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Requiem
10-31-2011, 09:38 AM
Changes for the Denver Broncos (Moving Forward)

http://broncotalk.net/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/xanders_elway_fox.jpg

Staff Changes. Replace Adam Gates @ QB Coach and if McCoy cannot muster enough production at OC it might be apt to look that direction as well.

New QBOTF. Nothing is ever a sure bet in the draft, but I think it is time to go that route. A QB cannot be successful in the NFL and have effectiveness when he is a ~ 50% passer. Tim can still serve a roll on this team and get production, but I don't want or see him as our long-term option.

Man On The Run. Our best running back is on the sidelines and reaching the age where most become ineffective. I'm a big McGahee fan, but it might be wise for the Broncos to search for the next runner of the franchise as Moreno has disappointed and Ball is simply a reserve player. I would ignore Trent Richardson this year and wait until 2013 to address this if the right options aren't there past round one.

Line Swing. At the end of the year kick Franklin inside to guard because he has absolutely no ability to handle speed rushers off the edge. Let him maul next to Clady in the running game and play to his strength. Beadles is an average right tackle and didn't look great when replacing Harris, so we must seek an upgrade at RT, though I have my doubts that Franklin will be moved. I'd also bring in a veteran to unseat JD Walton if he doesn't improve.

Receiver Additions. Eric Decker and Demaryius Thomas are likely our top two options heading into next off-season. I don't see Eddie sticking around, and I'm not going to count on Willis and Co. to be part of the team moving forward. This is a good year for free agent wide receivers and I think the Broncos should go that route to obtain a guy who can have the most impact. The 2012 draft is loaded with receivers, but I think Denver needs to evaluate other options much earlier.

Replace Elvis. Hindsight is 20/20 and it looks like the Dumervil signing was a bad one. He has gotten some hurries in the pass rush, but consistently loses his contain assignments against the run and gets flushed inside by even average OL. ~ 14 million a year for a situational player just isn't worth it. We need to find a way to change up his contract or get rid of him if we want our defensive front four to not have serious liability. Whether it is FA or the Draft, we need to add some dynamic here.

Defensive Focus. The Broncos need starter upgrades on every level of the defense. DL, CB and ILB are all areas of concern, but if the Broncos do poor the rest of the way out, they should be able to upgrade these long-term in the draft. I think there are some great ILB prospects and a good amount of zone coverage corners in this draft. If Dawkins retires, we will need to search for veteran safety options as well.

Is there anything missing?

KO5K
10-31-2011, 09:41 AM
You need about 50 new players.

Pick Six
10-31-2011, 09:44 AM
I haven't seen much of Trent Richardson, but why do you think we should pass on him?

Requiem
10-31-2011, 09:44 AM
You need about 50 new players.

I would say that our team honestly has maybe 5 starter level worthy players on each side of the ball. That might be a kind estimate.

bendog
10-31-2011, 09:45 AM
caption

"ya see, my left hand is where we were in the two champtionship years, my right hand is where we were when we lost three superbowls, and right now this team is in this water bottle."

oubronco
10-31-2011, 09:46 AM
Don't worry there will be alot of roster purge this offseason

jhns
10-31-2011, 09:47 AM
Get rid of McCoy, Xanders, and Ellis first. Then we can consider getting better.

ludo21
10-31-2011, 09:48 AM
so basically a new team?

check

edog24
10-31-2011, 09:48 AM
This will be a depressing thread (aren't they all today?)

If you are judging positions based on sheer talent and ability and what our needs are, I think qb is actually one position where we have some talent.

Granted, none of them look like QBOTF potential, but Orton has the ability to be serviceable if the rest of the team is decent and the play calling improves.

I give Tim to the end of the year to evaluate this. If Fox abandons Tebow in the next week then it shows he is completely in over his head and has no business being a HC anymore.

The upside is that this is a talented draft. My personal opinion is our biggest needs are:

DE
DB
OL
RB
WR

If we have a top 5 pick (which looks likely), I wouldn't be opposed to bundling picks and trading down, we are basically an expansion team at this point talentwise.

Requiem
10-31-2011, 09:50 AM
I haven't seen much of Trent Richardson, but why do you think we should pass on him?

I think that the 2013 class is going to present a lot better options and value for the team.

The uncertainty with the junior and redshirt sophomore prospects this year is that with the new rookie wage scale, unless these prospects are deemed first our second rounders, I doubt a lot of them will be wanting to head into the NFL. Richardson for sure is going to go, but you can't assume guys like Miller (Miami) Polk (Washington) Ball (Wisconsin) are going to declare. Either way, there will be better value for the prospect we are getting at RB outside a top selection.

I like Vick Ballard as a mid-round option at running back, someone who runs with authority inside and could provide us some muster in the red zone.

Ray Finkle
10-31-2011, 09:52 AM
I would say that our team honestly has maybe 5 starter level worthy players on each side of the ball. That might be a kind estimate.

Clady
Kuper
Von
Champ
maybe DJ or Bunkley....

I cannot even get 7 total.

bendog
10-31-2011, 10:01 AM
Clady
Kuper
Von
Champ
maybe DJ or Bunkley....

I cannot even get 7 total.

I think Decker has real promise. Franklin will be ok. Too early to be down on Moore or Carter or Julius Thomas. I suspect Irving may have a similar career to Keith Burns. Vaughn is not a first team guy, but he isn't useless.

Thing is that of the vets, McD traded away the farm and didn't get quality replacements, so there's no base of talent. It'll take more than three drafts.

KO5K
10-31-2011, 10:10 AM
Franklin will be ok.

lol

Traveler
10-31-2011, 10:16 AM
I think Decker has real promise. Franklin will be ok. Too early to be down on Moore or Carter or Julius Thomas. I suspect Irving may have a similar career to Keith Burns. Vaughn is not a first team guy, but he isn't useless.

Thing is that of the vets, McD traded away the farm and didn't get quality replacements, so there's no base of talent. It'll take more than three drafts.


This goes deeper than McDaniels. Sure, he seems to have whiffed on several high draft choices (four 1st's and four 2nd's) but this franchise has hardly any players remaining from 2000 to 2007.

No foundational players from any those drafts is why we are devoid of talent. EFX has alot work to do (read years) to make this franchise competitive again.

DenverBroncosJM
10-31-2011, 10:21 AM
The whole draft really depends on tebow.

If he plays like he did yesterday I can see us giving up our next two 1's and 2's and maybe a 3rd to try and get luck. If that happens we have a qb but we will have some glaring problems else where unless we drop big money in FA which I think we saw this year isn't going to happen.

Taco John
10-31-2011, 10:22 AM
Changes for the Denver Broncos (Moving Forward)

http://broncotalk.net/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/xanders_elway_fox.jpg

Staff Changes. Replace Adam Gates @ QB Coach and if McCoy cannot muster enough production at OC it might be apt to look that direction as well.

New QBOTF. Nothing is ever a sure bet in the draft, but I think it is time to go that route. A QB cannot be successful in the NFL and have effectiveness when he is a ~ 50% passer. Tim can still serve a roll on this team and get production, but I don't want or see him as our long-term option.

Man On The Run. Our best running back is on the sidelines and reaching the age where most become ineffective. I'm a big McGahee fan, but it might be wise for the Broncos to search for the next runner of the franchise as Moreno has disappointed and Ball is simply a reserve player. I would ignore Trent Richardson this year and wait until 2013 to address this if the right options aren't there past round one.

Line Swing. At the end of the year kick Franklin inside to guard because he has absolutely no ability to handle speed rushers off the edge. Let him maul next to Clady in the running game and play to his strength. Beadles is an average right tackle and didn't look great when replacing Harris, so we must seek an upgrade at RT, though I have my doubts that Franklin will be moved. I'd also bring in a veteran to unseat JD Walton if he doesn't improve.

Receiver Additions. Eric Decker and Demaryius Thomas are likely our top two options heading into next off-season. I don't see Eddie sticking around, and I'm not going to count on Willis and Co. to be part of the team moving forward. This is a good year for free agent wide receivers and I think the Broncos should go that route to obtain a guy who can have the most impact. The 2012 draft is loaded with receivers, but I think Denver needs to evaluate other options much earlier.

Replace Elvis. Hindsight is 20/20 and it looks like the Dumervil signing was a bad one. He has gotten some hurries in the pass rush, but consistently loses his contain assignments against the run and gets flushed inside by even average OL. ~ 14 million a year for a situational player just isn't worth it. We need to find a way to change up his contract or get rid of him if we want our defensive front four to not have serious liability. Whether it is FA or the Draft, we need to add some dynamic here.

Defensive Focus. The Broncos need starter upgrades on every level of the defense. DL, CB and ILB are all areas of concern, but if the Broncos do poor the rest of the way out, they should be able to upgrade these long-term in the draft. I think there are some great ILB prospects and a good amount of zone coverage corners in this draft. If Dawkins retires, we will need to search for veteran safety options as well.

Is there anything missing?


I appreciate the post, but you're talking about trying to do this stuff in one offseason, apparently, and that's not going to happen... You're talking about drafting a QB and replacing Dumervil in one offseason? Adding receivers and a new runningback? A defensive focus at DL, CB and ILB?

Anyone could come up with this stuff. The question is priority. Should we prioritize the QB position? If we do, then we can't expect to have an answer at DE, DL, CB - and doubtful at either WR or RB.

The question I have is what is more important: replacing a quarterback, or building the rest of the team. My argument is that reinvesting in the QB position at this point only delays the building of the rest of the team that needs to happen ASAP.

Gort
10-31-2011, 10:25 AM
Clady
Kuper
Von
Champ
maybe DJ or Bunkley....

I cannot even get 7 total.

Colquist
Prater

although they are special teams

bendog
10-31-2011, 10:36 AM
I appreciate the post, but you're talking about trying to do this stuff in one offseason, apparently, and that's not going to happen... You're talking about drafting a QB and replacing Dumervil in one offseason? Adding receivers and a new runningback? A defensive focus at DL, CB and ILB?

Anyone could come up with this stuff. The question is priority. Should we prioritize the QB position? If we do, then we can't expect to have an answer at DE, DL, CB - and doubtful at either WR or RB.

The question I have is what is more important: replacing a quarterback, or building the rest of the team. My argument is that reinvesting in the QB position at this point only delays the building of the rest of the team that needs to happen ASAP.

The answer to your question depends on the talent available at each position. Shanahan went for need every year, but he finally learned to allocate whatever picks he had to find draft slots that had the best chance to yield players. You are right that it's a multi-year project, but I can't blame Requiem for accurately analyzing some/most of the weakness (not that I agree with everything). But if Mia wanted Tebow to sell tix and three more no. 1's for Luck, I wouldn't complain if Elway bet the ranch. But on the other hand, if the FO looks at the 2013 draft as having good qb depth, I wouldn't even complain if he sold the second rd pick for a first in 2013. The six for Lloyd isn't worthless either. I can let him move from the fifth rd to the fourth rd if that round has depth at a need position.

HILife
10-31-2011, 10:40 AM
caption

"ya see, my left hand is where we were in the two champtionship years, my right hand is where we were when we lost three superbowls, and right now this team is in this water bottle."

"John sure has a pretty mouth." ~ Brian Xanders

colonelbeef
10-31-2011, 10:41 AM
Step 1.

Build a time machine, go back to 2008, kill Josh McDaniels, keep the offense we had in place.

Taco John
10-31-2011, 10:47 AM
The answer to your question depends on the talent available at each position. Shanahan went for need every year, but he finally learned to allocate whatever picks he had to find draft slots that had the best chance to yield players. You are right that it's a multi-year project, but I can't blame Requiem for accurately analyzing some/most of the weakness (not that I agree with everything). But if Mia wanted Tebow to sell tix and three more no. 1's for Luck, I wouldn't complain if Elway bet the ranch. But on the other hand, if the FO looks at the 2013 draft as having good qb depth, I wouldn't even complain if he sold the second rd pick for a first in 2013. The six for Lloyd isn't worthless either. I can let him move from the fifth rd to the fourth rd if that round has depth at a need position.



You're talking about trading away three number 1's!?!?!?!?!

Even if we get Luck, how do we come out ahead? You can be certain that I would complain about that trade. Luck isn't going to have any shot of doing any better than any of our quarterbacks for years if we pull that trade. We have way too many needs on both sides of the ball for that trade to be worth our while.

If all we needed was to plug in a quarterback, I'd be much more open to this idea. But a quarterback isn't going to come in here and magically fix all of our problems.

Taco John
10-31-2011, 10:47 AM
Tebow got sacked 7 times yesterday. Luck would look awful behind this offensive line, and half the forum would be talking about what a bust he looks like.

jhns
10-31-2011, 10:50 AM
Get rid of McCoy, Xanders, and Ellis first. Then we can consider getting better.

Just realized that I left Fox off this list. I don't like much of anything that he has done this year. He needs fired as well.

colonelbeef
10-31-2011, 10:53 AM
Just realized that I left Fox off this list. I don't like much of anything that he has done this year. He needs fired as well.

The personnel is the A1 problem here. Fox isn't doing Tebow any favors, but I am starting to think that it's by design. They don't think they can win with him @ QB, so they are allowing the gameplan to sink him. Forcing Tebow to be a pocket QB is a joke.

Ellis and Xanders are useless and have to go, completely agree. Both were complicit in the McDaniels embarrassment and subsequent personnel blunders, therefore both are lousy NFL evaluators and should be fired.

edog24
10-31-2011, 10:54 AM
Tebow got sacked 7 times yesterday. Luck would look awful behind this offensive line, and half the forum would be talking about what a bust he looks like.

Orton was only sacked nine times leading up to Tebow's start, now Timmy-13 sacks, 2 games. Orton is a sloth, we all know this. This mostly has to do with quick reads more than mobility IMO.

BroncoInferno
10-31-2011, 10:57 AM
You're talking about trading away three number 1's!?!?!?!?!

Even if we get Luck, how do we come out ahead? You can be certain that I would complain about that trade. Luck isn't going to have any shot of doing any better than any of our quarterbacks for years if we pull that trade. We have way too many needs on both sides of the ball for that trade to be worth our while.

If all we needed was to plug in a quarterback, I'd be much more open to this idea. But a quarterback isn't going to come in here and magically fix all of our problems.

You are greatly underestimating the impact a top QB has on a roster. Don't believe me? Look at Indy. Basically the same roster last season is a division winning playoff team with Manning, a hopeless joke this season without him. Put a Manning or Rodgers under center for Denver with this same collection of players and you have at minimum a playoff contender. If Luck is on that level, he is absolutely worth 3 1sts.

bendog
10-31-2011, 10:58 AM
Tebow got sacked 7 times yesterday. Luck would look awful behind this offensive line, and half the forum would be talking about what a bust he looks like.

of course they would, but it's a non-restricted forum. As for three no 1's, that should have been the cost of elway, but Irsay panicked. And, really, all it'd cost Den is it's first and second in 2012 (plus whatever draft value it cost to move from one of the top 5 2nd rd picks to the bottom of the first) and it's first in 2013. If Elway thinks Luck is a guy who could take one of those last two Dan R66v6s team's to a superbowl, the price is cheap.

edog24
10-31-2011, 11:02 AM
The personnel is the A1 problem here. Fox isn't doing Tebow any favors, but I am starting to think that it's by design. They don't think they can win with him @ QB, so they are allowing the gameplan to sink him. Forcing Tebow to be a pocket QB is a joke.

Ellis and Xanders are useless and have to go, completely agree. Both were complicit in the McDaniels embarrassment and subsequent personnel blunders, therefore both are lousy NFL evaluators and should be fired.

See I don't get this train of thought. Everyone here seems to be willing to jump on board with the FO sucking intentionally for one reason or another. First it was the escalator theory with why Tebow wasn't playing, I'll admit, it made sense to me, but now that theory is out the window with Timmy starting probably for the rest of the year.

Now, we think the FO is intentionally manipulating the playbook to make him look like a terrible qb?

Are we really dancing around what is most likely the obvious reality: A FO and HC that has done the same thing their whole career, unwilling and unable to innovate to adapt to today's rapidly changing NFL?

