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The Moops
11-22-2011, 09:44 PM
Tebow bucking ALL his critics one game at a time.

http://bit.ly/jWV7tK

Popps
11-22-2011, 09:49 PM
http://gifsoup.com/imager.php?id=2325596&t=o (http://gifsoup.com/view/2325596/make-it-stop.html)

Armchair Bronco
11-22-2011, 09:52 PM
Tebow bucking ALL his critics one game at a time.

http://bit.ly/jWV7tK

Great article. Pretty much sums things up.

Sadly, I predict that Elway will not read it, and even if he did he wouldn't "get it". ???

epicSocialism4tw
11-22-2011, 09:54 PM
http://gifsoup.com/imager.php?id=2325596&t=o (http://gifsoup.com/view/2325596/make-it-stop.html)

You know...you can always avoid a thread that you don't like.

Tombstone RJ
11-22-2011, 10:01 PM
nice read moops with some very good points...

mkporter
11-22-2011, 10:03 PM
Tebow has to improve his game to be the long term solution at QB. I think that he probably will, but it is certainly not guaranteed at this point. It is just as silly to say that he is our long term answer, as it is to say he can't play in the league.

epicSocialism4tw
11-22-2011, 10:09 PM
Tebow bucking ALL his critics one game at a time.

http://bit.ly/jWV7tK

Good stuff, Moops.

epicSocialism4tw
11-22-2011, 10:11 PM
Tebow has to improve his game to be the long term solution at QB. I think that he probably will, but it is certainly not guaranteed at this point. It is just as silly to say that he is our long term answer, as it is to say he can't play in the league.

You can say that Tebow is "our quarterback" and just go from there, though.

You can give him a legitimate shot to grow, just like most first round draft picks get.

Popps
11-22-2011, 10:14 PM
Tebow has to improve his game to be the long term solution at QB. I think that he probably will, but it is certainly not guaranteed at this point. It is just as silly to say that he is our long term answer, as it is to say he can't play in the league.

I just can't imagine it being any simpler than that.

epicSocialism4tw
11-22-2011, 10:22 PM
I just can't imagine it being any simpler than that.

Eric Decker needs to start catching the ball on third down when the ball hits him in the hands. I'm not convinced that he will be a WR in Denver next season.

Willis McGahee needs to start converting on 4th and 1 or on 3rd and 2 when he gets called upon to make the play. I'm not convinced that he will be a RB in Denver next season.

Champ Bailey needs to start picking off more passes when the ball is thrown in his direction. I'm not sure that he'll be playing CB in Denver next season.

Ryan Clady has been beaten too many times for negative plays and has committed way too many penalties this season. I'm not sure that he'll be playing LT in Denver next season.

Von Miller had to be benched because he was missing run assignments. I'm not sure that he'll be playing OLB in Denver next season.

Elvis Dumervil gets hurt too easily and needs to get more sacks. I'm not sure that he'll be playing in Denver next season.

...

Its easy to focus on the negatives of a player. Why anyone would do such a thing in the press is anyone's guess.

mkporter
11-22-2011, 10:23 PM
You can say that Tebow is "our quarterback" and just go from there, though.

You can give him a legitimate shot to grow, just like most first round draft picks get.

I agree, and I'm guessing John will give him this chance. The Duke needs some polishing on his PR skills, but I think he's been fairly level headed in his assessment so far.

SoCalBronco
11-22-2011, 10:32 PM
Name your price
a ticket to paradise
You can't deny Tebow any more
and I've looked
high and low

We've been from Brian to
to Jake to Kyle
If there's a more exciting QB (outside of Jay)
we'd have found it
But there ain't no
easy way around it

(chorus)
Light of the world
shine on Tim-my
Tebow is the answer
He wins games for us all
He sets us free
Tebow is the answer

Who knows why
his heart and grit won't let us die
We're all long suffering
Broncos fans
and we were never heard

It's such a terrible three years
in the Broncos world
People turn their heads
and walk on by
Tell me is it worth
not to give him another try

Light of the world
Shine on Tim-my
Tebow is the answer....

mkporter
11-22-2011, 10:34 PM
Its easy to focus on the negatives of a player. Why anyone would do such a thing in the press is anyone's guess.

He might have erred in saying it in public (although I really don't think it is the huge deal that everyone makes it to be), but it doesn't make his comment less true. Tebow has some great qualities, but he really does need to play better for us to win consistently against quality teams going forward. No different from any other young QB in this regard.

epicSocialism4tw
11-22-2011, 10:37 PM
He might have erred in saying it in public (although I really don't think it is the huge deal that everyone makes it to be), but it doesn't make his comment less true. Tebow has some great qualities, but he really does need to play better for us to win consistently against quality teams going forward. No different from any other young QB in this regard.

Thats why you don't heap pressure on the young player like Elway is doing with Tebow. There would have been no constant news cycle with Elway's quote had Elway just been wise about what he said. Tebow wouldnt have had a 15-minute interview on live national TV this morning had Elway been wise about what he said.

We need these guys focusing on the Chargers, not on whether or not Elway is driving wedges in the locker room.

mkporter
11-22-2011, 11:28 PM
Thats why you don't heap pressure on the young player like Elway is doing with Tebow. There would have been no constant news cycle with Elway's quote had Elway just been wise about what he said. Tebow wouldnt have had a 15-minute interview on live national TV this morning had Elway been wise about what he said.

We need these guys focusing on the Chargers, not on whether or not Elway is driving wedges in the locker room.

I'd bet dollars to donuts that we are far more concerned about this than Tebow or anyone else on the team is.

ZONA
11-22-2011, 11:52 PM
Tebow has to improve his game to be the long term solution at QB. I think that he probably will, but it is certainly not guaranteed at this point. It is just as silly to say that he is our long term answer, as it is to say he can't play in the league.

Yes absolutely. Without a true offseason under his belt, and working on only a handful of starts, he's been his best when it's mattered most. That does say something. Obviously everybody knows you won't always get that miracle win late in the 4th and you need to do more things throughout the game. But I think he will get there.

Archer81
11-23-2011, 12:58 AM
What's the question?


:Broncos:

theAPAOps5
11-23-2011, 01:10 AM
I like Tebow I just can't stand his fans who are currently bandwagon Denver Broncos fans and who refuse to shut the hell up.

epicSocialism4tw
11-23-2011, 01:38 AM
I like Tebow I just can't stand his fans who are currently bandwagon Denver Broncos fans and who refuse to shut the hell up.

The guy who started this thread and wrote the article has been a fan for a long time and campaigned for years for Floyd Little to get into the HOF.

Jay3
11-23-2011, 03:52 AM
The guy who started this thread and wrote the article has been a fan for a long time and campaigned for years for Floyd Little to get into the HOF.

People don't care about such distracting details. The "I hate Tebow's fans" meme has given people the outlet they need to express a disdain they have for a part of Tebow they don't like. It's looking for the worst in people.

fontaine
11-23-2011, 05:27 AM
Thats why you don't heap pressure on the young player like Elway is doing with Tebow. There would have been no constant news cycle with Elway's quote had Elway just been wise about what he said. Tebow wouldnt have had a 15-minute interview on live national TV this morning had Elway been wise about what he said.

We need these guys focusing on the Chargers, not on whether or not Elway is driving wedges in the locker room.

If Tebow or any other QB can't play to their best because they get affected by pressure from outside the game, like from the media, then they're not worth starting.

Tebow isn't going to fail or succeed because Elway and co are evaluating his performance (and rightly so). He's got too strong a character to be affected by that.

But it does say a lot about fans who get distraught and dramatic over these blurbs that are hyped up for that reason by the media.

Steve Prefontaine
11-23-2011, 05:52 AM
http://gifsoup.com/imager.php?id=2325596&t=o (http://gifsoup.com/view/2325596/make-it-stop.html)

It was actually a good article. Thanks for trolling Popps.

jsco70
11-23-2011, 06:08 AM
Good article which sums up my feelings exactly. I think it would be a shame to give up on the guy after only a handful of games. His ability to elevate his play, and the play of those around him, will not be easily replaced.

barryr
11-23-2011, 06:14 AM
Good article which sums up my feelings exactly. I think it would be a shame to give up on the guy after only a handful of games. His ability to elevate his play, and the play of those around him, will not be easily replaced.

True, we saw how uninspired and little emotion this team played when Orton was the QB. It was like they were zombies or the look of a team that is just playing out the string of games when they are out of the playoff picture and this is week 2 for crying out loud.

theAPAOps5
11-23-2011, 06:40 AM
The guy who started this thread and wrote the article has been a fan for a long time and campaigned for years for Floyd Little to get into the HOF.

I know and realized that after I posted, which I should have fixed. While this very much looks like it was directed at him it isn't. It was a statement in general.

By the way Mr. The Moops I love your blog.

SureShot
11-23-2011, 07:22 AM
I like Tebow I just can't stand his fans who are currently bandwagon Denver Broncos fans and who refuse to shut the hell up.

I'm willing to bet almost half all Bronco fans are fans because of John Elway.

gunns
11-23-2011, 07:28 AM
Tebow has to improve his game to be the long term solution at QB. I think that he probably will, but it is certainly not guaranteed at this point. It is just as silly to say that he is our long term answer, as it is to say he can't play in the league.

That's it.

GM John Elway was asked if Tebow's 4-1 heroics-gushing record has changed his mind

Tebow's 4-1 heroics-gushing record? Hmmmm Sorry rest of the Broncos, I guess you are just pretty fodder to compliment Tebow.

Whoa, John. You're 5-5. Who's talking about a World Championship? That hasn't happened in 13 years, when you last took a snap (not to mention it took you 15 years to win a championship yourself).



WTF??? Isn't a championship what each team plays for each year? Isn't that the ultimate goal? What are we the Raiders now? Seems to be looking to the future of the team, not resigned to what it is now. And it may have taken 15 years to win one, but he took a team of scrubs to 3 on his arm and running and a losing team to the playoffs in his 2nd year. Dog on Elway the VP, but not the QB. Hello...

Two weeks later against the Raiders, Tebow beat Oakland with his arm. And at Kansas City when the game was tied at 10 in the 4thquarter, Tebow arched a 56-yard perfect pass to Eric Decker to beat Kansas City with his arm

Tebow beat Oakland with his arm? Gee, I thought it was a team effort. I guess it had nothing to do with Eddie Royal's 85 yard return, or McGahee's 163 yards rushing and 2 TD's or the defense's 3 INT's and 2 sacks. And of course the horrible Decker couldn't possibly have caught that pass.

Tebow has sparked the team and has made contributions to the success. But he is in no way solely responsible for the wins or playing like a QB. He has a lot of improving to do. Why don't we just keep seeing this improvement, if it's there, instead of throwing the rest of the Bronco organization and team under the bus for Tebow's mistakes.

ShutDownPoster
11-23-2011, 07:34 AM
Can someone start a thread about how much our ST has improved?

ColoradoDarin
11-23-2011, 07:40 AM
You know...you can always avoid a thread that you don't like.

Superfan Popps can't!

maher_tyler
11-23-2011, 08:04 AM
Tebow has to improve his game to be the long term solution at QB. I think that he probably will, but it is certainly not guaranteed at this point. It is just as silly to say that he is our long term answer, as it is to say he can't play in the league.

This is something i think we can all agree on. When guys are wide open and you miss, there aren't really any excuses. The play calling needs to get better to. Running the ball 95% of the time on first down isn't helping out much.

jhns
11-23-2011, 08:09 AM
I wouldn't say he is the future yet. I am getting close to thinking he should be given an offseason as the guy and start next season though. He is doing good things now. It would be nice to see what he could do with better timing and a full offseason to build an offense around his strengths.

HAT
11-23-2011, 08:14 AM
Its easy to focus on the negatives of a player. Why anyone would do such a thing in the press is anyone's guess.

Elway doesn't always look pretty as a GM...He just wins. Denver is 4-1 since Elway started 'slighting' Tebow in public.

Keep it going John!

jhns
11-23-2011, 08:16 AM
Elway doesn't always look pretty as a GM...He just wins. Denver is 4-1 since Elway started 'slighting' Tebow in public.

Keep it going John!

And 1-4 with the guy that gives the team the best chance to win...

Dedhed
11-23-2011, 08:18 AM
Tebow has to improve his game to be the long term solution at QB. I think that he probably will, but it is certainly not guaranteed at this point. It is just as silly to say that he is our long term answer, as it is to say he can't play in the league.Of course he has to improve in order to be the long term answer, but he's shown more than enough potential to make it crazy to use a high draft pick on a QB next year.

HAT
11-23-2011, 08:24 AM
And 1-4 with the guy that gives the team the best chance to win...

^^ Nobody cares anymore....

Elway has been awesome at GM'ing since he started slamming Tebow as a starter.

Don't look ahead John, just keep doing what you are doing and take it week by week.

Dedhed
11-23-2011, 08:24 AM
Elway doesn't always look pretty as a GM...He just wins. Denver is 4-1 since Elway started 'slighting' Tebow in public.

Keep it going John!
Actually, he's been doing it since pre-season.

theAPAOps5
11-23-2011, 08:30 AM
I'm willing to bet almost half all Bronco fans are fans because of John Elway.

You know that is damn fine point. Really never even framed it that way. ppreciate that, God Bless









I am being serious too by the way. Although fans were created by Elway because of his play in the NFL, Tebow is mostly because of college and his 100% sincere and honest character. There is a difference but still a valid point.

Smiling Assassin27
11-23-2011, 08:31 AM
1. A full offseason will make Tebow a better qb, period.

2. Saying that you are 'no closer to feeling if you have your qb on this team' is NOT the same as saying 'i do not have our qb on this team'. If he's no closer to knowing if Tebow will fit here, so be it. That's reasonable. But the media--as they always do--turned it into 'Tebow is not the qb of this team' and 'Tebow cannot play qb on this team'. Elway's statement was ok, but I agree that he's gotta choose words carefully or you get what we have now--a rift over something that really was benign.

3. Guys like Steve Young, Vick, et al took off down the field at the first sign of pocket collapse early in their careers too. They got better, and so will Tim with coaching, reps, and the benefit of an offseason to review every snap and read. Is he the future? Who knows. Is the present? Absolutely. Winning cures most things, although I doubt it will cure Merrill Hodge's withered up brain or Cris Carter's 'you must win pretty' disease.

theAPAOps5
11-23-2011, 08:33 AM
Vic and Gary had a great point. These comments by John Elway were but a mere sliver of a 27 minute radio show. We as fans were slamming McD and his Bellicheat ways of secrecy. Elway is openly honest and he gets ripped for it. Redicules!11111!11!1

HAT
11-23-2011, 08:35 AM
Actually, he's been doing it since pre-season.

Tebow hasn't been starting that long....I'm saying that John has really stepped up his game GM'ing by ripping Tebow a new one after every start.

It's really turned the franchise around in the short term.
Hope he keeps it up.

SureShot
11-23-2011, 08:35 AM
You know that is damn fine point. Really never even framed it that way. ppreciate that, God Bless









I am being serious too by the way. Although fans were created by Elway because of his play in the NFL, Tebow is mostly because of college and his 100% sincere and honest character. There is a difference but still a valid point.

Actually any fan that came on board after 1960 is a bandwagon fan. I understand the frustration with the bible belt Tebow fan, but maybe just maybe some also have seen this guy more than we have as well and further along in their personal decision process.

HAT
11-23-2011, 08:38 AM
Actually any fan that came on board after 1960 is a bandwagon fan. I understand the frustration with the bible belt Tebow fan, but maybe just maybe some also have seen this guy more than we have as well and further along in their personal decision process.

