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Gutless Drunk
11-15-2011, 03:06 PM
ENGLEWOOD, Colo. -- In his office, where a wall of windows overlooks the Broncos' practice fields and a horizon of snow-capped mountains, head coach John Fox was appreciating the view Monday when his cell phone buzzed with a text.

It was Jake Delhomme, the quarterback who played under Fox during seven seasons together in Carolina, congratulating him on Sunday's win against the Chiefs.

"You're doing it the Foxy way -- I love it!" Delhomme wrote, as recited back by the coach.

"So what exactly is the Foxy way?" I asked.

Fox paused. He smiled. And with the most laid-back, charismatic attitude of any coach in the NFL, he explained it the only way anyone could rationalize a 17-10 win that included only eight passes by quarterback Tim Tebow, against 55 running plays.

"Do whatever the hell it takes," he laughed. "I mean, what the hell? You don't get points for style in this league. Let me tell you something: My man is really good in this offense. You know what I mean?

"If we were trying to run a regular offense, he'd be screwed."
Read more at.....
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d824253ac/article/smart-like-a-fox-broncos-coach-adapts-to-tebows-strengths?module=HP11_content_stream

TheReverend
11-15-2011, 03:16 PM
I've been waiting for this article for two days!

Thanks for posting and repped!

TheReverend
11-15-2011, 03:18 PM
"Do whatever the hell it takes," he laughed. "I mean, what the hell? You don't get points for style in this league. Let me tell you something: My man is really good in this offense. You know what I mean?
"If we were trying to run a regular offense, he'd be screwed."


Holy crap I'm getting a Foxyboner (*trademarking the term)

TheReverend
11-15-2011, 03:22 PM
"After the loss to Detroit (a 45-10 blowout (http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2011103006/2011/REG8/lions@broncos#menu=highlights&tab=recap)), we decided if Tim is going to be our guy, we can't do that other crap," Fox said. "We had to tweak it."

Hell yes!

"Check out 91," says Fox, pointing toward Chiefs linebacker Tamba Hali (http://www.nfl.com/players/tambahali/profile?id=HAL131362). "He's a great rusher, but look how he has to play. He can't even rush. He's just sitting there waiting. He's reading the option.

YES YES YES! Oh man i want to self-congratulate so hard right now.

KO5K
11-15-2011, 03:24 PM
Kinda liked it, kinda hated some of the quotes Fox dropped.

Good insight nonetheless.

jhns
11-15-2011, 03:26 PM
Good read. I get the impression that I have been right about the Tebow situation. If he wins enough that we are out of range of the top QBs in the draft, he will get next season. If not, we probably take one.

ScottXray
11-15-2011, 03:30 PM
Love this, especially the comments that they didn't change the plan until AFTER the Detroit game. So when they finally decide to USE Timbows set
of skills, and adapt the offense to them we are 2-0 against division foes, AWAY.

Maybe there is hope for this FO yet.

Obviously TT has to get better passing....but they are going to ride him for this year anyway.

Rohirrim
11-15-2011, 03:32 PM
Good piece. Great info. This offense will work great as long as you don't get behind.

"If we were trying to run a regular offense, he'd be screwed." That doesn't give me the warm fuzzies.

As the old saying goes, "In for a dime, in for a dollar."

bronclvr
11-15-2011, 03:32 PM
This is a great Article, and it is great to hear what Fox has in mind-I have tried to keep an open mind in regards to John Fox, and this is exactly the type of stuff I want to hear-great post, Gutless Drunk (I'm jealous!). :notworthy

I especially like this: "I don't think anyone within the organization is immune to the fact that there may be something special about the guy," the source said. "I don't think anybody is sold on the long-term success of this offense yet -- but I think we've warmed up to it."

TheReverend
11-15-2011, 03:33 PM
Seriously this is the BEST NFL.com article I've ever read.

Smilin Assassin
11-15-2011, 03:36 PM
In a multi-million dollar business, where teams should do WHATEVER it takes to win....would it make sense to reach out to someone such as Urban Myer?

Not as OC or QB coach...but maybe an offense advisor? Just throwing it out there as an idea.

I mean, the guy knows this offense AND Tim better than anyone. If the guy would return to any coaching, I think he'd love the idea.

Again, just throwin it out there...thoughts?

epicSocialism4tw
11-15-2011, 03:37 PM
Good piece. Great info. This offense will work great as long as you don't get behind.

"If we were trying to run a regular offense, he'd be screwed." That doesn't give me the warm fuzzies.

As the old saying goes, "In for a dime, in for a dollar."

He came from behind to make a game out of it or win it late in 5 out of his 7 appearances, including 17, 15, and 10 point fourth quarter comeback victories.

This team could never come from behind with Ortie, but it doesn't seem to be a problem with Tebow.

SonOfLe-loLang
11-15-2011, 03:45 PM
Good piece. Great info. This offense will work great as long as you don't get behind.

"If we were trying to run a regular offense, he'd be screwed." That doesn't give me the warm fuzzies.

As the old saying goes, "In for a dime, in for a dollar."

True, but already in Tim's small sample size, he's proven a few times he can lead the broncos back from behind.

SonOfLe-loLang
11-15-2011, 03:45 PM
This is a great Article, and it is great to hear what Fox has in mind-I have tried to keep an open mind in regards to John Fox, and this is exactly the type of stuff I want to hear-great post, Gutless Drunk (I'm jealous!). :notworthy

I especially like this: "I don't think anyone within the organization is immune to the fact that there may be something special about the guy," the source said. "I don't think anybody is sold on the long-term success of this offense yet -- but I think we've warmed up to it."

Im convinced this is elway

bendog
11-15-2011, 03:48 PM
Im convinced this is elway

Well, I've always thought he's pretty smart about football, so it's possible I guess, though I really doubt he makes any statement that isn't calculated and vetted.

TheReverend
11-15-2011, 03:53 PM
In a multi-million dollar business, where teams should do WHATEVER it takes to win....would it make sense to reach out to someone such as Urban Myer?

