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TheElusiveKyleOrton
11-22-2011, 08:04 AM
You don't need a PR class to learn common sense.

Common sense dictates that you keep all of your options open until you're certain you've got the answer in house. He's not certain the Broncos can win, consistently, for the next 10 years, running an option. He's not certain that Tebow's throwing ability will improve enough to run a traditional offense.

So common sense dictates that he look at all of his options.

Common sense does not dictate calling the greatest hero in team history "trash" because he doesn't see eye to eye with you that "ZOMG TIM TEBOWZ IS DA BEST EVAR!"

*note: "you" does not refer to "you," Rev, but rather to the mouth-breathing troglodyte who tweeted that Elway is a piece of trash.

Also, the idea of a PR class wasn't MY idea. I think it's ****ing retarded. Ol'#7 thinks our FO should enroll in PR classes rather than run the team, since feelings keep getting hurt. Makes perfect sense.

jhns
11-22-2011, 08:07 AM
Common sense dictates that you keep all of your options open until you're certain you've got the answer in house. He's not certain the Broncos can win, consistently, for the next 10 years, running an option. He's not certain that Tebow's throwing ability will improve enough to run a traditional offense.

So common sense dictates that he look at all of his options.

Common sense does not dictate calling the greatest hero in team history "trash" because he doesn't see eye to eye with you that "ZOMG TIM TEBOWZ IS DA BEST EVAR!"

*note: "you" does not refer to "you," Rev, but rather to the mouth-breathing troglodyte who tweeted that Elway is a piece of trash.

Also, the idea of a PR class wasn't MY idea. I think it's ****ing retarded. Ol'#7 thinks our FO should enroll in PR classes rather than run the team, since feelings keep getting hurt. Makes perfect sense.

Keeping options open like: Orton gives us the best chance to win. He is our starting QB. ?

ol#7
11-22-2011, 08:08 AM
The entire NFL with it summer lockout essentially pissed all over the common fan. Despite that, they almost all came back and nobody's sellout streaks have been effected. People are weak and will continue to fill the stands and gobble up merchandise no matter what these morons in the suits say or do. It's too bad really. This was the fan's chance to speak up and be heard, and while there was lots of tough talk from some over the summer about sticking it to the NFL, when it really came time to put up or shut up, they shut up.

Why should the fans be pissed. We lost the Hall of Fame game. Its not like the SB was cancelled.

That said, the Broncos were in danger of becoming irrelevant. The FO did themselves no favors with the tactics they employed.

Wasnt and isnt necessary.

BroncoBeavis
11-22-2011, 08:10 AM
So common sense dictates that he look at all of his options.

Look at the options? ...absolutely. Sandbag the rook who is CURRENTLY your only real option? Moronic.

Elway needs to watch more Rams or Vikings games for some context.

ol#7
11-22-2011, 08:11 AM
Common sense dictates that you keep all of your options open until you're certain you've got the answer in house. He's not certain the Broncos can win, consistently, for the next 10 years, running an option. He's not certain that Tebow's throwing ability will improve enough to run a traditional offense.

So common sense dictates that he look at all of his options.

Common sense does not dictate calling the greatest hero in team history "trash" because he doesn't see eye to eye with you that "ZOMG TIM TEBOWZ IS DA BEST EVAR!"

*note: "you" does not refer to "you," Rev, but rather to the mouth-breathing troglodyte who tweeted that Elway is a piece of trash.

Also, the idea of a PR class wasn't MY idea. I think it's ****ing retarded. Ol'#7 thinks our FO should enroll in PR classes rather than run the team, since feelings keep getting hurt. Makes perfect sense.

Nobody is saying Tebow is the best ever. Not one post to that effect has been made.

To be a front line exec. who talks to the media, you should be able to do so while deflecting controversy, not creating it.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
11-22-2011, 08:12 AM
Look at the options? ...absolutely. Sandbag the rook who is CURRENTLY your only real option? Moronic.

Elway needs to watch more Rams or Vikings games for some context.

HOW THE **** IS HE SANDBAGGING? Seriously. Answer me that. What quote is him sandbagging Tebow?

Jesus ****ing Christ. Just STOP. Elway wants a guy who can throw the ball. Right now, Tim is not very good at throwing the ball. That's not sandbagging.

I guess you'd rather Elway go on the air and blow sunshine up your ass... right up until he drafts a new quarterback who can throw ANYWAY.

TheReverend
11-22-2011, 08:12 AM
Common sense dictates that you keep all of your options open until you're certain you've got the answer in house. He's not certain the Broncos can win, consistently, for the next 10 years, running an option. He's not certain that Tebow's throwing ability will improve enough to run a traditional offense.

So common sense dictates that he look at all of his options.

Common sense does not dictate calling the greatest hero in team history "trash" because he doesn't see eye to eye with you that "ZOMG TIM TEBOWZ IS DA BEST EVAR!"

*note: "you" does not refer to "you," Rev, but rather to the mouth-breathing troglodyte who tweeted that Elway is a piece of trash.

Also, the idea of a PR class wasn't MY idea. I think it's ****ing retarded. Ol'#7 thinks our FO should enroll in PR classes rather than run the team, since feelings keep getting hurt. Makes perfect sense.

Of course he should look at all his options. But you can't say his comments to the press haven't been anything shy of flat out retarded.

jhns
11-22-2011, 08:14 AM
HOW THE **** IS HE SANDBAGGING? Seriously. Answer me that. What quote is him sandbagging Tebow?

Jesus ****ing Christ. Just STOP. Elway wants a guy who can throw the ball. Right now, Tim is not very good at throwing the ball. That's not sandbagging.

I guess you'd rather Elway go on the air and blow sunshine up your ass... right up until he drafts a new quarterback who can throw ANYWAY.

Stupid ass Orton fanboys...

TheElusiveKyleOrton
11-22-2011, 08:16 AM
Of course he should look at all his options. But you can't say his comments to the press haven't been anything shy of flat out retarded.

Granted, I haven't heard every comment to the press, but I don't think he's said anything dishonest, or wrong. Tim has work to do. True? Tim isn't a traditional quarterback. True? He's improving. True? He needs to keep improving. True?

How about this, Rev. How about you tell us what you want Elway to say to the press. What would put YOU at ease.

I'm not trying to rip on you, and I'm not planning to rip on you. I'm just legitimately curious.

Would it be better if Elway just blew sunshine up your ass, neglected his responsibility to the team by not going to see these other players, then ended up drafting a quarterback anyway?

TheElusiveKyleOrton
11-22-2011, 08:17 AM
Stupid ass Orton fanboys...

So you don't have an example of him sandbagging Tebow? Just more of your patented rip on other fans bull****?

Awesome. Welcome to ignore.

Shotgun Willie
11-22-2011, 08:19 AM
Why should the fans be pissed. We lost the Hall of Fame game. Its not like the SB was cancelled.


People think that because no regular season games were cancelled, that nothing was lost. I disagree, particularly when it comes to the Broncos. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say Orton wouldn't have started the season if there was no lockout. That alone would've changed everything IMO. The lockout hurt teams like us who were going through coaching changes, system changes, QB changes, etc.

The lockout may not have resulted in lost games, but it sure changed the landscape of the league as a whole (some teams more than others obviously).

And, speaking personally, I enjoy the offseason stuff almost as much as the inseason stuff. And this was taken away from me. They should pay for that IMO.

jhns
11-22-2011, 08:20 AM
So you don't have an example of him sandbagging Tebow? Just more of your patented rip on other fans bull****?

Awesome. Welcome to ignore.

I've gone over it multiple times. You still aren't backing your lie.

I really wish you would just keep me on ignore then. Why are you such a drama queen about it?

BroncoBeavis
11-22-2011, 08:21 AM
Jesus ****ing Christ. Just STOP. Elway wants a guy who can throw the ball. Right now, Tim is not very good at throwing the ball. That's not sandbagging.

You're not going to improve a QB's passing with 8-attempt games. Ponder's getting 30 or so a game, and believe me, he's not earning them. Same with Bradford. McCoy had 61 passing attempts one game. 61... and the team scored 13 points.

TheReverend
11-22-2011, 08:23 AM
Granted, I haven't heard every comment to the press, but I don't think he's said anything dishonest, or wrong. Tim has work to do. True? Tim isn't a traditional quarterback. True? He's improving. True? He needs to keep improving. True?

How about this, Rev. How about you tell us what you want Elway to say to the press. What would put YOU at ease.

I'm not trying to rip on you, and I'm not planning to rip on you. I'm just legitimately curious.

Would it be better if Elway just blew sunshine up your ass, neglected his responsibility to the team by not going to see these other players, then ended up drafting a quarterback anyway?

I'm not saying he should be convinced or even express to the media that he's convinced. That being said if he really believes that they aren't any closer to knowing who the QB will be next year than they were 6 weeks ago, then he's a ****ing idiot. Period.

Dr. Broncenstein
11-22-2011, 08:25 AM
Would it be too much to ask the front office to publicly say that Tebow is the unquestioned leader of the offense, and he gives the team the best chance to win now?

TheReverend
11-22-2011, 08:32 AM
Would it be too much to ask the front office to publicly say that Tebow is the unquestioned leader of the offense, and he gives the team the best chance to win now?

They can only go to bat for the quarterback when he's turning the ball over like hot cakes and losing.

Turd_Ferguson
11-22-2011, 08:33 AM
So correct me if I'm wrong. When Orton was the QB the FO said that he was the best chance to win. Everyone on here had a fit. Oh My God they think we are retarded... I cant believe they aren't shooting us straight and telling us Orton sucks (which he clearly did).

I for one felt insulted when they told me pocket sloth was the best they could do. I would feel equally insulted if Elway got up there and said Tebow is the man going forward. At this point, he clearly is not. Everyone may want him to be the guy, but he isn't. The guy running the team just said it. I'm glad he said it, cause its true. He's not here to make Tebow feel better about himself, he is here to build a championship team.

Besides Elway specifically said that Tebow is getting better every week, but he wasn't there yet. . . Wasn't like he called him a piece of trash.

Shotgun Willie
11-22-2011, 08:34 AM
Would it be too much to ask the front office to publicly say that Tebow is the unquestioned leader of the offense, and he gives the team the best chance to win now?

To be fair, don't they do that every time they release the weekly depth charts?

jhns
11-22-2011, 08:34 AM
So correct me if I'm wrong. When Orton was the QB the FO said that he was the best chance to win. Everyone on here had a fit. Oh My God they think we are retarded... I cant believe they aren't shooting us straight and telling us Orton sucks (which he clearly did).

I for one felt insulted when they told me pocket sloth was the best they could do. I would feel equally insulted if Elway got up there and said Tebow is the man going forward. At this point, he clearly is not. Everyone may want him to be the guy, but he isn't. The guy running the team just said it. I'm glad he said it, cause its true. He's not here to make Tebow feel better about himself, he is here to build a championship team.

Besides Elway specifically said that Tebow is getting better every week, but he wasn't there yet. . . Wasn't like he called him a piece of trash.

No one has comllained about him not being named the QB of the future. Not one poster.

Turd_Ferguson
11-22-2011, 08:50 AM
I'm not saying he should be convinced or even express to the media that he's convinced. That being said if he really believes that they aren't any closer to knowing who the QB will be next year than they were 6 weeks ago, then he's a ****ing idiot. Period.

So there ya go if you don't think they have their quarterback of next year, you're a ****ing idiot. That makes all the sense in the world (that's sarcasm, that comment is ****ing stupid)

TheReverend
11-22-2011, 08:53 AM
So there ya go if you don't think they have their quarterback of next year, you're a ****ing idiot. That makes all the sense in the world (that's sarcasm, that comment is ****ing stupid)

Yes. That's exactly what I said.

Learn to read, dip****.

jhns
11-22-2011, 08:53 AM
So there ya go if you don't think they have their quarterback of next year, you're a ****ing idiot. That makes all the sense in the world (that's sarcasm, that comment is ****ing stupid)

That isn't what he said raider fan.

Dr. Broncenstein
11-22-2011, 08:59 AM
To be fair, don't they do that every time they release the weekly depth charts?

Uh no. No they don't. They tripped over their own d!cks to back Orton when it was obvious in the preseason that he was going to continue his bed shiatting ways during live play... and that there would be no competition in their "open competition." They continued their public support when Orton was bumbling away winnable games against Oakland and Tennessee. The entire season has gone from unmitigated disaster to exciting with the addition of a possible post season run... and the front office "doesn't know anything more about the QB situation" other than "he would be screwed if he played in a real offense."

Turd_Ferguson
11-22-2011, 09:00 AM
That isn't what he said raider fan.

You have some tebow batter on your chin.

jhns
11-22-2011, 09:04 AM
You have some tebow batter on your chin.

Poor raider fan can never have nothing!

Typical raider fan proves he can't read.

Turd_Ferguson
11-22-2011, 09:05 AM
Yes. That's exactly what I said.

Learn to read, dip****.

How would they be close to knowing who the QB is going to be next year?? They haven't finished the season, they havent had free agency, they haven't had the draft, they haven't had Mini Camp, they haven't had preseason..

If you aren't hinting that they should be leaning more and more towards Tebow since he is winning games what are you saying? Anyone from the front office that jumped on the Tebow boat would be a ****ing idiot.. What if he looks terrible the rest of the way and they lose out. Then your the idiot that said he was looking good. Until he stops sucking on third down, why is it bad to say he sucks on third down?

Shotgun Willie
11-22-2011, 09:06 AM
Uh no. No they don't. "

Look, I understand there's a huge difference in the way they supported Orton vs Tebow, but that's a different issue. I was simply stating the fact that when you name someone the starter, then you by definition are stating your opinion (without explicitly stating it) that that person is the one that will lead your offense and is the one that gives you the best chance to win. Just because they didn't go out of their way to pump his tires to the media like they did with Orton, that doesn't mean they don't view him as the best chance to win now.

