PDA

View Full Version : Xs and Os - are we using our QB properly?


cmhargrove
11-25-2011, 12:33 PM
As I was thinking about this weekend's game extra the time off for the broncos, I was trying to guess what "wrinkles" our coaches will come up with this week for the offense. So, I took a look down memory lane to watch Tebow's 2009 year when he broke the SEC TD record. I thought it might do some good to see why they were so potent.

I found myself asking. Is Tebow really such a bad passer? Are we using him properly? Why do they call so many quick passes and fake run plays to trick the defense? Why don't we do any of this?

I absolutely love the run game we are establishing, but I kept asking - are we really using this kid properly? It seems that there is a lot of this "read option" offense that is much more passing based. And, if he could make all those throws 2 years ago, why am I supposed to believe he can't do that now?

Anyway, i'm not trying to stir the pot, but I think the video shows that Tebow has a lot more skill (and potential) in a pseudo west-coast read option offense.

<object width="480" height="360"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/OsditoWmwNM?version=3&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/OsditoWmwNM?version=3&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="480" height="360" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true"></embed></object>

Agamemnon
11-25-2011, 12:34 PM
Answer: No they are not using him properly, but at the same time he still needs to do better when asked to pass. He should be passing predominantly out of empty backfield spread formations. But that doesn't seem to happen until late in games we are trailing in.

Armchair Bronco
11-25-2011, 12:50 PM
Bayless says no as well. Tebow likes to throw from empty backfield sets with 4 or 5 receivers. He likes to roll out to his left. And he likes an up tempo pace.

Our coaches don't do any of this until we're already in desperation mode.

Kaylore
11-25-2011, 12:59 PM
We talked about this on the podcast. It's combination of things.

1. Tebow. He reads the defense too slowly and is inaccurate, mostly due to poor mechanics. He didn't get many of the reps in preseason with the starters with the exception of the run plays out of the "Tebow" package that they worked on each practice. The lack of the offseason exacerbated some of Tim's problems.

2. The receivers are young and inexperienced. As such they fail to adjust their routes properly in blitz situations and have shown a propensity to drop the ball.

3. Because of the above, the coaching staff watches the passing fail in practice and elect to not make it a key point of the gameplan in order to prevent turnovers and protect the defense. This means fewer reps and fewer passes. Some of it is dictated by the teams they play too. For example Kansas City has two good corners and the only games they have won were games they got interceptions. Rather than give them that, I'm convinced the staff elected to not run.

4. The wind has been bad in two of the last three games we played. This was a factor in how the passing game looked.

The bottom line is while Tebow does need to throw better, the passing game has several issues beyond just Tim and so the staff isn't featuring that aspect as prominently. They certainly aren't going to try and throw more just so the Teboners' ego's can be sated.

Mile High Mojoe
11-25-2011, 01:00 PM
I wish they'd let him throw more on first down. If they get a running game going and it's working the opportunities are there for him to make some throws on 1st down. Tebow hasn't had many good chances to make throws because he hasn't had the time or protection.

I know many would disagree but I think if he gets a little more time and the O becomes less predictable I see him becoming a better pocket passer. It won't happen overnight but I see it happening.

Mile High Mojoe
11-25-2011, 01:08 PM
We talked about this on the podcast. It's combination of things.

1. Tebow. He reads the defense too slowly and is inaccurate, mostly due to poor mechanics. He didn't get many of the reps in preseason with the starters with the exception of the run plays out of the "Tebow" package that they worked on each practice. The lack of the offseason exacerbated some of Tim's problems.

2. The receivers are young and inexperienced. As such they fail to adjust their routes properly in blitz situations and have shown a propensity to drop the ball.

3. Because of the above, the coaching staff watches the passing fail in practice and elect to not make it a key point of the gameplan in order to prevent turnovers and protect the defense. This means fewer reps and fewer passes. Some of it is dictated by the teams they play too. For example Kansas City has two good corners and the only games they have won were games they got interceptions. Rather than give them that, I'm convinced the staff elected to not run.

4. The wind has been bad in two of the last three games we played. This was a factor in how the passing game looked.

The bottom line is while Tebow does need to throw better, the passing game has several issues beyond just Tim and so the staff isn't featuring that aspect as prominently. They certainly aren't going to try and throw more just so the Teboners' ego's can be sated.

Like the post all the way up until the last sentence when you had to throw the Teboners slam in. I’ve always respected your football opinions in the past but now you're joined this crowd who thinks it's wrong to support our team and our current QB despite all of his imperfections. He has them but damn the team has won 4 out of 5 games. All the spin aside, all the bigotry and hate aside isn't that enough? He didn’t do it by himself but his passion with the help of Miller’s has lead the resurgence wouldn’t you agree?

I saw the wafers comment you made in another thread, no one here least of all me has ever attacked you for what you believed have they?

Spider
11-25-2011, 01:11 PM
We talked about this on the podcast. It's combination of things.

1. Tebow. He reads the defense too slowly and is inaccurate, mostly due to poor mechanics. He didn't get many of the reps in preseason with the starters with the exception of the run plays out of the "Tebow" package that they worked on each practice. The lack of the offseason exacerbated some of Tim's problems.......


The bottom line is while Tebow does need to throw better, the passing game has several issues beyond just Tim and so the staff isn't featuring that aspect as prominently. They certainly aren't going to try and throw more just so the Teboners' ego's can be sated.

blastphomy ...maybe tebow forgive ya man

epicSocialism4tw
11-25-2011, 01:11 PM
The bottom line is while Tebow does need to throw better, the passing game has several issues beyond just Tim and so the staff isn't featuring that aspect as prominently. They certainly aren't going to try and throw more just so the Teboners' ego's can be sated.

Thats a childish and unprofessional opinion.

Spider
11-25-2011, 01:13 PM
May Tebow have mercy on Kaylors soul ........... Kaylor Bro you done ****ed the pooch on this one ............ the teboners will bring the wrath of Tebow upon you .......

DBroncos4life
11-25-2011, 01:13 PM
Like the post all the way up until the last sentence when you had to throw the Teboners slam in. I’ve always respected your football opinions in the past but now you're joined this crowd who thinks it's wrong to support our team and our current QB despite all of his imperfections. He has them but damn the team has won 4 out of 5 games. All the spin aside, all the bigotry and hate aside isn't that enough? He didn’t do it by himself but his passion with the help of Miller’s has lead the resurgence wouldn’t you agree?

I saw the wafers comment you made in another thread, no one here least of all me has even attacked you for what you believed have they?

Oh you mean the same group that bashed posters that wanted Orton to win? Yeah you poor posters. Hilarious!

Spider
11-25-2011, 01:18 PM
Oh you mean the same group that bashed posters that wanted Orton to win? Yeah you poor posters. Hilarious!

Hilarious! rep ....... I know these Teboners have gone off the deep end .....

Mile High Mojoe
11-25-2011, 01:19 PM
Oh you mean the same group that bashed posters that wanted Orton to win? Yeah you poor posters. Hilarious!

I wanted Orton and the Broncos to win ever time but he didn't win, since the 6 game winning streak he's been the worst starting QB in the NFL. He had 2 1/2 years to get his game on and he's been an epic failure. You didn't see me posting on the OM saying I wanted the Broncos to ever lose and roll over for any game, I'm a bigger fan that the ones who were cheering for losses and sucking for Luck BS.

OBF1
11-25-2011, 01:24 PM
Denver's front office/coaching staff is trying its best to ruin Tim Tebow, for what reason, that is beyond me.

Tim's last game in collage went like this:

Completed 31 of 35 passes, Tebow threw for a career-high and Sugar Bowl-record 482 yards and three touchdowns while running for 51 yards another score. Yeah I know, the ignorant and uninformed at the mane only repeat what they hear on the radio, TV or read on the internet, But they failed to watch every game he played in collage.

campocorto
11-25-2011, 01:26 PM
In Tebow's five starts, the Broncos have combined to score 40 points in the first three quarters, but have put up 53 points in the fourth quarter and overtime.

DBroncos4life
11-25-2011, 01:29 PM
I wanted Orton and the Broncos to win ever time but he didn't win, since the6 game winning streak he's been the worst stating QB in the NFL. He had 2 1/2 years to get his game on and he's been an epic failure. You didn't see me posting on the OM saying I wanted the Broncos to ever lose and roll over for any game, I'm a bigger fan that the ones who were cheering for losses and sucking for Luck BS.

I'm not lumping you into that group. I made a blanket statement that fits both sides of this argument.

jhns
11-25-2011, 01:29 PM
No, we aren't. This is what happens when you take a horrible offense, fire the play caller, and keep his assistant to run it all. This is also what happens when you give away your top two receivers without even trying to replace them. The young line doesn't help either. This team would struggle to pass consistently with Manning (although he may be the one guy that could offset McCoy).

Broncbow
11-25-2011, 01:48 PM
Need to pass it more on first downs...

Need to pass it more often, rather than waiting for Tebow to regain the lead when he is finally set free in the passing game, because the ultra conservative scheme of playing not to lose has us losing.

HE COULD USE MORE WEAPONS...

With Orton gone there appears to be no sense of urgency to sign anyone.

A few practice squad players of interest.

Brett Brackett TE, Penn State 6-6 246 ~ Eagle Practice Squad

Matt Kroul, DT 6-3 300 Jet's PC

Kevin Brock, TE Rutgers 6-5 260 Raiders

Jamie Cumbie, DT Clemson 6-7 290 Raiders

Chris DeGeare, G 6-4 335 Wake Forest Vikings
Caleb King RB Georgia Vikings

DuJuan Harris, RB, Troy 4.4 40 ~ Jags Practice Squad
Dre Moore, DT 6-4 307 Jags
Darius Hill, TE Jags

Ian Johnson, RB 5-11 212 Boise State 49ers
Keon Lattimore, RB 5-11 222 Maryland 49ers

Chris Campbell, Eastern Illinois T 6-5 327 Packers

Rob Callaway, DT Saginaw Valley State 6-5 312 Cowbows
Shaun Chapas, RB Georgia 6-2 247 Cowboys

Daniel Hardy, Idaho TE 6-4 249 Saints
Phil Trautwein, Florida T 6-6 310 Saints
Fenuki Tupou, Oregon T 6-5 323 Saints

OrangeSe7en
11-25-2011, 02:00 PM
I think they could do more to get him going in the passing game but it actually seems like they're perfectly content to run the clock and limit the # of possessions in the game while relying on the defense.

I think they could do more short stuff that plays off what they do in the running game.

I also agree though that they shouldnt go exclusively to the spread. They need to keep elements of I and One back formations. The spread needs to be an aspect of the offense, not THE OFFENSE.

Kaylore
11-25-2011, 02:03 PM
Like the post all the way up until the last sentence when you had to throw the Teboners slam in. I’ve always respected your football opinions in the past but now you're joined this crowd who thinks it's wrong to support our team and our current QB despite all of his imperfections. He has them but damn the team has won 4 out of 5 games. All the spin aside, all the bigotry and hate aside isn't that enough? He didn’t do it by himself but his passion with the help of Miller’s has lead the resurgence wouldn’t you agree?

I saw the wafers comment you made in another thread, no one here least of all me has ever attacked you for what you believed have they?

Honestly I have no idea what you're talking about. How does anything I said = not supporting Tebow? I root for Tebow every snap. I look forward to watching him play and was an advocate for him playing instead of Orton, particularly after the Raider game. For you supporting your QB = never saying anything bad about him even if its true. For me, supporting and rooting for a player doesn't mean ignoring their shortcomings.

Here's my point. Tebow fans want him to pass. Not because they think it will help the team win, but because they want to prove he can just so they can keep worshiping him. They want him to do well only so long as it makes Tebow look good. I want Tebow to keep doing the things he's been doing to win games and do not want him to pass just to prove a point. If we need to pass, and if he's progressed to where it makes sense to do so, then I hope he does. If running 50 times and passing 6 = a win, I will applaud that mindset and cheer Tebow as he hands off the ball and runs.

Tebow is raw, and pushing him to do too much, too soon, especially before he and the rest of the offense are in sync could cause more problems than it solves. We're in a playoff race and airing out just to get him reps doesn't make any sense.

Kaylore
11-25-2011, 02:05 PM
Thats a childish and unprofessional opinion.

:~ohyah!: But if I someone slams Elway and I complain, I'm "Emo" right? ::)

vonqkilla
11-25-2011, 02:05 PM
Just left complex, TT signing for everyone.

DrFate
11-25-2011, 02:07 PM
They certainly aren't going to try and throw more just so the Teboners' ego's can be sated.