The problem is now we have the inernetz.....The OG broncos fans didn't have to read drivel from Elway's ball washers back in the day.

Shotgun Willie
11-23-2011, 08:39 AM
Actually any fan that came on board after 1960 is a bandwagon fan.

Bandwagon fans would've bailed at some point in the last 10 years. Definitely in the last 2. Anyone that was here before McD and is still here is a true fan IMO.

theAPAOps5
11-23-2011, 08:40 AM
Actually any fan that came on board after 1960 is a bandwagon fan. I understand the frustration with the bible belt Tebow fan, but maybe just maybe some also have seen this guy more than we have as well and further along in their personal decision process.

You may be misunderstanding my use of bandwagon fan. Nobody is a bandwagon fan who chooses to root for a certain team. It is those fans who root for a team for the sole reason of one person. That guy switches teams so do they.

These may be but a small fan base but I have a feeling they are one of the loudest.

Shotgun Willie
11-23-2011, 08:42 AM
Eric Decker needs to start catching the ball on third down when the ball hits him in the hands. I'm not convinced that he will be a WR in Denver next season.

I know this is a joke, but based on recent history, he will be gone soon. We seem to have gotten into the habit of trading our best receivers for one reason or another.

SureShot
11-23-2011, 08:42 AM
You may be misunderstanding my use of bandwagon fan. Nobody is a bandwagon fan who chooses to root for a certain team. It is those fans who root for a team for the sole reason of one person. That guy switches teams so do they.

These may be but a small fan base but I have a feeling they are one of the loudest.

I am not a fan of the Orangemane I am here because of APAOps.

theAPAOps5
11-23-2011, 08:42 AM
The problem is now we have the inernetz.....The OG broncos fans didn't have to read drivel from Elway's ball washers back in the day.

Another valid point. I can't imagine what the Orange Mane would have been like during the years prior to Elway and Company winning two Super Bowls. When Elway had his up and downs.

It is easy to look back in hind sight and see the entire picture but what would have been said in his early years or during those horrible Super Bowl losses.

Man if I only had a Flux Capacitor and the ability to create the internets 20 years ago.

theAPAOps5
11-23-2011, 08:43 AM
I am not a fan of the Orangemane I am here because of APAOps.

I will grant you this pass one time because of the extraordinary nature of this reason.

jhns
11-23-2011, 08:43 AM
Bandwagon fans would've bailed at some point in the last 10 years. Definitely in the last 2. Anyone that was here before McD and is still here is a true fan IMO.

So that rules you out.

Shotgun Willie
11-23-2011, 08:44 AM
So that rules you out.

I'm still in your head!

jhns
11-23-2011, 08:47 AM
I'm still in your head!

You should put some clothes on while your up there.

You bandwagon fans are annoying.

DarkHorse30
11-23-2011, 08:47 AM
http://sports.excite.com/news/11232011/v9670.html

interesting quote at the end:

Elway doesn't have to like it, but he has to learn to keep quiet. Or better still, say a few nice things about his QB and the surprising run his team is on, and even less about the college quarterbacks he's still scouting. On top of that, Tebow's rookie deal still has three years to run, and even if Denver settles on another starter, his skill set might still come in handy on more than a few occasions.

Besides, if Elway's standard for a franchise QB continues to be measured less by success than the beauty of the throwing motion, he's never going to get very far from that mirror.

colonelbeef
11-23-2011, 08:56 AM
Don't be stupid enough to tell John Elway how to gauge QB play.

Shotgun Willie
11-23-2011, 08:56 AM
You should put some clothes on while your up there.



jhns fantasizes about me naked......color me shocked.

jhns
11-23-2011, 08:58 AM
Don't be stupid enough to tell John Elway how to gauge QB play.

Many have already proven to be smarter than him in this area.

go_broncos
11-23-2011, 09:10 AM
I never seen any VP criticizing the QB every ****ing week..

orangenblue
11-23-2011, 09:10 AM
Tebow bucking ALL his critics one game at a time.

http://bit.ly/jWV7tK

Tebow doesn't win the Dolphins game or the Jets game without a TON of help from his defense and an onside kick recovery.

Give it time. NFL defensive coordinators will figure this out and and stop him cold, just like the Jets did for 58 mins.

jhns
11-23-2011, 09:12 AM
Tebow doesn't win the Dolphins game or the Jets game without a TON of help from his defense and an onside kick recovery.

Give it time. NFL defensive coordinators will figure this out and and stop him cold, just like the Jets did for 58 mins.

This is said before every game. Tebow keeps laughing at you haters. You will just have to deal with this team winning for now.

orangenblue
11-23-2011, 09:15 AM
Don't be stupid enough to tell John Elway how to gauge QB play.

No kidding. Sheesh.... Arguably the best QB of all time. Took his team to 3 Super Bowls they don't even get close to without him. I'd be surprise if there were any pro bowlers on those teams and unlike Montana he had no hall of fame players on his squad.

orangenblue
11-23-2011, 09:16 AM
This is said before every game. Tebow keeps laughing at you haters. You will just have to deal with this team winning for now.

key phrase "winning for now"

Smiling Assassin27
11-23-2011, 09:21 AM
Tebow doesn't win the Dolphins game or the Jets game without a TON of help from his defense and an onside kick recovery.

Give it time. NFL defensive coordinators will figure this out and and stop him cold, just like the Jets did for 58 mins.

This assumes he gets no better as a passer. Bad assumption, IMO.

MplsBronco
11-23-2011, 09:23 AM
No kidding. Sheesh.... Arguably the best QB of all time. Took his team to 3 Super Bowls they don't even get close to without him. I'd be surprise if there were any pro bowlers on those teams and unlike Montana he had no hall of fame players on his squad.

Yeah because Jordan and Isiah Thomas have had great success as basketball execs. Jordan the greatest of alltime.

Matt Millen had a hell of a career. How did he turn out.

I don't know the numbers, but I am guessing the vast majority of successful GMs were NOT former players.\

Elway has a TON to prove in his new role. Nothing should be assumed simply from his playing career. The stupidity marches on.

Even my wife sees something special in Tebow and she doesn't watch football!

MplsBronco
11-23-2011, 09:29 AM
Back to this thought that because Elway was great he knows how to evaluate QBs by default.

What other former greats in any sport have been a raving success as an exec? Jerry West....

Maybe Elway is flawed in his evaluation because his expectations are related to his playing career? What if he can't rationally evaluate the position because he compares all QBs to himself? He will be on an endless chase if this is how it goes.

BroncoBeavis
11-23-2011, 09:31 AM
Don't be stupid enough to tell John Elway how to gauge QB play.

I think a lot of the problem is the time-tested "know-it-all vs the young-punk" paradigm where Elway's judging Tebow based on who Elway was at the end of his career instead of him remembering back to when he was himself a rookie.

He'd better learn his lesson sooner or later. Any front office/coach that can't put up with QB growing pains better than this is NEVER going to develop a championship caliber QB, no matter who it is. Not to mention the kid's 4-1. Cutting him some slack at this point should be EASY.

MplsBronco
11-23-2011, 09:36 AM
I think a lot of the problem is the time-tested "know-it-all vs the young-punk" paradigm where Elway's judging Tebow based on who Elway was at the end of his career instead of him remembering back to when he was himself a rookie.

He'd better learn his lesson sooner or later. Any front office/coach that can't put up with QB growing pains better than this is NEVER going to develop a championship caliber QB, no matter who it is. Not to mention the kid's 4-1. Cutting him some slack at this point should be EASY.

Exactly, and I what I don't get, but may very well be the case, is how Elway doesn't absolutely love Tebow for his knack of playing in the clutch. That was Elway's entire MO. The competitiveness, the drive, the ice in the veins, how is Elway not drooling all over the prospect of having Tebow lead this team?

ColoradoDarin
11-23-2011, 09:36 AM
Back to this thought that because Elway was great he knows how to evaluate QBs by default.

What other former greats in any sport have been a raving success as an exec? Jerry West....

Maybe Elway is flawed in his evaluation because his expectations are related to his playing career? What if he can't rationally evaluate the position because he compares all QBs to himself? He will be on an endless chase if this is how it goes.

Actually I remember Elway saying when he was hired that he is probably better suited to look at D players because that's what he had to study when he was playing to beat them and that he probably wasn't a great evaluator of QBs.

jhns
11-23-2011, 09:56 AM
key phrase "winning for now"

Key phrase "winning".

Sorry it is so hard on you.

ScottXray
11-23-2011, 09:57 AM
You may be misunderstanding my use of bandwagon fan. Nobody is a bandwagon fan who chooses to root for a certain team. It is those fans who root for a team for the sole reason of one person. That guy switches teams so do they.

These may be but a small fan base but I have a feeling they are one of the loudest.

True...but also sometimes one player makes a fan grow loyal of that team. Many posters here have said they became a fan of the Broncos after watching Elway play...and they are still here now. All relationships change over time. Fans can become Team fans over time.

While many of the people that have been following the Broncos only because of Tebow can be annoying, it doesn't mean that they can't grow to love the team also . They probably won't leave the Broncos unless the Team dumps him, which would probably be a HUGE mistake at this point.

oubronco
11-23-2011, 10:06 AM
http://28.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lhfjkot6cC1qf4k6uo1_500.gif

Mile High Mojoe
11-23-2011, 10:06 AM
http://gifsoup.com/imager.php?id=2325596&t=o (http://gifsoup.com/view/2325596/make-it-stop.html)

Just can't help but be a wet blanket can ya Popps?

RaiderH8r
11-23-2011, 10:06 AM
I'm willing to bet almost half all Bronco fans are fans because of John Elway.

:strong:

Agamemnon
11-23-2011, 10:09 AM
Can we just wait and see with the guy? Is that too much to ask? I'm tired of people saying he is or isn't the answer. Very few QB's have ever shown what they would ultimately be or not be in eight starts. Just let the guy develop for a couple years and then decide. This applies to everyone, especially Elway. Elway more than anyone should know that becoming an NFL QB is not a quick or easy process, and that it can be very ugly at times.

Mile High Mojoe
11-23-2011, 10:11 AM
Can we just wait and see with the guy? Is that too much to ask? I'm tired of people saying he is or isn't the answer. Very few QB's have ever shown what they would ultimately be or not be in eight starts. Just let the guy develop for a couple years and then decide. This applies to everyone, especially Elway. Elway more than anyone should know that becoming an NFL QB is not a quick or easy process, and that it can be very ugly at times.

Best post on the thread.

RaiderH8r
11-23-2011, 10:13 AM
Can we just wait and see with the guy? Is that too much to ask? I'm tired of people saying he is or isn't the answer. Very few QB's have ever shown what they would ultimately be or not be in eight starts. Just let the guy develop for a couple years and then decide. This applies to everyone, especially Elway. Elway more than anyone should know that becoming an NFL QB is not a quick or easy process, and that it can be very ugly at times.

No Super Bowl this year=Tebow is teh Bustorz

Bronco Vixen
11-23-2011, 10:30 AM
Great article.

"I think obviously he's making progress week in and week out. (But) When you look at our third-down numbers, those have to improve. I mean, that's the bottom line. We can't go 3-for-13 and win a world championship. Those are the type of things we have to keep improving."

This was such a ridiculous statement in so many ways as you aptly point out. To me it exposes many asinine assumptions/expectations being made right now a) that Tebow is solely responsible for the piss poor 3rd down conversion rate (which incidentally was not stellar prior to his starting but there were no weekly statements that we haven't found our QB when Orton was playing) b) that the current play of an essentially rookie QB is being judged according to world championship standards.

I'm not buying this honesty/transparency stuff either. It's SELECTIVE transparency and honesty. There was little honesty/transparency/weekly detailed commentary with the make-believe QB competition and ultimate decision to start Orton, with the whole Orton Miami trade soap opera, with the admission that perhaps 8 ball did not give us the best chance to win, the BL trade, and quite frankly with this current decision to waive a viable backup QB at this point in the season for whom we may not get compensation.

Why is the "honesty/transparency" card selectively played toward Tebow and focused solely on his negatives. WHY CAN'T HE BE GIVEN THE COURTESY TO DEVELOP IN PEACE?

"Whoa, John. You're 5-5. Who's talking about a World Championship? That hasn't happened in 13 years, when you last took a snap (not to mention it took you 15 years AND A LEAGUE MVP/POTENTIAL FUTURE HOFer RBto win a championship yourself)."

NFLBRONCO
11-23-2011, 10:40 AM
I bet that article would be different if he goes 0-4 in the next month. Tebow is 4-1 but, 6 games need to be played.

Agamemnon
11-23-2011, 10:44 AM
Great article.

"I think obviously he's making progress week in and week out. (But) When you look at our third-down numbers, those have to improve. I mean, that's the bottom line. We can't go 3-for-13 and win a world championship. Those are the type of things we have to keep improving."

This was such a ridiculous statement in so many ways as you aptly point out. To me it exposes many asinine assumptions/expectations being made right now a) that Tebow is solely responsible for the piss poor 3rd down conversion rate (which incidentally was not stellar prior to his starting but there were no weekly statements that we haven't found our QB when Orton was playing) b) that the current play of an essentially rookie QB is being judged according to world championship standards.

I'm not buying this honesty/transparency stuff either. It's SELECTIVE transparency and honesty. There was little honesty/transparency/weekly detailed commentary with the make-believe QB competition and ultimate decision to start Orton, with the whole Orton Miami trade soap opera, with the admission that perhaps 8 ball did not give us the best chance to win, the BL trade, and quite frankly with this current decision to waive a viable backup QB at this point in the season for whom we may not get compensation.

Why is the "honesty/transparency" card selectively played toward Tebow and focused solely on his negatives. WHY CAN'T HE BE GIVEN THE COURTESY TO DEVELOP IN PEACE?

"Whoa, John. You're 5-5. Who's talking about a World Championship? That hasn't happened in 13 years, when you last took a snap (not to mention it took you 15 years AND A LEAGUE MVP/POTENTIAL FUTURE HOFer RBto win a championship yourself)."

Yeah the "this isn't good enough to win a Super Bowl" crap is outright retarded right now. There's no other way to put it...

Mile High Mojoe
11-23-2011, 10:46 AM
I bet that article would be different if he goes 0-4 in the next month. Tebow is 4-1 but, 6 games need to be played.

http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h318/gomilehigh/negative-people1.jpg

Agamemnon
11-23-2011, 10:49 AM
I bet that article would be different if he goes 0-4 in the next month. Tebow is 4-1 but, 6 games need to be played.

::)

Lolad
11-23-2011, 11:18 AM
Is going 3-and-13 in 3rd-down conversions really keeping you up at night? In the NFL, converting 50 percent of 3rd-down conversions are considered great. That's just 3-4 more first downs. Maybe if Mike McCoy didn't call running plays on 3rd-and-six and 3rd-and-seven, the rate would be higher.

Nobody talks about this, but you can't talk about 3rd down numbers when you are running draw plays on consecutive 3rd and 7 situations

jhns
11-23-2011, 11:52 AM
Great article.

"I think obviously he's making progress week in and week out. (But) When you look at our third-down numbers, those have to improve. I mean, that's the bottom line. We can't go 3-for-13 and win a world championship. Those are the type of things we have to keep improving."

This was such a ridiculous statement in so many ways as you aptly point out. To me it exposes many asinine assumptions/expectations being made right now a) that Tebow is solely responsible for the piss poor 3rd down conversion rate (which incidentally was not stellar prior to his starting but there were no weekly statements that we haven't found our QB when Orton was playing) b) that the current play of an essentially rookie QB is being judged according to world championship standards.