Not as OC or QB coach...but maybe an offense advisor? Just throwing it out there as an idea.

I mean, the guy knows this offense AND Tim better than anyone. If the guy would return to any coaching, I think he'd love the idea.

Again, just throwin it out there...thoughts?

I've thought that's extreme.

The current staff has done more than adequate over the past couple weeks.

That being said, we'll know when it faces a defense like the Jets come Thursday night.

DomCasual
11-15-2011, 03:55 PM
That was incredible! Seriously, if I would have looked up and found that I had just been duped into reading an article in The Onion, I wouldn't have been shocked.

Can you imagine Mike Shanahan ever saying, "we decided if Tim is going to be our guy, we can't do that other crap?"

John Fox is a crazy man! My appreciation of him just went up - a lot!

Dedhed
11-15-2011, 03:58 PM
Seriously this is the BEST NFL.com article I've ever read.
I don't know much about Jeff Darlington, but I saw him on NFLN talking about his time with John Fox, and it was far different than the normal pablum you hear from most beat reporters.

epicSocialism4tw
11-15-2011, 04:00 PM
I have been saying it for awhile now, but this is a good coaching staff who have been malleable all season.

ludo21
11-15-2011, 04:00 PM
I appreciate his honesty!

I think Tebow can throw a bit better than they give him credit for, but if it works, alright!

The Jets game is going to tell all imo.

Will it work against a top5 D? What if Tebow is forced to pass?

Keep manageable 3rd downs and TT will do fine

epicSocialism4tw
11-15-2011, 04:03 PM
I appreciate his honesty!

I think Tebow can throw a bit better than they give him credit for, but if it works, alright!

The Jets game is going to tell all imo.

Will it work against a top5 D? What if Tebow is forced to pass?

Keep manageable 3rd downs and TT will do fine

The "tell all" will be what this offense looks like in week 14,15,16,17.

ludo21
11-15-2011, 04:06 PM
The "tell all" will be what this offense looks like in week 14,15,16,17.

true, even with an offseason what could it become

maher_tyler
11-15-2011, 04:18 PM
Seriously this is the BEST NFL.com article I've ever read.

I agree. I wasn't sure what to think about him saying "we can't do that other crap." He was straight forward and said what he thought, i like that. For everyone looking for us to chuck the ball around the field this week, it's not happening! We're going to run the ball down there throats. I hope they have a plan on what to do if we get down by 14-17. Hopefully they throw some bootlegs and naked bootlegs in there.

bronco_diesel
11-15-2011, 04:21 PM
Good piece. Great info. This offense will work great as long as you don't get behind.


I keep reading that, but they were behind against Oakland and continued with this offense and came back and won.

SonOfLe-loLang
11-15-2011, 04:24 PM
I keep reading that, but they were behind against Oakland and continued with this offense and came back and won.

if they get behind, the offense will get more passing oriented and Tim has proven capable in this regard

bronco_diesel
11-15-2011, 04:30 PM
if they get behind, the offense will get more passing oriented and Tim has proven capable in this regard

Obviously if they get behind more passing will be needed.

I keep hearing they can't get behind in this style of offense. What style? The read option or running 55 times?

They did come back using a read option against Oakland. They played with a lead against KC and could afford to only pass 8 times.

yerner
11-15-2011, 04:38 PM
i can't believe people are happy about a quarterback that can't throw.

Inkana7
11-15-2011, 04:39 PM
if they get behind, the offense will get more passing oriented and Tim has proven capable in this regard

lol wut

Good read. It's rare that you ever read anything with this much insight into the thoughts of a coach.

Chris
11-15-2011, 04:40 PM
From a friend who's a bucs fan - "Pat Yasinksas, our NFC South beat writer, always complained that Fox was one of the most charismatic guys he ever covered, but Fox deliberately kept his quotes and pressers as bland as possible."<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>

TheReverend
11-15-2011, 04:41 PM
i can't believe people are happy about a quarterback that can't throw.

I cant believe you're not happy about a quarterback that wins.

SonOfLe-loLang
11-15-2011, 04:45 PM
lol wut

Good read. It's rare that you ever read anything with this much insight into the thoughts of a coach.

What was confusing about this? He did it against Houston, he did it against Miami, and for a drive he did it against the raiders.

JDB7821
11-15-2011, 04:46 PM
That was a great read. It looks like Fox truly has embraced Tebow's skill set. It'll definitely be interesting to see if they sell out to ride with Tebow in the offseason. Draft a lineman in the first and Demps or Rainey in later rounds. The offense needs more speed, in my opinion.

vonqkilla
11-15-2011, 04:55 PM
True, but already in Tim's small sample size, he's proven a few times he can lead the broncos back from behind.

Cant come from behind as well unless we unleash a no huddle run option dive, and mix in more passes.

You mix in pass and no huddle it will only add to defensive missed assignments which is the goal of option.

CEH
11-15-2011, 05:12 PM
ENGLEWOOD, Colo. -- In his office, where a wall of windows overlooks the Broncos' practice fields and a horizon of snow-capped mountains, head coach John Fox was appreciating the view Monday when his cell phone buzzed with a text.

It was Jake Delhomme, the quarterback who played under Fox during seven seasons together in Carolina, congratulating him on Sunday's win against the Chiefs.

"You're doing it the Foxy way -- I love it!" Delhomme wrote, as recited back by the coach.

"So what exactly is the Foxy way?" I asked.

Fox paused. He smiled. And with the most laid-back, charismatic attitude of any coach in the NFL, he explained it the only way anyone could rationalize a 17-10 win that included only eight passes by quarterback Tim Tebow, against 55 running plays.

"Do whatever the hell it takes," he laughed. "I mean, what the hell? You don't get points for style in this league. Let me tell you something: My man is really good in this offense. You know what I mean?

"If we were trying to run a regular offense, he'd be screwed."
Read more at.....
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d824253ac/article/smart-like-a-fox-broncos-coach-adapts-to-tebows-strengths?module=HP11_content_stream

If we were trying to run a regular offense, he'd be screwed.

