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View Full Version : How many rushes are too many rushes ?


Quoydogs
11-13-2011, 03:08 PM
How many rushes today ?? My god man. Good to see the win but we can't do that every week or can we ?

Popps
11-13-2011, 03:11 PM
For the 100th time, why would we do something "every week?"

Of course we'll game-plan different for the Jets. We passed more against the Raiders.

Where do people get this idea that if we run a game plan one week... it MUST be in CONCRETE that we never change it?

TheDave
11-13-2011, 03:12 PM
How many rushes today ?? My god man. Good to see the win but we can't do that every week or can we ?

I'm starting to wonder if this going against the grain theory (Running team v. passing league) has some merit. Assuming we can pick up the passing game back to the 50% range... 20 passes a game might be all it takes.

theAPAOps5
11-13-2011, 03:12 PM
There isn't when you keep winning.

theAPAOps5
11-13-2011, 03:14 PM
It was frustrating on some of those 3rd and 7 runs but they won. Can't complain with the result

SonOfLe-loLang
11-13-2011, 03:16 PM
For the 100th time, why would we do something "every week?"

Of course we'll game-plan different for the Jets. We passed more against the Raiders.

Where do people get this idea that if we run a game plan one week... it MUST be in CONCRETE that we never change it?

Only because I am not confident McCoy will ever open it up and its this sorta thing that validates his conservative nature. Its one thing if this offense put up 30 points this week, but it didnt. Running options on 3rd and 8 is inexcusable, im sorry.

Im very happy for the win, but to develop the offense, we need to actually pass out of this to keep the running game effective.

epicSocialism4tw
11-13-2011, 03:18 PM
I'm starting to wonder if this going against the grain theory (Running team v. passing league) has some merit. Assuming we can pick up the passing game back to the 50% range... 20 passes a game might be all it takes.

There are alot of defenses designed to stop the pass (the Jets are a prime example).

Denver ands its +1 rushing attack might be a great foil for the modern NFL pass-heavy personnel.

myMind
11-13-2011, 03:20 PM
However many you have if you lose.

TDmvp
11-13-2011, 03:23 PM
The Jets aint that great against the run , 21st ... So maybe we smash them in the mouth.

TheDave
11-13-2011, 03:23 PM
There are alot of defenses designed to stop the pass (the Jets are a prime example).

Denver ands its +1 rushing attack might be a great foil for the modern NFL pass-heavy personnel.

So far it is exactly what is happening... Now he will have to force a man out of the box with his arm to keep the advantage. But I'm starting to think 10 for 20 might be enough to keep teams honest.

Popps
11-13-2011, 03:24 PM
Only because I am not confident McCoy will ever open it up and its this sorta thing that validates his conservative nature. Its one thing if this offense put up 30 points this week, but it didnt. Running options on 3rd and 8 is inexcusable, im sorry.

Im very happy for the win, but to develop the offense, we need to actually pass out of this to keep the running game effective.

Wait, what? Were you around last year? When did he become "conservative?"

You realize we have a QB who has a difficult time completing passes at his point, right? He threw a few nice long balls today, but showed you on his short timing routes that he's just not accurate all the time... particularly on quick reads.

This isn't a reflection of the coordinator, this is a reflection of the QB. Go back and look at the game-plan with Orton behind center. MUCH more pass-heavy.

Again, this week is not eternity. Things will change as (hopefully) Tebow grows into the QB position.

gyldenlove
11-13-2011, 03:24 PM
You do what you have to do to win, today it was treating the Chiefs defense like Linda Lovelace.

Garcia Bronco
11-13-2011, 03:26 PM
There are alot of defenses designed to stop the pass (the Jets are a prime example).

Denver ands its +1 rushing attack might be a great foil for the modern NFL pass-heavy personnel.

Exactly. As the NFL has become a passing league, the defense have given up size and strength for speed.

