PDA

View Full Version : Cutler vs. Tebow, 1st 5 NFL starts


Gort
10-31-2011, 07:50 AM
Cutler vs. Tebow, 1st 5 NFL starts using only passing stats:

Jay Cutler

start #1
23-20 LOSS to SEA
10 of 21 for 143 yards. 2 TD, 2 INT.
start #2
48-20 LOSS to SD
17 of 30 for 188 yards. 2 TD, 0 INT.
start #3
37-20 WIN over ARI
21 of 31 for 261 yards. 2 TD, 1 INT.
start #4
24-23 WIN over CIN
12 of 23 for 179 yards. 2 TD, 1 INT.
start #5
26-23 LOSS to SF (to miss the playoffs)
21 of 32 for 230 yards. 1 TD, 1 INT.


in total, through 5 starts:
2 wins, 3 losses
81 of 137 for 1001 yards. 9 TD, 5 INT.


Tim Tebow

start #1
39-23 LOSS to OAK
8 of 16 for 138 yards. 1 TD, 0 INT.
start #2
24-23 WIN over HOU
16 of 29 for 308 yards. 1 TD, 1 INT.
start #3
33-28 LOSS to SD
16 of 36 for 205 yards. 2 TD, 2 INT.
start #4
18-15 WIN over MIA
13 of 27 for 161 yards. 2 TD, 0 INT.
start #5
45-10 LOSS to DET
18 of 39 for 172 yards. 1 TD, 1 INT.


in total, through 5 starts:
2 wins, 3 losses
71 of 147 for 984 yards. 7 TD, 4 INT.

yet somehow the consensus here was that Jay was the future franchise QB and Tebow is already the worst QB bust in history. ???

Tebow is young and his coaching staff isn't doing him any favors, but his first 5 games' passing stats compare pretty well with Jay's first 5 games. i know that's not the whole story, but everyone should calm down and put down the straight razors already.

ColoradoDarin
10-31-2011, 07:58 AM
And we had immensely more talent on that 2006 team than we do now. It was a playoff team that Jay inherited while Tim has been given a 2-14 team.

TonyR
10-31-2011, 08:07 AM
I can't believe I'm defending Cutler (who I hate) over Tebow (who I like) but there really isn't any comparison. Cutler showed flashes of brilliance and you could see the ability. Tebow? Not so much. The only comparisons are that they both played QB and the Broncos fan base desperately wanted them to succeed.

Gort
10-31-2011, 08:07 AM
And we had immensely more talent on that 2006 team than we do now. It was a playoff team that Jay inherited while Tim has been given a 2-14 team.

i'm pretty shocked at how so many people here have become emotionally invested in Tebow (and the Broncos) failing. it's easily as bad as the guys who are emotionally investing in him succeeding just because of his SEC career. Orton was given a lot of chances to right the shop and he ultimately failed. he earned his benching. Quinn showed us nothing in the pre-season. now Tebow is put in the worst possible position and every mistake is taken as proof that he's the worst of all time. it's just ridiculous. we are out of the Luck sweepstakes. Luck is going to Indy. we are even out of the running for the #2 or #3 QB in next year's draft, so i don't get why everyone is so happy that Tebow isn't performing at the same level as a typical journeyman veteran QB in this league. we could start playing musical chairs at QB, but what's that going to do for us? Orton is not going to be here next year. Quinn has shown nothing to anybody in his NFL career. if they run Tebow out of town on a rail, where does that leave us for next year? signing McNabb or Delhomme because all we have is Weber on the practice squad? if you think this year is bad, that would be even worse. man, i'm shaking my head at that part of the fanbase that wants Tebow to fail miserably. they are so eager to see that failure, that they can't see the forest through the trees. this team is bad. Tebow is bad right now. the coaching staff is bad. blowing it all up now means we're going to be really bad in 2012 and 2013 and 2014 and... as well.

Gort
10-31-2011, 08:10 AM
I can't believe I'm defending Cutler (who I hate) over Tebow (who I like) but there really isn't any comparison. Cutler showed flashes of brilliance and you could see the ability. Tebow? Not so much. The only comparisons are that they both played QB and the Broncos fan base desperately wanted them to succeed.

the comparison is that after 5 NFL starts you really still didn't know what you had with either of them. if you really think Tebow is a bust after 5 games, then we fundamentally disagree. i want to see Tebow get a good 10-12 games under his belt, let the game slow down for him, and let him get some sort of chemistry with his OC and receivers before i know if he has a future or not. is that too much to ask?

McDman
10-31-2011, 08:11 AM
The difference between those two as well as with l of these comparisons is you could see the potential there with Jay and Elway, even though they started poorly. Right now it really is hard to see with Tebow outside of his intangibles.

bendog
10-31-2011, 08:11 AM
blowing it all up now means we're going to be really bad in 2012 and 2013 and 2014 and... as well.
--
blowing up WHAT? And your statistics are bs.

Gort
10-31-2011, 08:18 AM
blowing it all up now means we're going to be really bad in 2012 and 2013 and 2014 and... as well.
--
blowing up WHAT? And your statistics are bs.

the statistics are correct. look them up yourself.

