PDA

View Full Version : Poll: who is PRIMARILY responsible for Denvers current suckitude?


orinjkrush
10-31-2011, 03:42 PM
Name your poison

Crushaholic
10-31-2011, 03:50 PM
The defense has not done anything to show the offense they can win...

Garcia Bronco
10-31-2011, 03:53 PM
I lies soley with John Fox. He's not preparing this team properly. And I think even with my limited knowledge I could do better.

Garcia Bronco
10-31-2011, 03:59 PM
Let me put it another way...

Playing one of the worst rushing defenses in the league: I am going to run at them with everything. I am going to move the pocket in the passing game to get those fatties running left and right and to get my inexperinced QB out of the rush as much as possible. Then I am going to utilize Tebow in play action naked bootlegs.

SoCalBronco
10-31-2011, 04:03 PM
Obviously, the old man.

Rohirrim
10-31-2011, 04:05 PM
I pick Bowlen, Xanders, McD and Shanahan. The decisions at the top have stunk for ten years. The rest are too new to judge yet. You've got to give the Elway crew at least one season. Shanahan left the defense a stinking mess. McD left everything else a mess plus massively ****ed up the drafting. Xanders is a waste of space. And Bowlen, as the owner, is responsible for all of it.

Garcia Bronco
10-31-2011, 04:12 PM
Elway gets longer than that. About 4 more for me.

Gutless Drunk
10-31-2011, 04:13 PM
29441

go_broncos
10-31-2011, 04:16 PM
The one popps supported..

KO5K
10-31-2011, 04:20 PM
What worries the most is seeing absolutely no improvement in this team.

I realize you have to give EFX more than half a year, but seriously, some improvement would be welcomed.

But it all rests at the top, whether that's Bowlen or Ellis I'm not sure.

HAT
10-31-2011, 04:21 PM
I went with Other...Whoever's decision it was to hire John Fox.

Granted, Fox & the current FO have only been in place for 10 months or so but you do not start a new era with recycled, game has passed him by, coached his former team to 2 wins, kind of guy.

Somebody got snowed by his decade old accomplishment of getting an expansion team to the SB rather quickly. That & they were (semi-understandably) too anxious to hire a guy who was the exact opposite of McD. Young/Old, Brash/Conservative, Offense/Defense. It was pure PR.

Blueflame
10-31-2011, 04:21 PM
Ellis needs to be added to the poll. :P

Bronx33
10-31-2011, 04:23 PM
The whole organization played bad you cant point to one area and say that's why we suck ( its everything).

WolfpackGuy
10-31-2011, 04:27 PM
Why is McClueless buried in the middle of this list when he is clearly to blame?

I will literally backhand that midget for what he did to the Broncos if I ever see him in out public.

razorwire77
10-31-2011, 04:33 PM
It all starts with Bowlen. The erosion of the Broncos from an elite franchise, to a mediocre franchise to what we have now is largely on Bowlen.

He essentially allowed post SB Shanny to go unchecked and the results were scores of terrible drafts and Bob Slovick's defense.

He repeated the same mistake, hired McDaniel's and gave him way way way too much control for a 30-something rookie HC. He should have paired him with a GM like Eric DeCosta right out of the gate and then we probably wouldn't have had **** like drafting Tebow in the first round, the Alphonso Smith debacle and drafting Richard ****ing Quinn with the 64th pick.

Now, as evident by the lack of quality free agents signed, it seems like he's content to put the minimum amount of financial investment into the team too.

rovolution
10-31-2011, 04:41 PM
http://broncotalk.net/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/joshmcdaniels_car-300x219.jpg



End the thread

orangenblue
10-31-2011, 04:47 PM
http://broncotalk.net/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/joshmcdaniels_car-300x219.jpg



End the thread

Who do you think hired that tool?

rovolution
10-31-2011, 04:54 PM
Who do you think hired that tool?

I didn't disagree with the firing of Shanahan. With the inexcusable defensive collapses beginning in the 2005 AFC Title Game and with that embarrassing loss to Buffalo at home, Mike's time had come to an end. Can't fault Pat for feeling like a change was necessary.

When Josh got hired everyone was excited about a young offensive mind coming to work with Jay and Co.

But the Matt Cassel trade blunder was the beginning of the end for Josh. Even before he even coached his first game.

Pat saw a guy with a lot of coaching brilliance, thought he had learned enough about good personell decisions from being around a guy like Belichick, and gave him a shot. Can't fault him for making what even I thought at the time was a good gut decision.

Archer81
10-31-2011, 04:56 PM
Bowlen. Starts at the top. In hindsight .500 with mopeyJay was not the end of the world.


:Broncos:

gunns
10-31-2011, 04:56 PM
Where's Shanahan and where's the all of the above option?

Dagmar
10-31-2011, 05:00 PM
As a REAL Denver Broncos fan who supported McDaniels for about 15 months I blame everyone but Josh.

Am I doing it right jhns?

razorwire77
10-31-2011, 05:03 PM
I didn't disagree with the firing of Shanahan. With the inexcusable defensive collapses beginning in the 2005 AFC Title Game and with that embarrassing loss to Buffalo at home, Mike's time had come to an end. Can't fault Pat for feeling like a change was necessary.

When Josh got hired everyone was excited about a young offensive mind coming to work with Jay and Co.

But the Matt Cassel trade blunder was the beginning of the end for Josh. Even before he even coached his first game.

Pat saw a guy with a lot of coaching brilliance, thought he had learned enough about good personell decisions from being around a guy like Belichick, and gave him a shot. Can't fault him for making what even I thought at the time was a good gut decision.

I don't fault him for hiring McDaniels. I was excited about the hire at the time myself. What I fault him for is hiring a 30 something rookie HC with an ego the size of Texas, and then basically allowing him carte blanche to make whatever personnel decisions he wanted. He allowed for the McDaniel's hubris to be in full effect and run the franchise completely into the ground.