Will Elway and Fox go all in and bring the zone read to the NFL? Hard to see Elway hitching his career to Tebow and the zone read given how he was brought up and the type of QB he was

TheReverend
11-15-2011, 05:13 PM
If we were trying to run a regular offense, he'd be screwed.

Will Elway and Fox go all in and bring the zone read to the NFL? Hard to see Elway hitching his career to Tebow and the zone read

They already did...?

CEH
11-15-2011, 05:14 PM
They already did...?

Next year? and for many years from now?

Tombstone RJ
11-15-2011, 05:19 PM
ENGLEWOOD, Colo. -- In his office, where a wall of windows overlooks the Broncos' practice fields and a horizon of snow-capped mountains, head coach John Fox was appreciating the view Monday when his cell phone buzzed with a text.

It was Jake Delhomme, the quarterback who played under Fox during seven seasons together in Carolina, congratulating him on Sunday's win against the Chiefs.

"You're doing it the Foxy way -- I love it!" Delhomme wrote, as recited back by the coach.

"So what exactly is the Foxy way?" I asked.

Fox paused. He smiled. And with the most laid-back, charismatic attitude of any coach in the NFL, he explained it the only way anyone could rationalize a 17-10 win that included only eight passes by quarterback Tim Tebow, against 55 running plays.

"Do whatever the hell it takes," he laughed. "I mean, what the hell? You don't get points for style in this league. Let me tell you something: My man is really good in this offense. You know what I mean?

"If we were trying to run a regular offense, he'd be screwed."
Read more at.....
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d824253ac/article/smart-like-a-fox-broncos-coach-adapts-to-tebows-strengths?module=HP11_content_stream

Fantastic article. This is why I love Fox and the players love Fox. No ego, he just loves the game and figuring out ways to win. If they can keep tweaking this offense and keep developing Tebow as a legitimate pass threat out of this offense it's almost impossible to stop. Why? Because NFL defenses are made to stop the pass. The Jets are a good example, they just payed Revis Island a boat load of money and they have 7 active CB's on their team including Cromartie.

That's a lot of investment in defending the pass.

TheReverend
11-15-2011, 05:20 PM
Next year? and for many years from now?

I think it's here to stay as a sub package with the proper personnel at the least. Wouldn't be surprised to see the Raiders run it with Pryor here and there, or the Panthers or whoever drafts RGIII

Tombstone RJ
11-15-2011, 05:22 PM
i can't believe people are happy about a quarterback that can't throw.

When NFL teams are set up to stop the pass, there's a good possibility that if the Broncos can keep the game close, they can win it in the 4th quarter by running the ball down the opposing team's throat. I think Fox realizes this. It's not pretty, but it may work.

vonqkilla
11-15-2011, 05:33 PM
We gotta have some kind of balance. You have levels of progression in pass plays, vs kc there was basically one, deep. Its not a college offense, its a high school offense.

I dont care if it wins.

Tebow has got to progress as a passer to have any shot next year, no way in hell do we continue with this imo.

jutang
11-15-2011, 05:35 PM
That video clip of Fox was interesting. I dont know how much of it is true with Tebow purposely throwing it in the dirt on that short third down attempt. If true, he getting better at reading defenses.

When I saw the play live, I really thought, "footwork looked decent, balance didn't look off... Wtf happened there!?"

Rohirrim
11-15-2011, 05:37 PM
So, if Fox goes by his word and decides at the end of the year that he's going to stick with Tebow, I hope they find a way to draft Trent Richardson. ;D

MacGruder
11-15-2011, 05:39 PM
Love this, especially the comments that they didn't change the plan until AFTER the Detroit game. So when they finally decide to USE Timbows set
of skills, and adapt the offense to them we are 2-0 against division foes, AWAY.

Maybe there is hope for this FO yet.

Obviously TT has to get better passing....but they are going to ride him for this year anyway.

I don't think Fox has really adapted to Tebow at all.. what he has done is forced Tebow to adapt to him and his defensive oriented scheme. He did the same to Orton too.. and Orton struggled mightily as well.

MacGruder
11-15-2011, 05:46 PM
We gotta have some kind of balance. You have levels of progression in pass plays, vs kc there was basically one, deep. Its not a college offense, its a high school offense.

I dont care if it wins.

Tebow has got to progress as a passer to have any shot next year, no way in hell do we continue with this imo.


What you have to keep in mind though is that throwing it deep and running works very well together.. especially with being so dominant running the ball.

And throwing it deep is very low risk.. if you do get a turnover it doesn't put your D in a bad situation.

Of course the Broncos d has to play well enough to let this system work. against better offenses it may not.

But agin.. people keep saying the Broncos can't win long term being one dimensional.. at least they have a dimension now. With Orton the offense had no dimensions.. no pass game or run game.. the weak run game also hurt Tebow's passing. Developing the run game will help Tebow get acclimated passing.

Armchair Bronco
11-15-2011, 05:54 PM
In a multi-million dollar business, where teams should do WHATEVER it takes to win....would it make sense to reach out to someone such as Urban Myer?

Not as OC or QB coach...but maybe an offense advisor? Just throwing it out there as an idea.

I mean, the guy knows this offense AND Tim better than anyone. If the guy would return to any coaching, I think he'd love the idea.

Again, just throwin it out there...thoughts?

If I were Fox, I'd do this.

Fox should also listen to Skip Bayless. No more of this lining up under center, which Tebow did over 30 times against KC. Tebow needs to be in the shotgun with multiple receivers and in a constant "hurry up" mode. Basically, the way he ran things in the Miami game.

dsmoot
11-15-2011, 06:00 PM
What you have to keep in mind though is that throwing it deep and running works very well together.. especially with being so dominant running the ball.

And throwing it deep is very low risk.. if you do get a turnover it doesn't put your D in a bad situation.

Of course the Broncos d has to play well enough to let this system work. against better offenses it may not.

