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View Full Version : You'll Never Win a Championship With an Option Offense


Rohirrim
11-27-2011, 11:23 AM
In today's Tebow interview on NBC, Cowher said something that was not followed up on and just kind of slipped by, but it struck me as a pretty strong statement. He said that no NFL team will win a championship primarily using an option offense. Unfortunately, nobody followed up on this and asked him to elaborate. So is Cowher right?

Spider
11-27-2011, 11:27 AM
you might .....But you better have a shut down defense ....excellent special teams .......and power running game

Archer81
11-27-2011, 11:27 AM
He's probably right. But if this is what our QB needs to learn defenses and gain a comfort level with being an NFL starter as well as make the team competitive, then so be it.

On the other hand...running the ball, playing solid defense and not turning the ball over is a pretty universal standard for winning, especially late in the year.


:Broncos:

Spider
11-27-2011, 11:28 AM
He's probably right. But if this is what our QB needs to learn defenses and gain a comfort level with being an NFL starter as well as make the team competitive, then so be it.

On the other hand...running the ball, playing solid defense and not turning the ball over is a pretty universal standard for winning, especially late in the year.


:Broncos:

well if you can score other ways like on special teams , turnovers etc .... you can , hell Ravens won with Trent Dilfer ..just saying

KO5K
11-27-2011, 11:28 AM
We run an option only offense?

News to me.

Rohirrim
11-27-2011, 11:29 AM
Here's an interesting wiki write up on the use of the option offense in the NFL:

For the most part, NFL coaches and pundits scoff that the option offense is obsolete for the NFL.[8] The claim is made that NFL defensive players are that much better at stopping the offense than college players. However, this remains to be seen because all NFL offenses run the pro-set family of formations. Some also argue that the high salaries received by NFL quarterbacks, discourage professional teams from using these players as primary ball-carriers (a requirement in option offenses) due to fear of injury.[8][9] The "wildcat" offense, popularized at the college level by former Arkansas offensive coordinators Gus Malzahn and David Lee in the early 2000s and used with the Miami Dolphins when Lee worked for them in the 2008 NFL season owed some of its design to the option offense.[10]

The option has made rare appearances in the NFL. Starting in 2004, Michael Vick, Warrick Dunn and T. J. Duckett ran the option with a degree of success not seen in the NFL before.[10] In a December 2007 game against the New England Patriots, the New York Jets ran the option with quarterback Brad Smith, substituting Smith for starter Chad Pennington.

In the 2008 AFC championship, Ravens QB Joe Flacco ran a QB option tucking the ball for a 5 yard gain and a first down on crucial third down. The Ravens offense was known for mixing up its game plan, and although Flacco is not known for his speed, the deception employed by Baltimore allowed for Flacco to mix up plays successfully despite an AFC championship game loss.

In the 2009 season, the New York Jets ran the option numerous times, with Brad Smith. Each play produced positive yards.[11] The Tennessee Titans also ran the option when Vince Young was re-installed as quarterback.[8] In addition, the option helped Chris Johnson rush for 2000 yards.[10]

In October of 2010 against the Oakland Raiders, David Garrard performed an option run and kept the ball for a 24 yard run to set up a FG.

On October 9 2011, the Carolina Panthers effectively ran the option twice against the New Orleans Saints. The first play was an option pitch from QB Cam Newton to RB DeAngelo Williams for a 67 yard touchdown. The second time, Cam Newton kept the ball and ran for 13 yards.[12]

A month later, the Denver Broncos ran seventeen plays with Tim Tebow as quarterback and Willis McGahee as running back totalling 196 yards on the ground.[13] The option was so effective that the Broncos played it almost exclusively in the fourth quarter of the 38-24 win over the Oakland Raiders and continued using it a week later in a 17-10 win over the Kansas City Chiefs.[14]

frerottenextelway
11-27-2011, 11:29 AM
I just saw an option in the Bills game. It's taking over the world!