I'm not buying this honesty/transparency stuff either. It's SELECTIVE transparency and honesty. There was little honesty/transparency/weekly detailed commentary with the make-believe QB competition and ultimate decision to start Orton, with the whole Orton Miami trade soap opera, with the admission that perhaps 8 ball did not give us the best chance to win, the BL trade, and quite frankly with this current decision to waive a viable backup QB at this point in the season for whom we may not get compensation.

Why is the "honesty/transparency" card selectively played toward Tebow and focused solely on his negatives. WHY CAN'T HE BE GIVEN THE COURTESY TO DEVELOP IN PEACE?

"Whoa, John. You're 5-5. Who's talking about a World Championship? That hasn't happened in 13 years, when you last took a snap (not to mention it took you 15 years AND A LEAGUE MVP/POTENTIAL FUTURE HOFer RBto win a championship yourself)."

This.

/thread



1-4 with your best chance to win, Elway. You should critisize yourself. You aren't even doing your job at a competent level, let alone championship level.

HorseHead
11-23-2011, 03:34 PM
I am down like four flat tires with this article...

enjolras
11-23-2011, 03:38 PM
I hate our new fans.. I really do.

John Elway went to 5 superbowls. I think he has a clue about what it takes to win Championships in this league.

Agamemnon
11-23-2011, 04:27 PM
I hate our new fans.. I really do.

John Elway went to 5 superbowls. I think he has a clue about what it takes to win Championships in this league.

I hate blind followers who think a guy winning some Super Bowls as a player has anything to do with his qualifications to run a franchise...

TonyR
11-23-2011, 04:31 PM
Nobody talks about this, but you can't talk about 3rd down numbers when you are running draw plays on consecutive 3rd and 7 situations

As I mentioned in the podcast thread, while what you are saying is fair it's also fair to point out that the offense has to avoid getting into those 3rd and long situations in the first place. Which means doing better on 1st and/or 2nd down.

fontaine
11-23-2011, 04:34 PM
I hate blind followers who think a guy winning some Super Bowls as a player has anything to do with his qualifications to run a franchise...

Cool, somebody hates everybody and everybody hates somebody.

This must be the little known Tebow affect.

Agamemnon
11-23-2011, 04:38 PM
Cool, somebody hates everybody and everybody hates somebody.

This must be the little known Tebow affect.

Maybe the word hate is too strong. I find it pretty annoying though. I find cronyism annoying in general though...

Inkana7
11-23-2011, 05:14 PM
Is going 3-and-13 in 3rd-down conversions really keeping you up at night? In the NFL, converting 50 percent of 3rd-down conversions are considered great. That's just 3-4 more first downs. Maybe if Mike McCoy didn't call running plays on 3rd-and-six and 3rd-and-seven, the rate would be higher.

Nobody talks about this, but you can't talk about 3rd down numbers when you are running draw plays on consecutive 3rd and 7 situations

3-9-NYJ 29
(10:37) (Shotgun) 15-T.Tebow pass short right to 37-J.Johnson to NYJ 21 for 8 yards (97-C.Pace).

3-11-NYJ 40
(10:29) (Shotgun) 15-T.Tebow pass short right to 19-E.Royal to NYJ 38 for 2 yards (36-J.Leonhard)

3-10-NYJ 48
(6:42) (Shotgun) 15-T.Tebow pass incomplete short left to 86-D.Fells

3-6-DEN 42
(1:52) (Shotgun) 15-T.Tebow pass short left to 19-E.Royal to DEN 47 for 5 yards (20-K.Wilson)

3-7-DEN 46
(7:57) (Shotgun) 15-T.Tebow pass incomplete deep middle to 87-E.Decker.

3-10-NYJ 49
(5:39) (Shotgun) 15-T.Tebow pass incomplete short right to 88-D.Thomas.

3-11-NYJ 43
(3:29) (Shotgun) 15-T.Tebow pass incomplete deep right to 35-L.Ball.

3-7-DEN 21
(:03) (Shotgun) 15-T.Tebow pass incomplete short left to 87-E.Decker [52-D.Harris].

Right.

BroncoBeavis
11-23-2011, 05:27 PM
3-9-NYJ 29
(10:37) (Shotgun) 15-T.Tebow pass short right to 37-J.Johnson to NYJ 21 for 8 yards (97-C.Pace).

8 yard route on 3rd and 9. Hardly the QB's fault.

3-11-NYJ 40
(10:29) (Shotgun) 15-T.Tebow pass short right to 19-E.Royal to NYJ 38 for 2 yards (36-J.Leonhard)

Wasn't that a shovel pass? If it was....on 3rd and 11? Nuff said.


3-6-DEN 42
(1:52) (Shotgun) 15-T.Tebow pass short left to 19-E.Royal to DEN 47 for 5 yards (20-K.Wilson)

Another 5 yard route on 3rd and 6? All on Tebow?


Plus if you take all the plays you selected and average the yards needed, the average was 3rd and 9. Meaning the Broncos went (on average) 1 yard on 1st and 2nd down in the scenarios you selected.

I'd argue the problem has more to do with the early plays than 3rd down.

Inkana7
11-23-2011, 05:35 PM
I'd argue the problem has more to do with the early plays than 3rd down.

And the QB has nothing to do with that??

Listen, when Orton was the QB he got no excuses for poor 3rd Down performance, even though the offense was converting more 3rd downs with him than with Tebow.

The offense is not powering this winning streak, the defense is, and Tebow, while winning games and being fun to watch, has not proven that he is the "answer." 3-and-outs are up and scoring is down from before Orton. That's a fact (If MHR's tweets from a few nights ago are to be trusted). However, the defense is playing absolutely lights out and are keeping the game close enough to win, which is where Tebow's intangibles take over. That's not going to be good enough, though.

Inkana7
11-23-2011, 05:38 PM
8 yard route on 3rd and 9. Hardly the QB's fault.
This was a swing pass that Johnson turned into an 8 yard gain. It was Tebow's choice to throw the short route.



Wasn't that a shovel pass? If it was....on 3rd and 11? Nuff said.
I don't remember this play so I don't know. But we had run a successful shovel pass on the 1st drive.



Another 5 yard route on 3rd and 6? All on Tebow?
Royal did run this route short, but Tebow, IIRC, also underthrew it a bit.

BroncoBeavis
11-23-2011, 05:46 PM
And the QB has nothing to do with that??

If the sequence was Run Run Pass, as we've seen far too much of... then correct... Tebow has pretty much nothing to do with that.

I know Tebow needs to improve. But to help that along, you need to pass sometimes when the defense thinks you might run. Forcing a young QB to make all of his (infrequent) passes into a nickel package on 3rd and long is asking for trouble.

RMT
11-23-2011, 06:20 PM
just playing devil's advocate here ... and throwing out some statistics to ponder ...

Denver is #26 in 3rd down conversion percentage
San Fran? #27 (even with MORE attempts than the Broncos)
Lions are #31 ...

torture numbers long enough and they will confess to ANYTHING.

Elway's condemnation of the offense for its low 3rd down conversion percentage is somewhat justified - but saying that it "doesn't win championships" is above and beyond the scope of this year's team. It's trying to compete for a playoff spot - not a title. Give the offense and the team a chance to improve. It's unreasonable to go from last place to a title in one season. Good grief.

epicSocialism4tw
11-23-2011, 06:25 PM
Great article.

"I think obviously he's making progress week in and week out. (But) When you look at our third-down numbers, those have to improve. I mean, that's the bottom line. We can't go 3-for-13 and win a world championship. Those are the type of things we have to keep improving."

This was such a ridiculous statement in so many ways as you aptly point out. To me it exposes many asinine assumptions/expectations being made right now a) that Tebow is solely responsible for the piss poor 3rd down conversion rate (which incidentally was not stellar prior to his starting but there were no weekly statements that we haven't found our QB when Orton was playing) b) that the current play of an essentially rookie QB is being judged according to world championship standards.

I'm not buying this honesty/transparency stuff either. It's SELECTIVE transparency and honesty. There was little honesty/transparency/weekly detailed commentary with the make-believe QB competition and ultimate decision to start Orton, with the whole Orton Miami trade soap opera, with the admission that perhaps 8 ball did not give us the best chance to win, the BL trade, and quite frankly with this current decision to waive a viable backup QB at this point in the season for whom we may not get compensation.

Why is the "honesty/transparency" card selectively played toward Tebow and focused solely on his negatives. WHY CAN'T HE BE GIVEN THE COURTESY TO DEVELOP IN PEACE?

"Whoa, John. You're 5-5. Who's talking about a World Championship? That hasn't happened in 13 years, when you last took a snap (not to mention it took you 15 years AND A LEAGUE MVP/POTENTIAL FUTURE HOFer RBto win a championship yourself)."

This post pwns.

You all got out-posted by a girl.

errand
11-23-2011, 06:25 PM
Tebow has to improve his game to be the long term solution at QB. I think that he probably will, but it is certainly not guaranteed at this point. It is just as silly to say that he is our long term answer, as it is to say he can't play in the league.

Exactly..I said long before the season that we could win with him. But I'm called a hater because I said he needs to improve on his footwork, reads and accuracy, and learn to make plays from pocket.

Now those who say he can't win at all, sure...they are probably just hating on the guy, but to say he needs to improve this or that, doesn't mean you hate the guy...well, let me rephrase....on most logically based websites it wouldn't mean you hate they guy....but the mane is what it is, i guess

epicSocialism4tw
11-23-2011, 06:26 PM
I bet that article would be different if he goes 0-4 in the next month. Tebow is 4-1 but, 6 games need to be played.

If Tebow doesn't win another game, his debut has already exceeded expectations.

theAPAOps5
11-23-2011, 06:28 PM
If Tebow doesn't win another game, his debut has already exceeded expectations.

:spit: maybe to us but not the national media

While pretty awesome it will be slammed as a failure if they lose out.

epicSocialism4tw
11-23-2011, 06:29 PM
just playing devil's advocate here ... and throwing out some statistics to ponder ...

Denver is #26 in 3rd down conversion percentage
San Fran? #27 (even with MORE attempts that the Broncos)
Lions are #31 ...

torture numbers long enough and they will confess to ANYTHING.

Elway's condemnation of the offense for it's low 3rd down conversion percentage is somewhat justified - but saying that it "doesn't win championships" is above and beyond the scope of this year's team. It's trying to compete for a playoff spot - not a title. Give the offense and the team a chance to improve. It's unreasonable to go from last place to a title in one season. Good grief.

Yeah, I don't know when we took the leap from second-to-worst team in the league to championship-calibur. Yikes!

Elway needs to step into reality here.

RMT
11-23-2011, 06:31 PM
If Tebow doesn't win another game, his debut has already exceeded expectations.

This.

People forget that it took Steve Young SEVEN (as in 7) years before he made any noise as a QB. I'm not comparing Tebow to Young but holy crap, the guy's is just in his 2nd year and without the luxury of a normal offseason no less.

theAPAOps5
11-23-2011, 06:32 PM
This.

People forget that it took Steve Young SEVEN (as in 7) years before he made any noise as a QB. I'm not comparing Tebow to Young but holy crap, the guy's is just in his 2nd year and without the luxury of a normal offseason no less.

Tebow was sitting behind a HOF QB?

epicSocialism4tw
11-23-2011, 06:33 PM
This.

People forget that it took Steve Young SEVEN (as in 7) years before he made any noise as a QB. I'm not comparing Tebow to Young but holy crap, the guy's is just in his 2nd year and without the luxury of a normal offseason no less.

Tebow is the most hypercriticized QB in the history of the NFL, and its not even close.

RMT
11-23-2011, 06:33 PM
Yeah, I don't know when we took the leap from second-to-worst team in the league to championship-calibur. Yikes!

Elway needs to step into reality here.

This is just me talking here - but it would appear that Elway is planting unreasonable expectations on Tebow and the rest of the team to justify any potential roster/draft moves that would possibly impact our QB position. Very unfair. The team is overachieving right now and Tebow (while winning ugly at times) is a QB the players rally around. What teammates say about Tebow has been very positive - they believe in him and what the TEAM is accomplishing. This weekend will be a tough test. At least the team is competitive each week.

RaiderH8r
11-23-2011, 06:34 PM
It is encouraging that John recognizes that Tim has taken this team from a laughing stock to a Super Bowl contender. We should be right in the discussion with GB. Thanks John. We've gone from suck for luck to contenders in 5 games. Pretty sweet right there.

epicSocialism4tw
11-23-2011, 06:37 PM
This is just me talking here - but it would appear that Elway is planting unreasonable expectations on Tebow and the rest of the team to justify any potential roster/draft moves that would possibly impact our QB position. Very unfari.

I want to say that he's just trying to establish a lofty standard.

But if he's not willing to change his approach due to changing circumstances (Tebow literally turning the franchise around), then I don't see much reason to trust his vision for the team.

He scouted Blaine Gabbert last year and gushed about the guy, it was even being rumored that the Broncos would draft him. Gabbert's about as good as Jamarcus Russel at this point. I'm not sure that Elway knows what the heck he's talking about as a manager.

theAPAOps5
11-23-2011, 06:38 PM
This is just me talking here - but it would appear that Elway is planting unreasonable expectations on Tebow and the rest of the team to justify any potential roster/draft moves that would possibly impact our QB position. Very unfari.

What expectations appear to be set here and what evidence do you have? Is it getting better on 3rd down or continuing to improve? I mean those are pretty hard to meet.

I think Elway is keeping a certain amount of distance from Tebow on purpose but if is team makes the playoffs or he'll finishes 8-8 he is plain crazy to abandoned the process.

The team is drafting a QB regardless so don't be surprised. Ere is only one QB on the roster under contract after this year.

epicSocialism4tw
11-23-2011, 06:39 PM
What expectations appear to be set here and what evidence do you have? Is it getting better on 3rd down or continuing to improve? I mean those are pretty hard to meet.

I think Elway is keeping a certain amount of distance from Tebow on purpose but if is team makes the playoffs or he'll finishes 8-8 he is plain crazy to abandoned the process.

The team is drafting a QB regardless so don't be surprised. Ere is only one QB on the roster under contract after this year.

It may not draft a QB. The team just needs one more QB. Tebow and Weber are here. They need a vet behind Tebow and thats it.

RMT
11-23-2011, 06:42 PM
Tebow was sitting behind a HOF QB?

He wasn't when he was in Tampa Bay and he was such a "great QB" that they traded him.

theAPAOps5
11-23-2011, 06:42 PM
So Elway is not sure what he is talking about as a manager because of one position! You guys are looney tunes (by you guys I really mean Drama Llama). Let's ignore the other pieces that are helping this team improve. It's all about Tebow and the QB nothing else is Elways doing.

theAPAOps5
11-23-2011, 06:43 PM
He wasn't in Tampa Bay and he was such a "great QB" that they traded him.

Touchť

errand
11-23-2011, 06:43 PM
Jags were 3-6 in '96 then won 6 of last 7 and made it all the way to AFCCG...

Chargers were 4-8, won their final 4 to win AFCW at 8-8...