But agin.. people keep saying the Broncos can't win long term being one dimensional.. at least they have a dimension now. With Orton the offense had no dimensions.. no pass game or run game.. the weak run game also hurt Tebow's passing. Developing the run game will help Tebow get acclimated passing.

Some of the great RAIDER teams did this very well. It was brought up in the recent Al Davis A football life.

enjolras
11-15-2011, 06:22 PM
"See the right tackle? He needs to come up and block the backside backer, who gets in on the play. Timmy is fine. He's done this his whole life. It's the rest of the guys that are learning it. We just put this in two weeks ago."

I love this quote. McGahee said much the same thing last week. The whole offense is only going to get more effective.

footstepsfrom#27
11-15-2011, 07:01 PM
This is a great Article, and it is great to hear what Fox has in mind-I have tried to keep an open mind in regards to John Fox, and this is exactly the type of stuff I want to hear-great post, Gutless Drunk (I'm jealous!). :notworthy

I especially like this: "I don't think anyone within the organization is immune to the fact that there may be something special about the guy," the source said. "I don't think anybody is sold on the long-term success of this offense yet -- but I think we've warmed up to it."
The thing is...they don't have to play this offense long term. Tebow will continue to learn and improve and at some point down the road, I think in the next season or so, he will begin to get it in terms of what he has to do in the pocket, etc...this is just a stop gap till that day comes, and since he was slated for the bench this year anyway, I don't see a problem with letting him lead the team while he's doing what comes more naturally to him while he learns the rest.

Dedhed
11-15-2011, 07:09 PM
i can't believe people are happy about a quarterback that can't throw.

I can't believe people are whining about our first winning streak in 2 years.

Dedhed
11-15-2011, 07:16 PM
The thing is...they don't have to play this offense long term. Tebow will continue to learn and improve and at some point down the road, I think in the next season or so, he will begin to get it in terms of what he has to do in the pocket, etc...this is just a stop gap till that day comes, and since he was slated for the bench this year anyway, I don't see a problem with letting him lead the team while he's doing what comes more naturally to him while he learns the rest.

That's exactly it. The whiners are working on the assumption that the offense isn't going to evolve, which is absurd. Who knows if it will evolve enough to stay ahead of defenses, but we're really only in the 2nd week of this offense, and we're 2-0 in the first two weeks; a pretty solid start against 2 divisional opponents on the road.

This week will be a nice test, and it will be interesting to see what happens if they "get off schedule".

Jay3
11-15-2011, 07:39 PM
I think Fox was drunk in his office when that guy showed up.

vonqkilla
11-15-2011, 07:56 PM
Some of the great RAIDER teams did this very well. It was brought up in the recent Al Davis A football life.

What Al employed as was docimented was take I think sid gilmans offensive passing aystem which put in the levels I was talking about, progressions, deep to short to find a hole or one on one coverage that was beaten by his fast wr.

I didnt see anything like that vs kc, just run, run, chuck it

ShutDownPoster
11-15-2011, 08:18 PM
Great article - gotta love Fox's attitude here - but please get rid of those shoes - wow!

TonyR
11-15-2011, 08:25 PM
The Jets game is going to tell all imo.

Will it work against a top5 D?

Jets D is 8th in ypg, 16th in ppg. Good but not top 5 good.

zdoor
11-15-2011, 08:27 PM
The article and video are pretty cool. Like the attitude...

TheReverend
11-15-2011, 08:27 PM
Jets D is 8th in ypg, 16th in ppg. Good but not top 5 good.

Patriots x 2 probably has a LOT to do with that.

Garcia Bronco
11-15-2011, 08:40 PM
Good piece. Great info. This offense will work great as long as you don't get behind.

"If we were trying to run a regular offense, he'd be screwed." That doesn't give me the warm fuzzies.

As the old saying goes, "In for a dime, in for a dollar."

The old saying is: In for a penny, in for a pound.

Hamrob
11-15-2011, 08:42 PM
I'm a huge Tebow fan...but, I want to see him play QB in the NFL. Not RB.

This is a novelty, everyone knows that...most of all Elway. Tebow, can be a QB who runs when needed, who keeps defenses off-gaurd....but, sooner or later, he's going to get cracked. This will cause a cuncussion...and his running back days will be over.

He needs to prove he can play QB in the NFL. That means standing in the pocket, rolling out, and most of all throwing the damn football.

I love this guy, but if he can't throw the ball when the game is on the line to win games...if he can't throw the ball on 3rd down to move the chains...this will all be over and forgotten by the time we kickoff the 2012 season.

They have to open the kid up and let him throw it more...all the throws...not just alleyoops.

If we get blown out by the jets, this thing will turn ugly quick!

Tombstone RJ
11-15-2011, 08:52 PM
I'm a huge Tebow fan...but, I want to see him play QB in the NFL. Not RB.

This is a novelty, everyone knows that...most of all Elway. Tebow, can be a QB who runs when needed, who keeps defenses off-gaurd....but, sooner or later, he's going to get cracked. This will cause a cuncussion...and his running back days will be over.

He needs to prove he can play QB in the NFL. That means standing in the pocket, rolling out, and most of all throwing the damn football.

I love this guy, but if he can't throw the ball when the game is on the line to win games...if he can't throw the ball on 3rd down to move the chains...this will all be over and forgotten by the time we kickoff the 2012 season.

They have to open the kid up and let him throw it more...all the throws...not just alleyoops.

If we get blown out by the jets, this thing will turn ugly quick!

yep. This is why I'm hoping the Fox and McCoy are truly tweaking this offense in that yah, they will run the spread option but they have to pass the damn ball in order to keep defenses honest.

I love it when they line up with a single back set and Tebow is under center. They always run the ball but still, try some play action.

MacGruder
11-15-2011, 08:55 PM
I'm a huge Tebow fan...but, I want to see him play QB in the NFL. Not RB.

This is a novelty, everyone knows that...most of all Elway. Tebow, can be a QB who runs when needed, who keeps defenses off-gaurd....but, sooner or later, he's going to get cracked. This will cause a cuncussion...and his running back days will be over.



