PDA

View Full Version : Champ on Tebow: "It worked today, didn't it? I'm a believer. Until we go on a crazy losing streak...


MVPlaya II - Electric Boogaloo
11-06-2011, 08:29 PM
http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/6109/screenshot20111106at728.png

RhymesayersDU
11-06-2011, 08:42 PM
I like the statement. He's not saying Tebow is the best thing since sliced bread, but he's behind him.

Basically, "Just win, baby!"

epicSocialism4tw
11-06-2011, 08:45 PM
"It worked today, didn't it?"

Champ's giving the haters a little rib.

vonqkilla
11-06-2011, 08:55 PM
Lol, champ is on the bandwagon, until he isnt.

HooptyHoops
11-06-2011, 08:57 PM
I think we all can agree to the same thing.....

MacGruder
11-06-2011, 09:13 PM
It's true of anyone.. no one is a sure fire bet..

Also, for Champ to believe - being in the position he is in - means a lot more.

Hamrob
11-06-2011, 09:19 PM
Great qoute. He's behind him as long as it's moving in the right direction.

I can't falt him or anyone. Tebow needs to improve in the passing game to get everyone on board. I think he will. But, it's going to take some time. In the mean time he has other talents he can utilize!!!

theAPAOps5
11-06-2011, 09:26 PM
Champ has been behind him since the switch. I think he likes his work ethic and leadership.

MacGruder
11-06-2011, 09:28 PM
Champ played in the SEC.. he realizes what Tebow did.. he knows whatsup!

Simple Jake
11-06-2011, 09:29 PM
While were talking about Champ, I just wanna to say it was awesome to see him get a couple picks today.. Haven't seen those multi-pick games from him since the AFC Championship year

frerottenextelway
11-06-2011, 09:30 PM
I enjoy winning more than losing.

JDB7821
11-06-2011, 09:31 PM
Great win for the Broncos today. For some reason they actually had this game on in the Atlanta market and after being critical of Tebow last week (deservedly so) I can also give praise when it's deserved. He made the option work with McGahee and I didn't see anywhere near the terrible play I saw last week. He still has a long, long way to go, but as long as he takes two steps forward after one step back he'll get there eventually. For anyone wanting Tebow to remain the quarterback of the Broncos, you need to hope for about 3 more wins to take the prospect of trading for Luck out of Elway's mind.

Play2win
11-06-2011, 09:41 PM
I think we are two entirely different teams with and without McGahee in there.

LongDongJohnson
11-07-2011, 02:14 AM
While were talking about Champ, I just wanna to say it was awesome to see him get a couple picks today.. Haven't seen those multi-pick games from him since the AFC Championship year

You must have been in a coma during the entire 2006 season.

Gort
11-07-2011, 02:42 AM
I think we are two entirely different teams with and without McGahee in there.

that's true, but don't overlook the quality level of the opponent. the Broncos are not a good team. they aren't the absolute worst in the NFL, but they are part of the group that you can only expect to win between 3 and 7 games. against other teams like that, the Broncos are competitive. against actual playoff caliber teams (GB, Detroit), the Broncos have been exposed for what they are... lacking in depth and with very few elite players. the good news is that Sandy Eggo isn't very good this year afterall. the Broncos were just a few inches away from beating them on that Hail Mary pass from Tebow and we may be primed for an upset the next time we face them.

Jay3
11-07-2011, 05:27 AM
One of the best things about it (besides beating the Raiders badly on their field) was how hard it must have been to come back from last week.

It ain't easy to be big enough for the moment after the beating Tebow's been taking.

TheReverend
11-07-2011, 06:10 AM
One of the best things about it (besides beating the Raiders badly on their field) was how hard it must have been to come back from last week.

It ain't easy to be big enough for the moment after the beating Tebow's been taking.

Fully agree

TailgateNut
11-07-2011, 06:28 AM
that's true, but don't overlook the quality level of the opponent. the Broncos are not a good team. they aren't the absolute worst in the NFL, but they are part of the group that you can only expect to win between 3 and 7 games. against other teams like that, the Broncos are competitive. against actual playoff caliber teams (GB, Detroit), the Broncos have been exposed for what they are... lacking in depth and with very few elite players. the good news is that Sandy Eggo isn't very good this year afterall. the Broncos were just a few inches away from beating them on that Hail Mary pass from Tebow and we may be primed for an upset the next time we face them.


It sure would be a breath of fresh air to, at least, redeem ourselves by not being swept by in the AFC west.

I just plain hate the raiders (always have, always will)
It's embarrasing to lose to KC
...and Rivers and Co need to be brought back down to size.

TheReverend
11-07-2011, 07:15 AM
Odd. Some ****ty poster told me a week ago that Champ was done with Tebow in a horrible thread from a quote that had nothing to do with the inferred topic.

txtebow
11-07-2011, 07:21 AM
Odd. Some ****ty poster told me a week ago that Champ was done with Tebow in a horrible thread from a quote that had nothing to do with the inferred topic.

indeed

CEH
11-07-2011, 08:15 AM
Just saying, last 21 minutes of the game Tim did not throw a pass. Will that work all season. Who knows. Kinda what Champ is saying worked today.

Consistency. When you get a guy open in the NFL, you have to make those throws like JT was open down near the 10.

3rd down was not good 4/12. I know one was called back and two other we were put in a bad position due to holding.

The evaluation process continues which is a good thing and. Nice TD throws. I'm encouraged. Still don't think your QB can run for 100 yards and be successful over 16 games but if he can make the normal throws and keep the chanins moving it then it becomes a double edge sword and a weapon.

MplsBronco
11-07-2011, 08:20 AM
I think we are two entirely different teams with and without McGahee in there.

Yeah, its nice to have a real RB again. He knows when to take what is there and then he obviously can still take it all the way. Great game from him

Ray Finkle
11-07-2011, 08:22 AM
Just saying, last 21 minutes of the game Tim did not throw a pass. Will that work all season. Who knows. Kinda what Champ is saying worked today.

Consistency. When you get a guy open in the NFL, you have to make those throws like JT was open down near the 10.

3rd down was not good 4/12. I know one was called back and two other we were put in a bad position due to holding.

The evaluation process continues which is a good thing and. Nice TD throws. I'm encouraged. Still don't think your QB can run for 100 yards and be successful over 16 games but if he can make the normal throws and keep the chanins moving it then it becomes a double edge sword and a weapon.

true but when you're stomping a mud hole in the other team in the run game, why would you throw?