You make solid post then throw in this kind of comment? You are better than this.

DrFate
11-25-2011, 02:08 PM
Tim's last game in collage went like this:

Completed 31 of 35 passes, Tebow threw for a career-high and Sugar Bowl-record 482 yards and three touchdowns while running for 51 yards another score.

I've used this very game as evidence that the 'he's inaccurate and can never improve' argument doesn't hold water.

DBroncos4life
11-25-2011, 02:09 PM
Honestly I have no idea what you're talking about. How does anything I said = not supporting Tebow. I root for Tebow every snap. I look forward to watching him play and was an advocate for him playing instead of Orton, particularly after the Raider game. For you supporting your QB = never saying anything bad about him even if its true.

Here's my point. Tebow fans want him to pass. Not because they think it will help the team win, but because they want to prove he can just so they can keep worshiping him. They want him to do well only so long as it makes Tebow look good. I want Tebow to keep doing the things he's been doing to win games and do not want him to pass just to prove a point. If we need to pass, and if he's progressed to where it makes sense to do so, then I hope he does. If running 50 times and passing 6 = a win, I will applaud that mindset and cheer Tebow as he hands off the ball and runs.

Tebow is raw, and pushing him to do too much, too soon, especially before he and the rest of the offense are in sync could cause more problems than it solves. We're in a playoff race and airing out just to get him reps doesn't make any sense.

You don't need anyomre proof in what you are saying then this thread. Denver is 4-1 while running this system. What more can the team do to win?

Inkana7
11-25-2011, 02:13 PM
I've used this very game as evidence that the 'he's inaccurate and can never improve' argument doesn't hold water.

Dude. It was Cincinnati.

DrFate
11-25-2011, 02:16 PM
Dude. It was Cincinnati.

That misses the point. The talking heads would have you believe Tebow is simply inaccurate. That means he can't throw it to a guy running in the open. I watched that game and I saw a guy slinging the ball all over the field. When a guy was open, Tebow threw him the ball and the guy caught it.

Whether it was Cincinnati or the '85 Bears - throwing a ball through a tire is throwing the ball through a tire.

OBF1
11-25-2011, 02:19 PM
Honestly I have no idea what you're talking about. How does anything I said = not supporting Tebow? I root for Tebow every snap. I look forward to watching him play and was an advocate for him playing instead of Orton, particularly after the Raider game. For you supporting your QB = never saying anything bad about him even if its true. For me, supporting and rooting for a player doesn't mean ignoring their shortcomings.

Here's my point. Tebow fans want him to pass. Not because they think it will help the team win, but because they want to prove he can just so they can keep worshiping him. They want him to do well only so long as it makes Tebow look good. I want Tebow to keep doing the things he's been doing to win games and do not want him to pass just to prove a point. If we need to pass, and if he's progressed to where it makes sense to do so, then I hope he does. If running 50 times and passing 6 = a win, I will applaud that mindset and cheer Tebow as he hands off the ball and runs.

Tebow is raw, and pushing him to do too much, too soon, especially before he and the rest of the offense are in sync could cause more problems than it solves. We're in a playoff race and airing out just to get him reps doesn't make any sense.

Do me a favor.... Quit talking for "Tebow fans"

1) you are talking out your ass
2) You have no idea what "Tebow" fans want, except for the voices you keep hearing in your head.
3) I could care less if Tebow passes 1 or 100 times a game as long as we win. We had enough QB's with great stats that did sh it for Denver in the long run.

I am a 35 year Bronco fan, a 20 year+ Gator fan and a day 1 Tebow fan... Yet I have zero problem merging them together.

Bottom line is this, As long as Tebow is the starter and winning games, there is nothing more I want as a Bronco fan. I never bought into the "orton gives us the best chance to win" BS the front office was dishing out, I saw the results last year from that failed experiment and knew it was not going to change.

Stop trying to pick fights with everyone that likes Tebow.... Many Bronco fans became lifetime fans because of 1 player that they felt drawn to and that player made them a Bronco fan for life.

Kaylore
11-25-2011, 02:21 PM
You make solid post then throw in this kind of comment? You are better than this.

I'm not sure why you or anyone has a problem with that particular comment. It completely goes with my overall point: The passing game isn't working and throwing more "just because the fans want him to" is a stupid reason.

cmhargrove
11-25-2011, 02:22 PM
Honestly I have no idea what you're talking about. How does anything I said = not supporting Tebow? I root for Tebow every snap. I look forward to watching him play and was an advocate for him playing instead of Orton, particularly after the Raider game. For you supporting your QB = never saying anything bad about him even if its true. For me, supporting and rooting for a player doesn't mean ignoring their shortcomings.

Here's my point. Tebow fans want him to pass. Not because they think it will help the team win, but because they want to prove he can just so they can keep worshiping him. They want him to do well only so long as it makes Tebow look good. I want Tebow to keep doing the things he's been doing to win games and do not want him to pass just to prove a point. If we need to pass, and if he's progressed to where it makes sense to do so, then I hope he does. If running 50 times and passing 6 = a win, I will applaud that mindset and cheer Tebow as he hands off the ball and runs.

Tebow is raw, and pushing him to do too much, too soon, especially before he and the rest of the offense are in sync could cause more problems than it solves. We're in a playoff race and airing out just to get him reps doesn't make any sense.

I'm going to disagree with this statement (from my own perspective as the person that started the thread).

The knock (by almost every NFL professional) against Tebow is that he is killing drives, not converting on third downs, not scoring until the fourth quarter, not utilizing his receivers, et al.. The desire to call more pass plays is the desire to truly have the QB situation answered by the end of this season. If he makes it, great, if he can't pass the ball - we might consider someone else next draft.

I think we know that we will have to pass some in order to beat teams like the Patriots later this season. I also believe that the "rust has been knocked off," and he has had several weeks with the #1s. I want to see him pass, so we can go down Elway's checklist now, before the season is over.

And, the point with me posting actual video evidence (rather than my opinions) was to let each person see what made this kid successful, then ask why we aren't trying to follow that model? As fans, it is all of our goal for the Broncos to win the championship. I believe that Tebow's past should be our model for the future - they had something special at Florida and I really don't see why that success couldn't be replicated here. We already have the key player...

Kaylore
11-25-2011, 02:26 PM
I ama 20 year+ Gator fan and a day 1 Tebow fan...


Now I see why you're so defensive. I should have caught that sooner. And no, I'm not talking out of my ass. Every Teboner comment is "he can throw just everyone else sucks and we run too much!!!! We need to air it out!"

To be fair, there's is an element of truth in that. The receivers aren't playing that great and some of our linemen aren't as good at pass blocking as they are at run blocking. But also, Tebow kinda sucks as a passer right now. The good news is he's getting better and doesn't do anything to hurt his team unlike Orton. However throwing for just cause we can is a poor decision.

Inkana7
11-25-2011, 02:26 PM
That misses the point. The talking heads would have you believe Tebow is simply inaccurate. That means he can't throw it to a guy running in the open. I watched that game and I saw a guy slinging the ball all over the field. When a guy was open, Tebow threw him the ball and the guy caught it.

Whether it was Cincinnati or the '85 Bears - throwing a ball through a tire is throwing the ball through a tire.

No, it doesn't miss any point! There's a huge fundamental difference between an NFL defense and the defense of the 2009 Cincinnati Bearcats a few days after their head coach left!

NFL =/= College. That is why so many Heisman winners fail! What Tebow did in college is meaningless, and he has to prove that he can play in the NFL. Right now he is passing that test because we are winning, but he has one career game above 50% passing. I have absolutely no qualms with Elway not feeling ready to commit to someone who has trouble making accurate passes on a consistent basis. I dearly hope that Tebow figures it all out and proves he can be that kind of QB, because he has the sort of intangibles that you find in Super Bowl winning QBs, but that alone is not good enough for me, if I were GM, to feel like we've got "our guy."

It's absolutely flabbergasting to hear people rip into Elway for not putting the full weight of the Franchise's support behind a quarterback with more questions than answers, after 5 games. He said what he should have said, because it's an honest take on Tebow.

Flame away, Gator Nation.

DrFate
11-25-2011, 02:29 PM
The passing game isn't working and throwing more "just because the fans want him to" is a stupid reason.

I believe the passing game would be more effective if the coaches would call pass plays on more than 3rd and long. Down and distance is an important factor in the success of the overall offense, and that includes the pass game.

That belief doesn't make me a 'Tebowner' or whatever the term is lately.

The first series of the Jets game (the series where the team moved the ball pretty effectively) was a good mix of pass and throw.

http://scores.espn.go.com/nfl/playbyplay?gameId=311117007&period=1

There were passes called on all downs and distances. Team went 60 yards without much resistance. They kept the defense off balance.

The fans (most of them, I believe) don't want Tebow to pass more to see Tebow succeed. They want the Broncos to score more points. And I think they would.

DrFate
11-25-2011, 02:32 PM
No, it doesn't miss any point! There's a huge fundamental difference between an NFL defense and the defense of the 2009 Cincinnati Bearcats a few days after their head coach left!

If a QB can't throw a football to an open receiver, he can't do it. It doesn't matter if it's pop warner or the NFL. I can put Tom Brady and Donovan McNabb, in my back yard, throwing at a tire. Tell me which one is going to through it through the tire more often?

Kaylore
11-25-2011, 02:33 PM
I'm going to disagree with this statement (from my own perspective as the person that started the thread).

The knock (by almost every NFL professional) against Tebow is that he is killing drives, not converting on third downs, not scoring until the fourth quarter, not utilizing his receivers, et al.. The desire to call more pass plays is the desire to truly have the QB situation answered by the end of this season. If he makes it, great, if he can't pass the ball - we might consider someone else next draft.

I think we know that we will have to pass some in order to beat teams like the Patriots later this season. I also believe that the "rust has been knocked off," and he has had several weeks with the #1s. I want to see him pass, so we can go down Elway's checklist now, before the season is over.

And, the point with me posting actual video evidence (rather than my opinions) was to let each person see what made this kid successful, then ask why we aren't trying to follow that model? As fans, it is all of our goal for the Broncos to win the championship. I believe that Tebow's past should be our model for the future - they had something special at Florida and I really don't see why that success couldn't be replicated here. We already have the key player...
I can definitely appreciate this point of view, the idea that we need to "see" so we can know. However I have a problem with that. First, we're in a playoff race. That doesn't mean you want to start experimenting just to tinker. Second, its unfair to Tebow to ask him to do more than he's ready to and then evaluate him on that. If he fails, is it really a fair analysis? I value his heady play as a game manager more than his ability, or lack thereof, to hit a slant in front of the receiver. I would rather they grow him right, slowly, and ensure he learns at a pace that will build confidence as well as fundamentals. Everyone wants to "know" by the end of the season, but its unfair to him to assume we can.

As for what's worked at Florida vs. the Pros, I think in some measure we've seen that it is. To what degree is the next big question.

Kaylore
11-25-2011, 02:40 PM
I believe the passing game would be more effective if the coaches would call pass plays on more than 3rd and long. Down and distance is an important factor in the success of the overall offense, and that includes the pass game.

That belief doesn't make me a 'Tebowner' or whatever the term is lately.

The first series of the Jets game (the series where the team moved the ball pretty effectively) was a good mix of pass and throw.

http://scores.espn.go.com/nfl/playbyplay?gameId=311117007&period=1

There were passes called on all downs and distances. Team went 60 yards without much resistance. They kept the defense off balance.

The fans (most of them, I believe) don't want Tebow to pass more to see Tebow succeed. They want the Broncos to score more points. And I think they would.
Ok I can see why you took issue there. I didn't mean my comment to be reversible ie all Tebowners want him to throw and also all people that want him to throw = Tebowners. I don't want to suggest that wanting the offense to pass more means you're an idiot. I'm saying only that many (and this is true) want him to pass to silence the critics. That's not a good reason to start changing what you're doing, especially if its working. I know, the third down percentage and offensive yardage hasn't been good, and theoretically more passing would open things up. But there's a lot of different elements that need to work right to make things work there and I honestly think the coaching staff will slowly add those in once they see everyone on offense get to a level of proficiency they are comfortable with. Right now the defense has been playing out of their minds, and our punter is balling so playing conservative isn't the worst thing in the world. I mean we're winning games.

DrFate
11-25-2011, 02:44 PM
Right now the defense has been playing out of their minds, and our punter is balling so playing conservative isn't the worst thing in the world. I mean we're winning games.