2 starts for Fox and you're ready to discard Tebow and start all over again next year with the #3 or #4 QB taken in the draft? that's a recipe for a dismal 2012 and 2013 at least, and probably much longer. there is very little offensive talent on this team. draft a QB and you don't fix any of those holes in the 1st round. the state of this franchise is as bad in many years. there are very few players here to build around on either side of the ball, but sure, let's go ahead and start playing musical QBs. and when Fox is fired in a couple of years, we can ship out his 1st rounder and start all over with another 1st round QB.

Hercules Rockefeller
10-31-2011, 08:20 AM
Anyone remember that bomb Jay threw to Javon against Arizona?

Yeah, when Tim displays an arm anywhere near that we can make the comparisons.

lod01
10-31-2011, 08:22 AM
Hilarious! comparing whatever the hell that was at QB yesterday to an above average NFL QB.

TonyR
10-31-2011, 08:24 AM
...if you really think Tebow is a bust after 5 games...

Not necessarily a bust. But he's a project at best, and unfortunately there isn't a lot of patience in the NFL for first round draft pick projects. Particularly when there isn't a lot of progress and there's significant doubt about whether or not the person has the requisite skills to ever do the job.

Jay3
10-31-2011, 08:25 AM
Tebow looks worse than he is because he's on a team with no ability to hide his failures.

This team isn't parcicularly good in any phase. So it's hard to start anywhere.

Gort
10-31-2011, 08:26 AM
Hilarious! comparing whatever the hell that was at QB yesterday to an above average NFL QB.

in Cutler's 5th game, he was decidely NOT an above average NFL QB. that's my point. the critics want to compare Tebow to veteran QBs. if he can't do what they do, then he's a bust. any other young QB in this league gets a chance that lasts longer than 5 games. not Tebow though. he's the worst ever. forget about them f'ing up his mechanics. forget about the awful game plans. forget about the fact that he's not at NFL speed yet. forget about the fact that there is a dearth of talent around him. forget about the fact that he's had less than 3 weeks to practice with the 1st team under Fox. forget all of those mitigating factors. he doesn't look pretty, so he's a bust. yeah, that makes sense. Meril Hoge agrees so it must be true.

i guess i'm not drinking the haterade quite yet. i say give him a chance and a longer look.

Gort
10-31-2011, 08:30 AM
Not necessarily a bust. But he's a project at best, and unfortunately there isn't a lot of patience in the NFL for first round draft pick projects. Particularly when there isn't a lot of progress and there's significant doubt about whether or not the person has the requisite skills to ever do the job.

what's 1st round got to do with anything now?

let's say he was drafted in the 4th round. and our current crop of QBs was the exact same as it is now.

the fact that he was a 4th rounder would all of the sudden earn him some good will and a longer audition? that doesn't make any sense. he was drafted. he signed. he's on the team. whether he was the first pick or the last pick is irrelevant at this point. now it's about seeing what he can do. but it has to be fair. professors don't make students take their final exams on the first day of class. they're not ready to do well then. they get a whole semester to learn the material and ask questions before they are tested with their final exams. shouldn't the same be true for a young NFL QB? i think so. i guess i'm in the minority though.

Inkana7
10-31-2011, 08:35 AM
excusesssss

Ray Finkle
10-31-2011, 08:35 AM
Jay can spin the ball.... Tebow cannot....

Jay hit an open Walker in stride in the AZ game, Tebow did not hit an open Decker in the endzone....

TheElusiveKyleOrton
10-31-2011, 09:16 AM
Tebow looks worse than he is because he's on a team with no ability to hide his failures.

This team isn't parcicularly good in any phase. So it's hard to start anywhere.

"His failures" include "inability to complete a pass or read a defense."

Dedhed
10-31-2011, 09:20 AM
I can't believe I'm defending Cutler (who I hate) over Tebow (who I like) but there really isn't any comparison. Cutler showed flashes of brilliance and you could see the ability. Tebow? Not so much. The only comparisons are that they both played QB and the Broncos fan base desperately wanted them to succeed.

I would disagree completely that Tebow has not shown flashes of brilliance. Leading the best comeback since the merger is brilliance.

SonOfLe-loLang
10-31-2011, 09:21 AM
Jay can spin the ball.... Tebow cannot....

Jay hit an open Walker in stride in the AZ game, Tebow did not hit an open Decker in the endzone....

Tim was pretty **** yesterday but, one, that was a touchdown and two, thats as much on Deck as it is Tim.

Dedhed
10-31-2011, 09:22 AM
Jay can spin the ball.... Tebow cannot....

Jay hit an open Walker in stride in the AZ game, Tebow did not hit an open Decker in the endzone....That's the pass you choose to highlight Tebow's inaccuracy? Really?

Gort
10-31-2011, 09:22 AM
"inability to complete a pass"

71 times in 5 games this statement has been proven false.

Gort
10-31-2011, 09:23 AM
Tim was pretty **** yesterday but, one, that was a touchdown and two, thats as much on Deck as it is Tim.

it sure looked like that to me too.

Dedhed
10-31-2011, 09:25 AM
Tebow looks worse than he is because he's on a team with no ability to hide his failures.

