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TonyR
11-07-2011, 01:15 PM
I hate Jay Cutler. But being surrounded by obnoxious Philadelphia fans I hate the Eagles even more. So I'm a Bears fan tonight. Go Jay! (unfortunately I think the Eagles win and cover, with Cutler getting sacked at least 5 times and throwing at least 2 INT's...)

TheReverend
11-07-2011, 01:20 PM
Let's go Cutler!

Popps
11-07-2011, 01:38 PM
Yes, this is a very difficult game to figure out who to root against. I think I might have to pull for Jay over dog-killer. It's only right. Jay was born douchey. It's not his fault, really.

http://www.google.com/imgres?q=jay+cutler+GQ&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=ZZs&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&biw=1579&bih=730&tbm=isch&tbnid=4KSmgYT_lexWNM:&imgrefurl=http://katemiddleton.onsugar.com/jay-cutler-wallpaper-16332097&docid=S9yJ9Oyxa6FEOM&imgurl=http://media.onsugar.com/files/2011/05/18/5/1632/16329924/e3/gq-jc.jpg&w=500&h=600&ei=hE-4TuLwHpToiAKyiPzOBA&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=1134&vpy=120&dur=723&hovh=246&hovw=205&tx=110&ty=148&sig=100994514158042124404&page=1&tbnh=156&tbnw=154&start=0&ndsp=22&ved=1t:429,r:5,s:0

Dagmar
11-07-2011, 01:40 PM
After the primetime mongfests so far this season I am just hoping for a good game.

OABB
11-07-2011, 01:42 PM
My butthurt over Jay is almost gone. I am starting to hope he does well. Although, I know he is a munson right now, he may decide some day to improve and respect the game plan, and I will be happy for him.

If he continues to blow it in big games and throw into quadruple coverage, I will kind of lament the wasted talent.

Crushaholic
11-07-2011, 01:50 PM
Go Bears!

DenverBroncosJM
11-07-2011, 01:51 PM
I think the bears win this easily.

edit: bears defense and special teams makes this an easy win for them

Popps
11-07-2011, 01:52 PM
After the primetime mongfests so far this season I am just hoping for a good game.

There have been great prime-time games this year. Catch the one last night?
There have been some stinkers, though.

GreatBronco16
11-07-2011, 01:54 PM
Screw Jaybee Jay Jay. I hope they tear him a new ahole.:flower:

Tombstone RJ
11-07-2011, 01:59 PM
I'd like to see Chicago win this game. I hate the Vick/Eagles hype. I love it when all the talking heads are wrong about a team.

jhns
11-07-2011, 02:01 PM
Cutler > McFans

GreatBronco16
11-07-2011, 02:01 PM
McFans > jhns



:kiss:

edog24
11-07-2011, 02:17 PM
I predict lots of frowning with emo.

Kaylore
11-07-2011, 02:21 PM
Let's go Cutler!

Neg rep! :kiss:

Kaylore
11-07-2011, 02:22 PM
I would rather suck on Cutler's balls than read one more post by MacGruder.

chadta
11-07-2011, 02:22 PM
i hope jay throws 6 ints, but the D shuts up down, so that a dog killer fumble return touchdown is enough to win the game

or a stadium implosion

Miss I.
11-07-2011, 02:24 PM
I would rather suck on Cutler's balls than read one more post by MacGruder.

I already did that.

umm....didn't read one more post by MacGruder I mean. :kiss:

TheReverend
11-07-2011, 02:27 PM
Neg rep! :kiss:

http://memearchive.net/memerial.net/426/noooooooooo.jpg

How could you do this to me?!?! You know how much respect I have for the reputation system! Noooooooooooooooooooooo!














...but seriously which sacks were Tebow's fault again? 8')

jhns
11-07-2011, 02:27 PM
I would rather suck on Cutler's balls

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/QG23BGERdC8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

BroncsCheer
11-07-2011, 02:39 PM
The Eagles will be too much for the Bears D, but Chicago will score a lot of points.

Eagles in a shootout

38 - 27

baja
11-07-2011, 02:40 PM
I would rather suck on Cutler's balls than read one more post by MacGruder.

You point would be more dramatic if you compared a MacGruder post reading to something you didn't like doing.