And, basically has no effing clue on immediately improving this team and no path forward on how to win games!

bendog
10-31-2011, 11:08 AM
See I don't get this train of thought. Everyone here seems to be willing to jump on board with the FO sucking intentionally for one reason or another. First it was the escalator theory with why Tebow wasn't playing, I'll admit, it made sense to me, but now that theory is out the window with Timmy starting probably for the rest of the year.

Now, we think the FO is intentionally manipulating the playbook to make him look like a terrible qb?

Are we really dancing around what is most likely the obvious reality: A FO and HC that has done the same thing their whole career, unwilling and unable to innovate to adapt to today's rapidly changing NFL?

And, basically has no effing clue on immediately improving this team and no path forward on how to win games!

Elway has no idea what a qb needs to be able to do to win in today's nfl. Of course, this makes perfect sense.

edog24
10-31-2011, 11:09 AM
Elway has no idea what a qb needs to be able to do to win in today's nfl. Of course, this makes perfect sense.

When I see it, I will let you know. I haven't seen it yet this season unfortunately.

BroncoMan4ever
10-31-2011, 11:10 AM
You need about 50 new players.

what 3 should we bother to keep? Miller.............

lod01
10-31-2011, 11:11 AM
:tebow:

troya900
10-31-2011, 11:11 AM
First it was the escalator theory with why Tebow wasn't playing, I'll admit, it made sense to me, but now that theory is out the window with Timmy starting probably for the rest of the year.

Wait wait wait!! Wasn't the escalator if Tebow played more than 55% of the SNAPS??. This explains perfectly Fox and McCoys gameplan! They are wanting Timmy to have as many 3 and outs as possible so he doesn't reach that escalator! :peace:

BroncoMan4ever
10-31-2011, 11:12 AM
When I see it, I will let you know. I haven't seen it yet this season unfortunately.

yes, because we all know that Elway is the one who brought in Orton, Tebow and Quinn. Elway knows exactly what a true elite QB looks like but has no been in a position to get one...yet

Pony Boy
10-31-2011, 11:13 AM
Orton was only sacked nine times leading up to Tebow's start, now Timmy-13 sacks, 2 games. Orton is a sloth, we all know this. This mostly has to do with quick reads more than mobility IMO.

or could be Orton had Lloyd

bowtown
10-31-2011, 11:14 AM
what 3 should we bother to keep? Miller.............

Miller
Collquit
Prater
Clady
Doom
Decker
Kuper

I think this is the young nucleus we have to build off of, with Champ being the one vet.

Everyone else is expendable until they can prove otherwise.

edog24
10-31-2011, 11:15 AM
yes, because we all know that Elway is the one who brought in Orton, Tebow and Quinn. Elway knows exactly what a true elite QB looks like but has no been in a position to get one...yet

I agree with you there. I don't believe Elway (maybe? I don't know) is directly influencing on the field play calling either. They made a good pick with Von, so that's something.

I am far from impressed with the play calling, it looks ancient and it worries me for our future years with this HC/FO staff.

BroncoMan4ever
10-31-2011, 11:16 AM
You are greatly underestimating the impact a top QB has on a roster. Don't believe me? Look at Indy. Basically the same roster last season is a division winning playoff team with Manning, a hopeless joke this season without him. Put a Manning or Rodgers under center for Denver with this same collection of players and you have at minimum a playoff contender. If Luck is on that level, he is absolutely worth 3 1sts.

i agree completely...if it was a certainty that Luck would be as good as advertised. if he was, and Elway decided to trade 3 1sts for him I would have no problem as it sets the position for at least the next decade and fills the biggest need on this team.

bendog
10-31-2011, 11:20 AM
When I see it, I will let you know. I haven't seen it yet this season unfortunately.

Of course, Elway's game was nothing like Rodgers, Rapesburgers, Breese, Cam's, Eli, Cutler . . . why even Matt Stafford plays the position completely differently.

edog24
10-31-2011, 11:25 AM
Of course, Elway's game was nothing like Rodgers, Rapesburgers, Breese, Cam's, Eli, Cutler . . . why even Matt Stafford plays the position completely differently.

I am not questioning Elway's past game, nor his past abilities at QB. I am questioning our HC/FO staff on how this season has been handled up to this point. IMO they should have dumped McCoy from the get go, and if they aren't committed fully to Tebow, just cut him to make the roster space.

The way we are playing right now gives me the impression they are clueless and searching for answers all over the place.

BroncoMan4ever
10-31-2011, 11:29 AM
Miller
Collquit
Prater
Clady
Doom
Decker
Kuper

I think this is the young nucleus we have to build off of, with Champ being the one vet.

Everyone else is expendable until they can prove otherwise.

i forgot about our ST aces. but honestly i don't think all those guys are as valuable to the team. i say Miller for potential and the flashes he is showing this season. Prater and Colquitt because they are right near the best in the league level. outside of them not so sure.

Clady would have been an undoubted fixture for this team for the next decade had this question been brought up 3 years ago. but his play of late is nowhere near what it was when he was a 2nd team all pro and the Bronco nation fell in love with the guy. now he looks average and that could be just from playing on a ****ty line on a ****ty team but he hasn't looked great.

Doom certainly does not look like the guy we gave huge money to. nagging injuries and that rumor about him no longer juicing is starting to look like it was real, because he is not the same player anymore. it wouldd not surprise me to see him moved to a 3-4 team in the offseason.

Decker is someone i am not sure about. you see glimpses of his ability, but with the WR spot i really am never sure about anything. they come and go and one minute are great and the next they suck.

Kuper has been the lone bright spot on this line this season. it doesn't show much because of all the crap around him, but he has been our best linemen.

and your idea about Champ being the lone veteran keeper shouldn't happen. his injuries are becoming a yearly occurence, he is losing a step, is no longer the shutdown corner he once was. he is still very good but what will he be in 2014-2015? he will be a shell of his former self. as good a player for this team as Champ has been i think it is in his best interests to try for a ring on a competitive team. he wasted his prime in 2 places that weren't real competitors. i say him, Dawkins, DJ and Doom should be trade pieces in the offseason. unload them and their contracts and rebuild with the picks we get for them.

bendog
10-31-2011, 11:39 AM
I don't think that champ or doom's contracts make them tradeable. Doom still has two years at over ten million, and champ's contract was not a bargain for a guy with his remaining skills.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=5403260

BroncoMan4ever
10-31-2011, 11:40 AM
I am not questioning Elway's past game, nor his past abilities at QB. I am questioning our HC/FO staff on how this season has been handled up to this point. IMO they should have dumped McCoy from the get go, and if they aren't committed fully to Tebow, just cut him to make the roster space.

The way we are playing right now gives me the impression they are clueless and searching for answers all over the place.

dude you are going into hysterics over something that isn't a quick fix. why should they have dumped McCoy? for McDumbass he was OC in name alone, everything on the offensive side of the ball was McDumbass. McCoy had the position with Fox in Carolina and Fox wanted his OC back. also it is almost impossible to completely redesign an offense midway through a season and that is what Tebow backers don't understand. sure a few new plays can be added, but you can't put together an entirely new offense and expect to have success with it. you have to try and make it work with what you have and what Tebow has learned.

how can this FO/coaching staff be fully committed to Tebow? they didn't pick him they inherited him. his contract was guaranteed for this season and the idea of paying a guy that much and releasing him is crazy. they are doing what they have to do with him. finding out is he the guy, can he be the guy or do we need to find the guy?

this is a team that was going nowhere in 2011. this is full on rebuild mode in Denver. they are finding out what pieces they have and what pieces they don't, so that moving forward they know what needs to be fixed.

sadly it looks like Tebow is not the answer. yes he is fun to watch and occasionally gives near heart attack feeling at the end of games, but his game has regressed even from last season. he is completing less than 50% of his passes, and is missing a lot of wide open receiver(honestly though he didn't have much WR help against Detroit)

i will guarantee right now. if Denver drafts a QB Tebow will not be back next season. this franchise will not go through another season of the START TEBOW bull****.

BroncoMan4ever
10-31-2011, 11:45 AM
I don't think that champ or doom's contracts make them tradeable. Doom still has two years at over ten million, and champ's contract was not a bargain for a guy with his remaining skills.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=5403260

i know what you mean. some team might overvalue Doom is what i am hoping. and Champ could be a good pickup for a team like Baltimore, Pitt, NE where there is so much talent around him that he can just be a cover guy instead of the hybrid CB/S/LB he has had to be in Denver. if he could just focus on his area of the field it could add a season or 2 to his legs and limit the injuries.

bendog
10-31-2011, 11:53 AM
I think this board was more invested wth a % of McD fans than there were overall, and it was painfully obvious early on how bad McD was, so signing Doom to a contract that at the time paid more guaranteed money to a pass rusher than any other had a lot more of "they'll kill me if I lose another one" than football sense. But it's done, and it's Bowlen's money, and I suspect they'll replace Doom in the 2013 draft. Even I was thinking, that they'd run him off too, even though Doom only made sense in a 3-4, and even there he has pass defense issues.

Champ's a first ballot HOFer. There's not gonna be a lot to cheer about for three more years.

Taco John
10-31-2011, 12:07 PM
Orton was only sacked nine times leading up to Tebow's start, now Timmy-13 sacks, 2 games. Orton is a sloth, we all know this. This mostly has to do with quick reads more than mobility IMO.

Indeed, but the point is Orton is a 5 year veteran and any rookie we bring in is going to struggle behind this line.

primetime714
10-31-2011, 12:20 PM
Indeed, but the point is Orton is a 5 year veteran and any rookie we bring in is going to struggle behind this line.

Just about any QB would struggle behind this line. Particularly with a weak passing scheme and sub par receivers. Tebow's throws have been horrible and he certainly doesn't know what he is doing there, but its a horrible situation for any QB.

Drek
10-31-2011, 12:22 PM
We're employing many of the same scouts who led Shanahan to his decade of draft dominance here, almost the exact same front office that powered McDaniels' draft boards, and yet we're talking about replacing player X with prospect Y?

Its time for a reality check people. This quote from George Scott (former Brewer's 1B) outlines our problems.

"If we're gonna win, the players gotta play better,
the coaches gotta coach better, the manager gotta manage better,
and the owners gotta own better."

Everyone sucks, everyone is failing. You want change you start at the top and flush out all the bull****.

Requiem
10-31-2011, 01:53 PM
I appreciate the post, but you're talking about trying to do this stuff in one offseason, apparently, and that's not going to happen... You're talking about drafting a QB and replacing Dumervil in one offseason? Adding receivers and a new runningback? A defensive focus at DL, CB and ILB?

Anyone could come up with this stuff. The question is priority. Should we prioritize the QB position? If we do, then we can't expect to have an answer at DE, DL, CB - and doubtful at either WR or RB.

The question I have is what is more important: replacing a quarterback, or building the rest of the team. My argument is that reinvesting in the QB position at this point only delays the building of the rest of the team that needs to happen ASAP.

Not in one off-season, but it will take time. Denver can certainly address at least five different positions through their first several selections and FA. Completely possible if they get their act together.

TheReverend
10-31-2011, 01:56 PM
This is such a good podcast topic.

vonqkilla
10-31-2011, 02:02 PM
I like the idea of Franklin at G. But a good RT, where do we get that?

Req, madden tonite?

bowtown
10-31-2011, 02:04 PM
I think I miss Mike Shanahan.

Rascal
10-31-2011, 02:08 PM
Tebow got sacked 7 times yesterday. Luck would look awful behind this offensive line, and half the forum would be talking about what a bust he looks like.

We also went up against one of the best dlines in the NFL. The o-line played like ****, but a lot of those sacks were on Tebow as well. There were numerous times when he held onto the ball way to long.

The Lions put 8 in the box, which eliminated the run, and tebow still couldn't pass.

Beadles needs to be replaced, and putting Franklin at LG makes sense. Of course we will still need a RT, but we also need to fill about 15-20 other starting positions.

Que
10-31-2011, 02:40 PM
I am actually ok with the last two weeks. You can all see tat I am a massive Tebow proponent. But more importantly I am an advocate for knowing, without a shadow of a doubt and no room for discussion, whether we need to take a QB in the first round. I figured that meant playing Tim from here on out. But, if he keeps looking like he's the guy from Quantum Leap just leaping in after every snap I think we will have our answer long before that. Totally cool leaving him in there for the next two games even if it means he will be sacked into paste. Then we can move on to Quinn.

Anyone know the free agent QB prospects at the end of the season?

Blueflame
10-31-2011, 02:43 PM
Indeed, but the point is Orton is a 5 year veteran and any rookie we bring in is going to struggle behind this line.

My take is that it's as simple as: Orton is right-handed. This means his blindside protection is Clady. Tebow is left-handed, so they're going to rush him from the right... meaning his blindside protector is the rookie (Franklin). Of course Tebow's going to be sacked more often. Clady (a veteran) > Franklin (a rookie). O-linemen generally take a while to develop but I don't think Franklin's quite up to the responsibility of watching the QB's blind side yet.

Add into the mix the fact that Tebow does have a tendency to hold onto the ball a little longer than he should (takes more time in decision-making) and sacks are going to be the logical result.

fontaine
10-31-2011, 03:10 PM
Did something change over the last few weeks?

I mean did I miss some sort of fundamental shift in the NFL where rookies/2nd year players get judged over one or two games?

Are we talking about the same 2nd year QB that was a long term project coming out of the draft? What the hell happened to giving young players some time to develop.

Most people wanted a rebuild with young players, now when those same young players ineviteabley struggle, lets cast them aside for more new young players? WTF?

Because if that's the way you want to build a team then let me throw in my knee jerk 2 cents worth:

-Rahim Moore was benched for Carter, cleary Moore is a bust. We need to draft a safety.
-Julius Thomas/Green keep getting injured and when healthy can't beat a scrub like Fells. They're both busts.
-Larsen barely contributed last game. Clearly he's regressing. BUST and locker room cancer.
-Ball hasn't taken over from Moreno. Why? He sucks, trade him for a conditional 7th.
-Nate Irving can't even get on the field. Clearly he disaproves of Tebow and sucks. BUST. LB is a top priority in the offseason.

Add this list to the others that have already been mentioned like Franklin/Tebow/Thomas etc.

Hell, let's just torch the entire roster every few games because clearly that's enough to tell whether any young player is going to succeed in the NFL.

jhns
10-31-2011, 03:13 PM
Did something change over the last few weeks?

I mean did I miss some sort of fundamental shift in the NFL where rookies/2nd year players get judged over one or two games?

Are we talking about the same 2nd year QB that was a long term project coming out of the draft? What the hell happened to giving young players some time to develop.

Most people wanted a rebuild with young players, now when those same young players ineviteabley struggle, lets cast them aside for more new young players? WTF?

Because if that's the way you want to build a team then let me throw in my knee jerk 2 cents worth:

-Rahim Moore was benched for Carter, cleary Moore is a bust. We need to draft a safety.
-Julius Thomas/Green keep getting injured and when healthy can't beat a scrub like Fells. They're both busts.
-Larsen barely contributed last game. Clearly he's regressing. BUST and locker room cancer.
-Ball hasn't taken over from Moreno. Why? He sucks, trade him for a conditional 7th.
-Nate Irving can't even get on the field. Clearly he disaproves of Tebow and sucks. BUST. LB is a top priority in the offseason.

Add this list to the others that have already been mentioned like Franklin/Tebow/Thomas etc.

Hell, let's just torch the entire roster every few games because clearly that's enough to tell whether any young player is going to succeed in the NFL.

People just love to hate Tebow. They know how irrational they are.

Jetmeck
10-31-2011, 03:16 PM
Step 1.

Build a time machine, go back to 2008, kill Josh McDaniels, keep the offense we had in place.

Thanks for that. I needed a good laugh..........

Jekyll15Hyde
10-31-2011, 03:17 PM
Tebow got sacked 7 times yesterday. Luck would look awful behind this offensive line, and half the forum would be talking about what a bust he looks like.

bwhahaaha. Tebow sacked himself most of the time. You have to take what the D gives you or get rid of the damn ball. Trying to get something out of nothing on every play leads to sacks

Jekyll15Hyde
10-31-2011, 03:18 PM
-Larsen barely contributed last game. Clearly he's regressing. BUST and locker room cancer.