Quoydogs
11-13-2011, 03:28 PM
Only because I am not confident McCoy will ever open it up and its this sorta thing that validates his conservative nature. Its one thing if this offense put up 30 points this week, but it didnt. Running options on 3rd and 8 is inexcusable, im sorry.

Im very happy for the win, but to develop the offense, we need to actually pass out of this to keep the running game effective.

This !

SonOfLe-loLang
11-13-2011, 03:29 PM
Wait, what? Were you around last year? When did he become "conservative?"

You realize we have a QB who has a difficult time completing passes at his point, right? He threw a few nice long balls today, but showed you on his short timing routes that he's just not accurate all the time... particularly on quick reads.

This isn't a reflection of the coordinator, this is a reflection of the QB. Go back and look at the game-plan with Orton behind center. MUCH more pass-heavy.

Again, this week is not eternity. Things will change as (hopefully) Tebow grows into the QB position.

It validates his conservative nature with Tim. It's a reflection on both of them. He had ONE timing route today that he missed. He's not the most accurate guy in the world, but also, to me, he seems like a rhythm QB and leaving him with 3rd and 5's isnt a recipe for success. And 3rd and 7 options? Come the **** on, how is this defensible?

Tebow may be limited, but that's why you need to create situations for easier passes...such as, i dunno, how about PA on first down FOR ONCE? How about a bootleg? Tim is definitely capable of mixing up passes for a more efficient offense..we've all seen it! I'm asking for a bit more creativity is all. When he gets in the rhythm, he can spin it. But this kind of offense? We can do better.

Old Dude
11-13-2011, 03:35 PM
Top two RBs out with injuries and they still play smashball all day long. And somehow it worked.

Broncos4Life
11-13-2011, 03:36 PM
QFT!

Armchair Bronco
11-13-2011, 03:36 PM
Teams that run, win.

And if your QB can run, so much the better.

KevinJames
11-13-2011, 03:37 PM
I think the play calling was based more off of John Fox knowing that the chief's offense can't move the ball on us consistently and not because they don't want Tebow to throw.

The game plan was ram it down their throat even when they know its coming and it worked. We smashed this team and I was happy w/ the win.

Sassy
11-13-2011, 03:37 PM
Teams that run, win.

And if your QB can run, so much the better.

He has to run...he can't pass worth a crap right now anyway.

theAPAOps5
11-13-2011, 03:39 PM
He has to run...he can't pass worth a crap right now anyway.

His deep ball is good. The rest need work, but not throwing at all won't Help get better.

Sassy
11-13-2011, 03:46 PM
His deep ball is good. The rest need work, but not throwing at all won't Help get better.

I agree...I was just going to post that...if the Broncos are running the entire game how does his passing improve. Great point!

Armchair Bronco
11-13-2011, 03:48 PM
Denver had 16 first downs today. 13 from rushing, 2 from passing, 1 from a penalty.

First downs from rushing are the single most important stat in football, and we've dominated the NFL in that category the last 2 weeks.

epicSocialism4tw
11-13-2011, 03:56 PM
Denver had 16 first downs today. 13 from rushing, 2 from passing, 1 from a penalty.

First downs from rushing are the single most important stat in football, and we've dominated the NFL in that category the last 2 weeks.

Nice.

This kind of football will continue to win.

And I guarantee that it gets mimicked by another team. Possibly even Fox's former team, who are 2-7.

fontaine
11-13-2011, 04:02 PM
I agree...I was just going to post that...if the Broncos are running the entire game how does his passing improve. Great point!

Because this isn't the Denver "Tebow improvement project."

The team and winning comes first.

GreatBronco16
11-13-2011, 05:15 PM
I just don't see Tebow as being the passer for this season. Unless Denver falls way behind in a game, I'd be willing to expect more of the same. Maybe not the exact same kind of runs, but runs nontheless. If Tebow and the Broncos win enough games, Tebow will be the starter going into next season. For once in two years, he will get the bulk of the practice with the first teamers, and he will have all of his coaches there to help him in the offseason with his footwork and throwing.