;D

elsid13
11-07-2011, 02:54 PM
I would rather suck on Cutler's balls than read one more post by MacGruder.

And you wonder why people think you want to sleep with Kuper.... ;D

UberBroncoMan
11-07-2011, 04:33 PM
Indeed. I hate both teams.

OBF1
11-07-2011, 04:36 PM
I hate Jay Cutler. But being surrounded by obnoxious Philadelphia fans I hate the Eagles even more. So I'm a Bears fan tonight. Go Jay! (unfortunately I think the Eagles win and cover, with Cutler getting sacked at least 5 times and throwing at least 2 INT's...)

I hope your liver falls off

broncofan2438
11-07-2011, 04:49 PM
Yea, **** Cutler. Hope he gets drilled

Blueflame
11-07-2011, 05:52 PM
Bears score first... not a bad looking drive.

CEH
11-07-2011, 06:05 PM
Heads up Cutler haters
Might not want to watch it as Gruden will gush over Cutler all night

Bronx33
11-07-2011, 06:21 PM
Heads up Cutler haters
Might not want to watch it as Gruden will gush over Cutler all night

I really hate when he gets going on a player.

Bronx33
11-07-2011, 06:22 PM
I would rather suck on Cutler's balls than read one more post by MacGruder.



Quit holding back tell us how you really feel..

BroncoDoug
11-07-2011, 06:26 PM
Bears are going to lay a whooping...

Dedhed
11-07-2011, 06:29 PM
Heads up Cutler haters
Might not want to watch it as Gruden will gush over Cutler all night

This crew is brutal.

Turd_Ferguson
11-07-2011, 06:31 PM
I would rather suck on Cutler's balls than read one more post by MacGruder.

lol funny

Lycan
11-07-2011, 06:36 PM
Cutler out at WR on a play there, could we see a Sanchez?


https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-aHCw3K9xLcM/Trb5JCjQiBI/AAAAAAAAADk/ltbWX5iUinI/s620/Sanchez%252520flinch.gif

That One Guy
11-07-2011, 06:44 PM
If Urlacher can cover Maclin... you're doing something wrong.

cabronco
11-07-2011, 06:54 PM
With good protection JC hitting his receivers pretty well 2nite. Though I've never seen a more aloof football player.

Sassy
11-07-2011, 06:55 PM
Ha! Fumble...

DBroncos4life
11-07-2011, 06:56 PM
Man I haven't seen a QB throw a football like Cutler since Elway.

That One Guy
11-07-2011, 07:01 PM
Man I haven't seen a QB throw a football like Cutler since Elway.

Dramatics (and RZ turnovers) aside, he's a damn good QB.

Sassy
11-07-2011, 07:01 PM
As much as I hate to say it..Cmon Bears!

DBroncos4life
11-07-2011, 07:07 PM
Dramatics (and RZ turnovers) aside, he's a damn good QB.

Not to many posters will admit to that around here. :thumbs:

BroncoDoug
11-07-2011, 07:07 PM
wth, dude was pushed into Cutler... how is that a penalty

baja
11-07-2011, 07:08 PM
If that was roughing the passer on Cutler than Tebow should have had about 7 calls for that.

BroncoDoug
11-07-2011, 07:09 PM
Thats kind of messed up Forte is wanting to get paid, only has 2 rushing TDs and they give it to Barber down at the goal line... cmon, throw Forte a bone

Lycan
11-07-2011, 07:13 PM
Was Maclin's mysterious illness in the off-season the spontaneous production of butter from the palms of his hands?

If so I don't think he has recovered yet.

Garcia Bronco
11-07-2011, 07:20 PM
Thats kind of messed up Forte is wanting to get paid, only has 2 rushing TDs and they give it to Barber down at the goal line... cmon, throw Forte a bone

My fantasy team liked the way it worked out.

Garcia Bronco
11-07-2011, 07:21 PM
If that was roughing the passer on Cutler than Tebow should have had about 7 calls for that.

This

t-diddy
11-07-2011, 07:35 PM
Seen a couple of rollouts from both teams... wish we would try that now and again.

Bronx33
11-07-2011, 07:52 PM
this is getting funny

TheReverend
11-07-2011, 07:58 PM
Roy Williams ****ing blows lol

That One Guy
11-07-2011, 07:58 PM
That's a nice deep ball.