Never was that good to begin with. Not on the roster next year. Decent pass catcher but not a blocker at all

edog24
10-31-2011, 03:26 PM
I think I miss Mike Shanahan.

We had a winner, went out, thought we came up with another winner, he burned the place to the ground, the only person left to hire was a proven loser. It's sad.

Requiem
10-31-2011, 05:53 PM
Fontaine, it is adding youth to our squad. Not replacing youth with youth. We are devoid of talent in a lot of places. Definitely room for improvement.

KevinJames
10-31-2011, 10:40 PM
this was a good post but I stopped reading at replace Elvis

cmon man if you are watching the game he is getting pressure on the QB.

0 sacks is misleading.

Harvitz81
11-01-2011, 12:17 AM
I'm all for giving up 3 1st rounders and possibly a 2nd or 2 to get Luck. It is a ton I know, but hear me out.

If Luck is a sure-fire next Peyton Manning as he's being billed out to be - how valueable is that? Clearly you can see this season how important Manning is to the Colts. Without an elite QB you have no shot at ever winning a SB. Just look at the past 10 years (sans Eli's luck win). So yes, if the brass truly feels that Luck is this type then by all means go for it. Sure we lose a lot of draft picks to rebuild, but in the intern you just have to make smart FA moves to fill the space.

I would much rather have a QB that will be a stud for the next 10-15 years than draft a 2nd rate QB so we can build the rest of the team. Look how long we have been trying to ind a QB since Elway. Look at the Dolphins since Marino. Solidify the QB and play patchwork for 3 years.

Tebow clearly is not the answer (yes, it's only 2 games but the dude is flat out not an NFL QB). I wouldn't even give Quinn a shot. Just play Tebow for the next 9 games to completely evaluate him and then go get a real QB in the draft. Who knows, maybe Tebow shows something by the end of the year to make you think he can pan out, but we still need to draft a QB IMHO. Sell out for Luck - we stink at first round picks for the most part anyway.

Popps
11-01-2011, 12:34 AM
Tebow got sacked 7 times yesterday. Luck would look awful behind this offensive line, and half the forum would be talking about what a bust he looks like.

Taco, look at Orton's sack numbers through 5 games compared with Tim's over two.

Our line has issues, but please... don't compare Luck to Tebow based on that reasoning. Luck is considered by some to be the most complete QB prospect ever.

Orton is supposedly a statue and yet managed to avoid sacks behind that same line.
Tebow just isn't a pro QB at this time.

As someone else stated, put Tom Brady behind our line and it would suddenly look serviceable, if not good.

vonqkilla
11-01-2011, 01:02 AM
Taco, look at Orton's sack numbers through 5 games compared with Tim's over two.

Our line has issues, but please... don't compare Luck to Tebow based on that reasoning. Luck is considered by some to be the most complete QB prospect ever.

Orton is supposedly a statue and yet managed to avoid sacks behind that same line.
Tebow just isn't a pro QB at this time.

As someone else stated, put Tom Brady behind our line and it would suddenly look serviceable, if not good.

Not at rt or lg. Or 40% of it. Tebow definitely has taken 13 sacks in 2 starts of which I estimate 7 are from his lack of efficient qbing.

Durango
11-01-2011, 03:11 AM
This will be a depressing thread (aren't they all today?)

If you are judging positions based on sheer talent and ability and what our needs are, I think qb is actually one position where we have some talent.

Granted, none of them look like QBOTF potential, but Orton has the ability to be serviceable if the rest of the team is decent and the play calling improves.

I give Tim to the end of the year to evaluate this. If Fox abandons Tebow in the next week then it shows he is completely in over his head and has no business being a HC anymore.

The upside is that this is a talented draft. My personal opinion is our biggest needs are:

DE
DB
OL
RB
WR

If we have a top 5 pick (which looks likely), I wouldn't be opposed to bundling picks and trading down, we are basically an expansion team at this point talentwise.

That's just about everybody. Kinda like taking Miller, Bailey, Clady and Kuper off the dump truck, then wash out everything else, or nearly everything.

It is depressing, but we've got some young guys that look like they're going to produce, namely Miller, Moore, maybe DT and Franklin (whatever position he ends up playing). Everyone else, including the coaches, should be on notice,.

I'm betting Bowlen is ready to just bite bullet for a couple of years, unwilling to make any change at the coaching position. Doesn't Shanahan finally come off the books after this season? Maybe Bowlen will be willing to invest a little more in the FA market again.

fontaine
11-01-2011, 03:24 AM
Fontaine, it is adding youth to our squad. Not replacing youth with youth. We are devoid of talent in a lot of places. Definitely room for improvement.

We've got the 2nd youngest OL in the league. Youngest Safeties in Moore/Carter. 2nd youngest starting WRs in Thomas/Decker.

Yeah, that's exactly what we need. More reshuffling of the OL to add even more youth.

Awesome.

cutthemdown
11-01-2011, 04:04 AM
Doom has a place on team but we do need a big mauling DE who rushes the passer well, can kick inside on passing downs, someone big and imposing.

Tebow I think would make a great NFL player, but not IMO a full time starting QB. I think though if his price tag was worked out he could be a good weapon. Let him be a bkup QB, play some as a role player in the backfield and maybe even along the LOS as a HB/TE hybrid type. I'm just guessing I don't know his skill set but he seems like he is big and fast with a nose for running the ball. Plus it would free up a roster spot not having to carry 3 qbs. You could have a starter, Tebow, then whoever the 2nd or 3rd qb is etc.

As far as a new QB goes we may not do it all through the draft. Broncos could really revamp the QB spot, let Orton walk, trade/cut/switch tebows position, then not only draft a new qb but also bring in a vet.

Elway will remember how he had steve deberg. He may draft and sign a QB IMO.

For sure we need a RB. That is really the most obvious skill position where you always need fresh talent. The drop like flies outside of a handful of special runner. Broncos should draft a couple rbs, or draft and bring in a FA etc etc.

As far as Franklin goes I have to admit I don't know enough about coaching the oline to say if he could kick inside and be better then Beadles. The solution may just be he isnt a starter yet, bring in another RT and let them battle it out. Sometimes you cant just switch people around, you just bring in more competition and kick them down the depth chart.

We can't get too upset. We knew the team was bad. Bunkley and Miller seem like pretty good starting players though, so Elways moves not all crap. You can't expect every draft choice and FA to work out. Moore IMO is being asked to cover like a CB too much. He may still end up a really good player for us once we get some better CB to help Bailey. Really Goodman just total crap. So sick of watching him have ball thrown at him 20 times a game and never making a big play.

cutthemdown
11-01-2011, 04:08 AM
We've got the 2nd youngest OL in the league. Youngest Safeties in Moore/Carter. 2nd youngest starting WRs in Thomas/Decker.

Yeah, that's exactly what we need. More reshuffling of the OL to add even more youth.

Awesome.

I think we just keep adding talent to all spots not manned by a great player. If we think we can find a better young RT in draft you take him and let them battle it out.

On the other side we don't have a lot of defenders making big plays. I think we could still draft playmakers at any spot outside of SLB, FS, SS. All the other spots could use a young playmaker.

At WR if Thomas can finish yr healthy, Decker looks good, we may be ok. But.....none of the TE impress me a whole lot yet, we could still looks at a blue chipper there in the draft of FA whatever.

The Broncos should be easy to draft for. They need players at almost every spot. You truly can select BPA right now IMO. QB, MLB, RB, DE, DT, CB could all make an argument for a round 1 selection.

Atwater His Ass
11-01-2011, 04:39 AM
I'm all for giving up 3 1st rounders and possibly a 2nd or 2 to get Luck. It is a ton I know, but hear me out.

If Luck is a sure-fire next Peyton Manning as he's being billed out to be - how valueable is that? Clearly you can see this season how important Manning is to the Colts. Without an elite QB you have no shot at ever winning a SB. Just look at the past 10 years (sans Eli's luck win). So yes, if the brass truly feels that Luck is this type then by all means go for it. Sure we lose a lot of draft picks to rebuild, but in the intern you just have to make smart FA moves to fill the space.

I would much rather have a QB that will be a stud for the next 10-15 years than draft a 2nd rate QB so we can build the rest of the team. Look how long we have been trying to ind a QB since Elway. Look at the Dolphins since Marino. Solidify the QB and play patchwork for 3 years.

Tebow clearly is not the answer (yes, it's only 2 games but the dude is flat out not an NFL QB). I wouldn't even give Quinn a shot. Just play Tebow for the next 9 games to completely evaluate him and then go get a real QB in the draft. Who knows, maybe Tebow shows something by the end of the year to make you think he can pan out, but we still need to draft a QB IMHO. Sell out for Luck - we stink at first round picks for the most part anyway.

Are you dumb or just stupid? If Luck was a sure-fire Manning, nobody would trade out of a position to draft him for any cost. Nobody. Ryan Leaf says hello. He was "can't miss" too. The fact that people can still fall so hard for college hype amazes me. Yet you're willing to throw in the towel on a guy who was already a known project who's started a whopping 5 games with two different coaching staffs and missed one off-season.

Hi Von Miller who we stink at first round draft picks with. Yeah, let's not get better at a known weakness, let's just mail it on a player who's a "lock". Not like almost every other position on this team couldn't be upgraded, but hey, Luck's a "lock" amirite???

Atwater His Ass
11-01-2011, 04:40 AM
We've got the 2nd youngest OL in the league. Youngest Safeties in Moore/Carter. 2nd youngest starting WRs in Thomas/Decker.

Yeah, that's exactly what we need. More reshuffling of the OL to add even more youth.

Awesome.

Beadles and Walton suck. Team definately needs to find replacements for them. Don't see how you can argue against upgrading those spots.

ZONA
11-01-2011, 05:00 AM
You're talking about trading away three number 1's!?!?!?!?!

Even if we get Luck, how do we come out ahead? You can be certain that I would complain about that trade. Luck isn't going to have any shot of doing any better than any of our quarterbacks for years if we pull that trade. We have way too many needs on both sides of the ball for that trade to be worth our while.

If all we needed was to plug in a quarterback, I'd be much more open to this idea. But a quarterback isn't going to come in here and magically fix all of our problems.

I would tend to agree but there is always the chance at hitting on some of your mid to late rounders. It's been done before. But, as you can clearly see with the Colts, a really good QB can make a huge difference. The biggest problem with drafting for other positions first and building a decent team and then trying to find a QB is that now you're drafting middle to late in the rounds and you most likely are not going to find a great QB that way. The NFL blueprint is to suck bad, get high picks and get your QB 1st while you are able to draft in the top 3 spots or so. Once you have him, then you can start to add the other talent.

Atwater His Ass
11-01-2011, 05:07 AM
lol at this whole premise. wtf.

ward63
11-01-2011, 05:46 AM
Don't worry...EFX has a "Plan". What that plan is? I have no friggin' clue!

fontaine
11-01-2011, 06:27 AM
Beadles and Walton suck. Team definately needs to find replacements for them. Don't see how you can argue against upgrading those spots.

Walton is improving and getting better.

Beadles isn't and I've already said we need a veteran in the offseason to compete against him.

I just don't put a lot of stock in making decisions based on 6-7 games on other young players that are actually developing and improving.

Franklin is a great example of this. He's already playing very well as a run blocker and he's had three poor games against speed rushers but wasn't this this weakeness coming out of the draft?

So instead of seeing what he can do over the course of the season and how he improves because he has the basic skillset of a good RT, let's just shuffle him inside at Guard?

Sorry but that's stupid.

cutthemdown
11-01-2011, 06:41 AM
Walton is improving and getting better.

Beadles isn't and I've already said we need a veteran in the offseason to compete against him.

I just don't put a lot of stock in making decisions based on 6-7 games on other young players that are actually developing and improving.

Franklin is a great example of this. He's already playing very well as a run blocker and he's had three poor games against speed rushers but wasn't this this weakeness coming out of the draft?

So instead of seeing what he can do over the course of the season and how he improves because he has the basic skillset of a good RT, let's just shuffle him inside at Guard?

Sorry but that's stupid.

Maybe his body style not compact and low enough to the ground leverage wise to be good inside.

Gort
11-01-2011, 06:56 AM
Taco, look at Orton's sack numbers through 5 games compared with Tim's over two.

Our line has issues, but please... don't compare Luck to Tebow based on that reasoning. Luck is considered by some to be the most complete QB prospect ever.

Orton is supposedly a statue and yet managed to avoid sacks behind that same line.
Tebow just isn't a pro QB at this time.

As someone else stated, put Tom Brady behind our line and it would suddenly look serviceable, if not good.

you've lost your mind.

Orton is a veteran pocket passer. he's up to NFL game speed. Tebow is none of these things. do you really think Orton has fewer sacks because Orton is more mobile than Tebow? if not, then what is your point? that Orton or any veteran pocket passer has the experience to decide and react quickly (to throw the ball away) if he's pressured? congratulations on recognizing the obvious. right now, Tebow is trying to do what the coaches tell him to do while not being at NFL game speed. he's not reacting, he's thinking. because it's his 5th game.

i swear, i'm losing faith in some of the people on this board who pretend to know what they are talking about. it's absurd to hold Tebow (after 5 games!!!) to the same standard as veteran QBs. anybody who wants to do that is stupid and should be ignored. whatever the future may hold for Tebow (good or bad), you have to evaluate him for what he is RIGHT NOW in this system with these coaches surrounded by these players.

Ray Finkle
11-01-2011, 07:03 AM
scrambling QB's are always going to take more sacks. I'm not mad at the sack's Tebow has taken.....rarely has he been blown up but more or less dragged to the ground.

If this is game 11 for him this season and he is still getting dropped 8 times a game, I'd be concerned.

lonestar
11-01-2011, 07:20 AM
Changes for the Denver Broncos (Moving Forward)

http://broncotalk.net/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/xanders_elway_fox.jpg

Staff Changes. Replace Adam Gates @ QB Coach and if McCoy cannot muster enough production at OC it might be apt to look that direction as well.

New QBOTF. Nothing is ever a sure bet in the draft, but I think it is time to go that route. A QB cannot be successful in the NFL and have effectiveness when he is a ~ 50% passer. Tim can still serve a roll on this team and get production, but I don't want or see him as our long-term option.

Man On The Run. Our best running back is on the sidelines and reaching the age where most become ineffective. I'm a big McGahee fan, but it might be wise for the Broncos to search for the next runner of the franchise as Moreno has disappointed and Ball is simply a reserve player. I would ignore Trent Richardson this year and wait until 2013 to address this if the right options aren't there past round one.

Line Swing. At the end of the year kick Franklin inside to guard because he has absolutely no ability to handle speed rushers off the edge. Let him maul next to Clady in the running game and play to his strength. Beadles is an average right tackle and didn't look great when replacing Harris, so we must seek an upgrade at RT, though I have my doubts that Franklin will be moved. I'd also bring in a veteran to unseat JD Walton if he doesn't improve.

Receiver Additions. Eric Decker and Demaryius Thomas are likely our top two options heading into next off-season. I don't see Eddie sticking around, and I'm not going to count on Willis and Co. to be part of the team moving forward. This is a good year for free agent wide receivers and I think the Broncos should go that route to obtain a guy who can have the most impact. The 2012 draft is loaded with receivers, but I think Denver needs to evaluate other options much earlier.

Replace Elvis. Hindsight is 20/20 and it looks like the Dumervil signing was a bad one. He has gotten some hurries in the pass rush, but consistently loses his contain assignments against the run and gets flushed inside by even average OL. ~ 14 million a year for a situational player just isn't worth it. We need to find a way to change up his contract or get rid of him if we want our defensive front four to not have serious liability. Whether it is FA or the Draft, we need to add some dynamic here.

Defensive Focus. The Broncos need starter upgrades on every level of the defense. DL, CB and ILB are all areas of concern, but if the Broncos do poor the rest of the way out, they should be able to upgrade these long-term in the draft. I think there are some great ILB prospects and a good amount of zone coverage corners in this draft. If Dawkins retires, we will need to search for veteran safety options as well.