Mr D
10-31-2011, 05:13 PM
for real... you guys really think McDaniels traded away an All Pro team?

Let me give you the depth chart of the 2008 Denver Broncos:

QB: Jay Cutler, Ramsey
RB: Michael Pittman, Selvin Young, Tatum Bell, Andre Hall, PJ Pope, Ryan Torain, Peyton Hillis
WR: Brandon Marshall, Eddie Royal, Brandon Stokley, Darrell Jackson, Glen Martinez (lol), Chad Jackson (lol)
TE: Tony Scheffler, Daniel Graham, Nate Jackson
LT Ryan Clady, Erik Pears
LG Ben Hamilton Kory Lichtensteiger
C Tom Nalen, Casey Wiegmann
RG Chris Kuper, Montrae Holland
RT Ryan Harris, Tyler Polumbus

DEFENsE

LE John Engelberger (lol), Eb Ekuban, Tim Crowder
LT Dewayne Robertson, Alvin McKinley, Nic Clemons
RT Marcus Thomas, Kenny Peterson
RE Elvis Dumervil, Jarvis Moss (lol)

WLB DJ Williams, Jamie Winborn, WW2
MLB Nate Webster (lol), Niko Koutouvides (lol), Spencer Larsen (lol)
SLB Boss Bailey (lol)

LCB Champ Bailey, Dominique Foxworth, Jack Williams (lol)
RCB Dre Bly (lol), Karl Paymeh (lol)

SS: Hamza Abdullah (lol), Josh Barrett
FS: Marlon McCree (lmao), Marquand Manual (lmao)



Look down that list people, what All pro team are you talking about? As you read through that list, you should cringe at some of those names.

Jay Cutler - Cutler wanted out, Bowlen told McDaniels to trade him... so what's a coach to do here?

Brandon Marshall - played with him for a year, and he was due for a new contract, the Broncos ORGANIZATION did not want to pay him what he wanted, so he was going to leave anyways.

What else? Hillis?... yeah that guy is real beast in right now...lmao

Ya'll are under some delusional BS that we had an All Pro team...smfh.

OBF1
10-31-2011, 05:16 PM
alot of choices were made.... actully a good poll for a change.

gyldenlove
10-31-2011, 05:34 PM
Mcdaniels, Bowlen, Ellis in that order.

L.A. BRONCOS FAN
10-31-2011, 05:37 PM
Bowlen, and it ain't even close.

ohiobronco2
10-31-2011, 05:45 PM
Bowlen. **** starts at the top and rolls down hill.

TailgateNut
10-31-2011, 05:49 PM
alot of choices were made.... actully a good poll for a change.


Too bad you didn't pick one of the suck(ers).

ScottXray
10-31-2011, 07:10 PM
all of the above...
suckage is universal on the Broncos right now!

Equal opportunity sucking!

Broncochica
10-31-2011, 07:15 PM
It lies soley with John Fox. He's not preparing this team properly. And I think even with my limited knowledge I could do better.

LOL Agree!

Victor
10-31-2011, 07:20 PM
Fox is full of fail. A cloud of stink follows him around wherever he goes.

t-diddy
10-31-2011, 07:22 PM
Bowlen, and it ain't even close.

This. And also, ^this.

ant1999e
10-31-2011, 07:37 PM
Bowlen, and it ain't even close.

As much as it pains me to agree with you, I do.

Atwater His Ass
10-31-2011, 07:41 PM
Bowlen.

KO5K
10-31-2011, 07:44 PM
Bowlen hired Elway.

Who hired the only coach who had a worse record than Josh McDaniels.

Just think about that for a second, Josh McDaniels record > John Fox's record and we hired him.

That was just asking for trouble.

NFLBRONCO
10-31-2011, 08:21 PM
Bowlen by far

Remember it was Fox or Dennison as HC this year I'll take Fox everytime.

maven
10-31-2011, 08:23 PM
Josh. traded away players and didn't replace them.

ant1999e
10-31-2011, 08:25 PM
Josh. traded away players and didn't replace them.

Bowlen hired Josh and gave him all the power.

NFLBRONCO
10-31-2011, 08:43 PM
Bowlen hired Josh and gave him all the power.

QFT :thumbsup:

maven
10-31-2011, 08:44 PM
Bowlen hired Josh and gave him all the power.

Josh made the trades and moves to revamp the team, thus producing the suck we see today.

vonqkilla
10-31-2011, 08:52 PM
If you add up all the % s its like 238% lol

Taco John
10-31-2011, 08:55 PM
1. Pat Bowlen
2. Pat Bowlen
3. Pat Bowlen

broncocalijohn
10-31-2011, 09:22 PM
The last two head coaches and draft picks with Bowlen as owner. It has to start at the top even if he tries to make good. McD ruined so much of what was average to absolute ****.

broncocalijohn
10-31-2011, 09:23 PM
If you add up all the % s its like 238% lol

You understand it is multi answers allowed, correct?

Orange4Life
10-31-2011, 09:42 PM
I have to go with Bowlen. He gave McD, a coach with no experience, all that power. I really think McD was ok on game day. It was the personal decisions that doomed him. With a strong GM many of our problems with McD are avoided. Bowlen is the one who allowed it all to happen.

smoke4815162342
10-31-2011, 09:49 PM
Firing Ted Sundquist is the reason

maher_tyler
10-31-2011, 09:52 PM
Blame McD all you want. Bowlen hired him!

broncocalijohn
10-31-2011, 10:00 PM
I have to go with Bowlen. He gave McD, a coach with no experience, all that power. I really think McD was ok on game day. It was the personal decisions that doomed him. With a strong GM many of our problems with McD are avoided. Bowlen is the one who allowed it all to happen.

Some of you fans need to realize that his gameplans started to suck too. After those 6 games that we won and especially the 2010 season, he **** a brick on gameday as much as he sucked on draft day.