So for Bronco Vixen to rip Elway about the playoffs like she's Jim Mora talking to a reporter is pretty ignorant. I mean afterall, don't we have the NFL's greatest player with 8 career starts playing QB for us?

and seriously lady, you really wanna b**** about it taking elway 15 years to win a title? some teams have never played for one, let alone won one. and i'm sure you know that he helped us make wildcard round as a rookie in '83...and we won AFC West the following year at 13-3....and after an 11-5 non-playoff year in '85, led us to 3 SB's in 4 seasons, so please...a little respect.

errand
11-23-2011, 06:44 PM
If Tebow doesn't win another game, his debut has already exceeded expectations.

If he never wins another game this year...ok. but if he never wins another game, he'll be a very huge bust

RMT
11-23-2011, 06:47 PM
So Elway is not sure what he is talking about as a manager because of one position! You guys are looney tunes (by you guys I really mean Drama Llama). Let's ignore the other pieces that are helping this team improve. It's all about Tebow and the QB nothing else is Elways doing.

Nah - you're missing the point ... the problem is that when things don't go well, people will dog Tebow first and foremost ... he's getting a tremendously disproportionate amount of credit for winning and to an extent people are implying that the team is winning in SPITE of Tebow. And he'll be vilified when the team doesn't do well - and he's taken things all in stride. He's become one of the most scrutinzed players in the NFL and all because he wins in spite of his shortcomings. Sure, give the defense credit but I don't recall a lot of turnover on the defensive side of the ball between the start of the season and the past five games. The TEAM is playing better.

Two things the teams IS doing better now with Tebow at QB is having a better time of possession average and winning the turnover battle. Granted, Tebow doesn't throw the ball much but he doesn't throw picks either.

errand
11-23-2011, 06:51 PM
I hate blind followers who think a guy winning some Super Bowls as a player has anything to do with his qualifications to run a franchise...

...sure just like a guy with 8 starts, and moderate success (5-3 W-L), completes less than 50% of his passes, and converts less than 26% of his 3rd downs warrants no criticism?

epicSocialism4tw
11-23-2011, 06:51 PM
So Elway is not sure what he is talking about as a manager because of one position! You guys are looney tunes (by you guys I really mean Drama Llama). Let's ignore the other pieces that are helping this team improve. It's all about Tebow and the QB nothing else is Elways doing.

I did an Elway report card in another thread.

His management duties extend into other aspects of the team as well, and he has had mixed results for sure.

theAPAOps5
11-23-2011, 06:52 PM
I agree he is getting way too much credit and a lot of criticism. He is helping by managing the game really well. Elway will be crazy to dump him if this continues and they win.

But to question him because of Tebow is foolish because he has also been part of bringing in some serious upgrades at other positions. But that is the case with some of our irrational posters and/or Denver Tebow fans.

errand
11-23-2011, 06:53 PM
Maybe the word hate is too strong. I find it pretty annoying though. I find cronyism annoying in general though...

Really, try being a fan that likes Tebow but hates his nuthugging maniacal fans like yourself? Talk about being annoyed...

theAPAOps5
11-23-2011, 06:53 PM
I did an Elway report card in another thread.

His management duties extend into other aspects of the team as well, and he has had mixed results for sure.

Mixed as in huge hits and some bad misses. Or in other words a typical GM

epicSocialism4tw
11-23-2011, 06:53 PM
I agree he is getting way too much credit and a lot of criticism. He is helping by managing the game really well. Elway will be crazy to dump him if this continues and they win.

But to question him because of Tebow is foolish because he has also been part of bringing in some serious upgrades at other positions. But that is the case with some of our irrational posters and/or Denver Tebow fans.

Yes, he did upgrade one position: QB.

Or was that John Fox?

theAPAOps5
11-23-2011, 06:54 PM
Yes, he did upgrade one position: QB.

Or was that John Fox?

So no single position on defense has been upgraded? So right tackle is not an upgrade?

Now you are just being silly.

epicSocialism4tw
11-23-2011, 06:54 PM
Mixed as in huge hits and some bad misses. Or in other words a rookie VP of Football Operations

Fixed it for ya.

epicSocialism4tw
11-23-2011, 06:55 PM
So no single position on defense has been upgraded? So right tackle is not an upgrade?

Now you are just being silly.

I was just pointing it out that Tebow is an upgrade.

Armchair Bronco
11-23-2011, 06:56 PM
I want to say that he's just trying to establish a lofty standard.

But if he's not willing to change his approach due to changing circumstances (Tebow literally turning the franchise around), then I don't see much reason to trust his vision for the team.

He scouted Blaine Gabbert last year and gushed about the guy, it was even being rumored that the Broncos would draft him. Gabbert's about as good as Jamarcus Russel at this point. I'm not sure that Elway knows what the heck he's talking about as a manager.

Call me "Old School", but I'm afraid that I've already seen enough of Elway to form a long-term opinion about him. He's a tactless GM with no vision who is driven by his own ego. And his ego has blinded him. In this respect, he carries on the grand tradition of Shannyham and McStalin.

theAPAOps5
11-23-2011, 06:56 PM
Fixed it for ya.

Rigggghhhtttt did you ask for a Denver TEBOWS jersey for Christmas. Clearly that is all that matter to you :spit:

theAPAOps5
11-23-2011, 06:57 PM
I was just pointing it out that Tebow is an upgrade.

No you said he upgraded one position. Which is short sided and just down right hilarious

epicSocialism4tw
11-23-2011, 06:58 PM
Rigggghhhtttt did you ask for a Denver TEBOWS jersey for Christmas. Clearly that is all that matter to you

...and that had to do with what aspect of the subject we were discussing?

Maybe you need to open your mind a little bit and quit stereotyping people into these weird little camps.

errand
11-23-2011, 06:58 PM
just playing devil's advocate here ... and throwing out some statistics to ponder ...

Denver is #26 in 3rd down conversion percentage
San Fran? #27 (even with MORE attempts than the Broncos)
Lions are #31 ...



Sure...but you have to admit that these are for the team as a season total...not since the second coming started as our Qb.

Tebow is converting less than 26% of his 3rd downs.....

epicSocialism4tw
11-23-2011, 06:59 PM
No you said he upgraded one position. Which is short sided and just down right hilarious

Okay, you've gone full retard.

I'm out, bro! :notworthy

theAPAOps5
11-23-2011, 06:59 PM
...and that had to do with what aspect of the subject we were discussing?

Maybe you need to open your mind a little bit and quit stereotyping people into these weird little camps.

Clearly you need to look in the mirror and open yours. You know since you think only one position has been upgraded.

RMT
11-23-2011, 06:59 PM
Mixed as in huge hits and some bad misses. Or in other words a typical GM

I agree with what you are saying - what I have a problem with is how Elway says some of the things he says about Tebow/the QB position/and the team, in general ... to me, it appears he holds others to a higher standard than what he holds himself to.

This past summer he said it was a "3 year process" and then this past week he gives Tebow essentially a vote of "no confidence" as a long-term solution because "3 for 13 on 3rd down conversions doesn't win championships" ... really? What happened to the "3 year process"? He really needs to listen to himself talk sometimes and reflect on what he's communicating and how he's communicating it.

To me it's a huge double standard - that's what I have a problem with ...

epicSocialism4tw
11-23-2011, 07:00 PM
Clearly you need to look in the mirror and open yours. You know since you think only one position has been upgraded.

That's not what I was saying, fella...I was making the point that Tebow is an upgrade over Orton.

Inkana7
11-23-2011, 07:00 PM
Call me "Old School", but I'm afraid that I've already seen enough of Elway to form a long-term opinion about him. He's a tactless GM with no vision who is driven by his own ego. And his ego has blinded him. In this respect, he carries on the grand tradition of Shannyham and McStalin.

hahahaha

epicSocialism4tw
11-23-2011, 07:01 PM
I agree with what you are saying - what I have a problem with is how Elway says some of the things he says about Tebow/the QB position/and the team, in general ... to me, it appears he holds others to a higher standard than what he holds himself to.

This past summer he said it was a "3 years process" and then this past week he gives Tebow essentially a vote of "no confidence" as a long-term solution because "3 for 13 on 3rd down conversions doesn't win championships" ... really? What happened to the "3 year process"? He really needs to listen to himself talk sometimes and reflect on what he's communicating and how he's communicating it.

To me it's a huge double standard - that's what I have a problem with ...

He's just trying to protect himself from criticism in the press. He wants to be in with the cool kids.

theAPAOps5
11-23-2011, 07:01 PM
Okay, you've gone full retard.

I'm out, bro! :notworthy

Oh I am sure you will be back soon enough to say more narrow minded and laughable stuff about Elway and the job he has done.

RMT
11-23-2011, 07:03 PM
Sure...but you have to admit that these are for the team as a season total...not since the second coming started as our Qb.

Tebow is converting less than 26% of his 3rd downs.....

San Fran is at 32%
Detroit is at 30%

Not much better ... Jay Cutler and the Bears? 34% and ranked #23.

theAPAOps5
11-23-2011, 07:04 PM
I agree with what you are saying - what I have a problem with is how Elway says some of the things he says about Tebow/the QB position/and the team, in general ... to me, it appears he holds others to a higher standard than what he holds himself to.

This past summer he said it was a "3 years process" and then this past week he gives Tebow essentially a vote of "no confidence" as a long-term solution because "3 for 13 on 3rd down conversions doesn't win championships" ... really? What happened to the "3 year process"? He really needs to listen to himself talk sometimes and reflect on what he's communicating and how he's communicating it.

To me it's a huge double standard - that's what I have a problem with ...

I see your point and this whole transparency thing with a first year executive is not always pretty. I am sure he will learn to speak less and use much safer words.

TDmvp
11-23-2011, 07:04 PM
http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/6096/fullretardb.jpg

any chance to get another use out of that pic is a good thing ...:wiggle:

epicSocialism4tw
11-23-2011, 07:04 PM
Oh I am sure you will be back soon enough to say more narrow minded and laughable stuff about Elway and the job he has done.

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e239/curtcov/burro.gif

theAPAOps5
11-23-2011, 07:05 PM
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e239/curtcov/burro.gif

Great illustration of your posts!

RMT
11-23-2011, 07:10 PM
I see your point and this whole transparency thing with a first year executive is not always pretty. I am sure he will learn to speak less and use much safer words.

I do feel that we diehard fans appreciate the transparency - I think we oftentimes expect Elway to be as skilled in his new role as he was as a QB and that's unrealistic as well. It would be nice, though, if someone would work with him on his management communication skills. They need some work.

errand
11-23-2011, 07:13 PM
Nah - you're missing the point ... the problem is that when things don't go well, people will dog Tebow first and foremost

As they did Orton......

he's getting a tremendously disproportionate amount of credit for winning and to an extent people are implying that the team is winning in SPITE of Tebow.

As they did Orton...however he got zero credit when we won, so little credit in fact that alot on here forget he was our starter when we went 6-0 to start 2009 season.

And he'll be vilified when the team doesn't do well - and he's taken things all in stride.

As was Orton...he too took it in stride

He's become one of the most scrutinzed players in the NFL and all because he wins in spite of his shortcomings.

Yes, he has overcome his short comings by winning 4 games via 4th qtr comebacks...but nobody wants to talk about how his shortcomings helped land us in those 4th qtr deficits to begin with


Sure, give the defense credit but I don't recall a lot of turnover on the defensive side of the ball between the start of the season and the past five games. The TEAM is playing better.

Defense is averaging 7 points less per game allowed these past 5 weeks, and they are giving up only 15.1 ppg in his 4 wins...and they have doubled their QB sacks...8 in B.T., and 19 A.O....huge difference as our secondary doesn't have to cover their man for 7-8 seconds anymore...Doom and DJ returning to health has big impact on this

Two things the teams IS doing better now with Tebow at QB is having a better time of possession average and winning the turnover battle.

they are winning turnover battle...however the TOP argument is a strawman...we average only a mere 2 more minutes TOP with Tebow than we did with Orton..and the opposing teams are running more plays than we are despite that 2 minute increase.

Granted, Tebow doesn't throw the ball much but he doesn't throw picks either.

that's true...his short out throws will rarely be picked off as they're smartly thrown low into the turf...unfortunately they rarely be caught as well.

I've said before we can win with this kid..hell we are winning with him, but to say he's the sole reason we're winning (you clowns know who you are0 is laughable. Who do you think is keeping these games he's won so ****ing close to begin with...the defense...well the defense and Tebow's lack of success converting 3rd downs


In bold

theAPAOps5
11-23-2011, 07:13 PM
I do feel that we diehard fans appreciate the transparency - I think we oftentimes expect Elway to be as skilled in his new role as he was as a QB and that's unrealistic as well. It would be nice, though, if someone would work with him on his management communication skills. They need some work.

I agree with you on that. I also worry his competitive and win at all costs mentality could be a detriment as well, at least if he doesn't channel that drive properly.

So there are concerns but e book is far from written

BroncoBeavis
11-23-2011, 07:15 PM
I read somewhere earlier that Elway went 4 for 19 on 3rd downs in his last AFC Championship against the Jets.

How in the world did we win a championship? :D

errand
11-23-2011, 07:16 PM
San Fran is at 32%
Detroit is at 30%

Not much better ... Jay Cutler and the Bears? 34% and ranked #23.

Ok..now what are their conversion rates in their wins vs their rates in their losses?

epicSocialism4tw
11-23-2011, 07:24 PM
I read somewhere earlier that Elway went 4 for 19 on 3rd downs in his last AFC Championship against the Jets.

How in the world did we win a championship? :D

http://therecordingrevolution.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/the-end1.jpg

theAPAOps5
11-23-2011, 07:25 PM
http://therecordingrevolution.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/the-end1.jpg

Weren't you done?

epicSocialism4tw
11-23-2011, 08:07 PM
Weren't you done?

With our conversation, yes.

BroncoBeavis just pwned, though. It deserves its recognition.

theAPAOps5
11-23-2011, 08:16 PM
With our conversation, yes.

BroncoBeavis just pwned, though. It deserves its recognition.

I must say that was a nice little zinger!

Inkana7
11-23-2011, 08:25 PM
With our conversation, yes.

BroncoBeavis just pwned, though. It deserves its recognition.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anecdotal_evidence

BroncoBeavis
11-23-2011, 08:39 PM
Wasn't my doing. Just repeating what I heard :)

When I get a few minutes I'll post a link to the Broncos forum where the guy was talking about it. He had several other Elway glory years examples of sub 3 for 13 on 3rd down performances.

Bronco Vixen
11-23-2011, 08:46 PM
So for Bronco Vixen to rip Elway about the playoffs like she's Jim Mora talking to a reporter is pretty ignorant.

Ok, first of all...PLAYOFFS? (said in my best Mora imitation) Where in my post did I say anything about PLAYOFFS? So basically calling me ignorant for allegedly ripping Elway about the PLAYOFFS was not only rude and uncalled for but completely unfounded.

and seriously lady, you really wanna b**** about it taking elway 15 years to win a title?

It was ELWAY HIMSELF who threw out winning a title as the standard of judgement for the play of a QB who has played in 8 games, which incidentally I find a bit ironic considering his tweet after the first game of the season when he was singing a decidedly different tune about unfairly judging someone after only one game and how HE HIMSELF would not have fared well if it had been done to him. This to defend a QB who was actually playing in his 30th game, mind you, not his first. But the standards seem to have changed quite dramatically for Tebow. Now all of a sudden at 8 games, world championships are the appropriate measuring stick.

some teams have never played for one, let alone won one.

EXACTLY! Thank you for making my point for me. Given how difficult it is and how few have actually done so, on what planet is that a fair standard to judge a QB after only his 8th start?