This team isn't parcicularly good in any phase. So it's hard to start anywhere.

I think it looks worse than it is because you have an untalented team trying to make huge adjustments to a very unique player. But if it doesn't improve quickly and dramatically, it won't matter.

It's a huge investment with Tebow, and you almost have to be willing to invest 2 years to get everyone around him acclimated to the style of offense you need to run for Tebow to be successful

I'm not sure I have the appetite for that investment, and I'm pretty sure the FO doesn't.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
10-31-2011, 09:30 AM
71 times in 5 games this statement has been proven false.

Oh come now. You're familiar with hyperbole. Most of your posts include it in some form.

By the way, how many attempts has he had in those five games?

Dedhed
10-31-2011, 09:33 AM
Anyone remember that bomb Jay threw to Javon against Arizona?

Yeah, when Tim displays an arm anywhere near that we can make the comparisons.

Remember when Jay bowed out of the NFCCG and threw a million INTs?

TheReverend
10-31-2011, 09:48 AM
Tim was pretty **** yesterday but, one, that was a touchdown and two, thats as much on Deck as it is Tim.

^ That. He certainly had his issues yesterday, but that play wasn't one of them, imo.

Gort
10-31-2011, 09:49 AM
Oh come now. You're familiar with hyperbole. Most of your posts include it in some form.

By the way, how many attempts has he had in those five games?

i've told you a million times to stop exaggerating!

ok, back to statistics. 71 of 147 is 48.3% completion %. not good for sure. in Cutler's first 5 games, he was 59.1% completion %. that's barely adequate in this league.

right now, the top QBs in the league have completion percentages of 75.1% (Rodgers), 70.6% (Brees), 67.7% (Fitzpatrick), 67.6% (Brady), and 64.7% (E. Manning).

the point is that whatever future your may have projected for Cutler, his play in his first 5 games was at the level of a young, inexperienced QB. same as Tebow. the cards may be stacked against Tebow right now and there may be nothing he can really do to prove himself here, but it's simply not fair to proclaim him to be a bust already.

i know this is a day for Tebow haters to dominate this forum as they congratulate each other and pat each other on the back and whisper sweet nothings into each others' ears about how smart and prescient they all are, but i'm willing to stand up and call shenanigans when i see shenanigans.

Kaylore
10-31-2011, 09:57 AM
Anyone remember that bomb Jay threw to Javon against Arizona?

Yeah, when Tim displays an arm anywhere near that we can make the comparisons.

I remember when Cutler completed forward passes to receivers and was significantly better in game 5 than he was in game 1. Timmy can't complete a forward pass and is worse in his last two games than his first two.

bendog
10-31-2011, 10:02 AM
I remember when Cutler completed forward passes to receivers and was significantly better in game 5 than he was in game 1. Timmy can't complete a forward pass and is worse in his last two games than his first two.

The difference is simply that Cutler knew where to throw the ball, but like all rooks was late in figuring it out. Tebow doesn't know where to throw the ball. Not even close. Den isn't even making reads based upon if a corner is playing up to give the WR a chuck or back ...

bloodsunday
10-31-2011, 10:27 AM
Cutler vs. Tebow, 1st 5 NFL starts using only passing stats:

Jay Cutler

start #1
23-20 LOSS to SEA
10 of 21 for 143 yards. 2 TD, 2 INT.
start #2
48-20 LOSS to SD
17 of 30 for 188 yards. 2 TD, 0 INT.
start #3
37-20 WIN over ARI
21 of 31 for 261 yards. 2 TD, 1 INT.
start #4
24-23 WIN over CIN
12 of 23 for 179 yards. 2 TD, 1 INT.
start #5
26-23 LOSS to SF (to miss the playoffs)
21 of 32 for 230 yards. 1 TD, 1 INT.


in total, through 5 starts:
2 wins, 3 losses
81 of 137 for 1001 yards. 9 TD, 5 INT.


Tim Tebow

start #1
39-23 LOSS to OAK
8 of 16 for 138 yards. 1 TD, 0 INT.
start #2
24-23 WIN over HOU
16 of 29 for 308 yards. 1 TD, 1 INT.
start #3
33-28 LOSS to SD
16 of 36 for 205 yards. 2 TD, 2 INT.
start #4
18-15 WIN over MIA
13 of 27 for 161 yards. 2 TD, 0 INT.
start #5
45-10 LOSS to DET
18 of 39 for 172 yards. 1 TD, 1 INT.


in total, through 5 starts:
2 wins, 3 losses
71 of 147 for 984 yards. 7 TD, 4 INT.

yet somehow the consensus here was that Jay was the future franchise QB and Tebow is already the worst QB bust in history. ???

Tebow is young and his coaching staff isn't doing him any favors, but his first 5 games' passing stats compare pretty well with Jay's first 5 games. i know that's not the whole story, but everyone should calm down and put down the straight razors already.

Dude, I appreciate the attempt to cheer us up. But you know when you see it and Tebow ain't got it. Plain and simple. I don't need stats to validate what I have seen in Tebow's first 5 starts. I love the guy and I WISH like hell our coaching staff was creative enough to use him in *packages* that suited his skills. But he's not an every down NFL QB. Could he be in 5 years? I don't know. But he won't be here in 5 years, so it's not worth worrying about.