Agamemnon
10-31-2011, 10:06 PM
Where's the Joe Ellis option? Ever since Bowlen handed the keys to that joker we have taken a complete nosedive. Of course you can blame Bowlen too (if for no other reason than putting Ellis in charge), no doubt about it, but I tend to believe Ellis is the one making the big decisions anymore. Seriously, the dude became the CEO in 2008. Think about it...

ant1999e
10-31-2011, 10:06 PM
Some of you fans need to realize that his gameplans started to suck too. After those 6 games that we won and especially the 2010 season, he **** a brick on gameday as much as he sucked on draft day.

After those wins, he ran out of gimmick plays.

Popps
10-31-2011, 11:40 PM
Where's Shanahan and where's the all of the above option?

Ding.

eddie mac
10-31-2011, 11:47 PM
Bowlen = The Captain of the Titanic
McDaniels = The moron that thought he could sail through an iceberg
Shanahan = The idiot that didn't stock the ship with enough lifeboats

broncocalijohn
11-01-2011, 12:18 AM
Bowlen = The Captain of the Titanic
McDaniels = The moron that thought he could sail through an iceberg
Shanahan = The idiot that didn't stock the ship with enough lifeboats

Those were the 3 I voted for in the poll. Like or dislike Bowlen, he is the ultimate one who makes the big decisions. If you are going to fire Shanahan for average play, then you better bring in someone that is going to get you to the next step and beyond. We can put this back to Shanahan but soon enough, we need to realize that the ship was probably not going to sink with Mike like it did with McD. Of course floating with only sails and not much wind wasn't going to put us in the lead either.

Atwater His Ass
11-01-2011, 03:44 AM
How anyone can place even a little bit of blame on Shanahan is amazing. All the guy did was keep us competitive every single ****ing year he was here.

orangenblue
11-01-2011, 08:23 AM
I didn't disagree with the firing of Shanahan. With the inexcusable defensive collapses beginning in the 2005 AFC Title Game and with that embarrassing loss to Buffalo at home, Mike's time had come to an end. Can't fault Pat for feeling like a change was necessary.

When Josh got hired everyone was excited about a young offensive mind coming to work with Jay and Co.

But the Matt Cassel trade blunder was the beginning of the end for Josh. Even before he even coached his first game.

Pat saw a guy with a lot of coaching brilliance, thought he had learned enough about good personell decisions from being around a guy like Belichick, and gave him a shot. Can't fault him for making what even I thought at the time was a good gut decision.

The problem with that decision was that it was made thinking that brilliance comes by association with brilliance. It doesn't. McDaniels was 32 years young with no head coaching experience at any level. And all of a sudden you give this guy total control? Got to be the most boneheaded decision of all time. Was Bowlen drunk and on roofies when he delegated all this power?

I just don't understand why Bowlen would all of a sudden make such a move of desperation. Makes no sense to me at all.

orangenblue
11-01-2011, 08:32 AM
How anyone can place even a little bit of blame on Shanahan is amazing. All the guy did was keep us competitive every single ****ing year he was here.

Absolutely! It's a tough, tough, league. Look at Andy Reid.

Gort
11-01-2011, 08:38 AM
How anyone can place even a little bit of blame on Shanahan is amazing. All the guy did was keep us competitive every single ****ing year he was here.

but the chickens eventually had to come home to roost.

how many draft picks were lost due to free agent signings? how many draft picks were wasted? how many free agents didn't pan out.

he left the cupboard bare. forget about Cutler. forget about Marshall. forget about Dumervil and Clady. what else did we have when he left? we had a team full of Nate Websters. didn't somebody on here calculate that 70+% of the guys on Shanny's last roster here never played another NFL down after that season?

Gort
11-01-2011, 08:40 AM
Those were the 3 I voted for in the poll. Like or dislike Bowlen, he is the ultimate one who makes the big decisions. If you are going to fire Shanahan for average play, then you better bring in someone that is going to get you to the next step and beyond. We can put this back to Shanahan but soon enough, we need to realize that the ship was probably not going to sink with Mike like it did with McD. Of course floating with only sails and not much wind wasn't going to put us in the lead either.

it's better to have a hands-off owner like Bowlen than a hands-on owner like Jerry Jones or Snyder.

Bowlen gets a lot of grief he doesn't deserve. if he makes a bad hire, that's on him. but how that bad hire performs in his job is on them. the suckitude of McDaniels tenure is 10% Bowlen for hiring him, and 90% McDaniels for being a paranoid little Napoleon in over his head.

orangenblue
11-01-2011, 08:45 AM
it's better to have a hands-off owner like Bowlen than a hands-on owner like Jerry Jones or Snyder.

Bowlen gets a lot of grief he doesn't deserve. if he makes a bad hire, that's on him. but how that bad hire performs in his job is on them. the suckitude of McDaniels tenure is 10% Bowlen for hiring him, and 90% McDaniels for being a paranoid little Napoleon in over his head.

What you say makes no sense.

Rohirrim
11-01-2011, 08:45 AM
Absolutely! It's a tough, tough, league. Look at Andy Reid.

Yeah, but Shanahan the coach and Shanahan the GM were two different animals. The coach part was good, the GM part, not so good. Unfortunately, we couldn't get rid of just one part and keep the other.

Gort
11-01-2011, 08:51 AM
What you say makes no sense.

go be a fan of a team with a hands on owner and you'll understand. when the owner thinks he knows more than his professional people, he'll make mistakes that people will talk about for years. i've been through it with the Orioles (Angelos) and Baltimore Colts (Irsay Sr.).

Bowlen is doing what the corporate world does. hire good people and let them do their jobs. sometimes you make a mistake (McDaniels), but usually, if you hire good people and stay out of their way, they'll do their jobs well.

broncocalijohn
11-01-2011, 10:33 AM
it's better to have a hands-off owner like Bowlen than a hands-on owner like Jerry Jones or Snyder.

