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View Full Version : Broncos switched Franklin to the left side with Clady on Maghees big run


cutthemdown
11-08-2011, 01:11 AM
Ok I was watching the Magahee first TD the run. Not sure if anyone mentioned this already so if so my bad. But it looked like they put Franklin in on the Left side with Clady then put Clark in at RT. So they went big and got a huge run. Had we done this before. Honestly I haven't paying as much attention as I used to but I can't remember the Broncos doing that before.

If so I think people are wrong about the coaching staff not trying really hard to be creative.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/auto/09000d5d823e1d21/McGahee-s-reason-to-smile

t-diddy
11-08-2011, 01:17 AM
They were talking about it in another thread... but they were saying that Clady was moved over outside of Franklin on a couple plays, most notably on the big holding call on Clady.

Yeah, upon further review, there does seem to be some outside the box thinking. Good sign.

UberBroncoMan
11-08-2011, 05:45 AM
Good to see. Kind of wish we had Franklin at left guard to begin with. I think he'd be way better at than than blindside RT.

TheReverend
11-08-2011, 05:59 AM
They have Fells playing LT in those formations.

BIG props to the guys that noticed this (GoHAM, Kaylore, misturanderson. I was NOT one of them):

http://img830.imageshack.us/img830/8865/clady.png

(pic from misturanderson)

alkemical
11-08-2011, 06:18 AM
Fells seems to be a great utility player.

Jay3
11-08-2011, 06:24 AM
Fells is tight end in that picture.

TheReverend
11-08-2011, 06:30 AM
Fells is tight end in that picture.

http://img75.imageshack.us/img75/279/a0gl1l.jpg

The Joker
11-08-2011, 06:34 AM
Maybe he meant that his ass looked tight?

TheReverend
11-08-2011, 06:36 AM
Maybe he meant that his ass looked tight?

Lollllll.

crush17
11-08-2011, 06:37 AM
I swear I read an article that talked about this last night but I cant find it for the life of me right now.

But yeah, they were moving the tackles all over the place for sure. The line on McGahee's big run went (from right to left) Clark / Beadles / Walton / Franklin / Clady / Fells (I think).

The article talked about how they just flooded the line with blockers and it was more than the Raiders could handle, which sprung McGahee easily.

Nice work coaching staff.


EDIT: here it is: http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_19283540

TonyR
11-08-2011, 06:48 AM
McGahee, not Maghee.

Eldorado
11-08-2011, 07:40 AM
Fells is tight end in that picture.

I think that's Clady. Fells is the LEFT tackle. LEFT.

Jay3
11-08-2011, 07:44 AM
My bad, guys. The red circle around Clady had a strong power of suggestion effect on me -- I thought the red circle went along with the comment about Fells.

So they had Clady at tight end, essentially.

Eldorado
11-08-2011, 07:46 AM
My bad, guys. The red circle around Clady had a strong power of suggestion effect on me -- I thought the red circle went along with the comment about Fells.

So they had Clady at tight end, essentially.

I did too. TheRev plays dirty. You gotta watch that fvckin guy.

TheReverend
11-08-2011, 07:55 AM
My bad, guys. The red circle around Clady had a strong power of suggestion effect on me -- I thought the red circle went along with the comment about Fells.

So they had Clady at tight end, essentially.

Using his athleticism to get a solid block upfield on the backers. Very creative.

The Joker
11-08-2011, 09:07 AM
Using his athleticism to get a solid block upfield on the backers. Very creative.

One might even call it... sophisticated.

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=100020

http://i.imgur.com/0EzL4.png

enjolras
11-08-2011, 11:21 AM
My bad, guys. The red circle around Clady had a strong power of suggestion effect on me -- I thought the red circle went along with the comment about Fells.

So they had Clady at tight end, essentially.

It's an unbalanced line. Clady would not have been eligible on that play.

We can't see the far side of the field (the 11th player), but I'm guessing that Fells was eligible and therefore was still lined up as a TE as he would be the left-most offensive player on the line of scrimmage.

enjolras
11-08-2011, 11:22 AM
Fells seems to be a great utility player.

He's been a huge pickup. Put aside that he made THE big play in the Miami game, he's shown that he's smart and athletic. He can block and catch. I think he's an upgrade over Daniel Graham (as much as it pains me to say that about a Buff).

Kaylore
11-08-2011, 11:25 AM
It's an unbalanced line. Clady would not have been eligible on that play.