Is there anything missing?

I can you your woody developing for your next jaysus.

Typical "dream" trying to be a puesdo GM again.

lonestar
11-01-2011, 07:29 AM
Step 1.

Build a time machine, go back to 2008, kill Josh McDaniels, keep the offense we had in place.

Yep that I that was so great between the 20's but stunk in the red zone.

The one with atleast three headcases on it.

One that we would have had to make some serious decisions on as
To who IF any of them that we could afford to resign them all.

Sure dream on.

lonestar
11-01-2011, 07:31 AM
You're talking about trading away three number 1's!?!?!?!?!

Even if we get Luck, how do we come out ahead? You can be certain that I would complain about that trade. Luck isn't going to have any shot of doing any better than any of our quarterbacks for years if we pull that trade. We have way too many needs on both sides of the ball for that trade to be worth our while.

If all we needed was to plug in a quarterback, I'd be much more open to this idea. But a quarterback isn't going to come in here and magically fix all of our problems.
To many folks have a woody for luck.
Acting like he is the only answer to the promised land they seem to forget

That even the great John needed a TEAM around him to win at the top
Level.

lonestar
11-01-2011, 07:34 AM
The personnel is the A1 problem here. Fox isn't doing Tebow any favors, but I am starting to think that it's by design. They don't think they can win with him @ QB, so they are allowing the gameplan to sink him. Forcing Tebow to be a pocket QB is a joke.

Ellis and Xanders are useless and have to go, completely agree. Both were complicit in the McDaniels embarrassment and subsequent personnel blunders, therefore both are lousy NFL evaluators and should be fired.


I think that Tebow will develop into a pocket passer with exprience ut forcing him to do so inside a year is beyond dumb.

Requiem
11-01-2011, 08:53 AM
I can you your woody developing for your next jaysus.

Typical "dream" trying to be a puesdo GM again.

I was just offering my opinions on what I think the team needs to do to be successful. Piss off.

Requiem
11-01-2011, 08:55 AM
We've got the 2nd youngest OL in the league. Youngest Safeties in Moore/Carter. 2nd youngest starting WRs in Thomas/Decker.

Yeah, that's exactly what we need. More reshuffling of the OL to add even more youth.

Awesome.

If you read my post, you will see upgrades, particularly referenced at veteran help on the OL.

fontaine
11-01-2011, 09:02 AM
If you read my post, you will see upgrades, particularly referenced at veteran help on the OL.

I don't have a problem with making upgrades.

But that's not the issue. The issue right now is where/when to make those upgrades.

A handful of games is NOT a reliable sample size to determine the long term success/failure of individual players. It takes some players years to develop, for some a lot less.

The point is we've only got a certain amount of resources in draft picks/FA money to spread around and to just discard young players be it Moore, Thomas, Tebow, Franklin etc just because they're not paying immediate dividends is a very short sighted way to build a team.

fontaine
11-01-2011, 09:17 AM
John Fox said it best in his latest press conference when he said internally the team doesn't look at all these issues as problems but "how do we fix them."

With someone like Tebow or Franklin that doesn't happen overnight, in a few weeks, or most times in a season.

The real issue is whether a player is either unwilling to improve by putting in the hard work necessary or doesn't have the physical talent in the first place to do so.

With Tebow we've got a QB that has that physical talent and work ethic to improve and so like I've said I'm not ready to judge his progression until the season is over.

It's the same with Franklin. You could slot him inside but that's not going to stop him from struggling against superior pass rushers or DCs to move speed rushers inside against him.

We've just got to be patient and ride this thing out.

lonestar
11-01-2011, 09:33 AM
Miller
Collquit
Prater
Clady
Doom
Decker
Kuper

I think this is the young nucleus we have to build off of, with Champ being the one vet.

Everyone else is expendable until they can prove otherwise.


Just so I have this straight. You would keep just those players and get rid of the others evade less of cap implications or being able to sign replacements.

Where are you going to get said players.

Thru the draft. That might be a max of 8 or so each year. So that means the rest via UFA or even RFA which means your giving away even more draft choices.
Just how many years do you think it will take to get all the studs you desire.

Oh BTW b y the time you get all of them IF all 7 choice each year are keepers your going to be replacing your original players because they are retired.


We have loads of talent that needs coaching and time together (OL) to get the timing and trust down.

Love to see all of the chicken littles on this site.
The sky is falling
The sky is falling
The sky is falling

Now do you feel better.

ScottXray
11-01-2011, 09:38 AM
See I don't get this train of thought. Everyone here seems to be willing to jump on board with the FO sucking intentionally for one reason or another. First it was the escalator theory with why Tebow wasn't playing, I'll admit, it made sense to me, but now that theory is out the window with Timmy starting probably for the rest of the year.

Now, we think the FO is intentionally manipulating the playbook to make him look like a terrible qb?

Are we really dancing around what is most likely the obvious reality: A FO and HC that has done the same thing their whole career, unwilling and unable to innovate to adapt to today's rapidly changing NFL?

And, basically has no effing clue on immediately improving this team and no path forward on how to win games!

Frankly by manipulating the playbook to make Tebow look bad they also are ensuring that he won't hit the escalator either, since they will pull him after 4-5 games or so...So both "evil schemes" tie together.

While this "scheming" seems to be ludicrous on first glance, the evidence is strong that supposedly "knowledgeable" football people are making incredibly stupid decisions.

Even the ESPN analysts are now mentioning that Tebow is behind an incredibly bad line, that the Denver play calls are NOT what any sane coach would put in for an inexperienced QB (or even an experienced one), and also that trading B Lloyd away when you are putting Tebow in was stupid, despite garnereing a low pick for him, but removing our only pro bowl level offensive weapon..

I find it impossible to believe that Fox doesn't see the game plan really doens't fit with what SHOULD be happening, and also that he is too stupid to see how things could be changed to help with the sacks and pressure Tebow is under on virtually every drop back.

And if you accept THAT premise, then Occams razor says that the most likely explanation is the simplest one..... that it is being done on purpose. That also indicates that he has been assured that he will not be held accountable for the record this season, and that means there is a
collusion by the FO staff.

Tebow is being sacrificed for whatever reason they might have. No he is not ready, and yes he needs a lot of work. But he has talents and ability that can be developed, whether as a TE, FB or maybe RZ option.

I hope that they are at least sane enough not to trade him away after this season for peanuts or cut him loose for nothing. Sooner or later he will come back to bite us.

lonestar
11-01-2011, 09:45 AM
I was just offering my opinions on what I think the team needs to do to be successful. Piss off.
You've been "playing" draft genius for years and had such a woody for jaysus you were totally oblivious to him being a head case. Your credibility went into the crapper.
So pardon me all to hell if I call you on this Male Bovine Excrement.

lonestar
11-01-2011, 09:52 AM
I don't have a problem with making upgrades.

But that's not the issue. The issue right now is where/when to make those upgrades.

A handful of games is NOT a reliable sample size to determine the long term success/failure of individual players. It takes some players years to develop, for some a lot less.

The point is we've only got a certain amount of resources in draft picks/FA money to spread around and to just discard young players be it Moore, Thomas, Tebow, Franklin etc just because they're not paying immediate dividends is a very short sighted way to build a team.
Great post.

Someone with some common sense that obviously did not grow up playing madden for your football knowledge.
Or for that matter FF like loads of "fans" here did.

Even Elway was not an instant star. Took him along time to develop into the HOF QB he became.

Not sure how many times he was benched for crappy play. In his first couple of years. And actually he did not develop into that stud and SMART QB until Mikey became his QB coach.

Why everyone is expecting Tebow to become a super star not mistake QB after one season is beyond belief.

Mat'hir Uth Gan
11-01-2011, 09:52 AM
Good post Requiem. I think you hit most of the trouble spots.


Here are my thoughts:

DEFENSE

I still like Cassius Vaughn as a developing outside CB, but I definitely feel we need another to compete to replace Goodman, and eventually Bailey. I do like the depth we have at nickel/slot with Harris, Wilhite, and Thompson. We should be able to keep the best two. I also like Bruton as safety depth, and Moore/Carter are clearly the duo of the future, along with Champ's inevitable switch in a few years. So, for me, in terms of secondary help, we just need one elite potential outside CB in the short term. I really like the CBs in this draft, I feel it's easily the deepest position if most of the Juniors come out. I believe there should be excellent talent through the 3rd Round.

In the front 7, I think we're fine at LB. Irving and Mays can continue to compete at MIKE. Williams' contract makes him untradeable and he's a decent player. If we needed a LB, it would be a WILL. But I think Woodyard is developing decently. Miller obviously has SAM locked down, though a player with a similar skillset for depth would be nice. As it is though, I don't see a big need at LB.

On the D-line, we're still a mess. Bunkley is the answer for a two down NT, and Ayers is serviceable as a starting Power End. That's about it. Dumervil needs to be in a 34 to "earn" his contract. In a 43, he's just a massively overpaid, above average one-dimensional Rush End. His contract makes him untradeable, and I'm not sure about the guaranteed monies in the event we think to release him. I think we're stuck with him. Between he, Ayers, and Miller essentially playing DE in nickel formations, I think our resources are tapped at that position for the foreseeable future. At DT, we desperately need a penetrating 3 tech. Vickerson wasn't remotely cutting it, and neither is Thomas or McBean. Any of the three would be solid backups in a rotation. The 2nd Round of the draft might have some answers there.


OFFENSE

Something needs to happen at QB. Either Tebow needs to show some serious improvement (which I still think is a possibility), or the team is going to swap #1s in 2012, as well as trade #1s in 2013 and 2014, to Indianapolis for Andrew Luck. Everything points to Luck and Denver happening unless Miami gets that selection, and even then, Luck might stage a power play. The information the other week involving the close long time friendship between Luck's dad and Elway sealed it for me. Unless Tebow plays out of this world and riles the fanbase to rabid levels, we will be drafting Andrew Luck. Which, while exciting in itself, would suck for draft gurus the next few years.

At RB, we need help. I actually still like Moreno as a 3rd down back. He's a very good blocker against the blitz, and has excellent hands. I'm with you on the RBs in this draft. I like Richardson, Polk, Miller, and Ballard as power backs. I'm just not sure any of the first three make it to our 2nd round selection. Ballard would be a nice get in the 3rd or 4th Round. A new FB, that actually blocks well, would be great also.

At WR and TE, we appear to be set for awhile. Some depth is probably needed. Fells should be resigned, he's been great. We might need a slot receiver type if Royal walks and Decker is kept outside. Not a huge concern overall for me though. We just need the young guys we have to get better.

On the O-line, the fix is really simple for me, and it's been obvious since the preseason. Move Franklin to LG, make Beadles a super reserve or have him challenge Walton at OC, and draft/sign a RT. I think Walton would be fine flanked by Franklin and Kuper. The new rookie wage scale makes drafting RTs in the 1st Round feasible. I wouldn't be surprised if we pull a "Dallas" and draft one of the big 3 OTs early in round 1. Clady hasn't exactly been the same since hurting his knee either.


Anyway, so quick summary:

Starting QB (if Tebow doesn't drastically improve)
Starting RT
Starting 3 Tech DT
Developmental Outside CB
Developmental Power RB
Starting Fullback

Rohirrim
11-01-2011, 09:54 AM
Frankly by manipulating the playbook to make Tebow look bad they also are ensuring that he won't hit the escalator either, since they will pull him after 4-5 games or so...So both "evil schemes" tie together.

While this "scheming" seems to be ludicrous on first glance, the evidence is strong that supposedly "knowledgeable" football people are making incredibly stupid decisions.

Even the ESPN analysts are now mentioning that Tebow is behind an incredibly bad line, that the Denver play calls are NOT what any sane coach would put in for an inexperienced QB (or even an experienced one), and also that trading B Lloyd away when you are putting Tebow in was stupid, despite garnereing a low pick for him, but removing our only pro bowl level offensive weapon..

I find it impossible to believe that Fox doesn't see the game plan really doens't fit with what SHOULD be happening, and also that he is too stupid to see how things could be changed to help with the sacks and pressure Tebow is under on virtually every drop back.

And if you accept THAT premise, then Occams razor says that the most likely explanation is the simplest one..... that it is being done on purpose. That also indicates that he has been assured that he will not be held accountable for the record this season, and that means there is a
collusion by the FO staff.

Tebow is being sacrificed for whatever reason they might have. No he is not ready, and yes he needs a lot of work. But he has talents and ability that can be developed, whether as a TE, FB or maybe RZ option.

I hope that they are at least sane enough not to trade him away after this season for peanuts or cut him loose for nothing. Sooner or later he will come back to bite us.

Putting all these "premises" together is a actually a violation of the Occam's Razor principle. Under Occam's razor, the explanation would be that Tebow is simply no good and no amount of trying to coach around that simple fact can work.

Rohirrim
11-01-2011, 09:56 AM
Great post.

Someone with some common sense that obviously did not grow up playing madden for your football knowledge.
Or for that matter FF like loads of "fans" here did.

Even Elway was not an instant star. Took him along time to develop into the HOF QB he became.

Not sure how many times he was benched for crappy play. In his first couple of years. And actually he did not develop into that stud and SMART QB until Mikey became his QB coach.

Why everyone is expecting Tebow to become a super star not mistake QB after one season is beyond belief.

You're so full of **** I'm surprised you can type.

Gort
11-01-2011, 09:56 AM
Great post.

Someone with some common sense that obviously did not grow up playing madden for your football knowledge.
Or for that matter FF like loads of "fans" here did.

Even Elway was not an instant star. Took him along time to develop into the HOF QB he became.

Not sure how many times he was benched for crappy play. In his first couple of years. And actually he did not develop into that stud and SMART QB until Mikey became his QB coach.

Why everyone is expecting Tebow to become a super star not mistake QB after one season is beyond belief.

Madden video games and fantasy football have created a whole generation of know-it-all fans who expect that all you have to do is make a few tweaks to any team and they can go from worst to first. it doesn't work that way.

Mat'hir Uth Gan
11-01-2011, 10:00 AM
John Fox said it best in his latest press conference when he said internally the team doesn't look at all these issues as problems but "how do we fix them."

With someone like Tebow or Franklin that doesn't happen overnight, in a few weeks, or most times in a season.

The real issue is whether a player is either unwilling to improve by putting in the hard work necessary or doesn't have the physical talent in the first place to do so.

With Tebow we've got a QB that has that physical talent and work ethic to improve and so like I've said I'm not ready to judge his progression until the season is over.

It's the same with Franklin. You could slot him inside but that's not going to stop him from struggling against superior pass rushers or DCs to move speed rushers inside against him.

We've just got to be patient and ride this thing out.


My issue with Franklin is that he doesn't have the athleticism to block speed rushers on an arc outside. You put him inside, he no longer has to deal with that. Now, the concern is whether he can pull adequately, and I've seen him do so previously. We may have been the only team in the NFL that projected Franklin to RT. Even Franklin said that he thought his fit was as an OG in the NFL. He gave RT a shot, I'm sure he's prideful and works hard, but he doesn't have the athleticism, and no amount of practice is going to make him get that hereditary talent. You either keep him at RT and babysit him with a TE on all obvious passing downs against top DEs, which limits your playcalling, or you move him inside and let him maul people. If I'm betting on Franklin or a DE, I'm taking the DE every time. If I'm betting on Franklin or a DT, I'm taking Franklin every time.

Mat'hir Uth Gan
11-01-2011, 10:05 AM
Madden video games and fantasy football have created a whole generation of know-it-all fans who expect that all you have to do is make a few tweaks to any team and they can go from worst to first. it doesn't work that way.

Well, to be completely fair, it has worked that way as of late in the NFL with the parity level being what it is. It's been somewhat common for bad teams to become winning teams in just one season. Look at San Francisco this year. A new coach and scheme, plus Aldon Smith, and it's been a juggernaut. That defense was solid last year, one draft pick in his rookie year has made it great.

I think we're only a few tweaks from being playoff contenders again. At least I hope so.

lonestar
11-01-2011, 10:13 AM
Frankly by manipulating the playbook to make Tebow look bad they also are ensuring that he won't hit the escalator either, since they will pull him after 4-5 games or so...So both "evil schemes" tie together.