Bowlen gets a lot of grief he doesn't deserve. if he makes a bad hire, that's on him. but how that bad hire performs in his job is on them. the suckitude of McDaniels tenure is 10% Bowlen for hiring him, and 90% McDaniels for being a paranoid little Napoleon in over his head.

While I agree with much of what you stated, the fact remains that he let the head coach have too much reign and believed in the BS they were giving out. Of course the individual needs to perform to the promises but it starts at the top. You cannot exclude Bowlen in this poll topic. Surprised he is barely over 50% of the vote IMO.

24champ
11-01-2011, 10:49 AM
Voted Bowlen/Ellis.

It's clear that he is only one responsible for this mess. You can blame McD all you want, but those that do are missing a lot of things. It's been clear to me from the moment that they canned Shanahan that they don't know what they are doing. The only thing they care about is their bottom line.

Who fired Shanahan and said he was taking back control of his franchise? Bowlen
Who got rid of Cutler? Bowlen
Who fired the Goodmans? Bowlen
Who allowed McD to have final say on all football matters? Bowlen
Who hired a 2-14 coach to replace McD? Bowlen
Who hired a person with zero experience to the VP of Football operations post? Bowlen.

And there are many more things I could rattle off about Bowlen/Ellis. The most troubling thing to me in watching the Broncos get destroyed in games, is that I don't have this feeling of this franchise heading in a direction. It's a rudderless ship to me, and this is a direct result of Bowlen keeping leftovers from prior regimes in the FO and also on the coaching staff. It's cost effective for Bowlen and his pocket, but its actually hurting the product on the field. For example, we have converted a WR coach in Gase to coaching up the Quarterbacks. You guys don't think this plays a part in why Orton and Tebow look worse than last year? Let me name another one, Wayne Nunnely, DL coach. Been here for 3 years, anyone see any progress on the line? No. If McD had such crap drafts, why do we still employ scouts that wrote up the same reports for McD? Elway is getting the same reports that McD would have gotten.

The only thing that will get this franchise back on track is if Bowlen either A.) Sells the franchise to someone else that is willing to put the resources needed to bring this franchise back to life. Or B.) Completely gut everything, from Elway down to the waterboy. You cannot make a case for anyone right now on why they should keep their job. Nobody. We need some direction and to do that you need to start by hiring a leader that knows what it takes to be successful and start surrounding him with workers that share his philosophies.

El Guapo
11-01-2011, 11:45 AM
Bowlen should of never fired Shanny.

Agamemnon
11-01-2011, 11:47 AM
Voted Bowlen/Ellis.

It's clear that he is only one responsible for this mess. You can blame McD all you want, but those that do are missing a lot of things. It's been clear to me from the moment that they canned Shanahan that they don't know what they are doing. The only thing they care about is their bottom line.

Who fired Shanahan and said he was taking back control of his franchise? Bowlen
Who got rid of Cutler? Bowlen
Who fired the Goodmans? Bowlen
Who allowed McD to have final say on all football matters? Bowlen
Who hired a 2-14 coach to replace McD? Bowlen
Who hired a person with zero experience to the VP of Football operations post? Bowlen.

And there are many more things I could rattle off about Bowlen/Ellis. The most troubling thing to me in watching the Broncos get destroyed in games, is that I don't have this feeling of this franchise heading in a direction. It's a rudderless ship to me, and this is a direct result of Bowlen keeping leftovers from prior regimes in the FO and also on the coaching staff. It's cost effective for Bowlen and his pocket, but its actually hurting the product on the field. For example, we have converted a WR coach in Gase to coaching up the Quarterbacks. You guys don't think this plays a part in why Orton and Tebow look worse than last year? Let me name another one, Wayne Nunnely, DL coach. Been here for 3 years, anyone see any progress on the line? No. If McD had such crap drafts, why do we still employ scouts that wrote up the same reports for McD? Elway is getting the same reports that McD would have gotten.

The only thing that will get this franchise back on track is if Bowlen either A.) Sells the franchise to someone else that is willing to put the resources needed to bring this franchise back to life. Or B.) Completely gut everything, from Elway down to the waterboy. You cannot make a case for anyone right now on why they should keep their job. Nobody. We need some direction and to do that you need to start by hiring a leader that knows what it takes to be successful and start surrounding him with workers that share his philosophies.

Yep. Pretty much.

TheReverend
11-01-2011, 12:04 PM
Where's Shanahan and where's the all of the above option?

...are you ****ing kidding me?

HorseHead
11-01-2011, 12:14 PM
It (the entire scene) really is the "perfect storm" of decision making...talk about a giant cluster ----.

Oh well, love my team, and respect the angry mo fo's on this board...beer please..

broncocalijohn
11-01-2011, 12:55 PM
Good to see Champ24 doesnt believe in personal responsibilities even though he feels that in his politics. I guess Champ24 it is your hatred of Bowlen that you couldnt put one vote on McD or any other choice. Good grief!

riiiiick
11-01-2011, 12:57 PM
How is it everyone, except our coaches, know that 8 men in the box is the gameplan against Tebow? The 1st drive proved he can carve up a standard package D, so 8 up front until he beats it. Aren't there plays to attack that D? Boot, screens, ???? Don't they practice that all week? Was 8 up front a suprise to them ? How many times did we run up the gut on 1st down against that D? Somebody help me out here, what plays do you run against that D, which I am sure
Tebow will see again Sunday. Even Lynch was
offerring suggestions to this staff!!!!

BroncoBen
11-01-2011, 01:00 PM
Really..? McDanials had inherited a pretty good offence from Shannahan.. all that needed to be fixed was the Defense. McDanials blew up this team for no good reason.

24champ
11-01-2011, 01:27 PM
Good to see Champ24 doesnt believe in personal responsibilities even though he feels that in his politics. I guess Champ24 it is your hatred of Bowlen that you couldnt put one vote on McD or any other choice. Good grief!

