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View Full Version : Elway v. Tebow Through 6 Starts


epicSocialism4tw
11-12-2011, 12:12 PM
Interesting stuff.

http://www.milehighreport.com/2011/11/12/2556924/elway-vs-tebow-by-the-numbers-1st-6-nfl-starts

UltimateHoboW/Shotgun
11-12-2011, 12:20 PM
Sorry man. Different eras. No five yards chuck rules and PI were different back then too.

Que
11-12-2011, 12:26 PM
Given that comment the same result should hold true when comparing Tebow's starts to Marino or Kelly. Right. Might have to take a gander at those later today.

Jetmeck
11-12-2011, 12:29 PM
Sorry man. Different eras. No five yards chuck rules and PI were different back then too.

WTF are you saying.....too large a gap in some of those stats for your five yard chuck to hold any water....................

yerner
11-12-2011, 12:31 PM
Except Tebow throws like a girl.

lonestar
11-12-2011, 12:39 PM
outstanding find and post by him..

kind of the bottom line on it


QB TOTAL PLAYs 0 OR NEG 1-4 5-9 10+ RUNS RUN YDS RUN AVG PASSES PASS YDS PASS AVG
TEBOW 392 152 88 65 87 204 1060 5.2 168(20sacks) 1108 6.6
ELWAY 243 105 64 24 38 112 344 3.1 114(17sacks) 610 5.4


worth the read

As I remembered John was no God in his rookie year and by the looks of it not nearly as productive SO far as Tebow is..

lonestar
11-12-2011, 12:44 PM
Except Tebow throws like a girl.

WHo is making $40+ million while doing it ..
are you jealous.. or a jaysus lover..

gobroncos313
11-12-2011, 02:07 PM
Sorry man. Different eras. No five yards chuck rules and PI were different back then too.

Well I think that would be counterbalanced by the situation. Tebow has went through a major coaching change, lockout, played his first 3 games under an interim head coach. Had the teams #1 Wr traded and even with all this he has still held his own. I agree that Tebow looked better passing last year in those last 3 games than he has this year. I think he has a lot of pressure on him to not screw up and he is being way too careful with the ball. He needs to just play.

smoke4815162342
11-12-2011, 02:18 PM
Seriously, just stop.

Inkana7
11-12-2011, 02:25 PM
I thought we agreed to stop doing this.

CEH
11-12-2011, 02:31 PM
Actions speak louder than words (or game stats)

We have already heard Elway speak on this topic about 3 weeks ago (blah blah if they based my performance on my rookie year blah blah blah) yet 3 games in they (Elway) were ready to pull the plug on Tim at least for this year and maybe forever

I'm getting mixed messages from EFX. At least they are doing everything they know how to try and achive success for Tim as well as success for the team

lonestar
11-12-2011, 02:32 PM
Well I think that would be counterbalanced by the situation. Tebow has went through a major coaching change, lockout, played his first 3 games under an interim head coach. Had the teams #1 Wr traded and even with all this he has still held his own. I agree that Tebow looked better passing last year in those last 3 games than he has this year. I think he has a lot of pressure on him to not screw up and he is being way too careful with the ball. He needs to just play.

Well there you go thinking again..

and will get crucified because your logical..

then again how dare you/anyone compare the great HOF QB with anyone..

that is blasphemous..

errand
11-12-2011, 02:34 PM
Tebow also has the benefit of defenders scared to bust him in the chops for fear of getting fined and a 15 yarder...

Instead of comparing them after 6 starts, let's wait until say 6 years..

If Tebow helps us make playoffs in rookie year like John did...oh wait...

Well, if Tebow leads us to a 13-3 record his second season...oh wait...

When Tebow leads us to an 11-5 record in his 3rd season and SB in his 4th and 5th, then maybe you clowns might have something nto run with....until then let's wait until he actually hits on 50% of his passes, wins more than a couple of games...and leads this team to the playoffs before you start the "Elway" comparisons...

****ing hero worshipers....

Broncos4tw
11-12-2011, 02:38 PM
The issue is this: in 3 years, if Tebow continues to start, and continues to play as he does... will he have both of his kneecaps? Or will he already be heading for an early retirement? There is NO way in hell he can rush as much as he does, and stay healthy. He is going to get hurt. He needs to be able to sit in the pocket and THROW THE BALL. For an entire game if necessary.

That's what I want to see. Once he does that, I'll be a believer.

lonestar
11-12-2011, 02:40 PM
Tebow also has the benefit of defenders scared to bust him in the chops for fear of getting fined and a 15 yarder...

Instead of comparing them after 6 starts, let's wait until say 6 years..

If Tebow helps us make playoffs in rookie year like John did...oh wait...

Well, if Tebow leads us to a 13-3 record his second season...oh wait...

When Tebow leads us to an 11-5 record in his 3rd season and SB in his 4th and 5th, then maybe you clowns might have something nto run with....until then let's wait until he actually hits on 50% of his passes, wins more than a couple of games...and leads this team to the playoffs before you start the "Elway" comparisons...

****ing hero worshipers....

speaking of which sounds like your hero was John


IIRC John boy did little over 50% of his passes his first year..

as for the first comment defenders afraid to hit him.. Get a ****ing life back when John came into the league IIRC the BIG guys on the DL was 270 pounds and LBs were a shade over 220..

times have changed a bit.. bigger faster and better coached players today than back then..

and plenty of D players getting fined for taking sheep shots at the QB.

MacGruder
11-12-2011, 02:41 PM
Tebow also has the benefit of defenders scared to bust him in the chops for fear of getting fined and a 15 yarder...


Athletes are also way bigger, faster and stronger than they were then. They have to protect QBs now because of they didn't they'd never make it through a game. Same with the rules protecting receivers. Receivers would never get open allowing these bigger badder defenders more shots on QBs even with the protection they would be dead..

If you took away those protective rules from QBs now Tebow would be even more valuable.. he would be a necessity because no finesse QBs could survive.

The flip side of that though is that if Elway came up in this era he might have gone the route of Tebow -- developed more as an athlete than passer and relied on his athleticism more like Tebow has..

Jetmeck
11-12-2011, 02:42 PM
Tebow also has the benefit of defenders scared to bust him in the chops for fear of getting fined and a 15 yarder...

Instead of comparing them after 6 starts, let's wait until say 6 years..

If Tebow helps us make playoffs in rookie year like John did...oh wait...

Well, if Tebow leads us to a 13-3 record his second season...oh wait...

When Tebow leads us to an 11-5 record in his 3rd season and SB in his 4th and 5th, then maybe you clowns might have something nto run with....until then let's wait until he actually hits on 50% of his passes, wins more than a couple of games...and leads this team to the playoffs before you start the "Elway" comparisons...

****ing hero worshipers....

My ass.....are you stupid or what ?

People like you are why threads like this get posted in the first place.

Exactly what those of us pulling for TT are trying to say is give him a decent amount of time and help.

Is it really that hard to follow along. ???

Nobody is saying he will turn out like Elway but he sure

AS HELL HAS DONE ENOUGH TO DESERVE A DECENT CHANCE TO

SUCCEED AND I WOULDN'T BLAME THE GUY GIVING YOU AND THOSE

LIKE YOU THE PLUMMER SIDELINE SALUTE.

