile QB 101. But we never seem to go there.

Tebow has been getting better with footwork, except when on the move. He doesn't get his feet back under him and hasn't been accurate when outside of the pocket. I would say that is the reason.

It may just not be something that McCoy and Fox like to do.

bendog
12-01-2011, 02:11 PM
Where are the rollouts anyway? I always thought that was kinda Mobile QB 101. But we never seem to go there.

Remember, I started that post with something like, I'm very leery of the notion any qb can take hits on 320 running plays and another 250-300 passes and be effective in the playoffs, let alone not on IR.

What they are doing is spreading the defense horizontally with the zone read/run Tebow off tackle behind with up to 8 blockers on the LOS. McGehee is making some power runs, and both Ball and Knowshow ran zone block scheme plays. McGehee may have too, I don't really recall, but he's more a power guy at this stage of his career. In a nutshell, when they line up 8 blockers shoulder to shoulder, the defense has 9 gaps to run defend. That mean's there's one one one on the outside, and a single safety.

Similarly, they can use 3 wr's, one in a slot, a tight end on the side opposite the slot, and one running back. Then they can run the read option thing. The only way a defense can stop that is to lock a defender into the gap between the slot reciver and the tackle. That means a 4-3 defense must have players lined up over all three recievers, a player over the tight end, four down linemen, plus the 9th guy in that gap. A 3-4 defense has to either pull one of the ISLB's and put him/or a substituion in the slot, which leaves them undermanned for inside runs (remember the complaints by posters here that McCoy runs inside too much, esp against the Jests) or again bring up a safety and only have one back.

And even then, they occassionally have royal coming from the backside off of Tebow's left shoulder for a pure triple option. McCoy is literally throwing the kitchen sink at them run-game wise. It's power/zone/option, and they'll run it out of any formation so long as there's one back, and they'll run tebow out of an empty backfield with 9 on the LOS.

edit: I don't really buy into the Tebow/Fox criticism of the offense doesn't do much until the end. It's smashmouth. There was some criticism of the block on cromartie in the Jests game where tebow ran it. You can't pancake block a defender who is backpeddling for all he's worth to get out of Tebow's way. LOL


But the Plummer roll out thing isn't really a counter to a team having 9 up. Rolling the qb out against a defense that is stacked up on the line and spread across the field plays to the defenses strengths. So do regular screens, though McCoy might could do some wr screens similar to what Fla did. My post about the Plummer role was more about what I hoped to see in the future. It plays to defensive strengths, because defenders are already at the point of attack.

The Plummer role thing pressures the safeties too, but in a different way. If a qb can pass from the pocket with 4 recievers in various routes, then it works like this. Lelie takes the left corner and one saftey deep. Tbone seals the DE. The fullback blocks the linebacker. Either a safety comes up, or Jake's got clear sailing for positive yards and out of bounds.

2KBack
12-01-2011, 02:21 PM
So you're going to compare this year's team to our team two years ago and ask "Why couldn't we do it again today?"

Look at the 5 leading receivers from that year. 4 are gone. The only one left is Butterfingers McGhee.

You can't just step over the beginning of this year and all of last to hold 2009 up as a shining example of Orton's possibilities... In spite of the fact that this team looks nothing like the team we had 2 years ago.

I'm not saying Orton couldn't do better in a different system with better receivers. He would, but so would Tebow. What I said was that there's no chance Orton could've done what Tebow has done with THIS team, which is make the running game work. There's no arguing that.


I wasn't arguing the run game....we had no run game in 2009. All I'm saying is that it proves that he can play safe conservative football. If our defense had gelled earlier and Orton wasn't trying to prove he was Drew Brees (again), or the coaches weren't trying to showcase his passing or something; I am pretty confident he would still be starting and we would have been more successful earlier in the season.

BroncoBeavis
12-01-2011, 02:27 PM
You obviously have no idea what you're talking about :)

Seriously though, it seems like if you're sending 3 wide, there should be some benefit in rolling out every now and again, just to keep the line worrying about contain as much as penetration.

Mostly though I just made that up so I could work "penetration" in somehow. :)

BroncoBeavis
12-01-2011, 02:31 PM
I wasn't arguing the run game....we had no run game in 2009. All I'm saying is that it proves that he can play safe conservative football. If our defense had gelled earlier and Orton wasn't trying to prove he was Drew Brees (again), or the coaches weren't trying to showcase his passing or something; I am pretty confident he would still be starting and we would have been more successful earlier in the season.

Maybe I'm horribly mistaken, but I don't necessarily remember what McD was trying to do at the beginning of '09 as 'safe conservative football' Did it work? It must have, at least for awhile.