Popps
10-31-2011, 10:31 AM
Jay sucks and we can all agree on that.

Tim has a big uphill battle. We can all agree on that.

See how easy it is for us all to agree?

Peace.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
10-31-2011, 10:34 AM
i've told you a million times to stop exaggerating!

ok, back to statistics. 71 of 147 is 48.3% completion %. not good for sure. in Cutler's first 5 games, he was 59.1% completion %. that's barely adequate in this league.

right now, the top QBs in the league have completion percentages of 75.1% (Rodgers), 70.6% (Brees), 67.7% (Fitzpatrick), 67.6% (Brady), and 64.7% (E. Manning).

the point is that whatever future your may have projected for Cutler, his play in his first 5 games was at the level of a young, inexperienced QB. same as Tebow. the cards may be stacked against Tebow right now and there may be nothing he can really do to prove himself here, but it's simply not fair to proclaim him to be a bust already.

i know this is a day for Tebow haters to dominate this forum as they congratulate each other and pat each other on the back and whisper sweet nothings into each others' ears about how smart and prescient they all are, but i'm willing to stand up and call shenanigans when i see shenanigans.

Call shenanigans all you want.

I was not happy about that "performance" yesterday. That wasn't football. It wasn't quarterback play. It wasn't anything, as far as I can tell, and to say anything other than "Tim has regressed" is simply dishonest.

He looked WORLDS better last year, and as far as opposing defenses go, I think the book has been written on how to play against him. Make him play quarterback.

Not exactly a recipe for success.

errand
10-31-2011, 10:39 AM
Jay can spin the ball.... Tebow cannot....

Jay hit an open Walker in stride in the AZ game, Tebow did not hit an open Decker in the endzone....

...can you say elongated throwing motion?

A quicker more compact throwing motion and Decker scores with 5 yards to go in end zone....of course that just means we get beat 45-17 i guess....

Ray Finkle
10-31-2011, 10:43 AM
...can you say elongated throwing motion?

A quicker more compact throwing motion and Decker scores with 5 yards to go in end zone....of course that just means we get beat 45-17 i guess....

I really don't think it is much of the motion as it is 2 things:

1. Processing speed, I don't mean that Tim isn't smart, it's just the game has not slowed for him. Everything is moving 100 miles an hour.

2. Accuracy, if he drops the ball earlier, it's non-issue TD.

maher_tyler
10-31-2011, 10:56 AM
I can't believe I'm defending Cutler (who I hate) over Tebow (who I like) but there really isn't any comparison. Cutler showed flashes of brilliance and you could see the ability. Tebow? Not so much. The only comparisons are that they both played QB and the Broncos fan base desperately wanted them to succeed.

Tim has a lot of work to do. If you asked me today if I thought he was gonna make it I'd say no. The play calling needs to get better. And when a rookie RT is struggling, you put a TE over to help him out. Especially when the RT is the guy protecting his blind side. Common sense isn't so common I guess.

lod01
10-31-2011, 11:02 AM
I would disagree completely that Tebow has not shown flashes of brilliance. Leading the best comeback since the merger is brilliance.

Especially considering the fact that at the time of that comeback, the Dolphins were the overwhelming favorite to win the superbowl.

bendog
10-31-2011, 11:07 AM
I really don't think it is much of the motion as it is 2 things:

1. Processing speed, I don't mean that Tim isn't smart, it's just the game has not slowed for him. Everything is moving 100 miles an hour.

2. Accuracy, if he drops the ball earlier, it's non-issue TD.

I'm more concerned with basic qb play. If a corner gives Breese WR's more than ten yd cushions, it's an automatic one step fake into a route, step back to the LOS and Breese hits him with the ball, and the WR takes what's there. If you got guys of Deckers and D.Thomas size, and the corners play up to get a chuck, it's NOT offensive pass interference to shove the cornerback back to the inside of the field to get seperation and run an out. I'm more and more pessimistic that Tebow doesn't get this.

To be fair, orton sucked. He needs to become a financial advisor or something.

Peoples Champ
10-31-2011, 11:29 AM
ya im not saying Tebow is the best QB ever, bud definately not ready to give up on him yet.

TheDave
10-31-2011, 11:42 AM
I really don't think it is much of the motion as it is 2 things:

1. Processing speed, I don't mean that Tim isn't smart, it's just the game has not slowed for him. Everything is moving 100 miles an hour.

2. Accuracy, if he drops the ball earlier, it's non-issue TD.

IMO this is his biggest problem by a mile. Tim could easily be an intelligent thoughful human being and simply not have the processing speed to get the job done.

Sure, practice and experience will help, but I'm doubtful that his hamster wheel will ever spin quickly enough for this league.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
10-31-2011, 11:44 AM
IMO this is his biggest problem by a mile. Tim could easily be an intelligent thoughful human being and simply not have the processing speed to get the job done.

Sure, practice and experience will help, but I'm doubtful that his hamster wheel will ever spin quickly enough for this league.

