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View Full Version : OrangeMane Podcast - Episode 11 - vs. Detroit


Taco John
11-01-2011, 09:32 PM
Download Episode 11 - Week 8 vs. Detroit (http://k003.kiwi6.com/hotlink/id807eh6aw/111101_orangemanepodcast_11.mp3)
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http://k003.kiwi6.com/hotlink/id807eh6aw/111101_orangemanepodcast_11.mp3

Dagmar
11-01-2011, 09:34 PM
http://thumbs.newschoolers.com/index.php?src=http://i53.tinypic.com/kdnbpk.gif&size=400x1000

TDmvp
11-01-2011, 09:45 PM
:griese::puff: http://www.4smileys.com/smileys/computer-smileys/computer_smiley26.gif

TDmvp
11-01-2011, 10:15 PM
15:00 mark ...

Yea I totally couldn't understand the lack of screens. I won't bash the overall play calling because who knows why they call what they call at this point and I'm sure others will...

But the screens... I always thought you almost would start running them out of necessity at some point in games where your line/protections are getting killed. I mean sure you call them at your own leisure as well but all my life when teams are getting smoked up front on O you always hear the guys in the booth talk about the team needing to call some screens to HELP out their line.

It's like whoever calls the plays for us refuses to adapt to what is happening on the field.
A little Mike Martzish in ways. A little to much I'm CALLING THIS !!!! and I don't care what I've seen all game or what has worked and hasn't.

It's like they don't even understand paper, rock, scissors sometimes...

Bronco Yoda
11-02-2011, 03:29 AM
For sure the protection schemes and match ups on Defense befuddle me. The lack of any max protection on the other side of the ball I bet supervised everyone as well. I know it did me. I expected screen city out there this week.

At this point all I can come up with is we are still in FULL evaluation mode. We're still not really game planning at all IMO at this point in time. It's like back in High School when the coach would call out the plays to the Defense to really see who could beat who one on one match ups.

It's trial by fire, sink or swim for many players right now. Who said we were going to have abbreviated training camps & no OTA's this year???? Fox obviously didn't get that memo because we're still in ours! Will the season ever really start for us this year? Who the hell knows.

No help, no masking, no scheming. Just beat your guy one on one or pack your bags in January.

We're stuck in perpetual preseason mode. I just hope that it's all worth it in the end. That we can really nail down what moves are needed in the off season and the FO is willing to do it.

Some may view it as setting players up to fail. And in a real sense... it is. But for evaluation purposes not some twisted machiavellian conspiracy. I get it.... but it's damn frustrating to watch knowing everyone else is playing football while we're still practicing....

TheReverend
11-02-2011, 07:55 AM
This was a fun for me due to such a broad range of topics.

TheReverend
11-02-2011, 07:56 AM
PS. TJ battled through the flu to bring this to you fruits so you better listen and thank him.

TheDave
11-02-2011, 08:01 AM
As always good job folks...

One thing i do not understand... why are people calling for screens?

With man coverage, 8 in the box and a spy on Tebow, i don't see how a screen would have been successful. Unless of course we were looking to set up some 3rd and 12's.

jhns
11-02-2011, 08:05 AM
As always good job folks...

One thing i do not understand... why are people calling for screens?

With man coverage, 8 in the box and a spy on Tebow, i don't see how a screen would have been successful. Unless of course we were looking to set up some 3rd and 12's.

They brought 6+ guys a lot. That is exactly what a screen is meant to counter. They didn't play a spy alk the time. You are asking a question and acting like they ran the same play all game. That is just not a good argument. In fact, it is an extremely lazy and irrational argument.

TheReverend
11-02-2011, 08:13 AM
As always good job folks...

One thing i do not understand... why are people calling for screens?

With man coverage, 8 in the box and a spy on Tebow, i don't see how a screen would have been successful. Unless of course we were looking to set up some 3rd and 12's.

