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Turd_Ferguson
11-07-2011, 10:13 AM
What an awesome game that was to watch, especially the second half! After weeks of whining about the play calling, they actually started running a spread option, and it worked pretty well THIS game. I remember when the Dolphins started using the wildcat offense a lot a few years ago and it was a sensation that took over the league.. Teams actually started drafting guys like Pat White for that particular package. The Jets ran it here and there with Brad Smith, and the Bills this year have thrown Brad Smith out there a few times. But it has faded in use since the leagues Defenses have seen it on tape, and had time to game plan for it.

Personally I gives lots of credit to the coaching staff for game planning this week against Oakland, but I'm dont think it will continue work, considering other teams will have lots of tape to go over. Tebow showed against Miami and Detroit he can't, or "isn't ready" to run a pro style offense. What are peoples thoughts on how successful the type of offensive game plan they used against the Raiders can be over an extended period of time?

DrFate
11-07-2011, 10:23 AM
I don't agree with your premise that Tebow can't 'run a pro style offense', although he needs to do more to prove he CAN do so.

I think the playcalling was both poor AND inspired. Too many NFL coaches simply refuse to try something that isn't the same thing that 31 other teams are doing. So to see the work yesterday where Tebow would hand to McGahee or keep it - that was going out on a limb (and rewarded). That part was inspired. I'm not saying you can build an NFL offense around it for 17 weeks, but what we saw yesterday was excellent.

The continued run/run/pass/punt forumula is never going to work. Tom Brady would fail when constantly put in 3rd-and-long situations. I'm not sure how much of this can be blamed on Clady and his constant penalties, but you have to throw on first and second down from time to time to keep the defense off-balance.

bronclvr
11-07-2011, 10:25 AM
I loved this:


"We knew exactly what they were going to do and we just didn't stop it," Raiders defensive tackle Richard Seymour said. "We knew exactly what was going to happen, and they ran exactly what we thought they were going to run and we didn't get the job done. That's the disappointing part."

Garcia Bronco
11-07-2011, 11:44 AM
NFL linemen are generally lazy-fat-people. MAke them run left-right, back and forth and they'll get tired.

Mountain Bronco
11-07-2011, 11:47 AM
The dual threat is what will make Tebow work, if he does work on a consistent basis, but he has to get a bit better with his reads and accuracy in order to make teams pay consistently for loading up the box (which they have to do in order to stop the running attack). Boy what a difference a real RB makes as well.

Requiem
11-07-2011, 11:47 AM
Spread option got defenders going like whaaaaaaaaaaaaaa


http://theuniblog.evilspacerobot.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/pee-weeshock.gif

Popps
11-07-2011, 11:49 AM
SoCal had a great post about the Zone Read. Hopefully he'll jump in here with some thoughts. Seems to me like while NFL teams will eventually figure that out, the trick would be (like he said) to make counter-adjustments for when that time comes. If you've got to automatically commit 2 defenders to a certain area to defend a play... that would seem to automatically open up something, right?

fontaine
11-07-2011, 11:59 AM
Defenses will adjust but like anything in the game you have to counter those adjustments.

Like adding in quick drag routes across the middle to have a passing option there if the backside DE/OLB keep contain. But like anything it depends on the talent executing it's job.

I'm not sure D Thomas or Royal can do that. Thomas is still a one dimensional route runner but that's to be expected and Royal barely shows up in the passing game so it's doing to have to Decker or Fells.

gyldenlove
11-07-2011, 12:05 PM
SoCal had a great post about the Zone Read. Hopefully he'll jump in here with some thoughts. Seems to me like while NFL teams will eventually figure that out, the trick would be (like he said) to make counter-adjustments for when that time comes. If you've got to automatically commit 2 defenders to a certain area to defend a play... that would seem to automatically open up something, right?

Anyone remember when Atlanta ran the triple option with Vick? it worked like a charm for 2 or 3 games, defenses just could not stop it at all. Then they got film and worked out how to contain the backside which prevents the QB keeper and the rollout pass and forces the run inside effectively shutting down the play.