I was told by an authority (jizz) that practice doesn't matter.

Mr. Elway
10-31-2011, 11:56 AM
Processing speed, I don't mean that Tim isn't smart

Actually I have wondered if that might not be part of the problem. He scored low on the Wonderlic (22) and for a guy that by all accounts studies and works hard, shouldn't he score better than that?

Tebow had a better college GPA than me but I'm pretty sure I could have beaten that 22 in elementary school.

In b4 Dan Marino.

bendog
10-31-2011, 11:56 AM
I did think he initially looked much better than he looked early in the Miami game. I just rewatched the first 60% of the first half ... before the wheels came totally off ... and Tebow was playing better than Julius Thomas, Franklin, Kuper, Knowshow and Royal.

Shotgun Willie
10-31-2011, 11:59 AM
and Tebow was playing better than Julius Thomas, Franklin, Kuper, Knowshow and Royal.

I wouldn't be surprised if a few Mane posters could do that.

bendog
10-31-2011, 12:13 PM
When he talks, he doesn't seem dumb. Aaron Brooks was too dumb to play qb. I doubt he's John Elway, let alone Charley Johnson or Drew Breese, but McNabb, Rapesburger and Cam don't strike me as Ph. D. material.

Doggcow
10-31-2011, 12:28 PM
And we had immensely more talent on that 2006 team than we do now. It was a playoff team that Jay inherited while Tim has been given a 2-14 team.

Less. We don't have Lloyd of Gaffney as weapons anymore.

Ray Finkle
10-31-2011, 12:37 PM
That's the pass you choose to highlight Tebow's inaccuracy? Really?

yes, would you prefer I use the pick 6 that was thrown 4 yards behind Decker?

TonyR
10-31-2011, 12:53 PM
Especially considering the fact that at the time of that comeback, the Dolphins were the overwhelming favorite to win the superbowl.

LOL Not to mention the fact that defense and special teams had a little bit to do with that comeback. I'm sure some people thought Tebow had the Lions right where he wanted them heading into the 4th quarter yesterday...

Inkana7
10-31-2011, 12:59 PM
When he talks, he doesn't seem dumb.

I totally disagree. Maybe it's just because he says the same thing every time he speaks, but to me Tim doesn't sound like the sharpest tool in the shed.

Not going to a real high school and then being a football player in college could have something to do with that.

bendog
10-31-2011, 01:12 PM
I totally disagree. Maybe it's just because he says the same thing every time he speaks, but to me Tim doesn't sound like the sharpest tool in the shed.

Not going to a real high school and then being a football player in college could have something to do with that.

I won't disagree. He does repeat pretty much the same line, though his comment yesterday about "not being in this situation much before," was unscripted, though the question was pretty obvious. Still he obviously isn't too stupid to not anticipate what will be asked. Aaron Brooks was that stupid. Purple Dank just didn't give a ****e. Being home schooled and than going to a jock factory school probably adds to the robot feel to his comments.

But I'm not so sure all qb's are that smart. The Mannings are smart. Breese ... off the chart. Rapesburger? Cam? But Tebow didn't learn the position in college. Is the amount he has to assimilate and assimilate to do without thinking and very fast too much for his ability to learn? That's certainly a valid question, imo.

Jekyll15Hyde
10-31-2011, 01:38 PM
Call shenanigans all you want.

I was not happy about that "performance" yesterday. That wasn't football. It wasn't quarterback play. It wasn't anything, as far as I can tell, and to say anything other than "Tim has regressed" is simply dishonest.

He looked WORLDS better last year, and as far as opposing defenses go, I think the book has been written on how to play against him. Make him play quarterback.

Not exactly a recipe for success.

I dont think he looked all that much better last year. Maybe just a little.

People just chose to selectively review his performance last year with a little irrational exuberance. The truth is he was meh against the Raiders and stunk up the entire 1st half in against Houston and Sandy Eggo. But what people chose to remember and hang their hats on was an improbably QB sneak against the Raiders, a great comeback against Houston and their worst ranked pass D (still a good accomplishment) and a SD game that was no where near what the score looked like thanks to a lucky onside kick (sound familiar).

And once again, against Miami, people chose to ignore 95% of the game when he looked terrible.

What I see here is actually a somewhat consistent performance out of Tebow and when you try to account for the quality of opponent, it makes it much more even, IMO.

Fedaykin
10-31-2011, 01:43 PM
Anyone remember that bomb Jay threw to Javon against Arizona?

Yeah, when Tim displays an arm anywhere near that we can make the comparisons.

I'd settle for a display of competence at the fundamentals: foot work, throwing motion, etc.

So far the only thing Tebow has show is determination. Unfortunately, determination does not make up for lack of fundamentals.

Fedaykin
10-31-2011, 01:45 PM
in Cutler's 5th game, he was decidely NOT an above average NFL QB.

Cutler wasn't an above average QB in his fifth start, but he also didn't completely embarrass himself and the team. Cutler looked like a promising rookie in his fifth game, not a high school scrub way in over his head.