That One Guy
11-07-2011, 07:59 PM
Roy Williams ****ing blows lol

LOL and Dallas gave up a LOT to figure that out.

He was traded by Millen, right? I wonder how Jerry likes knowing he's the only person in the NFL to be outsmarted by the GM of the century.

broncogary
11-07-2011, 08:05 PM
That's a nice deep ball.

That's what she said last night! :~ohyah!:

DBroncos4life
11-07-2011, 08:05 PM
Roy Williams ****ing blows lol

I really don't get why they don't sign TO. They are going to need all the help they can get to make the playoffs.

That One Guy
11-07-2011, 08:05 PM
That's what she said last night! :~ohyah!:

LOL

No she didn't...

BroncsCheer
11-07-2011, 08:08 PM
I really don't get why they don't sign TO. They are going to need all the help they can get to make the playoffs.

something to do with this maybe?

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57319618-504083/arrest-warrant-issued-for-former-nfl-star-terrell-owens-over-missed-court-date/

broncogary
11-07-2011, 08:09 PM
LOL

No she didn't...

I was talking about what she said to me. :kiss:

DBroncos4life
11-07-2011, 08:11 PM
something to do with this maybe?

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57319618-504083/arrest-warrant-issued-for-former-nfl-star-terrell-owens-over-missed-court-date/

Not even that big of a deal for a famous person.

That One Guy
11-07-2011, 08:20 PM
I was talking about what she said to me. :kiss:

I knew it wasn't to me. She never wakes up for me. I just know she's alive because she occasionally tries to roll over.

One that talks? Gosh that must be awkward...

bronco militia
11-07-2011, 08:20 PM
cutler****er looking sharp again tonight

**** YOU JOSH MCDANIELS

edog24
11-07-2011, 08:22 PM
Beautiful TD pass.

That One Guy
11-07-2011, 08:23 PM
Gruden gushing over Cutler is what Macgruder must sound like if you actually talked to him about Tebow.

It's horribly obnoxious.

Bob's your Information Minister
11-07-2011, 08:23 PM
Cutler > any Broncos QB you will have in the next 25 years.

broncogary
11-07-2011, 08:24 PM
I knew it wasn't to me. She never wakes up for me. I just know she's alive because she occasionally tries to roll over.

One that talks? Gosh that must be awkward...

Yeah, she gets really pissed when I start rolling my hand for her to get to the point. :~ohyah!:

Bronx33
11-07-2011, 08:24 PM
Cutler > any cheaps QB you will have in the next 25 years.


That goes for the cheaps too.

Bronx33
11-07-2011, 08:26 PM
Gruden gushing over Cutler is what Macgruder must sound like if you actually talked to him about Tebow.

It's horribly obnoxious.



Gruden doesnt have dinner with a cardboard cut out of tebow every night though.

Bronx33
11-07-2011, 08:26 PM
boy that was half assed..

That One Guy
11-07-2011, 08:27 PM
LOL

That's what happens when you let a kicker play football.

TDmvp
11-07-2011, 08:27 PM
LOL @ Philly . That was just insane.

Lycan
11-07-2011, 08:27 PM
Maybe they should check if their punter can throw 6 yards before attempting a fake.

bronco militia
11-07-2011, 08:28 PM
tebow punting for the eagles tonight?

bronco militia
11-07-2011, 08:29 PM
I kid I kid!

edog24
11-07-2011, 08:30 PM
Do these guys gush over every completed pass?

Lycan
11-07-2011, 08:31 PM
I kid I kid!

He did play with Tebow at Florida. He learned at the feet of the master.

That One Guy
11-07-2011, 08:32 PM
Eagles defender lets Forte pick up 9 trying to punch the ball out. Retard.

TDmvp
11-07-2011, 08:32 PM
Jay's skill set is insane.

bowtown
11-07-2011, 08:33 PM
I really hate when Cutler plays well.

Blueflame
11-07-2011, 08:33 PM
He did play with Tebow at Florida. He learned at the feet of the master.

The little-known Tebow effect? :P

That One Guy
11-07-2011, 08:34 PM
Jay's skill set is insane.