YOUR HATRED IS WAY OFF BASE AND TOTALLY UNCALLED FOR.

lonestar
11-12-2011, 02:44 PM
The issue is this: in 3 years, if Tebow continues to start, and continues to play as he does... will he have both of his kneecaps? Or will he already be heading for an early retirement? There is NO way in hell he can rush as much as he does, and stay healthy. He is going to get hurt. He needs to be able to sit in the pocket and THROW THE BALL. For an entire game if necessary.

That's what I want to see. Once he does that, I'll be a believer.

as for that his comments are he is getting hammered in the pocket and feels safer outside the pocket..

IIRC in excess of 13 sacks the two prior games one in that last game..

If he wants to have a shorter career who are YOU to tell him NO..

Outside the pocket he can evade the hits alot better.. inside the pocket he is a sitting duck..

Now that said I hope he wises up and dumps the ball off more and takes less hits.. I suspect when the game slows down for him things will get better..

Jetmeck
11-12-2011, 02:45 PM
The issue is this: in 3 years, if Tebow continues to start, and continues to play as he does... will he have both of his kneecaps? Or will he already be heading for an early retirement? There is NO way in hell he can rush as much as he does, and stay healthy. He is going to get hurt. He needs to be able to sit in the pocket and THROW THE BALL. For an entire game if necessary.

That's what I want to see. Once he does that, I'll be a believer.

Fine but anyone that thinks he can't get better as a passer has a crystal ball that sees the future because we don't know.

lonestar
11-12-2011, 02:46 PM
My ass.....are you stupid or what ?

People like you are why threads like this get posted in the first place.

Exactly what those of us pulling for TT are trying to say is give him a decent amount of time and help.

Is it really that hard to follow along. ???

Nobody is saying he will turn out like Elway but he sure

AS HELL HAS DONE ENOUGH TO DESERVE A DECENT CHANCE TO

SUCCEED AND I WOULDN'T BLAME THE GUY GIVING YOU AND THOSE

LIKE YOU THE PLUMMER SIDELINE SALUTE.

YOUR HATRED IS WAY OFF BASE AND TOTALLY UNCALLED FOR.
:thumbs::pigsfly:


Well hold no punches next time will you.. :salute:

lonestar
11-12-2011, 02:49 PM
Fine but anyone that thinks he can't get better as a passer has a crystal ball that sees the future because we don't know.

ANyone that does not have his head up his/her ass knows that he will improve in the passing department..

but then some folks hate the guy for a lot of different reasons mostly dumb one..

Tombstone RJ
11-12-2011, 02:51 PM
interesting numbers on both Elway and Tebow. Both had conservative coaches (Reeves and Fox). If Tebow can become more proficient in the pocket than there's is a real chance he can be the Broncos long term answer at QB.

Jetmeck
11-12-2011, 02:51 PM
:thumbs::pigsfly:



Well hold not punches next time will you.. :salute:

Heh, some of these numb nuts deserve it. They are clueless and their parents should be slapped for raising them this way.

Rohirrim
11-12-2011, 03:14 PM
I think we should just go ahead and put Tebow in the HOF right now. In fact, we should put him in twice.

Archer81
11-12-2011, 03:17 PM
Its encouraging, but as others have said different eras. John had to learn the meaning of situational throws. Tim needs to learn how to set his feet. Both are/were outstanding runners. They both win. It could be alot worse than having another guy who can do what Elway did.

:Broncos:

orinjkrush
11-12-2011, 03:40 PM
its instructive to remember Elway, Favre, Young and others took SEASONS to develop, not games.

lonestar
11-12-2011, 03:42 PM
Its encouraging, but as others have said different eras. John had to learn the meaning of situational throws. Tim needs to learn how to set his feet. Both are/were outstanding runners. They both win. It could be alot worse than having another guy who can do what Elway did.

:Broncos:

most forget that John did not become a great QB until mikey was brought on board to mentor him and buffer him from reeves..who BTW wasted a#1 pick on maddox

lets hope John Remembers that come draft day.

MacGruder
11-12-2011, 03:45 PM
If Elway can't develop a guy like Tebow then what good is he really?

Speaking of which.. look how Elway F'ed Orton up compared to McD... Elway and Fox did nothing to make Orton look better.. they actually made him worse. And they were on his side and believed in him and he fit their style of play much more than Tebow.

enjolras
11-12-2011, 03:54 PM
Jay Gruden (OC Bengals) made the case that Tebow and the spread can work in the NFL.

http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/sports_bianchi/2011/11/jay-gruden-tim-tebow-bengals-broncos-spread-offense.html

Thought that was interesting.

Archer81
11-12-2011, 03:54 PM
If Elway can't develop a guy like Tebow then what good is he really?

Speaking of which.. look how Elway F'ed Orton up compared to McD... Elway and Fox did nothing to make Orton look better.. they actually made him worse. And they were on his side and believed in him and he fit their style of play much more than Tebow.


Every time you post, an angel gets black bagged for knowing too much about anti-gravity.


:Broncos:

Dedhed
11-12-2011, 03:57 PM
its instructive to remember Elway, Favre, Young and others took SEASONS to develop, not games.

This. It's stupid to compare any rookie to a HOFer, but it's perhaps more stupid to forget how poorly even great QBs played early in their careers.

errand
11-12-2011, 03:57 PM
most forget that John did not become a great QB until mikey was brought on board to mentor him and buffer him from reeves..who BTW wasted a#1 pick on maddox

lets hope John Remembers that come draft day.

Mike was originally brought in as WR coach in 1984...he became OC in '85...

Broncios went 13-3 in 1984...and John had already established himself as an up and coming gunslinger by the time Mike became OC.

And I doubt Mike was brought on board to be a buffer between Elway and Reeves. He might have assumed that role later, but to say that's why he was hired is pretty ignorant....

MacGruder
11-12-2011, 03:59 PM
Every time you post, an angel gets black bagged for knowing too much about anti-gravity.


:Broncos:

How can you refute what I just said? It's a fact.

Archer81
11-12-2011, 04:00 PM
How can you refute what I just said? It's a fact.


And another one gone...


:Broncos:

gunns
11-12-2011, 04:00 PM
My ass.....are you stupid or what ?

People like you are why threads like this get posted in the first place.

Exactly what those of us pulling for TT are trying to say is give him a decent amount of time and help.

Is it really that hard to follow along. ???

Nobody is saying he will turn out like Elway but he sure

AS HELL HAS DONE ENOUGH TO DESERVE A DECENT CHANCE TO

SUCCEED AND I WOULDN'T BLAME THE GUY GIVING YOU AND THOSE

LIKE YOU THE PLUMMER SIDELINE SALUTE.

YOUR HATRED IS WAY OFF BASE AND TOTALLY UNCALLED FOR.

Ahhh which leads to the question I've asked but has never been answered. What is a decent amount of time and help?

Hamrob
11-12-2011, 04:01 PM
I've been saying this over and over. The facts are that young qb's struggle and few bust out as being explosive their first couple of year playing. Why? They're learning how to read defenses and they're understanding when to do what, each time getting better.