Turd_Ferguson
11-22-2011, 09:07 AM
Poor raider fan can never have nothing!

Typical raider fan proves he can't read.

what was it like being Tebows first lover?

TheElusiveKyleOrton
11-22-2011, 09:08 AM
I'm not saying he should be convinced or even express to the media that he's convinced. That being said if he really believes that they aren't any closer to knowing who the QB will be next year than they were 6 weeks ago, then he's a ****ing idiot. Period.

They may be more convinced about who the quarterback will be next year, but not convinced about after that.

Having two quarterbacks on the roster, both of whom are good enough to be a starter, is a good thing, not a bad thing. Maybe he's keeping his options open there. Bring in another top quality QB, a pass-heavy guy, and let him and Tebow fight it out in camp.

There's any number of things that are likely going on behind the scenes, not one of them makes Elway "a ****ing idiot."

it could also be a total smokescreen to hide our intentions for the draft.

See, they've got the information, and you don't. They see Tim in practice, and you don't. They have a draft board already formulated, and you don't. They have a plan that can be implemented because they're in the building, and you don't, because you aren't.

Kind of silly to get all riled up because John Elway isn't picking up Pom Poms or renting space on billboards for Tim. I honestly think the folks on the mane would prefer to be lied to by the FO, just to avoid hurting Tim's feelings.

jhns
11-22-2011, 09:08 AM
How would they be close to knowing who the QB is going to be next year?? They haven't finished the season, they havent had free agency, they haven't had the draft, they haven't had Mini Camp, they haven't had preseason..

If you aren't hinting that they should be leaning more and more towards Tebow since he is winning games what are you saying? Anyone from the front office that jumped on the Tebow boat would be a ****ing idiot.. What if he looks terrible the rest of the way and they lose out. Then your the idiot that said he was looking good. Until he stops sucking on third down, why is it bad to say he sucks on third down?

He didn't say they should be close. It is pretty clear that he said "closer". This is a relative term. That means that they should probably be taking something away from all this play time...

Are raider fans not allowed in school?

maher_tyler
11-22-2011, 09:08 AM
LOL You guys and your overreaction to things. Where did anybody blame Tebow? Again, he's winning and doing some good things but that doesn't mean he doesn't need to improve. That's all Elway is saying. Why is this so difficult? Yes, play calling is a factor. That needs to get better, too. If/when Tebow gets benched you'll have a case that he isn't being supported. Until then he's the starting QB of the Denver Broncos and Elway has every right to have high expectations. You should, too.

I'm not saying he doesn't need to improve. Which he needs to. I'm just stating i don't think it's entirely Tebow's fault we're terrible on 3rd downs.

DrFate
11-22-2011, 09:08 AM
so there is not one scenario other than injury that Tebow should be replaced in a game?

Errand - before you post, you should repeat '4-1' two or three times to yourself. Then decide if your post is worthwhile.

Kthxbye

TheElusiveKyleOrton
11-22-2011, 09:09 AM
Would it be too much to ask the front office to publicly say that Tebow is the unquestioned leader of the offense, and he gives the team the best chance to win now?

Would it be too much to ask the media to ask that question?

I think that would be a fair answer, and I think he'd answer that way if the question was asked that way. But it hasn't been.

jhns
11-22-2011, 09:10 AM
what was it like being Tebows first lover?

Says the uneducated clown.

Dr. Broncenstein
11-22-2011, 09:10 AM
They may be more convinced about who the quarterback will be next year, but not convinced about after that.

Having two quarterbacks on the roster, both of whom are good enough to be a starter, is a good thing, not a bad thing. Maybe he's keeping his options open there. Bring in another top quality QB, a pass-heavy guy, and let him and Tebow fight it out in camp.

There's any number of things that are likely going on behind the scenes, not one of them makes Elway "a ****ing idiot."

it could also be a total smokescreen to hide our intentions for the draft.

See, they've got the information, and you don't. They see Tim in practice, and you don't. They have a draft board already formulated, and you don't. They have a plan that can be implemented because they're in the building, and you don't, because you aren't.

Kind of silly to get all riled up because John Elway isn't picking up Pom Poms or renting space on billboards for Tim. I honestly think the folks on the mane would prefer to be lied to by the FO, just to avoid hurting Tim's feelings.

Well it would at least be a consistent with the way they publicly lied about Orton to avoid hurting his feelings.

Shotgun Willie
11-22-2011, 09:13 AM
I think that would be a fair answer, and I think he'd answer that way if the question was asked that way. But it hasn't been.

Again, why do they even have to ask it? Isn't it IMPLIED when they made him the #1? Unless you think a team is intentionally trying to throw games for a better draft pick or whatever, then it's clear that your #1 is the guy that you think is the one who gives you the best chance to win games.

Honestly, who's ever going to tell a reporter "yup, we're making this guy the #1 even though we think he doesn't give us the best chance to win games."

jhns
11-22-2011, 09:13 AM
Well it would at least be a consistent with the way they publicly lied about Orton to avoid hurting his feelings.

It is pretty clear that they were stupid enough to actually believe what they were selling with Orton. It makes me sad.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
11-22-2011, 09:14 AM
Well it would at least be a consistent with the way they publicly lied about Orton to avoid hurting his feelings.

I'm not sure you can make that claim. We ran a passing offense. Tim isn't very good in a passing offense. In a passing offense, Orton really WAS our best chance to win.

Then he failed, they had no choice, and Tebow was put in. Into a passing offense. Where he didn't look very good.

It was only when they went to a run-heavy offense with passes mixed in that Tebow gave us the best chance to win.

I know it's a losing proposition to be fair to everyone involved here; I mean, this is the Mane.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
11-22-2011, 09:15 AM
Again, why do they even have to ask it? Isn't it IMPLIED when they made him the #1? Unless you think a team is intentionally trying to throw games for a better draft pick or whatever, then it's clear that your #1 is the guy that you think is the one who gives you the best chance to win games.

Honestly, who's ever going to tell a reporter "yup, we're making this guy the #1 even though we think he doesn't give us the best chance to win games."

That's a good point. At some juncture, it's people on the Mane wanting a vote of confidence that they already received when Tebow was made the starter.

TheReverend
11-22-2011, 09:15 AM
How would they be close to knowing who the QB is going to be next year?? They haven't finished the season, they havent had free agency, they haven't had the draft, they haven't had Mini Camp, they haven't had preseason..

If you aren't hinting that they should be leaning more and more towards Tebow since he is winning games what are you saying? Anyone from the front office that jumped on the Tebow boat would be a ****ing idiot.. What if he looks terrible the rest of the way and they lose out. Then your the idiot that said he was looking good. Until he stops sucking on third down, why is it bad to say he sucks on third down?

"CloseR" not "close".

Oh and I dunno... because now they've seen him start in this system and not just play some snaps at WR you moron.

Dr. Broncenstein
11-22-2011, 09:15 AM
It is pretty clear that they were stupid enough to actually believe what they were selling with Orton. It makes me sad.

There is no way in hell they believed that Orton won some kind of "open competition" for the starting job. There was no competition.

DrFate
11-22-2011, 09:16 AM
I'm not sure you can make that claim. We ran a passing offense. Tim isn't very good in a passing offense. In a passing offense, Orton really WAS our best chance to win.

I'll give you the same advice I gave to errand.

Repeat '4-1' a few times before posts like this. You can thank me later.

Look at Orton's W-L record over his past 20 or so starts. Then justify ANY of the 'best chance to win' comments.

TheReverend
11-22-2011, 09:16 AM
They may be more convinced about who the quarterback will be next year, but not convinced about after that.

Having two quarterbacks on the roster, both of whom are good enough to be a starter, is a good thing, not a bad thing. Maybe he's keeping his options open there. Bring in another top quality QB, a pass-heavy guy, and let him and Tebow fight it out in camp.

There's any number of things that are likely going on behind the scenes, not one of them makes Elway "a ****ing idiot."

it could also be a total smokescreen to hide our intentions for the draft.

See, they've got the information, and you don't. They see Tim in practice, and you don't. They have a draft board already formulated, and you don't. They have a plan that can be implemented because they're in the building, and you don't, because you aren't.

Kind of silly to get all riled up because John Elway isn't picking up Pom Poms or renting space on billboards for Tim. I honestly think the folks on the mane would prefer to be lied to by the FO, just to avoid hurting Tim's feelings.

I remember when you used the same argument to support Orton starting and Tebow not getting any kind of fair shake through the preseason.

Awesome track record you have going there.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
11-22-2011, 09:16 AM
There is no way in hell they believed that Orton won some kind of "open competition" for the starting job. There was no competition.

Hooray for rehashing old talking points.

KO5K
11-22-2011, 09:17 AM
I'm not sure you can make that claim. We ran a passing offense. Tim isn't very good in a passing offense. In a passing offense, Orton really WAS our best chance to win.

Then he failed, they had no choice, and Tebow was put in. Into a passing offense. Where he didn't look very good.



EFX obviously forgot to include the passing offense disclaimer when they continually spouted "Orton gives us the best chance to win".

Dedhed
11-22-2011, 09:17 AM
HOW THE **** IS HE SANDBAGGING? Seriously. Answer me that. What quote is him sandbagging Tebow?

Jesus ****ing Christ. Just STOP. Elway wants a guy who can throw the ball. Right now, Tim is not very good at throwing the ball. That's not sandbagging.

I guess you'd rather Elway go on the air and blow sunshine up your ass... right up until he drafts a new quarterback who can throw ANYWAY.

So you're saying that it's common sense to make a pretty pass more important than winning.

I'd rather Elway accept what's staring him in the face; there is something about Tebow that is more important than pretty passes.

jhns
11-22-2011, 09:17 AM
I'm not sure you can make that claim. We ran a passing offense. Tim isn't very good in a passing offense. In a passing offense, Orton really WAS our best chance to win.

Then he failed, they had no choice, and Tebow was put in. Into a passing offense. Where he didn't look very good.

It was only when they went to a run-heavy offense with passes mixed in that Tebow gave us the best chance to win.

I know it's a losing proposition to be fair to everyone involved here; I mean, this is the Mane.

LOL

Wtf?

Tebows better win % in that offense says you are still being retarded.

TonyR
11-22-2011, 09:17 AM
Well it would at least be a consistent with the way they publicly lied about Orton to avoid hurting his feelings.

Different people need to be motivated in different ways. Perhaps Orton needed to be loved and coddled whereas Tebow needs to be challenged. Also not crazy to suggest that veterans get treated differently than rookies and youngsters. Again, I think Tebow can handle both the criticism and the suggestion that he needs to improve. He's a tough kid and he's spent a lot of time on this road. But kewl of you to keep looking out for him...

TheElusiveKyleOrton
11-22-2011, 09:19 AM
I'll give you the same advice I gave to errand.

Repeat '4-1' a few times before posts like this. You can thank me later.

Look at Orton's W-L record over his past 20 or so starts. Then justify ANY of the 'best chance to win' comments.

And since you missed the point completely, I'll go a little slower for you this time.

When Tebow

was put into

an offense

that required timing in the passing game

as well as protection from the line,

he failed.

It was only when

the offense was completely changed around

that Tebow started finding consistent success

operating in a shotgun option offense.

So, in the original offense

the offense the team was originally going to run,

Orton gave them the best chance to win.

He didn't make the most of his opportunity.

He failed miserably.

Tebow was inserted.

But only after changing the offense around COMPLETELY

to fit his strengths,

did Tebow find success.

Was that slow enough? Do I need to make you a flow chart?

Dr. Broncenstein
11-22-2011, 09:19 AM
Different people need to be motivated in different ways. Perhaps Orton needed to be loved and coddled whereas Tebow needs to be challenged. Also not crazy to suggest that veterans get treated differently than rookies and youngsters. Again, I think Tebow can handle both the criticism and the suggestion that he needs to improve. He's a tough kid and he's spent a lot of time on this road. But kewl of you to keep looking out for him...

So it's a motivational ploy to motivate the most self motivated player on the team? Interesting.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
11-22-2011, 09:20 AM
So you're saying that it's common sense to make a pretty pass more important than winning.

I'd rather Elway accept what's staring him in the face; there is something about Tebow that is more important than pretty passes.

That's not remotely what I'm saying. Another swing and a miss. Shocker.

DrFate
11-22-2011, 09:21 AM
there is something about Tebow that is more important than pretty passes.

And that's the most important point - will Elway give Tebow time to develop into a 'prettier passer'?

The whole thing is confusing to me. You don't see the Jags trying to run Gabbert out of town. You don't see the Vikings looking to replace Ponder. You don't see the Panthers down on Newton after a 4 INT game this weekend.

Those guys aren't doing any better than Tebow in the 'passing is pretty' department. And Tebow has demonstrated something that none of those guys has, to date. But their front office people are all saying the right things and these players are being given time to develop.

Dedhed
11-22-2011, 09:21 AM
I'm not sure you can make that claim. We ran a passing offense. Tim isn't very good in a passing offense. In a passing offense, Orton really WAS our best chance to win.

Then he failed, they had no choice, and Tebow was put in. Into a passing offense. Where he didn't look very good.

It was only when they went to a run-heavy offense with passes mixed in that Tebow gave us the best chance to win.

I know it's a losing proposition to be fair to everyone involved here; I mean, this is the Mane.So Tebow putting up more points and having a better win % confirms that Orton gave us the best chance to win in that offense. You're just as daft as daft can be aren't you?

Give it up. You make yourself look worse with every post.

jhns
11-22-2011, 09:21 AM
And since you missed the point completely, I'll go a little slower for you this time.

When Tebow

was put into

an offense

that required timing in the passing game

as well as protection from the line,

he failed.