My disdain for Bowlen, is because of his ineptitude and the fact he is robbing the fans. Fact is, ever since Shanahan left, this franchise has nosedived significantly. It starts at the top for me, Bowlen says things (to appease fans) but if you focus on his actions, its an entirely different story.

Wake up.

i4jelway7
11-01-2011, 01:53 PM
It all starts with Bowlen. The erosion of the Broncos from an elite franchise, to a mediocre franchise to what we have now is largely on Bowlen.

He essentially allowed post SB Shanny to go unchecked and the results were scores of terrible drafts and Bob Slovick's defense.

He repeated the same mistake, hired McDaniel's and gave him way way way too much control for a 30-something rookie HC. He should have paired him with a GM like Eric DeCosta right out of the gate and then we probably wouldn't have had **** like drafting Tebow in the first round, the Alphonso Smith debacle and drafting Richard ****ing Quinn with the 64th pick.

Now, as evident by the lack of quality free agents signed, it seems like he's content to put the minimum amount of financial investment into the team too.

:thanku:

starts upstairs hiring Mcdummy was a mistake, allowing Mcdummy to trade away a franchise QB was a mistake, etc .. the list can go on but you get the picture

broncocalijohn
11-01-2011, 03:46 PM
My disdain for Bowlen, is because of his ineptitude and the fact he is robbing the fans. Fact is, ever since Shanahan left, this franchise has nosedived significantly. It starts at the top for me, Bowlen says things (to appease fans) but if you focus on his actions, its an entirely different story.

Wake up.

If you saw my votes and posts, I included Bowlen as it starts from the top. You obviously dont think it trickles down to the ****tyness of McDaniels. If I remember, you were on that bandwagon till the bitter end.

TDmvp
11-01-2011, 03:48 PM
I blame me and T.j. ...

I got into a pissing contest with my GF the night of Shanny's last game and T.J. moved the boob mojo thread.

TheDave
11-01-2011, 03:49 PM
Hurricane Josh... Luckily we will never see anything that pathetic ever again.

Statistically speaking that level of incompetence can only be a once in a lifetime event... I hope

Br0nc0Buster
11-01-2011, 03:55 PM
cupboard was bare when Shanny left

McD came in and took a dump all over everything

now we are like an expansion team

also our offense is the in the hands of a couple clowns

TDmvp
11-01-2011, 04:01 PM
cupboard was bare when Shanny left

McD came in and took a dump all over everything

now we are like an expansion team

also our offense is the in the hands of a couple clowns

/ponder ...

http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/2009/23183118pgkq53ch1.gif


Didn't we have like the 2nd rated O in the game and most cap room / draft picks we'd had in years going into the off season Shanny got fired ?

Not sure that's a empty cupboard.

Br0nc0Buster
11-01-2011, 04:03 PM
/ponder ...

http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/2009/23183118pgkq53ch1.gif


Didn't we have like the 2nd rated O in the game and most cap room / draft picks we'd had in years going into the off season Shanny got fired ?

Not sure that's a empty cupboard.

we also had Marlon McCree, Nate Webster, and John Engleberger starting for us

We had talent on offense, Im not really disputing that

but our defense was not NFL quality, it was completely bare save Champ, DJ, Doom

then Josh came and blew up the offense

basically my thought is we Shanny made us look better than we actually were, I think his coaching hid a lot of the flaws that this team had

we were a below average team that shanny made average

then when Josh came and siphoned more talent, we became a ****ty team without the coaching to cover it up

TDmvp
11-01-2011, 04:04 PM
we also had Marlon McCree, Nate Webster, and John Engleberger starting for us

We had talent on offense, Im not really disputing that

but our defense was not NFL quality, it was completely bare save Champ, DJ, Doom

then Josh came and blew up the offense

basically my thought is we Shanny made us look better than we actually were, I think his coaching hid a lot of the flaws that this team had



I can agree with a lot of that Buster... It was just the way you said bare cupboard that threw me.

Popps
11-01-2011, 04:09 PM
I'm not sure why this would be confusing to anyone.

Shanahan left the cupboard bare outside of a crap-can QB, a head-case, underachieving WR and a FB that even he refused to make a full-time RB until
he had to because of injury. The other 50 or so guys are mostly out of the league by the next season.

Then McDaniels came, tried to clean house... did so, but didn't add enough impact players to improve the team... and then signed his own pink slip with a myriad of bad decisions. Maybe he should have had an experienced GM?
(That one is on Bowlen.)

Then Fox inherits the mess. The fans are ready to run him out of town by week 5 because he wasn't starting a QB who wasn't capable of playing professional football. He's had one draft and one off-season with some good results and some issues. But, overall... very little of what's going on at this point can be blamed on him.

Bowlen? Who knows, but I'll say this... he's going to have to stick with a staff here at some point. We're firing coaches and coordinators at an alarming rate over the past 5-7 years. You're not going to build a stable franchise like that.

We had awful drafts and free agency periods for about 10 years before finally hitting on a few decent players. The only reason we weren't in "this condition" earlier is that Shanahan could make sugar cookies out of ****.
He also a lot of help from guys like Gibbs and Kubiak. Those guys are all gone, and most coaches won't be able to make marginal to poor talent look competitive. A lot of what Shanahan did post-SB era was with smoke and mirrors... and most coaches don't have his savvy.

We need stability. We need good scouts, good leadership, good drafts, smart FA periods and a lot of patience. The front office is going to have to sprout some nads and stop caving to the fans. Turn the TV's off, plug your ears and just make smart football decisions until this team is competitive again.

24champ
11-01-2011, 04:13 PM
If you saw my votes and posts, I included Bowlen as it starts from the top. You obviously dont think it trickles down to the ****tyness of McDaniels. If I remember, you were on that bandwagon till the bitter end.