Few guys have come in and set the world on fire. Marino is the only one that comes to my mind. Roethlesberger...not really, he just didn't make mistakes. Cam Newton...he's played extremely well. But, not very many ever do.

Tebow has played well...not great by any stretch, but well nevertheless. He deserves to play this year to see if he is our guy next year. As a fan, I would like to see him play this year to build a better understanding of the pro game and then be given a full offseason to prepare and then a full season next year to see what he's made out of.

The coparision to Elway can only be used to verify that Tebow is holding his own as a young player. The times have changed tremendously...so, has scoring. I can remember when 21-17 was high scoring. 30 points was absolutely lighting it up. You might see that once a season. The game is so focused on offense these days...it's a whole new ball game. Which is why I believe Elway keeps saying what he's saying about Tebow. It really doesn't matter what Elway did or anyone else for that matter.

Archer81
11-12-2011, 04:03 PM
Ahhh which leads to the question I've asked but has never been answered. What is a decent amount of time and help?


Well using Elway as the example, he was given 15 years and did not get "help" until the 12th year.

So to be fair, I would suggest an equal amount of time for Tebow.

...

Realistically Tebow needs more than 6 starts. To claim otherwise is drastically premature. Even with the lack of talent on the roster, and with his mechanical issues, he is .500. Not bad.

:Broncos:

MacGruder
11-12-2011, 04:05 PM
And another one gone...


:Broncos:

You're projecting...

Archer81
11-12-2011, 04:06 PM
You're projecting...


another one bites the dust...


:Broncos:

Dedhed
11-12-2011, 04:06 PM
Ahhh which leads to the question I've asked but has never been answered. What is a decent amount of time and help?

At least a full season.

MacGruder
11-12-2011, 04:07 PM
another one bites the dust...


:Broncos:

And you are projecting again..

Archer81
11-12-2011, 04:10 PM
And you are projecting again..


You dont want to be a cowboy?


:Broncos:

MacGruder
11-12-2011, 04:11 PM
You dont want to be a cowboy?


:Broncos:

Are you allergic to MSG?

Archer81
11-12-2011, 04:12 PM
Are you allergic to MSG?


What about pirates? You wanna be a pirate?


:Broncos:

MacGruder
11-12-2011, 04:15 PM
Can you dance the Macarena?

gunns
11-12-2011, 04:16 PM
At least a full season.

So that would be next season. The only reason I'd be for that is that we could draft and FA defense. But I would hate if we did that, got the defense up to par, but were still struggling at the QB position and then we start a rookie the next season. That starts resembling the Browns or Raiders. Or do we still draft a QB next year?

errand
11-12-2011, 04:16 PM
My ass.....are you stupid or what ?

People like you are why threads like this get posted in the first place.

Exactly what those of us pulling for TT are trying to say is give him a decent amount of time and help.

Is it really that hard to follow along. ???

Nobody is saying he will turn out like Elway but he sure

AS HELL HAS DONE ENOUGH TO DESERVE A DECENT CHANCE TO

SUCCEED AND I WOULDN'T BLAME THE GUY GIVING YOU AND THOSE

LIKE YOU THE PLUMMER SIDELINE SALUTE.

YOUR HATRED IS WAY OFF BASE AND TOTALLY UNCALLED FOR.

you're blind if you don't think this thread was started to proclaim the greatness of Timmy...

not my fault you can't read between the lines....

Archer81
11-12-2011, 04:17 PM
Can you dance the Macarena?


Are you a close talker?


:Broncos:

MacGruder
11-12-2011, 04:22 PM
Are you a close talker?


:Broncos:

Have you ever seen the movie Bio-Dome?

Archer81
11-12-2011, 04:23 PM
Have you ever seen the movie Bio-Dome?


Are they real? Are they spectacular?


:Broncos:

mosca
11-12-2011, 04:26 PM
when called out on their hero worship and waaaay-too-early, deliberate comparisons of tebow to elway, the tebow worshippers fall back on 'how dare you not let him have a full season to develop?!?'

he should get the full season to develop - we've invested that much in him by now. but if there are better options in the offseason we need to explore them, in the event that tebow does not progress much this year.

myMind
11-12-2011, 04:27 PM
Have you ever seen the movie Bio-Dome?

Are they real? Are they spectacular?
:Broncos:



Just get a room and bang already guys.

Sassy
11-12-2011, 04:28 PM
Tebow also has the benefit of defenders scared to bust him in the chops for fear of getting fined and a 15 yarder...

Instead of comparing them after 6 starts, let's wait until say 6 years..

If Tebow helps us make playoffs in rookie year like John did...oh wait...

Well, if Tebow leads us to a 13-3 record his second season...oh wait...

When Tebow leads us to an 11-5 record in his 3rd season and SB in his 4th and 5th, then maybe you clowns might have something nto run with....until then let's wait until he actually hits on 50% of his passes, wins more than a couple of games...and leads this team to the playoffs before you start the "Elway" comparisons...

****ing hero worshipers....

Uh oh...I'm agreeing with this!:P

Archer81
11-12-2011, 04:29 PM
Just get a room and bang already guys.


Mandalay Industries?


:Broncos:

MacGruder
11-12-2011, 04:32 PM
when called out on their hero worship and waaaay-too-early, deliberate comparisons of tebow to elway, the tebow worshippers fall back on 'how dare you not let him have a full season to develop?!?'

he should get the full season to develop - we've invested that much in him by now. but if there are better options in the offseason we need to explore them, in the event that tebow does not progress much this year.

Just always be aware that Tebow could dominate somewhere else if used properly and they will benefit from the time and effort the Broncos invested in him...

Dedhed
11-12-2011, 04:34 PM
when called out on their hero worship and waaaay-too-early, deliberate comparisons of tebow to elway, the tebow worshippers fall back on 'how dare you not let him have a full season to develop?!?'

he should get the full season to develop - we've invested that much in him by now. but if there are better options in the offseason we need to explore them, in the event that tebow does not progress much this year.

Sure we should, but the "week-to-week" talk from the FO is absurd, imo.

Bronco Yoda
11-12-2011, 04:35 PM
Ahhh which leads to the question I've asked but has never been answered. What is a decent amount of time and help?

Two seasons at least as long as we're around .500 .We have too many other holes to worry about constantly chasing the grass-is-greener-QB out there somewhere.

mosca
11-12-2011, 04:39 PM
Just always be aware that Tebow could dominate somewhere else if used properly and they will benefit from the time and effort the Broncos invested in him...
he has just as much a chance as kyle orton does of 'dominating' anywhere else.

Play2win
11-12-2011, 04:39 PM
come back to me when Tebow has a Howie Long gunning for his KNEES on every fricken play.

gunns
11-12-2011, 04:41 PM
its instructive to remember Elway, Favre, Young and others took SEASONS to develop, not games.

Uh, I just love all this stat stuff because some don't want to see the whole story but Elway improved by game. Yes it takes QB's seasons to fully develop but it takes games to see improvement. Elway was 12-2 as a starter in his second season, 11-5 in the next 2. And we all know what a great offense he had to work with. ::)

baja
11-12-2011, 04:43 PM
So that would be next season. The only reason I'd be for that is that we could draft and FA defense. But I would hate if we did that, got the defense up to par, but were still struggling at the QB position and then we start a rookie the next season. That starts resembling the Browns or Raiders. Or do we still draft a QB next year?