They brought 6+ guys a lot. That is exactly what a screen is meant to counter. They didn't play a spy alk the time. You are asking a question and acting like they ran the same play all game. That is just not a good argument. In fact, it is an extremely lazy and irrational argument.

^ Actually that

To emphasize the point. If you look back on his seven sacks and just stop the frame a second into the play, you're usually counting 7 Lions vs 5 Broncos :/ And TWO of those Broncos are Franklin and Beadles so it's more like 7 v 3. I think there was only one sack play with 5 of less rushers and off-hand I believe it was one of the Avril plays.

The "8 in the box stopping the run" is just a fallacy and our rushing total with Moreno and Lance Ball proves it.

BroncoInferno
11-02-2011, 08:14 AM
As always good job folks...

One thing i do not understand... why are people calling for screens?

With man coverage, 8 in the box and a spy on Tebow, i don't see how a screen would have been successful. Unless of course we were looking to set up some 3rd and 12's.

I remember at least one screen that was called and Detroit sniffed it out. Tebow had to throw it in the dirt. Someone (Beadles, I believe) was flagged for blocking downfield. Just because the opponent is blitzing a lot does not mean a screen is going to work if the blitzers properly diagnose the play.

TheReverend
11-02-2011, 08:18 AM
I remember at least one screen that was called and Detroit sniffed it out. Tebow had to throw it in the dirt. Someone (Beadles, I believe) was flagged for blocking downfield. Just because the opponent is blitzing a lot does not mean a screen is going to work if the blitzers properly diagnose the play.

http://forgifs.com/gallery/d/193499-1/Don-Johnson-shades.gif

TheDave
11-02-2011, 08:25 AM
^ Actually that

To emphasize the point. If you look back on his seven sacks and just stop the frame a second into the play, you're usually counting 7 Lions vs 5 Broncos :/ And TWO of those Broncos are Franklin and Beadles so it's more like 7 v 3. I think there was only one sack play with 5 of less rushers and off-hand I believe it was one of the Avril plays.

The lions absolutely stacked the box and kept people around the LOS watching for the scramble or screen. The game plan was to make him stay in the pocket and make his reads.

Seriously watch a few series and count how many times there are 7+ lions within 3-4 yards of the LOS. This wasn't about the pass rush it was about containing him.

TheReverend
11-02-2011, 09:09 AM
The lions absolutely stacked the box and kept people around the LOS watching for the scramble or screen. The game plan was to make him stay in the pocket and make his reads.

Seriously watch a few series and count how many times there are 7+ lions within 3-4 yards of the LOS. This wasn't about the pass rush it was about containing him.

Those are called "blitzers"...

I'm sorry but this isn't an opinion post. Everything I've said is easily checked. In fact, here's some visual proof:

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj73/thereverend316/TebowPressure.png

The Decker should've been a TD play. 7 Lions. 6 blitzers, 1 spy turned delay blitz.

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj73/thereverend316/TebowPressure2.png

Tulloch sack. Which should be a blitz tip off considering he's a LBer. Anyway, this one is only 6 vs 5.

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj73/thereverend316/TebowPressure3.png

Avril's first sack and FF. 6 on this play.

Then there's the notion of "Stopping the run to force him to beat you with the pass"...

Of course that theory has to completely ignore the 195 yards rushing at 6.5 ypc Denver had (132 for 6.6 ypc if you remove Tebows ground production).

Kaylore
11-02-2011, 09:11 AM
Mike nails this. You can nit-pick playcalling, the defense had some issues, but 75% of this game being so ugly was the offense failing to sustain drives, turnovers and just bad quarterbacking.

TheRev tries to push blame on the line, the system and everyone but Tebow. At the end of the day it was Tebow holding the ball too long, failing to read the defense, his inability to take the ball from center basically telling the Lions defense what we are doing every play, and horrible mechanics affecting his accuracy in the rare case he did make a read and attempt to execute.