Next year will be the year we see if Tebow can add the passing game to the offense.

SonOfLe-loLang
11-13-2011, 05:34 PM
I just don't see Tebow as being the passer for this season. Unless Denver falls way behind in a game, I'd be willing to expect more of the same. Maybe not the exact same kind of runs, but runs nontheless. If Tebow and the Broncos win enough games, Tebow will be the starter going into next season. For once in two years, he will get the bulk of the practice with the first teamers, and he will have all of his coaches there to help him in the offseason with his footwork and throwing.

Next year will be the year we see if Tebow can add the passing game to the offense.

We've been behind and he's passed out of it?

OrangeSe7en
11-13-2011, 05:43 PM
Tebow's QB rating has been over 90 in 3 of the 4 games he's started. And this obviously doesnt even address what he brings as a runner.

Dutch
11-13-2011, 06:00 PM
The point being, as I see it. He will be a much stronger player in the passing game next season with an entire offseason's work behind him, added to the experience he is getting real-time this year.

I also would not be surprised to see him show marked improvement in the passing game by the end of this season.

peacepipe
11-13-2011, 06:07 PM
We've been behind and he's passed out of it?

if we're not behind by much,time allows & we're playing a bad team. good/great teams will always put it out of reach.

Jetmeck
11-13-2011, 06:39 PM
if we're not behind by much,time allows & we're playing a bad team. good/great teams will always put it out of reach.

YOU can only hope ? Sucks being you when Tebow succeeds just ruins your whole week ?

peacepipe
11-13-2011, 06:40 PM
YOU can only hope ? Sucks being you when Tebow succeeds just ruins your whole week ?

did you see the game against detroit? like I said, good/great teams will always put it out of reach.

barryr
11-13-2011, 07:01 PM
So some think they ran too much even though it was working very well? So they should have started passing more even though the running game was working? I see. Maybe they will pass more in games where the running game isn't working so well. That is called, NO DUH!

Mile High Mojoe
11-13-2011, 07:04 PM
How many rushes today ?? My god man. Good to see the win but we can't do that every week or can we ?

We won today didn't we? Why ask? Against the Jets it's a given the ball will have to go in the air.

The Moops
11-13-2011, 08:38 PM
Coaches went into game believing Chiefs offense stinks and denver didn't need to score a lot to win. Of course, they went Way overboard with conservative play calling. But we won. Bottom line.
Lions got pounded by Bears and Matthew Stafford threw 63 times. i guess that was too many, right?

Pick Six
11-13-2011, 11:49 PM
If something is working, you do it until they stop you...

SoCalBronco
11-14-2011, 12:11 AM
I think they ran a bit too much, but I don't mind the idea of a 60/40 split or 65/35 until he gets up to speed. But anything around (or over) 80% run is a bit too much. People can and will scheme that away. Maybe not a dumbass like Haley, but Rex could.

What was more instructive I thought, was that McCoy did have some of the adjustments I was hoping for. We all knew KC would practice the ZR to death and I'm glad they expanded it further to counter the expected adjustments. In the podcast, I questioned whether they could squeeze in the proper practice time for the pitch relationship for the option stuff since that is hard to master and takes alot of time, but they did it and for the most part did it relatively well for the first time out. McCoy created a nice 3 on 2 situation with the triple option (I prefer it out of the gun but they did it both ways) on the DE (DE contain-handoff, DE crash, move on to next widest defender with option).

Gun Triple Option:
http://www.xsosfootball.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/zone-read-triple-option-115x115.jpg


From there, they added the Shovel option. Make no mistake, the shovel pass to Royal wasn't just a regular shovel pass, it was an option. It's another 3 on 2 type of situation. The playside back and QB are trying to work the OLB, with the backside back or the reciever in motion (Royal) as the shovel behind it. If the end crashes to take out the backside shovel, you work the OLB with the QB and playside back. If the end plays contain you flip it back to the shovel. Too bad Royal dropped it. The Shovel Option is very effective to the side where there is a 1 tech DT, since you are using his leverage against him and the tackle can ignore the end and get to the second level quickly to eliminate the MLB. It doesn't work well to the side of the 3 tech DT, since he's aligned between the guard and tackle and can blow up the play. A great illustration of how effective this can be is the Fiesta Bowl from I think 2004 or 2005 between Utah and Pittsburgh (Alex Smith era).