Without a doubt. :)

I'll admit it - I get caught up in the 'prove them wrong' parade, because I'd enjoy seeing Hoge/Cowherd/Dilfer put a sock in it. I'd also like to see a Bronco first round pick succeed so the franchise can spend the 2012 pick on a corner or linebacker rather than a quarterback. (and this opinion can be frustrating because for every Maner that blindly supports Tebow there is one that openly roots against him)

Broncbow
11-25-2011, 02:48 PM
The desire to call more pass plays is the desire to truly have the QB situation answered by the end of this season.

Amen to that~!!:yayaya:

gyldenlove
11-25-2011, 02:54 PM
That misses the point. The talking heads would have you believe Tebow is simply inaccurate. That means he can't throw it to a guy running in the open. I watched that game and I saw a guy slinging the ball all over the field. When a guy was open, Tebow threw him the ball and the guy caught it.

Whether it was Cincinnati or the '85 Bears - throwing a ball through a tire is throwing the ball through a tire.

Yup, but throwing a ball through a 12 inch tire is a lot more difficult than through a 20 foot hoop, that is the difference and Tebow has shown he can't hit that 12 inch window consistently, regardless how well he hits the 20 foot hoop.

Agamemnon
11-25-2011, 02:55 PM
I also agree though that they shouldnt go exclusively to the spread. They need to keep elements of I and One back formations. The spread needs to be an aspect of the offense, not THE OFFENSE.

This is wrong, but you and the rest of the "pro-style" traditionalists can keep thinking that if you want to. It should be our base offense with Tebow. Period. Certainly more traditional pro formations shouldn't just go away, but the spread should be the heart of our passing and running game. And when I say 'spread' I mean 'spread option' with a balanced offensive attack where the run and pass play off each other and make use of Tebow's strength as a QB in both phases.

Too bad we stripped down our receiving corps to virtually nothing, thereby making such an approach all but impossible.

Kaylore
11-25-2011, 02:55 PM
Without a doubt. :)

I'll admit it - I get caught up in the 'prove them wrong' parade, because I'd enjoy seeing Hoge/Cowherd/Dilfer put a sock in it. I'd also like to see a Bronco first round pick succeed so the franchise can spent the 2012 pick on a corner or linebacker rather than a quarterback. (and this opinion can be frustrating because for every Maner that blindly supports Tebow there is one that openly roots against him)

Believe me, I do too. But I really believe in the "third option" in these either/or debates. Tebow doesn't have to be awesome now, and we don't need to prove he is right now! Do what it takes to win and bring him along doing what he's comfortable doing. Really you should do that with all your players. Von Miller doesn't drop into coverage a lot, Decker runs a lot of go's and deep posts, and then they sprinkle in the other stuff with those guys as they learn.

Compare that with McDaniels who wanted his players to do everything well so every week they could play a different style tailored to the game plan. That left a team with no identity.

I can say with absolute certainty this is the first time in maybe four, five years our team has distinct style and personality and the players seem to enjoy it and are starting to really settle into it. Do we pass? Not a lot, but when we do it's for forty yard touchdowns! Until then we smash your face in. And when we punt, you're starting on your own five with Von Doom humping your head. I can totally live with that kind of team. Obviously we aren't perfect, but at least we can see what we are.

Jay3
11-25-2011, 02:59 PM
That video is from 2008, Tebow's sophomore year.

DrFate
11-25-2011, 03:03 PM
Believe me, I do too. But I really believe in the "third option" in these either/or debates. Tebow doesn't have to be awesome now, and we don't need to prove he is right now! Do what it takes to win and bring him along doing what he's comfortable doing. Really you should do that with all your players.

Tebow isn't awesome right now, so I'm glad we don't have to prove that. :) I'd like him to be given the same general chance that every young QB is given. That's why I have compared him to players like Gabbert - the media isn't piling on Blaine Gabbert, saying he'll never succeed (even though his numbers to date are worse than Tebow's) simply because of the mythical 'eye test'.

I can say with absolute certainty this is the first time in maybe four, five years our team has distinct style and personality and the players seem to enjoy it and are starting to really settle into it. Do we pass? Not a lot, but when we do it's for forty yard touchdowns! Until then we smash your face in. And when we punt, you're starting on your own five with Von Doom humping your head. I can totally live with that kind of team. Obviously we aren't perfect, but at least we can see what we are.

^5

TonyR
11-25-2011, 03:07 PM
Thats a childish and unprofessional opinion.

That's not an opinion. It's a fact.

gyldenlove
11-25-2011, 03:08 PM
I believe the passing game would be more effective if the coaches would call pass plays on more than 3rd and long.

There are 2 problems with that...

1. Tebow is at his best as a passer on 3rd and 8 or longer, over 50% completion, 8 yards per attempt, and well over 100 passer rating.

2. He is no better on 2nd down passing than on 3rd down passing, he is quite a bit better when passing on 1st down, but still has trouble getting his completion rate over 50% which leads to too many 2nd and 3rd and long situations which we have problems converting.

As it stands Tebow is not ready to be a full-time passer in the league, he has suffered from being a backup for basicly 1.5 offseasons.

Jay3
11-25-2011, 03:10 PM
Dude. It was Cincinnati.

Dude, haven't you heard? Stink has attended a practice and repeated ad nauseum that Tebow completes less than 50% "against air."

Aside from the fact that I think it's kind of cheap to come to practice and then report bad things out (unless you've been enough to really see a lot), I flat-out don't believe Schlereth. I think he chases whichever way he senses the tide is turning. Which is also cheap.

Jay3
11-25-2011, 03:12 PM
he is quite a bit better when passing on 1st down,

Because this is the best situation he will face, and they need to do it more, all throughout all four quarters. I think Mike McCoy just really gets in a rut in quarters 2 and 4. Falls into very predictable patterns -- I'm sitting on my couch and I know exactly what is coming.

DrFate
11-25-2011, 03:15 PM
he is quite a bit better when passing on 1st down

That's when the defense isn't expecting it, right?

I'm not advocating a run-and-shoot be installed for the Chargers game. I'd just like to see a little more varied playcalling when it comes to Tebow passing the ball on early downs.

It doesn't have to be 20 yard outs or intricate time routes - just throw a screen once and a while.

Kaylore
11-25-2011, 03:18 PM
That's when the defense isn't expecting it, right?

I'm not advocating a run-and-shoot be installed for the Chargers game. I'd just like to see a little more varied playcalling when it comes to Tebow passing the ball on early downs.

It doesn't have to be 20 yard outs or intricate time routes - just throw a screen once and a while.

The problem with that is our back with the best hands is on IR. Of the rest of the backs who can catch, they're all pretty bad. McGahee is the best and I would spot his pass catching ability as "adequate."

fontaine
11-25-2011, 03:18 PM
As I was thinking about this weekend's game extra the time off for the broncos, I was trying to guess what "wrinkles" our coaches will come up with this week for the offense. So, I took a look down memory lane to watch Tebow's 2009 year when he broke the SEC TD record. I thought it might do some good to see why they were so potent.

I found myself asking. Is Tebow really such a bad passer? Are we using him properly? Why do they call so many quick passes and fake run plays to trick the defense? Why don't we do any of this?

I absolutely love the run game we are establishing, but I kept asking - are we really using this kid properly? It seems that there is a lot of this "read option" offense that is much more passing based. And, if he could make all those throws 2 years ago, why am I supposed to believe he can't do that now?

Anyway, i'm not trying to stir the pot, but I think the video shows that Tebow has a lot more skill (and potential) in a pseudo west-coast read option offense.

<object width="480" height="360"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/OsditoWmwNM?version=3&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/OsditoWmwNM?version=3&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="480" height="360" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true"></embed></object>

Seriously, no offense, but you don't have a leg to stand on. There's maybe a handful of throws there that are NFL caliber where the defender has tight coverage.

The rest of the passes are to guys where the defense has blown it's coverage (by incorrectly guessing run), or the wideouts are 1-2 yards open. Go look at it again, and instead of focussing on Tebow, focus on the target and see how wide open the guy is and where the defender is.

It's the same for any young QBs when they have to adjust from their WRs/TEs being yards open to just 1-2 feet. He's improving you just have to be patient and wait, instead of second guessing the coaching staff.

DrFate
11-25-2011, 03:19 PM
The problem with that is our back with the best hands is on IR. Of the rest of the backs who can catch, they're all pretty bad. McGahee is the best and I would spot his pass catching ability as "adequate."

TE screen? :~ohyah!:

Agamemnon
11-25-2011, 03:19 PM
The fans (most of them, I believe) don't want Tebow to pass more to see Tebow succeed. They want the Broncos to score more points. And I think they would.

We also see what happens when Tebow is allowed to throw on more than just 3rd and long late in games, and we do the math. We're crazy like that.

Agamemnon
11-25-2011, 03:22 PM
The problem with that is our back with the best hands is on IR. Of the rest of the backs who can catch, they're all pretty bad. McGahee is the best and I would spot his pass catching ability as "adequate."

This is just one example of the talent desert Tebow is dealing with. Which doesn't mean he doesn't need to play better. It's just something that should be factored in when assessing Tebow. We have so few legitimate weapons in this offense right now, especially in the passing game. It's kind of sad.

TonyR
11-25-2011, 03:25 PM
Seriously, no offense, but you don't have a leg to stand on. There's maybe a handful of throws there that are NFL caliber where the defender has tight coverage.

Exactly. You can find video of every top tier college QB lobbing passes to wide open WR's against overmatched defenses. Doesn't mean it's going to translate to the NFL. Doesn't mean that Tebow can't do it, just means this doesn't even begin prove that he can.

Broncbow
11-25-2011, 03:26 PM
I have absolutely no qualms with Elway not feeling ready to commit to someone who has trouble making accurate passes on a consistent basis...

Flame away, Gator Nation.

I have qualms with Elway. First of all how can he expect consistency with Tebows passing, when Tebow has to deal with the inconsistencies of Foxes passing scheme?

8 passess in the Chiefs game, where 63% of them where high risk passes? This is about as whacked of an attempt to develope a QB as you can get, and then to call out the QB for not executing a whacked scheme?

Bottomline is the passing scheme is completely whacked on this team.

It is hard to develope chemistry and rythm with your receivers if your just passing it once in a blue moon, and when you finally do get the opportunity to be unleashed in the passing game, its typically the result of being forced to come back from behind with a predictable passing scheme, where the run is all but abandoned.

Again is this any way to develope a young QB and his young receivng corp? For Elway to publicly make Tebow the scapegoat for what ails this offense, and then to go and publicly give credit to Fox for everything good it has going for it, well that is something I have qualms about.

Tebow is the Broncos starting QB, not the gators starting QB, the sooner you come to grips with this reality the better. I think The Broncos QB deserves that much respect, as if Florida fan is the only one who has distance himself from supporting Elways Jock over his face to see the lighh tof day of how Tebows passing game is methodically compromised by sly Foxes ultraconservatie Anti-Normal Modern Era Offense.

I'd love for someone to enlighten me as to when Tebow was afforded a Normal Modern Era offense to execute?

8 passing attempts in the first three-quarters of the Dolphins game, before Tebow was unleashed in the passing game to bring the team back from behind certainly was not.

Having Tebow thrown to the Lions teeth with 45 passing plays in his second start against the 5th best passing defense in the league certainly was not. Especially when you consider the reigns of the RB's was held back to just 5 carries in 6 drives after the rushing offense pounded the Lions for 50 yards in the first drive.

How do you not scheme one of the worst rushing defense, to be pounded by one of the best rushing offenses in that game. That was not a normal modern era offensive scheme, that was about as methodically whacked of a scheme as you could come up with, espeically considering yyour QB had less than a month to practice with the starting offense.


Having Tebow throw the ball 6 times for every run play in the last two drives of the second half of the Raiders game certainly was not.

Now do you have to be a member of gator nation to hold this flame thrower? I don't think so~!!

You know thinking about it, Fox did come close after those to executing a well ballanced run to pass modern era style offense, outside of the last two drives of the second half. Thing is when Fox did, Tebow did not disapoint, as a matter of fact he managed to throw for 2 TD's and have a 73% completion percentage. Despite Tebow being on a roll, Fox shut him down from passing during the 4th quarter.

My qualms with Elway are regarding the way he cowardly acts like a hypocrite with his scapegoating antics that has Tebow in the crosshairs, while making Fox, and even Orton for that matter emerge as if they where Saint's.