TheReverend
11-07-2011, 08:38 AM
Just saying, last 21 minutes of the game Tim did not throw a pass. Will that work all season. Who knows. Kinda what Champ is saying worked today.

How dare they not run the clock out through the air!

theAPAOps5
11-07-2011, 08:47 AM
I find it funny that people are criticizing the 21 minutes of running the ball. Denver won by 14 and grinded the clock out doing so. Remember 14 points came off a punt return and a 60 yard run. Pretty much negated any need to throw.

Tebow still has a ways to go but don't criticize him for 21 minutes of running when it wasn't necessary to throw. Besides John fox is a run first guy......

orinjkrush
11-07-2011, 08:48 AM
its great to see that you can win in the NFL through a DIFFERENT way than most believe: Arena Football Passing and/or Ravens-style shutdown defense.

Design a strategy around what works for your talent? Inconceivable!

Jay3
11-07-2011, 08:49 AM
Still don't think your QB can run for 100 yards and be successful over 16 games but if he can make the normal throws and keep the chanins moving it then it becomes a double edge sword and a weapon.

The 100 yards got a little bit inflated because two of the runs went for 32 and 28 (total of 60). Those runs could have been for 8 and it would have been just as effective, and the total would have been lower.

The point is just that the "100 yards rushing" doesn't mean that Tebow is having to play a workhorse role in the run game. It just means he is a real threat that will keep the spacing honest in opposing defenses. Plus he can make a 20 yard out ("NFL throw") if they sag in.

Play2win
11-07-2011, 08:54 AM
The 100 yards got a little bit inflated because two of the runs went for 32 and 28 (total of 60). Those runs could have been for 8 and it would have been just as effective, and the total would have been lower.

The point is just that the "100 yards rushing" doesn't mean that Tebow is having to play a workhorse role in the run game. It just means he is a real threat that will keep the spacing honest in opposing defenses. Plus he can make a 20 yard out ("NFL throw") if they sag in.

Tebow can really put pressure on the edges. Opposing defenses really have to play sideline to sideline. That opens up a lot of runs up the gut and off-tackle. Probable a good reason for some of McGahee's longer runs yesterday.

CEH
11-07-2011, 09:10 AM
The 100 yards got a little bit inflated because two of the runs went for 32 and 28 (total of 60). Those runs could have been for 8 and it would have been just as effective, and the total would have been lower.

The point is just that the "100 yards rushing" doesn't mean that Tebow is having to play a workhorse role in the run game. It just means he is a real threat that will keep the spacing honest in opposing defenses. Plus he can make a 20 yard out ("NFL throw") if they sag in.

I think he can use this threat for a career if he can get his completion % up near 60%. The threat of run or pass will really put a defense on its heels.

I think 60% is a thresold that EFX will use at the end of the season to evauate Tim. 50% will not cut it long term in the NFL. I know he's a work in progress just saying it's an area where I think they want him to improve to move to next year

TheReverend
11-07-2011, 10:31 AM
I think he can use this threat for a career if he can get his completion % up near 60%. The threat of run or pass will really put a defense on its heels.

I think 60% is a thresold that EFX will use at the end of the season to evauate Tim. 50% will not cut it long term in the NFL. I know he's a work in progress just saying it's an area where I think they want him to improve to move to next year

50% for Tim is closer to 70% for other QBs (dead serious)

Ray Finkle
11-07-2011, 10:39 AM
50% for Tim is closer to 70% for other QBs (dead serious)

how so? not trying to insight an argument. Just want to understand your thinking.

BroncoBen
11-07-2011, 10:45 AM
50% for Tim is closer to 70% for other QBs (dead serious)

?? .. I'm confused on your thinking.. please eloborate.

So if 40 throws are attempted.. and Tebow completes 20 of them (50%) how is that the same as 28 completions (70%) ??

TheReverend
11-07-2011, 10:45 AM
how so? not trying to insight an argument. Just want to understand your thinking.

I dunno if I should spoil it, was going to save it for the podcast to make a point?

I know, I know...

Ray Finkle
11-07-2011, 10:57 AM
I dunno if I should spoil it, was going to save it for the podcast to make a point?

I know, I know...

grrr....

http://gifsoup.com/imager.php?id=1793233&t=o (http://gifsoup.com/view/1793233/rick-james-slap.html)

Jay3
11-07-2011, 11:00 AM
?? .. I'm confused on your thinking.. please eloborate.

So if 40 throws are attempted.. and Tebow completes 20 of them (50%) how is that the same as 28 completions (70%) ??

Tebow is efficient at scoring touchdowns in an amount disproportionate to his completion percentage. There are several reasons:

1. He tends to get more rushing yardage than other quarterbacks, particularly key first downs and touchdowns.

2. He tends to throw more passes of greater length (15+, 20+), and does not complete of a lot of short passes (which tend to increase the completion percentage).

So in comparing "apples to apples," the offense's total production with Tebow at 50% will be equivalent to a Carson Palmer type at a much higher completion percentage. I assume to the 50/70 are estimates to convey the point.

Mountain Bronco
11-07-2011, 12:30 PM
Can you say hedging??? Seriously that isn't a very strong recommendation. I like everyone as long as we are winning.

peacepipe
11-07-2011, 12:33 PM
Tebow is efficient at scoring touchdowns in an amount disproportionate to his completion percentage. There are several reasons:

1. He tends to get more rushing yardage than other quarterbacks, particularly key first downs and touchdowns.

2. He tends to throw more passes of greater length (15+, 20+), and does not complete of a lot of short passes (which tend to increase the completion percentage).

So in comparing "apples to apples," the offense's total production with Tebow at 50% will be equivalent to a Carson Palmer type at a much higher completion percentage. I assume to the 50/70 are estimates to convey the point.well how about an aaron rogers,tom brady,payton manning type

CEH
11-07-2011, 12:47 PM
Tebow is efficient at scoring touchdowns in an amount disproportionate to his completion percentage. There are several reasons:

1. He tends to get more rushing yardage than other quarterbacks, particularly key first downs and touchdowns.

2. He tends to throw more passes of greater length (15+, 20+), and does not complete of a lot of short passes (which tend to increase the completion percentage).

So in comparing "apples to apples," the offense's total production with Tebow at 50% will be equivalent to a Carson Palmer type at a much higher completion percentage. I assume to the 50/70 are estimates to convey the point.