We can't see the far side of the field (the 11th player), but I'm guessing that Fells was eligible and therefore was still lined up as a TE as he would be the left-most offensive player on the line of scrimmage.

Tackle eligible on unbalanced line. Also you can hear the ref declare him (barely) over the crowd noise.

gyldenlove
11-08-2011, 11:30 AM
McGahee, not Maghee.

I think we should rename him.

Mogulseeker
11-08-2011, 12:52 PM
Tackle-eligible, off balanced line with two wide and two TEs and single back... it would look something like this:

Run the option out of this fomation... leave the TEs to block, then get get open. Streak the WR...

Option 1 - McGahee run
Option 2 - Tebow run
Option 3 - TE shuttle pass.
Option 4 - WR streak.... TD

This isn't that different than the plays the got Tebow/Mcgahee their huge runs. Think it would work in the NFL?

Mogulseeker
11-08-2011, 12:53 PM
Sorry, forgot my photoshop is set up for PDF's right now... you can click on the link though.

Mogulseeker
11-08-2011, 12:54 PM
This also give the far left tackle the ability to get down field to block... I would suggest drafting a huge TE or a very quick LT to fill this role.

I normally wouldn't even attempt to think about drawing up a play like this, but with Tebow, it just might work. Might as well utilize his skillset.

Dude I would love to be the Broncos coach right now with Tebow. His skillset is unconventional, but it really opens up options with line combinations and TE routes.

broncocalijohn
11-08-2011, 01:13 PM
I think we should rename him.

Im thinking Willis Notmarino. Was any of these formations used other than running plays? I would hope they can use it as a decoy to open up the wideouts. It is easy to do for a couple of plays but once film is on it and the success was huge, teams will look for that. Good to see the coaches arent just bread and butter.

MightySmurf, they link looks like it could be a goal line stance .

theAPAOps5
11-08-2011, 01:18 PM
Tackle eligible on unbalanced line. Also you can hear the ref declare him (barely) over the crowd noise.

Another way to figure out when they do this is If you go back and listen for when the ref announces that so and so is eligible. Was said a lot on Sunday and a few times the week before.

I wondered why on Sunday because you would hear it when they were talking or looking at stats and I forgot to look. Now it makes sense.

Kaylore
11-08-2011, 02:36 PM
Another way to figure out when they do this is If you go back and listen for when the ref announces that so and so is eligible. Was said a lot on Sunday and a few times the week before.

I wondered why on Sunday because you would hear it when they were talking or looking at stats and I forgot to look. Now it makes sense.

Yeah that was what I was trying to say before I raped and pillaged the Queen's English. Same thing.

razorwire77
11-08-2011, 02:45 PM
They have Fells playing LT in those formations.

BIG props to the guys that noticed this (GoHAM, Kaylore, misturanderson. I was NOT one of them):

http://img830.imageshack.us/img830/8865/clady.png

(pic from misturanderson)

That's an interesting, almost high school like formation. You basically have an unbalanced line, and create the illusion of a power running situation, then you run counter motion. It's good to see McCoy thinking of creative ways to beat the constant 7 or 8 in the box defenses that teams are going to show against young Timothy Richard. I bet the next variation will be a Tebow speed option out of the same formation. Good stuff. :thumbs: I sure as hell didn't notice the unbalanced line the first time around.

enjolras
11-08-2011, 02:45 PM
Tackle eligible on unbalanced line. Also you can hear the ref declare him (barely) over the crowd noise.

So Clady reported on that play? So the were actually running Fells at tackle...weird:)

ghwk
11-08-2011, 02:56 PM
Tackle eligible on unbalanced line. Also you can hear the ref declare him (barely) over the crowd noise.

Didn't we get penalized for this at some point in the game? I think we forgot to declare....

Dr. Broncenstein
11-08-2011, 02:59 PM
I'm ready to see a jump pass to a tackle eligible Ryan Clady. It will be most pleasing.

Kaylore
11-08-2011, 03:00 PM
Didn't we get penalized for this at some point in the game? I think we forgot to declare....

Well on that play in particular Clady held.

And yes, Enjolras, Fells was the "tackle" on this play and Clady the Y.

Jay3
11-08-2011, 03:14 PM
Tackle eligible on unbalanced line. Also you can hear the ref declare him (barely) over the crowd noise.

He gets declared because if his number, right?

The fact is that he's the third guy from center, in the tight end spot.