I think if we don't shake up the run option they will eventually work out they have to blitz a linebacker or safety on the backside and collapse the RB option. I do like that the coaches went to it and used it when it worked, it a simple play but when it works you keep pounding until the defense shows they can stop it or you win, whichever comes first.

One thing that helped out the run game yesterday was that Tebow started hitting WRs who got open, on both passing TDs and a few other big plays Oakland set up with a zone blitz or man cover with no safeties, and Tebow was able to take advantage. Against Detroit and Miami the defense was able to blitz with impunity because Tebow couldn't take advantage of the reduced coverage.

gyldenlove
11-07-2011, 12:05 PM
Defenses will adjust but like anything in the game you have to counter those adjustments.

Like adding in quick drag routes across the middle to have a passing option there if the backside DE/OLB keep contain. But like anything it depends on the talent executing it's job.

I'm not sure D Thomas or Royal can do that. Thomas is still a one dimensional route runner but that's to be expected and Royal barely shows up in the passing game so it's doing to have to Decker or Fells.

Julius Thomas, he is a nightmare to cover on those routes.

Turd_Ferguson
11-07-2011, 12:47 PM
Defenses will adjust but like anything in the game you have to counter those adjustments.

Like adding in quick drag routes across the middle to have a passing option there if the backside DE/OLB keep contain. But like anything it depends on the talent executing it's job.

I'm not sure D Thomas or Royal can do that. Thomas is still a one dimensional route runner but that's to be expected and Royal barely shows up in the passing game so it's doing to have to Decker or Fells.

Royal Showed up fine when Cutler was his quarterback. He is a small guy. He is not Randy Moss where you can throw the ball in his general direction and he will come down with it. One play that stuck out to me yesterday with Royal was a long pass play in which he had ran an out pattern, or a deep fade, all the way to the sideline before Tebow got him the ball. Royal actually had to stop stand and wait for the ball to get there and then made a good play on it even though the bad timing had allowed the defender to catch up.

I dont think the receiving core is in anyway the problem, in fact i think it is one of the bright spots on the team. Honestly I think with accurate, on time, throws from the QB this offense isnt far from being "explosive".

ghwk
11-07-2011, 12:48 PM
We will have a lot of options available to us if Tebow can complete passes.

Speaking of which why does he seem to throw better moving to his right of all things. He also seem to throw a better ball when he doesn't have to put any touch on it. If he chucks it it seems to get there but that high loopy throw over Deckers head in the 1st qtr, I mean WTF!! That is not a good one for him. Adrenaline maybe....

Jetmeck
11-07-2011, 12:56 PM
six games...lets not forget.................? he will improve

DrFate
11-07-2011, 01:06 PM
Tebow needs time and coaching

should we be shocked?

OABB
11-07-2011, 01:08 PM
Tebow needs time and coaching

should we be shocked?

No. Nor should we be upset or impatient. But than again, that would require not being an asshole.

enjolras
11-07-2011, 01:39 PM
I think if we don't shake up the run option they will eventually work out they have to blitz a linebacker or safety on the backside and collapse the RB option.

Except that if the QB has a relatively accurate deep ball (which Tebow has shown the ability to throw) that's suicide. You need look no farther than what Mike Leach would do in his offense. If they are bringing a blitz on the left side you a) run a receiver on the streak to that side, b) run a slot-receiver or tight-end up the seam on the other side, and c) drag a physical receiver (like D. Thomas) across the middle into the space vacated by the linebacker.

The defense is now at a huge disadvantage... IF the QB can make the right read. If you bring a safety you're going to leave either a receiver or a slot-receiver/tight-end in 1-1 coverage. If you bring a linebacker that dragging receiver is going to be wide-open in the space vacated by the linebacker (Crabtree became a high first-round pick on that route alone). If you slide the coverage over you are opening the middle of the field where inside draws and hand-offs can absolutely gash you (see: @Raiders 2011).

The whole thing requires the QB to make the right call at the line of scrimmage and quickly identify the open receiver. This is a bit different than the single read stuff Tebow ran at Florida.

If you run into a defense that has a great cover corner AND a very good safety with a lot of range..you might run into trouble. The Steelers defense will give this team fits, but they give a lot of teams trouble no matter what style the offense.