No one was b**** about it taking Elway 15 years to win one. The point made in the article (that I was simply emphasizing) was that it IS INDEED a very difficult thing to do, even for a HOFamer like Elway (who I pointed out also had the help of a league MVP RB, unlike Tebow), so again, why is that a fair comparison for an essentially rookie QB?

So in closing: "Don't condescend me, man. I'll ****in' kill ya, man."

RaiderH8r
11-23-2011, 09:21 PM
As far as I'm concerned this team is playing with House money right now and wins are gravy. We need to step back and take a look around at what we expected, where we began the season, what the club accomplished, and the possibilities going forward. Seriously, we were not supposed to win these games. Our problem is that our QB isn't throwing for 250/game with a group of number 2WRs and a number 3? The D is playing tough. Our O is playing tough. We have a shot this week to beat all three division rivals at their own houses. FFS people, let's get some perspective here. Was a time pulling off the feat of walking into the houses of our rivals, eating their food, pissing on the couch, and taking their women home with us would have been cause for universal celebration. Man, we roll Phyllis and crew this Sunday I am going to be one very happy camper.

All of the progress we made isn't solely due to Tebow but nobody can deny that the change in attitude and toughness in this club coincided with Tebow getting the nod. He is universally regarded as a high class, inspirational leader on the field. Hell, Von Miller and Champ are ready to ride or die with the guy. It is one thing to play the game it is another to have a guy out there that makes everyone around him inspired to run through a brick wall to back him up and that's what I think we're seeing here. Flame on with stats and crap but all I know is we are 4-1 and playing MEANINGFUL football after Thanksgiving. Show of hands, who had this as a possibility going into this season? Anybody? I see you over there with your hand up and I call bull****.

Everybody relax a bit...and give thanks for competitive Broncos football. BAM!

If anybody has John's email address you can send this on to him too.

RMT
11-23-2011, 09:46 PM
Ok..now what are their conversion rates in their wins vs their rates in their losses?

so, now it's not enough that those are a team's 3rd down conversion rates ... now we have to break it down by conversion rates in "wins" vs "losses"?

that's someone who prefers grasping at straws until he/she finds the "right straw" ... pathetic.

BroncoBeavis
11-23-2011, 10:51 PM
Ok..now what are their conversion rates in their wins vs their rates in their losses?

The Niners are 9-1. What could that breakdown possibly look like?

AlphaSeirra
11-24-2011, 07:26 AM
I just can't imagine it being any simpler than that.

Sure, but you never mind it when Tebow is getting dissed on,
you only seem to mind when someone defends Tim using actual facts. :wave:

carry on :yayaya:

AlphaSeirra
11-24-2011, 07:36 AM
"Whoa, John. You're 5-5. Who's talking about a World Championship? That hasn't happened in 13 years, when you last
took a snap (not to mention it took you 15 years to win a championship yourself)."

"Let's put this in perspective. Before you finally let fan pressure get the best of you (or maybe it was because you finally
realized the Broncos stunk with Orton), your team was 1-4 and dead last in the AFC West. Since inserting the "flawed"
Tebow as your starter, your team has gone 4-1 including 3 road wins for a 5-5 record and 2ndplace in the West, just a
game out of first."

Has this Tom Mackie guy been reading & stealing my stuff? ;)

Anyway, he's another one with his head on straight and his eyes wide open....:welcome:

CEH
11-24-2011, 08:41 AM
I read somewhere earlier that Elway went 4 for 19 on 3rd downs in his last AFC Championship against the Jets.

How in the world did we win a championship? :D


And Tebow is 6 for 43 on 3rd down. 13.95 %. .

oubronco
11-24-2011, 08:53 AM
And Tebow is 6 for 43 on 3rd down. 13.95 %. ..

Gort
11-24-2011, 09:01 AM
there's no point debating Tebow anymore.

the arguments have become dishonest on both sides. the anti-Tebow crowd creates strawman arguments that don't match what the pro-Tebow crowd is arguing, and vice-versa.

i honestly don't care anymore why people support or don't support Tebow.

these arguments no longer have anything to do with him and are now just proxy arguments for something else.

my only strong opinion is that i would be very disappointed if out current coaching staff and front office was unable to see past the silly bigotries on parade against Tebow (can't throw, doesn't belong in NFL, etc.) and decided to give up on him and restart the QB search all over again. that bothers my sense of "fairness". Tebow is showing us he's got something very few others have and i'd hate to see some other team discover that he really has a future in this league after we've discarded him.

ultimately though, i just want us to be a dominant franchise again. if Elway and Fox insist on going a different direction, they'd better be right, because 10 more years of wandering in the wilderness while searching for the "next Elway" every draft is not going to make this fanbase any happier.

Broncos4tw
11-24-2011, 09:09 AM
It's not rocket surgery. If Tebow plays as he is playing right now through the end of the year, he isn't our answer at QB. If he improves his passing game, especially on third downs, he may well our future.

I'm all for giving him his chance, and am thrilled he is getting the rest of the season to see what he can do. As it stands though, if a decision had to be made today, he is not our future. His dismal 3rd down #s.. which are THE key to winning games, are not even close to cutting it. Even if you remove all the "dropped passes" (many of which were under or overthrown), he still is not even close to being where he needs to be.

I hope he improves, but I am not blind to the fact that he may not. What we are seeing may be what we get. If so, he is not the answer.

Gort
11-24-2011, 09:47 AM
in an attempt to have an honest argument, here's how i would respond as a 34+ year Broncos fan and Tebow supporter.

It's not rocket surgery. If Tebow plays as he is playing right now through the end of the year, he isn't our answer at QB. If he improves his passing game, especially on third downs, he may well our future.

he's a young QB. the system they are using right now is not designed to improve his ability as a passer. so if that's the metric, then i would say it's an unfair one. the guy deserves as much chance as any other 1st or 2nd year QB. most teams who draft a 1st round QB give him a couple of years of seasoning before they make any kind of decision on him. why does Tebow deserve less than that?

I'm all for giving him his chance, and am thrilled he is getting the rest of the season to see what he can do. As it stands though, if a decision had to be made today, he is not our future. His dismal 3rd down #s.. which are THE key to winning games, are not even close to cutting it. Even if you remove all the "dropped passes" (many of which were under or overthrown), he still is not even close to being where he needs to be.

why is 3rd down conversion more important for a rookie QB than actually winning games? hasn't somebody here already shown that we've been running alot on 3rd down, or when we've been passing, it's been deep routes on 3rd and long? i think this issue is a bit of a red herring. we don't have an elite group of receivers. Tebow is not yet a prototypical pocket passer. the playcalling on 3rd down has been at best, predictable and low risk. i just don't see why Elway is insisting that this is the problem without qualifying his statements to the effect that other variables are also at work... it's not JUST that Tebow is struggling with accuracy on some throws.

I hope he improves, but I am not blind to the fact that he may not. What we are seeing may be what we get. If so, he is not the answer.

maybe. maybe not. the whole situation has to be understood in context. this is not the 2011 Packers offense where Tebow has been plugged-in and is expected to put up stats comparable to Rodgers. this is a rebuilding team without alot of offensive weapons, with a new coaching staff trying to install a hybrid offense from week to week on the fly. i just don't see how anyone can fairly evaluate Tebow's future in this league based on what we are seeing now. i think the kid really has only 1 goal right now... prove to the team that he deserves to come back next year and compete for the starting job. if he's able to prove that, then he'll finally get a full offseason with this staff and going into his 3rd year, he should be much farther along adjusting his mechanics. i personally think it has been a bad idea to tinker with those, but the previous 2 coaching staffs have insisted, so he's doing it. i hope he spends ALL offseason working with his own coaches so that come July 2012, he's ready to show significant progress to Fox/Elway/Xanders.

in my opinion, he's already earned a spot in next year's camp. then it's up to him to prove he deserves more than that. but he hasn't done anything to deserve being waived. unless somebody makes a great trade offer for him next offseason, i think he should be here in camp in 2012.

i can't think of any other young QB who has been so quickly dismissed as a failure by his critics as Tebow has, especially not a 1st rounder. i think the critics are not evaluating him honestly. as a guy who you already know needs experience and instruction still, he looks pretty good so far. but if he has to be judged against Brady or Peyton Manning or Rodgers, of course he doesn't measure up to that standard yet.

ScottXray
11-24-2011, 11:16 AM
in an attempt to have an honest argument, here's how i would respond as a 34+ year Broncos fan and Tebow supporter.



he's a young QB. the system they are using right now is not designed to improve his ability as a passer. so if that's the metric, then i would say it's an unfair one. the guy deserves as much chance as any other 1st or 2nd year QB. most teams who draft a 1st round QB give him a couple of years of seasoning before they make any kind of decision on him. why does Tebow deserve less than that?



why is 3rd down conversion more important for a rookie QB than actually winning games? hasn't somebody here already shown that we've been running alot on 3rd down, or when we've been passing, it's been deep routes on 3rd and long? i think this issue is a bit of a red herring. we don't have an elite group of receivers. Tebow is not yet a prototypical pocket passer. the playcalling on 3rd down has been at best, predictable and low risk. i just don't see why Elway is insisting that this is the problem without qualifying his statements to the effect that other variables are also at work... it's not JUST that Tebow is struggling with accuracy on some throws.



maybe. maybe not. the whole situation has to be understood in context. this is not the 2011 Packers offense where Tebow has been plugged-in and is expected to put up stats comparable to Rodgers. this is a rebuilding team without alot of offensive weapons, with a new coaching staff trying to install a hybrid offense from week to week on the fly. i just don't see how anyone can fairly evaluate Tebow's future in this league based on what we are seeing now. i think the kid really has only 1 goal right now... prove to the team that he deserves to come back next year and compete for the starting job. if he's able to prove that, then he'll finally get a full offseason with this staff and going into his 3rd year, he should be much farther along adjusting his mechanics. i personally think it has been a bad idea to tinker with those, but the previous 2 coaching staffs have insisted, so he's doing it. i hope he spends ALL offseason working with his own coaches so that come July 2012, he's ready to show significant progress to Fox/Elway/Xanders.

in my opinion, he's already earned a spot in next year's camp. then it's up to him to prove he deserves more than that. but he hasn't done anything to deserve being waived. unless somebody makes a great trade offer for him next offseason, i think he should be here in camp in 2012.

i can't think of any other young QB who has been so quickly dismissed as a failure by his critics as Tebow has, especially not a 1st rounder. i think the critics are not evaluating him honestly. as a guy who you already know needs experience and instruction still, he looks pretty good so far. but if he has to be judged against Brady or Peyton Manning or Rodgers, of course he doesn't measure up to that standard yet.

REP! I agree with all of this. Tebow should not be traded and deserves a FAIR shot, just like any other 1st or 2nd year player. IF he is the best QB on our team next summer after a real Off-season program, then he should get the #1 position. And purposely undermining him by throwing more than any SINGLE draft choice ( meaning not trading up in the draft) for a possible POTENTIAL QB in any college player is BS and harms the long term progress of the team.

This was supposed to be a 3 year rebuild, yet the team has traded away our two best receivers for a box of cracker jacks and a big mac, when those players could have helped the team now. These moves are nearly as bad as some of the MCD trades, in my opinion, and were made with little thought as to how they impact the teams ability to win now. And yet they started Orton becasue he "gives us our best chance to win" . Frankly the FO is showing some poor decision making and a streak of bi-polar disorder.

Agamemnon
11-24-2011, 11:49 AM
How funny would it have been to have this board during Elway's first 8 starts in which he looked like complete dog ****? Half the people on this board would be screaming for us to draft Boomer Esiason or Jeff Hostetler in the 1984 draft. Hilarious!

Broncos4tw
11-24-2011, 12:04 PM
why is 3rd down conversion more important for a rookie QB than actually winning games?

You act as if Tebow is the sole reason we are winning these games. Our D and running game is the reason. Tebow is just not losing it for us. i.e. not giving the ball up. Which is great mind you, but still, he isn't the sole reason we are winning. Coming back to redeem yourself after a very bad game doesn't mean he is top tier or the future for our team.

Yes, I agree he should get his chance. He is getting it now. He has the rest of this season, at least. But I think some of you are being exceptionally delusional if you really can't find fault in Tebows game. He has a lot of flaws right now, and needs to work them out. He'll never survive more than a few seasons if he continues to run the ball the way he is. His passes ARE off. The toss to Decker over his shoulder for a TD is HOW they should look. Not behind or in the turf or off to the right or behind the guy. He has far too many passes like this, and it's why the receivers are missing catches.

Agamemnon
11-24-2011, 12:10 PM
You act as if Tebow is the sole reason we are winning these games. Our D and running game is the reason. Tebow is just not losing it for us. i.e. not giving the ball up. Which is great mind you, but still, he isn't the sole reason we are winning. Coming back to redeem yourself after a very bad game doesn't mean he is top tier or the future for our team.

Yes, I agree he should get his chance. He is getting it now. He has the rest of this season, at least. But I think some of you are being exceptionally delusional if you really can't find fault in Tebows game. He has a lot of flaws right now, and needs to work them out. He'll never survive more than a few seasons if he continues to run the ball the way he is. His passes ARE off. The toss to Decker over his shoulder for a TD is HOW they should look. Not behind or in the turf or off to the right or behind the guy. He has far too many passes like this, and it's why the receivers are missing catches.

Err...who said Tebow's game doesn't have faults?

RMT
11-24-2011, 01:37 PM
You act as if Tebow is the sole reason we are winning these games. Our D and running game is the reason. Tebow is just not losing it for us. i.e. not giving the ball up. Which is great mind you, but still, he isn't the sole reason we are winning. Coming back to redeem yourself after a very bad game doesn't mean he is top tier or the future for our team.

Yes, I agree he should get his chance. He is getting it now. He has the rest of this season, at least. But I think some of you are being exceptionally delusional if you really can't find fault in Tebows game. He has a lot of flaws right now, and needs to work them out. He'll never survive more than a few seasons if he continues to run the ball the way he is. His passes ARE off. The toss to Decker over his shoulder for a TD is HOW they should look. Not behind or in the turf or off to the right or behind the guy. He has far too many passes like this, and it's why the receivers are missing catches.

It was Orton's job to not lose games and he wasn't able to do that.

It's odd that some of our "fans" act as if they'd prefer that we "lose pretty" (Orton ball) as opposed to "winning ugly" with Tebow. The latter has us in position to make the playoffs.

theAPAOps5
11-24-2011, 01:38 PM
It was Orton's job to not lose games and he wasn't able to do that.

It's odd that some of our "fans" act as if they'd prefer that we "lose pretty" (Orton ball) as opposed to "winning ugly" with Tebow. The latter has us in position to make the playoffs.

Winning is winning can't believe some people are upset but they are

RMT
11-24-2011, 01:48 PM
Winning is winning can't believe some people are upset but they are

No kidding - before it was that we weren't winning ... now it's HOW we're winning that's the problem ... disgusting.

It has a lot more to do with anti-Tebow sentiment than anything else - he's the must scrutinized NFL player in recent years. You can't help but admire his focus & determination to improve as a player. The fact that he is quickly gaining support in the locker room speaks volumes about his character & leadership. If his passing never improves, it won't be for a lack of effort. He'll do anything & everything it takes to improve & help his team win. That is a rare quality in professional sports nowadays.