It was only when

the offense was completely changed around

that Tebow started finding consistent success

operating in a shotgun option offense.

So, in the original offense

the offense the team was originally going to run,

Orton gave them the best chance to win.

He didn't make the most of his opportunity.

He failed miserably.

Tebow was inserted.

But only after changing the offense around COMPLETELY

to fit his strengths,

did Tebow find success.

Was that slow enough? Do I need to make you a flow chart?

Tebow had a better win % in that offense than Orton. You are still being an idiot. Nothing you say jives with what actually happened.

Dedhed
11-22-2011, 09:23 AM
And that's the most important point - will Elway give Tebow time to develop into a 'prettier passer'?

The whole thing is confusing to me. You don't see the Jags trying to run Gabbert out of town. You don't see the Vikings looking to replace Ponder. You don't see the Panthers down on Newton after a 4 INT game this weekend.

Those guys aren't doing any better than Tebow in the 'passing is pretty' department. And Tebow has demonstrated something that none of those guys has, to date. But their front office people are all saying the right things and these players are being given time to develop.
It really does completely defy any sort of logic. You didn't see the Broncos trying to run Elway out of town when his numbers were worse across the board than Tebow's through an equal number of starts.

I really don't get it.

errand
11-22-2011, 09:25 AM
Man I wish Timmy would just go out and rape some women or kill a few dogs so everybody would just give him a chance.

We are winning games, why would you want to screw with that ?

Ok...sure. How about you volunteering up your mom, wife, or daughter...and your mutt?

I hope you're kidding like I am...

DrFate
11-22-2011, 09:25 AM
Orton gave them the best chance to win.


4-14 the last 2 seasons (after closing the 2009 season at a 2-8 clip)

They could play these games on Mars and run the single wing - I have nfc how Orton gives you 'the best chance to win' anything but the Luck sweepstakes.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
11-22-2011, 09:25 AM
I really don't get it.

It's because you're really not smart.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
11-22-2011, 09:26 AM
4-14 the last 2 seasons (after closing the 2009 season at a 2-8 clip)

They could play these games on Mars and run the single win - I have nfc how Orton gives you 'the best chance to win' anything but the Luck sweepstakes.

Ah yes. Removing context and trying to make hay. You're adorable. And, evidently, 12.

Shotgun Willie
11-22-2011, 09:27 AM
So it's a motivational ploy to motivate the most self motivated player on the team? Interesting.

Is he? I don't think so.

Almost every commercial I see of him or interview I saw of him before being drafted focused exclusively on his motivation to prove the doubters wrong. He obviously feeds off of it.

maher_tyler
11-22-2011, 09:27 AM
I understand that this is a message board and not everyone is going to agree with everything.

But why can't we agree that we are 4-1 in the last game dude to these facts: The offense isn't turning the ball over multiple times a game, the D is playing better/getting off the field on 3rd down etc, ST is playing better.

The fact of the matter is we DO need to get better on 3rd down. Our 3rd down failures aren't completely Tebow's fault. Why can't we agree on that? It's plain to see the play calling is as predicable as it gets. Guys have dropped the ball and not ran to or past the sticks. And of course, Tebow has badly missed some guys. It's a combination of all these things. Hopfully we get it figured out.

Dedhed
11-22-2011, 09:27 AM
That's not remotely what I'm saying. Another swing and a miss. Shocker.
Actually, it's exactly what you're saying, whether you get that or not. You're a clearly unable to comprehend reality, and even your own posts.

Stick with that "Orton gave us the best chance" take though, I think you're on to something there.

Turd_Ferguson
11-22-2011, 09:28 AM
"CloseR" not "close".

Oh and I dunno... because now they've seen him start in this system and not just play some snaps at WR you moron.

Your right I am a moron and so is Elway. He should have said Tebow looks like **** we are back to square one again. He should have said when Tebow is out there is looks like we resigned hillis and put him at quarterback. Hell no we arent CLOSER we are farther away! We need to draft a QB.

They all got to see him in practice and said he wasn't good enough to start over Orton. Orton was total garbage. That should tell you they have a similar opinion of Tebow. You are no different than the people that supported Orton.

DrFate
11-22-2011, 09:28 AM
Ah yes. Removing context and trying to make hay. You're adorable. And, evidently, 12.

What is the context you feel I'm missing?

Orton was 1-4 with this very team, the other guy was 4-1 (except Orton had Lloyd and the other guy didn't)

The quality of this board gets worse every day.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
11-22-2011, 09:29 AM
I understand that this is a message board and not everyone is going to agree with everything.

But why can't we agree that we are 4-1 in the last game dude to these facts: The offense isn't turning the ball over multiple times a game, the D is playing better/getting off the field on 3rd down etc, ST is playing better.

The fact of the matter is we DO need to get better on 3rd down. Our 3rd down failures aren't completely Tebow's fault. Why can't we agree on that? It's plain to see the play calling is as predicable as it gets. Guys have dropped the ball and not ran to or past the sticks. And of course, Tebow has badly missed some guys. It's a combination of all these things. Hopfully we get it figured out.

I agree with everything in this post.

Unfortunately, it doesn't address the central theme of the thread. Which is "ZOMG ELWAY IS TALKING MAD **** ABOUT TEBOW ALL THE TIME WHY DOES HE HATE TIM AND JESUS AND BLOWJOBS?"

Shotgun Willie
11-22-2011, 09:30 AM
But why can't we agree that we are 4-1 in the last game dude to these facts: The offense isn't turning the ball over multiple times a game, the D is playing better/getting off the field on 3rd down etc, ST is playing better.

I honestly don't think anyone here disagrees with that. Anyone? If you do disagree, please let it be known here.

The fact of the matter is we DO need to get better on 3rd down. Our 3rd down failures aren't completely Tebow's fault. Why can't we agree on that?

Same here.

DrFate
11-22-2011, 09:30 AM
But why can't we agree that we are 4-1 in the last game dude to these facts: The offense isn't turning the ball over multiple times a game, the D is playing better/getting off the field on 3rd down etc, ST is playing better.

The fact of the matter is we DO need to get better on 3rd down. Our 3rd down failures aren't completely Tebow's fault. Why can't we agree on that? It's plain to see the play calling is as predicable as it gets. Guys have dropped the ball and not ran to or past the sticks. And of course, Tebow has badly missed some guys. It's a combination of all these things. Hopfully we get it figured out.

I can agree with all of this. I have no idea why the anti-Tebow crowd doesn't acknowledge the fact that he doesn't throw picks, where those lovely Orton spirals were often to the guys in the wrong colors. That alone has made a huge difference.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
11-22-2011, 09:30 AM
What is the context you feel I'm missing?

Orton was 1-4 with this very team, the other guy was 4-1 (except Orton had Lloyd and the other guy didn't)

The quality of this board gets worse every day.

Well, let's see. You removed all but one sentence of a five paragraph post. So... yeah.

Context.

Dedhed
11-22-2011, 09:31 AM
It's because you're really not smart.

And in your next post you try to degrade someone by calling them twelve. Yeah, you're a genius.

"Orton gave us the best chance to win" signed TEKO.

I wish I could be as smart as you.

DrFate
11-22-2011, 09:32 AM
Well, let's see. You removed all but one sentence of a five paragraph post. So... yeah.

Context.

I was trying to save you the embarrassment (and the other posters the pain) of reading those five paragraphs of claptrap. You are welcome, btw.

jhns
11-22-2011, 09:33 AM
Your right I am a moron

At least you are starting to get it.

The guy that wins more = the guy that gives us the best chance.

I get that this is far too complicated for uneducated raider fan. It is funny seeing you get mad about us winning.

zdoor
11-22-2011, 09:33 AM
I agree with everything in this post.

Unfortunately, it doesn't address the central theme of the thread. Which is "ZOMG ELWAY IS TALKING MAD **** ABOUT TEBOW ALL THE TIME WHY DOES HE HATE TIM AND JESUS AND BLOWJOBS?"

When did Elway denounce BJ's.... What is the world coming too?

TheElusiveKyleOrton
11-22-2011, 09:33 AM
And in your next post you try to degrade someone by calling them twelve. Yeah, you're a genius.

"Orton gave us the best chance to win" signed TEKO.

I wish I could be as smart as you.

Are you and Dr. Fate roommates? Neither of you understands context whatsoever.

Other than that, though, totally spot on.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
11-22-2011, 09:34 AM
When did Elway denounce BJ's.... What is the world coming too?

That's the point. he didn't denounce BJs. He didn't denounce Tebow, either. The bedwetters here just THINK he did.

They don't understand context. Or words.

Dedhed
11-22-2011, 09:34 AM
I understand that this is a message board and not everyone is going to agree with everything.

But why can't we agree that we are 4-1 in the last game dude to these facts: The offense isn't turning the ball over multiple times a game, the D is playing better/getting off the field on 3rd down etc, ST is playing better.

The fact of the matter is we DO need to get better on 3rd down. Our 3rd down failures aren't completely Tebow's fault. Why can't we agree on that? It's plain to see the play calling is as predicable as it gets. Guys have dropped the ball and not ran to or past the sticks. And of course, Tebow has badly missed some guys. It's a combination of all these things. Hopfully we get it figured out.
Those are easy facts to agree with.

However, for some reason people can agree to this fact: We were 1-4 through 5 weeks, we're 5-5 through 10 weeks.

Tebow is the difference.

jhns
11-22-2011, 09:35 AM
I agree with everything in this post.

Unfortunately, it doesn't address the central theme of the thread. Which is "ZOMG ELWAY IS TALKING MAD **** ABOUT TEBOW ALL THE TIME WHY DOES HE HATE TIM AND JESUS AND BLOWJOBS?"

And you cry about others acting like children.

I do love the claims that a QB who won less, and scored less, is somehow better. So intelligent.

DrFate
11-22-2011, 09:35 AM
Are you and Dr. Fate roommates?

There is room in the Tower for good posters (sadly, you need not apply)

Orton was 4-14 over the past 2 season.

Four wins
Fourteen losses

How does that give you 'the best chance to win' in any context? It's nonsensical.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
11-22-2011, 09:35 AM
Those are easy facts to agree with.

However, for some reason people can agree to this fact: We were 1-4 through 5 weeks, we're 5-5 through 10 weeks.

Tebow is the difference.

Defensive improvements might have had something to do with it, but...

No, wait, it's all black and white, and it's all Tebow.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
11-22-2011, 09:36 AM
There is room in the Tower for good posters (sadly, you need not apply)

Orton was 4-14 over the past 2 season.

Four wins
Fourteen losses

How does that give you 'the best chance to win' in any context? It's nonsensical.

Context. Context. Context.

You should look it up.

And thanks, but I don't have any desire to move into "the tower." I enjoy logical thinking too much.

jhns
11-22-2011, 09:36 AM
Defensive improvements might have had something to do with it, but...

No, wait, it's all black and white, and it's all Tebow.

Everyone else suddenly improved the exact same week we put Tebow in. This has nothing to do with Tebow!

TonyR
11-22-2011, 09:37 AM
The whole thing is confusing to me. You don't see the Jags trying to run Gabbert out of town. You don't see the Vikings looking to replace Ponder. You don't see the Panthers down on Newton after a 4 INT game this weekend.

While I don't completely disagree the situations are entirely different. First, Elway and Fox didn't draft Tim Tebow whereas I assume the regimes in Jacksonville and Minnesota did draft their young QB's. Second, Gabbert and Ponder don't have to have a unique style of offense designed to fit their skills (or lack thereof). Third, Gabbert and Ponder don't have the media microscope focused on them the way Tebow does. Fourth, unless you live in Jacksonville or Minnesota you probably aren't very clued in to what their respective GM's are saying. Fifth, I don't necessarily see the Broncos or Elway "looking to replace" or being "down on" Tim Tebow. All Elway really said is that he needs to do better. You may be reading a little too much into this...

jhns
11-22-2011, 09:37 AM
Context. Context. Context.

You should look it up.

And thanks, but I don't have any desire to move into "the tower." I enjoy logical thinking too much.

More points + better record = not as good!

oubronco
11-22-2011, 09:38 AM
Those are easy facts to agree with.

However, for some reason people can agree to this fact: We were 1-4 through 5 weeks, we're 5-5 through 10 weeks.

Tebow is the difference.

Yep it's all Tebow I really don't know why the other players take the field

Dedhed
11-22-2011, 09:38 AM
Neither of you understands context whatsoever.
Explain how context has anything to do with you refusing to acknowledge that Tebow always gave us a better chance to win games than Orton, regardless of the offense?

TheElusiveKyleOrton
11-22-2011, 09:40 AM
Explain how context has anything to do with you refusing to acknowledge that Tebow always gave us a better chance to win games than Orton, regardless of the offense?

NOW we're getting somewhere.

In a pass-based system, Tebow is not as polished and isn't as successful. Would you agree with that?

The offense has been changed completely to suit Tebow's strengths, giving him the best opportunity to be successful. Would you agree with that?

If everything was hunky dory with Tebow running the same offense Orton was running, why didn't the offense stay the same?

See? Context.

TonyR
11-22-2011, 09:40 AM
...the anti-Tebow crowd...

And who/where is this "anti-Tebow crowd"? Suggesting that Elway's comments arent' that big of a deal make one "anti-Tebow"? Some of you guys are really reaching to create this mythical "anti-Tebow crowd". Some of us have questions about him. That doesn't mean we aren't excited about him, or rooting for him, or aware that the team has gone 4-1 with him.

errand
11-22-2011, 09:40 AM
It would have been nice if Elway criticized Orton when he was 1-4.
This is the reason Tebow never thanks Elway or Fox in his press conference.
They want Tebow to fail..