It's possible we have three good QBs on the team right now not counting Orton.

gunns
11-12-2011, 04:48 PM
Just always be aware that Tebow could dominate somewhere else if used properly and they will benefit from the time and effort the Broncos invested in him...

This has got to be the LEAST of my worries for the Broncos.

MacGruder
11-12-2011, 04:48 PM
he has just as much a chance as kyle orton does of 'dominating' anywhere else.

How can you say that? Orton has been the same player for years.. Tebow is a one of a kind and the coaches changed his motion and mechanics and he is being put in a very different system than he has ever played in. Tebow needs MORE evaluation time than a player like Orton not less.

PLUS Tebow has athleticism Orton could only dream of. Which makes him worth investing in. Maybe the best recent comparisons to Tebow are McNair and Garrard who both took time to develop. Steve Young as well. And Brett Favre who also had success after going to another team.

MacGruder
11-12-2011, 04:49 PM
This has got to be the LEAST of my worries for the Broncos.

Why?

mosca
11-12-2011, 04:52 PM
How can you say that? Orton has been the same player for years.. Tebow is a one of a kind and the coaches changed his motion and mechanics and he is being put in a very different system than he has ever played in. Tebow needs MORE evaluation time than a player like Orton not less.

PLUS Tebow has athleticism Orton could only dream of. Which makes him worth investing in. Maybe the best recent comparisons to Tebow are McNair and Garrard who both took time to develop. Steve Young as well. And Brett Favre who also had success after going to another team.
Just saying, your argument that Tebow could go 'dominate' somewhere else as reason for us to keep him is ridiculous. Orton already possesses a skillset as a passer that surpasses Tebow, and yes, Tebow is clearly the better runner. That being said, I don't think either one are necessarily world-beaters right now that we have to worry about losing to other teams. I'm more worried about what Jay Cutler could do with the Bears than what either of our two guys could do with another team.

gunns
11-12-2011, 05:02 PM
Why?

Because I'm one that believes there has been little improvement with Tebow and I'm also one that believes Elway knows more about the position and what he sees in Tebow. So if they do trade him to another team I do not believe we will regret it. See Mac these are beliefs, just like you have in Tebow, not facts. There are so few facts in life....or your posts.

MacGruder
11-12-2011, 05:02 PM
Just saying, your argument that Tebow could go 'dominate' somewhere else as reason for us to keep him is ridiculous. Orton already possesses a skillset as a passer that surpasses Tebow,

I completely disagree.. the only thing Orton ahs over Tebow is EXPERIENCE.. and that is the only thing Tebow needs. I have seen much better playmaking ability just as a pure passer with Tebow than with Orton. Especially before NFL coaches messed up Tebow's mechanics.. and many experts have said they never should or needed to do that.

and yes, Tebow is clearly the better runner. That being said, I don't think either one are necessarily world-beaters right now that we have to worry about losing to other teams. I'm more worried about what Jay Cutler could do with the Bears than what either of our two guys could do with another team.

Look what Mike Vick became after going to prison and coming back in a new system with a better coach. Yes he has struggled some this season but he was also almost MVP last season and his team is not that complete.

I think Tebow is way ahead of vick mentally coming out of college and I think Tebow is more suited to the NFL because of his durability. He has shown his playmaking/clutchness potential in flashes which is as good as anyone.

and let's face it.. Tebow has had AWFUL coaching.. I wouldn't be surprised if ANY coach in the NFL could get more out of Tebow.. let alone an offensive genius.

MacGruder
11-12-2011, 05:05 PM
Because I'm one that believes there has been little improvement with Tebow and I'm also one that believes Elway knows more about the position and what he sees in Tebow. So if they do trade him to another team I do not believe we will regret it. See Mac these are beliefs, just like you have in Tebow, not facts. There are so few facts in life....or your posts.

The fact is Fox has shown to be a horrible offensive coach especially when it comes to developing QBs.

But since Elway picked him I guess you are stuck with him.. is that your thinking?

And Tebow has shown growth.. you just can't tell because the coaching has been so awful. That's a fact as well.

DarkHorse
11-12-2011, 05:08 PM
If we're going to use the different era's excuse then we should remove most of the HOF players as they played in a different era. ?

Archer81
11-12-2011, 05:11 PM
Well...

This argument is cycling back into familar territory.

:Broncos:

Jetmeck
11-12-2011, 05:15 PM
he has just as much a chance as kyle orton does of 'dominating' anywhere else.

oRTON has been and always will be average...........

Wes Mantooth
11-12-2011, 05:17 PM
Elway was a young QB trying to figure out how to be a pro QB.

Tebow is a h-back trying to figure out how to be a QB.

big difference.

Jetmeck
11-12-2011, 05:17 PM
Because I'm one that believes there has been little improvement with Tebow and I'm also one that believes Elway knows more about the position and what he sees in Tebow. So if they do trade him to another team I do not believe we will regret it. See Mac these are beliefs, just like you have in Tebow, not facts. There are so few facts in life....or your posts.

Well in short.................your wrong

You saw the stats....don't believe them or what ?
Do you just hate the guy but don't got the balls to just say it ?

Jetmeck
11-12-2011, 05:19 PM
Elway was a young QB trying to figure out how to be a pro QB.

Tebow is a h-back trying to figure out how to be a QB.

big difference.

Another tard...............since you see the future...whats up with the market next year ?

Rolandftw
11-12-2011, 05:24 PM
Fans need to just give Tebow a chance to development. These comparisons just piss off most long time Bronco fans, and make our fan base look stupid.

Play2win
11-12-2011, 05:25 PM
There's a better chance that 911 was an inside job, than the reason that we're keeping Tebow because he would go and dominate somewhere else. Both are kookie ideas, but one is just a little more far-fetched.

Jetmeck
11-12-2011, 05:27 PM
Fans need to just give Tebow a chance to development. These comparisons just piss off most long time Bronco fans, and make our fan base look stupid.

Only reason the STASTICAL COMPARISONS ONLY are being made is because of a few haters

Wes Mantooth
11-12-2011, 05:29 PM
Another tard...............since you see the future...whats up with the market next year ?

Seriously? I don't have to see the future to know that the guy has a huge curve to becoming a pro QB. He simply does not have the same tools as other QB's that come into the league.

Can he win games? Looks like it. Compare him to John Elway? Your the one with your head up your a$$.

Jetmeck
11-12-2011, 05:33 PM
Seriously? I don't have to see the future to know that the guy has a huge curve to becoming a pro QB. He simply does not have the same tools as other QB's that come into the league.

Can he win games? Looks like it. Compare him to John Elway? Your the one with your head up your a$$.

Guess what I can read, can you. ?

His first few games are much better than Elway's and I didn't compare to Elway in the way your infering. Only stating FACTUAL STATS some here can't understand english I guess.

So again whats the future hold since you are all knowing ?

Wes Mantooth
11-12-2011, 05:38 PM
Guess what I can read, can you. ?

His first few games are much better than Elway's and I didn't compare to Elway in the way your infering. Only stating FACTUAL STATS some here can't understand english I guess.