Although technically unbalanced, I don't consider 2 on one side, 3 on the other to be unbalanced. Because that's the basic single TE formation for the line. I consider two tight ends (two lineman on one side of the center, four on the other) to be unbalanced.

The real power of this formation is not from its unusual numbers. It's that Clady takes the traditional TE spot, and Fells fills in for him over at LT, creating a real talent/power surge on the right side.

Or am I missing a key fact here? I had a brush with fail earlier in the thread so I'm doubting my freshness at this point.

Jay3
11-08-2011, 03:17 PM
Or is that Fells reports/declares because he's in the tackle position, but is uncovered and therefore eligible.

teknic
11-08-2011, 05:00 PM
Or is that Fells reports/declares because he's in the tackle position, but is uncovered and therefore eligible.

Fells is just playing LT here for the run. With the option, it doesn't matter if the DE gets by Fells, as long as he chips him. If Tebow sees the end pursue the run from the backside, he hands the ball off. If the end stays back, or crashes to the inside of the line, Tebow keeps it, and the DE has been taken out of the play. Since most of the runs out of this formation will be to McGahee, having the bigger body and athleticism of Clady to the strong side at TE will really help our running game get some big yardage plays. If we keep a blocker and Fells on the left side, if will open up bootlegs to the left, and quick passes to Fells to beat the inevitable LB blitzes to contain Tebow's running.

Fells is at LT and therefore ineligible on this play, but Clady has reported as eligible so he can run down field as a tight end.

crush17
11-08-2011, 05:47 PM
Great football discussion going on here.

The fact is that Tebow does offer up a variety of packages that most QB's don't.
I am thrilled to see the coaches working hard to showcase his talents and not trying to pigeon hole this offense.

I just hope we keep it up. Can't wait to see us take it to the Chiefs this Sunday :)

Jay3
11-08-2011, 06:01 PM
but Clady has reported as eligible so he can run down field as a tight end.

And he only has to report because of his number, right? If he was a tight end like Fells doing the exact same job, he would just be eligible, period. No reporting in?

serious hops
11-08-2011, 06:02 PM
I haven't had a chance to go back and re-watch, but didn't we also bring in Chris Clark as an extra blocker a few times?

Jay3
11-08-2011, 06:03 PM
I remember them running a play to the left with Fells and Tebow in the Detroit game. It was going to be a roll left with Fells on a short pattern -- chipping the DE, releasing for a pass. Tebow can either tuck it if the DE stays with Fells, toss it if the DE comes in.

But Fells managed to accomplish neither -- he sort of got blown up by the DE, fell down, and the DE was all over Tebow and Fells was not available.

It's hard to tell what the design was, but that looked like the play. Another good idea out of that formation.

Jay3
11-08-2011, 06:05 PM
I haven't had a chance to go back and re-watch, but didn't we also bring in Chris Clark as an extra blocker a few times?

I think that is the premise of the OP -- moving Franklin over to the other sie, and backfilling with Clark.

gyldenlove
11-08-2011, 06:55 PM
Didn't we get penalized for this at some point in the game? I think we forgot to declare....

Yup, 75 forgot to declare on a play when we went heavy to the right.

Broncoman13
11-09-2011, 05:57 AM
The unbalanced line allows the Broncos to dictate the defensive set... Basically, it forces the D to commit an extra player on the overloaded side. What was interesting was on some plays you would see the Guard on the WS pull and give a plus one scenario. Beadles pulled on one play and was making the block 5 yards out 2nd level but on a DB. Not super innovative as this is common in college and on down, but creative in adopting it into the NFL. Shanny used to be the master of dictating to defenses how they would cover certain plays. He would then run the same play from different formations. I saw some of the same thing in our run game on Sunday. A very good sign for sure.

cutthemdown
11-09-2011, 06:57 AM
I haven't had a chance to go back and re-watch, but didn't we also bring in Chris Clark as an extra blocker a few times?

Yes when Franklin moved to the left side Clark went in at RT

RunSilentRunDeep
11-09-2011, 07:18 AM
On McGahee's 60-yard TD, Franklin played LT. The line was Clark (RT), Kuper (RG), Walton (C), Beadles (LG) Franklin (LT) and Clady (TE).

Old Dude
11-09-2011, 08:08 AM
Best thread we've had here for awhile.

Looks to me like they've decided to install numerous option-style plays to take advantage of Tebow's talents, and we can probably expect to see a few more tweaks and twists every week.

This is going to be entertaining and interesting, but I really wonder if the kid can take the kind of pounding this is gonna entail. 3 games in, he already looks like Rocky Balboa.