Again as I have outlined in my post awhile back. McD really had no chance of success with the Broncos. The second Bowlen canned the Goodmans, which by the way McD has stated in the Denver Post that he was looking forward to working with them. Same thing with Jay Cutler, it's amazing how misinformed people are about that particular situation. It was Bowlen that traded Cutler, because that feud was going on well before McD showed up.

Bowlen is the one that created this current environment, he's the one that made the primary decisions that have led us to this point of "sucktitude" as the OP put it.

There's really nobody to blame but the Owner.

Popps
11-01-2011, 04:16 PM
/ponder ...

Not sure that's a empty cupboard.

Awful. We were awful. From a talent perspective, we were absolutely awful.
Look at the last few games of the season. We overachieved and ended up near .500 because of Shanahan's game-day coaching ability. But, when it counted... against a playoff team, you saw just how horrible the talent on that team was.

Again... a headcase QB who has shown no elite tendencies to date. An absolute train-wreck of a WR who wanted to be the highest paid player in the league. A great left tackle and a RB he begrudgingly converted from FB because of injury. (Who apparently can't stay healthy or maybe just doesn't feel like playing.)

On defense, you had Champ... Doom and a bunch of slobs. We're more talented on defense at this point, without question.

We had zero depth on either side of the ball.

There's a reason he lost his job, man. I absolutely loved Shanahan. I defended him from bashers around here for years. But, it was time to make a change. I'm not sure if the game passed him by, or if he's just in a funk or what. But, it's not going well for him at his new gig, either.

The team was horrible, man. He lost his job because of it. He was the best coach we've ever had, but his time had come. There's no reason to re-write history. Even the great ones eventually fade.

TheReverend
11-01-2011, 04:16 PM
I'm not sure why this would be confusing to anyone.

Shanahan left the cupboard bare outside of a crap-can QB, a head-case, underachieving WR and a FB that even he refused to make a full-time RB until
he had to because of injury. The other 50 or so guys are mostly out of the league by the next season.

You do realize that three years later, the only players of note on the entire football team are Shanahan holdovers (barring Von Miller 80% of the time)?

24champ
11-01-2011, 04:21 PM
Bowlen? Who knows, but I'll say this... he's going to have to stick with a staff here at some point. We're firing coaches and coordinators at an alarming rate over the past 5-7 years. You're not going to build a stable franchise like that.


I think everyone wants stability, we had stability under Shanny for the most part.

But I have to disagree with your insinuation that we should stick with Fox and this coaching staff. I'm not sold on Fox being the guy to have around for a few years. I think Fox has the worst coaching record than anyone else in the NFL for the past two years. I wouldn't stick with a 4-19 coach, and a staff compiled of leftovers from previous regimes because Bowlen is too cheap to let Fox hire his own staff.

Popps
11-01-2011, 04:26 PM
I can agree with a lot of that Buster... It was just the way you said bare cupboard that threw me.

Jay Cutler* 25 2 16 384 for 616, 4,526 yards, 25 td, 18 int, & 57 rushes for 200 yards and 2 td Denver Broncos / 1st / 11th pick / 2006
RB Peyton Hillis 22 Rook 6 68 rushes for 343 yards, 5 td, & 14 catches for 179 yards and 1 td Denver Broncos / 7th / 227th pick / 2008
RB Selvin Young 25 1 5 61 rushes for 303 yards, 1 td, & 3 catches for 16 yards and 0 td
WR Brandon Marshall* 24 2 15 104 catches for 1,265 yards, 6 td, & 2 rushes for -4 yards and 0 td Denver Broncos / 4th / 119th pick / 2006
WR Eddie Royal 22 Rook 15 91 catches for 980 yards, 5 td, & 11 rushes for 109 yards and 0 td Denver Broncos / 2nd / 42nd pick / 2008
TE Daniel Graham 30 6 16 32 catches for 389 yards, 4 td New England Patriots / 1st / 21st pick / 2002
TE Tony Scheffler 25 2 7 40 catches for 645 yards, 3 td, & 1 rush for -1 yards and 0 td Denver Broncos / 2nd / 61st pick / 2006
LT Ryan Clady 22 Rook 16 Denver Broncos / 1st / 12th pick / 2008
LG Ben Hamilton 31 6 16 Denver Broncos / 4th / 113th pick / 2001
C Casey Wiegmann* 35 11 16
RG Chris Kuper 26 2 16 1 fumble recovered Denver Broncos / 5th / 161st pick / 2006
RT Ryan Harris 23 1 16 Denver Broncos / 3rd / 70th pick / 2007
Defensive Starters
LDE Ebenezer Ekuban 32 9 10 5.0 sacks, 0 interceptions, 1 fumble recovered Dallas Cowboys / 1st / 20th pick / 1999
LDE John Engelberger 32 8 6 1.0 sacks, 0 interceptions, 0 fumbles recovered San Francisco 49ers / 2nd / 35th pick / 2000
LDT Dewayne Robertson 27 5 15 1.5 sacks, 0 interceptions, 0 fumbles recovered New York Jets / 1st / 4th pick / 2003
RDT Marcus Thomas 23 1 16 0.0 sacks, 1 interception, 0 fumbles recovered Denver Broncos / 4th / 121st pick / 2007
RDE Elvis Dumervil 24 2 15 5.0 sacks, 0 interceptions, 1 fumble recovered Denver Broncos / 4th / 126th pick / 2006
LLB Jamie Winborn 29 7 11 0.5 sacks, 0 interceptions, 0 fumbles recovered San Francisco 49ers / 2nd / 47th pick / 2001
LLB Boss Bailey 29 5 6 0.0 sacks, 0 interceptions, 1 fumble recovered Detroit Lions / 2nd / 34th pick / 2003
MLB Nate Webster 31 8 13 2.0 sacks, 0 interceptions, 1 fumble recovered Tampa Bay Buccaneers / 3rd / 90th pick / 2000
RLB D.J. Williams 26 4 11 2.5 sacks, 0 interceptions, 1 fumble recovered Denver Broncos / 1st / 17th pick / 2004
RLB Wesley Woodyard 22 Rook 6
LCB Champ Bailey 30 9 9 1.0 sacks, 1 interception, 0 fumbles recovered Washington Redskins / 1st / 7th pick / 1999
LCB Josh Bell 23 Rook 5
RCB Dre' Bly 31 9 16 0.0 sacks, 2 interceptions, 0 fumbles recovered St. Louis Rams / 2nd / 41st pick / 1999
SS Marquand Manuel 29 6 14 Cincinnati Bengals / 6th / 181st pick / 2002
FS Marlon McCree 31 7 7 Jacksonville Jaguars / 7th / 233rd pick / 2001
Special Teams Starters
K Matt Prater 24 1 0 25 of 34 field goals & 39 of 40 extra points
P Brett Kern 22 Rook 0 46 punts for a 46.7 average, 0 blocked
PR Eddie Royal 22 Rook 15 14 punt returns for a 10.0 average and 0 td Denver Broncos / 2nd / 42nd pick / 2008
KR Eddie Royal 22 Rook 15 23 kick returns for a 26.1 average and 0 td Denver Broncos / 2nd / 42nd pick / 2008

