The inevitable collapse of the dollar

[Popcorn Sutton]

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/4n3g5lUgkWk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[Smiling Assassin27]

All sorts of win in that clip.

[Rohirrim]

Sure, this will peel all the wealth off the top. So what? And there will be an intensive realignment of trade and wealth. But guess what? America is self-sustaining. If the walls of trade collapse, we have 350 million people who can be sustained by the wealth and productivity of their own country. Can China? Not on your ****ing life. Without our rice, they're ****ed. Money is not the only "currency" of the world. America could make major changes in it's energy usage (coal, natural gas, etc.) and still be cruising along. Can Asia? Can India? When you talk about apocalyptic scenarios, here's what you're talking about: Food and water. We produce far more food than we need. When the **** hits the fan, Asia is going to need to feed those billions, no matter where the currency is at.

[Popcorn Sutton]

Sure, this will peel all the wealth off the top. So what? And there will be an intensive realignment of trade and wealth. But guess what? America is self-sustaining. If the walls of trade collapse, we have 350 million people who can be sustained by the wealth and productivity of their own country. Can China? Not on your ****ing life. Without our rice, they're ****ed. Money is not the only "currency" of the world. America could make major changes in it's energy usage (coal, natural gas, etc.) and still be cruising along. Can Asia? Can India? When you talk about apocalyptic scenarios, here's what you're talking about: Food and water. We produce far more food than we need. When the **** hits the fan, Asia is going to need to feed those billions, no matter where the currency is at.

Reading this I couldn't help but think about a commodity that has a drastic effect on our economy here in the US and we import a majority of it.

Oil not only powers our cars but it powers our homes and businesses....

Your self sustaining theory is interesting but I'm not sure it's completely true. I think we rely in imports a lot more than you are letting on and if the value of the dollar crashes, we're going to be in deep ****.

[Rohirrim]

Reading this I couldn't help but think about a commodity that has a drastic effect on our economy here in the US and we import a majority of it.

Oil not only powers our cars but it powers our homes and businesses....

Your self sustaining theory is interesting but I'm not sure it's completely true. I think we rely in imports a lot more than you are letting on and if the value of the dollar crashes, we're going to be in deep ****.

Only for a short while. Then we pull back our industry from abroad. Why? Because a collapsed dollar will make the yen and euro explode. Then, we start making our own stuff again, and obviously, we stop buying their stuff. Then what happens to their currencies? America is still the technological powerhouse of the world. What is Asia but a bunch of copiers? When we are called upon to innovate our way out, we will. And we won't have billions of mouths to feed in the interim.

[Popcorn Sutton]

Only for a short while. Then we pull back our industry from abroad. Why? Because a collapsed dollar will make the yen and euro explode. Then, we start making our own stuff again, and obviously, we stop buying their stuff. Then what happens to their currencies? America is still the technological powerhouse of the world. What is Asia but a bunch of copiers? When we are called upon to innovate our way out, we will. And we won't have billions of mouths to feed in the interim.

Interesting theory.... I need to chew on it for a bit. ;D

[Tombstone RJ]

Only for a short while. Then we pull back our industry from abroad. Why? Because a collapsed dollar will make the yen and euro explode. Then, we start making our own stuff again, and obviously, we stop buying their stuff. Then what happens to their currencies? America is still the technological powerhouse of the world. What is Asia but a bunch of copiers? When we are called upon to innovate our way out, we will. And we won't have billions of mouths to feed in the interim.

that's all fine and good but people can't live on the barter system. You have to pay for things and that takes---money. There's not enough farmers in this country to sustain everyone. If we want to develop our own energy that takes steel and concrete and tools and people and engineers, etc., etc., etc., How are you going to pay all these people and buy all the raw materials to build all this imaginary stuff? Is everyone just going to live off IOU's? Is everyone going to barter? What is the accountant down the street going to be doing, or the lawyers or the restaurant owners during this imaginary time line? How is product going to get to the people? Are farmers just going to grow food and then hand it out? Who's gonna make the bread? Who's going to produce the energy for electricity to power homes at night? Is all this just going to happen because everyone agrees to just do it?

Nope.

This is pretty much why money was invented. It's a way for people to buy things so they don't have to barter when they have nothing to barter with.

Are you suggesting that the dollar is only good in the USA? That is, while the USA is "regrouping" eveyone uses the dollar within the boundaries of the USA even though it holds not value? How does that work exactly? Don't other countries have that very problem right now? That is, their currency is worthless so people can't buy anything?