While this "scheming" seems to be ludicrous on first glance, the evidence is strong that supposedly "knowledgeable" football people are making incredibly stupid decisions.

Even the ESPN analysts are now mentioning that Tebow is behind an incredibly bad line, that the Denver play calls are NOT what any sane coach would put in for an inexperienced QB (or even an experienced one), and also that trading B Lloyd away when you are putting Tebow in was stupid, despite garnereing a low pick for him, but removing our only pro bowl level offensive weapon..

I find it impossible to believe that Fox doesn't see the game plan really doens't fit with what SHOULD be happening, and also that he is too stupid to see how things could be changed to help with the sacks and pressure Tebow is under on virtually every drop back.

And if you accept THAT premise, then Occams razor says that the most likely explanation is the simplest one..... that it is being done on purpose. That also indicates that he has been assured that he will not be held accountable for the record this season, and that means there is a
collusion by the FO staff.

Tebow is being sacrificed for whatever reason they might have. No he is not ready, and yes he needs a lot of work. But he has talents and ability that can be developed, whether as a TE, FB or maybe RZ option.

I hope that they are at least sane enough not to trade him away after this season for peanuts or cut him loose for nothing. Sooner or later he will come back to bite us.

Overall good post

To me it is ineptitude more than on purpose.

Fox is and never has been offensively oriented. He knows defenses that is his bag. That said it amazes me that great Offensive minds like Mikey was could not reverse engineer a defense. Same goes for Defensive wizards.

If all you ever do is Come up with ways to defeat an offense how come you can't figue out how to defeat your own defense.

Since he seems not to know his ass from a. Teakettle about the O he needs to have someone that does.

I'm thinking he is comfortable with 'Mc Coy and therefore accepting what he is saying. And doing.

Why John E does but step in and put a stop to the total FUBar on game day is beyond me.

It was not like they did not know that they were playing a superb DL in both cases of OAK and DET.

Was listening to BT last night and Dave Logan said they need to change the passing to quick slants and screens to slow down the rush and get the 8-9 men on the box go away. Certainly will
Slow the pass rush down

Maybe he should apply as OC.

Gort
11-01-2011, 10:13 AM
Well, to be completely fair, it has worked that way as of late in the NFL with the parity level being what it is. It's been somewhat common for bad teams to become winning teams in just one season. Look at San Francisco this year. A new coach and scheme, plus Aldon Smith, and it's been a juggernaut. That defense was solid last year, one draft pick in his rookie year has made it great.

I think we're only a few tweaks from being playoff contenders again. At least I hope so.

you have to build up your roster first. there is only so much that smoke an mirrors can do. look at McDaniels 6-0 start in 2009 for example. a team like Detroit didn't suddenly become good. they stockpiled talent on their roster. when they had enough talent and the coaching/scheme was holding them back, they made a change and got a fresh new approach. but you need to have that talent in place first. has any team with a dearth of talent one year gone from worst to first the next? no.

looking at Denver, how can we be only a few tweaks away? let's say i told you you could upgrade 6 positions this offseason by trade or draft. what 6 positions would you change that would automatically make us a playoff team?

we have young receivers. we have an underperforming young RB and and an aging RB. we have nothing but question marks at QB. we have a young OL that plays unevenly from game to game. we have a good punter and a good kicker, but we have no return game. our special teams are not especially good. we have problems with the DL. we have problems at LB. we have aging veterans in the secondary. we don't have any young players who can cover like champ at CB, so he's not moving to S anytime soon. our defense doesn't tackle especially well. it doesn't force turnovers. we have practically no depth on the bench. this is a team with alot of holes. what 6 moves could you make that would fix those? i do agree that you can mask some of our holes with quality coaching and scheming, and that's where i give Shanny his due, but fundamentally, we don't have enough quality NFL players on this roster right now.

Taco John
11-01-2011, 10:14 AM
Taco, look at Orton's sack numbers through 5 games compared with Tim's over two.

Our line has issues, but please... don't compare Luck to Tebow based on that reasoning. Luck is considered by some to be the most complete QB prospect ever.

Orton is supposedly a statue and yet managed to avoid sacks behind that same line.
Tebow just isn't a pro QB at this time.

As someone else stated, put Tom Brady behind our line and it would suddenly look serviceable, if not good.

I expect that Luck would be better than Tebow at making the transition from the college game to the pro game. But I fully expect there to be a transition to make.

To me the discussion is moot because I don't think we're going to be in position to draft Luck. The question there is, do you think we should be sacrificing multiple high draft picks to chase him? I would think you, of all people, would see the benefit of using our picks for team infrastructure - like D-linemen, a middle linebacker, etc.

bowtown
11-01-2011, 10:18 AM
I expect that Luck would be better than Tebow at making the transition from the college game to the pro game. But I fully expect there to be a transition to make.

To me the discussion is moot because I don't think we're going to be in position to draft Luck. The question there is, do you think we should be sacrificing multiple high draft picks to chase him? I would think you, of all people, would see the benefit of using our picks for team infrastructure - like D-linemen, a middle linebacker, etc.

I def wouldn't trade any more than 5 1sts and a conditional 7th for him. That would be cutting off our nose to spite our face.

lonestar
11-01-2011, 10:39 AM
Here are my thoughts:
DEFENSE
I still like Cassius Vaughn as a developing outside CB, but I definitely feel we need another to compete to replace Goodman, and eventually Bailey. I do like the depth we have at nickel/slot with Harris, Wilhite, and Thompson. We should be able to keep the best two. I also like Bruton as safety depth, and Moore/Carter are clearly the duo of the future, along with Champ's inevitable switch in a few years. So, for me, in terms of secondary help, we just need one elite potential outside CB in the short term. I really like the CBs in this draft, I feel it's easily the deepest position if most of the Juniors come out. I believe there should be excellent talent through the 3rd Round.

In the front 7, I think we're fine at LB. Irving and Mays can continue to compete at MIKE. Williams' contract makes him untradeable and he's a decent player. If we needed a LB, it would be a WILL. But I think Woodyard is developing decently. Miller obviously has SAM locked down, though a player with a similar skillset for depth would be nice. As it is though, I don't see a big need at LB.

On the D-line, we're still a mess. Bunkley is the answer for a two down NT, and Ayers is serviceable as a starting Power End. That's about it. Dumervil needs to be in a 34 to "earn" his contract. In a 43, he's just a massively overpaid, above average one-dimensional Rush End. His contract makes him untradeable, and I'm not sure about the guaranteed monies in the event we think to release him. I think we're stuck with him. Between he, Ayers, and Miller essentially playing DE in nickel formations, I think our resources are tapped at that position for the foreseeable future. At DT, we desperately need a penetrating 3 tech. Vickerson wasn't remotely cutting it, and neither is Thomas or McBean. Any of the three would be solid backups in a rotation. The 2nd Round of the draft might have some answers there.


OFFENSE

Something needs to happen at QB. Either Tebow needs to show some serious improvement (which I still think is a possibility), or the team is going to swap #1s in 2012, as well as trade #1s in 2013 and 2014, to Indianapolis for Andrew Luck. Everything points to Luck and Denver happening unless Miami gets that selection, and even then, Luck might stage a power play. The information the other week involving the close long time friendship between Luck's dad and Elway sealed it for me. Unless Tebow plays out of this world and riles the fanbase to rabid levels, we will be drafting Andrew Luck. Which, while exciting in itself, would suck for draft gurus the next few years.

At RB, we need help. I actually still like Moreno as a 3rd down back. He's a very good blocker against the blitz, and has excellent hands. I'm with you on the RBs in this draft. I like Richardson, Polk, Miller, and Ballard as power backs. I'm just not sure any of the first three make it to our 2nd round selection. Ballard would be a nice get in the 3rd or 4th Round. A new FB, that actually blocks well, would be great also.

At WR and TE, we appear to be set for awhile. Some depth is probably needed. Fells should be resigned, he's been great. We might need a slot receiver type if Royal walks and Decker is kept outside. Not a huge concern overall for me though. We just need the young guys we have to get better.

On the O-line, the fix is really simple for me, and it's been obvious since the preseason. Move Franklin to LG, make Beadles a super reserve or have him challenge Walton at OC, and draft/sign a RT. I think Walton would be fine flanked by Franklin and Kuper. The new rookie wage scale makes drafting RTs in the 1st Round feasible. I wouldn't be surprised if we pull a "Dallas" and draft one of the big 3 OTs early in round 1. Clady hasn't exactly been the same since hurting his knee either.


Anyway, so quick summary:

Starting QB (if Tebow doesn't drastically improve)
Starting RT
Starting 3 Tech DT
Developmental Outside CB
Developmental Power RB
Starting Fullback

I can buy most of that. Not as hard a fix as most that are saying we have need of 35+ players.

lonestar
11-01-2011, 10:42 AM
I def wouldn't trade any more than 5 1sts and a conditional 7th for him. That would be cutting off our nose to spite our face.

I would not trade more than an addition first for him.

Otherwise you are draft poor for filling any other spots down the Line and God only knows that the DL is lousy past a player
Or
Two And if they do move Franklin inside that means atleast an number two if not a one for that spot.

Mat'hir Uth Gan
11-01-2011, 10:42 AM
Frankly by manipulating the playbook to make Tebow look bad they also are ensuring that he won't hit the escalator either, since they will pull him after 4-5 games or so...So both "evil schemes" tie together.

While this "scheming" seems to be ludicrous on first glance, the evidence is strong that supposedly "knowledgeable" football people are making incredibly stupid decisions.

Even the ESPN analysts are now mentioning that Tebow is behind an incredibly bad line, that the Denver play calls are NOT what any sane coach would put in for an inexperienced QB (or even an experienced one), and also that trading B Lloyd away when you are putting Tebow in was stupid, despite garnereing a low pick for him, but removing our only pro bowl level offensive weapon..

I find it impossible to believe that Fox doesn't see the game plan really doens't fit with what SHOULD be happening, and also that he is too stupid to see how things could be changed to help with the sacks and pressure Tebow is under on virtually every drop back.

And if you accept THAT premise, then Occams razor says that the most likely explanation is the simplest one..... that it is being done on purpose. That also indicates that he has been assured that he will not be held accountable for the record this season, and that means there is a
collusion by the FO staff.

Tebow is being sacrificed for whatever reason they might have. No he is not ready, and yes he needs a lot of work. But he has talents and ability that can be developed, whether as a TE, FB or maybe RZ option.

I hope that they are at least sane enough not to trade him away after this season for peanuts or cut him loose for nothing. Sooner or later he will come back to bite us.


I think you make good points, but I think it just comes down to stubborness. EFX want to run a pocket passing offense. And Tebow is going to either succeed in that type of offense or he's going to be replaced.

I don't think they like the fan pressure or hoopla one bit. And I still don't think they want to bet their NFL careers on Tebow, whom they didn't draft. All that is understandable.

It just means that they will help him a little with some unique plays, but that they are not going to tweak their longterm offensive strategy for him. He's going to have to sink or swim as a pocket passer. And I think they've told him this. He doesn't run very often, even when he should. In interviews he keeps talking about staying in the pocket, being a pocket passer, practicing what the coaches keep trying to teach him.

This is a crash course for Tebow. He knows it and he's forcing it. EFX believe in their theory of what a successful QB is, and they've told Tebow what he has to do to play QB for them. Is it sabotage? I don't think so. I think EFX is just at the point where he will either play how they want their QB to play, or they'll go a different direction. Elway prefers Luck, no doubt, but probably every football mind on the planet does.

Anyway, I think they could gameplan and playcall much more to Tebow's strengths if they were so inclined, but they aren't. It's their way or the high way, and Tebow has control of his destiny with Denver, even if the deck is stacked. So far, not good.

bendog
11-01-2011, 10:45 AM
I just don't see the kid having ANY strenghths in his game at this pt. Personality doesn't count for finding and hitting open receivers.

But if he makes a little progress each week, there is no logical option.

Mat'hir Uth Gan
11-01-2011, 11:07 AM
you have to build up your roster first. there is only so much that smoke an mirrors can do. look at McDaniels 6-0 start in 2009 for example. a team like Detroit didn't suddenly become good. they stockpiled talent on their roster. when they had enough talent and the coaching/scheme was holding them back, they made a change and got a fresh new approach. but you need to have that talent in place first. has any team with a dearth of talent one year gone from worst to first the next? no.

looking at Denver, how can we be only a few tweaks away? let's say i told you you could upgrade 6 positions this offseason by trade or draft. what 6 positions would you change that would automatically make us a playoff team?

we have young receivers. we have an underperforming young RB and and an aging RB. we have nothing but question marks at QB. we have a young OL that plays unevenly from game to game. we have a good punter and a good kicker, but we have no return game. our special teams are not especially good. we have problems with the DL. we have problems at LB. we have aging veterans in the secondary. we don't have any young players who can cover like champ at CB, so he's not moving to S anytime soon. our defense doesn't tackle especially well. it doesn't force turnovers. we have practically no depth on the bench. this is a team with alot of holes. what 6 moves could you make that would fix those? i do agree that you can mask some of our holes with quality coaching and scheming, and that's where i give Shanny his due, but fundamentally, we don't have enough quality NFL players on this roster right now.

I understand your point of view and it makes sense. We probably are closer to the Lions, in terms of a long rebuild, than a quick turnaround team.


If I had 6 moves to make the team competitive in one offseason, I would do the following:


1) Draft an elite QB (Luck, Barkley, Griffin, Jones) and throw him into a competition with Tebow to start.

2) Sign/draft a RT (Adcock, Adams, Wagner, Datko) and move Franklin to LG. Beadles becomes a super reserve at all O-line positions.

3) Sign/draft a 3 tech DT or two (Cox, Thompson, Reyes, Sweezy, Howard, Winn, Nowak, Lohr, Worthy, Crick, Roy)

4) Hire a new QB's coach and an up-and-coming Offensive Coordinator.

5) Draft a power RB in the mid rounds (Ballard)

6) Draft an outside CB in the mid rounds (Banks, Trufant, Poyer, Judie, Menzie, Hayward, Tandy, Robinson, Commings) -- Love the depth at CB this draft should have.

Gort
11-01-2011, 11:15 AM
I understand your point of view and it makes sense. We probably are closer to the Lions, in terms of a long rebuild, than a quick turnaround team.


If I had 6 moves to make the team competitive in one offseason, I would do the following:


1) Draft an elite QB (Luck, Barkley, Griffin, Jones) and throw him into a competition with Tebow to start.

2) Sign/draft a RT (Adcock, Adams, Wagner, Datko) and move Franklin to LG. Beadles becomes a super reserve at all O-line positions.

3) Sign/draft a 3 tech DT or two (Cox, Thompson, Reyes, Sweezy, Howard, Winn, Nowak, Lohr, Worthy, Crick, Roy)

4) Hire a new QB's coach and an up-and-coming Offensive Coordinator.

5) Draft a power RB in the mid rounds (Ballard)

6) Draft an outside CB in the mid rounds (Banks, Trufant, Poyer, Judie, Menzie, Hayward, Tandy, Robinson, Commings) -- Love the depth at CB this draft should have.

let's say all 6 of those moves on paper works perfectly. you need one other thing that you can't get quickly and that's depth. the reason the Packers went to the SB and won it last year is because they had incredible depth. despite all of their injuries, they still had enough guys who were quality NFL players coming off the bench to take up the slack. unless you're really lucky in this league, you won't escape the injury bug. we of all teams should know that.

fontaine
11-01-2011, 11:27 AM
My issue with Franklin is that he doesn't have the athleticism to block speed rushers on an arc outside. You put him inside, he no longer has to deal with that.

I've watched Franklin get off the snap extremely well, keep a low base and move his feet very well.

The athleticism is there, but the consistency is not. Also having a left handed QB is going to make it more difficult because Orton could throw the ball away when he saw pressure from the right side, where as Tebow is blind sided.

And typically guys with great feet/athleticism go higher in the draft as LTs so if you want a guy with better feet/athleticism you're going to have to draft a LT and move him over to the right side.

vonqkilla
11-01-2011, 11:34 AM
I would trade our 1st and 3 more for Luck.

