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View Full Version : What players have lived up to their big money contract?


Powderaddict
11-03-2011, 05:32 AM
Some have complained about EFX's lack of a big free agent signining this past offseason. I'm a bit confused by it as well. That got me thinking about Bowlen, and his apparent cheapness. In the past Denver threw tons of money at free agents, so something has changed. Either Bowlen is unable, or he is unwilling to pay big money.

If he's unable, well, not much can be done about that. Maybe extreme fiscal responsibility for a few years and let the coffers build back up.

If he is unwilling, I can understand why that might be. How many big money contracts have worked out for Denver? Look at some of the players Shanahan threw big money at: Dale Carter, Daryl Gardner, Travis Henry, the list goes on. If Bowlen is reluctant to pull the trigger, can you really blame him? Dumervil has what 0 sacks from signing his big contract?

So who do you think has lived up to the big money there were paid?

I come up with: Kuper.

Bailey maybe, but I'm not convinced the CB position in general is worth that kind of money. If it is, Champ would be the second name on my list. But I'm not sold on any CB being worth it, you can remove the impact of a great CB.

All that said, I would pay Clady handsomely to retain him, and offer Bunkley a market value extension as well.

tsiguy96
11-03-2011, 05:35 AM
imagine where this team would be without champ. they are bad, but they could be far, far worse on defense right now.

Rabb
11-03-2011, 05:47 AM
imagine where this team would be without champ. they are bad, but they could be far, far worse on defense right now.

was just thinking this

obviously he missed the Cassius Vaughn games

Drek
11-03-2011, 06:05 AM
Some have complained about EFX's lack of a big free agent signining this past offseason. I'm a bit confused by it as well. That got me thinking about Bowlen, and his apparent cheapness. In the past Denver threw tons of money at free agents, so something has changed. Either Bowlen is unable, or he is unwilling to pay big money.
We've been bottom ten in real cash spent for years. All these big contracts you talk about were small on salary in the front end, big on salary in the back so they'd look bigger than they actually are. We'd throw a reasonable signing bonus on it knowing that if we cut the guy we could stretch it out and avoid most of the hit.

We've been a robbing Peter to pay Paul organization for a solid decade now.

Also, the lack of big FA signings isn't this team's problem. It was the lack of any significant roster turnover in a market flush with young, worthwhile talent to invest in. We could have remade this roster from a talent standpoint overnight simply by signing other team's quality backups with the promise of real competition for starting jobs.

If he's unable, well, not much can be done about that. Maybe extreme fiscal responsibility for a few years and let the coffers build back up.
Or he can get his ass out of the owner's seat like a responsible steward of this franchise would.

If he is unwilling, I can understand why that might be. How many big money contracts have worked out for Denver? Look at some of the players Shanahan threw big money at: Dale Carter, Daryl Gardner, Travis Henry, the list goes on. If Bowlen is reluctant to pull the trigger, can you really blame him? Dumervil has what 0 sacks from signing his big contract?
That isn't a problem with signing FAs. That is a problem with how our organization has made those decisions for the past several years.

Bailey maybe, but I'm not convinced the CB position in general is worth that kind of money. If it is, Champ would be the second name on my list. But I'm not sold on any CB being worth it, you can remove the impact of a great CB.

1. How exactly do you remove the impact of a great CB? Throw away from him? You're sacrificing 1/3rd of the field if you do that, severely limiting your passing game and playing into the hands of any good DC. Who is the best player on the Jets defense? When the Raiders were a top 10 D the last couple years who was their best defender? If you run **** right a shutdown corner is the only one man solution to let a defense start dictating how the offense plays.

2. Also, a CB like Champ you is a stout run defender is a massive asset as well. You only get 11 guys on the field and generally you're forced to start players who are deficient in at least a few aspects. Most commonly CBs who can't tackle or are at least a liability in run defense. We've been spoiled with an all world cover corner who can also play the run better than most of the LBs we've had on our roster during his time here.

BroncoBuff
11-03-2011, 06:22 AM
imagine where this team would be without champ. they are bad, but they could be far, far worse on defense right now.

Worse? How much worse, in practical terms ... 1-6?