Dagmar
11-07-2011, 01:42 PM
Julius Thomas, he is a nightmare to cover on those routes.

Has he caught a ball yet?

ghwk
11-07-2011, 01:48 PM
Except that if the QB has a relatively accurate deep ball (which Tebow has shown the ability to throw) that's suicide. You need look no farther than what Mike Leach would do in his offense. If they are bringing a blitz on the left side you a) run a receiver on the streak to that side, b) run a slot-receiver or tight-end up the seam on the other side, and c) drag a physical receiver (like D. Thomas) across the middle into the space vacated by the linebacker.

The defense is now at a huge disadvantage... IF the QB can make the right read. If you bring a safety you're going to leave either a receiver or a slot-receiver/tight-end in 1-1 coverage. If you bring a linebacker that dragging receiver is going to be wide-open in the space vacated by the linebacker (Crabtree became a high first-round pick on that route alone). If you slide the coverage over you are opening the middle of the field where inside draws and hand-offs can absolutely gash you (see: @Raiders 2011).


The whole thing requires the QB to make the right call at the line of scrimmage and quickly identify the open receiver. This is a bit different than the single read stuff Tebow ran at Florida.

If you run into a defense that has a great cover corner AND a very good safety with a lot of range..you might run into trouble. The Steelers defense will give this team fits, but they give a lot of teams trouble no matter what style the offense.

Maybe our QB should be able to call a play without having to read it off his wrist before we ask him to do this. :rofl:

Doggcow
11-07-2011, 01:50 PM
The Zone Read KILLED THEM.

On McGahee's 24 yarder, he wasn't even touched.

I've said it before, I'll say it again. Tebow handing RB's the ball, makes them better RB's than if someone other than Tebow was handing them the ball.

We beat Tennessee if Tebow hand's to McGahee on 4th and goal.

DBroncos4life
11-07-2011, 01:51 PM
http://vid109.photobucket.com/albums/n80/artoftroy/Run Game/th_RichRodSpreadRunsOverview.jpg?videoplayer=offsi te?videoplayer=offsite (http://s109.photobucket.com/albums/n80/artoftroy/Run Game/?action=view&current=RichRodSpreadRunsOverview.flv)

I love the fact that we are running something like this. Keep in mind though it does lead to fumbles do to the fact that the QB and RB might not always be on the same page.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/wrygTMsyCek" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/g8zaPteV68E" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Popps
11-07-2011, 02:01 PM
Has he caught a ball yet?

Caught 1 for 30, which was 17 yards less than our leading WR had all day long. Our WR's aren't exactly racking up the yardage as of late. Not complaining, but I am hoping we can improve in that area soon so defenses have to play us more honestly.

Steve Prefontaine
11-07-2011, 02:16 PM
Caught 1 for 30, which was 17 yards less than our leading WR had all day long. Our WR's aren't exactly racking up the yardage as of late. Not complaining, but I am hoping we can improve in that area soon so defenses have to play us more honestly.

He was referring to Julius Thomas.

He was only targeted twice yesterday. I think his only catch this year was a 5 yarder and he got hurt. Tebow just missed him yesterday on what could have been a nice TD pass.

Lycan
11-07-2011, 05:40 PM
Look at how far the defenders are out of position before they realize wtf is going on

http://i.imgur.com/YxQsp.gif

That's a thing of beauty.

Popps
11-07-2011, 06:00 PM
He was referring to Julius Thomas.

He was only targeted twice yesterday. I think his only catch this year was a 5 yarder and he got hurt. Tebow just missed him yesterday on what could have been a nice TD pass.

Got it.

That Thomas is a long-term project, imo... but I'd love to see us continue to work him into the game-plan. What a difference that would make for Tebow to have another weapon at TE.

StugotsIII
11-07-2011, 06:36 PM
Anyone interested in this offense...


Watch Oregon this season...


Fun offense to watch...


Denver runs about.1% of what Oregon runs. Interesting to see if they continue to build upon what they started.

Play2win
11-07-2011, 06:42 PM
John Fox... the innovator Hilarious!