So how does Tebow fare on 3rd and 4 according to your logic? Is 50% better or equal to 70% on 3rd and 4?

mkporter
11-07-2011, 02:07 PM
So how does Tebow fare on 3rd and 4 according to your logic? Is 50% better or equal to 70% on 3rd and 4?

I think the answer is that you include the times he can run the ball for the first on 3rd & 4 as part of the percentage. I'm not sure I agree that 50% = 70%, but I'd definitely give up 10% to get Tebow's special skills. You also have to include the fact that he is usually pretty careful with the ball. Not many QBs who throw at a 46% rate have a 6 to 1 TD to INT ratio. He still has a passer rating of 80 for the year, and he has had some pretty ugly play at times.

TheReverend
11-07-2011, 02:18 PM
I think the answer is that you include the times he can run the ball for the first on 3rd & 4 as part of the percentage. I'm not sure I agree that 50% = 70%, but I'd definitely give up 10% to get Tebow's special skills. You also have to include the fact that he is usually pretty careful with the ball. Not many QBs who throw at a 46% rate have a 6 to 1 TD to INT ratio. He still has a passer rating of 80 for the year, and he has had some pretty ugly play at times.

So warm

gyldenlove
11-07-2011, 02:41 PM
50% for Tim is closer to 70% for other QBs (dead serious)

In essence you would count his running plays as passing plays, whenever he gets stuffed you can consider an incomplete pass (same result), when he loses yards you can consider a sack and when he gains yards you can consider a completion (same result), so if he gains positive yardage on 10 of 12 rushes for instance and completes 11 of 23 (a tad below 50%) passes his net success rate is 21 of 35 (60%).

Popps
11-07-2011, 02:45 PM
So in comparing "apples to apples," the offense's total production with Tebow at 50% will be equivalent to a Carson Palmer type at a much higher completion percentage. I assume to the 50/70 are estimates to convey the point.

Tebow math!

I love the kid, but 48% is 48%. You saw last week what a quality defense will do to a guy who can't make them pay with his arm. He needs to improve throwing the ball, and not just a little.

That said, I love his play... and I do think the other elements of his game clearly make you evaluate him a bit differently. But, he can't keep missing wide open guys.


It's funny to read this stuff, though. I'd imagine Tebow wouldn't want anyone making excuses for him. I'd imagine he wants to become a better passer, himself.

TheReverend
11-07-2011, 02:50 PM
In essence you would count his running plays as passing plays, whenever he gets stuffed you can consider an incomplete pass (same result), when he loses yards you can consider a sack and when he gains yards you can consider a completion (same result), so if he gains positive yardage on 10 of 12 rushes for instance and completes 11 of 23 (a tad below 50%) passes his net success rate is 21 of 35 (60%).

Bah screw it:

Tebow was 10/21 47.6% 124 yards 5.9 YPA and 2 TDs with no picks for a 98.1 rating

Good showing as a passer, but far from great.

Another QB earlier in the year played at Oakland with a subpar supporting cast and went 22/33 66.7% 242 yards with a very impressive 7.3 YPA and 2 TDs with no picks and a sterling 108.4 QB rating.

That QB even has a dynamic skillset as a passer that forces the defense to defend more of the field and opens plays up for the rest of the team.





Which would you rather have?

CEH
11-07-2011, 02:58 PM
In essence you would count his running plays as passing plays, whenever he gets stuffed you can consider an incomplete pass (same result), when he loses yards you can consider a sack and when he gains yards you can consider a completion (same result), so if he gains positive yardage on 10 of 12 rushes for instance and completes 11 of 23 (a tad below 50%) passes his net success rate is 21 of 35 (60%).

From a game in and game out perpective, does Elway really want the QB running that much. Doesn't the odds say the more you run the more likely you are to get injured? I don't think Elway wants Tebow running 10-12 times a game.

DCs can design defenses to keep Tebow in the pocket. Then what ? We can't assume Tebow will always have these running lanes

I'm not avocating Tebow become Rodgers but I believe there is a standard Elway would want Tebow to achieve in order to continue as the QB . At this point I don't know what that is. I'm just going off what he has said on his radio shows about Tim and where he has seen improvemnet and where he would like to see more. 3rd down conversion and completion % have been the main improvement points I have heard.

TheReverend
11-07-2011, 03:23 PM
From a game in and game out perpective, does Elway really want the QB running that much. Doesn't the odds say the more you run the more likely you are to get injured? I don't think Elway wants Tebow running 10-12 times a game.

DCs can design defenses to keep Tebow in the pocket. Then what ? We can't assume Tebow will always have these running lanes

I'm not avocating Tebow become Rodgers but I believe there is a standard Elway would want Tebow to achieve in order to continue as the QB . At this point I don't know what that is. I'm just going off what he has said on his radio shows about Tim and where he has seen improvemnet and where he would like to see more. 3rd down conversion and completion % have been the main improvement points I have heard.

They put in zone read option plays and call QB draws and OT runs on the regular, so yes, they want Tebow running 10-12 times a game.

Also, Elway is the most sacked QB in NFL history on top of being a run it 5ish times per game QB himself, so he's no stranger to long careers despite big hits.

Smilin Assassin
11-07-2011, 03:46 PM
Also, Elway is the most sacked QB in NFL history on top of being a run it 5ish times per game QB himself, so he's no stranger to long careers despite big hits.


And WHY is John Elway the most sacked QB in NFL history?


...because, he just kept getting up.


(I have no point, I've just always liked that line :D)

CEH
11-07-2011, 04:04 PM
They put in zone read option plays and call QB draws and OT runs on the regular, so yes, they want Tebow running 10-12 times a game.

Also, Elway is the most sacked QB in NFL history on top of being a run it 5ish times per game QB himself, so he's no stranger to long careers despite big hits.

I said in another thread last Saturday look for the Broncos to go more to the FLA offense so I saw it coming but I'm not convinced that Sunday was not just a way to get the offense moving (you know 0-18) and it really isn't isn't the long term solution. We'll see what they do over the next 9 games. I can almost feel that the JETs will probably shut down the run game no matter the style so it will be a big litmus test for our passing game.

TheReverend
11-07-2011, 04:26 PM
I said in another thread last Saturday look for the Broncos to go more to the FLA offense so I saw it coming but I'm not convinced that Sunday was not just a way to get the offense moving (you know 0-18) and it really isn't isn't the long term solution. We'll see what they do over the next 9 games. I can almost feel that the JETs will probably shut down the run game no matter the style so it will be a big litmus test for our passing game.