You are buying into a lot of myths.. if Tebow had no athleticism or durability then he would be screwed running too. but the reality is you aren't safe in the pocket either..

Vince Lombardi said football is primarily a running game..

Tom Brady got beat by Eli Manning because he had a great run game. Most of these pass heavy offenses are not conducive to winning championships. The league hasn't seen a player like Tebow in this modern era..

Just look how people said Orton would give the team the best chance to win and that was proven wrong.

Not to mention the fact that Tebow is a very underrated passer. Fox's philosophy of playing the game doesn't center on passing the ball. Tebow may be the ONLY guy in football that can win a championship on a Fox coached team in this era..

Rohirrim
11-15-2011, 09:36 PM
The old saying is: In for a penny, in for a pound.

That's the English version. I'm American.

TonyR
11-16-2011, 07:30 AM
Patriots x 2 probably has a LOT to do with that.

No doubt. And giving up 34 to both the Raiders and Ravens doesn't help their case, either.

BroncoInferno
11-16-2011, 07:30 AM
I think it's here to stay as a sub package with the proper personnel at the least.

Yeah, I think people are thinking of this in extremes. Of course we aren't going to be the Georgia Tech of the NFL and throw 8-10 times per game for the next decade. The idea is to let this thing ride out while Tim is developing as a passer. Down the road, if Tim entrenches himself as the starter, there is no reason we can't keep the read-option as a sub-package, similar to the wildcat (except better, because there's actually the threat of the pass).

CEH
11-16-2011, 07:45 AM
I just realized that EFX would have to become the MacGruber of the NFL. They would have to go all in and defend their position against all the other NFL personnel who just don't see it. Something McG does every day on this board. Image if Tebow succeeds running the zone read in the NFL, good for Denver not so good for this board. If Tebow fails, MacG goes away. I think the same might be able to be said for EFX. A failure of this proportion could be career suicide calling into question decision making. Very tough call going forward to make an "all in " for Tebow . The offseason is going to be very interesting. THis is why I've said Tebow needs to pass better regardless of short term results. Can't hitch your wagon to a QB who can only CIDT?

TheDave
11-16-2011, 08:02 AM
Yeah, I think people are thinking of this in extremes. Of course we aren't going to be the Georgia Tech of the NFL and throw 8-10 times per game for the next decade. The idea is to let this thing ride out while Tim is developing as a passer. Down the road, if Tim entrenches himself as the starter, there is no reason we can't keep the read-option as a sub-package, similar to the wildcat (except better, because there's actually the threat of the pass).

For me the question is how many times does he need to throw to keep the defense honest. Watching these last couple of games I'm constantly shocked by the number of extra players they assign to tebow (including DE's and OLB's just floating along the LOS reading the QB). I agree they can not survive throiwing less than 10 passes a game, but can this offenbse work long term if he goes 12/18 or something along those lines?

JMO, but watching how NFL defenses over compensate for him, I'm starting to think this offense could thrive with significantly less passes than we are used to.

Having said that I'm still not convinced he can go 12/18 consistently, but I'm a lot less pessimistic about 20 or so throws than I was imagining him trying to immitate arron rodgers all season.

Steve Sewell
11-16-2011, 08:31 AM
I agree. I wasn't sure what to think about him saying "we can't do that other crap." He was straight forward and said what he thought, i like that. For everyone looking for us to chuck the ball around the field this week, it's not happening! We're going to run the ball down there throats. I hope they have a plan on what to do if we get down by 14-17. Hopefully they throw some bootlegs and naked bootlegs in there.

I suppose I need to knock on wood, but how in the hell is Sanchez going to lead them to a 14-17 point lead in Denver on 3 days rest? I have a feeling that the Broncos are going to beat the everliving pulp out of them in the run game.

Steve Sewell
11-16-2011, 08:42 AM
For me the question is how many times does he need to throw to keep the defense honest. Watching these last couple of games I'm constantly shocked by the number of extra players they assign to tebow (including DE's and OLB's just floating along the LOS reading the QB). I agree they can not survive throiwing less than 10 passes a game, but can this offenbse work long term if he goes 12/18 or something along those lines?

JMO, but watching how NFL defenses over compensate for him, I'm starting to think this offense could thrive with significantly less passes than we are used to.

Having said that I'm still not convinced he can go 12/18 consistently, but I'm a lot less pessimistic about 20 or so throws than I was imagining him trying to immitate arron rodgers all season.

I think 12/18 150 yds with a TD and no INTs, complimented with the current running game, would be hard for any team to beat. That's assuming the Broncos defense continues to play well.

BroncoInferno
11-16-2011, 08:54 AM
For me the question is how many times does he need to throw to keep the defense honest. Watching these last couple of games I'm constantly shocked by the number of extra players they assign to tebow (including DE's and OLB's just floating along the LOS reading the QB). I agree they can not survive throiwing less than 10 passes a game, but can this offenbse work long term if he goes 12/18 or something along those lines?

JMO, but watching how NFL defenses over compensate for him, I'm starting to think this offense could thrive with significantly less passes than we are used to.

Having said that I'm still not convinced he can go 12/18 consistently, but I'm a lot less pessimistic about 20 or so throws than I was imagining him trying to immitate arron rodgers all season.