Maximus
10-31-2011, 01:47 PM
Cutler vs. Tebow, 1st 5 NFL starts using only passing stats:

Jay Cutler

start #1
23-20 LOSS to SEA
10 of 21 for 143 yards. 2 TD, 2 INT.
start #2
48-20 LOSS to SD
17 of 30 for 188 yards. 2 TD, 0 INT.
start #3
37-20 WIN over ARI
21 of 31 for 261 yards. 2 TD, 1 INT.
start #4
24-23 WIN over CIN
12 of 23 for 179 yards. 2 TD, 1 INT.
start #5
26-23 LOSS to SF (to miss the playoffs)
21 of 32 for 230 yards. 1 TD, 1 INT.


in total, through 5 starts:
2 wins, 3 losses
81 of 137 for 1001 yards. 9 TD, 5 INT.


Tim Tebow

start #1
39-23 LOSS to OAK
8 of 16 for 138 yards. 1 TD, 0 INT.
start #2
24-23 WIN over HOU
16 of 29 for 308 yards. 1 TD, 1 INT.
start #3
33-28 LOSS to SD
16 of 36 for 205 yards. 2 TD, 2 INT.
start #4
18-15 WIN over MIA
13 of 27 for 161 yards. 2 TD, 0 INT.
start #5
45-10 LOSS to DET
18 of 39 for 172 yards. 1 TD, 1 INT.


in total, through 5 starts:
2 wins, 3 losses
71 of 147 for 984 yards. 7 TD, 4 INT.

yet somehow the consensus here was that Jay was the future franchise QB and Tebow is already the worst QB bust in history. ???

Tebow is young and his coaching staff isn't doing him any favors, but his first 5 games' passing stats compare pretty well with Jay's first 5 games. i know that's not the whole story, but everyone should calm down and put down the straight razors already.

If you want to make a fair comparison you have to compare 2 QB's it's not fair... How about Mike Alstott vs Tebow?

Br0nc0Buster
10-31-2011, 01:53 PM
omg the excuses will never end

I am all for Tim playing the rest of the year, I want us to give him plenty of time before writing him off

but call a spade a spade, Tebow is a trainwreck right now

I never questioned Jay's accuracy like I do Tebow's.

Tebow right now cannot complete passes consistently down the field, its not like a lack of experience caused him to throw behind decker on that slant or way behind him on that pick six

His accuracy is just not there right now

Gort
10-31-2011, 02:25 PM
Cutler wasn't an above average QB in his fifth start, but he also didn't completely embarrass himself and the team. Cutler looked like a promising rookie in his fifth game, not a high school scrub way in over his head.

take off the rose colored glasses. in Cutler's 9th game as a starter, he lost to Indy by a score of 38-20. he went 13 of 21 for 131 yards with 1 TD and 1 INT.

Cutler looked like a scrub in that game.

yet Tebow is already a bust after 5 starts. that's just plain crazy to me. there is only 1 thing you can say about Tebow right now and that is that he needs work as would be expected for a young QB playing in a system that he didn't get experience with in college, all the while having his footwork, throwing motion, and mind messed up by coaches and critics who have determined that he MUST change everything to have any chance to play in this league.

Gort
10-31-2011, 02:26 PM
omg the excuses will never end

I am all for Tim playing the rest of the year, I want us to give him plenty of time before writing him off

but call a spade a spade, Tebow is a trainwreck right now

I never questioned Jay's accuracy like I do Tebow's.

Tebow right now cannot complete passes consistently down the field, its not like a lack of experience caused him to throw behind decker on that slant or way behind him on that pick six

His accuracy is just not there right now

how many weeks has been practicing with the 1st string receivers? 100 weeks? 50 weeks? 20 weeks? or less than 3 weeks? here's a hint, the last one is correct.

Br0nc0Buster
10-31-2011, 02:40 PM
how many weeks has been practicing with the 1st string receivers? 100 weeks? 50 weeks? 20 weeks? or less than 3 weeks? here's a hint, the last one is correct.

omg this is getting stupid

you cannot honestly be defending his play, he looks like a guy who has never played qb before

he has been practicing for multiple weeks with these guys, there is no way he should be this off, unless of course he is just not accurate

but then again that is all we heard all camp so apparently you missed those reports

I hope he gets better, but you clearly dont know what quality qb play is if you think this is just a a young guy who is new to the league, he doesnt know what he is doing out there right now

Fedaykin
10-31-2011, 02:41 PM
take off the rose colored glasses. in Cutler's 9th game as a starter, he lost to Indy by a score of 38-20. he went 13 of 21 for 131 yards with 1 TD and 1 INT.

Cutler looked like a scrub in that game.


He had a ****ty game (several in fact), but never looked as consistently terrible in a game as Tebow has this season. He could at least make the easy passes even when he was failing miserably.


yet Tebow is already a bust after 5 starts. that's just plain crazy to me.


I think he has a chance, but it's not in the near future.


there is only 1 thing you can say about Tebow right now and that is that he needs work as would be expected for a young QB playing in a system that he didn't get experience with in college, all the while having his footwork, throwing motion, and mind messed up by coaches and critics who have determined that he MUST change everything to have any chance to play in this league.