I think replacing orton with a quarterback who can't even complete half his passes and had to change the entire offense just so he could operate it is a pretty big criticism of kyle orton

Dedhed
11-22-2011, 09:41 AM
Defensive improvements might have had something to do with it, but...

No, wait, it's all black and white, and it's all Tebow.

Ahh, yes, you enjoy logical thinking, and then apply this logic:

"The team that was losing despite Orton's good passing is now the reason we're winning despite poor passing."

That is mighty sound logic. You're amazing!

Turd_Ferguson
11-22-2011, 09:41 AM
At least you are starting to get it.

The guy that wins more = the guy that gives us the best chance.

I get that this is far too complicated for uneducated raider fan. It is funny seeing you get mad about us winning.

You are like a Chiefs fan. You are content to be 8-8. Your team wins a big game and you call it a successful season. As a Broncos fan, I want afc championships, playoff runs, and superbowls. If you are happy with the scraps from the good teams and beating crap teams like the chiefs and raiders, only to be blown out by detroit and barely beat Miami than Congrats you are a Chiefs fan.

Did Tebow Kiss you after you finished?

Shotgun Willie
11-22-2011, 09:41 AM
Everyone else suddenly improved the exact same week we put Tebow in. This has nothing to do with Tebow!

Well, to be fair, they were playing the 2nd worst team in the league that first game, with two weeks to prepare....and still played like crap and almost lost. And the next was the Detroit debacle where nobody played well. So "the exact same week" argument would be a tough one to make.

A few guys got healthy and they finally started to gell on defense. It takes time to learn an entire new system, especially with a truncated preseason. Nobody peaks in week one in that scenario.

jhns
11-22-2011, 09:41 AM
While I don't completely disagree the situations are entirely different. First, Elway and Fox didn't draft Tim Tebow whereas I assume the regimes in Jacksonville and Minnesota did draft their young QB's. Second, Gabbert and Ponder don't have to have a unique style of offense designed to fit their skills (or lack thereof). Third, Gabbert and Ponder don't have the media microscope focused on them the way Tebow does. Fourth, unless you live in Jacksonville or Minnesota you probably aren't very clued in to what their respective GM's are saying. Fifth, I don't necessarily see the Broncos or Elway "looking to replace" or being "down on" Tim Tebow. All Elway really said is that he needs to do better. You may be reading a little too much into this...

Who says Tebow needs a different offense? He was winning more, and putting up more points, than Orton in the Orton offense. The front office is now claiming he can't do things as they don't let him eventry to prove them wrong. He bails them out at the end of games when they actually let him drop back more than hand off. This is when he scores a bunch.

The logic doesn't make sense.

He wins games = he needs to do better, he is week to week

Orton loses games = he gives us the best chance to win, he is our starting QB.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
11-22-2011, 09:41 AM
Ahh, yes, you enjoy logical thinking, and then apply this logic:

"The team that was losing despite Orton's good passing is now the reason we're winning despite poor passing."

That is mighty sound logic. You're amazing!

Oops! I never said any of that.

Shoot. Guess it's back to the drawing board for you.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
11-22-2011, 09:44 AM
And who/where is this "anti-Tebow crowd"? Suggesting that Elway's comments arent' that big of a deal make one "anti-Tebow"? Some of you guys are really reaching to create this mythical "anti-Tebow crowd". Some of us have questions about him. That doesn't mean we aren't excited about him, or rooting for him, or aware that the team has gone 4-1 with him.

Now, now, Tony. You know as well as they do that if you think Tebow is anything short of completely perfect as a quarterback, you hate him, think he's the devil, and are looking for ways to send him out of town immediately.

Don't you dare ask for his passing to improve.

I mean, sure, if he DID improve his passing, he'd be just about the perfect quarterback, but... NAH, there I go again, being a hater, being "anti-Tebow."

DrFate
11-22-2011, 09:44 AM
While I don't completely disagree the situations are entirely different. First, Elway and Fox didn't draft Tim Tebow whereas I assume the regimes in Jacksonville and Minnesota did draft their young QB's.

Certainly true

Second, Gabbert and Ponder don't have to have a unique style of offense designed to fit their skills (or lack thereof).

I notice you left off Newton. :)

I'm not sure your comment actually reinforces your point - they are playing the typical 'NFL pass happy offense' and looking bad doing it. This is the very thing Tebow is being criticized for (not being able to play in that system). Tebow's coaches have altered the system to enhance his play, the Jag/Viking coaches have not.

Third, Gabbert and Ponder don't have the media microscope focused on them the way Tebow does.

This is certainly true, but I'm not sure the point you are trying to make. Tebow is winning with more pressure - isn't that a point in his favor?


Fourth, unless you live in Jacksonville or Minnesota you probably aren't very clued in to what their respective GM's are saying.

I guess this is fair


Fifth, I don't necessarily see the Broncos or Elway "looking to replace" or being "down on" Tim Tebow. All Elway really said is that he needs to do better. You may be reading a little too much into this...

I don't agree with that. When Tebow was asked 'do you know more than you did weeks ago' he could have easily said 'We were 1-4, now we are 5-5 and a game out of first place in the division'. He seems to go out of his way to NOT say anything positive about Tebow.

jhns
11-22-2011, 09:45 AM
Well, to be fair, they were playing the 2nd worst team in the league that first game, with two weeks to prepare....and still played like crap and almost lost. And the next was the Detroit debacle where nobody played well. So "the exact same week" argument would be a tough one to make.

A few guys got healthy and they finally started to gell on defense. It takes time to learn an entire new system, especially with a truncated preseason. Nobody peaks in week one in that scenario.

This team has done exactly that multiple times over the past five years. I understand that raider fan doesn't follow closely enough to know this though.

The team starts winning after making one move. You say that move wasn't the difference. I laugh at you for being uneducated and for coming with some of the dumbest logic I have ever seen.

Dedhed
11-22-2011, 09:46 AM
NOW we're getting somewhere.
In a pass-based system, Tebow is not as polished and isn't as successful. Would you agree with that? Why would I agree to that when he put up more points and had a better winning pct in a pass-based system? You have to be kidding yourself.

The offense has been changed completely to suit Tebow's strengths, giving him the best opportunity to be successful. Would you agree with that?Yes

If everything was hunky dory with Tebow running the same offense Orton was running, why didn't the offense stay the same?Because that offense was a combined 6-16 over the last two seasons regardless of whether there was a pretty passer or not. Get it? They were 3-13 with Orton leading the league in passing. IT WAS NOT WORKING AT ALL!

See? Context.Yeah, I see what your context ignores.

jhns
11-22-2011, 09:47 AM
Now, now, Tony. You know as well as they do that if you think Tebow is anything short of completely perfect as a quarterback, you hate him, think he's the devil, and are looking for ways to send him out of town immediately.

Don't you dare ask for his passing to improve.

I mean, sure, if he DID improve his passing, he'd be just about the perfect quarterback, but... NAH, there I go again, being a hater, being "anti-Tebow."

LOL @ butthurt Orton fan

Shotgun Willie
11-22-2011, 09:48 AM
This team has done exactly that multiple times over the past five years. I understand that raider fan doesn't follow closely enough to know this though.

The team starts winning after making one move. You say that move wasn't the difference. I laugh at you for being uneducated and for coming with some of the dumbest logic I have ever seen.

Sorry. This isn't basketball. One player can't make THAT big a difference. Is he a part? Yes, clearly. A big part? Yes, I'd say so.

But, honestly, without other things outside his control, like a healthy Dumervil, the superior play of the defense overall (regardless of how many 3 and outs Tebow has) and piss poor quality opponents, that one move wouldn't have made much difference on its own.

DrFate
11-22-2011, 09:48 AM
And who/where is this "anti-Tebow crowd"?

they are in this thread - errand, TEKO, etc.


Suggesting that Elway's comments arent' that big of a deal make one "anti-Tebow"?

Not in my book - you feel Elway's comments are being blown out of proportion. That's an entirely valid opinion.


Some of you guys are really reaching to create this mythical "anti-Tebow crowd". Some of us have questions about him. That doesn't mean we aren't excited about him, or rooting for him, or aware that the team has gone 4-1 with him.

I don't include you in that crowd. You have people IN THIS VERY THREAD still trying the 'Orton gives you the best chance to win' mantra even though that was dead and buried long ago. They put all their chips on Orton and when he came up as a loser, they cry about it and want to spin the wheel again.

In my opinion, Elway has gone out of his way to avoid saying anything positive about his current QB. Fox went so far to say 'he's screwed'.

Every week we are talking about this because every week Fox or Elway has put their foot in their mouth. This isn't a one-time slip.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
11-22-2011, 09:48 AM
Why would I agree to that when he put up more points and had a better winning pct in a pass-based system? You have to be kidding yourself.

Yes

Because that offense was a combined 6-16 over the last two seasons regardless of whether there was a pretty passer or not. Get it? They were 3-13 with Orton leading the league in passing. IT WAS NOT WORKING AT ALL!

Yeah, I see what your context ignores.

Is it hard for you to bend over backwards to avoid the truth that you know is in there? That Tebow would be a FLAWLESS quarterback if he could pass better?

Do you REALLY believe that the system was trashed simply because it wasn't working at all and not because the young quarterback couldn't run it?

So you're not missing only context, but logic as well. Another strong showing.

Dedhed
11-22-2011, 09:49 AM
Oops! I never said any of that.
Again, you can't even follow your own logic. You did say it by stating that the new found success is because of the defense. When in the early weeks it was the defense that you blamed for the team's failures.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
11-22-2011, 09:50 AM
they are in this thread - errand, TEKO, etc.


TEKO: "Man, Tebow would be a flawless quarterback if he threw the ball better."

DrFate: "YOU ARE ANTI-TEBOW WHY DO YOU HATE TEBOW WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY?"

What a shrill moron.

Dedhed
11-22-2011, 09:51 AM
I think replacing orton ... and chang[ing] the entire offense ... is a pretty big criticism of kyle orton

None of which Elway anything to do with.

55CrushEm
11-22-2011, 09:51 AM
Context. Context. Context.

You should look it up.

And thanks, but I don't have any desire to move into "the tower." I enjoy logical thinking too much.

So logical is.......

Orton gives us the best chance to win....even though he DOESN'T!!

Yeah, that's it.

jhns
11-22-2011, 09:52 AM
Sorry. This isn't basketball. One player can't make THAT big a difference. Is he a part? Yes, clearly. A big part? Yes, I'd say so.

But, honestly, without other things outside his control, like a healthy Dumervil, the superior play of the defense overall (regardless of how many 3 and outs Tebow has) and piss poor quality opponents, that one move wouldn't have made much difference on its own.

He dhas made that big of a difference in two different seasons now. You can claim whatever you want. Reality is here for all to see. This team has a better win % with Tebow in both seasons. Just last season, the offense scored more, scored twice as much against the two common opponents, and gave up half as many points against those two common opponents. I would say it is very easy to make the case that Tebow is the difference.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
11-22-2011, 09:52 AM
Again, you can't even follow your own logic. You did say it by stating that the new found success is because of the defense. When in the early weeks it was the defense that you blamed for the team's failures.

Never said it was "because of the defense." I said it "might have had something to do with the defense." And it actually DID have "something to do with the defense."

See? Context.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
11-22-2011, 09:53 AM
So logical is.......

Orton gives us the best chance to win....even though he DOESN'T!!

Yeah, that's it.

You're neat. Do you use your head for anything other than a buttplug?

Dedhed
11-22-2011, 09:53 AM
Sorry. This isn't basketball. One player can't make THAT big a difference.
Umm... Peyton Manning.

Dedhed
11-22-2011, 09:54 AM
Never said it was "because of the defense." I said it "might have had something to do with the defense." And it actually DID have "something to do with the defense."

See? Context.

You're a complete joke. Keep chasing your tail.

DrFate
11-22-2011, 09:54 AM
While I don't completely disagree the situations are entirely different. First, Elway and Fox didn't draft Tim Tebow whereas I assume the regimes in Jacksonville and Minnesota did draft their young QB's.

And to clarify my comments - I can't say Elway or Fox have said they are looking to replace Tebow or whatnot. They haven't been complimentary, by any means.

I simply can't understand how Tebow's passing number are actually BETTER than Gabbert's (for example) - but you don't have Hoge and Dilfer and all these other morons slamming Gabbert every week saying 'Blaine Gabbert will NEVER win in the NFL'.

Cam Newton has 14 INTs to date. But the talking head analysis is 'what a great arm!!' or 'look at him run!!' I don't really care that Tebow has an ugly motion. I care that he doesn't turn the ball over and that he wins games. Which is why, again, I'd like to see them let him attempt those 'more traditional' passes the rest of this season.

You have people on this board (I think it was Popps) who said 'how can you want him to pass MORE when he can't complete the passes he attempts now?!?'.

My response is - the passes now are almost always

1) third and long
2) deep heaves to Decker

I don't expect a high completion percentage on those situations from any NFL QB, much less an essential rookie with a very underwhelming WR corps...

DrFate
11-22-2011, 09:56 AM
TEKO: "Man, Tebow would be a flawless quarterback if he threw the ball better."

DrFate: "YOU ARE ANTI-TEBOW WHY DO YOU HATE TEBOW WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY?"

What a shrill moron.

The comical part is this is your best attempt at a response after 10+ pages of 'Orton gives us the best chance to win' BS

Once you get embarrassed by half the board, you try something different.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
11-22-2011, 09:57 AM
You're a complete joke. Keep chasing your tail.

Actually, you're the joke. Poor little bitch can't read.

If you comprehended what you read, you wouldn't look like such a moron right now.

Is it your contention that a defense who gives up fewer points HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH the team's success in this 4-1 run? You know it can be more than one thing contributing to a win, correct?

Have you ever watched football?