Re-signing Champ was a mistake ... this roster is in the midst of a ground-floor-up rebuild, Champ is superfluous. His money would've been far better spent on a MLB and DT, Brandon Mebane.

2KBack
11-03-2011, 06:35 AM
Worse? How much worse, in practical terms ... 1-6?

Re-signing Champ was a mistake ... this roster is in the midst of a ground-floor-up rebuild, Champ is superfluous. His money would've been far better spent on a MLB and DT, Brandon Mebane.

I disagree. This defenses current biggest liabilities are in the secondary. there are holes everywhere....but corner is equally as glaring as the dline and would be by far the weakest unit without champ

BroncoBuff
11-03-2011, 06:59 AM
I disagree. This defenses current biggest liabilities are in the secondary. there are holes everywhere....but corner is equally as glaring as the dline and would be by far the weakest unit without champ

Your reasoning is fine for a team with playoff aspirations, a team for which every W matters. This is not that team. In fact, wins are in all reality long-term counter-productive.

By the time we're playoff contenders, Champ will be an overpaid free safety, and our DTs will suck for the 10th straight season.

jhns
11-03-2011, 07:03 AM
Worse? How much worse, in practical terms ... 1-6?

Re-signing Champ was a mistake ... this roster is in the midst of a ground-floor-up rebuild, Champ is superfluous. His money would've been far better spent on a MLB and DT, Brandon Mebane.

It isn't like we are near the cap... We actually have to start spending more on players in the next season or two, whenever the cap floor starts. Champ is still one of the best in the game. This team has given away far too much talent the past two and a half years. Why would you want to give away even more talent?

jhns
11-03-2011, 07:03 AM
Worse? How much worse, in practical terms ... 1-6?

Re-signing Champ was a mistake ... this roster is in the midst of a ground-floor-up rebuild, Champ is superfluous. His money would've been far better spent on a MLB and DT, Brandon Mebane.

It isn't like we are near the cap... We actually have to start spending more on players in the next season or two, whenever the cap floor starts. Champ is still one of the best in the game. This team has given away far too much talent the past two and a half years. Why would you want to give away even more talent?

vonqkilla
11-03-2011, 07:04 AM
John Elway said all we have to do is win in oak and kc and we are right back in it! Lol

BroncoBuff
11-03-2011, 07:04 AM
No pain, no gain ......



http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/6453/cowboysw.png

TheReverend
11-03-2011, 07:07 AM
I'm not convinced the CB position in general is worth that kind of money. If it is, Champ would be the second name on my list. But I'm not sold on any CB being worth it, you can remove the impact of a great CB.

Where the hell do people get this from?

BroncoBuff
11-03-2011, 07:14 AM
It isn't like we are near the cap... We actually have to start spending more on players in the next season or two, whenever the cap floor starts. Champ is still one of the best in the game. This team has given away far too much talent the past two and a half years. Why would you want to give away even more talent?


Okay, makes sense. But then we must move boldly in free agency: Courtland Finnegan ... Abreu Franklin ... Barrett Ruud. Young and talented.

And trade/release Dawkins, Orton.

BroncoBuff
11-03-2011, 07:19 AM
Actually Abreu Franklin's too old for this roster. Who are some good young free agent-to-be DTs?

TheReverend
11-03-2011, 07:19 AM
Okay, makes sense. But then we must move boldly in free agency: Courtland Finnegan ... Abreu Franklin ... Barrett Ruud. Young and talented.

And trade/release Dawkins, Orton.

Why do you hate the "this post has been edited" notification so much?

BroncoBuff
11-03-2011, 07:24 AM
Oh, see, dees is a problem for me. No not OCD, I'm just weird-ish like that.

Very observant of you though. I have to move quickly to re-post, lest somebody respond to the tainted offering ... that boxes me in, and can in fact ruin my day.











j/k

jhns
11-03-2011, 07:42 AM
Okay, makes sense. But then we must move boldly in free agency: Courtland Finnegan ... Abreu Franklin ... Barrett Ruud. Young and talented.

And trade/release Dawkins, Orton.