Jay3
11-27-2011, 11:30 AM
You can a win a championship with it, but it has to be viewed as your run offense, not your whole offense. It's a way to run the ball effectively, not an entire offense on its own.

Everybody thinks being able to run the ball is a good thing. I don't know why they lose their minds if the run play has any option action in it. It enhances it.

Rohirrim
11-27-2011, 11:34 AM
I think there are two keys: 1. Can your QB survive a season? 2. In the playoffs, you're bound to run into the best defense in the league. Will it work then?

Bronx33
11-27-2011, 11:36 AM
If you know what you do now before this season started would you have thought tebow and the option would be this successful in the NFL ( right now) people can say stuff will not work then when it does they go to the next excuse on the flow chart why it wont work.

Cowher has an opinion and that's exactly what it is its not a written in stone tell all solid gold opinion imo anything can happen and so far it has (i didn't see any of this) nor did the talking heads. I have no clue whats going to happen next ( its kinda fun actually) just imagine a defensive coordinator trying to game plan for the broncos it has to be brain racking to cover all exits only to watch tebow break through a wall and end up behind them over and over.

As for winning championships with the option ( who the hell knows) its all a huge guess.

Bronx33
11-27-2011, 11:36 AM
I just saw an option in the Bills game. It's taking over the world!


Word is the bears are going to use it today with hanie.

Archer81
11-27-2011, 11:38 AM
well if you can score other ways like on special teams , turnovers etc .... you can , hell Ravens won with Trent Dilfer ..just saying


Absolutely agree.


:Broncos:

DarkHorse
11-27-2011, 11:38 AM
I think there are two keys: 1. Can your QB survive a season? 2. In the playoffs, you're bound to run into the best defense in the league. Will it work then?

This - I think we have the only QB in the league that can survive an entire season running the ball. He's basically the same as letting a guy like Hillis throw the ball a few times a game.

Not saying our offense could win a championship, just commenting on the physical size/power/durability of our current starting QB.

frerottenextelway
11-27-2011, 11:42 AM
Word is the bears are going to use it today with hanie.

It picked up a key 3rd down against the Jets. I wonder if the Bills put that play in specifically from something they saw in our game. I'd assume so.

Rohirrim
11-27-2011, 11:43 AM
you might .....But you better have a shut down defense ....excellent special teams .......and power running game

That's true. If you had a really good defense that could keep the score down, and your option could control the clock and give the D long spells of rest, it could create a two pronged power attack that would be hard to fight against. Of course, if you get behind, it could gum up the strategy.

Wes Mantooth
11-27-2011, 11:43 AM
Here's an interesting wiki write up on the use of the option offense in the NFL:

For the most part, NFL coaches and pundits scoff that the option offense is obsolete for the NFL.[8] The claim is made that NFL defensive players are that much better at stopping the offense than college players. However, this remains to be seen because all NFL offenses run the pro-set family of formations. Some also argue that the high salaries received by NFL quarterbacks, discourage professional teams from using these players as primary ball-carriers (a requirement in option offenses) due to fear of injury.[8][9] The "wildcat" offense, popularized at the college level by former Arkansas offensive coordinators Gus Malzahn and David Lee in the early 2000s and used with the Miami Dolphins when Lee worked for them in the 2008 NFL season owed some of its design to the option offense.[10]

The option has made rare appearances in the NFL. Starting in 2004, Michael Vick, Warrick Dunn and T. J. Duckett ran the option with a degree of success not seen in the NFL before.[10] In a December 2007 game against the New England Patriots, the New York Jets ran the option with quarterback Brad Smith, substituting Smith for starter Chad Pennington.

In the 2008 AFC championship, Ravens QB Joe Flacco ran a QB option tucking the ball for a 5 yard gain and a first down on crucial third down. The Ravens offense was known for mixing up its game plan, and although Flacco is not known for his speed, the deception employed by Baltimore allowed for Flacco to mix up plays successfully despite an AFC championship game loss.