This flame thrower is burning my hands...:sunshine:

Broncbow
11-25-2011, 03:28 PM
Exactly. You can find video of every top tier college QB lobbing passes to wide open WR's against overmatched defenses. Doesn't mean it's going to translate to the NFL. Doesn't mean that Tebow can't do it, just means this doesn't even begin prove that he can.

Tebow was throwing TD's on a frozen rope 60 yards down the field and just ten yards off the ground, this while possessing a higher completion percentage than Peyton Manning~!!:yayaya:

Inkana7
11-25-2011, 03:28 PM
I have qualms with Elway. First of all how can he expect consistency with Tebows passing, when Tebow has to deal with the inconsistencies of Foxes passing scheme?

8 passess in the Chiefs game, where 63% of them where high risk passes? This is about as whacked of an attempt to develope a QB as you can get, and then to call out the QB for not executing a whacked scheme?

Bottomline is the passing scheme is completely whacked on this team.

It is hard to develope chemistry and rythm with your receivers if your just passing it once in a blue moon, and when you finally do get the opportunity to be unleashed in the passing game, its typically the result of being forced to come back from behind with a predictable passing scheme, where the run is all but abandoned.

Again is this any way to develope a young QB and his young receivng corp? For Elway to publicly make Tebow the scapegoat for what ails this offense, and then to go and publicly give credit to Fox for everything good it has going for it, well that is something I have qualms about.

Tebow is the Broncos starting QB, not the gators starting QB, the sooner you come to grips with this reality the better. I think The Broncos QB deserves that much respect, as if Florida fan is the only one who has distance himself from supporting Elways Jock over his face to see the lighh tof day of how Tebows passing game is methodically compromised by sly Foxes ultraconservatie Anti-Normal Modern Era Offense.

I'd love for someone to enlighten me as to when Tebow was afforded a Normal Modern Era offense to execute?

8 passing attempts in the first three-quarters of the Dolphins game, before Tebow was unleashed in the passing game to bring the team back from behind certainly was not.

Having Tebow thrown to the Lions teeth with 45 passing plays in his second start against the 5th best passing defense in the league certainly was not. Especially when you consider the reigns of the RB's was held back to just 5 carries in 6 drives after the rushing offense pounded the Lions for 50 yards in the first drive.

How do you not scheme one of the worst rushing defense, to be pounded by one of the best rushing offenses in that game. That was not a normal modern era offensive scheme, that was about as methodically whacked of a scheme as you could come up with, espeically considering yyour QB had less than a month to practice with the starting offense.


Having Tebow throw the ball 6 times for every run play in the last two drives of the second half of the Raiders game certainly was not.

Now do you have to be a member of gator nation to hold this flame thrower? I don't think so~!!

You know thinking about it, Fox did come close after those to executing a well ballanced run to pass modern era style offense, outside of the last two drives of the second half. Thing is when Fox did, Tebow did not disapoint, as a matter of fact he managed to throw for 2 TD's and have a 73% completion percentage. Despite Tebow being on a roll, Fox shut him down from passing during the 4th quarter.

My qualms with Elway are regarding the way he cowardly acts like a hypocrite with his scapegoating antics that has Tebow in the crosshairs, while making Fox, and even Orton for that matter emerge as if they where Saint's.

This flame thrower is burning my hands...:sunshine:

Our current passing scheme was implemented when it became clear that Tebow couldn't handle any other kind, not the other way around.

fontaine
11-25-2011, 03:29 PM
Is there any way to update your ignore list by join date (like from the broncbow douche above) instead of having to do it manually for every clown that became a "fan" in the last few months?

Broncbow
11-25-2011, 03:30 PM
Our current passing scheme was implemented when it became clear that Tebow couldn't handle any other kind, not the other way around.

Became clear? Oh do tell? When did that happen?

DrFate
11-25-2011, 03:32 PM
Our current passing scheme was implemented when it became clear that Tebow couldn't handle any other kind, not the other way around.

This is the kind of comment that annoys me. I haven't seen any evidence to support it, but it's portrayed as a statement of fact.

I was told 'Orton won a competition' which everyone knows was fiction. But I was told this, as if it were fact.

How many games did Tebow play in the 'other kind' of passing scheme?

Inkana7
11-25-2011, 03:33 PM
This is the kind of comment that annoys me. I haven't seen any evidence to support it, but it's portrayed as a statement of fact.

I was told 'Orton won a competition' which everyone knows was fiction. But I was told this, as if it were fact.

How many games did Tebow play in the 'other kind' of passing scheme?

2, and he looked like horse****. Now he just looks like a project.

Inkana7
11-25-2011, 03:33 PM
Became clear? Oh do tell? When did that happen?

http://scores.espn.go.com/nfl/boxscore?gameId=311030007

DarkHorse30
11-25-2011, 03:33 PM
Now I see why you're so defensive. I should have caught that sooner. And no, I'm not talking out of my ass. Every Teboner comment is "he can throw just everyone else sucks and we run too much!!!! We need to air it out!"



Can you name the one poster or two that says this? I'm reading that EVERY Tebow supporter is being labeled, a bit haphazardly (Teboner? Really? This reminds me of Raider and Chief fans with the "donk" idiocy. Do we really have to label fans of our team? Ortonites, Elwayans, Plummerics....great.)

DrFate
11-25-2011, 03:34 PM
2, and he looked like horse****. Now he just looks like a project.

I assume you mean the Dolphins game and the Lions game?

DrFate
11-25-2011, 03:36 PM
http://scores.espn.go.com/nfl/boxscore?gameId=311030007

I really don't think the Lions game is a fair indicator of, well, anything. The team was blown out in every phase.

Inkana7
11-25-2011, 03:36 PM
I assume you mean the Dolphins game and the Lions game?

Yup.

barryr
11-25-2011, 03:40 PM
Can you name the one poster or two that says this? I'm reading that EVERY Tebow supporter is being labeled, a bit haphazardly (Teboner? Really? This reminds me of Raider and Chief fans with the "donk" idiocy. Do we really have to label fans of our team? Ortonites, Elwayans, Plummerics....great.)

Yep, that is what I want to know too. I like other players on the team as well, but I can't like them, I just have to like the team as those say about Tebow and not putting him above the team? Those wanting Tebow to fail because of some fans liking him is rather stupid when you think about it.

DrFate
11-25-2011, 03:41 PM
Yup.

I'm not sure 2 games is a what I'd call a 'valid sample'...

The final numbers from he MIA game don't look too bad, but I'm not sure how many of the passing yards were in the final two drives (80 and 56 yards, respectively)

TonyR
11-25-2011, 03:43 PM
Can you name the one poster or two that says this?

Seriously? Sure, Kaylore was using a bit of hyperbole but I don't see how you can disagree with his point. There are threads full of this kind of stuff. Hell, there's a thread towards the top of the front page right now asking whether or not Tebow is being used correctly in our offense.

DrFate
11-25-2011, 03:45 PM
Seriously? Sure, Kaylore was using a bit of hyperbole but I don't see how you can disagree with his point.

I can call for Tebow to be allowed to have a more open game plan while still admitting that Tebow needs work.

vonqkilla
11-25-2011, 03:48 PM
Amazing how similar our current O looks like that. Xs and Os I want more read option passes, and no more stupid larsen runs outside 1st down.

Tim had opportunities to run last week and threw bad passes instead.

Watch teams blitz his left side on passing downs. It happens consistently and tims awkward motion is really bad throwing to his right. He doesnt open up his hips and he tends to completely overthrow the ball. Id like a shotgun draw with lead back blocking.

Anything but a swing pass to a back on 3rd and 9 (J.J. 2nd qtr vs jets).

oubronco
11-25-2011, 03:54 PM
I think their using him in the best way so he will succeed

Jay3
11-25-2011, 03:57 PM
Exactly. You can find video of every top tier college QB lobbing passes to wide open WR's against overmatched defenses. Doesn't mean it's going to translate to the NFL. Doesn't mean that Tebow can't do it, just means this doesn't even begin prove that he can.

His point was how they threw all different types of passes and routes out of that look, while showing threat of read option run. He preceded the thread title with "X's and O's."

Inkana7
11-25-2011, 03:58 PM
I'm not sure 2 games is a what I'd call a 'valid sample'...

The final numbers from he MIA game don't look too bad, but I'm not sure how many of the passing yards were in the final two drives (80 and 56 yards, respectively)

The coaches themselves said they changed the offense after those 2 games. I know that conspiracy theories are all the rage around here these days, but I tend to look for more concrete answers to my inquiries. All the evidence, from training camp, preseason and his first 2 and a half games, points to Tebow not being ready for a traditional offense, and John Fox himself said they changed it up after the Lions game.

EDIT: And no, 2 games is not a valid sample, yet there are those miffed at Elway for not committing to Tebow 100% after 5.

Agamemnon
11-25-2011, 03:58 PM
I can call for Tebow to be allowed to have a more open game plan while still admitting that Tebow needs work.

No you can't. You are a Teboner, and must be burned at the stake. :P

barryr
11-25-2011, 04:01 PM
The coaches themselves said they changed the offense after those 2 games. I know that conspiracy theories are all the rage around here these days, but I tend to look for more concrete answers to my inquiries. All the evidence, from training camp, preseason and his first 2 and a half games, points to Tebow not being ready for a traditional offense, and John Fox himself said they changed it up after the Lions game.

From what I can see, Tebow will never fit in a traditional offense, but seeing the way he can run with the ball, why would you try to make him fit in one? If Elway wants such an offense, then Tebow will not be the QB to lead it. So for me, it all comes down to what type of offense the Broncos envision and want to use and that determining who the QB will be.

DrFate
11-25-2011, 04:03 PM
EDIT: And no, 2 games is not a valid sample, yet there are those miffed at Elway for not committing to Tebow 100% after 5.

I've been very critical of Elway re: his comments, but it's not about a 'commitment'. I don't want Elway to say 'Tebow is the QB for the next 10 years' either. I don't think anyone does.

I'd just like a more balanced response. And a more open offense to see if a commitment should be made.

Broncbow
11-25-2011, 04:05 PM
Our current passing scheme was implemented when it became clear that Tebow couldn't handle any other kind, not the other way around.

Became clear? Oh do tell? When did that happen?

This is the kind of comment that annoys me. I haven't seen any evidence to support it, but it's portrayed as a statement of fact.

I was told 'Orton won a competition' which everyone knows was fiction. But I was told this, as if it were fact.

How many games did Tebow play in the 'other kind' of passing scheme?



2, and he looked like horse****. Now he just looks like a project.


I assume you mean the Dolphins game and the Lions game?

Yup.

See you clearly have not been paying attention, becasue those two games where no where near being what is considered a Normal Modern Era offense. I already explained this...


Tebows passing game is methodically compromised by sly Foxes ultraconservatie Anti-Normal Modern Era Offense.

I'd love for someone to enlighten me as to when Tebow was afforded a Normal Modern Era offense to execute?

8 passing attempts in the first three-quarters of the Dolphins game, before Tebow was unleashed in the passing game to bring the team back from behind certainly was not.

Having Tebow thrown to the Lions teeth with 45 passing plays in his second start against the 5th best passing defense in the league certainly was not. Especially when you consider the reigns of the RB's was held back to just 5 carries in 6 drives after the rushing offense pounded the Lions for 50 yards in the first drive.

How do you not scheme one of the worst rushing defense, to be pounded by one of the best rushing offenses in that game. That was not a normal modern era offensive scheme, that was about as methodically whacked of a scheme as you could come up with, espeically considering yyour QB had less than a month to practice with the starting offense.


Having Tebow throw the ball 6 times for every run play in the last two drives of the second half of the Raiders game certainly was not.

Now do you have to be a member of gator nation to hold this flame thrower? I don't think so~!!

You know thinking about it, Fox did come close after those to executing a well ballanced run to pass modern era style offense, outside of the last two drives of the second half. Thing is when Fox did, Tebow did not disapoint, as a matter of fact he managed to throw for 2 TD's and have a 73% completion percentage. Despite Tebow being on a roll, Fox shut him down from passing during the 4th quarter.

My qualms with Elway are regarding the way he cowardly acts like a hypocrite with his scapegoating antics that has Tebow in the crosshairs, while making Fox, and even Orton for that matter emerge as if they where Saint's.

This flame thrower is burning my hands...:sunshine:

How is abandoning the run during the Detroit game in the first half, and allowing Tebow only 8 passing attempts in the first three-quarters of the Dolphins game equate to Tebow having a shot at running a normal modern era style offense?

Fact remains he has not, the only thing he has run with Fox at the helm is about the whackiest scheme ever been dreamed up in the modern era. and that is a fact.