TheElusiveKyleOrton
11-22-2011, 09:59 AM
The comical part is this is your best attempt at a response after 10+ pages of 'Orton gives us the best chance to win' BS

Once you get embarrassed by half the board, you try something different.

What?

Seriously. What? Go back and read, son. Try to figure out if my main contention was that "Orton gives us the best chance to win," or if my main contention was "Tim Tebow needs to improve his passing, so I agree with what Elway's saying."

Go back and read. Don't forget context! Try not to form any half-baked conclusions before reading what is actually in front of you.

DrFate
11-22-2011, 10:01 AM
Is it your contention that a defense who gives up fewer points HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH the team's success in this 4-1 run? You know it can be more than one thing contributing to a win, correct?

Orton - 155 attempts, 7 INTs
Tebow - 125 attempts, 1 INT

best chance indeed

Hulamau
11-22-2011, 10:02 AM
This seems like it could be one of several things.

1. He is lying, Tebow all the way.
2. He has gone effing stupid since his playing days and thinks Orton is actually a decent player.
3. He doesn't like Tebow and will sell the farm for Luck damn the consequences.
4. The 2 other legs on the stool are telling him to play Tebow and he doesn't like it so he says stupid crap like this to the media over and over again.

OPTION 5: Elway is a straight shooter and calls it as he sees it. He gave Tim plenty of props for getting it done at crunch time while entirely appropriately reminds Tim the rest of the team and the football world that we cant rely solely on last minute heroics every single week and expect to compete for .. much less win .. another Super Bowl anytime soon.

He clearly noted that Tim is getting better every week and the door is wide open for TIM TO TAKE THE JOB for himself! Just as it should be.

No way we are going to beat the Green Bays and such of this world depending solely on a stout defense and come from behind drama in the 4th quarter every game. No where was Elway condemning Tim but just making it clear he has not absolutely locked up the Franchise QB gig for the long term .. not just yet.

My bet is on Option #5 being where Elway is really coming from.

Shotgun Willie
11-22-2011, 10:03 AM
Umm... Peyton Manning.

Not this year. Even with Manning, I really don't think this season was going to be the usual 12 win Colts team. I honestly think they had 6-8 wins written all over them this year. Now combine his loss with the general lack of effort/mailing it in/throwing games/whatever you want to call it to secure the #1 pick....and there you have it.

Oh yeah, and Tebow's no Manning.

DrFate
11-22-2011, 10:03 AM
Try to figure out if my main contention was that "Orton gives us the best chance to win," or if my main contention was "Tim Tebow needs to improve his passing, so I agree with what Elway's saying."


Feel free to explain to the posters current laughing at you how 'Orton gives us the best chance to win' is somehow justification for an opinion of 'Tebow needs to improve his passing'

I'm pretty sure the accurate statement is 'Orton being inactive gives us the best chance to win'

edog24
11-22-2011, 10:04 AM
Orton sucks

Dedhed
11-22-2011, 10:11 AM
Never said it was "because of the defense."
So you never blamed the rest of the players for the losses"
You're totally right. Having nobody wideouts and a backup running back is just an excuse, not valid at all.
Here you blame terrible WRs, and Willis McGahee.

By a competent defense? That's "being carried"?

That's "being carried"?

Here's where you lambaste the defense for not even being competent.

Orton throws pass. Receiver drops pass.
Again. It's the WRs fault, but not Orton's. But now it's Tebow's fault when WRs drop passes.

You're just a trolling liar.

RaiderH8r
11-22-2011, 10:15 AM
HOW THE **** IS HE SANDBAGGING? Seriously. Answer me that. What quote is him sandbagging Tebow?

Jesus ****ing Christ. Just STOP. Elway wants a guy who can throw the ball. Right now, Tim is not very good at throwing the ball. That's not sandbagging.

I guess you'd rather Elway go on the air and blow sunshine up your ass... right up until he drafts a new quarterback who can throw ANYWAY.

My message to John is this; we had a guy who could throw the ball. I like winning better.

Dedhed
11-22-2011, 10:15 AM
Not this year. Even with Manning, I really don't think this season was going to be the usual 12 win Colts team. I honestly think they had 6-8 wins written all over them this year. Now combine his loss with the general lack of effort/mailing it in/throwing games/whatever you want to call it to secure the #1 pick....and there you have it.

Oh yeah, and Tebow's no Manning.
Wow. You're not the brightest bulb are you? You said one player can't make that much of a difference.

8 wins in a 16 game season is "that much of a difference". As is 1-4 vs 4-1. In Denver, Tebow is making that much of a difference, as is the absence of 1 player in Indy.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
11-22-2011, 10:16 AM
My message to John is this; we had a guy who could throw the ball. I like winning better.

You know you can have both, right?

If Tebow improves his throwing, isn't that a good thing for all of us? That's what I'm rooting for.

Dedhed
11-22-2011, 10:18 AM
Is it your contention that a defense who gives up fewer points HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH the team's success in this 4-1 run?

Of course I'm not saying that. I'm saying they're giving up fewer points because of the offense that is being run by Tebow.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
11-22-2011, 10:18 AM
Feel free to explain to the posters current laughing at you how 'Orton gives us the best chance to win' is somehow justification for an opinion of 'Tebow needs to improve his passing'

I'm pretty sure the accurate statement is 'Orton being inactive gives us the best chance to win'

And again, context eludes you completely.

Arguing with a moron is not going to get me anywhere. You boys enjoy lambasting the team's first hero for saying what we all know to be true: That Tebow needs to improve as a thrower.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
11-22-2011, 10:21 AM
Of course I'm not saying that. I'm saying they're giving up fewer points because of the offense that is being run by Tebow.

Really? You said the difference between 1-4 and 4-1 is Tebow. Any other explanation is not acceptable. Defense must not have anything to do with it because Tebow is the only difference between 1-4 and 4-1.

Never mind that Tebow was given the ball inside the Jets' 50 5 times and came away with three points. Was that the defense benefiting Tebow? Or Tebow benefiting the defense?

I agree that Tebow isn't turning the ball over and is helping the defense by not giving them a short field with which to work, but if Tebow improved his passing, maybe he'd be able to take advantage of the short fields he's gotten since the defense has come on.

How horrible of me to ask for him to improve as a passer.

jhns
11-22-2011, 10:27 AM
I like how the haters keep trying to argue against stuff that no one has argued. Again, showing their intelligence.

Shotgun Willie
11-22-2011, 10:32 AM
Wow. You're not the brightest bulb are you? You said one player can't make that much of a difference.

8 wins in a 16 game season is "that much of a difference". As is 1-4 vs 4-1. In Denver, Tebow is making that much of a difference, as is the absence of 1 player in Indy.

Ummmm, honest question: do you NOT understand the definition of the word "combine"?

Dedhed
11-22-2011, 10:43 AM
Ummmm, honest question: do you NOT understand the definition of the word "combine"?Never mind. I'm tired of talking with people who won't engage in honest debate.

If you don't think Manning makes all the difference in the world, or that Tebow has been the difference between being 1-4 and 4-1, fine.

I hear there's a nice bridge for sale near Brooklyn. Great location.

jhns
11-22-2011, 10:46 AM
Elway is just being honest! He was also being honest in his assesment of Orton. If nothing else, his comments are proving he isn't qualified for this job. That is always good!

Oh, and PR/ player relations are overrated. Signed, McDaniels.

Dedhed
11-22-2011, 10:49 AM
Really? You said the difference between 1-4 and 4-1 is Tebow. Any other explanation is not acceptable. Defense must not have anything to do with it because Tebow is the only difference between 1-4 and 4-1.You just refuse to engage in an honest debate. Of course the rest of the team plays a part in every game. They're better because of Tebow.


I noticed that you ignored all the posts where I showed you blaming the rest of the team for why we were losing after you said you hadn't.

Why?

errand
11-22-2011, 10:50 AM
Everyone else suddenly improved the exact same week we put Tebow in. This has nothing to do with Tebow!

Odd....but how is it Tebow can elevate other players to tackle, catch, cover, block and run better....but he can't elevate himself to throw better....in particularly on 3rd downs?

jhns
11-22-2011, 10:56 AM
Odd....but how is it Tebow can elevate other players to tackle, catch, cover, block and run better....but he can't elevate himself to throw better....in particularly on 3rd downs?

You mean by throwing a 56 yard TD to take control of a game, on third and long? How about the passing needed for multiple comeback victories in a handfull of starts? You don't call that elevating his passing game?

It is very obvious that many of you don't understand the basics of this sport.

Shotgun Willie
11-22-2011, 10:58 AM
Never mind. I'm tired of talking with people who won't engage in honest debate.

Ummm, honest debate by definition means that you'd be willing to concede points, be open to changing your mind or at the very least see the other person's side of things. You have proven you are incapable of this.

You speak only in absolutes. I don't.

If you don't think Manning makes all the difference in the world, or that Tebow has been the difference between being 1-4 and 4-1, fine.

I think he makes a huge difference and said as much. Not 10+ games difference, but a significant difference. And I have clearly stated that I do think Tebow has made a difference. Is he the ONLY difference as you state? Nope. There are too many variables that he had no control over.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
11-22-2011, 10:58 AM
If you don't think Manning makes all the difference in the world, or that Tebow has been the difference between being 1-4 and 4-1, fine.


Manning sure does. The difference between an all-world quarterback, one of the best who ever lived, and Curtis Painter, is a SIGNIFICANT difference. I don't think anyone is arguing that are they?

You REALLY think the Defense had nothing to do with it? The defense has been incredible for this team, and has had a major role in the 4-1 turnaround.

Shotgun Willie
11-22-2011, 10:59 AM
You just refuse to engage in an honest debate. Of course the rest of the team plays a part in every game. They're better because of Tebow.

Hey everyone. Tebow is the Broncos lone member of the training/medical staff. He is the one who made Dumervil better.

AlphaSeirra
11-22-2011, 10:59 AM
I'm not big on conspiracy theories, but Elway's body language and non-verbal communication said a lot.
I think he views Tebow's success as being a temporary and that he thinks eventually Tim's going to get exposed because
of an inability to throw from the pocket and that this is going to result in injury or the fans turning on him or both. Just
a gut feeling based on how noncommittal he's been in regard to Tebow. John strikes me as a pretty smart guy though. At
this point he's not going to unload Tebow for a 4th rounder in the off-season or something to alienate the fanbase. However,
I could see him using the excuse of a lack of QB depth on the team to draft a QB to compete with Tebow. I also could see them
bringing in a veteran QB in the off-season as well.

For Tim to make quality throws FROM THE POCKET,,,,,
you must have a QUALITY POCKET to throw from,,,,,
and you must have QUALITY RECEIVERS to throw the ball to.

Smart Elway/Fox traded away the Top 2 Bronco 2010 Receivers,,,,
and then they threw Tebow to the Completion % wolves.

Please look at all of the p***Y/pocket/QB's that have been injured out in the last 2 season.
The only time that Tim went out of a game in his 4 year UF career was while standing
in the pocket on a pass play, not while he was running for 2,900+ yds with 57 TD's.
Tim never missed a single start as a Gator due to injury, playing against the toughest defenses in College football.

If Bowlen/Elway/Fox draft ANY QB before getting WR Justin Blackmon, then
they should ALL have their collective azzes kicked to the nearest mountain top.

DrFate
11-22-2011, 11:00 AM
Odd....but how is it Tebow can elevate other players to tackle, catch, cover, block and run better....but he can't elevate himself to throw better....in particularly on 3rd downs?

4-1

Try it errand - 'four and one'

TheElusiveKyleOrton
11-22-2011, 11:01 AM
You just refuse to engage in an honest debate. Of course the rest of the team plays a part in every game. They're better because of Tebow.


I noticed that you ignored all the posts where I showed you blaming the rest of the team for why we were losing after you said you hadn't.

Why?

Sorry, but you're going to have to explain that. The defense is better BECAUSE of Tebow? Not because they're better coached, or they've taken a different strategy, or because Von Miller is clicking in the system and starting to turn it on, or because Allen has the unit playing at a higher level. It's because of the quarterback.

As for ignoring those posts, you left out any and all context. I don't remember every post I've ever made on this board. Maybe you do, and maybe I've smoked too much weed through the years. Either way, without context, those posts mean absolutely nothing. Context in this case refers to posts I was referencing, threads the posts came in, etc.

You like everything to be black and white, with no nuance. The world doesn't work that way.

jhns
11-22-2011, 11:01 AM
Hey everyone. Tebow is the Broncos lone member of the training/medical staff. He is the one who made Dumervil better.

Dude doesn't even know what players have been playing... LOL

What a douche.

DrFate
11-22-2011, 11:02 AM
The defense is better BECAUSE of Tebow?

The reduction in interceptions certainly helps the defense. Would you not agree?

jhns
11-22-2011, 11:03 AM
Sorry, but you're going to have to explain that. The defense is better BECAUSE of Tebow? Not because they're better coached, or they've taken a different strategy, or because Von Miller is clicking in the system and starting to turn it on, or because Allen has the unit playing at a higher level. It's because of the quarterback.

As for ignoring those posts, you left out any and all context. I don't remember every post I've ever made on this board. Maybe you do, and maybe I've smoked too much weed through the years. Either way, without context, those posts mean absolutely nothing. Context in this case refers to posts I was referencing, threads the posts came in, etc.

You like everything to be black and white, with no nuance. The world doesn't work that way.

Yet, it happened when he came in last season as well. It happens two(every) times? Clearly Tebow has nothing to do with it!

TheElusiveKyleOrton
11-22-2011, 11:04 AM
The reduction in interceptions certainly helps the defense. Would you not agree?

Absolutely. NOW we're getting somewhere.

Tebow would be helped by a short field, yes? The defense gave him a shortened field (Jets' side of the 50) FIVE TIMES.

How many times?