Anyone that's every seriously competed in a sport knows that fundamental technique is critical -- moreso the higher level you compete at. Fundamental technique is what you rely on to prevent failure when working on instinct.

Look at the two fumbles in this last game. With proper technique those fumbles might not happen -- they both were made easier for the D by the way he carries/throws the ball. The first one was a ball stripped by a defender diving at him and hitting the ball at his waist. The second was a defender having that extra fraction of a second to get to him while he was trying to heave the ball and, again, having it too low.

Mountain Bronco
10-31-2011, 02:41 PM
Really look at the numbers. Less attempts by Jay = more yards, 10% higher completion percentage, more touchdowns. The numbers don't support your case.

Also factor in Tebow's fumbles. That and Tebow just doesn't "look" anything like a competent QB. 48% completion rate is god awful even for a rookie. Anything below 50% is unacceptable and really it needs to be close to 50%.

Fedaykin
10-31-2011, 02:46 PM
Really look at the numbers. Less attempts by Jay = more yards, 10% higher completion percentage, more touchdowns. The numbers don't support your case.

Also factor in Tebow's fumbles. That and Tebow just doesn't "look" anything like a competent QB. 48% completion rate is god awful even for a rookie. Anything below 50% is unacceptable and really it needs to be close to 50%.

Yep. Cutler had problems (I recall a ball he tossed up for grabs while getting sacked that was particularly cringe worthy) but in the same game he would also demonstrate an ability to function at the NFL level. He was hot/cold that way but that's better than consistent failure when there is real opposition.

Mountain Bronco
10-31-2011, 02:51 PM
I meant 60% as what it really needs to get close to.

For the record, I hope he gets a lot better and if anyone can improve it is Tim Tebow with his work ethic. I also have concerns that the offense isn't set up to represent what Tim Tebow can do, but no matter how you cut it, his performance was bad bad bad for 115 of 120 of the last minutes he has played.

Gort
10-31-2011, 02:59 PM
Really look at the numbers. Less attempts by Jay = more yards, 10% higher completion percentage, more touchdowns. The numbers don't support your case.

Also factor in Tebow's fumbles. That and Tebow just doesn't "look" anything like a competent QB. 48% completion rate is god awful even for a rookie. Anything below 50% is unacceptable and really it needs to be close to 50%.

more yards? you mean 17 more yards? SEVENTEEN. that's not an argument.

sure, Cutler had a higher completion percentage. he also played in Shanny's system with better receivers and better blocking. Tebow is playing right now in a neanderthal run first, run second, pass third offense. the TD to INT ratio is the same between the two after 5 games. and Cutler was (and is) a fumble machine at QB. (paging Mr. Hochuli). however, Tebow blows Cutler out of the water as a runner. it's only when he is instructed to NOT run by Fox/McCoy and to stay in the pocket that he starts taking sacks.

but i guess after 5 games, Tebow is supposed to have 4 championships already, huh? the attacks against Tebow based on expectations after 5 games are absurd. he's not a veteran pocket passer, but he's being judged by that standard. any objective judgement of Tebow's play would include tha fact that he doesn't look good as a pocket passer at this point. we all know that. but he has no chemistry with the 1st string because until 2 weeks ago, he wasn't getting any practice time with them. but let's just forget that and declare Tebow a bust, huh? he looks bad, so he must be bad and completely unfixable.

i'm not saying that Tebow is the QBOTF. i am saying that anyone jumping to the conclusion that he is a bust at this point has an ulterior motive to do so.

Gort
10-31-2011, 03:01 PM
I meant 60% as what it really needs to get close to.

For the record, I hope he gets a lot better and if anyone can improve it is Tim Tebow with his work ethic. I also have concerns that the offense isn't set up to represent what Tim Tebow can do, but no matter how you cut it, his performance was bad bad bad for 115 of 120 of the last minutes he has played.

i do agree with this. i just think Tebow is being the good soldier and trying to do what Fox/McCoy want him to do, which is to be Kyle Orton. that's a recipe for failure. even Kyle Orton sucked in this offense.

Atwater His Ass
10-31-2011, 03:41 PM
People just need to separate themselves emotionally. It's 5 games, and only 2 games with a new staff which there was almost zero pre-season time to prepare with them.

Tebow is a project and that will require time, without emotionally charged rants (either positive or negative) from week to week.

I don't see the problem with the team investing the rest of this season in Tebow and giving him an honest chance to prove himself. Denver isn't going anywhere this year anyway, so why not see what Tebow can do. If he fails, we move on, but at least we'll know.

WolfpackGuy
10-31-2011, 03:45 PM
If Teboz EVER throws a bomb like Cutler did to Walker in that Arizona game, then come talk to me.

People need to quit getting hung up on the numbers and should really look at what's happening on the field.

Jekyll15Hyde
10-31-2011, 03:49 PM
If Teboz EVER throws a bomb like Cutler did to Walker in that Arizona game, then come talk to me.

People need to quit getting hung up on the numbers and should really look at what's happening on the field.

You wouldn't by chance be directing this at jhizz?

Jason in LA
10-31-2011, 04:15 PM
Jay Cutler


in total, through 5 starts:
2 wins, 3 losses
81 of 137 for 1001 yards. 9 TD, 5 INT.