DBroncos4life
11-07-2011, 06:49 PM
I'm impressed how well they got it working in such a short time. The more time we have the more wrinkles we can add to it. I've always wondered how well a college style of O would work in the NFL. I know it didn't work that well for the Skins when Steve Spurrier tried the fun and gun. Hopefully we can build on this style of O and bring some pro style out of it as well.

Boogerboots
11-07-2011, 06:55 PM
Considering what was seen in the first 3 quarters of the Miami game after a bye week... it appears at least some thought is being put into the play calling.

I wonder sometimes what Tebow could have done in the set designed for Plummer with all those bootlegs. Dig up some of that old tape.

Turd_Ferguson
11-07-2011, 09:01 PM
Considering what was seen in the first 3 quarters of the Miami game after a bye week... it appears at least some thought is being put into the play calling.

I wonder sometimes what Tebow could have done in the set designed for Plummer with all those bootlegs. Dig up some of that old tape.

I thought about that too... He would either flourish or throw a bunch of crappy passes into the dirt in front of the receiver or 6 feet over their head, who knows?

StugotsIII
11-07-2011, 09:09 PM
Considering what was seen in the first 3 quarters of the Miami game after a bye week... it appears at least some thought is being put into the play calling.

I wonder sometimes what Tebow could have done in the set designed for Plummer with all those bootlegs. Dig up some of that old tape.

Plummer was an effective passer…


Tebow is not.

Turd_Ferguson
11-07-2011, 09:11 PM
Plummer was an effective passer…


Tebow is not.

heeey I wonder what Plummer is up to these days??

Bronx33
11-07-2011, 09:16 PM
I wonder what plummers accuracy was like when he was a rookie ? Hmmmmm..

http://www.nfl.com/player/timtebow/497135/careerstats

http://www.nfl.com/player/jakeplummer/2502499/profile

HAT
11-07-2011, 09:25 PM
Anyone interested in this offense...


Watch Oregon this season...


Fun offense to watch...


Denver runs about.1% of what Oregon runs. Interesting to see if they continue to build upon what they started.

Part of the reason I wanted Koetter over Fox.....I think he would've brought Mark Helfrich on board as OC (or at the very least QB coach)

Turd_Ferguson
11-07-2011, 09:26 PM
I wonder what plummers accuracy was like when he was a rookie ? Hmmmmm..

http://www.nfl.com/player/timtebow/497135/careerstats

http://www.nfl.com/player/jakeplummer/2502499/profile

I bet it was so bad the Cardinals had to switch to the Spread Offense to compensate for his horrible accuracy.

StugotsIII
11-07-2011, 10:13 PM
heeey I wonder what Plummer is up to these days??

He's dominating the handball circuit of course...

Bob's your Information Minister
11-07-2011, 10:20 PM
I wonder what plummers accuracy was like when he was a rookie ? Hmmmmm..

http://www.nfl.com/player/timtebow/497135/careerstats

http://www.nfl.com/player/jakeplummer/2502499/profile

Jake Plummer?

Really shooting for the moon there.

Bronx33
11-07-2011, 10:27 PM
Jake Plummer?

Really shooting for the moon there.


Read the previous posts you tard.

fontaine
11-08-2011, 03:20 AM
Look, this isn't about the type of offense.

It's about personnel.

The zone/spread option worked for us because:
1. The OL did a great job of moving the font 7 systematically creating a lot of movement making it hard for the safety or Wimbley/Moss to get a clear read of where the ball was going.

2. It was a different alignment with an unbalanced formation to the strong side. So much so that we didnt' have a TE/WR lining up on the other side. Everyone was lined up/motioned far right which made the raiders shift to that side and gave Tebow or McGahee only the backside defender to beat and Tebow naturally looked great selling the fake to McGahee or handing it off and faking run himself and freezing the backside DE.

3. This play worked because a) Tebow is fast enough to get past two extremely athletic DEs in Moss/Wimbley and b) McGahee has just excellent feet where he cuts and moves with great footspeed and burst.

Now the two things to note here are that this type of play was successfull against two of the fastest DEs in the league in Moss/Wimbley and it was a completely base option with no wrinkles like giving Tebow the 3rd option to pass the ball.