The predictability of the passing scheme, and lack of passing reps until Tebow has to predictably come back from behind once the rushing offense is incompacitated, has played a huge role in killing Tebows completion percentage, killing the chemistry that this team is capable of building prior to being forced to play from behind.

The Jets game is another that ought to be brought up.

The predictability of the passing scheme, and lack of passing reps until Tebow was once again unleashed with the passing game in order to bring the team back from behind, due to the fact that Fox went to the well too many times with the rushing unit. This type of offensive strategy has indeed played a huge role towards Tebows completion percentage taking a nose dive.

It kills the chemistry and rythm that this team is capable of building prior to being forced to predictably pass from behind. Accuracy is not only the result of the receiver and QB being on the same page, but the scheme being on the right page for completions to actually occur.

Foxes spuratically predictable passing scheme has proven that it is not only unsuccessful, but possibly the worst in the league.

Tebow might as well be a rookie playing with two starting WR's who too may as well be rookies in their own right.

Now you'd think Fox would do more to take advantage of a passing opportunity, than wait till we are behind to turn Tebow loose, especially considering his excellent passing stats in the 1st quarter, compared to the 2nd and 3rd.

Why was the passing game shut down in the first half of the Jets game given Tebows tremendous success with it, especially considering the horrible results of the rushing offense?

7 Passes the entire first half is lame, especially when your QB has completed 5 of 7 thanks to a drop. That is a 71% completion pecentage, without the drop it is an 86% completion percentage.

Steve Young is right- "Broncos are doing a disservice to Tim Tebow to become a quarterback"

Agamemnon
11-25-2011, 04:06 PM
The coaches themselves said they changed the offense after those 2 games. I know that conspiracy theories are all the rage around here these days, but I tend to look for more concrete answers to my inquiries. All the evidence, from training camp, preseason and his first 2 and a half games, points to Tebow not being ready for a traditional offense, and John Fox himself said they changed it up after the Lions game.

It never ceases to amaze me that the people who are so quick to write off Tebow as a QB after a half season of starts, are so blind to the fact that our offensive coaching staff is one of the worst in the league right now. As bad as Tebow has been passing at times, McCoy and Co. have been just as bad or worse at calling plays or creating gameplans for the kid. To think the offense they "created" for Tebow is anything worth talking about, much less assessing him in, just boggles the mind. It has been a vanilla I-Form run game hybridized with a vanilla run option and triple option. And outside of late game comeback situations, the offense that they should be running with him (spread and spread option) is nowhere to be found.

jsco70
11-25-2011, 04:08 PM
Can you name the one poster or two that says this? I'm reading that EVERY Tebow supporter is being labeled, a bit haphazardly (Teboner? Really? This reminds me of Raider and Chief fans with the "donk" idiocy. Do we really have to label fans of our team? Ortonites, Elwayans, Plummerics....great.)

Awesome post...yet pathetic it has to be brought up.

I think many posters would here do themselves a favor by actually reading what they write before they submit their reply. I guess it's just the culture we live in these days.

cmhargrove
11-25-2011, 04:17 PM
Seriously, no offense, but you don't have a leg to stand on. There's maybe a handful of throws there that are NFL caliber where the defender has tight coverage.

The rest of the passes are to guys where the defense has blown it's coverage (by incorrectly guessing run), or the wideouts are 1-2 yards open. Go look at it again, and instead of focussing on Tebow, focus on the target and see how wide open the guy is and where the defender is.

It's the same for any young QBs when they have to adjust from their WRs/TEs being yards open to just 1-2 feet. He's improving you just have to be patient and wait, instead of second guessing the coaching staff.

I'm not going to disagree with you there, but what happens to the defense when you start running the ball for about 150-200 per game? The defense leaves more players in the box and they tend too bite early on a run fake. The "fake" run option pass play is intended to draw in the linebackers, and freeze the secondary, that is the very purpose of him taking the forward step. My contention is, plays like that will help create the 1-2 yards of separation that we have been looking for (the 1-2 yards you mentioned).

It's just good play action philosophy because it has an honest run play to back it up. I don't see any reason why it couldn't create the same separation in the NFL.

I really do have patience, its more a call for creativity. I think we have found something special if we understand how to use it.

fontaine
11-25-2011, 05:12 PM
I'm not going to disagree with you there, but what happens to the defense when you start running the ball for about 150-200 per game? The defense leaves more players in the box and they tend too bite early on a run fake. The "fake" run option pass play is intended to draw in the linebackers, and freeze the secondary, that is the very purpose of him taking the forward step. My contention is, plays like that will help create the 1-2 yards of separation that we have been looking for (the 1-2 yards you mentioned).

It's just good play action philosophy because it has an honest run play to back it up. I don't see any reason why it couldn't create the same separation in the NFL.

I really do have patience, its more a call for creativity. I think we have found something special if we understand how to use it.

Zone coverage backs are taught to be disciplined in covering their WRs or hit the street.

Man cover usually can't see/care what the QB is doing unless the WR actively engages in a block in which case it's a run.

If it was as easy as generating 1-2 wide open yards of seperation with the threat of run and a mobile QB then it would have been done already. Like I said, no offense, but you don't see that in the NFL unless it's a blown coverage or the DB slips.

It's why guys like Harvin are NFL type player and guys he was blowing past in college aren't.

Inkana7
11-25-2011, 06:21 PM
It never ceases to amaze me that the people who are so quick to write off Tebow as a QB after a half season of starts, are so blind to the fact that our offensive coaching staff is one of the worst in the league right now. As bad as Tebow has been passing at times, McCoy and Co. have been just as bad or worse at calling plays or creating gameplans for the kid. To think the offense they "created" for Tebow is anything worth talking about, much less assessing him in, just boggles the mind. It has been a vanilla I-Form run game hybridized with a vanilla run option and triple option. And outside of late game comeback situations, the offense that they should be running with him (spread and spread option) is nowhere to be found.

This is all predicated on your theory of the spread A) Working long-term in the NFL and B) Being right for Tebow. Excuse me for being skeptical that solution by random guy on the internet is the right solution.

Spider
11-25-2011, 06:27 PM
This is all predicated on your theory of the spread A) Working long-term in the NFL and B) Being right for Tebow. Excuse me for being skeptical that solution by random guy on the internet is the right solution.

you know your going to hell for what you posted ....I just found out myself over the tebow drafted by raiders thread ;D

Hamrob
11-25-2011, 07:45 PM
Seriously, no offense, but you don't have a leg to stand on. There's maybe a handful of throws there that are NFL caliber where the defender has tight coverage.

The rest of the passes are to guys where the defense has blown it's coverage (by incorrectly guessing run), or the wideouts are 1-2 yards open. Go look at it again, and instead of focussing on Tebow, focus on the target and see how wide open the guy is and where the defender is.

It's the same for any young QBs when they have to adjust from their WRs/TEs being yards open to just 1-2 feet. He's improving you just have to be patient and wait, instead of second guessing the coaching staff.Here's what I would say in response to your comments:

Tebow put the ball where it needed to be....he can't control the guy being wide open or not. Don't forget that these are only his TD's. He had plenty of passes that were lasers thrown on a dime. I wasn't a fan of Tebow at Florida...but, he was the full package.

Here's my opinion...his mechanics and passing ability are similar to Phillip Rivers. Tebow just needs reps and time to develop. That's my opinion.

I'm crossing my fingers that he gets his chance here. I really think if he wins 3-4 more games this year...Fox will be in his corner. Why? Because he will say, I can win with this kid.

Think about it. If Tebow comes in and goes 7-4 or 8-3....Fox is going to believe that Tebow could have won at least 2-3 of the first five games as apposed to just 1. What that means is; Denver would have won anywhere from 9-11 games in Tebow's first year starting. What coach is going to want to bench that kid? I don't believe Fox will. In fact, I can see him warming up to him more and more each week!

epicSocialism4tw
11-25-2011, 09:30 PM
:~ohyah!: But if I someone slams Elway and I complain, I'm "Emo" right? ::)

No, you're emo because you throw fits about the way that other people behave.

Those people weren't attacking you personally, but you made sure to attack them personally because you don't want them in your clique.

Emo.

Kaylore
11-25-2011, 10:43 PM
No, you're emo because you throw fits about the way that other people behave.

Those people weren't attacking you personally, but you made sure to attack them personally because you don't want them in your clique.

Emo.

I see. I attack other people = Emo

You attack other people = perfectly acceptable.

Nurrrrrr.....

Atwater His Ass
11-25-2011, 10:46 PM
There's a fine line between asking Tebow to do too much and stunting his development.

I think Fox has actually done a pretty good job of protecting Tebow up to this point. I would like to see them open up a little bit more and offer Tebow short quick passes on first and second down. Get him in a rythm and keep the defense honest. I would also like to see a lot more bootlegs.

Let's not forget that the defense has been playing out of their minds lately. That can't keep up the rest of the way, and sooner or later, Tebow is going to have to show he can win games with his arm. Personally, I feel he's been showing progress every week, and as painful / shocking as it is to watch our offensive gameplan at times, it's working and buying time for Tebow to develop. I just think he's going to have to show at least some potential in the passing game before EFX will even consider committing to him.

theAPAOps5
11-25-2011, 10:57 PM
I see. I attack other people = Emo

You attack other people = perfectly acceptable.

Nurrrrrr.....

You have to speak to the simpletons level Kaylore. Use words he understands like Tebow, Troll, any other one syllable word that is easy to pronounce. Only then he will get it.

That or draw him a picture, if it is real complex like 1+2 or other high level math problems like 1x1.

epicSocialism4tw
11-25-2011, 11:10 PM
sooner or later, Tebow is going to have to show he can win games with his arm. Personally, I feel he's been showing progress every week, and as painful / shocking as it is to watch our offensive gameplan at times, it's working and buying time for Tebow to develop. I just think he's going to have to show at least some potential in the passing game before EFX will even consider committing to him.

I think that he has been improving by the week, and that he is going out of his way not to make mistakes. Fox even highlighted that on NFL network.

When Tebow gets let loose at the ends of games, he shines. He completes his passes and he eats up chunks of yardage on the ground.

I think he'll continue to win. If he gets the Broncos even close to the playoffs, he has more than earned the right to get a fair shot. And by a fair shot, I mean a full offseason with the coaching staff and the team.

Its astonishing that he even has us in the conversation at this point, and the staff should reward him with support. If you cant support wins...what on earth can you support? But thats beside the point. Tebow needs an offseason and a preseason of practicing with the first team.

DarkHorse30
11-26-2011, 01:13 AM
Seriously?

Yes. Name one.

Every Teboner comment is "he can throw just everyone else sucks and we run too much!!!! We need to air it out!"

There's the quote. Specifically the part that says "everyone else sucks" because that is the premise that defines what a "Tebowite" (I refuse to use Kaylore's word, it's juvenile) is. I'm not even sure who "everyone else" is supposed to be. Other QBs? Teammates? Cheerleaders?

I would venture the theory that the alleged "Tebowite" doesn't exist......except in the minds of the ones that invented the term to describe those they disagreed with.

broncosteven
11-26-2011, 01:48 AM
Denver's front office/coaching staff is trying its best to ruin Tim Tebow, for what reason, that is beyond me.

Tim's last game in collage went like this:

Completed 31 of 35 passes, Tebow threw for a career-high and Sugar Bowl-record 482 yards and three touchdowns while running for 51 yards another score. Yeah I know, the ignorant and uninformed at the mane only repeat what they hear on the radio, TV or read on the internet, But they failed to watch every game he played in collage.

I would love to see the kid do that at the NFL level, that would make him an All Pro and give us chances to be competitive vs teams like Detroit who focus on taking away the run and blitz the hell out of Tim.

The day Tim starts slinging it in a shoot out for a win and can go throw for throw vs a QB like Brady will be the day we need to stop thinking about drafting a replacement starting QB and begin looking at a depth QB draft in lower rounds.

Having great college stats when most power house college programs beatup on the little teams like Toledo and NIU putting 65 points up in each of those games and having 3-4 real tough games a year which are harder but still not at the level of the NFL skews the stats.

Really putting 51 on the Cincy bearcats is nothing like the type of competition Tim is facing in the NFL.

I would like to know who from the 2010 (or is it 2009) bearcats made it into the NFL and is starting and contributing at a high level.

The college level is so watered down that is why it takes QBs among others to adjust to the speed of the game.

I will watch college games when there is nothing on or I have friends or family over, I watched a Timbo game on my last trip to Denver to see the Broncos vs Saints in 2008. It was Gators vs Tenn and Tim did ok but you could see where he may struggle once he goes to the NFL but he also showed heart and I believe they beat up on a struggling Tenn team trying to find an idenity behind a new coach or something, I dunno because I kept falling in and out of a nap.