It's possible. It's also possible an over aggressive attacking defense like NYJ gets raped by the added dynamic.

But I digress:

Bah screw it:

Tebow was 10/21 47.6% 124 yards 5.9 YPA and 2 TDs with no picks for a 98.1 rating

Good showing as a passer, but far from great.

Another QB earlier in the year played at Oakland with a subpar supporting cast and went 22/33 66.7% 242 yards with a very impressive 7.3 YPA and 2 TDs with no picks and a sterling 108.4 QB rating.

That QB even has a dynamic skillset as a passer that forces the defense to defend more of the field and opens plays up for the rest of the team.





Which would you rather have?

CEH
11-07-2011, 04:41 PM
It's possible. It's also possible an over aggressive attacking defense like NYJ gets raped by the added dynamic.

But I digress:

Who do I want? I want Tim Tebow completing 55% - 60% of his passes. I think that is what is best for Denver in order for Tim to provide the most from his skill set. 55% is not even league average so I'm not asking for something any backup can't complete.




Fox and running back Willis McGahee stressed Monday that the passing game will have to get better for the read-option to remain effective. That will be the challenge this week in Kansas City.

I've OD'd on Tebow talk over the last couple days I'm happy they catered to him so we can see more but at this point I'm just going to let it play out

TheReverend
11-07-2011, 05:04 PM
Who do I want? I want Tim Tebow completing 55% - 60% of his passes. I think that is what is best for Denver in order for Tim to provide the most from his skill set. 55% is not even league average so I'm not asking for something any backup can't complete.




Fox and running back Willis McGahee stressed Monday that the passing game will have to get better for the read-option to remain effective. That will be the challenge this week in Kansas City.

I've OD'd on Tebow talk over the last couple days I'm happy they catered to him so we can see more but at this point I'm just going to let it play out

Okay, so the second QB more that meets what you'd like to see out of Tebow then?

elsid13
11-07-2011, 05:37 PM
They put in zone read option plays and call QB draws and OT runs on the regular, so yes, they want Tebow running 10-12 times a game.

Also, Elway is the most sacked QB in NFL history on top of being a run it 5ish times per game QB himself, so he's no stranger to long careers despite big hits.

They are running the ball with Tebow because they are playing to his strengths. Don't confuse a tactical decision with an operational or strategic one.

snowspot66
11-07-2011, 05:44 PM
I think if he gets to 55% consistently he'll be fine. The difference between 55 and 60 is around 1.5 passes per game. He'll more than make up for that with his legs and play making ability. If he ever gets to 60% he'll be one of the scariest QB's in the league to defend.

Jekyll15Hyde
11-07-2011, 06:19 PM
They put in zone read option plays and call QB draws and OT runs on the regular, so yes, they want Tebow running 10-12 times a game.

Also, Elway is the most sacked QB in NFL history on top of being a run it 5ish times per game QB himself, so he's no stranger to long careers despite big hits.

Elway wasn't sacked 10-12 times a game. The point is it becomes mileage on the tires and it all adds up eventually. If he wasn't a 1-trick pony, I would be more optimistic. I have to see something passing. 8')

Jekyll15Hyde
11-07-2011, 06:22 PM
In essence you would count his running plays as passing plays, whenever he gets stuffed you can consider an incomplete pass (same result), when he loses yards you can consider a sack and when he gains yards you can consider a completion (same result), so if he gains positive yardage on 10 of 12 rushes for instance and completes 11 of 23 (a tad below 50%) passes his net success rate is 21 of 35 (60%).

So a run up the middle into the line for 1 yard (our fav Tebow play prior to yesterday) is as good a completion? Is that what you are trying to say?

Lycan
11-07-2011, 06:24 PM
So a run up the middle into the line for 1 yard (our fav Tebow play prior to yesterday) is as good a completion? Is that what you are trying to say?

I would assume that it is just as good as a 1 yard completion.

Broncoman13
11-07-2011, 06:32 PM
So a run up the middle into the line for 1 yard (our fav Tebow play prior to yesterday) is as good a completion? Is that what you are trying to say?

When players on defense start crashing inside and he later takes it outside for 10, 20, or 30 yards.... Yep, its a good thing.

Lestat
11-07-2011, 07:49 PM
this is kinda funny though. fans complained about the run game and once it sparks to live they complain we ran it too much to win against better teams.

Champ is spot on in what he says and it's the nature of humans as fans of sport.

MagicHef
11-07-2011, 07:57 PM
A QB throwing for 70% means that the defense has to devote its resources to ensure there is no lapse in coverage at any point, because that QB is likely to exploit any lapse. This would open up opportunities in the running game that wouldn't exist otherwise.

Similarly, Tebow throwing 50% is enough of a threat between the running and passing that holes like the ones on Sunday for McGahee start to show up.

It's about forcing the defense to choose what to allocate their players for, and hopefully your offense has more threats than the defense can logistically cover.

Dedhed
11-07-2011, 08:06 PM
Similarly, Tebow throwing 50% is enough of a threat between the running and passing that holes like the ones on Sunday for McGahee start to show up.

As do the holes for Decker and Royal on their TD catches.

Jekyll15Hyde
11-07-2011, 08:26 PM
I would assume that it is just as good as a 1 yard completion.

Except that a 1yd completion is generally not a good thing outside of converting a 1st down, etc. A good measure for passing, amongst other things, is YPA and 1 yd isnt good. For running, YPR is 5 and this isnt good by that metric. So to let it boost his completion percentage artificially isnt valid IMO.

I get the idea of where this concept is trying to get to but any gain on a rush is over-inflating it.

At the end of the day, once the D respects his passing, will we be able to not criticize this (as much). And until then, I am not sold

Garcia Bronco
11-07-2011, 08:29 PM
Get Willis in the game more. Tim feels comfortable with him.

Lycan
11-07-2011, 08:30 PM
Except that a 1yd completion is generally not a good thing outside of converting a 1st down, etc. A good measure for passing, amongst other things, is YPA and 1 yd isnt good. For running, YPR is 5 and this isnt good by that metric. So to let it boost his completion percentage artificially isnt valid IMO.

I get the idea of where this concept is trying to get to but any gain on a rush is over-inflating it.