Tim Tebow



in total, through 5 starts:
2 wins, 3 losses
71 of 147 for 984 yards. 7 TD, 4 INT.

yet somehow the consensus here was that Jay was the future franchise QB and Tebow is already the worst QB bust in history. ???

Tebow is young and his coaching staff isn't doing him any favors, but his first 5 games' passing stats compare pretty well with Jay's first 5 games. i know that's not the whole story, but everyone should calm down and put down the straight razors already.

This is just silly. Cuter completed 59% of his passes while Tebow only 48%. In four of Tebow's five starts he completed 50% or less of his passes. Not good at all.

WolfpackGuy
10-31-2011, 04:22 PM
You wouldn't by chance be directing this at jhizz?

No, just a general comment.

elsid13
10-31-2011, 04:24 PM
i've told you a million times to stop exaggerating!

ok, back to statistics. 71 of 147 is 48.3% completion %. not good for sure. in Cutler's first 5 games, he was 59.1% completion %. that's barely adequate in this league.


anything in 60% range is the acceptable in the NFL. All the top QB last season range from 63% to 67%. So Cutler as rookie at 59.1 is more then acceptable completion percentage.

gunns
10-31-2011, 04:31 PM
the comparison is that after 5 NFL starts you really still didn't know what you had with either of them. if you really think Tebow is a bust after 5 games, then we fundamentally disagree. i want to see Tebow get a good 10-12 games under his belt, let the game slow down for him, and let him get some sort of chemistry with his OC and receivers before i know if he has a future or not. is that too much to ask?

I don't have a problem with this and I do see him starting for the rest of this season. BUT, stats NEVER tell the whole story. Two QB's come immediately to my mind as playing as badly as Tebow did the last two weeks and that's Ryan Leaf and Scott Mitchell. I don't care what his stats say, he looked awful.

And the bigger problem is we do not have time to go past this season in trying to mold him into a QB unless we want multiple years of being a bad team. We need to know by the end of this season what we have and if he doesn't have it, we need a QB. I'd love the guy to stay on the team in another position. I think he would be great. But I do not see him as our QB of the future. No, I am not worried in the least that he'll become great for some other team.

orangenblue
10-31-2011, 04:45 PM
Tebow isn't even in the same class of QB as Cutler. I don't care what records your looking at. Watch Cutler, then watch Tebow. It's a complete waste of time comparing them. Cutler is a top 15 NFL starting QB.

TailgateNut
10-31-2011, 05:31 PM
Tebow looks worse than he is because he's on a team with no ability to hide his failures.

This team isn't parcicularly good in any phase. So it's hard to start anywhere.



:spit:

Tombstone RJ
10-31-2011, 05:46 PM
Cutler vs. Tebow, 1st 5 NFL starts using only passing stats:

Jay Cutler

start #1
23-20 LOSS to SEA
10 of 21 for 143 yards. 2 TD, 2 INT.
start #2
48-20 LOSS to SD
17 of 30 for 188 yards. 2 TD, 0 INT.
start #3
37-20 WIN over ARI
21 of 31 for 261 yards. 2 TD, 1 INT.
start #4
24-23 WIN over CIN
12 of 23 for 179 yards. 2 TD, 1 INT.
start #5
26-23 LOSS to SF (to miss the playoffs)
21 of 32 for 230 yards. 1 TD, 1 INT.


in total, through 5 starts:
2 wins, 3 losses
81 of 137 for 1001 yards. 9 TD, 5 INT.


Tim Tebow

start #1
39-23 LOSS to OAK
8 of 16 for 138 yards. 1 TD, 0 INT.
start #2
24-23 WIN over HOU
16 of 29 for 308 yards. 1 TD, 1 INT.
start #3
33-28 LOSS to SD
16 of 36 for 205 yards. 2 TD, 2 INT.
start #4
18-15 WIN over MIA
13 of 27 for 161 yards. 2 TD, 0 INT.
start #5
45-10 LOSS to DET
18 of 39 for 172 yards. 1 TD, 1 INT.


in total, through 5 starts:
2 wins, 3 losses
71 of 147 for 984 yards. 7 TD, 4 INT.

yet somehow the consensus here was that Jay was the future franchise QB and Tebow is already the worst QB bust in history. ???

Tebow is young and his coaching staff isn't doing him any favors, but his first 5 games' passing stats compare pretty well with Jay's first 5 games. i know that's not the whole story, but everyone should calm down and put down the straight razors already.

Very interesting. I think this mainly proves that Cutler sucks. But that's just me :wiggle:

gunns
10-31-2011, 05:54 PM
i do agree with this. i just think Tebow is being the good soldier and trying to do what Fox/McCoy want him to do, which is to be Kyle Orton. that's a recipe for failure. even Kyle Orton sucked in this offense.

Now you are starting to rationalize.

KevinJames
10-31-2011, 06:53 PM
before garbage time Tebow had like 50 yards passing in the 4th quarter this past sunday.....

barryr
10-31-2011, 07:47 PM
Cutler would not be doing any better than Orton or Tebow in this crap offense. Ranked in the 20's just like last year with the same OC.