I get ND games here in Chicago and they are the worst for promoting college football because they suck and get beat down most of the time.

Do it at the NFL level in a year or 2 like John did in the Drive and the kid will have me, Players have to prove they can do it at the NFL level, so far all Tim has proved is he can option/zone/read at this level. Start slinging it and win doing it and he will shut up those complaining about him.

I had the same point about mCd 2 years ago, shut people up and win on the field and all will be well, too bad for him it only really lasted 6 games, then he had the 2 4 game losing streaks in his 1st year followed by 2 more before he called his dad to walk the sidelines with him before he got the axe.

I would like to see Tebow show NFL level progress the rest of this season and take us to 1 playoff game. He does that he should get the reins next year and get better and better each game until he is the next legit Brady or Manning slinging the ball.

I just don't want to hear about what he did in the minor leagues. This is the big show. Perform or go back to the college level and coach.

Bronco Yoda
11-26-2011, 04:45 AM
We talked about this on the podcast. It's combination of things.

1. Tebow. He reads the defense too slowly and is inaccurate, mostly due to poor mechanics. He didn't get many of the reps in preseason with the starters with the exception of the run plays out of the "Tebow" package that they worked on each practice. The lack of the offseason exacerbated some of Tim's problems.

2. The receivers are young and inexperienced. As such they fail to adjust their routes properly in blitz situations and have shown a propensity to drop the ball.

3. Because of the above, the coaching staff watches the passing fail in practice and elect to not make it a key point of the gameplan in order to prevent turnovers and protect the defense. This means fewer reps and fewer passes. Some of it is dictated by the teams they play too. For example Kansas City has two good corners and the only games they have won were games they got interceptions. Rather than give them that, I'm convinced the staff elected to not run.

4. The wind has been bad in two of the last three games we played. This was a factor in how the passing game looked.

The bottom line is while Tebow does need to throw better, the passing game has several issues beyond just Tim and so the staff isn't featuring that aspect as prominently. They certainly aren't going to try and throw more just so the Teboners' ego's can be sated.


I agree with most of this. But I've also said before that I think that his mechanical problems are overblown.

That being said... I do believe that this new offense is protecting more than just Tebow. The WR's, The O-line pass blocking & RB's have their own problems they're working with also. Everyone is benefiting from this new ultra conservative approach.

Broncbow
11-26-2011, 05:12 AM
sooner or later, Tebow is going to have to show he can win games with his arm. Personally, I feel he's been showing progress every week, and as painful / shocking as it is to watch our offensive gameplan at times...

Chiefs game when the ultra conservative scheme failed, Tebow won it with his arm. Same can be said about the Dolphins game. 2 passing TD's and over 100 yards rushing in the Raiders game pretty much makes Tebow the MVP then as well.

Jets game was actually the first game Tebow did not manage to throw a TD in. It would have been nice to see him allowed to take a few shots into the endzone when we were in range on multiple occasions. Its not as if Tebow is a threat to the team in the passing game with his 125 attempts to 1 int this season.

Despite not throwing as much as folks like Steve Young would prefer to see Tebow throw in order to properly develope, Tebow is still in essance winning games with his arm by not turning it over, I mean did we not just see Sanches lose the game with his arm?

How about Stafford, Dalton and Newton losing games with their arm?

Dalton 5 INT's in his last 2 games.

Newton 5 INT's in his last 2 games

Stafford has 9 INT's in his last 3 games

Tebow won The phins game with his arm when the ultra conservative offense that only allowed 8 passing attempts in the first three-quarters failed.

Chargers game is a perfect example of what not to do. Tebows first pass came on 3rd down and long. Is this a way to break in a QB on his first passing attempt of the season? He did how ever complete it. What is crazier still is Tebows first pass of his first start came with the left DE coming at him unblocked. Talk about being set up to fail or what? This is not how you develope a QB.

Speaking of how not to develope your QB. On passes two and three of the chargers game, Tebows next two passing attempts are deep high risk passes that fall incomplete. Now Fox is clearly putting on a clinic of what not to do. Where are all the high percentage pass plays to get this young lad into a passing rythm with starters he has been denied practice with??

Fox has been stunting Tebows growth in the passing game, and nothing is more telling of this fact than seeing Tebow relegated to tossing it 101 times while the team is behind and only 24 when we are not.

Tebow has had only 17 attempts in the first quarter, Tebow had 8 passing plays in the first quarter when he was thrown into the teeth of the lions 5th ranked passing offense in his first start.

It did not help having one of the best rushing offenses in the league have the reigns pulled back on it against the Lions who had one of the worst rushing defensive units in the league either.

Talk about methodically putting on a clinic of what not to do? Oh the plot thickens in Tebows cinderella story when you take into account the measures put in place to sabotage Tebows passing game.

9 passing attempts in 4 games during the first quarter, that is just two attempts per game to get your QB to develope a passing rythm and chemistry with his young receiving corp.

This is indeed the express antithesis of how you develope a QB, especially with a QB that has a 58.8 completion percentage to go along with his 99.9 QB rating in the first quarter.

Now if you thought relegating Tebow to just 4 attempts per game to develope his passing game and then force him into the unenviable position to be in a predictable passing scenerio after another while attempting to bring a team back from behind.

101 in this case has nothing to do with a story of Dalmations, but of Cinderella. Starring EFX as the wicked stepmother. They did not birth Tebow (Cinderella) into the team.

Seeing the 101 passes playing from behind to just 24 when we are not, speaks vilumes in regards to the diabolical effort put in place to sabotage Tebows development in the passing game.

18 passing attempts per game when we are behind compared to just 4 when we are ahead per game? Well you don't have to be a rocket scientist to see the disservice to Tebows development the scheme has methodically and diabolically put in place.


Tebow has proven that he can be relied on in the passing game in regards to not turning the ball over.

Relied on in regards to being prodictive with the passing game initially in the game prior to our ultra-conservative antics relegating us to being behind more often than not.

Relied on when the team actually affords him more than just 8 passing opportunites a game.

These are Tebows completion percentages when he is allowed to get into a passing rythm with his new starting offense.

Attempts 21-Through-30 61.1 completion percentage

Attempts 31+ 66.7 completion percentage

Seeing Tebow only getting 21+ attempts in 3 of the 6 games he has played in, while being relegated to just 8 passes a 2 games worth of quarters is disheartening to say the least. Especially when you consider the game Tebow ought to have had 8 passing attempots in if any was the one he was relgated to 45 passing plays. This level of betrayal regarding Tebows development beig sabotaged ought to be enough to cause heads to roll IMO.

Every Broncos fan seeing this injustice ought to be just as livid as Steve Yound is. Time for those being blinded by Elways jock over their face to open their eyes to what has actually been going on.

fontaine
11-26-2011, 05:12 AM
Here's what I would say in response to your comments:

Tebow put the ball where it needed to be....he can't control the guy being wide open or not. Don't forget that these are only his TD's. He had plenty of passes that were lasers thrown on a dime. I wasn't a fan of Tebow at Florida...but, he was the full package.

Here's my opinion...his mechanics and passing ability are similar to Phillip Rivers. Tebow just needs reps and time to develop. That's my opinion.

I'm crossing my fingers that he gets his chance here. I really think if he wins 3-4 more games this year...Fox will be in his corner. Why? Because he will say, I can win with this kid.

Think about it. If Tebow comes in and goes 7-4 or 8-3....Fox is going to believe that Tebow could have won at least 2-3 of the first five games as apposed to just 1. What that means is; Denver would have won anywhere from 9-11 games in Tebow's first year starting. What coach is going to want to bench that kid? I don't believe Fox will. In fact, I can see him warming up to him more and more each week!

I'm not criticizing Tebow or saying he can/can't make those kinds of throws in the NFL.

Just that it's harder for him, like any young QB, because the windows are much smaller.

He'll be fine after two offseasons of work/timing/experience. Whether he gets that time in Denver is anyone's guess.

Broncbow
11-26-2011, 05:19 AM
I agree with most of this. But I've also said before that I think that his mechanical problems are overblown.

Exactly how else can you explain Tebow having a much better completion percentage than Peyton Manning had in college. ^5

bendog
11-26-2011, 06:15 AM
HE'S ACCURATE DAMMIT CAN'T OU IOTIONTS SEE IT

McDman
11-26-2011, 06:40 AM
Is there any way to update your ignore list by join date (like from the broncbow douche above) instead of having to do it manually for every clown that became a "fan" in the last few months?

It's obviously MacGruder/Alpha Seirra. Alpha came on here after MG got banned making ridiculously long posts, now tbis guy comes in with the same act.

McDman
11-26-2011, 06:45 AM
No you can't. You are a Teboner, and must be burned at the stake. :P

Oh, c'mon. The "Teboners" do the exact same thing. Galt grouped me in with freaking TGN yesterday because I was critical of Tebow's passing ability. Ignore the fact in almost every thread I've said I want him to succeed. Bc I'm critical of him I am a hater.

Broncbow
11-26-2011, 07:01 AM
It's obviously MacGruder/Alpha Seirra. Alpha came on here after MG got banned making ridiculously long posts, now tbis guy comes in with the same act.

This guy? Same act? Is this a play? What scene are we in? Who is the villain? Is this a love story, tragedy, comedy or all three perhaps. I have to admit some of the characters sure are good for a laugh.

Scene 1

Romeo (Tebow), attempts to win Juliet (Broncos fans) over, but they are torn apart by (Elway) her fathers feud that has made Romeo out to be a villain.

Scene Two

The fathers other children are caught up in the feud with their attempt to kill Romeo and his brothers. Poor Romeo and Juliet, all they want to do is live happily ever after...

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/6S6IJWilpx4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

McDman
11-26-2011, 07:18 AM
This guy? Same act? Is this a play? What scene are we in? Who is the villain? Is this a love story, tragedy, comedy or all three perhaps. I have to admit some of the characters sure are good for a laugh.

Scene 1

Romeo (Tebow), attempts to win Juliet (Broncos fans) over, but they are torn apart by (Elway) her fathers feud that has made Romeo out to be a villain.

Scene Two

The fathers other children are caught up in the feud with their attempt to kill Romeo and his brothers. Poor Romeo and Juliet, all they want to do is live happily ever after...

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/6S6IJWilpx4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

If by some small iota of a chance you are not MacGruder then you have missed the biggest character in OMane history.

Jason in LA
11-26-2011, 07:25 AM
In the video, on most of the TD passes, Tebow gets rid of the ball with great timing. He looks like a legit passing QB. And a number of those TD passes were outside of the redzone. Tebow would get the snap, fake the hand off and then pretty much get rid of the ball a second or two later. On the empty backfield plays, the ball was gone in a few seconds.

But what we see with the Broncos, Tebow drops back, and then starts running around like a chicken with his head cut off. It just looks silly. Looks like he has no sense of timing, of what the play is, or what the defense is doing.

That's one thing I never understood. Why was he able to do those basic things in college, but he isn't coming close to doing them in the pros?

Broncbow
11-26-2011, 07:26 AM
It just goes to show, you can never underestimate the impact poor coaching can have in a players career. Steve Young can attest to that.

If by some small iota of a chance you are not MacGruder then you have missed the biggest character in OMane history.

So I am a clone of the biggest character in Omane history. I guess I'll take that as a compliment. :kiss:

gyldenlove
11-26-2011, 09:53 AM
In the video, on most of the TD passes, Tebow gets rid of the ball with great timing. He looks like a legit passing QB. And a number of those TD passes were outside of the redzone. Tebow would get the snap, fake the hand off and then pretty much get rid of the ball a second or two later. On the empty backfield plays, the ball was gone in a few seconds.

But what we see with the Broncos, Tebow drops back, and then starts running around like a chicken with his head cut off. It just looks silly. Looks like he has no sense of timing, of what the play is, or what the defense is doing.

That's one thing I never understood. Why was he able to do those basic things in college, but he isn't coming close to doing them in the pros?

Because in college he ran pre-snap reads on almost every play. They would line up, see what the defensive matchup is, then from that he would decide to hand off, run or who to pass to. Once the ball is snapped he would proceed with his pre-snap read and if that read was pass it to player A, then he would pass it to player A and it would then be player A's job to get the ball.

