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View Full Version : Justin Verlander wins MVP!!! and Cy Young.


Aftermath
11-21-2011, 12:46 PM
Thank goodness, he definitely deserves it, guaranteed win everytime he started. Im shocked it didnt go to a yankee or red sox.

houghtam
11-21-2011, 01:04 PM
Thank goodness, he definitely deserves it, guaranteed win everytime he started. Im shocked it didnt go to a yankee or red sox.

Agreed. He's the most dominant pitcher right now, and the MVP proves he's as good as advertised.

Great year for JV, and great year for the Tigers.

broncocalijohn
11-21-2011, 01:05 PM
To get both awards when you play only 20% of the games is pretty telling. He dominated this season. Congrats to him.

houghtam
11-21-2011, 01:07 PM
To get both awards when you play only 20% of the games is pretty telling. He dominated this season. Congrats to him.

Very true...however, I forget where I read it, but someone was saying that starting pitchers actually have more affect over the course of the season, given they face more plate appearances than most offensive players get.

Shotgun Willie
11-21-2011, 01:08 PM
Can't say I'm in favor of a starting pitcher winning MVP, but if one has to, he clearly deserved it.

Shotgun Willie
11-21-2011, 01:11 PM
Very true...however, I forget where I read it, but someone was saying that starting pitchers actually have more affect over the course of the season, given they face more plate appearances than most offensive players get.

Kind of an odd argument, unless they're talking strictly DHs. "Offensive" players technically are out there for every play that a pitcher is out there for (as well as all the ones they're not out there for) and can have a significant effect over an opponent's at bat.

Pseudofool
11-21-2011, 01:20 PM
Very true...however, I forget where I read it, but someone was saying that starting pitchers actually have more affect over the course of the season, given they face more plate appearances than most offensive players get.This is a good point, however players play defense for nearly every PA throughout the season. That's a factor you're not considering, or whoever you heard that from isn't.

ludo21
11-21-2011, 01:20 PM
wow, shocked that the conservative baseball gurus did this.

Congrats JV

houghtam
11-21-2011, 01:27 PM
This is a good point, however players play defense for nearly every PA throughout the season. That's a factor you're not considering, or whoever you heard that from isn't.

Yeah, but even if you add the amount of touches, most don't even come close to the amount that starting pitchers get. Like Willie said, it's an odd argument, but kind of the same line of thinking that gets QBs consideration for awards, not to mention high draft picks, etc. They're touching the ball every play, and have a direct effect on every pitch, not to mention plate appearance.

I'm not advocating starting pitchers being considered MORE than position players, just equal consideration.

If you watched him this year, JV deserved the award over anyone, regardless of position.

Shotgun Willie
11-21-2011, 01:35 PM
If touches are that important to their argument, then I'd like to know how they rank catchers. I'd argue that catchers have waaaaaay more influence over a game than the starting pitcher. And they're out there hitting and fielding every game or close to it.

Pseudofool
11-21-2011, 01:37 PM
If touches are that important to their argument, then I'd like to know how they rank catchers. I'd argue that catchers have waaaaaay more influence over a game than the starting pitcher. And they're out there hitting and fielding every game or close to it.

Right. You also don't need touches to influence the game as a defender.

Aftermath
11-21-2011, 01:52 PM
All I know is Justin Verlander deserved it. Like someone else said I too am shocked the conservative voters chose him.

houghtam
11-21-2011, 02:08 PM
So just out of curiosity, are you two arguing against pitchers being considered for the award? Do you feel someone other than Verlander should have won?

Shotgun Willie
11-21-2011, 02:16 PM
So just out of curiosity, are you two arguing against pitchers being considered for the award?

I am. I just can't see voting for a guy who was a big part in 24 of their victories, but had absolutely no part in over 70 of their victories.

Do you feel someone other than Verlander should have won?

Ellsbury would've gotten my vote.

campocorto
11-21-2011, 02:38 PM
I am. I just can't see voting for a guy who was a big part in 24 of their victories, but had absolutely no part in over 70 of their victories.

Ellsbury would've gotten my vote.

Regardless of his role, Verlander had a strong case for the MVP honor.

He tied Jose Bautista for best WAR (8.5) in the AL.

Ellsbury was deserving as well, but he probably got robbed of some higher votes when the Red Sox failed to make the postseason. Plus, he had to compete with teammates Dustin Pedroia and Adrian Gonzalez for votes.