Franklin got mauled, Beadles is bad, a lack of screens and draws (do they know what a draw play is?) are factors. But behind that line Orton was never sacked as much as Tebow has been. Nothing has changed but the QB and the league already has the book on how to beat him.

1. When he goes under center, it's a run. If he attempts to throw it won't work so just play run.
2. When he's in the shot gun spy, blitz or both.

We wouldn't have won if someone besides Tebow was the QB outside of Manning or Rogers, but Tebow makes everything ten times worse.

TheReverend
11-02-2011, 09:14 AM
Mike nails this. You can nit-pick playcalling, the defense had some issues, but 75% of this game being so ugly was the offense failing to sustain drives, turnovers and just bad quarterbacking.

TheRev tries to push blame on the line, the system and everyone but Tebow. At the end of the day it was Tebow holding the ball too long, failing to read the defense, his inability to take the ball from center basically telling the Lions defense what we are doing every play, and horrible mechanics affecting his accuracy in the rare case he did make a read and attempt to execute.

Franklin got mauled, Beadles is bad, a lack of screens and draws (do they know what a draw play is?) are factors. But behind that line Orton was never sacked as much as Tebow has been. Nothing has changed but the QB and the league already has the book on how to beat him.

1. When he goes under center, it's a run. If he attempts to throw it won't work so just play run.
2. When he's in the shot gun spy, blitz or both.

We wouldn't have won if someone besides Tebow was the QB outside of Manning or Rogers, but Tebow makes everything ten times worse.

I mention at least a half dozen times that none of that excuses his performance, that he played awful and that the bottom line falls on him, but okay man...

Kaylore
11-02-2011, 09:41 AM
I mention at least a half dozen times that none of that excuses his performance, that he played awful and that the bottom line falls on him, but okay man...

I didn't mean it sound like you were being MacGruder-like. I apologize if that's how I sounded. As I said, you raise valid points concerning the line, the play calling and the bad defensive play. But you seem to make a heavier case against the other support elements not doing your job. Certainly they didn't help, but the long and short end of this game was how terrible the quarterbacking was and I think you pulled your punches a bit.

TheReverend
11-02-2011, 09:47 AM
I didn't mean it sound like you were being MacGruder-like. I apologize if that's how I sounded. As I said, you raise valid points concerning the line, the play calling and the bad defensive play. But you seem to make a heavier case against the other support elements not doing your job. Certainly they didn't help, but the long and short end of this game was how terrible the quarterbacking was and I think you pulled your punches a bit.

I may very well sound like that. Haven't re-listened so ill identify points when I have time when I get home in a bit.

As for pulling punches and emphasizing the supporting elements. No ****. What's there to say? He played like ****, held the ball too long in cases, had poor footwork, hesitated, etc. Boom, nothing left to talk about with it just a few sentences later and Mike covered it before the question even got to me. Should we just have case closed and stopped the show or discussed the whole team? And what did I say that you disagree with? Really anything?

Kaylore
11-02-2011, 09:52 AM
I may very well sound like that. Haven't re-listened so ill identify points when I have time when I get home in a bit.

As for pulling punches and emphasizing the supporting elements. No ****. What's there to say? He played like ****, held the ball too long in cases, had poor footwork, hesitated, etc. Boom, nothing left to talk about with it just a few sentences later and Mike covered it before the question even got to me. Should we just have case closed and stopped the show or discussed the whole team? And what did I say that you disagree with? Really anything?

zowie! Oh you mad!

TheReverend
11-02-2011, 09:58 AM
zowie! Oh you mad!

Maybe a little actually lol

I've never understood the "You're wrong, but I have no intention of supporting my argument or providing examples even though you have!"

Kaylore
11-02-2011, 10:09 AM
Maybe a little actually lol

I've never understood the "You're wrong, but I have no intention of supporting my argument or providing examples even though you have!"