FIVE TIMES.

http://idiotflashback.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/bueller_03.jpg

We came away with three points in those five times.

It seems to me that the defense is helping Tim out a lot too. So saying Tim is THE REASON we went from 1-4 to 4-1 is ****ING RETARDED.

Shotgun Willie
11-22-2011, 11:05 AM
Dude doesn't even know what players have been playing... LOL

What a douche.

What are you talking about? Are you saying Dumervil wasn't hurt at the start of the year? Are you saying he isn't now healthier than he's been all year?

DrFate
11-22-2011, 11:05 AM
It seems to me that the defense is helping Tim out a lot too.

Has anyone, in any thread, actually said the opposite?

If so, please post a link.

jhns
11-22-2011, 11:06 AM
Absolutely. NOW we're getting somewhere.

Tebow would be helped by a short field, yes? The defense gave him a shortened field (Jets' side of the 50) FIVE TIMES.

How many times?

FIVE TIMES.

http://idiotflashback.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/bueller_03.jpg

We came away with three points in those five times.

It seems to me that the defense is helping Tim out a lot too. So saying Tim is THE REASON we went from 1-4 to 4-1 is ****ING RETARDED.

Yeah, it is clearly all the other moves we made!

AlphaSeirra
11-22-2011, 11:08 AM
[QUOTE=Play2Win;3383675]The defense is definitely playing lights out, thank in large part to Dennis Allen, Von Miller and Champ Bailey :approve: QUOTE]

What you need to do is; go review what the Bronco defensive players are saying about Tebow.

A good place to start would be with rookie Von Miller, then Pro Bowl Vet Champ.

That should give you a nice spread of 'teammate opinions' of the Tebow effect..... ;)

TheElusiveKyleOrton
11-22-2011, 11:08 AM
Has anyone, in any thread, actually said the opposite?

If so, please post a link.

SIGH.

Yes. Talk to your roommate Dedhed about Tim Tebow being "THE DIFFERENCE" between 1-4 and 4-1.

DrFate
11-22-2011, 11:09 AM
SIGH.

Yes. Talk to your roommate Dedhed about Tim Tebow being "THE DIFFERENCE" between 1-4 and 4-1.

I don't see the link

jhns
11-22-2011, 11:10 AM
What are you talking about? Are you saying Dumervil wasn't hurt at the start of the year? Are you saying he isn't now healthier than he's been all year?

He was here for multiple Orton games. The defense was no better. The defense has been far better both times that Tebow has come in. You claim Tebow has nothing to do with it.

It is fun seeing you raider fans get so mad about Tebow making us better though.

Hercules Rockefeller
11-22-2011, 11:11 AM
Yet, it happened when he came in last season as well. It happens two(every) times? Clearly Tebow has nothing to do with it!

No they didn't.

1st 13 games- 28.9 ppg
Last 3 games- 31.7 ppg

The Defense was about a FG worse last year, so the defensive play was not improved.

That's not a defense or attack on anyone, but those are the facts.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
11-22-2011, 11:11 AM
I don't see the link

Scrolling up is too hard for you, huh?

Here you go. Sort of absurd that I have to link to something on the same page, but I'm debating with an apparent tower-dwelling moron, so that's the price I pay.

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showpost.php?p=3384478&postcount=628

Notice how he says "the difference" between 1-4 and 4-1. "THE" implying a singular difference.

DrFate
11-22-2011, 11:13 AM
Notice how he says "the difference" between 1-4 and 4-1. "THE" implying a singular difference.

You should learn to communicate with higher forms of life. It will serve you well going forward.

Dedhed - do you think the defense has been playing better of late?

jhns
11-22-2011, 11:14 AM
Scrolling up is too hard for you, huh?

Here you go. Sort of absurd that I have to link to something on the same page, but I'm debating with an apparent tower-dwelling moron, so that's the price I pay.

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showpost.php?p=3384478&postcount=628

Notice how he says "the difference" between 1-4 and 4-1. "THE" implying a singular difference.

The team is far better with Tebow both times that he is put in. The Tebow hating McFan says that he isn't the difference. The records say otherwise. Facts have no room in a McFan debate though.

DrFate
11-22-2011, 11:18 AM
TEKO - I think you simply want to yell at the rain.

Orton (1-4) had this same cast of characters as Tebow (4-1) except Orton had the luxury of Lloyd.

The only thing that has changed personnel wise is at QB. Is this not true?

TheElusiveKyleOrton
11-22-2011, 11:19 AM
You should learn to communicate with higher forms of life. It will serve you well going forward.

Dedhed - do you think the defense has been playing better of late?

He'll answer affirmatively, but that THE DIFFERENCE in the team's record is Tebow, all Tebow, and nothing but The Tebow.

So help me, God.

If you're a "higher form of life," I think I'll pass. You're a moron.

DrFate
11-22-2011, 11:20 AM
He'll answer affirmatively, but that THE DIFFERENCE in the team's record is Tebow, all Tebow, and nothing but The Tebow.

Why not let him speak for himself?

Shotgun Willie
11-22-2011, 11:20 AM
He was here for multiple Orton games. The defense was no better.


And I'm saying he was hurt for the Orton games. Sept 12th he suffered a shoulder injury and it didn't heal until recently. He was not 100% in the "Orton games."

The defense has been far better both times that Tebow has come in. You claim Tebow has nothing to do with it.

I dare you to find one post, just one, where I said that. I'm waiting.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
11-22-2011, 11:20 AM
TEKO - I think you simply want to yell at the rain.

Orton (1-4) had this same cast of characters as Tebow (4-1) except Orton had the luxury of Lloyd.

The only thing that has changed personnel wise is at QB. Is this not true?

Yep. That's true.

Well, that, AND the defense coming on much stronger.

See, there's isn't a singular difference. I know you're a higher form of life or whatever, so you should probably be able to wrap your mind around something like this.

Enter Tebow.

Enter a better defense.

Enter more wins.

Don't worry, I'm not saying Orton would be 4-1 with the defense playing like this. I haven't made that claim, and I wouldn't.

I don't think there's a SINGULAR factor making a difference. I think there are MULTIPLE factors making a difference.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
11-22-2011, 11:21 AM
Why not let him speak for himself?

Did I stop him?

DrFate
11-22-2011, 11:22 AM
Enter Tebow.

Enter a better defense.

Enter more wins.

Don't worry, I'm not saying Orton would be 4-1 with the defense playing like this. I haven't made that claim, and I wouldn't.

I have to assume you simply like seeing your own posts. Has anyone, anywhere said the defense hasn't played better during the current streak?

TheElusiveKyleOrton
11-22-2011, 11:23 AM
I have to assume you simply like seeing your own posts. Has anyone, anywhere said the defense hasn't played better during the current streak?

Sweet. ****ing. Christ.

You're too stupid for words. Honestly.

THE DIFFERENCE. That is the claim I'm refuting. That Tebow was THE DIFFERENCE between 1-4 and 4-1. Not a combination of things INCLUDING Tim Tebow. That Tim Tebow was THE DIFFERENCE.

Do you seriously not understand? Seriously?

oubronco
11-22-2011, 11:24 AM
Sweet. ****ing. Christ.

You're too stupid for words. Honestly.

THE DIFFERENCE. That is the claim I'm refuting. That Tebow was THE DIFFERENCE between 1-4 and 4-1. Not a combination of things INCLUDING Tim Tebow. That Tim Tebow was THE DIFFERENCE.

Do you seriously not understand? Seriously?

Your never going to win them over

TheElusiveKyleOrton
11-22-2011, 11:25 AM
Your never going to win them over

Yeah. I give up.

jhns
11-22-2011, 11:26 AM
And I'm saying he was hurt for the Orton games. Sept 12th he suffered a shoulder injury and it didn't heal until recently. He was not 100% in the "Orton games."



I dare you to find one post, just one, where I said that. I'm waiting.

So he just magically healed when Tebow came in? What about last seasons defensive improvement? Did Elvis magically heal and make the difference then as well?

I'll show you were you said that as soon as you stop being such a little girl and post from your other account. You know you are pathetic when you are so embarrassed that you have to create a new account on a random online forum.

Hercules Rockefeller
11-22-2011, 11:26 AM
2 true statements:

There were no OTAs or mini-camps this year, and therefore Tebow did not have a typical offseason like normal, and it took him some time to get up to speed because of the missed practice time.

There were no OTAs or mini-camps this year, and therefore the defense did not get the needed time with the new staff to get up to speed on schemes, packages, etc. like any other normal offseason.

Both of those statements are completely true. I just don't understand how people are willing to argue the first and completely ignore that the same thing is true with the second.

There is a reason why this defense is playing better. I'm sure some of it comes from Tim and the team's generally elevated level of play, but to say that is the only reason is just completely false. A healthy Dumervil has made a world of difference too.

jhns
11-22-2011, 11:28 AM
Sweet. ****ing. Christ.

You're too stupid for words. Honestly.

THE DIFFERENCE. That is the claim I'm refuting. That Tebow was THE DIFFERENCE between 1-4 and 4-1. Not a combination of things INCLUDING Tim Tebow. That Tim Tebow was THE DIFFERENCE.

Do you seriously not understand? Seriously?

Yeah! It was clearly all of the other moves we made!

You can say it all you want. It is just as stupid every time.

DrFate
11-22-2011, 11:28 AM
Sweet. ****ing. Christ.

You're too stupid for words. Honestly.

THE DIFFERENCE. That is the claim I'm refuting. That Tebow was THE DIFFERENCE between 1-4 and 4-1. Not a combination of things INCLUDING Tim Tebow. That Tim Tebow was THE DIFFERENCE.

Do you seriously not understand? Seriously?

You like insulting - you don't like thinking. Try more of the latter, less of the former.

The difference between 1-4 and 4-1, from a players on the field perspective, is Tebow. I don't think anyone (even you) can argue that.

Has Tebow inspired the defense? I can't answer that. You can't either. So stop trying. It might help that Tebow has shown he can win games late where Orton showed he could fall down and curl up into a ball. Maybe that has given the defense reason to play. I wouldn't make that claim, but no one can disprove it.

oubronco
11-22-2011, 11:28 AM
2 true statements:

There were no OTAs or mini-camps this year, and therefore Tebow did not have a typical offseason like normal, and it took him some time to get up to speed because of the missed practice time.

There were no OTAs or mini-camps this year, and therefore the defense did not get the needed time with the new staff to get up to speed on schemes, packages, etc. like any other normal offseason.

Both of those statements are completely true. I just don't understand how people are willing to argue the first and completely the same thing is true with the second.

There is a reason why this defense is playing better. I'm sure some of it comes from Tim and the team's generally elevated level of play, but to say that is the only reason is just completely false. A healthy Dumervil has made a world of difference too.

Because Tebow doesn't play Defense but makes them play better

RaiderH8r
11-22-2011, 11:30 AM
You know you can have both, right?

If Tebow improves his throwing, isn't that a good thing for all of us? That's what I'm rooting for.

Yeah. If you'd read my previous posts you would see I agree. Having Tim develop as a passer in addition to this already kickass thing we have going is just going to drive people f'ing nuts trying to defend it. We also need to develop a true #1 receiver who can consistently make a play on a ball instead having to have the pass spoon fed to him in a six inch window lest it bounce of his chest. Also, ol ocho siete needs to work on dragging his toes near the sidelines. Royal needs to work on running away from defenders in his routes and Willis needs a memo that he can make a play in quarters 1,2, and 3 as well.

jhns
11-22-2011, 11:30 AM
Because Tebow doesn't play Defense but makes them play better

And continually makes you haters cry. It is why we love him so much.

Some of you should learn the basics of this sport. It would help you out a lot.

KO5K
11-22-2011, 11:31 AM
Because Tebow doesn't play Defense but makes them play better

Champ Bailey plays harder for Tim Tebow.

RaiderH8r
11-22-2011, 11:32 AM
Hey everyone. Tebow is the Broncos lone member of the training/medical staff. He is the one who made Dumervil better.

Wouldn't surprise me if he is a faith healer. Wouldn't surprise me at all. Pretty sure Tebow is the reason DT has managed to stay out of the training room for consecutive games as well. When you get Tebow you get the whole package.

oubronco
11-22-2011, 11:32 AM
Champ Bailey plays harder because Tim Tebow makes him.

FIFY

Shotgun Willie
11-22-2011, 11:35 AM
I'll show you were you said that as soon as you.....

Just like I thought. Another lie and you got caught.

RaiderH8r
11-22-2011, 11:36 AM
That 95 yard drive to beat the Jets was pretty f'ing sweet though. Pretty. F'ing. Sweet.

jhns
11-22-2011, 11:38 AM
Just like I thought. Another lie and you got caught.

Spin all you want clown. You had to create a new account. It was that bad for you. So sad.

The people on the internet are hurting my feelings again! I need to start over!

KO5K
11-22-2011, 11:40 AM
FIFY

Champ's the one that said it, not me.

I play harder for Tim Tebow (the one that beat the Sooners in the national championship).

http://students.cis.uab.edu/daniel81/TimTebow_Nationaltitle.jpg

Shotgun Willie
11-22-2011, 11:40 AM
Spin all you want clown.

Spin? That's what you call it when you claim I said something that I never said and then I ask you to prove it with one example?

DrFate
11-22-2011, 11:41 AM
That 95 yard drive to beat the Jets was pretty f'ing sweet though. Pretty. F'ing. Sweet.

It WOULD be sweet if it were Orton.

Since it was Tebow, credit the defense.

jhns
11-22-2011, 11:43 AM
Spin? That's what you call it when you claim I said something that I never said and then I ask you to prove it with one example?

Yup.

So, what got you so embarrassed on a random forum that you needed to create a new account? I think you should stop being so sensitive and man up.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
11-22-2011, 11:43 AM
It WOULD be sweet if it were Orton.