This isnt 1998. We gotta be able to keep pace.

My problem with Luck is he steps up in the pocket unnecessarily sometimes, and his oline is dominating, so it makes it easier for him than it will be in the nfl.

That said, he doesnt have a true deep threat at all, be scary with a speedster to stretch the defense and open up the middle more.

Mat'hir Uth Gan
11-01-2011, 11:42 AM
let's say all 6 of those moves on paper works perfectly. you need one other thing that you can't get quickly and that's depth. the reason the Packers went to the SB and won it last year is because they had incredible depth. despite all of their injuries, they still had enough guys who were quality NFL players coming off the bench to take up the slack. unless you're really lucky in this league, you won't escape the injury bug. we of all teams should know that.

Valid point. Though, I would say our depth isn't horrible if we make our current starters the depth. Beadles, Vickerson, etc....

But I agree with you. Even if all 6 moves miraculously panned out flawlessly, we're likely still more players and development away from legitimately competing for a title.

Mat'hir Uth Gan
11-01-2011, 11:49 AM
I've watched Franklin get off the snap extremely well, keep a low base and move his feet very well.

The athleticism is there, but the consistency is not. Also having a left handed QB is going to make it more difficult because Orton could throw the ball away when he saw pressure from the right side, where as Tebow is blind sided.

And typically guys with great feet/athleticism go higher in the draft as LTs so if you want a guy with better feet/athleticism you're going to have to draft a LT and move him over to the right side.


You're higher on Franklin than I am. I've spent time watching just him and breaking down tape, and I don't see the athleticism at all. But, I'm not a coach or scout, perhaps I am missing something.

As far as taking a LT prospect and moving him to RT, that's exactly what I would do. I loved what Dallas did with Tyron Smith. And I think with the new draft rookie wage scale, it makes drafting an elite RT in the first or second round very feasible. Especially with Clady's future still a little bit up in the air.

Regardless, we'll see what happens with Franklin. I get no inclination that this regime is going to move him, so over the next few years, we'll know without a doubt if he can be a legitimate RT or not. Right now though, that 2nd Round pick is looking poorly spent.

iforgotmypassword
11-01-2011, 11:54 AM
Longevity is the key to an O-line.

The Packers didn't draft players that all became immediate impact starters. They D-E-V-E-L-O-P-E-D players.

Plus, Greek needs to go. Teach a player to stretch out his f'nig pecks, hammies, and groins wouldja?

bowtown
11-01-2011, 11:55 AM
Longevity is the key to an O-line.

The Packers didn't draft players that all became immediate impact starters. They D-E-V-E-L-O-P-E-D players.

Plus, Greek needs to go. Teach a player to stretch out his f'nig pecks, hammies, and groins wouldja?

Greek is the team doctor, he has nothing to do with how much they stretch unless they are in physical therapy.

gyldenlove
11-01-2011, 12:07 PM
I understand your point of view and it makes sense. We probably are closer to the Lions, in terms of a long rebuild, than a quick turnaround team.


If I had 6 moves to make the team competitive in one offseason, I would do the following:


1) Draft an elite QB (Luck, Barkley, Griffin, Jones) and throw him into a competition with Tebow to start.

2) Sign/draft a RT (Adcock, Adams, Wagner, Datko) and move Franklin to LG. Beadles becomes a super reserve at all O-line positions.

3) Sign/draft a 3 tech DT or two (Cox, Thompson, Reyes, Sweezy, Howard, Winn, Nowak, Lohr, Worthy, Crick, Roy)

4) Hire a new QB's coach and an up-and-coming Offensive Coordinator.

5) Draft a power RB in the mid rounds (Ballard)

6) Draft an outside CB in the mid rounds (Banks, Trufant, Poyer, Judie, Menzie, Hayward, Tandy, Robinson, Commings) -- Love the depth at CB this draft should have.

Right now I would say we have a choice to make in the 1st round, either we draft a QB to replace Tebow right away or down the line or we invest in keeping Tebow around and draft an offensive tackle to replace Franklin. The only alternative to that plan is to get a CB, which works with or without Tebow.

We can draft a defensive tackle but it will take years for him to develope and we have now seen 3 administrations come and go who have failed to make that position a priority, so I am not particularly hopeful. I think our best bet is to hope someone will be available for trade or as a free agent coming of an injury or incarceration so they will be cheap.

As for hiring a QB coach I would be all for that, but we don't need an "up and coming" OC, we need to keep Tebow in the same system he is in now, he has so many things to work on that giving him another new offense would be suicidal we will just end up with Alex Smith with poor mechanics in that case - once Tebow has worked out his mental and mechanic issues we can put him in a new offense but until then the less he has to learn the better.

Power RB sounds good, probably a round 2 or 3 back. CBs always inrease in value during the draft so the chances of getting a decent player beyond the middle of round 2 is extremely small, I still harbor hope that we can make a move for Samuel but since he has a big contract that is probably a non-starter, if this last offseason is any indication we will end up settling for a tier 2 or 3 free agent given the money we have invested in Bailey, unless we get Goodman off the books and they feel comfortable spending some of the money on a replacement.

24champ
11-01-2011, 12:09 PM
Changes for the Denver Broncos (Moving Forward)

http://broncotalk.net/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/xanders_elway_fox.jpg

Staff Changes. Replace Adam Gates @ QB Coach and if McCoy cannot muster enough production at OC it might be apt to look that direction as well.

New QBOTF. Nothing is ever a sure bet in the draft, but I think it is time to go that route. A QB cannot be successful in the NFL and have effectiveness when he is a ~ 50% passer. Tim can still serve a roll on this team and get production, but I don't want or see him as our long-term option.

Man On The Run. Our best running back is on the sidelines and reaching the age where most become ineffective. I'm a big McGahee fan, but it might be wise for the Broncos to search for the next runner of the franchise as Moreno has disappointed and Ball is simply a reserve player. I would ignore Trent Richardson this year and wait until 2013 to address this if the right options aren't there past round one.

Line Swing. At the end of the year kick Franklin inside to guard because he has absolutely no ability to handle speed rushers off the edge. Let him maul next to Clady in the running game and play to his strength. Beadles is an average right tackle and didn't look great when replacing Harris, so we must seek an upgrade at RT, though I have my doubts that Franklin will be moved. I'd also bring in a veteran to unseat JD Walton if he doesn't improve.

Receiver Additions. Eric Decker and Demaryius Thomas are likely our top two options heading into next off-season. I don't see Eddie sticking around, and I'm not going to count on Willis and Co. to be part of the team moving forward. This is a good year for free agent wide receivers and I think the Broncos should go that route to obtain a guy who can have the most impact. The 2012 draft is loaded with receivers, but I think Denver needs to evaluate other options much earlier.

Replace Elvis. Hindsight is 20/20 and it looks like the Dumervil signing was a bad one. He has gotten some hurries in the pass rush, but consistently loses his contain assignments against the run and gets flushed inside by even average OL. ~ 14 million a year for a situational player just isn't worth it. We need to find a way to change up his contract or get rid of him if we want our defensive front four to not have serious liability. Whether it is FA or the Draft, we need to add some dynamic here.

Defensive Focus. The Broncos need starter upgrades on every level of the defense. DL, CB and ILB are all areas of concern, but if the Broncos do poor the rest of the way out, they should be able to upgrade these long-term in the draft. I think there are some great ILB prospects and a good amount of zone coverage corners in this draft. If Dawkins retires, we will need to search for veteran safety options as well.

Is there anything missing?

My solution is simple, get rid of everyone.

ScottXray
11-01-2011, 12:26 PM
I think you make good points, but I think it just comes down to stubborness. EFX want to run a pocket passing offense. And Tebow is going to either succeed in that type of offense or he's going to be replaced.

I don't think they like the fan pressure or hoopla one bit. And I still don't think they want to bet their NFL careers on Tebow, whom they didn't draft. All that is understandable.

It just means that they will help him a little with some unique plays, but that they are not going to tweak their longterm offensive strategy for him. He's going to have to sink or swim as a pocket passer. And I think they've told him this. He doesn't run very often, even when he should. In interviews he keeps talking about staying in the pocket, being a pocket passer, practicing what the coaches keep trying to teach him.

This is a crash course for Tebow. He knows it and he's forcing it. EFX believe in their theory of what a successful QB is, and they've told Tebow what he has to do to play QB for them. Is it sabotage? I don't think so. I think EFX is just at the point where he will either play how they want their QB to play, or they'll go a different direction. Elway prefers Luck, no doubt, but probably every football mind on the planet does.

Anyway, I think they could gameplan and playcall much more to Tebow's strengths if they were so inclined, but they aren't. It's their way or the high way, and Tebow has control of his destiny with Denver, even if the deck is stacked. So far, not good.

After considering it all, I think you are mainly right. Despite putting Tebow in they have decided that he must become a pocket passer , and they are NOT going to change the offense to suit his talents. So it is sink or swim.
If indeed that is the main reason, then I think they really need to give him a commitment to start the rest of the year, becasue he has so many problem to work out.

The conspiracy theory somewhat fits, but if it were the main reason then McCoy would have a" job for life" as he would have the ability to sabotage the Broncos if they ever decided to let him go. That would destroy Elways credibility ( assuming he was involved ) and would be so damaging the fan base would run away from this team.


So more than likely they are just telling Tebow you have to get better.

I do think it is unfair to also say you only have 3-4 weeks to do it or get benched.

bowtown
11-01-2011, 12:30 PM
After considering it all, I think you are mainly right. Despite putting Tebow in they have decided that he must become a pocket passer , and they are NOT going to change the offense to suit his talents. So it is sink or swim.
If indeed that is the main reason, then I think they really need to give him a commitment to start the rest of the year, becasue he has so many problem to work out.

The conspiracy theory somewhat fits, but if it were the main reason then McCoy would have a" job for life" as he would have the ability to sabotage the Broncos if they ever decided to let him go. That would destroy Elways credibility ( assuming he was involved ) and would be so damaging the fan base would run away from this team.


So more than likely they are just telling Tebow you have to get better.

I do think it is unfair to also say you only have 3-4 weeks to do it or get benched.

Why is it unfair to tell a QB that is not ready that he is not ready and then make him sit until he is? Whether we have another QB worth even playing is another debate but it's not crazy to tell a rookie that he has more work to do before he can be trusted with the starting job. It happens at every other position all the time.

Taco John
11-01-2011, 12:46 PM
My solution is simple, get rid of everyone.

I think simple is a pretty good word for that solution!

Bighorn
11-01-2011, 01:04 PM
If the Colts have the first pick and take Luck Manning is gone. So why not sign Manning (if healthy) let Tebo learn for a few years cuz what he needs to learn is going to take some time, and use the draft to build the rest of the team. The team as a whole is bad not just one spot.

TheReverend
11-01-2011, 01:06 PM
If the Colts have the first pick and take Luck Manning is gone. So why not sign Manning (if healthy) let Tebo learn for a few years cuz what he needs to learn is going to take some time, and use the draft to build the rest of the team. The team as a whole is bad not just one spot.

If Manning's career isn't over, I can't see Indy making that move.

If it IS over and they make that move, the team who pays Peyton will deserve to lose that 20 million.

alkemical
11-01-2011, 01:14 PM
If Manning's career isn't over, I can't see Indy making that move.

If it IS over and they make that move, the team who pays Peyton will deserve to lose that 20 million.

So, that means the Broncos make that deal...

oof.

DarkHorse
11-01-2011, 01:16 PM
I would say that our team honestly has maybe 5 starter level worthy players on each side of the ball. That might be a kind estimate.

I'm with you on this one. Now name them


Clady
Miller
Bailey
Decker


Heck I can't think of a 5th and I may have reached on Decker but I think he's a far better player than we're able to see right now.

God, we need talent.

i4jelway7
11-01-2011, 01:41 PM
Tebow got sacked 7 times yesterday. Luck would look awful behind this offensive line, and half the forum would be talking about what a bust he looks like.

A real NFL QB doesn't get sacked 7x behind that offensive line ... Tebow gets sacked well because Tebow sucks... the D knows he can't throw it so all they have to do is blitz

I'd be ok w/ giving up 5 years of #1 draft picks or whatever is necessary to get Andrew Luck.. he is that damn good & can win games w/ inferior talent (ie denver broncos)

ScottXray
11-01-2011, 01:51 PM
Why is it unfair to tell a QB that is not ready that he is not ready and then make him sit until he is? Whether we have another QB worth even playing is another debate but it's not crazy to tell a rookie that he has more work to do before he can be trusted with the starting job. It happens at every other position all the time.

I don't think its wrong, but I get the impression that the Broncos are looking at this as the ONLY time Tebow will get. If they were looking to develope him it would not be sink or swim in this offense, or else. You try to help your QB out by giving him some things that he CAN do. There has not been enough of that, and too much of "my way or the highway" from the staff.

I think they are more about proving that he is NOT QB material than developing him for the future.

It's my bet they will trade him for whatever they can get after the season if they bench him soon. And only if they don't get any offers will they keep him.

bendog
11-01-2011, 02:13 PM
I think simple is a pretty good word for that solution!

Too late. McDaniels is gone and Yezhov is long dead.

bowtown
11-01-2011, 02:40 PM
I don't think its wrong, but I get the impression that the Broncos are looking at this as the ONLY time Tebow will get. If they were looking to develope him it would not be sink or swim in this offense, or else. You try to help your QB out by giving him some things that he CAN do. There has not been enough of that, and too much of "my way or the highway" from the staff.

I think they are more about proving that he is NOT QB material than developing him for the future.

It's my bet they will trade him for whatever they can get after the season if they bench him soon. And only if they don't get any offers will they keep him.

To be fair, they did want to keep him on the bench, develop him and give him time. If they really wanted to prove he sucked, they would have played him from the start, rather than using Orton. Their hand was forced by Orton and the fans.

i4jelway7
11-01-2011, 02:43 PM
smart thing to do from now is to let Tebow play 2 maybe 3 more games, then put in Quinn b/c he deserves the opportunity .. let Quinn play out the season & hope we can do something to get Luck

Requiem
11-01-2011, 04:00 PM
You've been "playing" draft genius for years and had such a woody for jaysus you were totally oblivious to him being a head case. Your credibility went into the crapper.
So pardon me all to hell if I call you on this Male Bovine Excrement.

http://tgchan.org/kusaba/questarch/src/124855159637.jpg

lonestar
11-01-2011, 04:42 PM
Why is it unfair to tell a QB that is not ready that he is not ready and then make him sit until he is? Whether we have another QB worth even playing is another debate but it's not crazy to tell a rookie that he has more work to do before he can be trusted with the starting job. It happens at every other position all the time.


Pretty simple huh. Just keep throwing in a body till
One is good. That means keep wasting picks hoping someone will "get it" day one.

Rather than adjust your game plan/playbook around to his strengths.
A few roll outs to kelp the DL guessing, some screens and quick slants to slow them down and not be predictable.

Run
Run and then ask the rookie to stay inthe pocket and get get creamed on third and long.

IIRC about 90% of this forum was screaming about Josh not adapting the play. Ok to accommodate the talent. adapt to their strength.
Now it is done a one eighty to say sink or swim.

Can anyone spell hypocrisy.

No One is asking for a complete overhaul of the playbook just call some plays already there for the kids that makes everyone's job easier. OL, RB WR qb.
No one gets the crap beat out of them.

Allow him to learn the fine parts of pocket passing over more than 10 games.

Give him the same playing field that jaysus got.

IIRC everyone was saying it took 3 years for him to learn the playbook.

Again why not have the same rules for this kid. Who by the way is one hell of a better man than jaysus was.

Mat'hir Uth Gan
11-01-2011, 07:40 PM
http://tgchan.org/kusaba/questarch/src/124855159637.jpg

LOL!

That dude really does not like you it seems. (Lonestar that is, not the wheelchair kid).

Requiem
11-01-2011, 08:58 PM
LOL!

That dude really does not like you it seems. (Lonestar that is, not the wheelchair kid).

He is JRWIZ from Broncomania. You have to remember him, right?