I think you misunderstood me. I never even said you were wrong or that I disagreed with you. You guys did a pretty good job with a podcast that doesn't have really anything to be happy about. I think Tebow should have been torn to shreds more than he was. I expected you to be more vocally critical than you were.

TheDave
11-02-2011, 10:40 AM
Those are called "blitzers"...

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj73/thereverend316/TebowPressure.png

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj73/thereverend316/TebowPressure2.png


http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj73/thereverend316/TebowPressure3.png



thanks for the supporting evidence (I think?)... Man coverage with a spy on him, (yes in those 3 shots they rushed 5... not what I would call selling out) Also, it seemed the spy always had the freedom to shoot in when he wanted... Not like he had to worry about the ball going over his head. On top of that they usually had at least one more defender floating in a short zone off the LOS.

IMO that kills the screen game. Now of course there were times they brought the house and if tim could read a defense he might have been able to check to a different play (I've been trying to tell you since August that the kid is not ready). But in the end...more times than not they successfully forced him to try and beat man coverage, without risking much too much.

Now the one thing I do wonder... was anyone open?

I'm wondering if our WR's collective pity party is showing up in the reads/routes? If thats what is going on, again, I feel for the kid.

TheReverend
11-02-2011, 10:41 AM
I think you misunderstood me. I never even said you were wrong or that I disagreed with you. You guys did a pretty good job with a podcast that doesn't have really anything to be happy about. I think Tebow should have been torn to shreds more than he was. I expected you to be more vocally critical than you were.

Gotcha. Fair. Like I said, I'll relisten and check it out.

That being said, you missed the show so take some time now and throw down your thoughts to some of the questions. I'd like to read your answers to a lot of the show topics.

What would you have said about Tebow?

What about the OL? You've mentioned this week that a lot of it was Tebow's fault, so which sacks specifically do you feel were his fault?

What did you like/dislike about playcalling?

Defensive performances of note?

WR play?

Who's primarily to blame?

Would you give 3 1sts for Luck and what would you do to fix the team moving forward?

And I think that generally covers the topics.

jhns
11-02-2011, 10:45 AM
I think you misunderstood me. I never even said you were wrong or that I disagreed with you. You guys did a pretty good job with a podcast that doesn't have really anything to be happy about. I think Tebow should have been torn to shreds more than he was. I expected you to be more vocally critical than you were.

People like you will be extremely disappointed for many years. We will either go with Tebow, or draft a new QB. The new QBs are going to look just as lost as Tebow. Elway did, just like most...

This from the people that actually got mad about people not giving guys like Orton and McDaniels more respect and time...

People are not living in reality. You are actually getting mad because people bring up valid points while not trashing a QB in his fifth start... Pathetic.

TheReverend
11-02-2011, 10:45 AM
thanks for the supporting evidence (I think?)... Man coverage with a spy on him, (yes in those 3 shots they rushed 5... not what I would call selling out) Also, it seemed the spy always had the freedom to shoot in when he wanted... Not like he had to worry about the ball going over his head. On top of that they usually had at least one more defender floating in a short zone off the LOS.

IMO that kills the screen game. Now of course there were times they brought the house and if tim could read a defense he might have been able to check to a different play (I've been trying to tell you since August that the kid is not ready). But in the end...more times than not they successfully forced him to try and beat man coverage, without risking much too much.

Now the one thing I do wonder... was anyone open?

I'm wondering if our WR's collective pity party is showing up in the reads/routes? If thats what is going on, again, I feel for the kid.

Theres a minimum of 6 rushers in those three shots and not 5. In the first one, seven rushers. Your old eyes are failing you :)

And if it were a blitz of 5, with a spy AND a guy floating underneath zone... well, you should add up those match ups because it doesnt work :)

Also screens are more effective vs man than zone, ftr. :)

And I also do wonder about the WRs getting open.