Shovel Option (aka Crazy Option):
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_1PiTuBhELbU/SWdHSuh1SVI/AAAAAAAAAWo/eRiinCqjpA4/s320/CRAZY.gif

The next step after the zone read, zone read option (triple), shovel option etc., is the playaction game off of these option actions. You want to get the LB's reading the backfield flow as being one of these option plays and then throw the PA behind them. Tim isn't great at the normal PA, but if we can get the PA going off the option sequence, that would be great. Georgia Tech does this well (albeit under center).

It was interesting to see the first completion be on a bubble screen to Willis. This is the next aspect to this offense. You need to have the constant threat of the bubble screen to a slot reciever to make sure the OLBs get out of the box and cover down on the slot recievers. Out of 4 wide, even when the defense adjusts to the option game, you can still play this "numbers" game. There are only a finite number of ways to align against a 2 by 2 4 wide reciever 1 back formation:
1. 7 in box, safeties over slot recievers= Blitz and the defense has taken away the option game because although it allows you to block 1 extra defender than you have blockers, here you have 2 extra defenders. Against scenario 1, you can check to a screen pass, or a quick 1 step drop pass to get the ball out quickly, or even a speed option.

2. 6 in box, LB and S cover down on each slot reciever= This means there must be only 1 high safety and generally there are only two coverages that can be played from this look (Cov 1 and also Cov 3). It will make it easier for Tebow to know where he is going with the ball since he knows there is a high probability of either just Cover 1 or Cover 3. There are some common 2 man patterns that are designed to work well on both these coverages (for instance, slant-flat or comeback-hook). Additionally, with 6 in the box, he can still play the option game because we can still run against 6 with 5 blockers due to leaving one man unblocked for the option.

3. 5 in the box, 2 safeties high, both slot recievers covered by OLBs- This strongly suggests it is Cover 2 Zone, Cover 2 Man, Quarters, Quarter-Quarter-Half or Man to Man with 2 recievers bracketted (doubled). There are only 5 in the box, so the option is not even required, a simple inside zone or trap or draw is sufficient.

4. 2 safeties high, at least one OLB's either staying in the box or "splitting the difference" (6 or 7 man box, depending on whether one or both OLBs stay in or split the difference, I'm classifying a LB that splits the difference as still being in the box)- Here is where the bubble screen is useful. Against an OLB who splits the difference or remains in the box, with 2 safeties high= a slot reciever is completely uncovered. You can either throw a bubble screen, or a quick 1 step hitch route.

90% of the defensive alignments against this formation will fit into one of these 4 categories, so Tebow will be able to recognize what to do instantly. This is another wrinkle I expect to see since he has now demonstrated (at least once), he can throw the bubble screen in uncovered situations.

Momentum
11-14-2011, 07:49 AM
How many rushes today ?? My god man. Good to see the win but we can't do that every week or can we ?

100.

1oo is too many.

Shotgun Willie
11-14-2011, 08:06 AM
One thing that's working in our favor is that the Jets just played possibly the pass happiest team in the league last night and now they have an extremely short turnaround time (coming off a night game AND having to travel to Denver) to game plan for the run happiest team in the league.

jhns
11-14-2011, 08:14 AM
The point being, as I see it. He will be a much stronger player in the passing game next season with an entire offseason's work behind him, added to the experience he is getting real-time this year.

I also would not be surprised to see him show marked improvement in the passing game by the end of this season.