It's the personal (OL, Tebow, McGahee) that made it work. The more they practice it, the better they get with more possibilities of adding more options and running it different ways, like passing out of it with Tebow on the run.

This is we're missing a very good TE that can line up away from the play and still be quick/strong enough to go across the middle and get open. I don't think Royal can, and D Thomas isn't a polished route runner so that leaves Decker really.

fontaine
11-08-2011, 03:23 AM
You can see here how unbalanced the formation is stacked to the strong side. The entire defense is flowing in that direction.

fontaine
11-08-2011, 03:31 AM
Now this is much later in the 2nd half.

Same play but unbalanced to the other side but it breaks the same way, with Tebow/McGahee having to beat the DE on the right side.

Same play, two different alignments to target the DE. I am absolutely sure defense will adjust by sending a safety or OLB to spy on that Tebow option but then you've got a defender away from the stacked side where we've got three wideouts and you can add a different option for Tebow to rollout or pass to that side.

Again it's about the personnel and how well they execute it. The important thing is that the offense, OL, RB, QB have got his base play down very well. When you can do that, it allows any OC to expand on possibilites/wrinkles from out of that base play. It's a good start.

Jay3
11-08-2011, 03:45 AM
The important thing is that the offense, OL, RB, QB have got his base play down very well. When you can do that, it allows any OC to expand on possibilites/wrinkles from out of that base play. It's a good start.

Exactly. Running a play or set of plays to dominant success is the first step. For the people that say "Defense will get film and adjust" -- I just wonder why those people even watch football. Of course they will. It never ends.

There is nothing in the game of football that can't be stopped. The game consists of action/reaction ad infinitum.

fontaine
11-08-2011, 04:12 AM
Exactly. Running a play or set of plays to dominant success is the first step. For the people that say "Defense will get film and adjust" -- I just wonder why those people even watch football. Of course they will. It never ends.

There is nothing in the game of football that can't be stopped. The game consists of action/reaction ad infinitum.

Yes, and it's not like we were running the entire offense from the spread/zone option. Only a few plays and that means defenses will have to spend more time preparing for that offense.

Jay3
11-08-2011, 04:16 AM
Yes, and it's not like we were running the entire offense from the spread/zone option. Only a few plays and that means defenses will have to spend more time preparing for that offense.

And, defenses will have to assume we can run the ball with lethal success out of the shotgun formation (a sort of holy grail for OC's).

Turd_Ferguson
11-08-2011, 05:59 AM
Jake Plummer?

Really shooting for the moon there.

Nothing says shooting the moon like a blow out loss to the Dolphins you fat slob.

Gort
11-08-2011, 07:26 AM
Maybe our QB should be able to call a play without having to read it off his wrist before we ask him to do this. :rofl:

like this guy!

wait.

what?

http://www.patriotsgab.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/Tom-Brady1.jpg

TD4HOF
11-08-2011, 07:33 AM
For all the talk of religion and whatnot, I find this aspect (adjusting to Tebow's unique skillset) to be by far the most fascinating. The NFL ain't exactly a collection of creative types y'know.

peacepipe
11-08-2011, 07:48 AM
For all the talk of religion and whatnot, I find this aspect (adjusting to Tebow's unique skillset) to be by far the most fascinating. The NFL ain't exactly a collection of creative types y'know.

??? vick & young would disagree.

bronco militia
11-08-2011, 08:04 AM
Maybe our QB should be able to call a play without having to read it off his wrist before we ask him to do this. :rofl:

wtf?

Boogerboots
11-08-2011, 08:05 AM
Plummer was an effective passer…


Tebow is not.

You would have to give the edge to Plummer for the intermediate range passes, but down the field Plummer did have a rep of being erratic too. Most of the bootlegs were run based plays where the D over-committed to the run (back in the days when we had a respected run game). Once they set a spy, they would roll a WR or TE to be an open target along with Plummer to have a passing option on those plays.

Much like now, the last 3 games we saw the opposing D crowd the line and blitz the pocket non-stop. As I would give the edge to Plummer for his passing game but I believe Tebow definitely had an edge on both scramble and run ability...but not handball. If the OC could shift to this style or have a package of plays designed for this, it would be interesting to see how it would work.