So again whats the future hold since you are all knowing ?

OK, I will start over. Elway is significantly farther along at this point than Tim Tebow. There is no comparison. Tim Tebow has a significantly tougher road to turning into a pro QB than Elway. Can it happen, I sure hope so.

Does that make more sense?

barryr
11-12-2011, 05:39 PM
Elway was a young QB trying to figure out how to be a pro QB.

Tebow is a h-back trying to figure out how to be a QB.

big difference.

I must have missed all the games Tebow lined up at HB.

HAT
11-12-2011, 05:43 PM
Can't wait to see what QB is used in the inevitable...."Tebow vs. QBX, through 7 games"

barryr
11-12-2011, 05:44 PM
So you can't compare Tebow with Elway stat-wise because of a different era? You have to be kidding me. But then what about Eli Manning? That wasn't so long ago and look at his stats his first handful of games and how his numbers were really bad and worse than Tebow's. But he improved enough to eventually win a Super Bowl. The bozos that want to somehow "know" that Tebow can not possibly improve while others can are showing to be dumber than the "Tebow worshippers" as they call them and mock. Jeff George looked the part of a QB, but then he had to play in the games. Looks mean nothing, it is all about results.

Spider
11-12-2011, 05:44 PM
:rofl: some of you bastards are batshiat crazy or never seen elway play, and in comparison this is tebow 2nd year..
.

Wes Mantooth
11-12-2011, 05:45 PM
I must have missed all the games Tebow lined up at HB.

He should have. It would have been epic!

Listen, he can run. We will ride those abilities for some time. I really hope they mix in quite a bit of play action tomorrow and he can execute.

Please be real people, he is not the second coming of John Elway.

MacGruder
11-12-2011, 05:45 PM
Seriously? I don't have to see the future to know that the guy has a huge curve to becoming a pro QB. He simply does not have the same tools as other QB's that come into the league.

Can he win games? Looks like it. Compare him to John Elway? Your the one with your head up your a$$.

Be very very careful the assumptions you make..

Don't confuse looks with reality.

The same reason you view Tebow this way is the same reason most people in college said Tebow could never survive as a passer in the SEC.

People always assume that because Tebow DOESN'T rely on his passing that he isn't a good passer. But the reality is he doesn't have to rely on his passing.. he doesn't have to put himself in a position to turn the ball over like Orton always did. He can use other attributes to make himself more successful.

Just take screen passes. Tebow can throw the ball over his defender knowing he will get hammered and deliver perfect screen passes. Orton could not do this. This is just one small example of how his abilities help his team so much. These things can't be easily factored in. I suggest looking at the win loss column. Tebow currently has as many road wins as Orton had in his last 28 games.

Wes Mantooth
11-12-2011, 05:46 PM
:rofl: some of you bastards are batshiat crazy or never seen elway play, and in comparison this is tebow 2nd year..
.

Thank God for reason Spider.

barryr
11-12-2011, 05:47 PM
He should have. It would have been epic!

Listen, he can run. We will ride those abilities for some time. I really hope they mix in quite a bit of play action tomorrow and he can execute.

Please be real people, he is not the second coming of John Elway.

Who the hell said he was? The point in using Elway as a comparison is to show that even great QB's can struggle or not put up great looking stats to start their careers. It hardly means he or any other QB would be like him or play like him. That is so hard to comprehend?

Wes Mantooth
11-12-2011, 05:47 PM
Be very very careful the assumptions you make..

Don't confuse looks with reality.

The same reason you view Tebow this way is the same reason most people in college said Tebow could never survive as a passer in the SEC.

People always assume that because Tebow DOESN'T rely on his passing that he isn't a good passer. But the reality is he doesn't have to rely on his passing.. he doesn't have to put himself in a position to turn the ball over like Orton always did. He can use other attributes to make himself more successful.

Just take screen passes. Tebow can throw the ball over his defender knowing he will get hammered and deliver perfect screen passes. Orton could not do this. This is just one small example of how his abilities help his team so much. These things can't be easily factored in. I suggest looking at the win loss column. Tebow currently has as many road wins as Orton had in his last 28 games.

This is an Elway Tebow comparision however. Tebow is a signifigant upgrade to Orton. He is not John Elway.

Archer81
11-12-2011, 05:48 PM
This is an Elway Tebow comparision however. Tebow is a signifigant upgrade to Orton. He is not John Elway.


1998 Elway? Nope. 1983 Elway? Yes.

That is the point of this ridiculous thread.


:Broncos:

barryr
11-12-2011, 05:48 PM
:rofl: some of you bastards are batshiat crazy or never seen elway play, and in comparison this is tebow 2nd year..
.

Follow closely: Tebow's first 5 games have to include some this year since he did not start 5 games as a rookie. Duh.

MacGruder
11-12-2011, 05:51 PM
Elway was a young QB trying to figure out how to be a pro QB.

Tebow is a h-back trying to figure out how to be a QB.

big difference.

Actually Tebow had a much better college career than Elway. It's actually rude to compare Elway to Tebow at the same stage of their careers. Elway was just an arm. All hypothetical potential. He hadn't actually proved anything at that point.

Spider
11-12-2011, 05:55 PM
Follow closely: Tebow's first 5 games have to include some this year since he did not start 5 games as a rookie. Duh.

speaking of duh....point is genius tebow should be far ahead of 83 elway..compare tebow to 84 elway..sitting a year is a plus

Archer81
11-12-2011, 05:56 PM
Actually Tebow had a much better college career than Elway. It's actually rude to compare Elway to Tebow at the same stage of their careers. Elway was just an arm. All hypothetical potential. He hadn't actually proved anything at that point.


For ****'s sake, stop. Vietnamese hookers know more about football than you and all they know about the game is the Patriots won the superbowl in 1985 because of the helpful championship tshirts.

:Broncos:

Spider
11-12-2011, 06:01 PM
holy freaking **** u butt secking teboners elway was thrown in the fire tebow wasnt but you rump rangerz know this, thats y this stupid off the wall bullshiat is posted

MacGruder
11-12-2011, 06:03 PM
For ****'s sake, stop. Vietnamese hookers know more about football than you and all they know about the game is the Patriots won the superbowl in 1985 because of the helpful championship tshirts.

:Broncos:

You're projecting...

Archer81
11-12-2011, 06:09 PM
You're projecting...


No, you dumbass. I am stating a fact. In 1983 no one had EVER seen a prospect like John Elway at the QB position. For a mental giant such as yourself to sit there and say "he was just an arm" not only proves you are not a Broncos fan, it also screams that your football knowledge in general is lacking.

But look who I am wasting my time on. A dumb cow too ****ing stupid to realize he does not ****ing get it.

Asshat.

:Broncos:

Jetmeck
11-12-2011, 06:18 PM
OK, I will start over. Elway is significantly farther along at this point than Tim Tebow. There is no comparison. Tim Tebow has a significantly tougher road to turning into a pro QB than Elway. Can it happen, I sure hope so.

Does that make more sense?


Nope, the stats are black and white irrefutable.
Your wrong. Your guessing. You have no factual basis
for your argument but keep going. The stats are all made
up..................................Hilarious!