Regarding your previous post. I agree with your outlook on corners in this draft. The ACC and SEC have some tremendous corners who I think would excel here. The whole thing is -- who will come out? I think the wage scale is going to have a negative impact unless these prospects get first two round grades.

I'd disagree with letting Mays or Irving play in rotation as our MLB solution. I guess it is unfair to judge Irving yet, but I think Luke Kuechly or Manti Teo would be incredible additions to this squad, but their value will be far less than where we are picking. I'm not sure they are even coming out. Burfict and Hightower have been far less impressive this year than those two and I would ignore them over the aforementioned if they all declared.

Agreed with your running backs, but I would not take Richardson with our top selection this year.

:curtsey:

Tombstone RJ
11-01-2011, 10:25 PM
You are greatly underestimating the impact a top QB has on a roster. Don't believe me? Look at Indy. Basically the same roster last season is a division winning playoff team with Manning, a hopeless joke this season without him. Put a Manning or Rodgers under center for Denver with this same collection of players and you have at minimum a playoff contender. If Luck is on that level, he is absolutely worth 3 1sts.

No thanks. Look at Green Bay and the depth that team has. If Rogers goes down it sucks but that team will still win games. The same can be said for New England and Brady.

I'd love for the Broncos to get Luck but I'd pull my hair out if they trade the farm to get him. Especially with the type of offense that Fox runs. The Broncos need a big time infusion of talent on the defense, you simply can't continue to ignore the defense by giving up a boat load of picks for Luck.

If the Broncos do end up picking anywhere in the top 10 their #1 pick will have to be a QB. The good news is the 2012 draft is deeper at QB than the 2011 draft.

I guess the Broncos can trade down and hope to get a decent QB in the draft but that would mean they want more of a project type of QB. If the Broncos can get a half way decent QB in round one (Andy Dalton type of talent for example) then they need to pull the trigger.

Tombstone RJ
11-01-2011, 10:41 PM
Did something change over the last few weeks?

I mean did I miss some sort of fundamental shift in the NFL where rookies/2nd year players get judged over one or two games?

Are we talking about the same 2nd year QB that was a long term project coming out of the draft? What the hell happened to giving young players some time to develop.

Most people wanted a rebuild with young players, now when those same young players ineviteabley struggle, lets cast them aside for more new young players? WTF?

Because if that's the way you want to build a team then let me throw in my knee jerk 2 cents worth:

-Rahim Moore was benched for Carter, cleary Moore is a bust. We need to draft a safety.
-Julius Thomas/Green keep getting injured and when healthy can't beat a scrub like Fells. They're both busts.
-Larsen barely contributed last game. Clearly he's regressing. BUST and locker room cancer.
-Ball hasn't taken over from Moreno. Why? He sucks, trade him for a conditional 7th.
-Nate Irving can't even get on the field. Clearly he disaproves of Tebow and sucks. BUST. LB is a top priority in the offseason.

Add this list to the others that have already been mentioned like Franklin/Tebow/Thomas etc.

Hell, let's just torch the entire roster every few games because clearly that's enough to tell whether any young player is going to succeed in the NFL.

point taken. We get all panicky after a humiliating loss. I really, really, really want to see this team improve but I just don't know if that is going to happen with the pieces that are in place. On offense, it all starts with the QB and if Tebow simply can't make it work then you have to come up with a viable plan to bring in a QB who can win games in Fox's system. Orton sucks and Quinn is wearing street clothes so that should tell you what Fox thinks of him.

Fact is, it's on Tebow to prove to Fox that he's the QBOTF. Fox and McCoy don't appear to be doing him a lot of favors but it's on Tebow to adjust. I really, really want to see him succeed but if he simply can't run the offense then EFX has to--has to--draft a QB.

If they draft a QB in the first round then Tebow's time will probably be over (hard to say because he's such a team guy but most likely the Broncos will try to trade him to a team that wants him at QB, the Broncos are a classy organization and almost always try to do what is best for the player and his career).

fontaine
11-02-2011, 05:20 AM
You're higher on Franklin than I am. I've spent time watching just him and breaking down tape, and I don't see the athleticism at all. But, I'm not a coach or scout, perhaps I am missing something.

As far as taking a LT prospect and moving him to RT, that's exactly what I would do. I loved what Dallas did with Tyron Smith. And I think with the new draft rookie wage scale, it makes drafting an elite RT in the first or second round very feasible. Especially with Clady's future still a little bit up in the air.

Regardless, we'll see what happens with Franklin. I get no inclination that this regime is going to move him, so over the next few years, we'll know without a doubt if he can be a legitimate RT or not. Right now though, that 2nd Round pick is looking poorly spent.

I'm not saying Franklin is going to turn into an elite RT any time soon.

I just don't fall in line with the expectations that a rookie RT can all of a sudden become very good in pass protection. I expected him to struggle in the passing game and expected him to do well in run blocking. Both have happened.

If we had a viable backup that could come in and replace him then sure, let's try that but WE DON'T. We tried Clark and he was just as bad, and Beadles was moved from the right side because he was lousy there.

So right now, we're stuck with watching Franklin at RT and seeing how he develops over the course of the season. Throwing him under the bus after each bad game or praising him when he played very well in weeks 2/3/4 is too over the top.

Bronco Yoda
11-02-2011, 05:49 AM
Step 1.

Build a time machine, go back to 2008, kill Josh McDaniels, keep the offense we had in place.

Step 1-A

Build a time machine, go back to 2007, kill Bob Slowik to save shanahan from himself.

Bronco Yoda
11-02-2011, 05:51 AM
I'm against mortgaging our future for a player like Luck. We have so many holes to fill that it wouldn't matter anyway. He'd just get killed behind our line. I'd rather build the team.

iforgotmypassword
11-02-2011, 02:18 PM
Greek is the team doctor, he has nothing to do with how much they stretch unless they are in physical therapy.

...and strength and conditioning coach??? Maybe I'm wrong. If he is S&C coach he has ALOT to do with flexibility.

Tombstone RJ
11-02-2011, 03:55 PM
smart thing to do from now is to let Tebow play 2 maybe 3 more games, then put in Quinn b/c he deserves the opportunity .. let Quinn play out the season & hope we can do something to get Luck

I disagree. Tebow is the only QB on the roster with a long term contract. He has to be able to start the entire season so that the team can have an accurate look at his growth or lack of growth.

I'm wondering why Quinn is in street clothes on the sideline. If the team has any hope in him they'd dress him for the games and put Orton in street clothes. If Fox sees Orton and Quinn as interchangeable and Orton has been benched then what does this say about Quinn?

bendog
11-02-2011, 04:05 PM
I disagree. Tebow is the only QB on the roster with a long term contract. He has to be able to start the entire season so that the team can have an accurate look at his growth or lack of growth.

I'm wondering why Quinn is in street clothes on the sideline. If the team has any hope in him they'd dress him for the games and put Orton in street clothes. If Fox sees Orton and Quinn as interchangeable and Orton has been benched then what does this say about Quinn?

The only advantage I can see is IF Tebow flunks out and stops getting better, or is so bad that even with the improvement that there's no way he can be a starter without significant work as the no. 3 guy probably elsewhere, THEN see if Quinn's offseason and camp work progressed to where he at least gives a chance to win. He's making 750K. Elway most likely will draft QBOTF. Offer him a gig like Deberg had, and make an offer of 2-3 years at a million per. If he can play competently, some team will give something for him (a four) and let him work out an extension and resurrect his career.

bowtown
11-02-2011, 04:05 PM
...and strength and conditioning coach??? Maybe I'm wrong. If he is S&C coach he has ALOT to do with flexibility.

Rich Tuten is the strength and conditioning coach.

Tombstone RJ
11-02-2011, 04:47 PM
The only advantage I can see is IF Tebow flunks out and stops getting better, or is so bad that even with the improvement that there's no way he can be a starter without significant work as the no. 3 guy probably elsewhere, THEN see if Quinn's offseason and camp work progressed to where he at least gives a chance to win. He's making 750K. Elway most likely will draft QBOTF. Offer him a gig like Deberg had, and make an offer of 2-3 years at a million per. If he can play competently, some team will give something for him (a four) and let him work out an extension and resurrect his career.

point taken. There's one other way Quinn gets a chance and that is if Tebow gets hurt which is a real possibility due to him being sacked and hit all the time, and exposing himself to a big hit when he runs.

If that happens (Tebow injury) then I guess whoever dresses for that game will come in (could be Quinn, could be Orton). I'd prefer Fox to have Quinn availabe at all times if Tebow gets injured.

Why not see what Quinn brings to the table?

lonestar
11-03-2011, 02:06 AM
Someone I think Fontaine said if they draft luck and play him in a Fox scheme.

Now that is a very scary thought to dump a gazillion dollars long term on a yu that hands the ball off.

Just maybe John is looking for an excuse to fire/demote fox to DC and hire a dynamic guy for the offense.
It truly would be a monumental shame to draft a luck type and stick him with a dim wit on offense.

BroncoBuff
11-03-2011, 03:36 AM
Guys are giving up waaaay too soon on Tebow. Elway didn't look much better, same poor completion Req cited.

Req, please ... "giving up" on Dumervil? Son, that's pure lunacy. You forget how scarce elite pass rushers are. He's six games in after a year off. After a year leading the league in sacks. Like Von Miller, he led the nation in sacks in college ... these guys are priceless.

A bit early, but I agree on Franklin. Painful to watch those awkward George Foster-swivel angles he takes to compensate for slow feet. I'm surprised we rated him so highly.

We should've let Champ go ... used the money for Brandon Mebane. Rebuild means rebuild.

BroncoBuff
11-03-2011, 07:13 AM
I'm still thinking Tebow will work out, paaatience all.

So .... maybe free agents Aubrayo Franklin, Barrett Ruud and Courtland Finnegan ... and a solid draft. Hopefully Trent Richardson. THAT'S the Denver Broncos moving forward in my book :thumbs:

lonestar
11-03-2011, 08:17 AM
Madden video games and fantasy football have created a whole generation of know-it-all fans who expect that all you have to do is make a few tweaks to any team and they can go from worst to first. it doesn't work that way.


My point exactly. The morons live in a fantasy world.
They look at a few teams like DET and see wow since they got Stafird they are on track to become a contender.

They forget that they sucked for a decade while rebuilding. Same goes for Oak KC and. A few other teams.

But look where the real change is the OL and DL. Those are the real impact spots.

CHI turned around on getting jaysus they think whereas it has been the ethe holding that team in contention. If they ever get an OL then they may actually win a playoff game that is meaningful.

One QB is not going to turn them this team around. It will be the rebuilding if a gutted team that has been in decline since the super blows, since the real talent retired and had not been replaced.

The OL has been a joke inside the red zone since John, Zim, stink, sharp and TD retired. Loads of yards till they got to the RZ then Elam was counted on to keep them in games because they had no horsepower to push it in especially inside the 5-10 yard line.

At least with Josh he saw the real issue and started to address it on the OL. And last year they used yet another top pick for the OL.

Let's hope this coming year they will address the DT spot early and and often.

While Bunkley is a player he can't be on the field for all of the snaps and thomas and the rest are just backups doing the best they can. One of them on the field with Bunkleys replacement will be good enough to solidify what has been a joke of a unit for a decade or more.

bowtown
11-03-2011, 08:26 AM
My point exactly. The morons live in a fantasy world.
They look at a few teams like DET and see wow since they got Stafird they are on track to become a contender.

They forget that they sucked for a decade while rebuilding. Same goes for Oak KC and. A few other teams.

But look where the real change is the OL and DL. Those are the real impact spots.

CHI turned around on getting jaysus they think whereas it has been the ethe holding that team in contention. If they ever get an OL then they may actually win a playoff game that is meaningful.

One QB is not going to turn them this team around. It will be the rebuilding if a gutted team that has been in decline since the super blows, since the real talent retired and had not been replaced.

The OL has been a joke inside the red zone since John, Zim, stink, sharp and TD retired. Loads of yards till they got to the RZ then Elam was counted on to keep them in games because they had no horsepower to push it in especially inside the 5-10 yard line.

At least with Josh he saw the real issue and started to address it on the OL. And last year they used yet another top pick for the OL.

Let's hope this coming year they will address the DT spot early and and often.

While Bunkley is a player he can't be on the field for all of the snaps and thomas and the rest are just backups doing the best they can. One of them on the field with Bunkleys replacement will be good enough to solidify what has been a joke of a unit for a decade or more.

http://images.memegenerator.net/instances/280x280/9884620.jpg

lonestar
11-03-2011, 08:27 AM
Guys are giving up waaaay too soon on Tebow. Elway didn't look much better, same poor completion Req cited.

Req, please ... "giving up" on Dumervil? Son, that's pure lunacy. You forget how scarce elite pass rushers are. He's six games in after a year off. After a year leading the league in sacks. Like Von Miller, he led the nation in sacks in college ... these guys are priceless.

A bit early, but I agree on Franklin. Painful to watch those awkward George Foster-swivel angles he takes to compensate for slow feet. I'm surprised we rated him so highly.

We should've let Champ go ... used the money for Brandon Mebane. Rebuild means rebuild.


I generally. Agree with most of your post.
except doom is what he is a one trick pony and for the most part until the middle of the DL is fixed so they can't double him will not be a moving forcelike he was.

As for Franklin he was not brought in to pass Protect he was drafted ao they could run the ball. That is what he does.

I think everyone is confused about what this offense is intended to be.
No where has Fox been a passing team.

And would not be if they could run the ball and stop the other team from getting ahead by two TDs early in the games.

Let's kit pretend that if we get luck we are going to lead the league in passing.

He will be used just like Orton or Tebow is to haul us out of a bad 3rd and longs.

Because that is what fox does just like Dan Reeves did.

BroncoBuff
11-03-2011, 08:27 AM
John, Zim, stink, sharp and TD retired. Loads of yards till they got to the RZ then Elam was counted on to keep them in games because they had no horsepower to push it in especially inside the 5-10 yard line.

Yep. People blithely forget the 97-98 Broncos started SIX HOF-caliber guys on offense.

That, uhh ... that's not gonna happen again here for awhile.

TheReverend
11-03-2011, 08:30 AM
Yep. People blithely forget the 97-98 Broncos started SIX HOF-caliber guys on offense.

That, uhh ... that's not gonna happen again here for awhile.

Elway
Zimm
Sharpe
TD
Rod
???

Who's the sixth?

BroncoBuff
11-03-2011, 08:31 AM
I count Nalen and/or Griffith as HOF caliber, at least during that period.

Still, five? That's 70s Steelers/ 80s Niners numbers.

TheReverend
11-03-2011, 08:34 AM
Nalen?

Rohirrim
11-03-2011, 08:34 AM
Guys are giving up waaaay too soon on Tebow. Elway didn't look much better, same poor completion Req cited.

Req, please ... "giving up" on Dumervil? Son, that's pure lunacy. You forget how scarce elite pass rushers are. He's six games in after a year off. After a year leading the league in sacks. Like Von Miller, he led the nation in sacks in college ... these guys are priceless.

A bit early, but I agree on Franklin. Painful to watch those awkward George Foster-swivel angles he takes to compensate for slow feet. I'm surprised we rated him so highly.

We should've let Champ go ... used the money for Brandon Mebane. Rebuild means rebuild.

Not true at all. From Elway's first game, everybody in the NFL was talking about his arm, if nothing else. It was a ****ing cannon. Even the other players were doing the jaw drop over it.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1121123/1/index.htm

What skill has Tebow exhibited that gives us hope that he will be an NFL star QB, other than he can escape the rush and put on a pretty good run?

vonqkilla
11-03-2011, 08:38 AM
Atwater, neg rep both yall

vonqkilla
11-03-2011, 08:41 AM
The oline was better in 98/99 after zim retired and tony jones moved to lt imo. Less talented, but did more.

TheReverend
11-03-2011, 08:43 AM
Atwater, neg rep both yall

Yep. People blithely forget the 97-98 Broncos started SIX HOF-caliber guys on offense.

That, uhh ... that's not gonna happen again here for awhile.

"on offense"

vonqkilla
11-03-2011, 08:43 AM
Effin dan neil and harry swayne!