We know. Gruden's been beating it while gushing over him all night.

TDmvp
11-07-2011, 08:35 PM
We know. Gruden's been beating it while gushing over him all night.




LOL I've been watching with the sound down and playing Xbox... But yea Gruden gushes over people till it's sickening.

Lycan
11-07-2011, 08:35 PM
We know. Gruden's been beating it while gushing over him all night.

Gruden does that with everyone though. If Tebow was out there he would be slobbering on about concrete cyanide and such.

bowtown
11-07-2011, 08:35 PM
We know. Gruden's been beating it while gushing over him all night.

Gruden beats it and gushes all over everyone. I thought he was going to cream his pants when he was talking about the amazing shot the camera man got a few minutes ago.

He's ridiculous but I love him.

maher_tyler
11-07-2011, 08:36 PM
JC can't complete a perfect pass with guys in his face, he sucks!

cabronco
11-07-2011, 08:36 PM
Do these guys gush over every completed pass?

Yes while their pants are pulled down to their knees doing a circle jerk, or triangular jerk.

That One Guy
11-07-2011, 08:37 PM
Gruden beats it and gushes all over everyone. I thought he was going to cream his pants when he was talking about the amazing shot the camera man got a few minutes ago.

He's ridiculous but I love him.

LOL

That did take it to a new level.

BroncsCheer
11-07-2011, 08:39 PM
LOL

That did take it to a new level.

Don't overlook Jaws stepping in for the reach-around on that one ....


"Yes . ... it was!"

TDmvp
11-07-2011, 08:41 PM
This is about my least favorite MNF crew in my lifetime.

RhymesayersDU
11-07-2011, 08:42 PM
Gruden does that with everyone though. If Tebow was out there he would be slobbering on about concrete cyanide and such.

Except with Tebow it'd all be true!


:)

Bronx33
11-07-2011, 08:42 PM
1 TD wins it ( go eggles)

bowtown
11-07-2011, 08:43 PM
This is about my least favorite MNF crew in my lifetime.

Then you aren't very old.

Lycan
11-07-2011, 08:43 PM
I like Gruden, I just wish we could hear the old coach-Gruden. "F@$% that was nice mother-F&$*#%$ camera work."

maher_tyler
11-07-2011, 08:43 PM
This is about my least favorite MNF crew in my lifetime.

Dennis Miller crew was waaaaay worse than this. I don't mind this crew, better than most of the CBS and Fox crews have to offer.

Turd_Ferguson
11-07-2011, 08:44 PM
Every time I watch Cutler play I want kick down the doors to Bowlen's office and throw that Gutless Drunk through the window. Why the *uck would you ever try to trade this guy for Cassell.

Bronx33
11-07-2011, 08:44 PM
So far so good

zdoor
11-07-2011, 08:48 PM
I really hate when Cutler plays well.

Yeah, me too.

Bronx33
11-07-2011, 08:48 PM
vick should just run that damn ball

Bronx33
11-07-2011, 08:49 PM
what an idiot

That One Guy
11-07-2011, 08:50 PM
Haha... Losers.

SoCalBronco
11-07-2011, 08:50 PM
Yes! Jay wins.

Sweet. :)

Today is a good day.

Lycan
11-07-2011, 08:51 PM
And Vick costs his team the game with an inaccurate pass to a wide-open Maclin. If that was Tebow there would probably be 7 topics on Sportcenter about it.

Turd_Ferguson
11-07-2011, 08:54 PM
Hey the Broncos have the same record as the Dream Team

Tombstone RJ
11-07-2011, 08:56 PM
Hey the Broncos have the same record as the Dream Team

go figure

SoCalBronco
11-07-2011, 08:57 PM
Studly.

Bronx33
11-07-2011, 08:58 PM
And Vick costs his team the game with an inaccurate pass to a wide-open Maclin. If that was Tebow there would probably be 7 topics on Sportcenter about it.


Macklin falling down didn't help.

bronco militia
11-07-2011, 09:00 PM
This is about my least favorite MNF crew in my lifetime.


Deirdorf, dennis miller, Kornheiser??

Lycan
11-07-2011, 09:01 PM
Macklin falling down didn't help.

True, but Vick had all the time in the world and a wide open receiver and he still threw it so that Maclin had to make a pretty difficult catch.