Since it was Tebow, credit the defense.

Who's making that claim? Oh, right. Nobody.

Strawmen for everyone!

jhns
11-22-2011, 11:46 AM
Who's making that claim? Oh, right. Nobody.

Strawmen for everyone!

You mean like the claims that everyone is arguing Elway needs to say Tebow is the future?

I guess we shpuldn't expect anything less from a guy that continually cries about others acting childish, as he acts childish...

The stupidity is funny though.

Shotgun Willie
11-22-2011, 11:46 AM
What's funny is jhns used to be the biggest McD and Orton fan of anyone here.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
11-22-2011, 11:50 AM
What's funny is jhns used to be the biggest McD and Orton fan of anyone here.

I... really don't remember that.

jhns
11-22-2011, 11:50 AM
What's funny is jhns used to be the biggest McD and Orton fan of anyone here.

Just wow. I almost thought you couldn't get dumber.

Shotgun Willie
11-22-2011, 11:55 AM
Just wow. I almost thought you couldn't get dumber.

Whatever, McFan.

Dedhed
11-22-2011, 11:58 AM
Sorry, but you're going to have to explain that. The defense is better BECAUSE of Tebow? Not because they're better coached, or they've taken a different strategy, or because Von Miller is clicking in the system and starting to turn it on, or because Allen has the unit playing at a higher level. It's because of the quarterback.The defense is better because they don't have to deal with scrambling onto the field after turnovers. The defense is better because the offense that Tebow is running puts them on the field less. The defense is better because they play harder knowing that there is always a chance with Tebow if they can just hang in there and give a little more effort. The defense is better because they see their quarterback line up a DB and try to kill him instead of turtling out of bounds, and they love that the leader of the team puts himself on the line for them, and they respond likewise.

If you don't understand that teammates are inspired by teammates, I can see why you would have no idea how they could be better BECAUSE of Tebow. If you have looked in a teammates eyes and believed that together you can accomplish anything. You would know that one guy, especially THE (quarterback) guy makes a difference to every player on a team. That one guy can mean far more than what his direct actions contribute to a game.

If you don't understand that, then you don't understand sports. You don't understand how Willis Reed wins a game by playing mere seconds. And you clearly don't understand.

As for ignoring those posts, you left out any and all context. I don't remember every post I've ever made on this board. Maybe you do, and maybe I've smoked too much weed through the years. Either way, without context, those posts mean absolutely nothing. Context in this case refers to posts I was referencing, threads the posts came in, etc.The context was, we were losing games, and you were calling out the defense, the WRs, the RBs, the OL. Blaming anyone but Orton. Now the context is we're winning games, and you're crediting the WRs, the Defense, the OL, anyone but Tebow.

jhns
11-22-2011, 11:59 AM
Whatever, McFan.

You got me Mr. I Embarrassed Myself So Much On A Random Forum That I Needed ANew Account.

Shotgun Willie
11-22-2011, 12:00 PM
The defense is better because the offense that Tebow is running puts them on the field less.

This is actually factually incorrect. One would think that a "ball control/running first" offense would keep the defense off the field, but in reality, the opposition has been running just as many offensive plays now as before the change.

Shotgun Willie
11-22-2011, 12:00 PM
You got me Mr. I Embarrassed Myself So Much On A Random Forum That I Needed ANew Account.

Nice spin, McFan.

DrFate
11-22-2011, 12:01 PM
This is actually factually incorrect. One would think that a "ball control/running first" offense would keep the defense off the field, but in reality, the opposition has been running just as many offensive plays now as before the change.

Orton - 155 attempts, 7 INTs
Tebow - 125 attempts, 1 INT

RaiderH8r
11-22-2011, 12:03 PM
This is actually factually incorrect. One would think that a "ball control/running first" offense would keep the defense off the field, but in reality, the opposition has been running just as many offensive plays now as before the change.

Going three and out and putting the opposition inside the twenty is better than going 5 plays and throwing a pick at midfield.

jhns
11-22-2011, 12:04 PM
Nice spin, McFan.

Horrible trolling attempt. You could at least come with your own material.

Oh wait, you would need a brain to pull that off.

Shotgun Willie
11-22-2011, 12:11 PM
Orton - 155 attempts, 7 INTs
Tebow - 125 attempts, 1 INT

Going three and out and putting the opposition inside the twenty is better than going 5 plays and throwing a pick at midfield.

I fail to see how either of these statement, while factually correct, have ANYTHING to do with my rebuttal of dedhed's statement that the defense is on the field for fewer plays under Tebow.

KO5K
11-22-2011, 12:12 PM
What's funny is jhns used to be the biggest McD and Orton fan of anyone here.

Referring to something that took place years before your join date.

Interesting...

Shotgun Willie
11-22-2011, 12:14 PM
Referring to something that took place years before your join date.

Interesting...

Wow. Really? When did it happen?

jhns
11-22-2011, 12:19 PM
Wow. Really? When did it happen?

Why would you be so embarressed on a random message board? Do you even know a single person here in real life? Did too many people make fun of you until you got a new account? Poor thing.

Shotgun Willie
11-22-2011, 12:20 PM
Why would you be so embarressed on a random message board? Do you even know a single person here in real life? Did too many people make fun of you until you got a new account? Poor thing.

Nice Spin.

jhns
11-22-2011, 12:23 PM
Nice Spin.

Poor thing. Do you need a shoulder to cry on? Where we too mean to you?

Shotgun Willie
11-22-2011, 12:25 PM
Poor thing. Do you need a shoulder to cry on? Where we too mean to you?

You used to be a lot more fun on the SD boards. When did you stop being a Charger fan anyway?

Dedhed
11-22-2011, 12:27 PM
This is actually factually incorrect. One would think that a "ball control/running first" offense would keep the defense off the field, but in reality, the opposition has been running just as many offensive plays now as before the change.

Um..Not even close to being true. With Tebow we've won time of possession in 4 out of 5 starts.

With Orton we were on the positive side of that equation once in 5 starts.

Do you ever try to be accurate, or do you reach into your crack for everything and just hope people think you're telling the truth?

BroncoBeavis
11-22-2011, 12:27 PM
Who's making that claim? Oh, right. Nobody.

Strawmen for everyone!

No offense, Ky, but you throw up at least one scarecrow per (Tebow) thread.

jhns
11-22-2011, 12:29 PM
You used to be a lot more fun on the SD boards. When did you stop being a Charger fan anyway?

Poor whittle fella. Still can't post under your real account I see. It is alsmost sad to see what a little bitch you are. I would be ashamed to have such low self esteem.

Shotgun Willie
11-22-2011, 12:29 PM
Um..Not even close to being true. With Tebow we've won time of possession in 4 out of 5 starts.

With Orton we were on the positive side of that equation once in 5 starts.

Do you ever try to be accurate, or do you reach into your crack for everything and just hope people think you're telling the truth?

TOP does not equal offensive plays run. I looked at this very issue just a week or two ago, before the three and out extravaganza of this past week which only helps my argument.

jhns
11-22-2011, 12:30 PM
Um..Not even close to being true. With Tebow we've won time of possession in 4 out of 5 starts.

With Orton we were on the positive side of that equation once in 5 starts.

Do you ever try to be accurate, or do you reach into your crack for everything and just hope people think you're telling the truth?

Is it a mystery why he keeps creating new accounts? This one will go away by the end of the year.

Shotgun Willie
11-22-2011, 12:33 PM
Call it public service. The longer your retarded ass focuses on me, the better off the rest of the board can be. I'm in your head now.

Bronco Yoda
11-22-2011, 12:35 PM
We've managed somehow to win 4 out to the last 5 games.... and peeps are pissed off beyond belief.

go figure

jhns
11-22-2011, 12:36 PM
Call it public service. The longer your retarded ass focuses on me, the better off the rest of the board can be. I'm in your head now.

LOL

The little bitch sure is a stand up guy for someone with no spine.

Dedhed
11-22-2011, 12:41 PM
TOP does not equal offensive plays run. I looked at this very issue just a week or two ago, before the three and out extravaganza of this past week which only helps my argument.

You said I was wrong in saying that the defense spent less time on the field. I was not in any way incorrect.

Because an opposing offense has to squeeze more plays into the time they have, does not change the fact that the defense has been on the field less.

jhns
11-22-2011, 12:44 PM
You said I was wrong in saying that the defense spent less time on the field. I was not in any way incorrect.

Because an opposing offense has to squeeze more plays into the time they have, does not change the fact that the defense has been on the field less.

But time of possession doesn't show the time they were on the field!

LOL

Brilliant!

RaiderH8r
11-22-2011, 12:49 PM
We've managed somehow to win 4 out to the last 5 games.... and peeps are pissed off beyond belief.

go figure

Can't figure. Usually firebombing the Fade and Queefs at their houses, in back to back weeks no less, is cause for celebration. Taking down the Jets at home to put us three in a row is cause for elation. Rolling into SD with this momentum in a true test game that will set the course for how the rest of the season plays out is cause for speculation. But for whatever reason we're just not going to allow ourselves to be collectively happy are we? I mean honestly, I am stoked to see Von put a blindside on Phyllis and break his arse in two. Say what you will about Sanchize but he took more than a few licks in that game and got up and he probably should have stayed down. I want to see Phyllis give up and quit, right there on the field. I want to see him stripped of his will to play. Oh how I want the Chuggers to suffer. This week we roll it all out and shock the world.

Shotgun Willie
11-22-2011, 12:52 PM
You said I was wrong in saying that the defense spent less time on the field. I was not in any way incorrect.

Because an opposing offense has to squeeze more plays into the time they have, does not change the fact that the defense has been on the field less.

But time of possession doesn't show the time they were on the field!

LOL

Brilliant!

Time of possession is a flawed statistic. Running out of bounds vs falling in the field of play on just a few plays over the course of the game can swing it by entire minutes. And kneel downs at the end of halves swings it even more. Timeouts called on defense? Even more.

Either way, the game lasts 3 hrs to 3 hrs and 15 minutes. The number of snaps a defense is out there for means much more.

What would tire a defense out more: being on the field for 71 plays over the course of 3 hrs or being on the field for 60 plays over 3 hrs?

jhns
11-22-2011, 12:57 PM
:facepalm

It is very clear why this guy has to create new accounts.

Dedhed
11-22-2011, 01:01 PM
Time of possession is a flawed statistic. Running out of bounds vs falling in the field of play on just a few plays over the course of the game can swing it by entire minutes. And kneel downs at the end of halves swings it even more. Timeouts called on defense? Even more.

Either way, the game lasts 3 hrs to 3 hrs and 15 minutes. The number of snaps a defense is out there for means much more.

What would tire a defense out more: being on the field for 71 plays over the course of 3 hrs or being on the field for 60 plays over 3 hrs?

I can't even believe I have to make this argument. TOP shows how much time the defense was required to be on the field while there was the chance of something happening.

You realize that you're arguing that "being on the field less" has nothing to do with how long they were on the field. Take a moment to think that over. A long moment.

Shotgun Willie
11-22-2011, 01:07 PM
I can't even believe I have to make this argument. TOP shows how much time the defense was required to be on the field while there was the chance of something happening.

You realize that you're arguing that "being on the field less" has nothing to do with how long they were on the field. Take a moment to think that over. A long moment.

vs. KC 2 weeks ago, there was a SEVEN minute difference in TOP, yet we only ran one more offensive play than them.

errand
11-22-2011, 01:34 PM
Um..Not even close to being true. With Tebow we've won time of possession in 4 out of 5 starts.

With Orton we were on the positive side of that equation once in 5 starts.

Do you ever try to be accurate, or do you reach into your crack for everything and just hope people think you're telling the truth?

Average TOP for first 4 games was about 29 minutes...

Average TOP under Tebow starts is about 31 minutes....

Tossed out SD game due to they both played one half each and didn't feel like adding up each half's top per QB

Shotgun Willie
11-22-2011, 01:36 PM
Average TOP for first 4 games was about 29 minutes...

Average TOP under Tebow starts is about 31 minutes....

Tossed out SD game due to they both played one half each and didn't feel like adding up each half's top per QB

Yup, and defenses under Tebow and Orton both faced on average 65-66 snaps per game. No difference.

Dedhed
11-22-2011, 01:40 PM
vs. KC 2 weeks ago, there was a SEVEN minute difference in TOP, yet we only ran one more offensive play than them.

So what? Was the KC defense on the field more than Denver's? Yes.

Shotgun Willie
11-22-2011, 01:47 PM
So what? Was the KC defense on the field more than Denver's? Yes.

I disagree. Unless the game actually lasts 60 minutes in real time, then TOP doesn't mean a whole heck of a lot and isn't a truly accurate measure of who is actually out there more.

Dedhed
11-22-2011, 01:53 PM
I disagree. Unless the game actually lasts 60 minutes in real time, then TOP doesn't mean a whole heck of a lot and isn't a truly accurate measure of who is actually out there more.
Would you use more energy running for 20 minutes or for 30 minutes?

Shotgun Willie
11-22-2011, 02:06 PM
Would you use more energy running for 20 minutes or for 30 minutes?

30 obviously, if you don't stop at all. But this is the NFL. They're not running for 30 straight minutes. They're running on average 5-10 seconds a play times x however many plays they're on the field. Which is why the number of plays figure is more important IMO.

Which play causes you to use more energy as a defender:

Play A which goes out of bounds and takes 5 seconds to run and takes 5 seconds off the game clock
Play B which ends in the field of play and takes 5 seconds to run and 35 seconds off the clock

According to your logic, you are saying Play B solely because the defense is "out there" longer. When really, they're not.

jhns
11-22-2011, 02:11 PM
So, based on recent posts, I set the over/under for this guys next account at two weeks.