RMT
11-24-2011, 01:52 PM
there's no point debating Tebow anymore.

the arguments have become dishonest on both sides. the anti-Tebow crowd creates strawman arguments that don't match what the pro-Tebow crowd is arguing, and vice-versa.

i honestly don't care anymore why people support or don't support Tebow.

these arguments no longer have anything to do with him and are now just proxy arguments for something else.

my only strong opinion is that i would be very disappointed if out current coaching staff and front office was unable to see past the silly bigotries on parade against Tebow (can't throw, doesn't belong in NFL, etc.) and decided to give up on him and restart the QB search all over again. that bothers my sense of "fairness". Tebow is showing us he's got something very few others have and i'd hate to see some other team discover that he really has a future in this league after we've discarded him.

ultimately though, i just want us to be a dominant franchise again. if Elway and Fox insist on going a different direction, they'd better be right, because 10 more years of wandering in the wilderness while searching for the "next Elway" every draft is not going to make this fanbase any happier.

Your last paragraph is spot on ... the Broncos' fan base has lost a lot of faith in the organization over the past several years - if they do go out on a limb & pursue a more prototypical NFL QB to compete (and eventually replace) Tebow, they had better NOT miss or fans will rebel worse than any other time in Broncos' history. With Tebow at QB and an improved defense, the fan base has been re-energized. It would be a tremendous risk to "go in a different direction" and have it NOT work out.

BroncoBeavis
11-24-2011, 02:19 PM
And Tebow is 6 for 43 on 3rd down. 13.95 %. .

Are we still talking 3rd down conversions? That can't be right considering we've had 8 conversions in the last two games alone.

Gort
11-24-2011, 02:30 PM
Are we still talking 3rd down conversions? That can't be right considering we've had 8 conversions in the last two games alone.

just for fun, here are the Broncos 3rd down plays against the Jets...

1) 3rd and 5: handoff to McGahee (+6 yards)
2) 3rd and 9: short pass from the shotgun to Johnson (+8 yards)
3) 3rd and 6: direct snap to Johnson (no gain)

4) 3rd and 11: short pass from the shotgun to Royal (+2 yards)
5) 3rd and 10: incomplete short pass from the shotgun to Fells
6) 3rd and 6: short pass from the shotgun to Royal (+5 yards)

7) 3rd and 7: incomplete deep pass from the shotgun to Decker
8) 3rd and 10: incomplete short pass from the shotgun to Thomas
9) 3rd and 11: incomplete deep pass from the shotgun to Ball
10) 3rd and 7: incomplete short pass from the shotgun to Decker

11) 3rd and 2: handoff to Larsen (no gain)
12) 3rd and 1: run by Tebow (+7 yards)
13) 3rd and 4: run by tebow (+20 yards, TD)

that's 3 conversions in 13 attempts.

2 attempts fell just short.
4 more were probably bad play calls (handoffs or deep throws).
4 more were short passes when we needed much more yardage. let's blame Tebow for those even though 2 were complete.

i'd say Tebow gets some blame for the incomplete passes or for the checkdowns to short passes, but each attempt has to be looked at in context and i don't have gamefilm to look at, however some blame goes to the playcalling too. quite frankly, this wasn't as awful a display as the national media has been claiming it was. the Jets were supposed to have a pretty good defense in case everyone has forgotten. the 2nd and 3rd quarters don't look good (that's for sure), but wasn't one of those incompletions a Decker drop?

USMCBladerunner
11-24-2011, 02:37 PM
So in closing: "Don't condescend me, man. I'll ****in' kill ya, man."

You're so cool.

oubronco
11-24-2011, 02:41 PM
just for fun, here are the Broncos 3rd down plays against the Jets...

1) 3rd and 5: handoff to McGahee (+6 yards)
2) 3rd and 9: short pass from the shotgun to Johnson (+8 yards)
3) 3rd and 6: direct snap to Johnson (no gain)

4) 3rd and 11: short pass from the shotgun to Royal (+2 yards)
5) 3rd and 10: incomplete short pass from the shotgun to Fells
6) 3rd and 6: short pass from the shotgun to Royal (+5 yards)

7) 3rd and 7: incomplete deep pass from the shotgun to Decker
8) 3rd and 10: incomplete short pass from the shotgun to Thomas
9) 3rd and 11: incomplete deep pass from the shotgun to Ball
10) 3rd and 7: incomplete short pass from the shotgun to Decker

11) 3rd and 2: handoff to Larsen (no gain)
12) 3rd and 1: run by Tebow (+7 yards)
13) 3rd and 4: run by tebow (+20 yards, TD)

that's 3 conversions in 13 attempts.

2 attempts fell just short.
4 more were probably bad play calls (handoffs or deep throws).
4 more were short passes when we needed much more yardage. let's blame Tebow for those even though 2 were complete and 1 was definitely Royal's fault for not knowing where the marker was.

i'd say Tebow gets some blame for the incomplete passes or for the checkdowns to short passes, but each attempt has to be looked at in context and i don't have gamefilm to look at, however some blame goes to the playcalling too. quite frankly, this wasn't as awful a display as the national media has been claiming it was. the Jets were supposed to have a pretty good defense in case everyone has forgotten. the 2nd and 3rd quarters don't look good (that's for sure), but wasn't one of those incompletions a Decker drop?

This is the offense they did special for Tebow you guys love it when it works and bitch when it don't

Gort
11-24-2011, 02:44 PM
This is the offense they did special for Tebow you guys love it when it works and b**** when it don't

BTW, i was still editing my post when you quoted me.

all i was trying to do is show what actually happened on 3rd downs. there seems to be a disconnect between perception and reality in the national media. this week i heard people describe the Jets game as 55 minutes of futility and 5 minutes of ecstasy (it wasn't, that was the Miami game).

mhgaffney
11-24-2011, 03:29 PM
You act as if Tebow is the sole reason we are winning these games. Our D and running game is the reason. Tebow is just not losing it for us. i.e. not giving the ball up. Which is great mind you, but still, he isn't the sole reason we are winning. Coming back to redeem yourself after a very bad game doesn't mean he is top tier or the future for our team.

Yes, I agree he should get his chance. He is getting it now. He has the rest of this season, at least. But I think some of you are being exceptionally delusional if you really can't find fault in Tebows game. He has a lot of flaws right now, and needs to work them out. He'll never survive more than a few seasons if he continues to run the ball the way he is. His passes ARE off. The toss to Decker over his shoulder for a TD is HOW they should look. Not behind or in the turf or off to the right or behind the guy. He has far too many passes like this, and it's why the receivers are missing catches.

Apparently you had your eyes closed -- and missed seeing Tebow run 24 yards around and through the Jets defense - for the winning TD -- last week.

Solution: Open your eyes.

Tebow did more than "not lose" the game.

ant1999e
11-24-2011, 03:46 PM
Ok, first of all...PLAYOFFS? (said in my best Mora imitation) Where in my post did I say anything about PLAYOFFS? So basically calling me ignorant for allegedly ripping Elway about the PLAYOFFS was not only rude and uncalled for but completely unfounded.



It was ELWAY HIMSELF who threw out winning a title as the standard of judgement for the play of a QB who has played in 8 games, which incidentally I find a bit ironic considering his tweet after the first game of the season when he was singing a decidedly different tune about unfairly judging someone after only one game and how HE HIMSELF would not have fared well if it had been done to him. This to defend a QB who was actually playing in his 30th game, mind you, not his first. But the standards seem to have changed quite dramatically for Tebow. Now all of a sudden at 8 games, world championships are the appropriate measuring stick.



EXACTLY! Thank you for making my point for me. Given how difficult it is and how few have actually done so, on what planet is that a fair standard to judge a QB after only his 8th start?

No one was b**** about it taking Elway 15 years to win one. The point made in the article (that I was simply emphasizing) was that it IS INDEED a very difficult thing to do, even for a HOFamer like Elway (who I pointed out also had the help of a league MVP RB, unlike Tebow), so again, why is that a fair comparison for an essentially rookie QB?

So in closing: "Don't condescend me, man. I'll ****in' kill ya, man."

Hey Errand,

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/lSet6htnVcQ" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

theAPAOps5
11-24-2011, 05:04 PM
Apparently you had your eyes closed -- and missed seeing Tebow run 24 yards around and through the Jets defense - for the winning TD -- last week.

Solution: Open your eyes.

Tebow did more than "not lose" the game.

Totally agree, that has never happened

errand
11-24-2011, 05:12 PM
I read somewhere earlier that Elway went 4 for 19 on 3rd downs in his last AFC Championship against the Jets.

How in the world did we win a championship? :D

Well we already won a championship prior to that Jets AFCCG...but cuz you asked....

Simple...our QB hit on 62% of his passes (mostly from the pocket) and we converted 6 of 13 (46%) vs the Falcons.

errand
11-24-2011, 05:21 PM
so, now it's not enough that those are a team's 3rd down conversion rates ... now we have to break it down by conversion rates in "wins" vs "losses"?

that's someone who prefers grasping at straws until he/she finds the "right straw" ... pathetic.

No...my point was is that the chances of winning games without converting alot of 3rd downs though possible, greatly decreases.

errand
11-24-2011, 05:29 PM
How funny would it have been to have this board during Elway's first 8 starts in which he looked like complete dog ****? Half the people on this board would be screaming for us to draft Boomer Esiason or Jeff Hostetler in the 1984 draft. Hilarious!

Maybe they would have...but the big difference was there was a just as capable veteran QB (DeBerg) behind John during his first 4-5 starts, and another rookie named Kubiak behind him during starts 6-8 as DeBerg was healing up from a separated shoulder.

One of Elway's former teammates said it best when asked about the expectations of the NFL's first millionaire rookie....

"He had to take us to the Super bowl, or else he was gonna be meat..."

errand
11-24-2011, 05:32 PM
Err...who said Tebow's game doesn't have faults?

Try this experiment...

point out one of his flaws, and see how fast your reply is descended upon with rage

errand
11-24-2011, 05:36 PM
Shannon sharpe asked Tebow if he truly believes the Broncos FO is 100% behind him on trailer for his upcoming interview

Tebow hesitated and said "I'm truly blessed to be playing for this organization"

Shannon like a pit bull wouldn't let him dodge the question...he said "that's not what i asked you"...and repeated the question

Tebow paused even longer, then of course to build suspense they cut away from the interview...

I'm guessing Tebow will give us a non-confrontational answer....

Agamemnon
11-24-2011, 05:57 PM
Maybe they would have...

Maybe? Hilarious!

Agamemnon
11-24-2011, 05:59 PM
Try this experiment...

point out one of his flaws, and see how fast your reply is descended upon with rage

Tebow often fails to use proper footwork which hurts his consistency and accuracy.

Pretty sure no one is going to get all up in arms about that...

oubronco
11-24-2011, 06:14 PM
Shannon sharpe asked Tebow if he truly believes the Broncos FO is 100% behind him on trailer for his upcoming interview

Tebow hesitated and said "I'm truly blessed to be playing for this organization"

Shannon like a pit bull wouldn't let him dodge the question...he said "that's not what i asked you"...and repeated the question

Tebow paused even longer, then of course to build suspense they cut away from the interview...

I'm guessing Tebow will give us a non-confrontational answer....

Damn if that was Elway the tebowites would be all over it like a crackhead on a baseball size rock

errand
11-24-2011, 06:25 PM
Tebow often fails to use proper footwork which hurts his consistency and accuracy.

Pretty sure no one is going to get all up in arms about that...

Why do hate Christians so much?

errand
11-24-2011, 06:27 PM
Tebow often fails to use proper footwork which hurts his consistency and accuracy.

Pretty sure no one is going to get all up in arms about that...


4-1....keep saying it before you post anymore drivel

Agamemnon
11-24-2011, 06:28 PM
Why do hate Christians so much?

Is this supposed to prove your point? ::)

Agamemnon
11-24-2011, 06:30 PM
4-1....keep saying it before you post anymore drivel

So I post a legitimate criticism, and after no one says anything, you post some facetious non-sense to try and back yourself up? Okay...

errand
11-24-2011, 06:36 PM
Tebow often fails to use proper footwork which hurts his consistency and accuracy.

Pretty sure no one is going to get all up in arms about that...

The Colts stood solidly behind a rookie QB that went 3-13 while breaking the NFL Record for Rookie QB Ints. They gave him
EVERY kind of help that they could and defended him to everyone.
It still took that future HoF QB 7 YEARS to take his team to a SB.

You jerks (Bowlen/Elway/Fox) won't stand behind a 5-3 rookie QB that has 21 TD's to just 5 turnovers.
==============

Now, IF Tebow could only develop as a passer, everything would be just fine.

BEFORE ELWAY-FOX and in a 'norman' NFL Offense came to Denver:
Tebow was a better passer than the
Current Top 5 QB's in the NFL were in their first 3 starts.
My question is; what has the Elway/Fox Combo done to screw up Tebow's already demonstrated passing skills?
(besides trading away his Top 2 WR's from 2010)

Tebow's 2010 Preseason:
Passing - 25 of 39, 64.1%, for 344 yds, 13.8 yds/comp, 2 TD's, 2 Ints, PER 87.0
Rushing - 6 for 31 yds, 5.2 ypc, 1 TD, 1 LPF.
Total Offense - 45 plays for 375 yds, 8.3 yds/play, 3 TD's, 3 Ints.

Tebow's 2010 Reg Season, 3 Starts:
Passing - 41 of 82, 50%, for 654 yds, 16 yds/comp, 5 TD's, 3 Ints, PER 82.1
Rushing - 43 for 227 yds, 5.3 ypc, 6 TD's, ZERO LPF's.
Total Offense - 125 plays for 881 yds, 7 yds/play, 11 TD's, 3 turnovers.
(to St. John, Tebow 3rd down conversion rate is the 'bottom line' instead of his Total Off or T-O ratio)

False Claim, Tebow can ONLY run the ball.
Reality, only 34.4% of Tim's 2010 plays were running plays, and that includes pass plays where he
had to scramble or be sacked.

I don't know, could it be the new coaches and/or their STUPID offense, game planning, play calling that's
the root of the problem
The same genius's that put 104 Orton ahead of 108 Tebow because they claimed that 1-4 Orton gave them a better
chance to win than a 4-1 Tebow!

Naw, it that 8 start 5-3 QB with the 79.8 Career PER that's the Bronco's problem in 2011.

errand
11-24-2011, 06:37 PM
So I post a legitimate criticism, and after no one says anything, you post some facetious non-sense to try and back yourself up? Okay...

Same type of **** that others on here have been subjected to by you and your cronies when they have criticized Tebow...

Agamemnon
11-24-2011, 06:40 PM
Same type of **** that others on here have been subjected to by you and your cronies when they have criticized Tebow...

You're really making yourself look silly.

errand
11-24-2011, 07:13 PM
You're really making yourself look silly.

Sure I am...i'm demonstrating absurdity by being absurd myself

bottom line is that's all anyone is saying about the guy...even Elway..they criticize his ability to throw the ball with even moderately tolerable success, they criticize his ability to convert 3rd downs, that his footwork needs work, etc.

I've not seen one criticism of his religion, despite numerous claims by people like yourself saying others on here hate him because of it.

I can't recall anyone saying we can't win with him as our Qb save for a troll or two...but it's not systemic like you and your cronies claim it is. Now there have been several who have said we can't win consistently with him if he doesn't improve his ability to throw the ball, or with this spread option offense but again it's just a criticism, not hatred.

What I have heard people say is that they wanna see how he's progressed between start #1 and start #10...most if not all of these "haters" as you like to call them have a "wait and see" attitude about the kid. They want to see him improve the aforementioned areas he struggles with.

barryr
11-24-2011, 07:46 PM
Sure I am...i'm demonstrating absurdity by being absurd myself

bottom line is that's all anyone is saying about the guy...even Elway..they criticize his ability to throw the ball with even moderately tolerable success, they criticize his ability to convert 3rd downs, that his footwork needs work, etc.