TonyR
11-09-2011, 08:32 AM
This is going to be entertaining and interesting, but I really wonder if the kid can take the kind of pounding this is gonna entail.

This is my concern, and I don't see it raised very often. This is fun but can you really build a longer term offense around this? My hunch is you cannot, and therefore Tebow has to become a considerably better passer. Elway knows this, but it appears that a lot of fans don't.

Old Dude
11-09-2011, 08:35 AM
There's a good Denver Post article on this very issue this morning.

bendog
11-09-2011, 08:42 AM
Well on that play in particular Clady held.

And yes, Enjolras, Fells was the "tackle" on this play and Clady the Y.

LOL, I recall replaying that penalty several times going WTF? Where is Clady?

alkemical
11-09-2011, 08:45 AM
http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_19286171

Broncos' Willis McGahee learns to love read-option attack

Read more: Broncos' Willis McGahee learns to love read-option attack - The Denver Post http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_19286171#ixzz1dDv1SKuf
Read The Denver Post's Terms of Use of its content: http://www.denverpost.com/termsofuse

TonyR
11-09-2011, 09:18 AM
There's a good Denver Post article on this very issue this morning.

Yes, this is a worthwhile read.


There are two substantial reasons most NFL coaches cite on why the option has not been seen in the NFL on a regular basis as much as the Broncos ran it Sunday...

Read more: Broncos deciding whether to go option full-time - The Denver Post http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_19294314#ixzz1dE3ZLphV
Read The Denver Post's Terms of Use of its content: http://www.denverpost.com/termsofuse

TheDave
11-09-2011, 09:21 AM
Best thread we've had here for awhile.

Looks to me like they've decided to install numerous option-style plays to take advantage of Tebow's talents, and we can probably expect to see a few more tweaks and twists every week.

This is going to be entertaining and interesting, but I really wonder if the kid can take the kind of pounding this is gonna entail. 3 games in, he already looks like Rocky Balboa.

For the short term I think he can... The kid is an absolute horse.

Unfortunately, with his incredible swings in accuracy, he has to. As a side note: I have never in 30 years of waching the NFL seen anything like it. One play he is threading the needle followed by an alley-oop attempt, followed by one to Greek on the near side lines. For now, while he is still wrestling with his accuracy demons, he has to keep this option ball going and they are going to have to continue to add to it.

One thing I read here was the idea of going all big against these undersized speed defenses. Seriously interesting concept, and a possible short cut to the re-building process. Add that to the creativity we are seeing here in the running game... who knows, we could surprise some very good teams simply due to our style of play.

Old Dude
11-09-2011, 09:47 AM
... One thing I read here was the idea of going all big against these undersized speed defenses. Seriously interesting concept, and a possible short cut to the re-building process. Add that to the creativity we are seeing here in the running game... who knows, we could surprise some very good teams simply due to our style of play.

True. Sometimes there are advantages in going against the grain.

Of course, if we do have some success with this - and then Tebow goes down - we don't have anyone else who can run that style of offense.

I suspect this is why Philly picked up Vince Young to back up Vick. It's probably the closest parallel at this point.

cutthemdown
11-09-2011, 09:52 AM
I think you can't worry about the hits to Tebow. If he can't stay healthy then the problem solved itself right? We draft a new QB because Tebow has a broken arm or 20 concussions. If Tebow can't run he can't win. His style will have to allow him to absorb 15 hits a game and not break down.

So he really should learn that defenses will want to hit him. Sometimes he should surprise them and not be Tebow, get out of bounds and get some late hits. Got a couple already and I think he can get even more.

I do shudder to think what a team like the Ravens would do to a read option attack. Not sure you could do that with a Ray Lewis on the field. I think he would pick the QB, let Suggs pick the RB and just tackle them both every play lol.

cutthemdown
11-09-2011, 09:53 AM
True. Sometimes there are advantages in going against the grain.

Of course, if we do have some success with this - and then Tebow goes down - we don't have anyone else who can run that style of offense.

I suspect this is why Philly picked up Vince Young to back up Vick. It's probably the closest parallel at this point.

Thats why i was saying Broncos need another qb with good legs even if they love Tebow. Either way you need more qbs with athleticism.

TheDave
11-09-2011, 09:59 AM
True. Sometimes there are advantages in going against the grain.

Of course, if we do have some success with this - and then Tebow goes down - we don't have anyone else who can run that style of offense.