I agree. I wanted Ruud this year. I was surprised that he was drawing so little intrest. I would get rid of Orton. I would consider keeping Dawkins and just using him in a reduced, 4th LB type roles, if he is cheap enough. He doesn't need to be in on passing downs.

Powderaddict
11-03-2011, 07:47 AM
Where the hell do people get this from?

I'm not saying Denver is better without Champ than with him. He's obviously an elite player at the position. And he without a doubt makes the defense better.

But take his salary just for this year. This site shows $6 mill base, $5.5 mill bonuses:

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/denver-broncos/champ-bailey/

Could we have signed 2-3 impact players for 11.5 million?

I love Bailey and love having him as a Bronco. But we've had him for years. And many of those were historically bad defenses? Obviously Bailey was not a problem on those defenses. Please donít try and say Iím saying that. But what I am saying is that the resources sunk into 1 CB might be used on several other players.

I agree that drafting is the biggest issue on defense. We need to draft better. But what I am saying is that weíve paid Champ a TON of money Ė and still have been in the bottom defenses for years. Has the huge contract made a difference? Without him, would the defense be even worse than 32nd? If that money were invested in other positions (DT, MLB, and maybe a decent CB) would we have been worse than 32nd? Or maybe a bit better?

Please donít think Iím saying Champ isnít a great CB or a great Bronco. This isnít about Champ Ė itís about huge contracts not leading to success on the field. He was an example of someone Iím on the fence on, not one I think doesnít live up to it.

TheReverend
11-03-2011, 07:58 AM
I'm not saying Denver is better without Champ than with him. He's obviously an elite player at the position. And he without a doubt makes the defense better.

But take his salary just for this year. This site shows $6 mill base, $5.5 mill bonuses:

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/denver-broncos/champ-bailey/

Could we have signed 2-3 impact players for 11.5 million?

I love Bailey and love having him as a Bronco. But we've had him for years. And many of those were historically bad defenses? Obviously Bailey was not a problem on those defenses. Please donít try and say Iím saying that. But what I am saying is that the resources sunk into 1 CB might be used on several other players.

I agree that drafting is the biggest issue on defense. We need to draft better. But what I am saying is that weíve paid Champ a TON of money Ė and still have been in the bottom defenses for years. Has the huge contract made a difference? Without him, would the defense be even worse than 32nd? If that money were invested in other positions (DT, MLB, and maybe a decent CB) would we have been worse than 32nd? Or maybe a bit better?

Please donít think Iím saying Champ isnít a great CB or a great Bronco. This isnít about Champ Ė itís about huge contracts not leading to success on the field. He was an example of someone Iím on the fence on, not one I think doesnít live up to it.

First of all, you're changing your argument from the OP.

Secondly, it's hands down one of the most important important positions in football...

Elway himself ranks it #4 behind QB, LT and edge pass rusher:

http://blogs.denverpost.com/broncos/2011/09/06/john-elways-blueprint-for-building-a-broncos-winner/9320/

4. Cover cornerbacks

ďI just believe the coverage and the rush go hand in hand. The way you give quarterbacks fits is to get their receivers under wraps and to make them uncomfortable in the pocket.Ē

You also didn't bother to try and explain how the impact "can be removed"? I'd love to hear this.

DenverBroncosJM
11-03-2011, 07:59 AM
I'm not sure what champ's salary has to do with Mebane. We had the money to sign him and went cheap. That has no bearing on what champ or tuten or anyone makes we didn't want to pay him when we should have

Requiem
11-03-2011, 08:22 AM
Worse? How much worse, in practical terms ... 1-6?

Re-signing Champ was a mistake ... this roster is in the midst of a ground-floor-up rebuild, Champ is superfluous. His money would've been far better spent on a MLB and DT, Brandon Mebane.

Yet you believe Elvis, 5'11 -- 250 DE, who is terrible at run contain, hasn't been healthy in a year and a half or finished a play (sack) in that amount of time deserved 14 million a year?

Hilarious!

BroncoBuff
11-03-2011, 08:23 AM
I'm not sure what champ's salary has to do with Mebane. We had the money to sign him and went cheap. That has no bearing on what champ or tuten or anyone makes we didn't want to pay him when we should have

Okay then, don't link them. Same reasoning for me ... we should have signed some good young free agents, and Champ is superfluous here.