Only wildcard in this is the OL which is now bigger and less mobile than back in the "good ol'days" as the braintrust have tried to implement the pocket protection line.

Jay3
11-08-2011, 08:11 AM
Maybe our QB should be able to call a play without having to read it off his wrist before we ask him to do this. :rofl:

The wrist band is not just a cheat sheet for someone who doesn't know the playbook. It's also used as a call-sheet for the gameplan. It enables the coaches to shorten the call over the radio. Some of the playcalls are quite lengthy in the huddle, and the call over the radio will be an agreed upon code sheet for the plays that are installed. The quarterback then calls out the long-version for the huddle.

In other words, fail.

oubronco
11-08-2011, 08:23 AM
I bet it was so bad the Cardinals had to switch to the Spread Offense to compensate for his horrible accuracy.

:~ohyah!:

oubronco
11-08-2011, 08:30 AM
http://www.orangemane.com/BB/attachment.php?attachmentid=29487&stc=1&d=1320751719
With all 11 defenders that close to the LOS if they had a burner in the slot they could exploit that bigtime

TD4HOF
11-08-2011, 08:50 AM
??? vick & young would disagree.

I get you but Tebow is much more physical and stronger. I would never want Vick (as my QB) to carry the ball by design more than twice a game. He'd never last. Same for Young. Those guys scramble to survive, Tebow scrambles to destroy.

peacepipe
11-08-2011, 09:10 AM
I get you but Tebow is much more physical and stronger. I would never want Vick (as my QB) to carry the ball by design more than twice a game. He'd never last. Same for Young. Those guys scramble to survive, Tebow scrambles to destroy.dude,you're dreaming.

Binkythefrog
11-08-2011, 10:48 AM
Some good analysis on the spread/read/zone option:

http://www.itsalloverfatman.com/broncos/entry/you-got-served-the-zone-read

I like the idea that if the Broncos decide to use this as their base, they can run other plays to counter act what the D does.

From the blog:

"I expect the Broncos to continue to wear this play out, and to begin showing a lot more variations off of this action. You want to sell out to set both edges? Fine, McGahee’s running right up the middle. You want to put nine in the tackle box and ignore the trips outside? Fine, have fun with that three-on-one bubble screen against a single CB. Trust me, there’s answer after answer."

Who knows if Tebow can hold up running this play constantly (I think he could.. if he has 10 or so carries a game). With Tebow in the shotgun, if we keep playing 3 receivers to force defenses in nickel, I can't see two linebackers and a 6 man front containing the Broncos run game given how they blocked against the Raiders. It's just a matter of Tebow making enough throws to push the Safeties off the line.

I hope the Broncos try to really run with this concept.. it'll be interesting to watch.

jhns
11-08-2011, 11:08 AM
Who was supposed to take the read option that was fumbled in the Lions game? Both Ball and Tebow tried to run with it. It looked like both had room to run. What was the correct read on that play?

Turd_Ferguson
11-08-2011, 08:07 PM
I get you but Tebow is much more physical and stronger. I would never want Vick (as my QB) to carry the ball by design more than twice a game. He'd never last. Same for Young. Those guys scramble to survive, Tebow scrambles to destroy.

What does crack taste like?

Inkana7
11-08-2011, 08:18 PM
I wonder what plummers accuracy was like when he was a rookie ? Hmmmmm..

http://www.nfl.com/player/timtebow/497135/careerstats

http://www.nfl.com/player/jakeplummer/2502499/profile

Over 50%? Over 50%.

mwill07
11-08-2011, 08:27 PM
I get you but Tebow is much more physical and stronger. I would never want Vick (as my QB) to carry the ball by design more than twice a game. He'd never last. Same for Young. Those guys scramble to survive, Tebow scrambles to destroy.

in his heyday, vick averaged about 7.5 carries a game, and was fine. Right now, in Philly, he's getting just a bit over 7 carries a game.

Yes, he got injured and missed time in 2003. However, I'd counter that it's just as likely for a QB to be injured in the pocket too...just ask Tom Brady.