I suspect this is why Philly picked up Vince Young to back up Vick. It's probably the closest parallel at this point.

Yep... If the team was to really commit to this next season (I still do not believe this is the best long term solution, but if...) we would have to grab a couple of option QBs to back the kid up. Additionally, with a couple of other QB's to throw out there we could keep tebow from taking all of the hits he is currentely absorbing.

Something the article brought up was the speed athletcism difference between the O and D lines... FWIW, I don't think that matters. The easiest way to counter speed on defense is with a plodding/bruising running game.

bendog
11-09-2011, 10:00 AM
obviously they're adjusting to what Tebow can do best, but that doesn't mean they are married to it and still don't want Tebow to get better in the pocket. He's gonna have a pretty short career if not.

TonyR
11-09-2011, 10:02 AM
I think you can't worry about the hits to Tebow.

Of course you do. He's your QB, most important player on the team. You invest a lot of resources into his development and success. This is why the primary issue here is his progression as a passing QB. Not only will this help his longetivity and make him a better QB but it will enhance the effectiveness and threat of the zone read/option type plays. The more the defense has to account for the better, right? Imagine if Brady or Brees or Manning could bust off a few big runs on you a game! I'm not suggesting Tebow has to become a passer of that status, but seriously consider the implications!

TheDave
11-09-2011, 10:02 AM
obviously they're adjusting to what Tebow can do best, but that doesn't mean they are married to it and still don't want Tebow to get better in the pocket. He's gonna have a pretty short career if not.

But can he last just long enough to learn how to consistently throw the ball?

...and to be honest lets say he lasts as long as a running back. 6-7 more years of stability at the QB position isn't the worst thing.

cutthemdown
11-09-2011, 10:04 AM
Holy **** I just realized we are actually talking football. Also I wonder how Orton would play if he came in after the defense had prepared all week for a read option. Not like these guys aren't pros and able to run different formations. Probably going back to a pocket passer and regular handoffs not something these players would struggle a ton with.

But the defense might not like it.

Also I think Broncos should think about waiting on the Chiefs to break it out. Pick whatever Chiefs personnel grouping you think it would work best against, wait until they are on the field then break it out no huddle. Something like that. Give it the best chance to work.

No doubt KC starts game geared up for it.

cutthemdown
11-09-2011, 10:08 AM
Of course you do. He's your QB, most important player on the team. You invest a lot of resources into his development and success. This is why the primary issue here is his progression as a passing QB. Not only will this help his longetivity and make him a better QB but it will enhance the effectiveness and threat of the zone read/option type plays. The more the defense has to account for the better, right? Imagine if Brady or Brees or Manning could bust off a few big runs on you a game! I'm not suggesting Tebow has to become a passer of that status, but seriously consider the implications!

Watching how his ball flys, his slow release, not sure he would ever get good enough to not at least run 10 times a game. I agree with what your saying that you want to limit hits, but i don't think he will ever be a 4-5 hits a game player. He won't win like that because he will never throw like Drew Brees and Manning.

Tebow didn't throw darts in college, and he doesn't now. The way his ball sometimes comes out a little palmed, then wobbles is just probably going to stay. At this point I don't see stuff like that changing much. He can get smarter with where to go with the ball, where his WR will be, how to read defenses.

To win though, he will always take off and take those hits. If he can't survive then the experiement is a failure. Thats why either way we should draft a QB.

TheReverend
11-09-2011, 10:08 AM
But can he last just long enough to learn how to consistently throw the ball?

...and to be honest lets say he lasts as long as a running back. 6-7 more years of stability at the QB position isn't the worst thing.

I've mentioned before, I'd much rather he take these shoulder sideline shots than the sacks and hits Cutler takes in Chicago

BroncsCheer
11-09-2011, 10:10 AM
Holy **** I just realized we are actually talking football. Also I wonder how Orton would play if he came in after the defense had prepared all week for a read option. Not like these guys aren't pros and able to run different formations. Probably going back to a pocket passer and regular handoffs not something these players would struggle a ton with.

But the defense might not like it.

Also I think Broncos should think about waiting on the Chiefs to break it out. Pick whatever Chiefs personnel grouping you think it would work best against, wait until they are on the field then break it out no huddle. Something like that. Give it the best chance to work.

No doubt KC starts game geared up for it.

wait ... are you saying the team should put a pocket sloth package in to keep the queefs off balance?

not quite sure what to think about that . ..

bendog
11-09-2011, 10:11 AM
But can he last just long enough to learn how to consistently throw the ball?