In the NFL pre-snap reads are no good because defenses use so many fronts and variations to hide their coverage so what you see before the snap has no correlation to what you get after the snap. So now he has to get the ball, then after the snap while looking for where the pass rush is coming from he has to find out what coverage is being played and get the ball out to the window that will be open before that window is open. This is a very common thing for rookie QBs to struggle with.

On a typical pass play a reciever is typically open for about 0.5 to 1 second just after he has made the cut or when he is between zones depending on route and coverage, finding out when and where that window is, is very difficult and that is why Tebow has been struggling so much, it is not something he did in college and being a backup in the offseason and having a shortened offseason this year it is not something he has worked on a lot in practice.

Agamemnon
11-26-2011, 02:51 PM
Oh, c'mon. The "Teboners" do the exact same thing. Galt grouped me in with freaking TGN yesterday because I was critical of Tebow's passing ability. Ignore the fact in almost every thread I've said I want him to succeed. Bc I'm critical of him I am a hater.

I don't know the exact situation you are referring to, but personally I don't have a problem with people pointing out that Tebow is having accuracy issues right now. I have a problem with people acting like that's the way it's always going to be based off of eight career starts under mostly adverse circumstances (interim coach, no starting reps in either training camp, two different offenses, poor supporting talent his second season, etc.).

To close the book on a QB based off of accuracy issues after eight games is monumentally foolish. That's where the "hater" line starts as far as I'm concerned, not with simple criticism. The problem is that very few people on this board are simply critical of Tebow. Most of them seem to have an agenda beyond pointing out the present flaws in a developing QB's game, and that agenda tends to be one that wants to dump the guy before he's even had a single offseason as the starter so they can root for a guy who isn't Tebow (and all that implies).

Agamemnon
11-26-2011, 02:58 PM
Because in college he ran pre-snap reads on almost every play. They would line up, see what the defensive matchup is, then from that he would decide to hand off, run or who to pass to. Once the ball is snapped he would proceed with his pre-snap read and if that read was pass it to player A, then he would pass it to player A and it would then be player A's job to get the ball.

In the NFL pre-snap reads are no good because defenses use so many fronts and variations to hide their coverage so what you see before the snap has no correlation to what you get after the snap. So now he has to get the ball, then after the snap while looking for where the pass rush is coming from he has to find out what coverage is being played and get the ball out to the window that will be open before that window is open. This is a very common thing for rookie QBs to struggle with.

On a typical pass play a reciever is typically open for about 0.5 to 1 second just after he has made the cut or when he is between zones depending on route and coverage, finding out when and where that window is, is very difficult and that is why Tebow has been struggling so much, it is not something he did in college and being a backup in the offseason and having a shortened offseason this year it is not something he has worked on a lot in practice.

That doesn't actually negate his point on Tebow's throws being good in college. All it does is point out that Tebow's struggles probably have a lot more to do with him learning to read NFL defenses quickly and efficiently, which is something that will get better with time. A lot of his accuracy issues I honestly think have a lot more to do with this mental aspect of the game than his technique or natural throwing ability. That's one of the reasons I think he's so much better out of spread formations: because he's able to process coverages more quickly from the shotgun and said coverages tend to be more straightforward for him to read when the defense is spread out.

And by the way, pre-snap reads are very useful in the NFL. You just can't rely on them the same way you can in college.

Broncbow
11-26-2011, 03:01 PM
In the NFL pre-snap reads are no good...

On a typical pass play a reciever is typically open for about 0.5 to 1 second just after he has made the cut...

Hilarious!

Mile High Mojoe
11-26-2011, 08:08 PM
Honestly I have no idea what you're talking about. How does anything I said = not supporting Tebow? I root for Tebow every snap. I look forward to watching him play and was an advocate for him playing instead of Orton, particularly after the Raider game. For you supporting your QB = never saying anything bad about him even if its true. For me, supporting and rooting for a player doesn't mean ignoring their shortcomings.

Here's my point. Tebow fans want him to pass. Not because they think it will help the team win, but because they want to prove he can just so they can keep worshiping him. They want him to do well only so long as it makes Tebow look good. I want Tebow to keep doing the things he's been doing to win games and do not want him to pass just to prove a point. If we need to pass, and if he's progressed to where it makes sense to do so, then I hope he does. If running 50 times and passing 6 = a win, I will applaud that mindset and cheer Tebow as he hands off the ball and runs.

Tebow is raw, and pushing him to do too much, too soon, especially before he and the rest of the offense are in sync could cause more problems than it solves. We're in a playoff race and airing out just to get him reps doesn't make any sense.

For just a minute let’s leave out whether Tebow should be passing or not passing and address a bigger question here.

Instead let’s deal with this “worshiping” crappola.

The thing I’m most sick of when he comes to when talking about Tebow is how anyone who supports him or wants him to succeed must “worship him” or must be some wacked out right wing evangelical Christian.

I neither “worship” him nor am I an evangelical Christian so where does that leave a fan like me? Haters put all Tebow supports into a box with no way out. It’s an extreme generalization which far too many who don’t like Tebow whether for his play on the field or his religion have done on the OM and nationwide.

I find it offensive to be called a “Teboner” too, I’m not gay and no man gives me a boner. No a-hole not even TGN would have the balls to call someone a Teboner in public or private if delivered the way some have said it here. If said to me in the same context as had been said on the OM in public, I might get mad enough to punch you in the nose.

I’m first and foremost a Broncos Fan who wants a winner on the field; I could care less how it’s done or how ugly it is. I could even care less about what his faith is. Broncos Fans who want to attack other Broncos Fans because they support a player or a winning team makes no sense. You can rage all day long about next year’s draft, Tebow inadequacies, or Elway’s statements to the media but in the end if the team keeps winning none of it matters.

Tebow has not got a break from too many so called Broncos Fans based on his short 8 game career, his personality or his religious beliefs. Those that have been the most critical about him I think want to see him fail or replaced based more on his beliefs than his game. If Tebow didn’t believe in anything a lot of the BS about him wouldn’t even be discussed especially since the team is winning.

I fully expect Elway to be scouting college QB’s and all other positions until the end of the season and into the off season. That’s his job; I don’t believe he’s made up his mind yet about anything. The armchair GM’s on the OM have but he certainly hasn’t. I believe Elway for all his doubts wants him to be successful, win games and prove he’s worthy of coming back next year. He is rough around the edges but once he gets them smoothed out he could be a very special player.

So cut him and us Broncos Fans who support him some freakin’ slack and let this thing play out for a few more weeks. Then by all means go into full spin mode.

McDman
11-26-2011, 08:16 PM
For just a minute let’s leave out whether Tebow should be passing or not passing and address a bigger question here.

Instead let’s deal with this “worshiping” crappola.

The thing I’m most sick of when he comes to when talking about Tebow is how anyone who supports him or wants him to succeed must “worship him” or must be some wacked out right wing evangelical Christian.

I neither “worship” him nor am I an evangelical Christian so where does that leave a fan like me? Haters put all Tebow supports into a box with no way out. It’s an extreme generalization which far too many who don’t like Tebow whether for his play on the field or his religion have done on the OM and nationwide.

I find it offensive to be called a “Teboner” too, I’m not gay and no man gives me a boner. No a-hole not even TGN would have the balls to call someone a Teboner in public or private if delivered the way some have said it here. If said to me in the same context as had been said on the OM in public, I might get mad enough to punch you in the nose.

I’m first and foremost a Broncos Fan who wants a winner on the field; I could care less how it’s done or how ugly it is. I could even care less about what his faith is. Broncos Fans who want to attack other Broncos Fans because they support a player or a winning team makes no sense. You can rage all day long about next year’s draft, Tebow inadequacies, or Elway’s statements to the media but in the end if the team keeps winning none of it matters.

Tebow has not got a break from too many so called Broncos Fans based on his short 8 game career, his personality or his religious beliefs. Those that have been the most critical about him I think want to see him fail or replaced based more on his beliefs than his game. If Tebow didn’t believe in anything a lot of the BS about him wouldn’t even be discussed especially since the team is winning.

I fully expect Elway to be scouting college QB’s and all other positions until the end of the season and into the off season. That’s his job; I don’t believe he’s made up his mind yet about anything. The armchair GM’s on the OM have but he certainly hasn’t. I believe Elway for all his doubts wants him to be successful, win games and prove he’s worthy of coming back next year. He is rough around the edges but once he gets them smoothed out he could be a very special player.

So cut him and us Broncos Fans who support him some freakin’ slack and let this thing play out for a few more weeks. Then by all means go into full spin mode.

Sounds like you're going out of your way to make sure every body knows you're not gay. Hmmmmmm. Kind of homophobic to be punching people that call you a Teboner.

Also, I distinctly remember you talking about discussing penises in person with Rev?

theAPAOps5
11-26-2011, 09:31 PM
For just a minute let’s leave out whether Tebow should be passing or not passing and address a bigger question here.

Instead let’s deal with this “worshiping” crappola.

The thing I’m most sick of when he comes to when talking about Tebow is how anyone who supports him or wants him to succeed must “worship him” or must be some wacked out right wing evangelical Christian.

I neither “worship” him nor am I an evangelical Christian so where does that leave a fan like me? Haters put all Tebow supports into a box with no way out. It’s an extreme generalization which far too many who don’t like Tebow whether for his play on the field or his religion have done on the OM and nationwide.

I find it offensive to be called a “Teboner” too, I’m not gay and no man gives me a boner. No a-hole not even TGN would have the balls to call someone a Teboner in public or private if delivered the way some have said it here. If said to me in the same context as had been said on the OM in public, I might get mad enough to punch you in the nose.

I’m first and foremost a Broncos Fan who wants a winner on the field; I could care less how it’s done or how ugly it is. I could even care less about what his faith is. Broncos Fans who want to attack other Broncos Fans because they support a player or a winning team makes no sense. You can rage all day long about next year’s draft, Tebow inadequacies, or Elway’s statements to the media but in the end if the team keeps winning none of it matters.
Tebow has not got a break from too many so called Broncos Fans based on his short 8 game career, his personality or his religious beliefs. Those that have been the most critical about him I think want to see him fail or replaced based more on his beliefs than his game. If Tebow didn’t believe in anything a lot of the BS about him wouldn’t even be discussed especially since the team is winning.

I fully expect Elway to be scouting college QB’s and all other positions until the end of the season and into the off season. That’s his job; I don’t believe he’s made up his mind yet about anything. The armchair GM’s on the OM have but he certainly hasn’t. I believe Elway for all his doubts wants him to be successful, win games and prove he’s worthy of coming back next year. He is rough around the edges but once he gets them smoothed out he could be a very special player.

So cut him and us Broncos Fans who support him some freakin’ slack and let this thing play out for a few more weeks. Then by all means go into full spin mode.

Let's be honest you get lots of Teboners don't you

McDman
11-26-2011, 09:42 PM
Let's be honest you get lots of Teboners don't you

You're in for it now, he neg repped my last comment.

theAPAOps5
11-26-2011, 09:45 PM
Oh noes, a neg rep. LOL

epicSocialism4tw
11-26-2011, 09:45 PM
Let's be honest you get lots of Teboners don't you

For a guy who says he doesn't like the whole Tebow drama, you sure do your best to perpetuate it.

Here's a little help for ya:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/perpetuate

theAPAOps5
11-26-2011, 09:47 PM
For a guy who says he doesn't like the whole Tebow drama, you sure do your best to perpetuate it.

Here's a little help for ya:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/perpetuate

Hey little buddy, don't think I asked your opinion. Yet you still throw a fit.

How was your Denver TEBOWS pep rally, bet it was a blast

epicSocialism4tw
11-26-2011, 09:59 PM
Hey little buddy, don't think I asked your opinion. Yet you still throw a fit.

How was your Denver TEBOWS pep rally, bet it was a blast

http://horviltiki.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/tebow-jets.jpg

http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.979548.1321595576!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_630/image.jpg

http://www.cbsnews.com/i/tim/2011/11/18/tebow_133215640_620x350.jpg

http://patrickhourihanmedia.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/tim-tebow-denver-broncos-beat-the-jets-thrusday-night.jpg?w=576&h=261&crop=1

http://wac.450f.edgecastcdn.net/80450F/1390thefan.com/files/2011/11/Tebow-wins-it.jpg

http://media.carbonated.tv/55550_story__tebowstory.jpg

http://nationalpostsports.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/1118tebow.jpg?w=620

B R O N C O S W I N !

GB^2

theAPAOps5
11-26-2011, 10:11 PM
Can't argue with that post, well said. Go Broncos :)

Bronco Yoda
11-26-2011, 11:07 PM
Will the mods EVER clean up all these alternate accounts?

epicSocialism4tw
11-26-2011, 11:08 PM
Will the mods EVER clean up all these alternate accounts?