At the end of the day, once the D respects his passing, will we be able to not criticize this (as much). And until then, I am not sold


I wasn't saying it was good. I don't think anyone loves 1 yard gains, outside of 1 yard to go situations.

I was just saying a yard is a yard and I don't really care how we get them.

Garcia Bronco
11-07-2011, 08:32 PM
Elway wasn't sacked 10-12 times a game. The point is it becomes mileage on the tires and it all adds up eventually. If he wasn't a 1-trick pony, I would be more optimistic. I have to see something passing. 8')

Yet he's the most sacked QB ever, or at least he was when he retired.

epicSocialism4tw
11-07-2011, 08:35 PM
Yet he's the most sacked QB ever, or at least he was when he retired.

Oops.

TheReverend
11-07-2011, 08:52 PM
Yet he's the most sacked QB ever, or at least he was when he retired.

Yeah he made that post in RESPONSE to:

They put in zone read option plays and call QB draws and OT runs on the regular, so yes, they want Tebow running 10-12 times a game.

Also, Elway is the most sacked QB in NFL history on top of being a run it 5ish times per game QB himself, so he's no stranger to long careers despite big hits.

Maybe he didn't bother reading what he replied to?

Jekyll15Hyde
11-07-2011, 09:08 PM
Yeah he made that post in RESPONSE to:



Maybe he didn't bother reading what he replied to?

I did and 10-12 is over 100% more than 5ish. In a thread where we are talking about a 10-20% higher completion percentage, no less. :~ohyah!:

Its fine if you want so say he can handle it but your are advocating something that hasn't been done before. Dont get all excited if people dont have blind faith that it can happen as that is all you are going on

t-diddy
11-07-2011, 09:17 PM
Bah screw it:

Tebow was 10/21 47.6% 124 yards 5.9 YPA and 2 TDs with no picks for a 98.1 rating

Good showing as a passer, but far from great.

Another QB earlier in the year played at Oakland with a subpar supporting cast and went 22/33 66.7% 242 yards with a very impressive 7.3 YPA and 2 TDs with no picks and a sterling 108.4 QB rating.

That QB even has a dynamic skillset as a passer that forces the defense to defend more of the field and opens plays up for the rest of the team.





Which would you rather have?

I'm interested in the follow up to this...

uplink
11-08-2011, 08:53 AM
Tebow is now 3-3 on a team that has been loosing quite a lot over the last few years. All 3 wins have been 4th quarter comebacks.

CEH
11-08-2011, 08:54 AM
They put in zone read option plays and call QB draws and OT runs on the regular, so yes, they want Tebow running 10-12 times a game.

Also, Elway is the most sacked QB in NFL history on top of being a run it 5ish times per game QB himself, so he's no stranger to long careers despite big hits.

Someone with NFL Rewind can verify, Tebow was hit 17 times on Sunday contrast to Drew Brees who was only hit 3 times. Why is it that we have to go to a 2 back running back by commitee because of the pounding these guys take yet we want Tebow to get hit 17 times a game?

Simple question. Do you want Tebow your starting QB hit 17 times per game?

The minute you tuck the ball away and become a runner I bet the rules for a QB are thrown out the window and he will take more abuse than say the standard NFL QB

This in a nutshell is why I think Tebow needs to be better from pocket

TheReverend
11-08-2011, 09:00 AM
I'm interested in the follow up to this...

The mystery second QB was

















Also Tim Tebow. It was the same exact game, in fact, just with his rushing numbers figured into his passing stats. He's a non-conventional QB so it's senseless to judge and compare him with conventional statistics. A 10 yard pass for a first down or a 10 yard scramble? Who cares, as long as we move the chains. Not to mention the unconventional play forces defenses to play him and the rest of the team differently.

TheReverend
11-08-2011, 09:01 AM
Someone with NFL Rewind can verify, Tebow was hit 17 times on Sunday contrast to Drew Brees who was only hit 3 times. Why is it that we have to go to a 2 back running back by commitee because of the pounding these guys take yet we want Tebow to get hit 17 times a game?

Simple question. Do you want Tebow your starting QB hit 17 times per game?

The minute you tuck the ball away and become a runner I bet the rules for a QB are thrown out the window and he will take more abuse than say the standard NFL QB

This in a nutshell is why I think Tebow needs to be better from pocket

While I agree with the basic premise that I don't want him taking that much punishment on the whole: As far as hits are concerned, I'm more concerned about the sacks than when he tucks and runs it.

Dedhed
11-08-2011, 09:20 AM
I did and 10-12 is over 100% more than 5ish. In a thread where we are talking about a 10-20% higher completion percentage, no less. :~ohyah!:

Its fine if you want so say he can handle it but your are advocating something that hasn't been done before. Dont get all excited if people dont have blind faith that it can happen as that is all you are going on

Tebow was sacked twice on Sunday. Quick name the two most sacked QBs of 2009. GO.

Dedhed
11-08-2011, 09:21 AM
While I agree with the basic premise that I don't want him taking that much punishment on the whole: As far as hits are concerned, I'm more concerned about the sacks than when he tucks and runs it.

I agree. The hits he has taken in the pocket have been far more punishing than those when he's a runner.

jhns
11-08-2011, 09:27 AM
While I agree with the basic premise that I don't want him taking that much punishment on the whole: As far as hits are concerned, I'm more concerned about the sacks than when he tucks and runs it.

Elway said exactly this when asked about it. He said he always felt much safer outside the pocket.

t-diddy
11-08-2011, 09:35 AM
The mystery second QB was


Also Tim Tebow. It was the same exact game, in fact, just with his rushing numbers figured into his passing stats. He's a non-conventional QB so it's senseless to judge and compare him with conventional statistics. A 10 yard pass for a first down or a 10 yard scramble? Who cares, as long as we move the chains. Not to mention the unconventional play forces defenses to play him and the rest of the team differently.

Ahhhh... tricky tricky!

You are right though... he has to be evaluated differently.

baja
11-08-2011, 09:59 AM
I agree. The hits he has taken in the pocket have been far more punishing than those when he's a runner.

Many of them were clear penalties but were ignored. I guess a QB known as a running QB gets less protection in the pocket from the refs.

CEH
11-08-2011, 10:08 AM
While I agree with the basic premise that I don't want him taking that much punishment on the whole: As far as hits are concerned, I'm more concerned about the sacks than when he tucks and runs it.