In the 2009 season, the New York Jets ran the option numerous times, with Brad Smith. Each play produced positive yards.[11] The Tennessee Titans also ran the option when Vince Young was re-installed as quarterback.[8] In addition, the option helped Chris Johnson rush for 2000 yards.[10]

In October of 2010 against the Oakland Raiders, David Garrard performed an option run and kept the ball for a 24 yard run to set up a FG.

On October 9 2011, the Carolina Panthers effectively ran the option twice against the New Orleans Saints. The first play was an option pitch from QB Cam Newton to RB DeAngelo Williams for a 67 yard touchdown. The second time, Cam Newton kept the ball and ran for 13 yards.[12]

A month later, the Denver Broncos ran seventeen plays with Tim Tebow as quarterback and Willis McGahee as running back totalling 196 yards on the ground.[13] The option was so effective that the Broncos played it almost exclusively in the fourth quarter of the 38-24 win over the Oakland Raiders and continued using it a week later in a 17-10 win over the Kansas City Chiefs.[14]


The broncs ran it a couple of times with Jay Cutler too.

UberBroncoMan
11-27-2011, 11:44 AM
I agree running a primarily option offense isn't good.

I do however think having some of it can win championships because it's just another thing the defense has to prepare for since it forces assignment football over gaps. Can get confusing.

That said, if teams all over the NFL are going to copy us then eventually it will just become part of the game and as such, lose some of its effectiveness.

Jay3
11-27-2011, 11:44 AM
I think there are two keys: 1. Can your QB survive a season? 2. In the playoffs, you're bound to run into the best defense in the league. Will it work then?

And also

3. Can your QB enhance it by running over some opposing DB's and taking them out of the game?

Rohirrim
11-27-2011, 11:46 AM
Given the culture of prima donna wide receivers in the league, you'd probably have a hard time hanging on to your good receivers. They would primarily be down field blockers. How are you going to get any stats like that?

Bronx33
11-27-2011, 11:46 AM
It picked up a key 3rd down against the Jets. I wonder if the Bills put that play in specifically from something they saw in our game. I'd assume so.


Watching the bills right now.

errand
11-27-2011, 11:47 AM
In today's Tebow interview on NBC, Cowher said something that was not followed up on and just kind of slipped by, but it struck me as a pretty strong statement. He said that no NFL team will win a championship primarily using an option offense. Unfortunately, nobody followed up on this and asked him to elaborate. So is Cowher right?

My question to Bill is -

when has anyone ever tried to do it?

Just because it's never been done doesn't mean it can't Happen...we'll never know until somebody attempts it.

consensus theories suck...at one point in time everyone thought the world was flat...but Magellan and his crew proved otherwise...nobody though man would ever fly....but the Wright Bros. gave it try...etc. etc

and i'm sure before the advent of the forward pass someone in the NFL won running the option....maybe the Pottsville Maroons?

schaaf
11-27-2011, 11:49 AM
We run the option 20% of the time... When the **** did that become an option only offense???

errand
11-27-2011, 11:52 AM
and another note...perhaps nobody has attempted it for several reasons...QB's not being physical beasts like Tebow is. Defenses are built more now to stop the pass and rush passer than stop a big 240 lb. QB that runs over people.

db56
11-27-2011, 11:55 AM
I wanted to choose maybe, but It wasnt an option so I choose option #3.

I dont know how anyone can say with any fact that it cant be done. I've been watching football since 1985 and I dont recall any NFL team trying to use the spread option as their primary offense, but just because its never been done doesnt mean its not possible.

Tebow has answered this question many times and I like his answer, saying that its on more thing the defense has to prepare for and its just part of the offense and not the entire offense.

I just about busted a gut when Dan Marino said that the Broncos are stunting his growth, Tebow is what he is and will never improve as a passer? LOL!! I guess he is incappable of learning....

errand
11-27-2011, 11:56 AM
I just saw an option in the Bills game. It's taking over the world!

the little known Tebow effect strikes again....!Booya!