ScottXray
11-07-2011, 09:02 PM
Macklin falling down didn't help.

Vick had Macklin open for about 30 yards of running lane and threw it late and too high. Can't blame the receiver for having to SKY and then losing
his footing after making a difficult catch...

Hmm, maybe Vick is reverting to his Earlier days when he preses too much?

Lycan
11-07-2011, 09:06 PM
No more football so I turn on South Park. 1 word:

Man-Bear-Pig.

Awesome.

Tombstone RJ
11-07-2011, 09:07 PM
Last year when Vick played so well there was really no pressure on him to win. Now he's got a mega contract and the fans and media expecting him to win.

Turd_Ferguson
11-07-2011, 09:09 PM
No more football so I turn on South Park. 1 word:

Man-Bear-Pig.

Awesome.

Half Man Half Bear Half Pig MANBEARPIG

Bronx33
11-07-2011, 09:10 PM
I am super cereal!!

willyallthewei
11-07-2011, 09:17 PM
Urlacher <3 Cutler

"when he has time I don't think there's anyone better"

Garcia Bronco
11-07-2011, 09:21 PM
No more football so I turn on South Park. 1 word:

Man-Bear-Pig.

Awesome.

Are you cereal right now?

Popps
11-07-2011, 10:21 PM
Yes! Jay wins.

Sweet. :)

Today is a good day.

This is just so gross. I hope you bathed after this post.

Crushaholic
11-07-2011, 10:37 PM
I don't know why people have a need to hear the announcers. That's for the football illiterate. Those of us in the know (which is about 98% of this board) don't need overpaid blowhards to tell us what just happened. I'm very happy with the sound down...:thumbs:

LongDongJohnson
11-07-2011, 11:38 PM
Trading Cutler was such a big mistake. Especially considering we wasted the draft picks.

jhns
11-08-2011, 05:52 AM
Trading Cutler was such a big mistake. Especially considering we wasted the draft picks.

Yup.

Cutler > McDaniels + McFans

Gutless Drunk
11-08-2011, 05:57 AM
I wonder if Bowlen watches Monday Night Football? and if so, what goes through that mind of his?

strafen
11-08-2011, 05:59 AM
I wonder if Bowlen watches Monday Night Football? and if so, what goes through that mind of his?He'd probably love to press charges against Mcdaniels for gross negligence.
Damn, that guy really ****ed this team up bad!

Gutless Drunk
11-08-2011, 06:08 AM
"First, it was Eli Manning on Sunday afternoon, guiding his Giants team down the field for a late touchdown to knock off New England. Next, Joe Flacco took center stage, breaking the Steelers’ hearts with a TD pass in the waning seconds.

Monday night, it was Jay Cutler’s turn. The Bears quarterback sidestepped rush after rush, time and again creating something out of nothing, en route to 208 yards passing, two touchdowns and an absolutely critical 30-24 win over

In a matter of about 30 hours, three highly criticized, frequently questioned quarterbacks delivered signature victories.

All season long, the guy’s a stud,” Brian Urlacher told the NFL Network’s Albert Breer after the game. “He’s been our go-to guy all season long.”

http://nfl.si.com/2011/11/08/jay-cutler-delivers-as-bears-drop-eagles/?sct=nfl_t11_a0

TonyR
11-08-2011, 06:53 AM
In a matter of about 30 hours, three highly criticized, frequently questioned quarterbacks delivered signature victories.


Very true. Three guys I've been generally unimpressed with got it done.

This game made no sense. The Eagles get after the passer pretty well, the Bears have difficulty protecting Cutler. The Eagles run the ball well, the Bears have had difficulty stopping it. It figured to be a long night for the Bears in the City of Brotherly Love. Instead Cutler was never sacked and never hit and the Bears were the better rushing team. Go figure.

CEH
11-08-2011, 06:57 AM
"First, it was Eli Manning on Sunday afternoon, guiding his Giants team down the field for a late touchdown to knock off New England. Next, Joe Flacco took center stage, breaking the Steelers’ hearts with a TD pass in the waning seconds.