I've not seen one criticism of his religion, despite numerous claims by people like yourself saying others on here hate him because of it.

I can't recall anyone saying we can't win with him as our Qb save for a troll or two...but it's not systemic like you and your cronies claim it is. Now there have been several who have said we can't win consistently with him if he doesn't improve his ability to throw the ball, or with this spread option offense but again it's just a criticism, not hatred.

What I have heard people say is that they wanna see how he's progressed between start #1 and start #10...most if not all of these "haters" as you like to call them have a "wait and see" attitude about the kid. They want to see him improve the aforementioned areas he struggles with.

Criticizing Tebow is one thing, but again, Tebow has yet to start a camp as the starter with a set offense to work on timing and whatever else the coaches want from him. That is pretty important and something that seems often ignored by some.

Jay3
11-24-2011, 07:59 PM
why is 3rd down conversion more important for a rookie QB than actually winning games?

You act as if Tebow is the sole reason we are winning these games. Our D and running game is the reason. Tebow is just not losing it for us. i.e. not giving the ball up. Which is great mind you, but still, he isn't the sole reason we are winning.

And by the same logic, Tebow is not the sole reason we are having 3rd down difficulty.

oubronco
11-24-2011, 08:10 PM
You're really making yourself look silly.

Not really he's just making a point and thats how it is

DBroncos4life
11-24-2011, 08:18 PM
Tebow often fails to use proper footwork which hurts his consistency and accuracy.

Pretty sure no one is going to get all up in arms about that...

Why are you not happy with our team winning?

Boobs McGee
11-24-2011, 08:58 PM
Sure I am...i'm demonstrating absurdity by being absurd myself

bottom line is that's all anyone is saying about the guy...even Elway..they criticize his ability to throw the ball with even moderately tolerable success, they criticize his ability to convert 3rd downs, that his footwork needs work, etc.

I've not seen one criticism of his religion, despite numerous claims by people like yourself saying others on here hate him because of it.

I can't recall anyone saying we can't win with him as our Qb save for a troll or two...but it's not systemic like you and your cronies claim it is. Now there have been several who have said we can't win consistently with him if he doesn't improve his ability to throw the ball, or with this spread option offense but again it's just a criticism, not hatred.

What I have heard people say is that they wanna see how he's progressed between start #1 and start #10...most if not all of these "haters" as you like to call them have a "wait and see" attitude about the kid. They want to see him improve the aforementioned areas he struggles with.

Exactly. I don't see anything wrong with this at all. I'm not speaking for anyone else with what I'm about to say, so please don't think I'm putting words in your mouth here...but for ME, this is why I don't have a problem with that John says.

The guy needs to get better on third down efficiency. Yes. John, imo, IS looking long term, as evidenced by his response in talking about superbowls. He wants this franchise to get back to a dominant position, and is going to do everything within his power to get us there. If that means the "wait and see" approach with Tebow? Fine. I have no problem with it. I also don't have a problem with him being completely honest about his evaluations, OR the fact that he had to go back and explain once again that he IS supporting Tebow because his comments are misconstrued.

The problem we have, as fans, is that we don't see what's going on behind closed doors. All of the Tebow fanatics (and yes, I love Timmay and what he's done so far, think he has incredible potential and hope he's the long term answer) sit here and shout from the rooftops that he's getting too much criticism, not enough support, etc etc...how do ANY of you know what's being talked about in the meetings? You don't think he's gone over this **** time and time again with the players? You don't think Tim is thick skinned/intelligent enough to know that he has problems? For ****s sake, he's a man that's been dealing with this **** his ENTIRE LIFE. It's nothing new.

We wanted transparency, we have transparency.

errand
11-24-2011, 09:07 PM
Criticizing Tebow is one thing, but again, Tebow has yet to start a camp as the starter with a set offense to work on timing and whatever else the coaches want from him. That is pretty important and something that seems often ignored by some.

Nobody's ignoring it...but WTF can anyone do about it? The off season is over....pre-season is over. and it isn't anyone's fault that tebow didn't make the coaching staff take notice running the offense they implemented when they took over.

The bottom line is that they saw him almost win a game in their offense vs Chargers, and made him the starter...noticed that his skill set wasn't in tune to the offense they installed in pre-season and changed it to maximize his strengths....we've won 4 of 5.

Coaches make adjustments, and sure maybe Fox regrets waiting 5 games into the season to make the change, but nothing anyone can do about it.....

RaiderH8r
11-24-2011, 09:11 PM
Elway was KO's ride or die bitch all the way down the 1-4 hole with his "best chance to win now" spiel and now he's got a guy who has, against long odds, gone 4-1 since taking the reins beating KC and Oak on the road in back to back games while making the Broncos relevant to the point King John is talking Super Bowl titles and now the FO gets a quivering vagina about backing their guy in public? It doesn't compute. Elway sure as hell wasn't transparent when KO was getting our lunch handed to us.

epicSocialism4tw
11-24-2011, 10:26 PM
We wanted transparency, we have transparency.

Don't be fooled.

Was Elway being 'transparent' when he defended Orton publicly?

No.

They obviously had no faith that Orton was the answer, and its obvious that he wasn't the Broncos' best chance to win.

epicSocialism4tw
11-24-2011, 10:28 PM
Elway was KO's ride or die b**** all the way down the 1-4 hole with his "best chance to win now" spiel and now he's got a guy who has, against long odds, gone 4-1 since taking the reins beating KC and Oak on the road in back to back games while making the Broncos relevant to the point King John is talking Super Bowl titles and now the FO gets a quivering vagina about backing their guy in public? It doesn't compute. Elway sure as hell wasn't transparent when KO was getting our lunch handed to us.

EXACTLY.

The front office is a ridiculous mess, and anyone buying the spiel coming out of that rathole is a puppet on a string.

Boobs McGee
11-24-2011, 10:30 PM
Don't be fooled.

Was Elway being 'transparent' when he defended Orton publicly?

No.

They obviously had no faith that Orton was the answer, and its obvious that he wasn't the Broncos' best chance to win.

They obviously thought, at that point for whatever reason, that orton was our best chance to win. Then they realized he wasn't, and made the switch. I still don't see a lack of transparency.

Requiem
11-24-2011, 10:31 PM
Epic is just failing like usual.

Failures gonna f-fff***kking fail

epicSocialism4tw
11-24-2011, 10:33 PM
They obviously thought, at that point for whatever reason, that orton was our best chance to win. Then they realized he wasn't, and made the switch. I still don't see a lack of transparency.

If they didn't know what Orton was and what the result of starting him would be, then they didn't do their job as talent evaluators.

Every Bronco fan on the planet knew what Orton was capable of, and then his performance played right to the script that everyone expected. So either the FO are not capable of evaluating QB talent or they were finessing the truth to try to get Broncos fans to buy in and show up to games.

Either way it doesnt look good.

jhns
11-25-2011, 06:54 AM
If they didn't know what Orton was and what the result of starting him would be, then they didn't do their job as talent evaluators.

Every Bronco fan on the planet knew what Orton was capable of, and then his performance played right to the script that everyone expected. So either the FO are not capable of evaluating QB talent or they were finessing the truth to try to get Broncos fans to buy in and show up to games.

Either way it doesnt look good.

Pretty much. The front office showed it was incompetent and now this is what we get. I can't wait to see them try picking the right QB out of a pool of a lot more than four guys. Especially when there is no NFL tape on them.

Lolad
11-25-2011, 07:09 AM
Found this under the comment section on the DP

Joe Theismann - Super Bowl winner in his first 25 starts (14-11) - 48.9% completion rate and 28 tds - 37 ints.

Trent Dilfer - Super Bowl winner in his first 18 starts (7-11) - 52.7% completion rate and 5 td and 24 ints.

Troy Aikman - Super Bowl winner in his first 26 starts (7-19) - 55.0% completion rate and 20 tds and 36 ints.

Steve Young - Super Bowl winner in his first 19 starts (3-16) - 53.3% completion rate and 11 tds and 21 ints.

Eli Manning - Super Bowl winner in his first 7 starts (1-6) - 48.2% completion rate and 6 tds and 9 ints.

Peyton Manning - Super Bowl winner in his first 16 starts (3-13) - 56.7% completion rate and 26 tds and 28 ints.

Doug Williams - Super Bowl winner in his first 10 starts (4-6) - 37.6% completion rate and 7 tds and 8 ints.

Joe Namath - Super Bowl winner in his first 22 starts (8-11-3) - 48.8% completion rate and 37 tds and 42 ints.

Bob Griese - Super Bowl winner in his first 10 starts (3-7) - 50.2% completion rate and 15 tds and 18 ints.

John Elway - Super Bowl winner in his first 10 starts (4-6) - 47.5% completion rate and 7 tds and 14 ints.

Interesting numbers to say the least

barryr
11-25-2011, 07:12 AM
The situation was botched as soon as not just rumors Orton was being traded, but reports were he was gone to Miami and when the trade fell through, they had a lame duck QB who was named the starter. They had a QB who knew he wasn't wanted and would not be back, so that was the biggest mistake.

Maybe if there had been a regular training camp, things would have been different, but the FO does need to do a better job of keeping certain things in house. They do not need to tell the public every little thing that goes on, especially if it is something that could hurt the team in some way.

jhns
11-25-2011, 07:15 AM
The situation was botched as soon as not just rumors Orton was being traded, but reports were he was gone to Miami and when the trade fell through, they had a lame duck QB who was named the starter. They had a QB who knew he wasn't wanted and would not be back, so that was the biggest mistake.

Maybe if there had been a regular training camp, things would have been different, but the FO does need to do a better job of keeping certain things in house. They do not need to tell the public every little thing that goes on, especially if it is something that could hurt the team in some way.

Like thet care. They just gave a division rival a starting QB for free. That division rival is one game back from this team... They are quickly becomming a joke.

barryr
11-25-2011, 07:17 AM
Found this under the comment section on the DP

Joe Theismann - Super Bowl winner in his first 25 starts (14-11) - 48.9% completion rate and 28 tds - 37 ints.

Trent Dilfer - Super Bowl winner in his first 18 starts (7-11) - 52.7% completion rate and 5 td and 24 ints.

Troy Aikman - Super Bowl winner in his first 26 starts (7-19) - 55.0% completion rate and 20 tds and 36 ints.

Steve Young - Super Bowl winner in his first 19 starts (3-16) - 53.3% completion rate and 11 tds and 21 ints.

Eli Manning - Super Bowl winner in his first 7 starts (1-6) - 48.2% completion rate and 6 tds and 9 ints.

Peyton Manning - Super Bowl winner in his first 16 starts (3-13) - 56.7% completion rate and 26 tds and 28 ints.

Doug Williams - Super Bowl winner in his first 10 starts (4-6) - 37.6% completion rate and 7 tds and 8 ints.

Joe Namath - Super Bowl winner in his first 22 starts (8-11-3) - 48.8% completion rate and 37 tds and 42 ints.

Bob Griese - Super Bowl winner in his first 10 starts (3-7) - 50.2% completion rate and 15 tds and 18 ints.

John Elway - Super Bowl winner in his first 10 starts (4-6) - 47.5% completion rate and 7 tds and 14 ints.

Interesting numbers to say the least

The numbers do not lie. Yes, some rookies and young QB's post better numbers, but point is many of them do not and struggle. Some say "well, those QB's were on bad teams" like somehow Tebow is playing on a Super Bowl contender right now. And I will point out again, in his 2nd year in the NFL without ever having a full training camp where he was the starter and getting most of the reps with the starters and is learning a new offense on the fly with really few established players on offense around him. Can the Broncos really honestly evaluate if Tebow is the starter of the future no matter what happens the rest of this season?

CEH
11-25-2011, 07:20 AM
Are we still talking 3rd down conversions? That can't be right considering we've had 8 conversions in the last two games alone.

My guess is the stat was the 3rd down % for the first 3 qtrs of play. At one point we were 0-18. For whatever reason our offense is horrible for 3 qtrs.

Steve Prefontaine
11-25-2011, 07:39 AM
Found this under the comment section on the DP

Joe Theismann - Super Bowl winner in his first 25 starts (14-11) - 48.9% completion rate and 28 tds - 37 ints.

Trent Dilfer - Super Bowl winner in his first 18 starts (7-11) - 52.7% completion rate and 5 td and 24 ints.

Troy Aikman - Super Bowl winner in his first 26 starts (7-19) - 55.0% completion rate and 20 tds and 36 ints.

Steve Young - Super Bowl winner in his first 19 starts (3-16) - 53.3% completion rate and 11 tds and 21 ints.

Eli Manning - Super Bowl winner in his first 7 starts (1-6) - 48.2% completion rate and 6 tds and 9 ints.

Peyton Manning - Super Bowl winner in his first 16 starts (3-13) - 56.7% completion rate and 26 tds and 28 ints.

Doug Williams - Super Bowl winner in his first 10 starts (4-6) - 37.6% completion rate and 7 tds and 8 ints.

Joe Namath - Super Bowl winner in his first 22 starts (8-11-3) - 48.8% completion rate and 37 tds and 42 ints.

Bob Griese - Super Bowl winner in his first 10 starts (3-7) - 50.2% completion rate and 15 tds and 18 ints.

John Elway - Super Bowl winner in his first 10 starts (4-6) - 47.5% completion rate and 7 tds and 14 ints.

Interesting numbers to say the least

That can't be accurate. Tebow is the only young QB to struggle.

Jay3
11-25-2011, 07:42 AM
I'm going to come out and lay some powerful truth on you guys, because it needs to be said.

No, it's too much, I'm going to keep it to myself.

Wait. I have to tell the truth.


Tebow could sustain what he did to the Jets for 60 minutes. Without getting too tired and without undue risk of injury. The should go empty backfield most of the game and just win.

BroncoBeavis
11-25-2011, 07:48 AM
My guess is the stat was the 3rd down % for the first 3 qtrs of play. At one point we were 0-18. For whatever reason our offense is horrible for 3 qtrs.

Just from watching the games my instant thought is gameplan. We don't seem to adapt anything at halftime or mix anything up until the end of games where they have no choice but to release the Timmy.

Something will work early. The defense adjusts. Then we keep doing it. Its supposed to be a chess match. Not checkers.

Boobs McGee
11-25-2011, 08:54 AM
If they didn't know what Orton was and what the result of starting him would be, then they didn't do their job as talent evaluators.

Every Bronco fan on the planet knew what Orton was capable of, and then his performance played right to the script that everyone expected. So either the FO are not capable of evaluating QB talent or they were finessing the truth to try to get Broncos fans to buy in and show up to games.

Either way it doesnt look good.

Right, because they had a veteran coming off of a statistically sound year, a rookie that had played three decent games, no offseason, a shortened camp, and all of this being seen by new personnel with new schemes on both sides of the ball. I'm going to go ahead and give them a pass on their early mistake. Not to mention that once they DID recognize their error they completely overhauled their offensive strategy. This year's draft is pretty solid evidence that the FO is competent in the talent evaluation department btw.

So yes, you're not going to change your mind because it's your opinion and you've let one player's handling cloud your judgment...why don't you try a more subjective approach, perhaps?

jhns
11-25-2011, 08:58 AM
Right, because they had a veteran coming off of a statistically sound year, a rookie that had played three decent games, no offseason, a shortened camp, and all of this being seen by new personnel with new schemes on both sides of the ball. I'm going to go ahead and give them a pass on their early mistake. Not to mention that once they DID recognize their error they completely overhauled their offensive strategy. This year's draft is pretty solid evidence that the FO is competent in the talent evaluation department btw.