But I don't think it bears any resemblance to the type of game we're playing today.

gyldenlove
12-01-2011, 02:32 PM
A really good defense needs good game management to win, Orton is not consistent enough to do that, he doesn't take time off the clock, he turns the ball over and in general gives up too many big plays to the other team. It is not often discussed in football, but if a team can go out and make a big play or get a big stop it energizes and drives the whole team. If the other team takes over the ball in your red zone and you have a good goal line stand and hold them to a field goal it boosts the team, if you go out and force a big 3 and out deep in the other teams end or have a big sack, it helps. Tebow is extremely good at avoiding those situations and even though we still do not convert 3rd down as often as we should, we are very good at keeping the ball rolling and making sure the other team has to fight for everything that can be very draining.

bendog
12-01-2011, 02:40 PM
yeah, I'm sorry it isn't clear. It's not that complicated.


1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 run gaps
o o o o o o o o o o offense

Tebow and no back




1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
o o o o o o o o o 0


Tebow and no back



1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
o o o o o o o o o

Tebow and one back for read option

I give up trying to get the spacing. Maybe someone is computer literate.

BroncoBeavis
12-01-2011, 02:46 PM
yeah, I'm sorry it isn't clear. It's not that complicated.


1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 run gaps
o o o o o o o o o o offense

TT


1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
o o o o o o o o o 0

TT

I was just giving you a hard time.

bendog
12-01-2011, 02:49 PM
I was just giving you a hard time.

I know. What McCoy is doing is very interesting to me. I question it's longterm potential, but Tebow's a work in progress.

BroncoBeavis
12-01-2011, 03:27 PM
Long term, I don't think we HAVE to run Tebow out of it as much as we have been. If he can capably throw out of it, he'd only need to run occasionally to keep the benefit.

It just works better at this point because Tebow needs to get more comfortable with the throws, and we need a WR who routinely wins 1 on 1.

Luckily, until then, Tebow is young and a physically a beast. And I still think QB's take much more punishment when they get laid out in the pocket than if they're tackled running.

orange 4 life
12-01-2011, 08:22 PM
Are you guys having a real, live football discussion? How out of place for the Mane.

I'm so used to "NO YOUR AND IDIOT!!" that this sort of took me by surprise. Rep.

:rofl:
if that's true it's really sad!!
A bunch of us used to all hang out and tailgate in years past and even many of those that couldn't make it out here were still close personally and would care about each other besides just a football take or the smack talking parade of late.

Sure we had trolls back then too but for the most part this was just hands down the best place to talk Broncos and was full of good people. Weird how much it's changed, though I know there are still a ton of great people here. I don't presume to know why but I have noticed that A LOT more people are here now and many (if not MOST) of those people aren't from Colorado. Does that mean anything? Maybe not but it's my theory. There's not NEAR the heat amongst fans here in town. Sure the team and Tebow are THE topic and of course opinions vary but most everyone is nice about it and at the end of the day we're all glad to be winning so most people don't have the desire to argue.

TDmvp
12-01-2011, 08:24 PM
http://img821.imageshack.us/img821/6577/5382886ythreetoedslothc.jpg

orange 4 life
12-01-2011, 08:28 PM
Better way to say it would be that because we're winning everyone around here (here being in town) wants to talk Broncos and Tebow and opinions still vary wildly BUT because the winning streak is so exciting no one gets angry.
It's just a fun and exciting topic. Heck that's the reason I came on the Mane today after so long!!!

Imagine my surprise when virtually every thread deteriorates into pointless name calling within 10 posts. Bummer. Easy to see who the worst offenders are and I used the ignore feature for the first time ever but even besides that extreme there still seems to be a whole lot of tension and derision. Makes no sense to me.

orange 4 life
12-01-2011, 08:50 PM
I know. What McCoy is doing is very interesting to me. I question it's longterm potential, but Tebow's a work in progress.

I've questioned the long term potential as well (and like you I find the offense we're employing fascinating. To the point where I'm actually studying film as opposed to my normal routine of just watching each game twice) but at the end of the day I just can't come up with a scenario where a defense can stop the running game (assuming Tebow is the QB of course) AND use a traditional 2 deep look to avoid putting the corners on an island.

At this point in his career Tebow is only making teams pay for their single coverage a few plays here and there. Then again he is certainly improving (for the first time he completed 5 of 10 passes over 10 yds AND he had two drops and an AWFUL no call with Decker at the goal line) and as I've mentioned before he doesn't need to be an elite passer. Heck he doesn't even need to be above average.

Because teams are having to commit so much time, attention, and BODIES to stop the run Tebow will continue to have single coverage on the outsides with no safety help. Maybe a one deep look on 3rd and long but that's about it.
Knowing that he simply needs to get the ball close enough to where the receiver can make a play because he won't NEED to throw it in that strike zone size target that guys like Manning, Brady, and Brees do consistently. He didn't make those throws the majority of his first few starts this year. He actually HAS started doing that the last couple weeks and if he can do that consistently (I keep referring to the pass to Rosario at the end of the Jets game as the ideal example. Not a good throw but good enough to allow the receiver to make a play) then I actually DO think we can win long term with this style of offense. Sure is fun to watch isn't it?