Monday night, it was Jay Cutler’s turn. The Bears quarterback sidestepped rush after rush, time and again creating something out of nothing, en route to 208 yards passing, two touchdowns and an absolutely critical 30-24 win over

In a matter of about 30 hours, three highly criticized, frequently questioned quarterbacks delivered signature victories.

All season long, the guy’s a stud,” Brian Urlacher told the NFL Network’s Albert Breer after the game. “He’s been our go-to guy all season long.”

http://nfl.si.com/2011/11/08/jay-cutler-delivers-as-bears-drop-eagles/?sct=nfl_t11_a0

One kid gets blasted because we didn't want to wait for his maturity to catch up with his skillset and now we have a kid who we get excited for when he completes a pass down the seam with no S or LBer within 5 yards. Waiting for his skillset to match his maturity

Complete opposites in less than 3 years

That One Guy
11-08-2011, 07:14 AM
I don't know why people have a need to hear the announcers. That's for the football illiterate. Those of us in the know (which is about 98% of this board) don't need overpaid blowhards to tell us what just happened. I'm very happy with the sound down...:thumbs:

I'm in the 2%. Maybe not this crew, but some announcers are top notch and I won't even begin to compare my knowledge to theirs.

DenverBroncosJM
11-08-2011, 08:04 AM
Bring back Paul McGuire I know a lot of people disliked him but I thought he was awesome

bowtown
11-08-2011, 08:58 AM
Bring back Paul McGuire I know a lot of people disliked him but I thought he was awesome

http://img2.moonbuggy.org/imgstore/do-not-want-eyes.jpg

Shotgun Willie
11-08-2011, 09:03 AM
Deirdorf, dennis miller, Kornheiser??

He said crew. The three you note above were all part of different crews and were never in the booth at the same time.

TonyR
11-09-2011, 01:05 PM
On PFT Live Tuesday, NFL Films producer Greg Cosell said that the NFL Matchup crew discussed a great question before last week’s show. Who is the better quarterback: Jay Cutler or Michael Vick?

“It was unanimous. Jay Cutler was the better quarterback,” Cosell said.

That says as much about the underrated Cutler as it does about Vick. But the Eagles are expecting much more out of their quarterback. They were hoping for the guy that was an MVP candidate last year.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/11/09/waiting-for-michael-vick-to-be-superman-again/

TheReverend
11-09-2011, 01:12 PM
On PFT Live Tuesday, NFL Films producer Greg Cosell said that the NFL Matchup crew discussed a great question before last week’s show. Who is the better quarterback: Jay Cutler or Michael Vick?

“It was unanimous. Jay Cutler was the better quarterback,” Cosell said.

That says as much about the underrated Cutler as it does about Vick. But the Eagles are expecting much more out of their quarterback. They were hoping for the guy that was an MVP candidate last year.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/11/09/waiting-for-michael-vick-to-be-superman-again/

Gasp. You don't say! Color me stunned... ::)

TonyR
11-09-2011, 01:14 PM
A poll of players has revealed that Lions defensive tackle Ndamukong Suh is the dirtiest player in the NFL. A poll of fans has bestowed a slightly less desirable honor on Eagles quarterback Mike Vick.

Per Tom Van Riper of Forbes.com, a new poll from Nielsen and E-Poll Market Research has found that Vick is the most disliked NFL player. Specifically, 60 percent of the respondents identified Vick as a player they “dislike,” “dislike somewhat,” or “dislike a lot.”

Jets receiver Plaxico Burress finished second, with 56 percent. Third on the list was Steelers quarterback Ben Roethlisberger, at 49 percent. In fourth place, former Pats defensive tackle Albert Haynesworth, with 46 percent.

All four players have had trouble with the law, which surely has done nothing to enhance their standing.

Bears quarterback Jay Cutler (38 percent), Patriots receiver Chad Ochocinco (35 percent), Eagles quarterback Vince Young (32 percent), Raiders quarterback Carson Palmer (31 percent), Cowboys quarterback Tony Romo (29 percent), and Panthers tight end Jeremy Shockey (29 percent) also made the list.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/11/08/new-poll-identifies-mike-vick-as-most-disliked-nfl-player/

TomServo
11-09-2011, 01:48 PM
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com...ed-nfl-player/
if the same poll question would have been taken in 1983, Elway would have topped 1st and @80%.