Jay3
11-27-2011, 11:57 AM
It picked up a key 3rd down against the Jets. I wonder if the Bills put that play in specifically from something they saw in our game. I'd assume so.

Chan Gailey is from the coaching school of thought that believes in it. That's one reason they were interested in Tebow. He's a spread guy in the passing game as well.

Rohirrim
11-27-2011, 12:04 PM
and another note...perhaps nobody has attempted it for several reasons...QB's not being physical beasts like Tebow is. Defenses are built more now to stop the pass and rush passer than stop a big 240 lb. QB that runs over people.

It does make me wonder what an offense with Tebow and Trent Richardson in the backfield could do. ;D

Kaylore
11-27-2011, 12:06 PM
Theoretically, you can win a SB with a below average offense if your defense and special teams are outstanding. Cowher won his in such a fashion with help from the Refs.

DrFate
11-27-2011, 12:09 PM
Theoretically, you can win a SB with a below average offense if your defense and special teams are outstanding. Cowher won his in such a fashion with help from the Refs.

The ultimate irony is Dilfer today said something to the effect of 'you can't win a Super Bowl with an average quarterback'.

Where is Rev's Bert picture?

razorwire77
11-27-2011, 12:26 PM
I discussed this in one of the million other Tebow threads. In my opinion one of the reasons why some pundits attack Tebow with such venom is that the Broncos winning streak represents a threat to the Rodger Goodell modern 21st Century football talking point that they all parrot. How many times do the former player pundits and talking heads talk about the sophistication of the modern NFL offenses? They throw around the term offensive genius with every offensive coordinator that strings together a winning season.

The reality is that despite the size and speed of players and thickness of playbooks, football ain't building a nuclear reactor. It's about physicality and exploiting individual mismatches. You can do that in a 5 WR set, or you can do that running a spread option. There is absolutely no evidence that Cower could provide that running an option could never win a SB, because nobody has ever tried it in the modern NFL. 20 years ago, the pundits would say nobody could win a SB throwing the ball 45 times a game.

I'm not saying omg Tebow win superbol wit option, but a team that can run the football and play physical defense is going to win some games, whether it's 1972 or 2011.

Rohirrim
11-27-2011, 12:34 PM
I discussed this in one of the million other Tebow threads. In my opinion one of the reasons why some pundits attack Tebow with such venom is that the Broncos winning streak represents a threat to the Rodger Goodell modern 21st Century football talking point that they all parrot. How many times do the former player pundits and talking heads talk about the sophistication of the modern NFL offenses? They throw around the term offensive genius with every offensive coordinator that strings together a winning season.

The reality is that despite the size and speed of players and thickness of playbooks, football ain't building a nuclear reactor. It's about physicality and exploiting individual mismatches. You can do that in a 5 WR set, or you can do that running a spread option. There is absolutely no evidence that Cower could provide that running an option could never win a SB, because nobody has ever tried it in the modern NFL. 20 years ago, the pundits would say nobody could win a SB throwing the ball 45 times a game.

I'm not saying omg Tebow win superbol wit option, but a team that can run the football and play physical defense is going to win some games, whether it's 1972 or 2011.

I sometimes wonder if the NFL rule book isn't written purely for the sake of marketing the league: Casual fans like pass plays. They don't want to watch two teams pounding it out in the mud for a three point win. It's like the difference in baseball between the American and National leagues. The American League is all swinging for the fences. The National League is bunt singles, stolen bases and squeeze plays. If you joined the two, you'd probably end up with the American League style taking over. The AFL and Broadway Joe brought the whole "football as circus" thing to the NFL. Maybe Tebow is just too old school for the modern game? ;D

Dr. Broncenstein
11-27-2011, 12:40 PM
"Also, you should design a package of plays to take advantage of Kyle Orton's skill set."

-- Bill Cowher, about a week ago.

errand
11-27-2011, 12:43 PM
The ultimate irony is Dilfer today said something to the effect of 'you can't win a Super Bowl with an average quarterback'.

Where is Rev's Bert picture?