...and to be honest lets say he lasts as long as a running back. 6-7 more years of stability at the QB position isn't the worst thing.

Maybe it's just me but I really think he's improved in each three games. He picked up a blitz beautifully and made a nifty little toss. Assuming he continues improving and becomes a truly competent NFL qb capable of winning a lombardi with a good team, I think it'd just be natural if he ran less as his body became less able to take the beat down. But if he improves throught the season, I think Den is not looking at qb in the draft or FA ... unless its a Tavarious Jackson or Senneca Wallace type guy.

TheDave
11-09-2011, 10:14 AM
I've mentioned before, I'd much rather he take these shoulder sideline shots than the sacks and hits Cutler takes in Chicago

I agree some of the shots he takes are no big deal... but as the article said 272 hits this season alone will add up. As his passing game improves he can limits some of these, but I think he's always going to need to run to some degree.

teknic
11-09-2011, 10:25 AM
I've mentioned before, I'd much rather he take these shoulder sideline shots than the sacks and hits Cutler takes in Chicago

This.

In the past 3 weeks, most of the hard hits Tebow has taken have been on sacks in the pocket, not on runs down the field. When he runs, he does a good job of getting to the sideline, he just needs to step out quicker instead of going for that extra couple yards if he wants to avoid contact (which I don't think is necessary, he ran the LB over in the Miami game).

We're only asking him to run ~10 times a game, likely less once he becomes more comfortable passing. He has shown that he's not going to take huge hits on runs, so I think he can definitely hold up.

In the pocket, he's taken huge hits after the pass (some for penalties, more should have been penalties) and on sacks. Let him get out into space and protect himself.

TheDave
11-09-2011, 10:28 AM
Maybe it's just me but I really think he's improved in each three games. He picked up a blitz beautifully and made a nifty little toss. Assuming he continues improving and becomes a truly competent NFL qb capable of winning a lombardi with a good team, I think it'd just be natural if he ran less as his body became less able to take the beat down. But if he improves throught the season, I think Den is not looking at qb in the draft or FA ... unless its a Tavarious Jackson or Senneca Wallace type guy.

I have no idea if he is doing anything better or worse than the time before. He is so damned unconventional, I have a hard time judging him.

Mechanics... god help us
Accuracy... 50/50
Leadership... :thumbs:
decision making... typical of his experience
running the spread option in the NFL... so far so good
running a Conventional NFL offense... Ugly, very ugly
Win/Loss... .500 QB on one of the worst teams I have ever seen.

and because of the last one he gets to keep this ball rolling...

TheReverend
11-09-2011, 10:32 AM
I agree some of the shots he takes are no big deal... but as the article said 272 hits this season alone will add up. As his passing game improves he can limits some of these, but I think he's always going to need to run to some degree.

Well he's also the size of a linebacker and 272 hits is 7-8 games worth for them... I'd like to see a smaller number but he can take it. He's played on a broken leg before after all

TheDave
11-09-2011, 10:37 AM
Well he's also the size of a linebacker and 272 hits is 7-8 games worth for them... I'd like to see a smaller number but he can take it. He's played on a broken leg before after all

Hey I'm all for it. If they think they can run a full on nfl spread option for the rest of the season... run it until the wheels fall off. For at least the next few seasons he can take the hits.

Like has been mentioned by others, maybe we catch a passing league asleep at the wheel.

Jay3
11-09-2011, 10:44 AM
I think you back Tebow up with one traditional pocket passer (maybe a mobile athletic guy, but shade toward the conventional), and one highly athletic guy like Seneca Wallace, Brad Smith, Joe Webb, etc. And you're developing those guys also, to become more complete.

But in any given situation, you have either one repped and ready to come in. And if you have to finish out a season with them, you go with the one that is the best (in your opinion), and emphasize the parts of the playbook that go to his strengths.

Sort of a "right handed reliever and left handed reliever" approach. And Tebow continues to work at being strong on all of it.

bendog
11-09-2011, 10:49 AM
not to be the naysayer, cause I'm not against it at all, but den doesn't win that game w/o palmer throwing three picks. I think the advantage is that the option effectively takes away the defense's advantage in run defense of 8 in the box. (or 7 if it's split with 3 wideouts). Better yet, if Tebow gets a few good runs, it puts pressure on the second safety to move up. All this opens up the deep pass, which is Tebow's best throw.