Jetmeck
11-12-2011, 06:21 PM
holy freaking **** u butt secking teboners elway was thrown in the fire tebow wasnt but you rump rangerz know this, thats y this stupid off the wall bullshiat is posted

BS pos ts like is why because people REFUSE TO READ BLACK AND WHITE STATS and use common sense and logic because they see the future and they know more than what stastical evidence and the known thought process that QBs get better with experience.

Don't let anything stand in the way of your crystal ball.............

MacGruder
11-12-2011, 06:21 PM
No, you dumbass. I am stating a fact. In 1983 no one had EVER seen a prospect like John Elway at the QB position. For a mental giant such as yourself to sit there and say "he was just an arm" not only proves you are not a Broncos fan, it also screams that your football knowledge in general is lacking.

But look who I am wasting my time on. A dumb cow too ****ing stupid to realize he does not ****ing get it.

Asshat.

:Broncos:

prospect : pros·pect   [pros-pekt] Show IPA
noun
1.
Usually, prospects.
a.
an apparent probability of advancement, success, profit, etc.
b.
the outlook for the future: good business prospects.
2.
anticipation; expectation; a looking forward.
3.
something in view as a source of profit.
4.
a potential or likely customer, client, etc.
5.
a potential or likely candidate.
EXPAND
verb (used with object)
11.
to search or explore (a region), as for gold.
12.
to work (a mine or claim) experimentally in order to test its value.



You trash me then reiterate my point.

What made him a prospect? it wasn't WINNING.

mosca
11-12-2011, 07:13 PM
oRTON has been and always will be average...........
Ok, so you're writing off Orton and giving Tebow a free pass based on his 6 games which overall have been..... average. Ok, great logic.

mosca
11-12-2011, 07:18 PM
Just take screen passes. Tebow can throw the ball over his defender knowing he will get hammered and deliver perfect screen passes. Orton could not do this. This is just one small example of how his abilities help his team so much.
So Orton cannot throw screen passes, while Tebow can? You just lost some credibility.

mosca
11-12-2011, 07:20 PM
Nope, the stats are black and white irrefutable.
Your wrong. Your guessing. You have no factual basis
for your argument but keep going. The stats are all made
up..................................Hilarious!
you need to get a high school education - it's "you're" not "your". then get back to us on your statistical football analysis.

MacGruder
11-12-2011, 07:22 PM
So Orton cannot throw screen passes, while Tebow can? You just lost some credibility.

Not as effectively. Orton would get injured doing that. He would throw the ball away before the defender had a chance to hit him in the same situation.

That is just one small example illustrating how Tebow's durability is so valuable. The same is true on all down field throws as well.

They had a segment on Peyton manning last seaosn and it showed him getting hammered on every pass and delivering the ball perfect anyway. Orton cannot do this at all. Most QBs can't and if they do their passing ability diminishes greatly or they get injured. And this isn't counting Tebow's mobility and elusiveness. But it shows how those abilities can go unrecognized. Again.. it's likely why Tebow has as many road wins as Orton over the last 28 games.

baja
11-12-2011, 07:25 PM
So Orton cannot throw screen passes, while Tebow can? You just lost some credibility.

He said Orton had trouble with screen passes when he knew he was going to take a hit

I saw that a few times with Orton. Isn't that partly why he is called fetal Orton.

Jetmeck
11-12-2011, 07:48 PM
you need to get a high school education - it's "you're" not "your". then get back to us on your statistical football analysis.

Guess you never text, huh ? Orton has only had six games ? Where you been ? in middle school ?

Jetmeck
11-12-2011, 07:54 PM
:rofl: some of you bastards are batshiat crazy or never seen elway play, and in comparison this is tebow 2nd year..
.

30 + years a BrONCO FAN THANK YOU IN HOSTILE TERRITORY AS WELL.

Since John started from day one at this point in time wouldn't he have started a years worth of games more than Tebow....there you go for some of the not so rocket scientist orientated of those among us.
Think Tebow would improve in another year, you bet .........

Your wrong.............

Jetmeck
11-12-2011, 07:55 PM
Ok, so you're writing off Orton and giving Tebow a free pass based on his 6 games which overall have been..... average. Ok, great logic.

Damn straight Orton should have never came to Denver.................

Spider
11-12-2011, 08:06 PM
30 + years a BrONCO FAN THANK YOU IN HOSTILE TERRITORY AS WELL.

Since John started from day one at this point in time wouldn't he have started a years worth of games more than Tebow....there you go for some of the not so rocket scientist orientated of those among us.
Think Tebow would improve in another year, you bet .........

Your wrong.............

are you experimenting with drugs ?

BroncoBeavis
11-12-2011, 08:16 PM
The best stat comparison in there is the third down percentage. Everyone dogs Tebow for 3rd down conversion percentage, but he almost doubles up Elway there.

But I'm guessing converting on 3rd down was much less important or something back in the old days. :~ohyah!:

Spider
11-12-2011, 08:19 PM
BS pos ts like is why because people REFUSE TO READ BLACK AND WHITE STATS and use common sense and logic because they see the future and they know more than what stastical evidence and the known thought process that QBs get better with experience.

Don't let anything stand in the way of your crystal ball.............

so you are a stat guy hun ? so then you would also have to claim ,moreno, kelly,montana were better then elway
....of course this is the very reason personal stats dont fly in the nfl
..****ers need stats for that ff bullshiat

BroncoMan4ever
11-12-2011, 08:23 PM
different eras, different rules. When Elway's career started the rules hadn't been ****ed with to make it an offensive and QB league. he played without instant replay and in an era when the QB was basically just another player on the field and could get hammered just like anyone else.

sorry, but comparisons between 2 QBs from this era to that era is like comparing 2 different sports. and that goes for any QB now compared to anyone back then. not just directed at Tim.

baja
11-12-2011, 08:29 PM
The best stat comparison in there is the third down percentage. Everyone dogs Tebow for 3rd down conversion percentage, but he almost doubles up Elway there.

But I'm guessing converting on 3rd down was much less important or something back in the old days. :~ohyah!:

That might have something to do with Dan Reeves' play calling, seemed like Elway was always facing 3rd and 7

errand
11-12-2011, 08:34 PM
30 + years a BrONCO FAN THANK YOU IN HOSTILE TERRITORY AS WELL.

Since John started from day one at this point in time wouldn't he have started a years worth of games more than Tebow....there you go for some of the not so rocket scientist orientated of those among us.
Think Tebow would improve in another year, you bet .........

Your wrong.............

Elway only appeared in 11 games in '83...he had I believe 10 starts and made one relief appearance after DeBerg got injured.

Elway started the first 4 or 5 games in 1983...he was then benched as it became obvious he was struggling with the speed of the NFL, He then came back in the last few weeks after DeBerg seperated his shoulder, helping us finish 9-7 and make playoffs as wildcard. DeBerg started vs Seahawks, and we got hammered 31-7.

The Elway that started those last few games was much more improved over the one that started the first few...and his improvement made DeBerg expendable. He said being able to sit and watch and learn helped him absorb the playbook and that helped him play heads and tails better late in the season.

errand
11-12-2011, 08:40 PM
Damn straight Orton should have never came to Denver.................

you do realize that had he not come to Denver, your man crush on Tebow wouldn't be happening....

lonestar
11-12-2011, 08:51 PM
That might have something to do with Dan Reeves' play calling, seemed like Elway was always facing 3rd and 7

NOt that I have kept track but that is much like what tebow is doing..