Among the position players, there were too many candidates (Miguel Cabrera, Bautista, Curtis Granderson, Robinson Cano, Ian Kinsler, Michael Young), but not really one guy that everybody could agree on was the "hands down", best player. Another reason why Verlander won.

Dr. Broncenstein
11-21-2011, 02:47 PM
Someone wake me when they hand out awards for men's tennis and/or women's basketball.

campocorto
11-21-2011, 02:52 PM
If someone is going to complain about a pitcher winning the MVP, bring up Willie Hernandez (1984) or Dennis Ecklersley (1992). Those were questionable selections. Not Clemens (1986) or Verlander (2011).

SouthStndJunkie
11-21-2011, 02:54 PM
Props to Justin Verlander.

I think I probably watched every one of his starts this year and he absolutely dominated.

He picked the Tigers up and got them on track all year.

Watching him take the ball every 5th day this year was a real treat as a fan.

Without JV, the Tigers would have been a .500 team.

I think pitchers should be able to win the MVP in rare cases where they completely dominate....and JV did that this year.

DBroncos4life
11-21-2011, 03:15 PM
So do you guys think Cy Kershaw should win the NL MVP over Kemp?

campocorto
11-21-2011, 03:23 PM
So do you guys think Cy Kershaw should win the NL MVP over Kemp?

No, Kemp is clearly the best player in the National League. Ryan Braun, because he played for a contender, is the only one I can see taking the MVP from Kemp.

Verlander was head and shoulders above the next closest pitcher in the A.L.

Despite the pitching Triple Crown (Wins, ERA, K), Kershaw wasn't the consensus best pitcher in the Senior Circuit. One could make the argument that Roy Halladay was the better pitcher in 2011.

DBroncos4life
11-21-2011, 03:34 PM
No, Kemp is clearly the best player in the National League. Ryan Braun, because he played for a contender, is the only one I can see taking the MVP from Kemp.

Verlander was head and shoulders above the next closest pitcher in the A.L.

Despite the pitching Triple Crown (Wins, ERA, K), Kershaw wasn't the consensus best pitcher in the Senior Circuit. One could make the argument that Roy Halladay was the better pitcher in 2011.

I would like to see an arguement that has Halladay was a better pitcher. As you said he won the pitching Triple Crown on a team that was 3 games over .500. Halladay was a pitcher on a team that was 42 games over .500.

Kershaw was 12-3 with a 1.93 ERA in 18 starts this season against teams that finished the year with winning records. The Elias Sports Bureau notes that the only other pitcher with more than eight such wins this season was Ian Kennedy (9-2, 2.97 ERA in 14 starts). That is all you need to know about how good Kershaw was this year.

I think Kemp will win just thought I would see what others thought about Kershaw. He had Verlander had pretty close years in terms of numbers.

campocorto
11-21-2011, 03:45 PM
I would like to see an arguement that has Halladay was a better pitcher. As you said he won the pitching Triple Crown on a team that was 3 games over .500. Halladay was a pitcher on a team that was 42 games over .500.

Kershaw was 12-3 with a 1.93 ERA in 18 starts this season against teams that finished the year with winning records. The Elias Sports Bureau notes that the only other pitcher with more than eight such wins this season was Ian Kennedy (9-2, 2.97 ERA in 14 starts). That is all you need to know about how good Kershaw was this year.

I think Kemp will win just thought I would see what others thought about Kershaw. He had Verlander had pretty close years in terms of numbers.

The Halladay supporters are mostly stat geek types that point to him having fewer BB and HR allowed than Kershaw. Halladay also pitched at a less friendly home park than Kershaw.

http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/story/16151144/kershaw-not-my-choice-but-a-deserving-one-nonetheless

I still would have voted for Kershaw.

Pseudofool
11-21-2011, 05:47 PM
So just out of curiosity, are you two arguing against pitchers being considered for the award? Do you feel someone other than Verlander should have won?Not necessarily in the case, as there was no dominant hitter on a winning team (though I think his win total works unfairly in his favor...); but in other years, I'm not sure Verlander wins. Consider that Pedro Martinez never won an MVP award despite dominating during the steroid era--Pedro put up numbers that Verlander doesn't really touch in a tougher context. Look at those numbers from 1997 to 2003. http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/m/martipe02.shtml

HAT
11-21-2011, 06:12 PM
Verlander was head and shoulders above the next closest pitcher in the A.L.


???

Did his team win more games for him? Yes....But I would hardly call it head and shoulders better than Weaver's year.