It's definitely possible. One interesting thing Fox noted was how Hali, whose strength is rushing the passer, was basically rendered a nonfactor because he had to sit back and read the option. All of these teams are built to defend the pass, and now once or twice a year the players have to forget about what they've been taught to do their entire careers to defend one team. I'm sure coaches like Ryan know how to stop this thing in their minds, but it's another thing entirely to get your players to execute with only a week or two to prepare. We know Tebow CAN throw a nice ball, as evidenced by the 53 yard TD to Decker. It's just a matter of getting it down to muscle-memory so he can be consistent with it. One thing is that if this offense CAN work long-term, teams will be forced to use less complex coverages, so that will make Tim's reads on pass plays much easier, which makes a 12-18 type of day more teneable.

bendog
11-16-2011, 12:55 PM
It's definitely possible. One interesting thing Fox noted was how Hali, whose strength is rushing the passer, was basically rendered a nonfactor because he had to sit back and read the option. All of these teams are built to defend the pass, and now once or twice a year the players have to forget about what they've been taught to do their entire careers to defend one team. I'm sure coaches like Ryan know how to stop this thing in their minds, but it's another thing entirely to get your players to execute with only a week or two to prepare. We know Tebow CAN throw a nice ball, as evidenced by the 53 yard TD to Decker. It's just a matter of getting it down to muscle-memory so he can be consistent with it. One thing is that if this offense CAN work long-term, teams will be forced to use less complex coverages, so that will make Tim's reads on pass plays much easier, which makes a 12-18 type of day more teneable.

I don't think it'd be that difficult to scheme against, but agree it might work ... depending on how good the oline, tbs and esp Tebow are. Go basic cover 1 or even cover 0 and man. If you go cover one and have a linebacker who can run, take out one safety and put the backer on the tight end but stay in cover 1. The Will and Sam have to stay in the lanes to take away Tebow's option pitch to the tb. Funnel the runs towards the Mike, and make Tebow pay physically.

The offense might still work IF Den's offensive line can move the front 5 and Mike. (or front three and two ILB) And Tebow would have to hit on more than 20% (yeah I know, drops/wind) Pitt or Balt would murder them. But if Tebow and the oline and tailbacks improve, it might work.

Bob's your Information Minister
11-16-2011, 03:33 PM
It's hilarious how some of you are celebrating this.

It doesn't lead to championships.

Pendejo
11-16-2011, 03:35 PM
It's hilarious how some of you are celebrating this.

It doesn't lead to championships.

Up yours Wendler.

Jetmeck
11-16-2011, 03:38 PM
It's hilarious how some of you are celebrating this.

It doesn't lead to championships.

Somebody smell something ? Must be that stench leftover from Arrowhead, you know that team practiced for Tebow and knew it was coming and still couldn't stop it.

enjolras
11-16-2011, 03:39 PM
It's hilarious how some of you are celebrating this.

It doesn't lead to championships.

You'd really have no idea.

Jetmeck
11-16-2011, 03:40 PM
I suppose I need to knock on wood, but how in the hell is Sanchez going to lead them to a 14-17 point lead in Denver on 3 days rest? I have a feeling that the Broncos are going to beat the everliving pulp out of them in the run game.

and DOOM and Von are gonna pummel Sanchez.....................

Bob's your Information Minister
11-16-2011, 03:40 PM
You'd really have no idea.

Dude, really? You think I have no idea how this style of football is futile? This is all the Chiefs have been for the majority of my fandom.

bendog
11-16-2011, 03:51 PM
You didn't have a qb who would run the option and take the rock 5-10 times a game. Can tebow do that? don't know. Can he pass well enough to burn cover 1's for 2-3 tds' a game against really good defenses? don't know.

Bob's your Information Minister
11-16-2011, 04:16 PM
You didn't have a qb who would run the option and take the rock 5-10 times a game.

Tyler Thigpen had 386 rushing yards in 11 starts one year, and was an average passer. He was extremely athletic, so much so that teams wanted to draft him as a WR.

The team went 2-14 and Thigpen has never started anywhere else.

bendog
11-16-2011, 04:24 PM
thigpen ... ah no.

But personally, imo unless tebow can learn the nfl passing game, I think he's toast. But with a top 5 defense and run game, I think they can win throwing 20 times a game.

Rohirrim
11-16-2011, 04:50 PM
We're going to win the SB. :puff:

tsiguy96
11-16-2011, 05:12 PM
http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_19345193?utm_medium=facebook

Smilin Assassin
11-16-2011, 05:25 PM
Tyler Thigpen had 386 rushing yards in 11 starts one year, and was an average passer. He was extremely athletic, so much so that teams wanted to draft him as a WR.

The team went 2-14 and Thigpen has never started anywhere else.

386 in 11 games?

run along...

Bronx33
11-16-2011, 06:02 PM
It's hilarious how some of you are celebrating this.

It doesn't lead to championships.


WTF would you know about championships? you're wrong about most everything football related and yet you still yammer on like you know something ( which you dont)

errand
11-16-2011, 07:02 PM
i can't believe people are happy about a quarterback that can't throw.

he can throw.... he's just not very consistent.
.. hopefully by the end of the year he will be more accurate. but as long as he keeps winning games does it really matter.

errand
11-16-2011, 07:20 PM
It's hilarious how some of you are celebrating this.

It doesn't lead to championships.

No but it does lead to 17-10 wins.....

OrangeSe7en
11-16-2011, 07:34 PM
I know a lot of people are seeing portions of this as some sort of slight. But I don't see it that way. I actually like they're finding ways to win that defy convention. I think if you try to out Manning, Manning or out Brees, Brees, you're destined to lose. We're finding alternate ways to make things work. Back in the 1990s, we had a bunch of undersized offensive linemen (at a time when bigger was better) and utilized the ZBS, which eventually revolutionized football.

I'm not saying what they're doing now is, or will be, revolutionary but it pleases me when the Broncos don't try to follow the same formula as everyone else. When you try to copy what others have done, there are already people/teams who have been there and done that and do it better. You're playing catch up. I like that they have the balls to do something different.

Broncoman13
11-16-2011, 08:27 PM
For me the question is how many times does he need to throw to keep the defense honest. Watching these last couple of games I'm constantly shocked by the number of extra players they assign to tebow (including DE's and OLB's just floating along the LOS reading the QB). I agree they can not survive throiwing less than 10 passes a game, but can this offenbse work long term if he goes 12/18 or something along those lines?

JMO, but watching how NFL defenses over compensate for him, I'm starting to think this offense could thrive with significantly less passes than we are used to.

Having said that I'm still not convinced he can go 12/18 consistently, but I'm a lot less pessimistic about 20 or so throws than I was imagining him trying to immitate arron rodgers all season.