They arent even fun ones anymore.

LongDongJohnson
11-27-2011, 12:42 AM
considering tebow cant throw id say yes.

cmhargrove
11-27-2011, 06:15 AM
considering tebow cant throw id say yes.

I guess you decided not to watch the video?

TheElusiveKyleOrton
11-27-2011, 06:22 AM
For just a minute let’s leave out whether Tebow should be passing or not passing and address a bigger question here.

Instead let’s deal with this “worshiping” crappola.

The thing I’m most sick of when he comes to when talking about Tebow is how anyone who supports him or wants him to succeed must “worship him” or must be some wacked out right wing evangelical Christian.

I neither “worship” him nor am I an evangelical Christian so where does that leave a fan like me? Haters put all Tebow supports into a box with no way out. It’s an extreme generalization which far too many who don’t like Tebow whether for his play on the field or his religion have done on the OM and nationwide.

I find it offensive to be called a “Teboner” too, I’m not gay and no man gives me a boner. No a-hole not even TGN would have the balls to call someone a Teboner in public or private if delivered the way some have said it here. If said to me in the same context as had been said on the OM in public, I might get mad enough to punch you in the nose.

I’m first and foremost a Broncos Fan who wants a winner on the field; I could care less how it’s done or how ugly it is. I could even care less about what his faith is. Broncos Fans who want to attack other Broncos Fans because they support a player or a winning team makes no sense. You can rage all day long about next year’s draft, Tebow inadequacies, or Elway’s statements to the media but in the end if the team keeps winning none of it matters.

Tebow has not got a break from too many so called Broncos Fans based on his short 8 game career, his personality or his religious beliefs. Those that have been the most critical about him I think want to see him fail or replaced based more on his beliefs than his game. If Tebow didn’t believe in anything a lot of the BS about him wouldn’t even be discussed especially since the team is winning.

I fully expect Elway to be scouting college QB’s and all other positions until the end of the season and into the off season. That’s his job; I don’t believe he’s made up his mind yet about anything. The armchair GM’s on the OM have but he certainly hasn’t. I believe Elway for all his doubts wants him to be successful, win games and prove he’s worthy of coming back next year. He is rough around the edges but once he gets them smoothed out he could be a very special player.

So cut him and us Broncos Fans who support him some freakin’ slack and let this thing play out for a few more weeks. Then by all means go into full spin mode.

Dude, ****ing cry about it.

Tebow fans who think he can do no wrong call anyone who sees flaws in his game "haters" and "Raider fans" and other assorted bull****, so don't try this wah wah woe is me" bull****. Grow a pair, Tebowner.

elsid13
11-27-2011, 06:31 AM
I guess you decided not to watch the video?

I watched the video, and was wondering when the front office decide to schedule Western Kentucky University, because I think we can win that one. ;D

Broncos4tw
11-27-2011, 08:42 AM
Why do people keep assuming it's lack of vision on the coaches part, poor coaching or misunderstanding of Tebow's abilities that lead to the game plans that roll out each week, featuring a run-heavy attack?

As much as people enjoy trashing our coaches and leadership, they still know more about football in their little pinky, than most fans will ever have. They are doing what they are doing because they don't think Tebow can or is ready for your prototypical passing game. And Tebow needs to improve.. drastically. I'm still amazed people scream TEBOW! when the real reason we are winning is because of our defense. You should be yelling MILLER! He is the main story, not Tebow.

In his first four starts, I think the stats have him close to 40 possessions in the first three quarters.. and ZERO touchdowns. This isn't productivity, and isn't going to get the job done going into the future. We've been fortunate so far. It can't continue. We need production every quarter. We need third down conversions. We need extended drives.

You'll know Tebow is progressing as a QB once the game plans start changing. When he can read a defense at NFL speed, make adjustments, call audibles, and throw with greater precision during practice, they will insert this into the game plan. Believe me.. Elway and the coaching staff want to shift this to a more "normal" offense.

And the last thing...

People keep saying to 'develop' Tebow. Allow him time to get better at passing and fix his mechanics. Guess what... that is what college was for. Peewee, high school, college.. THOSE are the years you form your style, your precision, your skills. No NFL team is going to want to spend the YEARS it will take to develop a QB into the sort of QB they want, when it should have already happened. You draft a QB. You don't draft a potential QB. Mcdorkus went for potential. One of his many stupid decisions.

Hell, I'll dance a jig and root for Tebow if he suddenly sees the light, and he becomes the QB of our future. I hope he makes it. I love his fire and attitude and drive to win. But he has a ways to go. And I get a chuckle every time I see fans blaming the coaches for "handcuffing" our QB. If Tebow COULD play a prototypical passing attack, he WOULD. That would be our game plan. No NFL coach wants to run a college style offense.

jhns
11-27-2011, 08:45 AM
Dude, ****ing cry about it.

Tebow fans who think he can do no wrong call anyone who sees flaws in his game "haters" and "Raider fans" and other assorted bull****, so don't try this wah wah woe is me" bull****. Grow a pair, Tebowner.

No, they don't. They call the hater, haters.

epicSocialism4tw
11-27-2011, 10:10 AM
Why do people keep assuming it's lack of vision on the coaches part, poor coaching or misunderstanding of Tebow's abilities that lead to the game plans that roll out each week, featuring a run-heavy attack?

As much as people enjoy trashing our coaches and leadership, they still know more about football in their little pinky, than most fans will ever have. They are doing what they are doing because they don't think Tebow can or is ready for your prototypical passing game. And Tebow needs to improve.. drastically. I'm still amazed people scream TEBOW! when the real reason we are winning is because of our defense. You should be yelling MILLER! He is the main story, not Tebow.

In his first four starts, I think the stats have him close to 40 possessions in the first three quarters.. and ZERO touchdowns. This isn't productivity, and isn't going to get the job done going into the future. We've been fortunate so far. It can't continue. We need production every quarter. We need third down conversions. We need extended drives.

You'll know Tebow is progressing as a QB once the game plans start changing. When he can read a defense at NFL speed, make adjustments, call audibles, and throw with greater precision during practice, they will insert this into the game plan. Believe me.. Elway and the coaching staff want to shift this to a more "normal" offense.

And the last thing...

People keep saying to 'develop' Tebow. Allow him time to get better at passing and fix his mechanics. Guess what... that is what college was for. Peewee, high school, college.. THOSE are the years you form your style, your precision, your skills. No NFL team is going to want to spend the YEARS it will take to develop a QB into the sort of QB they want, when it should have already happened. You draft a QB. You don't draft a potential QB. Mcdorkus went for potential. One of his many stupid decisions.

Hell, I'll dance a jig and root for Tebow if he suddenly sees the light, and he becomes the QB of our future. I hope he makes it. I love his fire and attitude and drive to win. But he has a ways to go. And I get a chuckle every time I see fans blaming the coaches for "handcuffing" our QB. If Tebow COULD play a prototypical passing attack, he WOULD. That would be our game plan. No NFL coach wants to run a college style offense.

Tebow just has to get his footwork refined and, like any other young QB, get comfortable in the pocket at game speed.

He's struggling like a young QB...which is shocking given that he is a young QB without an offseason to prepare for the new coaching staff and was then thrown into the league without preparation.

But he still manages to win games...he still managest to contribute to wins. He still manages to show that there are times when he is unstoppable.

Broncos4tw
11-27-2011, 10:50 AM
Tebow just has to get his footwork refined and, like any other young QB, get comfortable in the pocket at game speed.

He's struggling like a young QB...which is shocking given that he is a young QB without an offseason to prepare for the new coaching staff and was then thrown into the league without preparation.

But he still manages to win games...he still managest to contribute to wins. He still manages to show that there are times when he is unstoppable.

Nonsense... Cam Newton is an example of a QB who "has to get comfortable in the pocket at game speed." He can still throw the ball. He threw for over 300 in his first game. All QBs go through growing pains. But they at least go through them throwing the ball. Elway was not great in his TDs.. picks.. etc. But he had a cannon for an arm, and came into the NFL throwing.. from the pocket. Tebow is utterly and completely different than your prototypical QB out of college. You are blinded by the Tebow-colored glasses you wear.

He absolutely has some intangible drive to win.. as long as we are in the game. That leads to some really fun and amazing finishes. But it won't keep us in games, and it won't save us if we are down a load of points. Detroit is a good example. We had no chance at all. And be honest.. the "best" team we played and beat is another 5-5 team. The only team with a winning record crushed us, badly. And we just squeezed by some really crappy teams. If we get down 14+ points, Tebows run-style method of QB will never win us games.

And our defense is THE reason we won those games. Tebows last drive heroics while technically is "winning the game," he'd never had been in the position to make those drives had our defense and special teams not performed decently.

People are blinded by heroics. They seem to be oblivious to reality. I love the heroics. I love the wins. I just don't see Tebow as our long term solution if this style of play continues. Tebow has literally one to two perfect passes every game. THAT'S IT. Many QBs have a few perfect tosses per QUARTER. That's the point of being a pro QB. If he can't convert some third downs with solid reads and dead-on passes, he'll never make it.

epicSocialism4tw
11-27-2011, 10:55 AM
Nonsense... Cam Newton is an example of a QB who "has to get comfortable in the pocket at game speed." He can still throw the ball. He threw for over 300 in his first game. All QBs go through growing pains. But they at least go through them throwing the ball. Elway was not great in his TDs.. picks.. etc. But he had a cannon for an arm, and came into the NFL throwing.. from the pocket. Tebow is utterly and completely different than your prototypical QB out of college. You are blinded by the Tebow-colored glasses you wear.

He absolutely has some intangible drive to win.. as long as we are in the game. That leads to some really fun and amazing finishes. But it won't keep us in games, and it won't save us if we are down a load of points. Detroit is a good example. We had no chance at all. And be honest.. the "best" team we played and beat is another 5-5 team. The only team with a winning record crushed us, badly. And we just squeezed by some really crappy teams. If we get down 14+ points, Tebows run-style method of QB will never win us games.

And our defense is THE reason we won those games. Tebows last drive heroics while technically is "winning the game," he'd never had been in the position to make those drives had our defense and special teams not performed decently.

People are blinded by heroics. They seem to be oblivious to reality. I love the heroics. I love the wins. I just don't see Tebow as our long term solution if this style of play continues. Tebow has literally one to two perfect passes every game. THAT'S IT. Many QBs have a few perfect tosses per QUARTER. That's the point of being a pro QB. If he can't convert some third downs with solid reads and dead-on passes, he'll never make it.

Tebow is certainly contributing to those wins. He's literally the teams best offensive player.

Broncbow
12-29-2011, 10:05 AM
A just over 2 passing attempt average in 5 quarters of the last two games. Are we using our QB properly? uh no

BroncoBeavis
12-29-2011, 10:08 AM
Nonsense... Cam Newton is an example of a QB who "has to get comfortable in the pocket at game speed." He can still throw the ball. He threw for over 300 in his first game. All QBs go through growing pains. But they at least go through them throwing the ball. Elway was not great in his TDs.. picks.. etc. But he had a cannon for an arm, and came into the NFL throwing.. from the pocket. Tebow is utterly and completely different than your prototypical QB out of college. You are blinded by the Tebow-colored glasses you wear.

He absolutely has some intangible drive to win.. as long as we are in the game. That leads to some really fun and amazing finishes. But it won't keep us in games, and it won't save us if we are down a load of points. Detroit is a good example. We had no chance at all. And be honest.. the "best" team we played and beat is another 5-5 team. The only team with a winning record crushed us, badly. And we just squeezed by some really crappy teams. If we get down 14+ points, Tebows run-style method of QB will never win us games.

And our defense is THE reason we won those games. Tebows last drive heroics while technically is "winning the game," he'd never had been in the position to make those drives had our defense and special teams not performed decently.

People are blinded by heroics. They seem to be oblivious to reality. I love the heroics. I love the wins. I just don't see Tebow as our long term solution if this style of play continues. Tebow has literally one to two perfect passes every game. THAT'S IT. Many QBs have a few perfect tosses per QUARTER. That's the point of being a pro QB. If he can't convert some third downs with solid reads and dead-on passes, he'll never make it.

Question, has Cam Newton ever had 2 passing attempts in a quarter. Any quarter? All year? Cam already has more games under his belt than Tebow. But arguing about Cam putting up numbers doesn't mean so much when he's throwing it all the time (and generally losing)

You'll never be able to read a defense if you never have any opportunities to see how they react until the 4th quarter.