If he continues to beat the bad teams, I would love to see this front office commit to him for next season. He is winning with very little passing now. His problems in the passsing game are all things that can be coached. He could be a very dangerous player if a coaching staff commits to developing his passing. He has already shown that he has the qualities, like handling pressure situations, that can't be coached.

DrFate
11-14-2011, 08:15 AM
I don't understand threads like this. If the Broncos ran the ball 8 times yesterday (and won) would there still be this uproar? A balanced offense is something to strive for - but teams have won at this sport for a hundred years running the ball and playing defense. Is this the outcome of a generation of fans playing Techmo Bowl and Madden?

Where is the outcry for teams like the Pats/Saints/Packers who are pass heavy? 'Oh Noes, we had to pass too much!!'

Do what wins.

jhns
11-14-2011, 08:24 AM
I don't understand threads like this. If the Broncos ran the ball 8 times yesterday (and won) would there still be this uproar? A balanced offense is something to strive for - but teams have won at this sport for a hundred years running the ball and playing defense. Is this the outcome of a generation of fans playing Techmo Bowl and Madden?

Where is the outcry for teams like the Pats/Saints/Packers who are pass heavy? 'Oh Noes, we had to pass too much!!'

Do what wins.

It is the theory that the run is obsolete now that the rules have changed to favor the passing game. We probably can't hang with top offenses by only running. That said, this was one week against the chiefs. Tebow attempted like 40 passes against the Lions. I hope the game plan changes from week to week and they do what works.

DrFate
11-14-2011, 08:28 AM
It is the theory that the run is obsolete now that the rules have changed to favor the passing game.

wins > theory

bendog
11-14-2011, 09:13 AM
I don't understand threads like this. If the Broncos ran the ball 8 times yesterday (and won) would there still be this uproar? A balanced offense is something to strive for - but teams have won at this sport for a hundred years running the ball and playing defense. Is this the outcome of a generation of fans playing Techmo Bowl and Madden?

Where is the outcry for teams like the Pats/Saints/Packers who are pass heavy? 'Oh Noes, we had to pass too much!!'

Do what wins.

It is necessary to criticize EFX for not properly utilizing Jesus' qb, and in reality not believing in him.

Tebow has shown that he is not able to back safeties out of the box by completing 3 step drops against one on one coverage. He may be able to someday but not today. So, McCoy first went to the read option, which forces one defender out of pursuit to accout for Tebow possibly running outside. The he put in essentially a strightforward triple option. The effect of all that is what Walsh first did in SF and Shanahan did with SOB in that it stretches the defense horizontally. The safeties are still cheating up, but the result is that deep passes are open. Tebow hit Decker in the first qtr deep, and the refs blew a PI call. The deep throw is Tebow's best throw ... at this time.

The jests will be an interesting test given their corners.

The Moops
11-14-2011, 09:21 AM
The shovel pass is a gadget play that should be used maybe 2-3 times a season. But Denver is using it at least once a game, sometimes more.

Dan Reeves used the shovel pass a lot, taken from his days as the Cowboys offensive coordinator when Staubach played.

I'll never forget he called that stupid play twice in a row in Super Bowl XXIV against the 49ers, who darn near intercepted it if Elway doesn't spike it to the ground.

That play just doesn't work if you rely on it as part of your everyday game plan.

bendog
11-14-2011, 09:31 AM
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/peter_king/11/14/Week10/index.html?sct=nfl_t11_a0

Peter King but some nice Fox quotes. I think the differece between R66v6s' shovel pass and what McCoy is doing is that with R66v6s it was an attempt to get the dline to respect the run possibility, even when Den in reality had a pretty bad running game. Give em a pass look and flip the ball to Winder for 3 yds, when just a straight handoff was likely to get even less. McCoy seems to use it to show defenses that Den will run the option, straight handoff to the tailback, straight run with Tebow, shovel pass and perhaps someday even throw a pass from shotgun.

boppool
11-14-2011, 09:42 AM
treating the Chiefs defense like Linda Lovelace.

Hope she especially enjoyed our "triple option".