There you go, man. The elite players are highlighted. (We'll give Elvis the benefit of the doubt... even though he's been injured.)

Sorry, but no one outside of this delusional message board considers Cutler or Marshall elite. Most consider them somewhere between decent, streaky and crap. Hillis had his 5 minutes of fame and seems to be falling out of favor with yet another coaching staff. (Even though we were assured here by forum experts that even ASKING if he had personality issues was insane.)

Take a look at the rest of that roster, my friend. Boss Bailey? Oh yea... he came in with Niko as the savior to our defensive woes that off-season. Selvin Young? Elgleberger? Nate Webster? Do I need to go on?

Is the team any more talented now? Hard to say. We've got a similar (low) number of elite players, but also have some young depth that has a chance to develop... which we had none of back in 07. I mean, the guys that Shanny had around that were worth keeping are still here, mostly.

But, whether or not you think we have more talent now or not... look at that roster and you won't be able to lie to yourself. It was a disaster. Mediocre records were obtained because of a brilliant game-day coach and an offensive system that could move the ball when situations were perfect for them.

TheReverend
11-01-2011, 04:28 PM
we also had Marlon McCree, Nate Webster, and John Engleberger starting for us

And with several years to correct that we end up with:

40 year old version of Brian Dawkins
Joe Mays
and a mid 1st rounder on Robert Ayers (that we gave up one of our best players to get)

http://menversus.com/images/bertstare.jpg

BroncoMatt
11-01-2011, 04:43 PM
If only Bubby had come ready to play instead of just taking the keys to the Ferrari for granted...then it would have never been Brian's fault.

Br0nc0Buster
11-01-2011, 04:45 PM
And with several years to correct that we end up with:

40 year old version of Brian Dawkins
Joe Mays
and a mid 1st rounder on Robert Ayers (that we gave up one of our best players to get)

http://menversus.com/images/bertstare.jpg

Perhaps you should re read my post, I never said josh made the team better, in fact I actually said he made it worse

WolfpackGuy
11-01-2011, 04:52 PM
You do realize that three years later, the only players of note on the entire football team are Shanahan holdovers (barring Von Miller 80% of the time)?

Quit talking all that sense.

Sad, but true.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
11-01-2011, 04:55 PM
Don't care. Just want it fixed.

TDmvp
11-01-2011, 05:40 PM
Blah Blah Blah , words


I was more going for the fact we at least was a 500 team then and a empty cupboard doesn't win 8 games in this league.

7-9 , 8-8 , 8-8 was a way better teams then the last two years of 4-12 and 2-5.


But if you think they are the same that's your opinion.

DBroncos4life
11-01-2011, 05:43 PM
Thom McDaniels should be on that list.

LaneLosh2
11-01-2011, 06:07 PM
It is mostly on the owners. they traded away their best recievers back to back years.

Popps
11-01-2011, 10:03 PM
I was more going for the fact we at least was a 500 team then and a empty cupboard doesn't win 8 games in this league.

7-9 , 8-8 , 8-8 was a way better teams then the last two years of 4-12 and 2-5.


But if you think they are the same that's your opinion.

McDaniels had an 8-8 record the next season.

Record isn't always an exact indication of talent level, particularly as in... where is your talent headed? (Do you have depth, etc? )

Shanny coached his way to some much better records than the talent he had. He was brilliant that way. But the bottom line is, he left the team in very bad shape. He wasn't fired without reason.

TheReverend
11-01-2011, 10:06 PM
McDaniels had an 8-8 record the next season.

Record isn't always an exact indication of talent level, particularly as in... where is your talent headed? (Do you have depth, etc? )

Shanny coached his way to some much better records than the talent he had. He was brilliant that way. But the bottom line is, he left the team in very bad shape. He wasn't fired without reason.

...Is that why we were able to sell off some of those players for some pretty unprecedented value hauls...? Because we were in such "bad shape" talent-wise?

DBroncos4life
11-01-2011, 10:47 PM
...Is that why we were able to sell off some of those players for some pretty unprecedented value hauls...? Because we were in such "bad shape" talent-wise?

Be easy on him Rev. He has to defend McD on two boards now. :)

Popps
11-01-2011, 10:53 PM
It is mostly on the owners. they traded away their best recievers back to back years.

But to be fair, they weren't trading away Rod Smith in his prime. Both guys wanted massive paydays and would have been bad investments at that price.
We got a nice bounty for Marshall and Miami got the shaft.
Lloyd? Well, we rented him cheap and got a Pro Bowl performance out of him.