BroncoBuff
11-03-2011, 08:46 AM
Atwater, neg rep both yall

Atwater on defense.

Yeah, Rev ... Nalen. What he did to Gilbert Brown in XXXII, Brown should have quit the game and moved to a monastery in shame. I kind of count Griffith too ... hard to imagine a better FB.

TheReverend
11-03-2011, 08:53 AM
Atwater on defense.

Yeah, Rev ... Nalen. What he did to Gilbert Brown in XXXII, Brown should have quit the game and moved to a monastery in shame. I kind of count Griffith too ... hard to imagine a better FB.

Yeah I posted Nalen while you made your earlier post that the sixth was Nalen but the Mane's been super slow and in and out this morning so it came out late and posted 4x

bowtown
11-03-2011, 09:10 AM
I guess he doesn't really count as offense, but Elam is technically already in the HOF.

Requiem
11-03-2011, 09:19 AM
Guys are giving up waaaay too soon on Tebow. Elway didn't look much better, same poor completion Req cited.

Regardless if Tebow is the answer or not, Quinn and Orton's contracts expire at the end of the year. Adding another quarterback this off-season is an absolute must, whether it is a rookie or a veteran. It is going to happen. Guaranteed.

Req, please ... "giving up" on Dumervil? Son, that's pure lunacy. You forget how scarce elite pass rushers are. He's six games in after a year off. After a year leading the league in sacks. Like Von Miller, he led the nation in sacks in college ... these guys are priceless.

Dumervil has had a few good games this year with pressures, but he absolutely gets owned against the run. We will never have a sound, functioning defense capable of helping us win games when we have a 5'11 - 250 (maybe) pound DE getting pushed around against the run.

Do you feel that his ~ 14 million dollar salary over this season and the next justify what little production he actually does for the team?

I certainly do not.

A bit early, but I agree on Franklin. Painful to watch those awkward George Foster-swivel angles he takes to compensate for slow feet. I'm surprised we rated him so highly.

Franklin was going to go in that tier of tackles in the draft and has immense potential. He has done great in the run game, which is why I suggest kicking him into guard. He simply cannot handle speed rushers off the edge, which doesn't help Tim out at all. That was his biggest concern going into the draft and remains the same now. Why do you think so many people advocated moving him inside?

We should've let Champ go ... used the money for Brandon Mebane. Rebuild means rebuild.

Denver didn't need to let Champ go to get Mebane. All they had to do was offer more than what Seattle gave him, which was essentially peanuts.

Appreciate yer thoughts.

BroncoBuff
11-03-2011, 09:39 AM
Appreciate yer thoughts.

What's got into you son?

Requiem
11-03-2011, 09:44 AM
What's got into you son?

If this is based in re: Elvis, nothing.

I simply see no reason to pay a pass rush specialist who has never contributed on running downs 14 million a year.

jhns
11-03-2011, 09:48 AM
Not true at all. From Elway's first game, everybody in the NFL was talking about his arm, if nothing else. It was a ****ing cannon. Even the other players were doing the jaw drop over it.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1121123/1/index.htm

What skill has Tebow exhibited that gives us hope that he will be an NFL star QB, other than he can escape the rush and put on a pretty good run?

He has shown that he ups his play late in games. This is the "it" that everyone talks about. It is the attribute that seperates guys like Brady and Elway from the Ortons and Plummers of the world. If he can figure out how to play better in the other three quarters, he could turn into one of the best.

Rohirrim
11-03-2011, 10:01 AM
He has shown that he ups his play late in games. This is the "it" that everyone talks about. It is the attribute that seperates guys like Brady and Elway from the Ortons and Plummers of the world. If he can figure out how to plwy better in the other three quarters, he could turn into one of the best.

I didn't ask if he had inspirational qualities. I asked for a specific skill. With Elway, right out of the gate, it was obvious he had a real NFL arm, in fact, an extraordinary arm. So far, from Tebow, I've seen a QB who can't read defenses, can't manage the game, can't make his reads, has an average NFL arm, a wobbly ball with real accuracy issues, has bad footwork, and questionable decision making skills. If I had to pick a specific skill he has, it would be his ability to elude the rush and run the ball. Of course, that also leads to him taking some big hits. So, is that it, as far as the skill package goes? Sounds more like a RB than a QB.

jhns
11-03-2011, 10:06 AM
I didn't ask if he had inspirational qualities. I asked for a specific skill. With Elway, right out of the gate, it was obvious he had a real NFL arm, in fact, an extraordinary arm. So far, from Tebow, I've seen a QB who can't read defenses, can't manage the game, can't make his reads, has an average NFL arm, a wobbly ball with real accuracy issues, has bad footwork, and questionable decision making skills. If I had to pick a specific skill he has, it would be his ability to elude the rush and run the ball. Of course, that also leads to him taking some big hits. So, is that it, as far as the skill package goes? Sounds more like a RB than a QB.

He doesn't have two huge comebacks from just running. He has shown that he can be accurate. He also hasn't been making poor decisions, so not sure where you are getting that. He just needs to speed up his decision making. He also has a good arm. His release isn't good, but he can make every throw in terms of arm strength.

Being able to up your game late, when the game is close enough to win, is a very important attribute. I never wanted Orton as even a game manager, because he falls apart in these situations. If Tebow goes to a team with a good defense, that could keep games close, he would win a ton of games right now.

BroncoBuff
11-03-2011, 10:14 AM
I didn't ask if he had inspirational qualities. I asked for a specific skill. With Elway, right out of the gate, it was obvious he had a real NFL arm, in fact, an extraordinary arm. So far, from Tebow, I've seen a QB who can't read defenses, can't manage the game, can't make his reads, has an average NFL arm, a wobbly ball with real accuracy issues, has bad footwork, and questionable decision making skills. If I had to pick a specific skill he has, it would be his ability to elude the rush and run the ball. Of course, that also leads to him taking some big hits. So, is that it, as far as the skill package goes? Sounds more like a RB than a QB.

Points taken ... but please, it's way too early to give up on Tebow.

Blue all applies to Elway, though granted I can't name that magic "skill" you seem to require. I do like that he holds the ball instead of throwing picks, at this stage.

Rohirrim
11-03-2011, 10:32 AM
Points taken ... but please, it's way too early to give up on Tebow.

Blue all applies to Elway, though granted I can't name that magic "skill" you seem to require. I do like that he holds the ball instead of throwing picks, at this stage.

You know, watching Elway in all those early games, you could see he was having to struggle on occasion, but you also always saw improvement, even from game to game, and there were always flashes of greatness, like some jaw dropping pass that few in the NFL could make, or even attempt. It was just a matter of the pieces coming together, which happened pretty quickly for John. The excitement in this town was palpable. I don't remember anybody in football, or the media, ever getting down on him, giving up on him, trashing him, or saying he just didn't have the skills for the position. There were too many indications that he would succeed, and probably excel.

All around the league, you see Tebow's skills being questioned, not just on this board. He's a train wreck. Does anybody see Tebow taking this team to a SB three years from now?

jhns
11-03-2011, 10:40 AM
I am going to laugh when Tebow ends up being good. I do like that people are getting so hysterical over a QB that just had his fifth start. Especially one that is 2-3 with one of the worst teams in the league. A team that a "real QB" is 4-14 with. It will be fun to bring this all back up in a few years.

He has two huge comebacks. He almost brought us back in both SD games he has played in. He has only played in five and a half games. People still see zero potential...

bowtown
11-03-2011, 10:41 AM
Tebow has already proven to be one of the all time greats against prevent defenses. Hopefully all the teams we face in the playoffs will use that as their base.

lonestar
11-03-2011, 10:41 AM
http://images.memegenerator.net/instances/280x280/9884620.jpg

Pretty simple once you master RIF.

Now if you have some other meaningful conversation to rebutt it fine otherwise don't troll.

bowtown
11-03-2011, 10:43 AM
Pretty simple once you master RIF.

Now if you have some other meaningful conversation to rebutt it fine otherwise don't troll.

I just think it would be awesome if you would either get some kind mastery over your T9 and punctuation, or else stop posting from your phone.

jhns
11-03-2011, 10:46 AM
Tebow has already proven to be one of the all time greats against prevent defenses. Hopefully all the teams we face in the playoffs will use that as their base.

Says the guy that doesn't watch the games. You fair weather fans are a joke.

bowtown
11-03-2011, 10:46 AM
Who is available? No one cares if Brady is better. He isn't an option.

Tebow has five starts. You think he should be one of the better QBs already. You then post that others are being ridiculous. This is just stupid.

Is this where jhns finally goes off the deep end? Who you talking to, dude?

jhns
11-03-2011, 10:48 AM
Is this where jhns finally goes off the deep end? Who you talking to, dude?

It was a response to a post that was deleted. Moose realized how retarded it was.

lonestar
11-03-2011, 10:50 AM
Yep. People blithely forget the 97-98 Broncos started SIX HOF-caliber guys on offense.

That, uhh ... that's not gonna happen again here for awhile.

Get some horses up front. And maybe even have them now just need some time together to learn each others moves.

After a while the OL just melds together into a Great working unit the talent seems to be there but lacking coaching till this year.

We have some SIZE about 20-25 pounds bigger across the board compared to PRE clady guys. Better athletes, stronger and faster. Just need coaching and time to work with each other.

But we also have zero depth. So that is a must over the next draft or FA period. Whether it be moving Franklin inside and getting a stud for RT or just getting depth and letting these guys get to know each others moves. That is IMO a must.

lonestar
11-03-2011, 10:54 AM
I count Nalen and/or Griffith as HOF caliber, at least during that period.

Still, five? That's 70s Steelers/ 80s Niners numbers.


Maybe not HOF guys but still heads above what we had two years ago.

While the FB is not a real HOF position. Because it is a dying breed he was a stud and Nails well he was certainly upper tier. IIRC was top 3 or so each year in PB ballots.

redrocket
11-03-2011, 10:56 AM
oohh faaak thnx for posting

TotallyScrewed
11-03-2011, 11:27 AM
Tebow got sacked 7 times yesterday. Luck would look awful behind this offensive line, and half the forum would be talking about what a bust he looks like.

I've not read past this post from TJ, but what he's saying strikes a chord with me.

1) Luck is not the be all, end all answer for the Broncos woes. There are holes and problems everywhere...even multiple spots on the starting O-line. Say the Broncos get A. Luck, how is he going to improve or even survive to have a decade plus long career? I think we all agree that O-line, WR and RB are other areas of huge need. Our deficiencies in those areas are going to hinder or injure Luck, too.

2) Given the state of the Broncos, paying a huge price in draft choices or what few good players exist on the current squad is foolishness. The Broncos need to focus on collecting more draft choices and working free-agency (properly) rather than bundling picks and players for one guy.

If Luck was the next best player ever, he would not be enough to turn the Broncos back to an average NFL team.

Does it hit home with others that as bad as Denver is right now, they're in position to pick at the #9 position? The NFL has turned in the US economy...99% suckatude and 1% elite.

bendog
11-03-2011, 11:27 AM
elway awed us with the skill set, but he struggled picking up the system while Marino excelled in his first season. It was obvious elway could put the ball anywhere he wanted to within 70 yds of the LOS, and he could run like no qb had really run before, but there was that initial "will he get it" moment. And certainly there's a "will tebow get it" thing, but really where the analogy breaks down is ... skill set. A blind squirrel can see Tebow cannot put the ball anywhere he wants because he's inaccurate. It's not just that he's woefully weak on the mental aspect of the game from not even having to do progression reads in college, let alone more complex reads based on he and the receivers both keying on what a specific defender (like the SS) does and both qb and receivers adjusting to what route will be run AFTER the snap. THAT any rook qb has trouble with, though Tebow comes from the worst possible college offensive scheme; the freaking wishbone would be possibly better. But he never learned the physical technique necessary for speed of delivery and accuracy.

He's got the physical tools, and maybe the mental ones, but he's having to assimilate a lot.

ScottXray
11-03-2011, 11:56 AM
Tebow does have ALL the problems mentioned, but saying he can't develope the skills needed is also not true. He HAS developed, and is not looking to run first, has hung in the pocket on plays he used to take off on. Still a work in progress but he is starting to get it. Just a long way to go, and maybe he will never get all the way to where he needs to be

But to give up on him this early after only a few starts ( this year) , would be a tragedy.

I'd rather keep him in there, if for no other reason than to see if he does progress, and not put a grading scale that says he must do THIS much more by THIS date. Since he is the only QB with a contract beyond the end of the year we really have nothing to lose, and maybe it will start to come together later this year. If not we are still in position to draft a QB high.

I'd rather not mortgage the teams future to try to get Luck, unless the price is not too high. If Tebow continues to be terrible and we lose out we should be close enough to trade for that pick ....but there will be a bidding war and it could get out of hand. And some teams just will not make that trade, so we can't determine OUR position in advance.

The one thing that really worries me is Elways apparent infatuation with Luck, and the fear that he will trade away everything ( draft and players) to get him.

jhns
11-03-2011, 12:06 PM
Tebow does have ALL the problems mentioned, but saying he can't develope the skills needed is also not true. He HAS developed, and is not looking to run first, has hung in the pocket on plays he used to take off on. Still a work in progress but he is starting to get it. Just a long way to go, and maybe he will never get all the way to where he needs to be

But to give up on him this early after only a few starts ( this year) , would be a tragedy.

I'd rather keep him in there, if for no other reason than to see if he does progress, and not put a grading scale that says he must do THIS much more by THIS date. Since he is the only QB with a contract beyond the end of the year we really have nothing to lose, and maybe it will start to come together later this year. If not we are still in position to draft a QB high.

I'd rather not mortgage the teams future to try to get Luck, unless the price is not too high. If Tebow continues to be terrible and we lose out we should be close enough to trade for that pick ....but there will be a bidding war and it could get out of hand. And some teams just will not make that trade, so we can't determine OUR position in advance.

The one thing that really worries me is Elways apparent infatuation with Luck, and the fear that he will trade away everything ( draft and players) to get him.

This.

/thread

Play2win
11-03-2011, 12:15 PM
Tebow is years away.

alkemical
11-03-2011, 12:15 PM
Tebow is years away.

I thought he was a 5yr project.

Play2win
11-03-2011, 12:18 PM
I thought he was a 5yr project.

That sounds about right.

bendog
11-03-2011, 01:10 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five-Year_Plans_for_the_National_Economy_of_the_Soviet_ Union

lonestar
11-04-2011, 12:33 AM
I just think it would be awesome if you would either get some kind mastery over your T9 and punctuation, or else stop posting from your phone.

Wow the Internet police in action today.

I have a solution for you, do not read my posts if you can't handle the syntax.
I know it won't miss you.

bowtown
11-04-2011, 05:04 AM
Wow the Internet police in action today.

I have a solution for you, do not read my posts if you can't handle the syntax.
I know it won't miss you.

Just trying to help you out. Your arguments would probably be a lot more persuasive if they were even a little bit coherent and we didn't have to spend the time trying to figure out which words you meant to type.

Maybe you should just stick to cut and paste spam like all the garbage you post in the WRP forum.

bendog
11-04-2011, 08:26 AM
I would not be shocked if next years qb lineup was Quinn, incumbant, Barkely QBOF, and Tebowreclamationproject, and I doubt Gase is qb coach.

Anybody know where Bates went after Carroll fired him?

Play2win
11-04-2011, 10:18 AM
I would not be shocked if next years qb lineup was Quinn, incumbant, Barkely QBOF, and Tebowreclamationproject, and I doubt Gase is qb coach.

Anybody know where Bates went after Carroll fired him?

I wouldn't be too adversed to that situation. Much rather have Luck, but that situation would seem lightyears better than what we have now.

Just as long as we install the WCO... :D

redrocket
11-05-2011, 08:52 PM
depends how much time a person has, u cant just say how long it takes to develop

lonestar
11-06-2011, 02:06 AM
Just trying to help you out. Your arguments would probably be a lot more persuasive if they were even a little bit coherent and we didn't have to spend the time trying to figure out which words you meant to type.

Maybe you should just stick to cut and paste spam like all the garbage you post in the WRP forum.

Hey I have an idea for you. Don't try.

I won't lose any sleep over it.