22/33 66.7% 242 yards

How about 15/27 (55%) for 190 yard (7 ypa) and 6 rushes for 50 yards? I want to convert those one and two yard scrambles to 1 or 2 yard passes and maybe let an Eddie Royal try to break a tackle.

I say a hit is a hit and the more times you are hit the higher the odds of injury. If you are out in the middle of the field with the ball in your hand you have 11 guys coming from every angle and it's just a matter of time before he takes a big hit and is out with a cracked rib. I don't think his ribs are tougher than any other player in the NFL.

I don't get this sentiment of being out of the pocket and being hit more than the usual QB is OK with Elway. Could be wrong only next year will tell us if the spread option is the future. Right now it's the best way to keep the offense on schedule and continue to let Tebow develop.

CEH
11-08-2011, 10:09 AM
Many of them were clear penalties but were ignored. I guess a QB known as a running QB gets less protection in the pocket from the refs.

^^^ Add this to my last post

peacepipe
11-08-2011, 10:18 AM
Many of them were clear penalties but were ignored. I guess a QB known as a running QB gets less protection in the pocket from the refs.

90% of RTP penalties are BS anyway. how many hits were in the pocket as opposed hits that happened when he left the pocket in scramble.

OABB
11-08-2011, 10:19 AM
It's possible. It's also possible an over aggressive attacking defense like NYJ gets raped by the added dynamic.

But I digress:

The one that wins.



Edit:didnt quote the question because you quoted it.....

baja
11-08-2011, 10:45 AM
90% of RTP penalties are BS anyway. how many hits were in the pocket as opposed hits that happened when he left the pocket in scramble.

I suggest you rewatch the game. One hit was as Tebow was releasing the ball and he got clocked by a player leading with his helmet right under the chin. That would have been a penalty on any ball carrier let alone a QB passing from the pocket. There were several other incidences that would have been called on the Bradys of the game. Just watch the game again.

What pisses me off is Fox never complained once not once.

Tebow just took it time and time again got up and went on to the next play. Many QBs would have whined to the officials or at least pointed it out. I'm not saying every hit was a late hit or roughing the passer type hit but many of them were.

TheReverend
11-08-2011, 11:34 AM
22/33 66.7% 242 yards

How about 15/27 (55%) for 190 yard (7 ypa) and 6 rushes for 50 yards?

What?

I want to convert those one and two yard scrambles to 1 or 2 yard passes and maybe let an Eddie Royal try to break a tackle.

...okay? Then I want to convert those shovel passes into 30 yard QB keepers?

What's your point? And when has Eddie ever broken a tackle? lol

lonestar
11-08-2011, 11:41 AM
Just saying, last 21 minutes of the game Tim did not throw a pass. Will that work all season. Who knows. Kinda what Champ is saying worked today.

Consistency. When you get a guy open in the NFL, you have to make those throws like JT was open down near the 10.

3rd down was not good 4/12. I know one was called back and two other we were put in a bad position due to holding.

The evaluation process continues which is a good thing and. Nice TD throws. I'm encouraged. Still don't think your QB can run for 100 yards and be successful over 16 games but if he can make the normal throws and keep the chanins moving it then it becomes a double edge sword and a weapon.

The whole idea is to not throw passes in the second half. To be able to run the clock down to ZIP. Control the clock.

Now will it be consistent is the $64,000 question. ( let's see if anyone gets that).

peacepipe
11-08-2011, 11:46 AM
I suggest you rewatch the game. One hit was as Tebow was releasing the ball and he got clocked by a player leading with his helmet right under the chin. That would have been a penalty on any ball carrier let alone a QB passing from the pocket. There were several other incidences that would have been called on the Bradys of the game. Just watch the game again.

What pisses me off is Fox never complained once not once.

Tebow just took it time and time again got up and went on to the next play. Many QBs would have whined to the officials or at least pointed it out. I'm not saying every hit was a late hit or roughing the passer type hit but many of them were.

vick was whinning about this during the 1st few games of the season. It has no real merit. if a defender hit tebow well after the throw than yes,but as he releases the ball is just sound football. if it was a blatant helmet to helmet hit than yes.

baja
11-08-2011, 12:03 PM
vick was whinning about this during the 1st few games of the season. It has no real merit. if a defender hit tebow well after the throw than yes,but as he releases the ball is just sound football. if it was a blatant helmet to helmet hit than yes.

It was helmet to helmet (under the chin actually)

You would really need to re watch the game to have any kind of informed discussion about this.

There were several plays where a flag could have been thrown and would have if it were most other QBs. There appears to have been a bias toward Tebow, at least in Oakland.

baja
11-08-2011, 12:10 PM
Just last night Cutler got a call that was mild compared to many of the hits on Tebow.

I'm all for letting them play but Tebow is not getting the calls other QBs routinely do.

peacepipe
11-08-2011, 12:20 PM
It was helmet to helmet (under the chin actually)

You would really need to re watch the game to have any kind of informed discussion about this.

There were several plays where a flag could have been thrown and would have if it were most other QBs. There appears to have been a bias toward Tebow, at least in Oakland.

as I stated,blatant hd -hd,under the chin is in the gray area.

CEH
11-08-2011, 12:25 PM
What?



...okay? Then I want to convert those shovel passes into 30 yard QB keepers?

What's your point? And when has Eddie ever broken a tackle? lol

I raised Tebow's completion % to 55% and deduced his rushes and still left the yardage. Basically completee more passes run less.

I do not want Tebow running 11 times. I want him to complete more passes. Been saying it for awhile now (55% not that outragous to ask him to be a average NFL passer)

Watch what happens. We will not be running this spread as our primary offense. If Tebow can't throw from the pocket he will be replaced next year

Rohirrim
11-08-2011, 12:29 PM
Never mind. I do not want Tebow running 11 times. Period end of story for me

Watch what happens. We will not be running this spread as our primary offense. If Tebow can't throw from the pocket he will be replaced next year

Probably true. Elway made the announcement that, "You win championships from the pocket." That's where the bar is set.

epicSocialism4tw
11-08-2011, 12:44 PM
Probably true. Elway made the announcement that, "You win championships from the pocket." That's where the bar is set.

Elway's Broncos won championships running the ball down the other teams' throats.

I'd rather have an old-school smashmouth club that knocks the other teams' face in the dirt than a modern prissy passing game.

lonestar
11-08-2011, 01:29 PM
Elway's Broncos won championships running the ball down the other teams' throats.