I know what you are saying but the reality is this would never work. What would happen is more akin to a Mad Max movie in that chaos will ensue.

[Rohirrim]

I've been tracking farm purchases for the last year. The land disappears as fast as it comes on market. American farmland is the hottest buy on the market:
http://curiouscapitalist.blogs.time.com/2011/06/01/americas-hottest-investment-farmland/

Rich governments and corporations are buying up the rights to millions of hectares of agricultural land in developing countries in an effort to secure their own long-term food supplies. The head of the Food and Agriculture Organisation (FAO), Jacques Diouf, has warned that the controversial rise in land deals could create a form of "neocolonialism", with poor states producing food for the rich at the expense of their own hungry people. The South Korean firm Daewoo Logistics has secured a large piece of farmland in Madagascar to grow maize and crops for biofuels. Libya has secured 250,000 hectares of Ukrainian farmland, and China has begun to explore land deals in Southeast Asia.[37] Oil-rich Arab investors, including the sovereign wealth funds, are looking into Sudan, Ethiopia, Ukraine, Kazakhstan, Pakistan, Cambodia and Thailand.[38]
Some countries are using the acquisition of land for agriculture in return for other gains. Egypt is seeking land acquisition in Ukraine in exchange for access to its natural gas. Qatar has plans to lease 40,000 hectares of agricultural land along Kenya's coast to grow fruit and vegetables, in return for building a £2.4 billion port close to the Indian Ocean tourist island of Lamu.[39]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_security

There are a whole bunch of smart people out there who see the writing on the wall. From the sound of it, they already see the crash of currency as a done deal. Buy a farm. Get yourself on the path to self-sustenance and you'll get through the times to come. Of course, that's only if we don't switch to a dictatorship during the bad times (which is what usually happens) and all land is nationalized. Then, instead of just debt peonage and wage slavery, you can enjoy true peonage. ;D

Did you know that 25% of the grain produced in America is used for fuel?

[alkemical]

Reading this I couldn't help but think about a commodity that has a drastic effect on our economy here in the US and we import a majority of it.

Oil not only powers our cars but it powers our homes and businesses....

Your self sustaining theory is interesting but I'm not sure it's completely true. I think we rely in imports a lot more than you are letting on and if the value of the dollar crashes, we're going to be in deep ****.

I haarp on this from time to time:

I think we need to evaluate our AG practices. We need to change the tax structure and remove the subsidies for NOT growing XYZ products and allow AG to fill in the gaps in the local/regional markets. Some of the areas are a little more screwed (Like Hershey PA) - where a lot of farm land was sold for condos and townhouses.

But anyway - my point: AG uses an incredible amount of Petrol in the way it's business is currently done. I'm not talking about Tractors & Combines - but the chemicals uses in AG: Fertilizers, Pesticides, etc etc.

NYC has several HUGE rooftop gardens going - it also helps alleviate their "import" of goods also. (which also reduces transportation cost & petrol consumption.)

We rely on imports due to poor decision making. We have incredible opportunities, but we have some hurdles.

A friend of mine sent me information about the GPI - I have been spending some time looking at this, and wonder why we can't start building sustainable infrastructure?

[alkemical]

that's all fine and good but people can't live on the barter system. You have to pay for things and that takes---money. There's not enough farmers in this country to sustain everyone. If we want to develop our own energy that takes steel and concrete and tools and people and engineers, etc., etc., etc., How are you going to pay all these people and buy all the raw materials to build all this imaginary stuff? Is everyone just going to live off IOU's? Is everyone going to barter? What is the accountant down the street going to be doing, or the lawyers or the restaurant owners during this imaginary time line? How is product going to get to the people? Are farmers just going to grow food and then hand it out? Who's gonna make the bread? Who's going to produce the energy for electricity to power homes at night? Is all this just going to happen because everyone agrees to just do it?

Nope.

This is pretty much why money was invented. It's a way for people to buy things so they don't have to barter when they have nothing to barter with.

Are you suggesting that the dollar is only good in the USA? That is, while the USA is "regrouping" eveyone uses the dollar within the boundaries of the USA even though it holds not value? How does that work exactly? Don't other countries have that very problem right now? That is, their currency is worthless so people can't buy anything?

I know what you are saying but the reality is this would never work. What would happen is more akin to a Mad Max movie in that chaos will ensue.

Actually - food production is much easier than you think, in terms of feeding people - also - what happened to the generations of people who used to grow gardens?