Shotgun Willie
11-22-2011, 02:16 PM
So, based on recent posts, I set the over/under for this guys next account at two weeks.

I'm in your head now. Lovin it.

jhns
11-22-2011, 02:18 PM
I'm in your head now. Lovin it.

Well, you will have to re-get in my head when you decide to cry and create a new account again.

Dedhed
11-22-2011, 02:22 PM
30 obviously, if you don't stop at all. But this is the NFL. They're not running for 30 straight minutes. They're running on average 5-10 seconds a play times x however many plays they're on the field. Which is why the number of plays figure is more important IMO.

Which play causes you to use more energy as a defender:

Play A which goes out of bounds and takes 5 seconds to run and takes 5 seconds off the game clock
Play B which ends in the field of play and takes 5 seconds to run and 35 seconds off the clock

According to your logic, you are saying Play B solely because the defense is "out there" longer. When really, they're not.So say one play takes 10 seconds and one takes 5. Which play causes the defense to use more energy?

Shotgun Willie
11-22-2011, 02:28 PM
So say one play takes 10 seconds and one takes 5. Which play causes the defense to use more energy?

The 10 second play obviously, if we're talking about 10 seconds of play from whistle to whistle.

bronco militia
11-22-2011, 02:28 PM
oh, so john was talking about Orton

who knew

Dedhed
11-22-2011, 02:36 PM
The 10 second play obviously, if we're talking about 10 seconds of play from whistle to whistle.

Yay. Here's a cookie.

TonyR
11-22-2011, 05:17 PM
Would you use more energy running for 20 minutes or for 30 minutes?

Clearly you don't understand how the game clock works...

Beyond that, Shotgun is correct that it's a flawed statistic. It doesn't mean nothing, but it can also be very misleading. For example, a defense doesn't run any less against a team that mostly passes and moves quickly down the field than it does against a team that mostly runs and moves slowly down the field. At the end of the day it's clearly more important for an offense to score with the football than to just possess it.

Dedhed
11-22-2011, 07:20 PM
Clearly you don't understand how the game clock works...
Does it count down using standard minutes and seconds?

fontaine
11-23-2011, 06:47 AM
I'd have a problem with using our 1st or 2nd round pick on a QB, we have other major needs that don't have someone with Tebow's potential there (DT, MLB, #2 CB, TE, additional line depth, additional RB depth, additional WR depth).


Good post. I absolutely agree. If you make a list of 6 essential attributes a QB must have:

height/weight/arm strength,
leadership,
clutch ability/under pressue,
understanding a complex offense/defense,
accuracy on 3rd downs/red zone,
taking care of the ball/limit turnovers

Then Tebow already has high marks on most of those except for accuracy. If that's the only real issue and weakeness then you work on it, work on it, work on it, until it gets better.

So let's try to improve the player we do have, instead of spending yet another high pick on QB (outside of Luck) who's going to be a bigger unkown than Tebow in those areas!!

AlphaSeirra
11-23-2011, 08:05 AM
Broncos 1st Draft Pick in 2012 Draft should be (imo) WR Justin Blackmon OkSt.
Moving right along.
=============

In Tim Tebow's 8 Bronco Starts:
Passing - 1,363 yds, 14 yds/rec, 12 TD's, 4 Ints, PER 79.8
Rushing - 615 yds, 6.2 ypc, 9 TD's, 1 LPF
>>> Total Offense - 1,978 yds, 6.5 yds/play, 21 TD's to just 5 Turnovers.
But St John thinks/believes that the 3rd down % is the bottom line. WTF ???

Elway on Monday pointed out that Tebow has to do better on third downs and improve as a passer.
(ignoring the FACT that Tim is already better than Rookie St. John was)
Elway answered "no" when asked on his weekly radio show on 102.3 FM The Ticket in Denver if the Broncos were
"any closer to feeling if you have your quarterback on this team?"

~ Maybe senile St. John should go back and review his own rookie season before shooting off his arrogant mouth
about how Tim is doing.
* But how did Tim respond to St. John's 'public' idiocy?
Tebow called Elway "one of the best to ever play the game."
(instead of calling him the jerk that he currently is, imo)

Fox said that if he (Tebow) had to run a 'normal' offense, then he'd be 'screwed.'

~ Tebow was running a 'normal' offense in 2010 when he led all rookie QB's with an 82.1 PER.
While Fox in 2010 was drafting 3 TD to 9 Int Jimmy 'da Pickle' Clausen leading him (fox) to getting FIRED by the Panthers.

So how does a raw rookie with little to no help from the e-VP or HBC react to such UNFAIR criticism?

* "I'm honored to play for him and try to win games for him and Coach (John) Fox and (Broncos owner)
Mr. (Pat) Bowlen and everybody involved in this great organization. (Elway's) done so much to build it."

* "I've had a blast living out my dream for the last five weeks," Tebow said. "I will continue to work as hard
as I can to make this organization proud. Every time I step on the field I will give everything I have and I will leave
everything I have on the field every Sunday."

* "I honestly don't pay much attention," Tebow said when asked to respond to Elway's comments. "I don't try
to focus on anything that doesn't affect me personally and how I go out there every single day. I'm just going
to continue to work hard and focus on what I can control."

> Those quotes are from a guy who knows what a TEAM is supposed to be.
Both Fox and Elway are total jerks imoho and should not be allowed out of the BARN without a chaparone and/or
a muzzle for their mouths.

Bowlen can't be all that bright either, he's the one that hired two jerks to represent HIS Broncos and has yet to
rein in either of them for their 'public' stupidity.

The Broncos were 3 for 13 on third downs in their win over the Jets on Thursday night, and Tebow has completed
less than half his passes since replacing Orton.

~ While ALL FIVE of the NFL Network commentators picked the Jets to beat the Broncos.
But wait, the 'Bottom Line' is not about who won the game, it's about 3rd down conversion %. thwack

"When you look at our third-down numbers, those have to improve, and that's the bottom line," Elway said on his
radio show. "... We can't go 3 of 13 and win a world championship."

~ Tell me Senile St. John, how many season did it take YOU to 'Win a SB' with the Broncos.
~ Tell me Senile St. John, how WRONG is it for you to hold an 8 start rookie QB to 'Championship' Standards?

The Colts stood solidly behind a rookie QB that went 3-13 while breaking the NFL Record for Rookie QB Ints. They gave him
EVERY kind of help that they could and defended him to everyone.
It still took that future HoF QB 7 YEARS to take his team to a SB.

You jerks (Bowlen/Elway/Fox) won't stand behind a 5-3 rookie QB that has 21 TD's to just 5 turnovers.
==============

Now, IF Tebow could only develop as a passer, everything would be just fine.

BEFORE ELWAY-FOX and in a 'norman' NFL Offense came to Denver:
Tebow was a better passer than the
Current Top 5 QB's in the NFL were in their first 3 starts.
My question is; what has the Elway/Fox Combo done to screw up Tebow's already demonstrated passing skills?
(besides trading away his Top 2 WR's from 2010)

Tebow's 2010 Preseason:
Passing - 25 of 39, 64.1%, for 344 yds, 13.8 yds/comp, 2 TD's, 2 Ints, PER 87.0
Rushing - 6 for 31 yds, 5.2 ypc, 1 TD, 1 LPF.
Total Offense - 45 plays for 375 yds, 8.3 yds/play, 3 TD's, 3 Ints.

Tebow's 2010 Reg Season, 3 Starts:
Passing - 41 of 82, 50%, for 654 yds, 16 yds/comp, 5 TD's, 3 Ints, PER 82.1
Rushing - 43 for 227 yds, 5.3 ypc, 6 TD's, ZERO LPF's.
Total Offense - 125 plays for 881 yds, 7 yds/play, 11 TD's, 3 turnovers.
(to St. John, Tebow 3rd down conversion rate is the 'bottom line' instead of his Total Off or T-O ratio)

False Claim, Tebow can ONLY run the ball.
Reality, only 34.4% of Tim's 2010 plays were running plays, and that includes pass plays where he
had to scramble or be sacked.

I don't know, could it be the new coaches and/or their STUPID offense, game planning, play calling that's
the root of the problem ???
The same genius's that put 104 Orton ahead of 108 Tebow because they claimed that 1-4 Orton gave them a better
chance to win than a 4-1 Tebow!

Naw, it that 8 start 5-3 QB with the 79.8 Career PER that's the Bronco's problem in 2011.
Elway/Fox > :nutkick < Tebow

bendog
11-23-2011, 08:09 AM
Good post. I absolutely agree. If you make a list of 6 essential attributes a QB must have:

height/weight/arm strength,
leadership,
clutch ability/under pressue,
understanding a complex offense/defense,
accuracy on 3rd downs/red zone,
taking care of the ball/limit turnovers

Then Tebow already has high marks on most of those except for accuracy. If that's the only real issue and weakeness then you work on it, work on it, work on it, until it gets better.

So let's try to improve the player we do have, instead of spending yet another high pick on QB (outside of Luck) who's going to be a bigger unkown than Tebow in those areas!!

I agree, except I don't think Tebow gets marks for either understanding offensive schemes and defensive reads, and his accuracy from the pocket/3rd down. But, being able to throw a 40 yard fly or post and get the ball within a foot of where a qb wants it is NOT a teachable skill. Footwork and reads are teachable, and one thing even doubters like myself have to admit, Tebow is maybe the most coachable player ever.

If Balt offers Luck for Clady, von miller and champ or some wild-ass thing, then maybe it's another story, but that's not going to happen. And besides if its the worst outcome and Tebow just can't get it, the worst thing is Den is around a .500 team, and there are other guys coming out in 2013.

BroncoBeavis
11-23-2011, 08:09 AM
Oh what I would've paid for one of those guys to say to Elway "Yeah, but his 3rd down conversion percentage is higher than yours was, John."

Maybe then John would learn he should keep those thoughts to himself.

CEH
11-23-2011, 08:13 AM
Elway is saying a competent passing game is more important than short term wins. That is what he was saying with his empathic "No". He could have said a hunderd different politically correct things but he is greasing the skids for the time he drafts a new QB

BroncoBeavis
11-23-2011, 08:19 AM
Elway is saying a competent passing game is more important than short term wins. That is what he was saying with his empathic "No". He could have said a hunderd different politically correct things but he is greasing the skids for the time he drafts a new QB

The problem is to have a competent passing game, you have to have a competent passing game plan. If you only throw it when 100% of people know you're going to throw it, no QB will make that successful.

Elway at least should've said, while saying 3rd down conversions were a problem, that a lot of the problem is those 3rd and longs.

Mile High Mojoe
11-23-2011, 08:25 AM
Elway is saying a competent passing game is more important than short term wins. That is what he was saying with his empathic "No". He could have said a hunderd different politically correct things but he is greasing the skids for the time he drafts a new QB

This is a big assumption on your part; do you have some insight into the direct thoughts of Elway? Elway doesn't have the foggiest what he's going to do you yet and neither does any of the speculators on this OM who have worked overtime to invent any scenario that brings another untried college QB to the Broncos.

Hey… just in case you guys have forgotten we’re playing the Chargers this Sunday in a big game and have a good shot at making the playoffs if the Broncos win this one. I’ll focus on this instead.

But for the rest of you please forget that and continue to grease the imaginary skids that see Tebow sent out of Denver at seasons end on a “holy” rail.

oubronco
11-23-2011, 08:29 AM
Good post. I absolutely agree. If you make a list of 6 essential attributes a QB must have:

height/weight/arm strength,
leadership,
clutch ability/under pressue,
understanding a complex offense/defense,
accuracy on 3rd downs/red zone,
taking care of the ball/limit turnovers

Then Tebow already has high marks on most of those except for accuracy. If that's the only real issue and weakeness then you work on it, work on it, work on it, until it gets better.

So let's try to improve the player we do have, instead of spending yet another high pick on QB (outside of Luck) who's going to be a bigger unkown than Tebow in those areas!!

I would say that being able to make all the NFL throws would have to be in the equation as well

bendog
11-23-2011, 08:31 AM
Elway is saying a competent passing game is more important than short term wins. That is what he was saying with his empathic "No". He could have said a hunderd different politically correct things but he is greasing the skids for the time he drafts a new QB

He's greasing the skids of the tebowites in case he has to pull the plug on the tebow experiment, but I don't think he's made up his mind about anything in the draft. I sort of like it that the defacto GM and sort of GM are actually out looking at possibilities, though.

CEH
11-23-2011, 08:38 AM
This is a big assumption on your part; do you have some insight into the direct thoughts of Elway? Elway doesn't have the foggiest what he's going to do you yet and neither does any of the speculators on this OM who have worked overtime to invent any scenario that brings another untried college QB to the Broncos.

Hey… just in case you guys have forgotten we’re playing the Chargers this Sunday in a big game and have a good shot at making the playoffs if the Broncos win this one. I’ll focus on this instead.

But for the rest of you please forget that and continue to grease the imaginary skids that see Tebow sent out of Denver at seasons end on a “holy” rail.

Getting all butt hurt look Elway could have bascially taken you point of view on Tebow. "He are in a playoff hunt , blah ,blah , blah let see where we are at at seasons' end. "

That however is not what he said and he said "No" with a purpose in mind.
and yes I have insight from ppl around Elway but not from Elway himself. Maybe John is blowing smoke who knows. Playoffs change everthing for several reasons

Drunk Monkey
11-23-2011, 10:19 AM
http://network.yardbarker.com/nfl/article_external/backyard/john_elway_may_not_support_tim_tebow_but_these_gir ls_in_bikinis_do/8270053?refmod=backyard

John Elway may not support Tim Tebow, but these girls in bikinis do

CEH
11-23-2011, 12:59 PM
Bummer Vic and Gary will be off the air in 40 days when the station switches over to ESPN. Hope they can find a home somewhere else