It fits Fox's preference to have less than a 2-1 pass/run ratio, but accomplishes pretty much the same thing. And since Den doesn't have a decent 2 tailback tandum, it solves that problem too.

Long term? Come on, after the kid starts getting laid will he have the stanima for this, and for God's sake does anyone think he can take the abuse on the field and at home that he'll get after he finally gets married?

Kaylore
11-09-2011, 10:56 AM
KC ran their way all the way to the AFC West division win running against these tiny defenses.

Jay3
11-09-2011, 10:59 AM
not to be the naysayer, cause I'm not against it at all, but den doesn't win that game w/o palmer throwing three picks.

But it ended as a blowout. I don't see how you can be sure it goes the other way without picks.

Who knows -- Tebow might have had more of those crisp drives in him, like he opened up the second half with.

Like he finished the Miami game with. Like he finished the Detroit game with (when the game was out of reach).

bendog
11-09-2011, 11:11 AM
But it ended as a blowout. I don't see how you can be sure it goes the other way without picks.

Who knows -- Tebow might have had more of those crisp drives in him, like he opened up the second half with.

Like he finished the Miami game with. Like he finished the Detroit game with (when the game was out of reach).

Oak actually had more yards offense. I'm not bagging on Tebow at all. Rather, Oak shot themselves in the foot, because not many teams can win a game with a qb throwing 3 interceptions. I just tried to say I'm not looking at playoffs in any way other than the AFC West seems to be a contest to see which teams suck worst.

Old Dude
11-09-2011, 11:36 AM
I think if you asked Raiders fans, they'd be a lot more upset about the 300 rushing yards than the Palmer picks, the punt return, or even the dumb penalties (which is practically a trademark out there.)

If Tebow was a guy who had zero passing ability, I think we'd be headed for a dead end. Like TheDave said, he's erratic as hell, but he does show bursts of talent as a passer. I'm sure the coaching staff is going to try its best to help him improve on that. I don't think anyone really knows where the ceiling is or how long it will take, but why not? What else do they have to do with the rest of season at this point?

When it's all said and done, they can sit back and evaluate the whole thing. At this point, I suspect Denver's top priorities in the next off-season will remain on the defense, which still needs a major talent infusion regardless of who's behind center.

bendog
11-09-2011, 11:59 AM
I think if you asked Raiders fans, they'd be a lot more upset about the 300 rushing yards than the Palmer picks, the punt return, or even the dumb penalties (which is practically a trademark out there.)

If Tebow was a guy who had zero passing ability, I think we'd be headed for a dead end. Like TheDave said, he's erratic as hell, but he does show bursts of talent as a passer. I'm sure the coaching staff is going to try its best to help him improve on that. I don't think anyone really knows where the ceiling is or how long it will take, but why not? What else do they have to do with the rest of season at this point?

When it's all said and done, they can sit back and evaluate the whole thing. At this point, I suspect Denver's top priorities in the next off-season will remain on the defense, which still needs a major talent infusion regardless of who's behind center.

That's sort of what I was trying to say. I'm not giving it up to Tebow yet, but QB may not be the position with the least talent on the team.

TheReverend
11-09-2011, 12:21 PM
KC ran their way all the way to the AFC West division win running against these tiny defenses.

Wif a tiny wittle back

crush17
11-09-2011, 12:57 PM
Oak actually had more yards offense. I'm not bagging on Tebow at all. Rather, Oak shot themselves in the foot, because not many teams can win a game with a qb throwing 3 interceptions. I just tried to say I'm not looking at playoffs in any way other than the AFC West seems to be a contest to see which teams suck worst.

Uh, no, they didnt.

bendog
11-09-2011, 01:04 PM
Uh, no, they didnt.

uh, yes they did

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/gameflash/2011/11/06/4520_teamstats.html

Old Dude
11-09-2011, 01:17 PM
I think that one of the more interesting questions is whether the Raiders were just caught by surprise or whether they were out-executed.

Seymour stated after the game that they weren't at all surprised by the option game, that they practiced against it all week, and that it was a failure of execution.

If that's really true, then maybe the NFL's almost universal shift to pass-defense as a priority could lead to some similar results down the road. If not, then it's just a question of when we run out of gimmicks and twists.

Stay tuned!

TheReverend
11-09-2011, 01:21 PM
But it ended as a blowout. I don't see how you can be sure it goes the other way without picks.

Who knows -- Tebow might have had more of those crisp drives in him, like he opened up the second half with.