I don't know how familiar you are with barter, and how it works - but it's going to be a big part of the economy for a little while. (one of the reasons i'm also pushing for a local currency in my location).

But it works: I've bartered over $20k worth of goods/services - and got...goods & services (and a vehicle!). If you don't have a good or service, then you will probably be exchanging "sweat equity" for your good & service (which in a way...you do know by earning "credits").

not to mention - I've also done "partnerships" with a B2B platform - where basically it was "barter". On paper it has a "transaction", but in reality - no $ really changed hands.

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2011/10/28/black_market_global_economy?page=full

The Shadow Superpower
Forget China: the $10 trillion global black market is the world's fastest growing economy -- and its future.


If Barter is working elsewhere, and has a huge ecology as it is...why wouldn't it work here?

[alkemical]

Just as an example to for some people here:

for $50/mo I am growing:

1 roma tomato plant
1 jalapeno plant
1 bell pepper plant
2 heads of romaine lettuce
****ake mushrooms
spices: basil, oregano, wheat grass (juicing - also needs no light), mint


This is done in a 3x3x6 area (granted my upfront investment was about $800)

[Tombstone RJ]

I've been tracking farm purchases for the last year. The land disappears as fast as it comes on market. American farmland is the hottest buy on the market:
http://curiouscapitalist.blogs.time.com/2011/06/01/americas-hottest-investment-farmland/

Rich governments and corporations are buying up the rights to millions of hectares of agricultural land in developing countries in an effort to secure their own long-term food supplies. The head of the Food and Agriculture Organisation (FAO), Jacques Diouf, has warned that the controversial rise in land deals could create a form of "neocolonialism", with poor states producing food for the rich at the expense of their own hungry people. The South Korean firm Daewoo Logistics has secured a large piece of farmland in Madagascar to grow maize and crops for biofuels. Libya has secured 250,000 hectares of Ukrainian farmland, and China has begun to explore land deals in Southeast Asia.[37] Oil-rich Arab investors, including the sovereign wealth funds, are looking into Sudan, Ethiopia, Ukraine, Kazakhstan, Pakistan, Cambodia and Thailand.[38]
Some countries are using the acquisition of land for agriculture in return for other gains. Egypt is seeking land acquisition in Ukraine in exchange for access to its natural gas. Qatar has plans to lease 40,000 hectares of agricultural land along Kenya's coast to grow fruit and vegetables, in return for building a £2.4 billion port close to the Indian Ocean tourist island of Lamu.[39]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_security

There are a whole bunch of smart people out there who see the writing on the wall. From the sound of it, they already see the crash of currency as a done deal. Buy a farm. Get yourself on the path to self-sustenance and you'll get through the times to come. Of course, that's only if we don't switch to a dictatorship during the bad times (which is what usually happens) and all land is nationalized. Then, instead of just debt peonage and wage slavery, you can enjoy true peonage. ;D

Did you know that 25% of the grain produced in America is used for fuel?

my family already owns farmland, thank you. I want to grow hemp, but the friggen fed gov is so friggen stupid that this will never happen.

again, our fed gov is more of a problem than a solution and you're the one voting for a moron like BO.

vote RP and I might actually be able to grow hemp.

[alkemical]

Hemp & marijuana won't be legal until "The State", figures out how to replace the "revenue stream".

It sucks

[Tombstone RJ]

Hemp & marijuana won't be legal until "The State", figures out how to replace the "revenue stream".

It sucks

hemp seed alone is a fantastic sustainable commodity. Hemp fiber is twice as long as tree fiber and way more recyclable and sustainable. I would not necessarily want to grow marijuana but more of the industrial hemp for textile purposes.

[alkemical]

hemp seed alone is a fantastic sustainable commodity. Hemp fiber is twice as long as tree fiber and way more recyclable and sustainable. I would not necessarily want to grow marijuana but more of the industrial hemp for textile purposes.

Oh I understand, I just have some people that have had success in cancer treatments using THC derrived medicines. I personally have no stake in the "drug war", other than I want it ended due to cost & criminality concerns (not of just the populace, but in my state judges were taking kickbacks from a "privatized" prison).

[Odysseus]

http://www.investopedia.com/articles/economics/08/genuine-progress-indicator-GPI.asp#axzz1e95kfrhX

Perhaps we need a different measure of wealth and/or prosperity. Perhaps consumerism should not be the focal point of business development but the actual real return on investment that can be found on a more localized level.

Barter is extremely effective in economies dictated by hyper inflation. If your cash is worthless than the value of your friends and family farms increases.