I was wondering yesterday if we could keep riding Tebow this way. Will he hold up, will he have to throw, will the Broncos build around this, etc. After today, what I am hearing is that there is a pretty good chance that Tebow will be here for a while and this, what we have now, will be what he is until he improves passing the ball. But Alfred Williams is pretty connected to the team, yesterday he was saying No Way... Today, a complete 180 after talking with someone inside Dove Valley... So much so that he thinks Tebow is the starter next season now as well. He, btw, is far from a Tebow supporter.

Broncoman13
11-16-2011, 08:32 PM
I know a lot of people are seeing portions of this as some sort of slight. But I don't see it that way. I actually like they're finding ways to win that defy convention. I think if you try to out Manning, Manning or out Brees, Brees, you're destined to lose. We're finding alternate ways to make things work. Back in the 1990s, we had a bunch of undersized offensive linemen (at a time when bigger was better) and utilized the ZBS, which eventually revolutionized football.

I'm not saying what they're doing now is, or will be, revolutionary but it pleases me when the Broncos don't try to follow the same formula as everyone else. When you try to copy what others have done, there are already people/teams who have been there and done that and do it better. You're playing catch up. I like that they have the balls to do something different.

Very ballsy of our staff to step out of the norm. John Fox has to see boom or bust here. Transform the game to take advantage of the NFLs most beloved/behated player in a unique way and he is a coaching legend, one that many others will try to emulate. Fail, and unless the Broncos are willing to let him stay with a new QB, his HCing career may be over.

Bob's your Information Minister
11-16-2011, 09:17 PM
http://i40.tinypic.com/219axc5.jpg

TDmvp
11-16-2011, 09:19 PM
http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/8164/2eg5euq.jpg


Fixed ;D

24champ
11-16-2011, 09:23 PM
Very ballsy of our staff to step out of the norm. John Fox has to see boom or bust here. Transform the game to take advantage of the NFLs most beloved/behated player in a unique way and he is a coaching legend, one that many others will try to emulate. Fail, and unless the Broncos are willing to let him stay with a new QB, his HCing career may be over.

We can't judge Fox solely on his work with the offense. I am one of the biggest critics of Fox on here, but the numbers say that the Defense and Special Teams have improved a bunch. The offense is largely McCoy's responsibility, so if it falters then he is going to be the one shown the door.

MacGruder
11-16-2011, 09:28 PM
We can't judge Fox solely on his work with the offense. I am one of the biggest critics of Fox on here, but the numbers say that the Defense and Special Teams have improved a bunch. The offense is largely McCoy's responsibility, so if it falters then he is going to be the one shown the door.

It seems pretty clear that Fox has limited the offense to help his defense. If that's the case then the defense better perform The offense is at a real disadvantage when it is so limited and predictable.

Fox is also relying on the run game.. which without Tebow running is not worthy of building an offense around.

Bottom line is that Fox is not very smart. He isn't working to the strengths of the team or the style of play that wins in this era - potent offense.

epicSocialism4tw
11-16-2011, 09:38 PM
I was wondering yesterday if we could keep riding Tebow this way. Will he hold up, will he have to throw, will the Broncos build around this, etc. After today, what I am hearing is that there is a pretty good chance that Tebow will be here for a while and this, what we have now, will be what he is until he improves passing the ball. But Alfred Williams is pretty connected to the team, yesterday he was saying No Way... Today, a complete 180 after talking with someone inside Dove Valley... So much so that he thinks Tebow is the starter next season now as well. He, btw, is far from a Tebow supporter.

I surmise that the initial feel of the Tebow craze scared the heck out of the front office because it was bigger than they were. But after seeing the team (mainly the OL and the defense) rally around the new strategy and commit to playing tough football, I think that they warmed up to the idea of rolling with Tebow. Not just for this season, but for the forseeable future. The fans love him and the players seem to respect him even as a young player.

An aspect of this that hasn't been discussed is that when the Broncos benched Orton, and traded Lloyd, they sent a message loud and clear to the team. Fox sent the message that the culture of losing that had been cultivated in Denver was no longer acceptable. Veterans would be benched. This was no longer a place where players could accumulate statistics when the game was over and the team was losing and then come back and expect to start. Fox nixed that really quick. It only took 5 games, which is relatively short of a period.

That's where Fox impressed me the most. He's a players coach, but he's not going to let you skate your way to a contract at the detriment to the team and the fans.

If you look at how Tebow has been successful in wins, its because he is playing smart football. He's not turning the ball over and he's moving the chains. That sounds like exactly what the coach asks you to do. Tebow is willing to put the Cutler-type gunslinging aside to do what the coach asks. Orton wasn't playing smart or disciplined.

Fox's move to Tebow turned the season on its head. Not only because Tebow is a more disciplined and smarter player than Kyle, but because Fox made it clear that the coaching staff didn't care how much you made or how much you felt entitled to play.

I think that the main thing that Fox has established here is a sense of accountability. The players that do their jobs get the minutes.

24champ
11-16-2011, 09:40 PM
It seems pretty clear that Fox has limited the offense to help his defense.

Fox isn't limiting the offense, he basically scrapped the offense we had under Orton. Now we're on to doing an option offense, this would help Tebow maximize his abilities. Which is his legs, not his arm.


Fox is also relying on the run game.. which without Tebow running is not worthy of building an offense around.

We're relying on the run game because that's what Tebow does best, that's the strength of this team at this point.


Bottom line is that Fox is not very smart. He isn't working to the strengths of the team or the style of play that wins in this era - potent offense.

Fox will continue to look smart as along as the Broncos continue to win, that's all that matters at this point.

epicSocialism4tw
11-16-2011, 09:46 PM
We can't judge Fox solely on his work with the offense. I am one of the biggest critics of Fox on here, but the numbers say that the Defense and Special Teams have improved a bunch. The offense is largely McCoy's responsibility, so if it falters then he is going to be the one shown the door.

I think that McCoy is doing a good job.