Like he finished the Miami game with. Like he finished the Detroit game with (when the game was out of reach).

Not to mention handing them a TD with the fumbled punt...

Jay3
11-09-2011, 01:29 PM
I'd like to see how all this "they know it is coming and will prepare for it" analysis applies to regular run plays. Isn't it always the case that the opposing team watches film of regular old run plays? Does running the ball depend on some huge element of surprise?

Isn't running the ball more about toughness, talent, and flawless execution than "surprise?"

To read some of these posts, you'd think a team will never be able to run the ball by handing off to the tailback.

Rohirrim
11-09-2011, 01:36 PM
I think that one of the more interesting questions is whether the Raiders were just caught by surprise or whether they were out-executed.

Seymour stated after the game that they weren't at all surprised by the option game, that they practiced against it all week, and that it was a failure of execution.

If that's really true, then maybe the NFL's almost universal shift to pass-defense as a priority could lead to some similar results down the road. If not, then it's just a question of when we run out of gimmicks and twists.

Stay tuned!

Whatever the truth was about last week, Romeo Crenell will have no excuse this week. Let's see if he can do anything about it.

I also question running the QB so much. It's all well and good until somebody like James Harrison gets an open shot at your QB.

TonyR
11-09-2011, 02:21 PM
I think that one of the more interesting questions is whether the Raiders were just caught by surprise or whether they were out-executed.

Seymour stated after the game that they weren't at all surprised by the option game, that they practiced against it all week, and that it was a failure of execution.


Sorry if already posted...

ESPN’s Trent Dilfer, who will be a guest on PFT Live Wednesday, pointed out that the Raiders defensive ends, linebackers, and safeties were wildly undisciplined on defense. His word was “TERRIBLE.” It reminded me of the Patriots defense when they first saw the Wildcat against Miami in 2008.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/11/09/willis-mcgahee-has-warmed-up-the-read-option-attack/

Jay3
11-09-2011, 02:47 PM
Sorry if already posted...

ESPN’s Trent Dilfer, who will be a guest on PFT Live Wednesday, pointed out that the Raiders defensive ends, linebackers, and safeties were wildly undisciplined on defense. His word was “TERRIBLE.” It reminded me of the Patriots defense when they first saw the Wildcat against Miami in 2008.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/11/09/willis-mcgahee-has-warmed-up-the-read-option-attack/

That might explain the 300 yards, the two long runs by McGahee for touchdowns, and the three huge runs by Tebow.

ANd here I thought the Raiders did everything they could and the Broncos had discovered a magic formula to break off 30 yard runs.

bombay
11-09-2011, 02:47 PM
When McGahee cleared the line, he didn't see another defender for 20 yards. It reminded me of the 2001 Colorado/Nebraska game when Chris Brown and Bobby Purify just had to get behind Victor Rogers and Andre Gurode and blast through the line into open space all the way to the end zone.

Rohirrim
11-09-2011, 03:25 PM
When McGahee cleared the line, he didn't see another defender for 20 yards. It reminded me of the 2001 Colorado/Nebraska game when Chris Brown and Bobby Purify just had to get behind Victor Rogers and Andre Gurode and blast through the line into open space all the way to the end zone.

Ahhhh! No doubt one of the most fun games I've ever watched. :~ohyah!:

bombay
11-09-2011, 03:34 PM
Ahhhh! No doubti one of the most fun games I've ever watched. :~ohyah!:

I was there! It was great. Not surprisingly, the bcs saw fit to put Nebraska the 'national championship' game against Miami. Coming directly off a 62-36 pounding. What a system.

broncosteven
11-09-2011, 03:59 PM
Ok I was watching the Magahee first TD the run. Not sure if anyone mentioned this already so if so my bad. But it looked like they put Franklin in on the Left side with Clady then put Clark in at RT. So they went big and got a huge run. Had we done this before. Honestly I haven't paying as much attention as I used to but I can't remember the Broncos doing that before.

If so I think people are wrong about the coaching staff not trying really hard to be creative.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/auto/09000d5d823e1d21/McGahee-s-reason-to-smile

A couple weeks ago I remember seeing Clark getting up off the field and not sure why he was in. Does anyone know if they were running the same formation prior to this week? I had to be at least 2 weeks ago but it was surely after Orton got benched.

Old Dude
11-09-2011, 04:00 PM
Gotta assume that the Chiefs won't go into this week's game overconfident after what happened to them last week.

If they get T-boned, their staff is well-done.