3rd and 6 or more depending on clady and his holding calls..

sorry but samie samie no huge difference..

at least on Reeves teams they seemed to be more disciplined..

lonestar
11-12-2011, 08:53 PM
Elway only appeared in 11 games in '83...he had I believe 10 starts and made one relief appearance after DeBerg got injured.

Elway started the first 4 or 5 games in 1983...he was then benched as it became obvious he was struggling with the speed of the NFL, He then came back in the last few weeks after DeBerg seperated his shoulder, helping us finish 9-7 and make playoffs as wildcard. DeBerg started vs Seahawks, and we got hammered 31-7.

The Elway that started those last few games was much more improved over the one that started the first few...and his improvement made DeBerg expendable. He said being able to sit and watch and learn helped him absorb the playbook and that helped him play heads and tails better late in the season.


and your point is?

epicSocialism4tw
11-12-2011, 09:00 PM
Elway was a young QB trying to figure out how to be a pro QB.

Tebow is a h-back trying to figure out how to be a QB.

big difference.

Then Elway must have sucked considering that Tebow is a better QB at this point than Elway was through 6 games.

Seriously.

The haters just need to turn down the volume. As is evidenced by Elway's early stats (and as those of us who watched it real time can attest), even the best young players have up-and-down results.

The important thing is that they progress.

By all means, Tebow is progressing.

Inkana7
11-12-2011, 09:17 PM
By all means, Tebow is progressing.

I would like to know how you came to this conclusion. Completion percentage and third down conversions have been pretty static through all three starts. The only difference was that last game we had a monster running game to ride to victory. I realize that Tebow is an integral part of that, but if a spread-option running QB is all that is needed to win in the NFL, we should just draft Denard Robinson or see what Pat White is up to these days.

epicSocialism4tw
11-12-2011, 09:21 PM
I would like to know how you came to this conclusion. Completion percentage and third down conversions have been pretty static through all three starts. The only difference was that last game we had a monster running game to ride to victory. I realize that Tebow is an integral part of that, but if a spread-option running QB is all that is needed to win in the NFL, we should just draft Denard Robinson or see what Pat White is up to these days.

How many times was Tebow sacked on Sunday?

How many rushing yards did Tebow have Sunday?

How many center-QB exchanges did Tebow botch Sunday?

What was Tebow's TD-INT ratio Sunday?

epicSocialism4tw
11-12-2011, 09:25 PM
The basic premise of the original post is this: do not rush to judgment.

There is no reason to rush to judgment, and a rush to judgment reveals an irrational bias on the part of someone who irrationally criticizes.

What does anyone gain by over-criticizing Tebow? Why not just watch it play out and enjoy the fact that the Broncos actually mean something now?

There wasn't even this much attention on the Broncos in 2005, when we won the AFC West and made the Championship game.

Popps
11-12-2011, 09:28 PM
http://cdn2.mixrmedia.com/wp-uploads/girlybubble/blog/2011/08/12.gif

MacGruder
11-12-2011, 09:47 PM
I would like to know how you came to this conclusion. Completion percentage and third down conversions have been pretty static through all three starts. The only difference was that last game we had a monster running game to ride to victory. I realize that Tebow is an integral part of that, but if a spread-option running QB is all that is needed to win in the NFL, we should just draft Denard Robinson or see what Pat White is up to these days.

If Tebow couldn't pass there is no way his team has 300 yards rushing.

This is what I keep trying to explain to people.. don't confuse "not passing" with can't pass.

The reason Tebow doesn't throw the ball around and get picked like Orton is because he can run. He can make up for his teams weaknesses at receiver and offensive line etc.

As the team starts winning more and gets more confidence and gets "momentum" Tebow will start being more aggressive passing the ball and the team will gain more and more momentum.

This is why tou can't go by surface looks and stats..

Look at cam.. he puts up big numbers.. but he also puts up a lot of interceptions. Really Cam is a lot like Orton..

Both guys are credited for empty yards and losing.

Tebow doesn't put up the numbers and looks ugly but wins..

Shoemaker
11-12-2011, 09:58 PM
Really Cam is a lot like Orton.

Yo, MacGruder, you've said a lot of crazy things, but this sentence was a bit buried in that last post, and I just wanted to call attention to it.

I think it proves you might be either mentally deficient or legally blind, because I could hardly think of two quarterbacks LESS alike than Cam Newton and Kyle Orton.

But hey, you keep on doing your thing. Don't let being wrong about literally everything stop you!

errand
11-12-2011, 10:22 PM
and your point is?

the guy said elway started since day one and had a full season..i provided the proof that he did not have an entire season of starting.

errand
11-12-2011, 10:30 PM
The basic premise of the original post is this: do not rush to judgment.

There is no reason to rush to judgment, and a rush to judgment reveals an irrational bias on the part of someone who irrationally criticizes.


Doesn't this whole rushing to judgement thing go both ways?

Isn't saying he's gonna be a superstar in this league, revolutionizing the QB position and he's the real deal after 6 starts also rushing to judgement?

Are you clowns not also rushing to judgement saying Tim's all that and a bag of chips?

You start pointing out he's only had 6 starts..and yet that same argument is being made by those that have their reservations about him. It's only been 6 freaking games...let's see where he is if he's even around after six years...then perhaps you can make a better assessment of his standing in NFL lore.

MacGruder
11-12-2011, 11:06 PM
Are you clowns not also rushing to judgement saying Tim's all that and a bag of chips?



I don' think so.. because he has shown everything you would want from a QB. And what he doesn't have should be able to be developed because of all his great characteristics.

I think people that don't get this are just looking a gift horse in the mouth.

MacGruder
11-12-2011, 11:07 PM
Yo, MacGruder, you've said a lot of crazy things, but this sentence was a bit buried in that last post, and I just wanted to call attention to it.

I think it proves you might be either mentally deficient or legally blind, because I could hardly think of two quarterbacks LESS alike than Cam Newton and Kyle Orton.

But hey, you keep on doing your thing. Don't let being wrong about literally everything stop you!

We will see.. time will tell.

All truth goes through three phases..

Circle Orange
11-12-2011, 11:18 PM
Another weekend, booze induced thread. http://scosoft.com/s/y/8a115dc.gif

epicSocialism4tw
11-12-2011, 11:24 PM
Doesn't this whole rushing to judgement thing go both ways?

Isn't saying he's gonna be a superstar in this league, revolutionizing the QB position and he's the real deal after 6 starts also rushing to judgement?

Are you clowns not also rushing to judgement saying Tim's all that and a bag of chips?

You start pointing out he's only had 6 starts..and yet that same argument is being made by those that have their reservations about him. It's only been 6 freaking games...let's see where he is if he's even around after six years...then perhaps you can make a better assessment of his standing in NFL lore.

This isn't about "NFL lore".

It simply a reality check.

Only a complete senseless idiot would look at those numbers and be offended. Its using the worst part of Elway's career to illustrate the point that young players struggle. How does that offend anyone? Are people gripping so tightly to a myth that they can't look at reality?