So yes, you're not going to change your mind because it's your opinion and you've let one player's handling cloud your judgment...why don't you try a more subjective approach, perhaps?

Be more subjective as I make excuses for them making the wrong decision! Do you think giving a division rival a starting QB is also a good idea? If Tebow doesn't work, we are screwed at the QB position. Everything they do there is a mistake.

RaiderH8r
11-25-2011, 09:37 AM
Be more subjective as I make excuses for them making the wrong decision! Do you think giving a division rival a starting QB is also a good idea? If Tebow doesn't work, we are screwed at the QB position. Everything they do there is a mistake.

I do everything better than Xanders. Everything.

Boobs McGee
11-25-2011, 10:15 AM
I do everything better than Xanders. Everything.

He's got the pizza delivery market on lock...

peacepipe
11-25-2011, 10:20 AM
Be more subjective as I make excuses for them making the wrong decision! Do you think giving a division rival a starting QB is also a good idea? If Tebow doesn't work, we are screwed at the QB position. Everything they do there is a mistake.

Do you understand how waivers work?

Boobs McGee
11-25-2011, 10:23 AM
Be more subjective as I make excuses for them making the wrong decision! Do you think giving a division rival a starting QB is also a good idea? If Tebow doesn't work, we are screwed at the QB position. Everything they do there is a mistake.

Actually, at that point, we're right back where we were when they came into office - Minus Kyle Orton, who's been ostracized by the majority of the board.

How is THAT a mistake? Why in the hell do you think the FO is out there scouting qb's? JUST. IN. CASE.


I'm not making excuses for their decisions, just trying to explain my stance on what they've done. It's perfectly acceptable in my eyes to criticize your team, and I'm thankful for the insight into their evaluations. Have they made mistakes? Sure. Isn't anything to meltdown over, however, and in my opinion their overall grade is a high one.

bombay
11-25-2011, 10:37 AM
It'll be interesting to see what QB they take. Haven't seen Griffith play, but he's shooting up the draft boards, apparently.

TonyR
11-25-2011, 11:27 AM
Do you think giving a division rival a starting QB is also a good idea?

You need to make up your mind on Kyle Orton. Before this he was the worst QB on the planet. Now he's somehow a threat? Or do you just want something to cry about? If Tebow can't beat Orton then the FO will have an easier decision to make, right?

Spider
11-25-2011, 11:36 AM
EXACTLY.

The front office is a ridiculous mess, and anyone buying the spiel coming out of that rathole is a puppet on a string.

in tebows name amen

Spider
11-25-2011, 11:39 AM
You need to make up your mind on Kyle Orton. Before this he was the worst QB on the planet. Now he's somehow a threat? Or do you just want something to cry about? If Tebow can't beat Orton then the FO will have an easier decision to make, right?

Hilarious! in case you havent heard ,Jhns is a super genius that got where he is today without any assistance , only family that paid his way , But other then that no other assistance in any kind of form .. so to sum it all up , it is Jhns world , we just live here enjoying the scrapes he throws the little people ........in Tebows name amen;)

jhns
11-25-2011, 11:47 AM
You need to make up your mind on Kyle Orton. Before this he was the worst QB on the planet. Now he's somehow a threat? Or do you just want something to cry about? If Tebow can't beat Orton then the FO will have an easier decision to make, right?

You are a clown that obviously has trouble reading. I have continually said he was the second best QB on this roster and that it would be a mistake to play Quinn. That sure sounds like me saying Orton is the worst ever!

KC had a backup QB playing. That backup is not nearly as good as Orton. You clowns defend the dumbest moves. You are looking just as stupid as you did when McDaniels was here.

I live in reality. You think everything is one big conspiracy. Good luck with that.

jhns
11-25-2011, 11:49 AM
Hilarious! in case you havent heard ,Jhns is a super genius that got where he is today without any assistance , only family that paid his way , But other then that no other assistance in any kind of form .. so to sum it all up , it is Jhns world , we just live here enjoying the scrapes he throws the little people ........in Tebows name amen;)

I don't throw scrapes at little people as that doesn't make any sense. Poor spider, I will pray for you.

jhns
11-25-2011, 11:51 AM
Actually, at that point, we're right back where we were when they came into office - Minus Kyle Orton, who's been ostracized by the majority of the board.

How is THAT a mistake? Why in the hell do you think the FO is out there scouting qb's? JUST. IN. CASE.


I'm not making excuses for their decisions, just trying to explain my stance on what they've done. It's perfectly acceptable in my eyes to criticize your team, and I'm thankful for the insight into their evaluations. Have they made mistakes? Sure. Isn't anything to meltdown over, however, and in my opinion their overall grade is a high one.

Minus Orton and the two top receivers. Orton didn't mean much to this team, but you don't help division rivals. That is just retarded. Like worse than what McDaniels did here.

This is all after throwing games with their best chance to win...

CEH
11-25-2011, 11:55 AM
The real issue and more long term issue is the reason why Orton was released. Bowlen's lack of cash. This was a salary dump because of the amount of teams needing a QB. Orton was ensured of being pickup up. Not the case a couple weeks ago when Orton was still on the sideline in his beanie and coat for the whole game collecting his paycheck and playing LBer for the scout team. Real good use of a guy making $8 MM. Dallas put in a claim just to cock block CHI. I thought DET might now that as well

RaiderH8r
11-25-2011, 12:28 PM
You need to make up your mind on Kyle Orton. Before this he was the worst QB on the planet. Now he's somehow a threat? Or do you just want something to cry about? If Tebow can't beat Orton then the FO will have an easier decision to make, right?

It isn't about the best QB on our team. It is about having just improved the QB on KC's team. If KO is dog **** then Palko is dog **** with worms. Anybody who says they wouldn't rather face Palko is a liar or an idiot.

jhns
11-25-2011, 12:33 PM
It isn't about the best QB on our team. It is about having just improved the QB on KC's team. If KO is dog **** then Palko is dog **** with worms. Anybody who says they wouldn't rather face Palko is a liar or an idiot.

Tony clearly falls under the idiot category.

Mile High Mojoe
11-25-2011, 12:38 PM
It isn't about the best QB on our team. It is about having just improved the QB on KC's team. If KO is dog **** then Palko is dog **** with worms. Anybody who says they wouldn't rather face Palko is a liar or an idiot.

Wow! What an endorsement for Orton, Palko may not measure up but anyone who thinks Orton will help the Chiefs win games or even making a run at the division is a liar and idiot. Orton is no savior he was a bum when he walked in and one going out and he suddenly isn't going to shed his skin and become Brady.

I relish the day the Broncos play the Chiefs again, we'll kick their butts (If Orton or Palko starts) right off the planet, it'll be epic.

RaiderH8r
11-25-2011, 12:45 PM
Wow! What an endorsement for Orton, Palko may not measure up but anyone who thinks Orton will help the Chiefs win games or even making a run at the division is a liar and idiot. Orton is no savior he was a bum when he walked in and one going out and he suddenly isn't going to shed his skin and become Brady.

I relish the day the Broncos play the Chiefs again, we'll kick their butts (If Orton or Palko starts) right off the planet, it'll be epic.

The NFL works in strange ways and these things have a tendency to bite teams in the ass. I am more comfortable facing a Palko led chiefs club. Not saying KO is going to change the world but he is better than Palko.

Spider
11-25-2011, 12:46 PM
I don't throw scrapes at little people as that doesn't make any sense. Poor spider, I will pray for you.

in tebows name amen

jhns
11-25-2011, 12:47 PM
Wow! What an endorsement for Orton, Palko may not measure up but anyone who thinks Orton will help the Chiefs win games or even making a run at the division is a liar and idiot. Orton is no savior he was a bum when he walked in and one going out and he suddenly isn't going to shed his skin and become Brady.

I relish the day the Broncos play the Chiefs again, we'll kick their butts (If Orton or Palko starts) right off the planet, it'll be epic.

You are defending making a division rival better. How intelligent.

SoCalBronco
11-25-2011, 12:49 PM
The real issue and more long term issue is the reason why Orton was released. Bowlen's lack of cash.

Thankfully we will only have to worry about this issue for one more summer. Then Bowlen will be legally compelled to spend to the cap floor every year (I think its 89% of the cap) regardless of whether he has the cash or not. He has to come up with it one way or another to comply. If he can't comply, hopefully the union would file a grievance and proceedings would begin to strip him of the team.

razorwire77
11-25-2011, 12:49 PM
I think an Orton vs. Tebow Chiefs/Broncos game is a helluva lot more entertaining than a Tebow Palko battle. In fact, it almost makes up for Baby Jay being hurt for the Bears game. This season has turned out to be much more fun than I thought it would be, and Kyle Orton as the Chief's starter is just the cherry on the ridiculous sundae.

Play2win
11-25-2011, 12:51 PM
Found this under the comment section on the DP

Joe Theismann - Super Bowl winner in his first 25 starts (14-11) - 48.9% completion rate and 28 tds - 37 ints.

Trent Dilfer - Super Bowl winner in his first 18 starts (7-11) - 52.7% completion rate and 5 td and 24 ints.

Troy Aikman - Super Bowl winner in his first 26 starts (7-19) - 55.0% completion rate and 20 tds and 36 ints.

Steve Young - Super Bowl winner in his first 19 starts (3-16) - 53.3% completion rate and 11 tds and 21 ints.

Eli Manning - Super Bowl winner in his first 7 starts (1-6) - 48.2% completion rate and 6 tds and 9 ints.

Peyton Manning - Super Bowl winner in his first 16 starts (3-13) - 56.7% completion rate and 26 tds and 28 ints.

Doug Williams - Super Bowl winner in his first 10 starts (4-6) - 37.6% completion rate and 7 tds and 8 ints.

Joe Namath - Super Bowl winner in his first 22 starts (8-11-3) - 48.8% completion rate and 37 tds and 42 ints.

Bob Griese - Super Bowl winner in his first 10 starts (3-7) - 50.2% completion rate and 15 tds and 18 ints.

John Elway - Super Bowl winner in his first 10 starts (4-6) - 47.5% completion rate and 7 tds and 14 ints.

Interesting numbers to say the least

All were threats to throw the ball. Some more than others. Tebow, not so much...

Mile High Mojoe
11-25-2011, 12:52 PM
You are defending making a division rival better. How intelligent.

Please explain in vivid detail how Orton makes the Chiefs better?

jhns
11-25-2011, 12:56 PM
Please explain in vivid detail how Orton makes the Chiefs better?

He is twice as good ss their other QB options. 1 + 1 = 7!

Play2win
11-25-2011, 01:02 PM
There is a movement in art, where grand masters make their art appear like student work. It's fun, refreshing and has its time, but it's Kitsch in nature. That is what watching the Denver Broncos (offense) is like right now. But I don't give a damn, as long as the wins keep coming.

mhgaffney
11-25-2011, 01:08 PM
Tebow's stats are astonishing --

The question is: Will this kid change the way the game is played?

Mile High Mojoe
11-25-2011, 01:14 PM
The NFL works in strange ways and these things have a tendency to bite teams in the ass. I am more comfortable facing a Palko led chiefs club. Not saying KO is going to change the world but he is better than Palko.


Granted but we've sat and watched Orton for 2 1/2 years underachieve over and over again. This one canít possibly bit us in the ass. The Chiefs OL is horrible, the running game sucks, Bowe is their only threat at WR and he hasnít showed up this year. So Iím relatively certain the Broncos are going to handle the Chiefs. If he were a QB with some talent we had traded the drama leading up to the game might matter and it could bit us in the ass.

If Broncos lose a game to Orton it would go down as one of biggest disasters ever and I canít believe for a second that the team isnít going to be just as motivated to pound him into the ground as any QB theyíve faced this season. Did you watch the 49ers/Ravens game yesterday? Same thing here, like Smith, Orton gets sacked 6 or 7 times in the game. I canít wait I hope he does start.

Jay3
11-25-2011, 01:16 PM
The NFL works in strange ways and these things have a tendency to bite teams in the ass. I am more comfortable facing a Palko led chiefs club. Not saying KO is going to change the world but he is better than Palko.

It's not just about Palko. Orton has 6 weeks to help the Chiefs game plan to try and beat the Broncos in the final game of the season, a game that could have postseason consequences for the Broncos.

It will be the ultimate signature moment for Elway if the Broncos have to win that one to make the playoffs -- whether or not the Broncos win, the stories that week in the media will make Elway come off like a douche.

Mile High Mojoe
11-25-2011, 01:18 PM
He is twice as good ss their other QB options. 1 + 1 = 7!

Loser - Loser = Loser

jhns
11-25-2011, 01:20 PM
Loser - Loser = Loser

You obviously haven't been paying attention the last few years. It gets a lot worse than Orton. Just ask Chris Simms...

You are hinestly arguing that it is ok to help a division rival. We all see were your loyalty lies...

Mile High Mojoe
11-25-2011, 01:23 PM
You obviously haven't been paying attention the last few years. It gets a lot worse than Orton. Just ask Chris Simms...

You are hinestly arguing that it is ok to help a division rival. We all see were your loyalty lies...

I've read your posts you and I are mostly in agreement on the Broncos and Tebow but on Orton I just see him being a total non-factor he doesn't have it in his gut.

epicSocialism4tw
11-25-2011, 01:37 PM
My guess is the stat was the 3rd down % for the first 3 qtrs of play. At one point we were 0-18. For whatever reason our offense is horrible for 3 qtrs.

The Broncos were 1/11 on third down going into the final drive of the Jets game, when they converted a couple more. Not a whole lot better, but it is better than what you thought.

On the "our offense is horrible for 3 qtrs" statement: The Broncos moved and posessed the ball for much of the first half against the Jets. Thats pretty dang good. They just didnt score a touchdown against a good Jets defense. It happens. This is the NFL and there are good defenses out there.

I guess people have already forgotten and defaulted to the general ignorant media spiel about this game, but Tebow had a solid first half passing the ball.

It was the third quarter and the beginning of the fourth quarter where he struggled.

Its also convenient to forget that McGahee had a bum wheel and wasnt playing well.

Agamemnon
11-25-2011, 01:40 PM
It's not just about Palko. Orton has 6 weeks to help the Chiefs game plan to try and beat the Broncos in the final game of the season, a game that could have postseason consequences for the Broncos.

It will be the ultimate signature moment for Elway if the Broncos have to win that one to make the playoffs -- whether or not the Broncos win, the stories that week in the media will make Elway come off like a douche.

The only way the Chiefs beat us in that game is through some dark magic that puts them more than two scores ahead late.

In a close game, Tebow >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Orton.

TonyR
11-25-2011, 04:30 PM
I live in reality.

Hilarious! So in your "reality" the Chiefs are now a big threat because they added Kyle Orton to their roster?!?

TonyR
11-25-2011, 04:36 PM
The Broncos moved and posessed the ball for much of the first half against the Jets. Thats pretty dang good.

Really?

In the first quarter we had drives of 59, 15, and 13 yards.
In the second quarter we had drives of 1, 0, and 9 yards.

So in your book 97 total yards is "pretty dang good"?

You know you can look stuff like this up before embarassing yourself, right?

Hilarious!

RaiderH8r
11-25-2011, 04:57 PM
Hilarious! So in your "reality" the Chiefs are now a big threat because they added Kyle Orton to their roster?!?

The chiefs could add the Brincos Tuesday lunch leftovers and it would make them a better team. Why? Because it has Broncos awesome.