TheDave
11-02-2011, 11:03 AM
Theres a minimum of 6 rushers in those three shots and not 5. In the first one, seven rushers. Your old eyes are failing you :)

And if it were a blitz of 5, with a spy AND a guy floating underneath zone... well, you should add up those match ups because it doesnt work :)

Also screens are more effective vs man than zone, ftr. :)

And I also do wonder about the WRs getting open.

Yep eyes were failing me on that pic...

But you have to admit rev they didn't have to sell out... this was EASY. We will see if the screen game comes alive next week, but I seriously doubt it. Spies and delayed blitz's have worked so far.

IMO, with all the trash teams are throwing at the middle of the field it might be time to bring back the bubble screen... Does he throw that well enough? Or is that an automatic pick six with his wind up and the coverage?

Hell I don't know... If things look this bad next week you guys may have to add a NCAA QB segment.

TJ: "So Pat how about that RGIII kid? Could he and Tebow run the dual QB A-11 offense."

Rev: Nom, Nom, Nom... Halloween Candy ;D

TheReverend
11-02-2011, 11:58 AM
Yep eyes were failing me on that pic...

But you have to admit rev they didn't have to sell out... this was EASY. We will see if the screen game comes alive next week, but I seriously doubt it. Spies and delayed blitz's have worked so far.

We can just assume anything we want to...

Here's what I KNOW: Miami developed a successful blueprint vs Tebow and Detroit executed it even better. We're most likely going to see the SAME thing @ Oakland.

This is all I want: Quick hits over the middle and into the flat when he reads blitz. Two TE sets (12 or 22 personnel packages) when it's a slow developing 7+ step drop. Etc.

I don't think that's too much to ask nor does it absolve him of any responsibility in the performance. But let's try to eliminate those things that are wreaking havoc on his fundamentals so we can give improvement a fighting chance.

IMO, with all the trash teams are throwing at the middle of the field it might be time to bring back the bubble screen... Does he throw that well enough? Or is that an automatic pick six with his wind up and the coverage?

That's a good question.

Hell I don't know... If things look this bad next week you guys may have to add a NCAA QB segment.

TJ: "So Pat how about that RGIII kid? Could he and Tebow run the dual QB A-11 offense."

Rev: Nom, Nom, Nom... Halloween Candy ;D

I don't like Griffin :(

SonOfLe-loLang
11-02-2011, 12:10 PM
He threw plenty of WR screens last year with success.

TheReverend
11-02-2011, 03:09 PM
Came across this while digging up quotes for the Kubiak thread:

"He looked like he was more comfortable in the second half," Texans linebacker Zac Diles said of Tebow. "They had him throwing screens and short passes. (But) the man can play football."

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_16947617

I'll be damned if this isn't exactly what the eff we've been asking for... :/

Bronco Yoda
11-02-2011, 08:25 PM
But behind that line Orton was never sacked as much as Tebow has been. Nothing has changed but the QB and the league already has the book on how to beat him.


Ok, I have to call you on this...

O-line
Orton had Clady-level talent watching his backside... Tebow has Franklin.

Running game
Orton had McGahee moving the chains... Tebow has Moreno.

Passing game
Orton lived off Lloyd talent... Tebow now has a shuffled deck of players that did him no favors last game.

coaching
Had the book on how to use Orton... Still have no clue on how to use Tebow.

Now this is just a few of the obvious stuff without even getting into play calling and protection packages...etc.

but none of this matters right? apples to apples...

ok

Kaylore
11-02-2011, 11:07 PM
Ok, I have to call you on this...

O-line
Orton had Clady-level talent watching his backside... Tebow has Franklin.

Running game
Orton had McGahee moving the chains... Tebow has Moreno.

Passing game
Orton lived off Lloyd talent... Tebow now has a shuffled deck of players that did him no favors last game.

coaching
Had the book on how to use Orton... Still have no clue on how to use Tebow.

Now this is just a few of the obvious stuff without even getting into play calling and protection packages...etc.

but none of this matters right? apples to apples...

ok
Except that Tebow holds the ball three times longer than Orton and doesn't step up into the pocket.