Elway made me a football fan, and it was that early struggle that provided the fuel for the payoff.

Tebow is faring better than Elway up to this point. In no way does that predict anything about the future. But it does provide some well-needed levity as to what the reality of the situation is in the here and now.

None of us should have any problems with Tebow fanboys. They are, after all, pulling for the Broncos to win. That is common ground for all of us. The haters on the other hand...they should just go ahead and move along. There's nothing for them here anymore. They don't have much in common with Broncos fans if they're not pulling for wins. Some of them have already moved to Raiders boards. They should stay over there.

Armchair Bronco
11-13-2011, 04:09 AM
Jay Gruden (OC Bengals) made the case that Tebow and the spread can work in the NFL.

http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/sports_bianchi/2011/11/jay-gruden-tim-tebow-bengals-broncos-spread-offense.html

Thought that was interesting.

Great read. Really liked some of the user comments (like John at 12:08).

Armchair Bronco
11-13-2011, 04:12 AM
Here's that quote.

"The NFL experts are old and out of touch with today. Young fresh football minds arent wrapped up in the won’t work in the NFL crap. The old minds said the west coast off. running QB etc won’t work in the NFL but lo and behold here we are. The experts get paid a lot of money to know what they know anything new or outside their expert opinion gets slaughtered to protect their expert status and pay check. Also, everyone including Elway talk about Tebow’s comp. % ( you can’t win with 50%) really now? Mr holier than thou Elway only broke 60% 3 yrs out of 16 with a career avg in the mid 50%. Tebow doesn’t throw int like other QB in the NFL. He takes care of the ball. While Elway had several yrs with more ints than TDs he avg only 4 more TDs than ints for his career. Tebow also has more yds running in 3 games than mr Elway got per season ( stats from nfl.com ) Add Tebow’s run and pass yds and he produces more gained yds than Elway. Add in tim’s fan base and I’m beginning to think Elway is afraid to lose his god status in Denver to Tebow. Instead he should embrace Tebow’s success, support and train him like urban meyers did and ride the Tebow train to even higher levels of love from the Denver nation."

Broncos4tw
11-13-2011, 06:15 AM
Ok, so you're writing off Orton and giving Tebow a free pass based on his 6 games which overall have been..... average. Ok, great logic.

Orton wrote himself off. After how many years and starts versus Tebow's 6 starts, Orton can certainly be written off for his crap-ass, no care, limp attitude performances. Tebow while still needing to prove he can pass the ball effectively in the NFL, has a stronger desire to win and tries to win every single play he is on the field. It's why when the play breaks down, Tebow tries to run over lineman, and Orton collapses in a limp heap. Not the best career choices for Tebow honestly.. he can't run like that every game.. but at least he shows he wants to win.

Broncos4tw
11-13-2011, 06:22 AM
If Tebow couldn't pass there is no way his team has 300 yards rushing.

This is what I keep trying to explain to people.. don't confuse "not passing" with can't pass.

The reason Tebow doesn't throw the ball around and get picked like Orton is because he can run. He can make up for his teams weaknesses at receiver and offensive line etc.

As the team starts winning more and gets more confidence and gets "momentum" Tebow will start being more aggressive passing the ball and the team will gain more and more momentum.


You are being overly optimistic of Tebow's abilities. Yes, obviously you WANT him to be an NFL passer, but you honestly don't know if he can. You are basing this assumption on what exactly? Many of his passes this year have been terribly off. He hasn't caught up to the speed of the NFL yet in the passing game.

You are really reaching by saying he is running to make up for weaknesses on the team. Please...

He is making up for his own weaknesses at the passing game. There is no way in hell he'll be able to keep up those sorts of rushes and have a career that isn't riddled with injuries and missed games. You are nuts if you think our line and receivers are the reason he doesn't pass. You yourself just said Orton gets plenty of "empty" yards and loses. But he can and has passed for over 300 yards. Our line and receivers are not THAT terrible. Stop trying to push blame for his development onto the rest of the team.. that's weaksauce dude.

He may be able to develop into what we need, but he hasn't shown it yet. I want to see almost an entire game where he CAN sit in the pocket, find targets, complete passes, and win a game. Then I'll be more comfortable with him behind center.

broncswin
11-13-2011, 07:21 AM
Will be exciting if he keeps growing and learns to go through his reads quicker...learns to understand NFL defenses better...I think this guys work ethic will help him with both...I also think he will settle in through more and more reps...I am not saying this guy is the next Elway...Just saying it will be exciting if he turns in a good performance in Arrowhead today and comes out with a win...This thread is simple-If he keeps improving, then we may have our QB of the future...If he stays at the same level or regresses, then we know that we have to move on....I really believe the first one will come true...Wishful thinking

Spider
11-13-2011, 08:12 AM
Great read. Really liked some of the user comments (like John at 12:08).I just have questions about the spread in the red zone, well more about the players we have....

Wes Mantooth
11-13-2011, 09:17 AM
30 + years a BrONCO FAN THANK YOU IN HOSTILE TERRITORY AS WELL.

Since John started from day one at this point in time wouldn't he have started a years worth of games more than Tebow....there you go for some of the not so rocket scientist orientated of those among us.
Think Tebow would improve in another year, you bet .........

Your wrong.............

So Jetmeck, this is where you are guessing. I will throw out the disclaimer that I don't remember the 83 season, so you are right that I was guessing and not looking at the facts. I did however, take the time to look up a bit more detail on the black and white stats.

Though John "started" day one, he only completely played 2 of his first 6 games. In the four games he did play and was pulled Steve Deberg played half or more of the snaps.

Additionally, there is a 6 game gap between Elway's 5th and 6th start.

If you do look through the first 24 games or Tebow's 6th start, Elway has a significant amount of additional playing time. In fact in his second season, though he doesn't start every game, he does lead the Broncs to a 13-3 record and a playoff birth.

From this, the only things that relate are that they both struggled and wore a Bronco uniform. To say that this somehow means that Tebow will be great or even average is fortune telling, something I am not capable of.

I sure hope Tebow is successful, I am tired of the QB carousel. My original point is his journey will be longer than Elway's as he does not have the developed pro tools that every team in the league looks for.

Tebow is no John Elway however.

Dedhed
11-13-2011, 09:34 AM
Ok, so you're writing off Orton and giving Tebow a free pass based on his 6 games which overall have been..... average. Ok, great logic.

Not many QBs progress rapidly during their 8th year in the league. That's the difference. The fact that a raw 2nd year QB is drastically more effective speaks either highly of Tebow or lowly of Orton.

The point of this thread, which has been brutally bastardized because it happens to mention Elway and Tebow in the same paragraph, is not that Tebow can be like Elway, but that early struggles have little prognostic value.

Wes Mantooth
11-13-2011, 09:49 AM
Not many QBs progress rapidly during their 8th year in the league. That's the difference. The fact that a raw 2nd year QB is drastically more effective speaks either highly of Tebow or lowly of Orton.

The point of this thread, which has been brutally bastardized because it happens to mention Elway and Tebow in the same paragraph, is not that Tebow can be like Elway, but that early struggles have little prognostic value.

I am at fault for much of this Ded. Apologies and you are right.