Actually what he did was poke fun at himself, because he's considered a game manager...and when they were discussing QB's one guy said that most QB's from Brady to Manning say they want to first and foremost "manage the game"....

Dilfer's comment was "since when did "game manager" become such a dirty name?"

DrFate
11-27-2011, 12:46 PM
Actually what he did was poke fun at himself, because he's considered a game manager...and when they were discussing QB's one guy said that most QB's from Brady to Manning say they want to first and foremost "manage the game"....

Dilfer's comment was "since when did "game manager" become such a dirty name?"

I'm not sure we are talking about the same quote

Bronx33
11-27-2011, 12:47 PM
"Also, you should design a package of plays to take advantage of Kyle Orton's skill set."

-- Bill Cowher, about a week ago.


Is this skill set shaped like the tight coils my dog leaves in the back yard? ;D

Dr. Broncenstein
11-27-2011, 12:48 PM
You'll never win a championship trying to emulate the Patriots.

errand
11-27-2011, 12:51 PM
I'm not sure we are talking about the same quote

LOL...ok...maybe we aren't...sorry

Turd_Ferguson
11-27-2011, 01:01 PM
you might .....But you better have a shut down defense ....excellent special teams .......and power running game

This may be true, but take a look at the guy saying this. Bill Cowher... How did he coach his teams? Shut down Defense, good special teams, and a power running game, and he's arguing AGAINST being able to win a superbowl playing this way. I think that speaks volumes.

Dr. Broncenstein
11-27-2011, 01:04 PM
Teams are being built around passing and defending the pass. Perfect time to find out if the opposite works.

razorwire77
11-27-2011, 01:05 PM
I sometimes wonder if the NFL rule book isn't written purely for the sake of marketing the league: Casual fans like pass plays. They don't want to watch two teams pounding it out in the mud for a three point win. It's like the difference in baseball between the American and National leagues. The American League is all swinging for the fences. The National League is bunt singles, stolen bases and squeeze plays. If you joined the two, you'd probably end up with the American League style taking over. The AFL and Broadway Joe brought the whole "football as circus" thing to the NFL. Maybe Tebow is just too old school for the modern game? ;D

I guarantee you it's part of it. There's no doubt the rules have been skewed to favor the vertical passing game. Goodell's vision of the NFL is three or four powerhouse teams, and 15-20 7 to 10 win teams. Preferably with each mid-tier team scoring a bunch of points. So enter a kid like Tebow big heart, strong and athletic, a leader, but terribly raw throwing the football. Suddenly, a bad Bronco football team is winning games running a lot option at times even a triple option and playing solid defense.

At it's most basic level, stopping the option is assignment football. And at times, NFL players play poor fundamental assignment football. They're just phenomenal top 1 percent athletes, so at the high school and college levels being fundamentally sound didn't really matter. I'm telling you, I'm still skeptical, but Tebow is certainly pulling back the curtain of the "modern NFL discourse." How far he pulls it back remains to be seen, but it's enough to get some pundits uncomfortable.

Turd_Ferguson
11-27-2011, 01:07 PM
Teams are being built around passing and defending the pass. Perfect time to find out if the opposite works.

Just ask the NY Jets. They have a terrible QB and dont like to throw the ball.

bowtown
11-27-2011, 01:10 PM
Actually what he did was poke fun at himself, because he's considered a game manager...and when they were discussing QB's one guy said that most QB's from Brady to Manning say they want to first and foremost "manage the game"....

Dilfer's comment was "since when did "game manager" become such a dirty name?"

You are talking about something completely different. Dlifer did say today "you can't win a Superbowl with only an average QB and a good defense and special teams." And I lollled all over my living room.

ColoradoDarin
11-27-2011, 01:11 PM
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razorwire77
11-27-2011, 01:14 PM
You'll never win a championship trying to emulate the Patriots.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_WyqxSFRhkxo/StM1p2_s8_I/AAAAAAAABEY/n6AAWelSv8o/s320/josh+mcdaniels.jpg