Geez, I've advocated cutting Champ and trading Clady ... both in the last hour. I guess it's true: Rebuild means rebuild.

Requiem
11-03-2011, 08:30 AM
Geez, I've advocated cutting Champ and trading Clady ... both in the last hour. I guess it's true: Rebuild means rebuild.

What you are advocating is lunacy.

BroncoBuff
11-03-2011, 08:36 AM
Yet you believe Elvis, 5'11 -- 250 DE, who is terrible at run contain, hasn't been healthy in a year and a half or finished a play (sack) in that amount of time deserved 14 million a year?

Hilarious!

Req, I don't wanna rehash the whole Elvis-is-too-small topic. He's obviously not too small, he led the team in sacks each of his first 4 seasons. It's just seven games into the season. Paaatience, grasshoppa.

Pass rush talks, run support walks.

BroncoBuff
11-03-2011, 08:37 AM
What you are advocating is lunacy.

BORDER-line lunacy. Don't forget the "borderline" part.

Requiem
11-03-2011, 08:42 AM
Req, I don't wanna rehash the whole Elvis-is-too-small topic. He's obviously not too small, he led the team in sacks each of his first 4 seasons. It's just seven games into the season. Paaatience, grasshoppa.

Pass rush talks, run support walks.

How is his pass rushing talking these days? He has zero sacks since he was signed to his ludicrous contract.

Run support matters. The Denver Broncos defense isn't going to be successful when the opposing ball club runs to the outside for 6-8 yards every hand off. Elvis has never been conducive to an effective long-term defense.

Powderaddict
11-03-2011, 09:51 AM
First of all, you're changing your argument from the OP.

Secondly, it's hands down one of the most important important positions in football...

Elway himself ranks it #4 behind QB, LT and edge pass rusher:

http://blogs.denverpost.com/broncos/2011/09/06/john-elways-blueprint-for-building-a-broncos-winner/9320/

4. Cover cornerbacks

ďI just believe the coverage and the rush go hand in hand. The way you give quarterbacks fits is to get their receivers under wraps and to make them uncomfortable in the pocket.Ē

You also didn't bother to try and explain how the impact "can be removed"? I'd love to hear this.

Run the ball, throw at WR's covered by other CB's.

And salaray cap and budget are 2 different things. The salary cap may be 120 mill for example, but if EFX is given a cash budget of 100 mill, they don't have the space available provided by being under the salary cap.

I love Champ and think he's great for the team. Like I said in my OP (maybe not clearly), Champ would be second on my list as having recieved a big contract and lived up to it, right next to Kuper. So I have one definately, and one likely. I just think there's some room to debate the effectiveness of Champ's position (not player) compared to his contract (one great CB makes 1 CB position better, a great pass rush makes all CB's better IMO).

I'll put it this way:

Kuper - yes, lived up to his big contract.
Bailey - yes, most likely lived up to his contract, but some room for debate.

Who else would you add as having lived up to their big contract?

TheReverend
11-03-2011, 09:53 AM
Run the ball,

Stacked boxes, contain, taking away the stretch, toss, sweep, etc

throw at WR's covered by other CB's.

Rolled coverage, extra blitz freedom, bracketing, etc

Powderaddict
11-03-2011, 09:54 AM
How is his pass rushing talking these days? He has zero sacks since he was signed to his ludicrous contract.

Run support matters. The Denver Broncos defense isn't going to be successful when the opposing ball club runs to the outside for 6-8 yards every hand off. Elvis has never been conducive to an effective long-term defense.

And, to kind of argue against myself, one reason I move Champ into "likely worth the contract" is in spite of playing CB, from that position he is GREAT in run support. That is an exception to the position, not a typical expectation.

Powderaddict
11-03-2011, 09:56 AM
Stacked boxes, contain, taking away the stretch, toss, sweep, etc



Rolled coverage, extra blitz freedom, bracketing, etc

I've already given you Champ - who else besides the two examples has been worth a huge contract?

Could that be one reason why the FO is reluctant to spend a ton in free agency?