ERA, WHIP, CG, SO, BAA are pretty much interchangeable.

Tigers hit .277 and scored 787 runs. Angels hit .253 and scored 667...There's your difference.

houghtam
11-21-2011, 08:43 PM
Not necessarily in the case, as there was no dominant hitter on a winning team (though I think his win total works unfairly in his favor...); but in other years, I'm not sure Verlander wins. Consider that Pedro Martinez never won an MVP award despite dominating during the steroid era--Pedro put up numbers that Verlander doesn't really touch in a tougher context. Look at those numbers from 1997 to 2003. http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/m/martipe02.shtml

To be fair, you're comparing years 5-11 with Verlander's 1-6. All signs are pointing to his improvement in the future, so there's no telling how they'll compare over the same part of their careers. Yours is a good argument, but not yet a fair argument.

houghtam
11-21-2011, 08:50 PM
???

Did his team win more games for him? Yes....But I would hardly call it head and shoulders better than Weaver's year.

ERA, WHIP, CG, SO, BAA are pretty much interchangeable.

Tigers hit .277 and scored 787 runs. Angels hit .253 and scored 667...There's your difference.

Guy was 16-3 following a Tigers loss. 18-3 from June on, finished the year 12-0. He was amazing in the clutch. He was the unanimous first choice of the Cy Young voters. I think that says something about how he compares to his competition.

HAT
11-21-2011, 08:59 PM
Guy was 16-3 following a Tigers loss. 18-3 from June on, finished the year 12-0. He was amazing in the clutch. He was the unanimous first choice of the Cy Young voters. I think that says something about how he compares to his competition.

Wasn't knocking JV at all and he deserves both awards he got...."Head and shoulders" better though is pure hyperbole.

houghtam
11-21-2011, 09:01 PM
Wasn't knocking JV at all and he deserves both awards he got...."Head and shoulders" better though is pure hyperbole.

I think it's fair to say that no other pitcher in the AL was in the discussion for the Cy Young.

HAT
11-21-2011, 09:17 PM
I think it's fair to say that no other pitcher in the AL was in the discussion for the Cy Young.

So do I.

It's also fair to say that he and Weaver had 2.40 & 2.41 ERAs respectively.

4 CG's each, 2 SO each, WHIPs around 1 & BAA around .200

The 6 win discrepancy is merely a function of their respective offenses.
25 points in BA & 120 runs is a huge difference.

You put either on the other team and their W/L's flip flop most likely.

campocorto
11-22-2011, 02:51 AM
???
Did his team win more games for him? Yes....But I would hardly call it head and shoulders better than Weaver's year.

ERA, WHIP, CG, SO, BAA are pretty much interchangeable.

Tigers hit .277 and scored 787 runs. Angels hit .253 and scored 667...There's your difference.

My basis for Verlander putting on that pedestal wasn't based on using traditional statistics like wins.

Strikeouts are interchangeable? Verlander fanned 255 (8.96 K/9 - 3rd AL) while Weaver struck out 198 in 235.2 IP (7.56 K/9 -15th AL). I know Weaver was the 2010 AL strikeout king, but last year he lost some of his dominance and he wasn't in Verlander's class. Verlander puts less balls in play and is less dependent on the success of his fielders to get outs.
gl

Simple Jake
11-22-2011, 03:57 AM
So just out of curiosity, are you two arguing against pitchers being considered for the award? Do you feel someone other than Verlander should have won?

My boy Jacoby had himself a season.. he'd have been my pick

HAT
11-22-2011, 06:22 AM
My basis for Verlander putting on that pedestal wasn't based on using traditional statistics like wins.

Strikeouts are interchangeable? Verlander fanned 255 (8.96 K/9 - 3rd AL) while Weaver struck out 198 in 235.2 IP (7.56 K/9 -15th AL). I know Weaver was the 2010 AL strikeout king, but last year he lost some of his dominance and he wasn't in Verlander's class. Verlander puts less balls in play and is less dependent on the success of his fielders to get outs.
gl

By SO, I was referring to shutouts.

Shotgun Willie
11-22-2011, 07:10 AM
To be fair, you're comparing years 5-11 with Verlander's 1-6. All signs are pointing to his improvement in the future, so there's no telling how they'll compare over the same part of their careers. Yours is a good argument, but not yet a fair argument.

What does any of that have to do with Verlander THIS year vs Pedro's 1999 season? Pedro not winning the MVP in 99 is one of the main reasons why I laugh any time a pitcher has been considered for the award since then.