I'd rather have an old-school smashmouth club that knocks the other teams' face in the dirt than a modern prissy passing game.

And elways team had atleast four HOF players on it. So when we get the other three I'll worry about the QB.

Myself the old days are done for the foreseeable future the fans have spoken they want a passing game. Lots of scoring running the ball smash mouth unless your Tebow or Vick is boring.

Not sure how Fox got picked as a HC Cause he is really old school.
Hopefully John will whisper in his ear running the ball twice for 2 yards is not enough to win today.

Pick Six
11-08-2011, 01:32 PM
Just last night Cutler got a call that was mild compared to many of the hits on Tebow.

I'm all for letting them play but Tebow is not getting the calls other QBs routinely do.

Tebow has to be willing to make his case for a flag. Cutler does a very good job doing that, Rivers does a very good job, and Plummer used to be very good at selling a "love tap" on the head as something bigger (thus, needing a penalty). I think Tebow's too "nice"...

MplsBronco
11-08-2011, 01:35 PM
Its not being nice. Its that Tebow is a real football player. Only pansies will sit there and cry for borderline plays be flagged. I hate that about Brady and love that Tebow is touch as nails and doesn't going crying to the refs

baja
11-08-2011, 01:37 PM
And elways team had atleast four HOF players on it. So when we get the other three I'll worry about the QB.

Myself the old days are done for the foreseeable future the fans have spoken they want a passing game. Lots of scoring running the ball smash mouth unless your Tebow or Vick is boring.

<b>Not sure how Fox got picked as a HC </b> Cause he is really old school.
Hopefully John will whisper in his ear running the ball twice for 2 yards is not enough to win today.

My guess is the Bowlen factor - he tried the young brash innovative untested guy and failed miserably so given his feble mind his solution was to pick the exact opposite, an old school predictable time tested 60 something coach with no imagination

TheReverend
11-08-2011, 02:57 PM
I raised Tebow's completion % to 55% and deduced his rushes and still left the yardage. Basically completee more passes run less.

...Arbitrarily or...? I don't understand what you're getting at here.

I do not want Tebow running 11 times. I want him to complete more passes. Been saying it for awhile now (55% not that outragous to ask him to be a average NFL passer)

Watch what happens. We will not be running this spread as our primary offense. If Tebow can't throw from the pocket he will be replaced next year

Sorry bud, you're merger two separate conversations in this thread. All I'm talking about is the production and end result.

CEH
11-08-2011, 03:29 PM
...Arbitrarily or...? I don't understand what you're getting at here.



Sorry bud, you're merger two separate conversations in this thread. All I'm talking about is the production and end result.

I was trying to create a metric for what I think I'd like to see out of Tim keeping the end result the same 240 yards and 2 TDs introducing a slightly better completion % something Elway said yesterday he'd like to see out of Tim. Pass more run less. Reshuffling the deck chairs so to speak.


yes you said look at the end result. If the season ended last Sunday, would Elway say wow I'm good with Tim completing less than 50% but when you factor in his rushes I'm good with how Tim plays the QB position so we can say Tebow is the future. I think that is what you are trying to sell.

Anyways, we'll talk more after next game about the QB play. Probably a whole new set of dynamics to discuss

TheReverend
11-08-2011, 03:36 PM
I was trying to create a metric for what I think I'd like to see out of Tim keeping the end result the same 240 yards and 2 TDs introducing a slightly better completion % something Elway said yesterday he'd like to see out of Tim. Pass more run less. Reshuffling the deck chairs so to speak.


yes you said look at the end result. If the season ended last Sunday, would Elway say wow I'm good with Tim completing less than 50% but when you factor in his rushes I'm good with how Tim plays the QB position so we can say Tebow is the future. I think that is what you are trying to sell.

Anyways, we'll talk more after next game about the QB play. Probably a whole new set of dynamics to discuss

No, I'm not trying to sell anything, but I DO absolutely believe the production from scrimmage is what matters. Especially when his legs are also adding another dimension for the defense to defend.

I'd rather he took less hits as well, but I'd rather the hits he does take are running than sacks... like Sunday > Lions game as far as punishment is concerned. And he's also a guy that's played on a broken leg, so I'm not sure it's THAT important.

CEH
11-08-2011, 04:05 PM
No, I'm not trying to sell anything, but I DO absolutely believe the production from scrimmage is what matters. Especially when his legs are also adding another dimension for the defense to defend.

I'd rather he took less hits as well, but I'd rather the hits he does take are running than sacks... like Sunday > Lions game as far as punishment is concerned. And he's also a guy that's played on a broken leg, so I'm not sure it's THAT important.

You are trying to sell it mainly because I'm not buying it because it's the main reason why the NFL doesn't run this type of offense. The health of the QB. Remember his first preseason game? Diving at the goalline.

teknic
11-08-2011, 04:43 PM
What McCoy should be doing is looking at how Pittsburgh used Roethlisberger early in his career. A dominant rushing attack, screens to the rb and wr, bootlegs, and lots of playaction. He also scrambled around for a few yards. We have the offensive players to run a similar style, we're really only missing a physical run-blocking WR and TE. I see the similarities in Tebow and Roethlisberger, and the Steelers were able to ride Ben to 13-0 in the regular season (although the defense probably earned them a few games).

errand
11-08-2011, 04:54 PM
LOL at people in here talaking about Tebow hitting on 55% of his passes...he's gotta learn to hit 50% consistently first don'tcha think?

TheReverend
11-08-2011, 05:04 PM
You are trying to sell it mainly because I'm not buying it because it's the main reason why the NFL doesn't run this type of offense. The health of the QB. Remember his first preseason game? Diving at the goalline.

That's the "main reason why the NFL doesn't run it"?

Not because "Almost all of the QBs can't do it at an NFL level"...?

peacepipe
11-08-2011, 05:09 PM
That's the "main reason why the NFL doesn't run it"?

Not because "Almost all of the QBs can't do it at an NFL level"...?There's quite a few who could.rothlisburger,rogers,vick,young,campbell,rom o
are all QBs that can run it. Tebow does it cause he can't be more than a option QB.

TheReverend
11-08-2011, 05:10 PM
There's quite a few who could.rothlisburger,rogers,vick,young,campbell,rom o
are all QBs that can run it. Tebow does it cause he can't be more than a option QB.