When you figure that he's basically installing an offense by trial and error over the course of the season, and that the offense he is installing is something that isn't traditionally used in the NFL, it looks like he's doing a pretty nice job.

His offense is leading the league in rushing over the past 4 weeks by a significant margin, and the team is 3-1 over that period. They are running a varied and sophisticated rushing attack utilizing several different schemes, using an offensive line featuring two second-year players and a rookie...all of whom didn't have an offseason to prepare.

If the team continues on this trajectory, McCoy will be one of the top assistants in the league and Fox will probably be voted coach of the year.

Br0nc0Buster
11-16-2011, 09:48 PM
http://i40.tinypic.com/219axc5.jpg

your team lost to that

:spit:

24champ
11-16-2011, 09:57 PM
I think that McCoy is doing a good job.

When you figure that he's basically installing an offense by trial and error over the course of the season, and that the offense he is installing is something that isn't traditionally used in the NFL, it looks like he's doing a pretty nice job.

His offense is leading the league in rushing over the past 4 weeks by a significant margin, and the team is 3-1 over that period. They are running a varied and sophisticated rushing attack utilizing several different schemes, using an offensive line featuring two second-year players and a rookie...all of whom didn't have an offseason to prepare.

If the team continues on this trajectory, McCoy will be one of the top assistants in the league and Fox will probably be voted coach of the year.

Way too early to start giving accolades, we played two crappy divisional opponents. Tomorrow we play a really solid and good defense. We'll see how realistic it is to run this offense in the NFL.

epicSocialism4tw
11-16-2011, 10:07 PM
Way too early to start giving accolades, we played two crappy divisional opponents. Tomorrow we play a really solid and good defense. We'll see how realistic it is to run this offense in the NFL.

We won't be able to determine that tomorrow. We'll be able to see how it worked against the Jets on a short week in Denver.

We won't really be able to judge this offense until the end of the season and we have an entire body of work to look at. That's why I said "if it continues on this trajectory". What I meant by that, is that it would need to consistently rush for big numbers, control the clock, and score in the red zone.

If the Broncos finish above .500 for the remainder of the season, they'll likely win the division and make the playoffs. After receiving the second-worst team in the NFL, the abysmal start to the season, installing a new offense on the fly, and making the playoffs, it would be a travesty to give the COY award to anyone but Fox.

Gort
11-16-2011, 10:39 PM
I surmise that the initial feel of the Tebow craze scared the heck out of the front office because it was bigger than they were. But after seeing the team (mainly the OL and the defense) rally around the new strategy and commit to playing tough football, I think that they warmed up to the idea of rolling with Tebow. Not just for this season, but for the forseeable future. The fans love him and the players seem to respect him even as a young player.

An aspect of this that hasn't been discussed is that when the Broncos benched Orton, and traded Lloyd, they sent a message loud and clear to the team. Fox sent the message that the culture of losing that had been cultivated in Denver was no longer acceptable. Veterans would be benched. This was no longer a place where players could accumulate statistics when the game was over and the team was losing and then come back and expect to start. Fox nixed that really quick. It only took 5 games, which is relatively short of a period.

That's where Fox impressed me the most. He's a players coach, but he's not going to let you skate your way to a contract at the detriment to the team and the fans.

If you look at how Tebow has been successful in wins, its because he is playing smart football. He's not turning the ball over and he's moving the chains. That sounds like exactly what the coach asks you to do. Tebow is willing to put the Cutler-type gunslinging aside to do what the coach asks. Orton wasn't playing smart or disciplined.

Fox's move to Tebow turned the season on its head. Not only because Tebow is a more disciplined and smarter player than Kyle, but because Fox made it clear that the coaching staff didn't care how much you made or how much you felt entitled to play.

I think that the main thing that Fox has established here is a sense of accountability. The players that do their jobs get the minutes.

if Tebow and the Broncos beat the Jets, heads all over Bristol, CT will explode. :)

:espnsux:

epicSocialism4tw
11-16-2011, 10:44 PM
if Tebow and the Broncos beat the Jets, heads all over Bristol, CT will explode. :)

:espnsux:

...and that's what makes rooting for the Broncos with Tebow so much fun. ;D

HAT
11-16-2011, 11:14 PM
I never thought I'd see the day when drama became the new tsiguy....Epic for sure.

SoCalBronco
11-16-2011, 11:20 PM
The eyeshadow weakens your argument, Bob.

epicSocialism4tw
11-17-2011, 12:53 AM
I never thought I'd see the day when drama became the new tsiguy....Epic for sure.

I don't really know what that means, but okay.

fontaine
11-17-2011, 03:06 AM
Why does it have to be one way or the other?

The coaches aren't married to this offense and will only run a limited passing game from now on. What Fox/McCoy have done is changed the biggest weakeness on this offense in the QB position into a strength.

Instead of Tebow being the most inexperienced and flawed player in the Orton style offense he's now the most experienced and comfortable player in the zone/spread offense and that's turning a weakeness into a strength at a pivotal position. Great coaching all around.

But that doesn't mean this is the way it's always going to be with Tebow. Over the last two weeks Tebow has completely changed the quickness of his passing game. Where against Miami he was hanging onto the ball too long, was slow in his progressions, slow to release the ball, he's now in a system where he's more comfortable and the ball is coming out much quicker over the last two weeks.

I counted just twice that Tebow took more than 3 seconds to release the ball in the past two games and one of those plays was a designated rollout pass to Royal for a TD where Tebow did the right thing to hang onto the ball a bit longer for the longer play to develop.

If Tebow can make those kinds of strides in a few weeks then it's perfectly logical to say that he will get better as a pocket passer given more experience and better play from WRs/TEs.

That's why I have hope for this team and feel great about the direction they're heading into. Not just winning now, but seeing actual improvement from the QB/OL/RB positions which translates to consistent wins rather than just a gimmick offense.

jhns
11-17-2011, 07:52 AM
Fox explains some comments: http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d8243353f/article/fox-comment-about-offense-not-meant-to-be-offensive-to-tebow?module=HP11_headline_stack