Powderaddict
11-03-2011, 05:17 AM
Except that Tebow holds the ball three times longer than Orton and doesn't step up into the pocket.

And when he does get an open man he overthrows hi 5-10 yards.

I agree he's not getting many favors from the plays called, but at the same time he's making the plays called look terrble by his lack of execution.

It's not that he looks like a young QB with a few things to work on. He needs to work on EVERYTHING.

KevinJames
11-03-2011, 06:27 AM
For you SoCal DJ Williams
http://a2.twimg.com/profile_images/1617746238/image.jpg

btw great job guys!

jhns
11-03-2011, 06:28 AM
Except that Tebow holds the ball three times longer than Orton and doesn't step up into the pocket.

As of Orton ever stepped into the pocket. That was one of the biggest reasons that he sucked...

jhns
11-03-2011, 06:34 AM
And when he does get an open man he overthrows hi 5-10 yards.

I agree he's not getting many favors from the plays called, but at the same time he's making the plays called look terrble by his lack of execution.

It's not that he looks like a young QB with a few things to work on. He needs to work on EVERYTHING.

He also had receivers drop more balls than he threw high. One was high because it was a jump ball to a single covered Thomas, who didn't leave his feet. He threw one ball that went right through a receivers hands, only to hit another reciever in the hands and drop to the ground... Royal had like five balls hit him in the hands or go straight between his hands.

You guys only blame Tebow for this horrible receiver play. It was really stupid to give away the two top receivers...

TheReverend
11-03-2011, 07:22 AM
Except that Tebow holds the ball three times longer than Orton and doesn't step up into the pocket.

...So which of his seven sacks would you attribute to that? ;)

broncosteven
11-04-2011, 12:22 PM
15:00 mark ...

Yea I totally couldn't understand the lack of screens. I won't bash the overall play calling because who knows why they call what they call at this point and I'm sure others will...

But the screens... I always thought you almost would start running them out of necessity at some point in games where your line/protections are getting killed. I mean sure you call them at your own leisure as well but all my life when teams are getting smoked up front on O you always hear the guys in the booth talk about the team needing to call some screens to HELP out their line.

It's like whoever calls the plays for us refuses to adapt to what is happening on the field.
A little Mike Martzish in ways. A little to much I'm CALLING THIS !!!! and I don't care what I've seen all game or what has worked and hasn't.

It's like they don't even understand paper, rock, scissors sometimes...

I like the idea of the 2 man game that Socal mentioned, with the 1 step drops or quick slants to a TE.

Bronco Yoda
11-04-2011, 01:00 PM
Except that Tebow holds the ball three times longer than Orton and doesn't step up into the pocket.

Actually he DID step into the pocket last game. I re-watched the game again yesterday and was surprised myself.

Twice Lynch was even knocking him for going too far into the pocket. Like that overthrown jump pass to Royal down the right side. Watch it again an you'll see that the back released into the flat. Had Tebow NOT stepped into the pocket he could have dumped it off. There were a couple to Decker that he stepped into the pock. The last sack I believe he stepped up into the pocket right into a sack. It was a mixed bag... but he was stepping into the pocket last game.

broncosteven
11-04-2011, 01:07 PM
Agree with you guys that this mess is Bowlen's fault.

Great point by Rev about Bowlen saying he his taking his team back and the best holdovers are still from Shanny's tenure!

broncosteven
11-04-2011, 01:55 PM
GENE is CLUTCH!

YES!

Powderaddict
11-07-2011, 09:43 AM
Hey, does anyone have the call in number handy? I've looked around but don't see it.

Blueflame
11-07-2011, 02:30 PM
Hey, does anyone have the call in number handy? I've looked around but don't see it.

(720) 257-9899

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=100800

Powderaddict
11-07-2011, 03:12 PM
(720) 257-9899

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=100800

TY