We need to home-grow some quality receivers who can play for the team, not beat women... etc.

Agamemnon
11-02-2011, 03:19 AM
Good to see Champ24 doesnt believe in personal responsibilities even though he feels that in his politics. I guess Champ24 it is your hatred of Bowlen that you couldnt put one vote on McD or any other choice. Good grief!

Umm, I believe the question was who is "primarily" responsible...

ol#7
11-02-2011, 03:24 AM
Woody Paige had a good comment in answer to this, that he thought Shanny had done what he set out to do post 2005 which was to fix the Offense, and had stocked the team with draft picks and FA money to fix the D before he got fired. Everyone forgets that Denver was talked about as the PREMIERE coaching vacancy because of what was in place for a coach to walk into and have success. McD destroyed all that to the point that I am still not convinced he wasnt a deliberate plant to wreck the Broncos.

Atwater His Ass
11-02-2011, 04:06 AM
Umm, I believe the question was who is "primarily" responsible...

Which makes this poll worthless when you can pick multiple options...

DB-Freak
11-02-2011, 04:19 AM
Shanny for being a great coach, but a subpar talent evaluator. Trapped us in a cycle of mediocority for a while.

Atwater His Ass
11-02-2011, 04:38 AM
That's a really weird take, since most of the best players on this team were brought in / drafted by Shanahan....

I remember how it really sucked winning super bowls and challenging for the playoffs every year under Shanahan. Didn't that suck?

It's ****ing hilarious that, what, going on 4 years since his departure anyone could blame this mess on him.

broncocalijohn
11-02-2011, 10:02 AM
Umm, I believe the question was who is "primarily" responsible...

Umm, he doesnt see McDaniels as the primary. It is multiple choice Agamemnon so you can have more than one primary. Hell, you can check off everyone on the OP list if it wasn't asking primary , even blaming Fox for this would be higher in %. You should easily be able to pick 2 and many can pick 3 to blame. Not including Josh McDaniels who took an average team to absolute **** is assinine. Champ24 defended him then and is still defending him now as he wants to NOT give McD the primary reason. I don't know what else to call it but he couldnt draft, couldnt keep coaches and couldnt coach very well on the field after those 6 wins. Looks like a loser to me.

broncocalijohn
11-02-2011, 10:08 AM
That's a really weird take, since most of the best players on this team were brought in / drafted by Shanahan....

I remember how it really sucked winning super bowls and challenging for the playoffs every year under Shanahan. Didn't that suck?

It's ****ing hilarious that, what, going on 4 years since his departure anyone could blame this mess on him.

You have 53 on the roster, 24 starting (25 with long snapper) and how many stars did Shanny leave us? Just saying our best players doesnt mean **** compared to the NFL. Cutler, Marshall, Clady and Champ Bailey seem to be the stars on a NFL level.
All you are doing is comparing Shanny to McDaniels which you would be correct. We went from average to ****ty. That still doesnt excuse Shanahan of being involved with how bad this team is now. If he had more quality players on his rosters, many would still be here 3 years later. If we still suck in 2 years then you can start blaming it on McD and whoever is running the team now. By then, you can't blame Shanahan as a primary reason as 5 years is plenty of time to rebuild or at least not suck.

NFLBRONCO
11-02-2011, 10:10 AM
You have 53 on the roster, 24 starting (25 with long snapper) and how many stars did Shanny leave us? Just saying our best players doesnt mean **** compared to the NFL. Cutler, Marshall, Clady and Champ Bailey seem to be the stars on a NFL level.
All you are doing is comparing Shanny to McDaniels which you would be correct. We went from average to ****ty. That still doesnt excuse Shanahan of being involved with how bad this team is now. If he had more quality players on his rosters, many would still be here 3 years later. If we still suck in 2 years then you can start blaming it on McD and whoever is running the team now. By then, you can't blame Shanahan as a primary reason as 5 years is plenty of time to rebuild or at least not suck.

QFT :thumbsup:

BowlenBall
11-02-2011, 10:47 AM
As of right now, the poll percentages add up to 180.83%....

broncocalijohn
11-02-2011, 12:11 PM
As of right now, the poll percentages add up to 180.83%....

as explained before, it is multiple choice selections. Read some posts here that told you which oneS they choose. Anyone think it is just on one person is crazy. OP should have stated multiple choice, though.

24champ
11-02-2011, 12:52 PM
Umm, he doesnt see McDaniels as the primary. It is multiple choice Agamemnon so you can have more than one primary. Hell, you can check off everyone on the OP list if it wasn't asking primary , even blaming Fox for this would be higher in %. You should easily be able to pick 2 and many can pick 3 to blame. Not including Josh McDaniels who took an average team to absolute **** is assinine. Champ24 defended him then and is still defending him now as he wants to NOT give McD the primary reason. I don't know what else to call it but he couldnt draft, couldnt keep coaches and couldnt coach very well on the field after those 6 wins. Looks like a loser to me.

Most of the fault lies with the Owner. Did McD make mistakes? Yes, he was learning on the job about how to run an ENTIRE FRANCHISE. Again, it was Bowlen that created that environment for McD to fail, since Bowlen/Ellis were the ones who really made the "primary" decisions.

Sorry you don't see the entire picture here, and where the real problem lies. Bowlen said he would take back this franchise and run it better, and all he's done is crashed and burned it to the ground.

MacGruder
11-02-2011, 12:56 PM
Why aren't Cutler and Bradnon Marshal up there on this poll?

Those guys being the buttheads they are is why Bowlen couldn't get a better coach and had to get McDaniels..

Those guys are why McD had to trade them away for nothing in return.

It is those boneheads that set this team back so far.. or whoever drafted them.

jhns
11-02-2011, 12:58 PM
Everything post Shanahan is responsible. He nrver sucked this much. Everyone after him has. Pretty easy to figure out where the problem is/was.