LOL

That was a good one man. I needed that belly laugh, thanks.

peacepipe
11-08-2011, 05:12 PM
Elway's Broncos won championships running the ball down the other teams' throats.

I'd rather have an old-school smashmouth club that knocks the other teams' face in the dirt than a modern prissy passing game.

when was the last time a team like that won a SB?

teknic
11-08-2011, 05:14 PM
when was the last time a team like that won a SB?

2006 Steelers. Arguably the Giants as well, but they made some big passing plays.

peacepipe
11-08-2011, 05:14 PM
LOL

That was a good one man. I needed that belly laugh, thanks.

didn't realize the truth was that funny. as a matter fact they would probably be more affective at it considering they are actually a threat to throw the ball.

peacepipe
11-08-2011, 05:16 PM
2006 Steelers. Arguably the Giants as well, but they made some big passing plays.

did ben sit out that game. yes it was passing that won the SB for the giants.

peacepipe
11-08-2011, 05:17 PM
this isn't college and this isn't 1985. you need an elite QB to win championships.

teknic
11-08-2011, 05:20 PM
did ben sit out that game. yes it was passing that won the SB for the giants.

Ben played that game, and fairly well for what little passing they asked him to do. He did almost lose the game for the Steelers on that fumble in the 4th, but his shoestring tackle saved the game. His statline?

Roethlisberger 9/21 123yd 0TD 2INT , 7 Rushes for 25 and a TD.

Edit: Forgot to mention that 8 of his 9 completions were for first downs.

Tebow has played better than that, so if we can get our run game going like the 2006 Steelers and if our defense keeps the game close, we could have a lethal offense.

peacepipe
11-08-2011, 05:23 PM
Ben played that game, and fairly well for what little passing they asked him to do. He did almost lose the game for the Steelers on that fumble in the 4th, but his shoestring tackle saved the game. His statline?

Roethlisberger 9/21 123yd 0TD 2INT , 7 Rushes for 25 and a TD.

Tebow has played better than that, so if we can get our run game going like the 2006 Steelers and if our defense keeps the game close, we could have a lethal offense.

steelers got lucky,but getting there what was bens contrbution. tebow has to be a passer.

ben also threw for over 3,500 yds that yr.

Hulamau
11-08-2011, 05:25 PM
One of the best things about it (besides beating the Raiders badly on their field) was how hard it must have been to come back from last week.

It ain't easy to be big enough for the moment after the beating Tebow's been taking.

That is a big plus and rightfully earned by Tim, the entire team and the coaching staff this week. Gotta love the resilience!

teknic
11-08-2011, 05:26 PM
steelers got lucky,but getting there what was bens contrbution. tebow has to be a passer.

Ben played like that pretty much the entire season, other than the interceptions. He protected the ball pretty well, scrambled around a lot, ran lots of playaction and only threw 20-25 times a game. The difference was that the defense had to respect Parker, and Ben made his passes count, converting a lot of firsts on his throws. Tebow tries to do the same thing, he goes deep often, trying to make the defense pay (look at his YPA).

peacepipe
11-08-2011, 05:27 PM
Ben played like that pretty much the entire season, other than the interceptions. He protected the ball pretty well, scrambled around a lot, ran lots of playaction and only threw 20-25 times a game. The difference was that the defense had to respect Parker, and Ben made his passes count, converting a lot of firsts on his throws. Tebow tries to do the same thing, he goes deep often, trying to make the defense pay (look at his YPA).Oh ok so you think tebow can give us 3,500+ yds a season.

teknic
11-08-2011, 05:31 PM
Oh ok so you think tebow can give us 3,500+ yds a season.

At this moment in time? No. Likely 2800-3200 if he started for 16 games. You don't have to throw for 3500+ yards to have a successful season. If the rushing attack is for real, we may only have to pass 15-20 times a game to be successful if Tebow is hitting on some deep passes (which have been open).

That being said, Tebow is a work in progress. Fox can protect him with a strong running game, converting 3rd and shorts, instead of throwing 3rd and 10. Let him throw when he's ready. He may never be ready, but at this point, I think he has potential to become a better passer.

Could he be ready to pass for 3500yds next year? Quite possibly. It depends how he develops.

mkporter
11-08-2011, 06:13 PM
LOL at people in here talaking about Tebow hitting on 55% of his passes...he's gotta learn to hit 50% consistently first don'tcha think?

Yeah, it's not like there are lots of examples of QB's raising their completion percentage as they accumulate experience. Certainly not by 8-9%. Talk about lunacy.

Uhh

snowspot66
11-08-2011, 06:16 PM
Yeah, it's not like there are lots of examples of QB's raising their completion percentage as they accumulate experience. Certainly not by 8-9%. Talk about lunacy.

Uhh

Also, considering he was around a 68% in college he obviously can hit the passes. More goes into a pass completion than just the QB's arm.

TheReverend
11-08-2011, 06:20 PM
Also, considering he was around a 68% in college he obviously can hit the passes. More goes into a pass completion than just the QB's arm.

Like Royal dropping a few? Demaryius Thomas still not even trying? And a few low % end zone shots before the half? GASP!

mkporter
11-08-2011, 06:27 PM
Like Royal dropping a few? Demaryius Thomas still not even trying? And a few low % end zone shots before the half? GASP!

Yes, but we definitely cannot envision a scenario where he might get more comfortable in the pocket, do a better job recognizing coverages and going through his progressions. It has never been done.

peacepipe
11-08-2011, 06:47 PM
At this moment in time? No. Likely 2800-3200 if he started for 16 games. You don't have to throw for 3500+ yards to have a successful season. If the rushing attack is for real, we may only have to pass 15-20 times a game to be successful if Tebow is hitting on some deep passes (which have been open).

That being said, Tebow is a work in progress. Fox can protect him with a strong running game, converting 3rd and shorts, instead of throwing 3rd and 10. Let him throw when he's ready. He may never be ready, but at this point, I think he has potential to become a better passer.

Could he be ready to pass for 3500yds next year? Quite possibly. It depends how he develops.He won't be here next year,but good teams will shut down the running game.

snowspot66
11-08-2011, 06:52 PM
He won't be here next year,but good teams will shut down the running game.

Who's going to replace him? He gets two or three more wins and we'll be picking in the mid to late teens based on our strength of schedule. If he gets us to 8-8 he'll have earned another year outright in the court of public opinion.

Simple Jake
11-08-2011, 09:13 PM
You must have been in a coma during the entire 2006 season.

I was