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RhymesayersDU
10-25-2011, 08:09 PM
http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/7147740/tim-tebow-converter-passes?view=print

Tim Tebow, Converter of the Passes
What can a sloppily thrown 15-yard out pattern tell us about God and country?
By Brian Phillips
POSTED OCTOBER 25, 2011

Here's how I think it works, this Tebow madness.

Somewhere within all our reptilian hearts lurks an instinct for trial-by-combat. This instinct tells us that when a person is strongly associated with an idea, we can use that person's success or failure within the sphere of competitive athletics as a legitimate indication of the quality of the idea. Did the green knight kill the blue knight? Then the queen must be innocent!

Tim Tebow has, for various reasons and despite the presence of many other religious athletes in the NFL, become the avatar or champion of evangelical Christianity in football.
In doing so, he has managed to take on outsize significance in the league despite largely failing to excel on the field and despite the fact that the NFL already reads culturally like the result of a right-wing blogger shotgunning a wine cooler and deciding to "make things fabulous."

We all know that this is ludicrous, but we all kind of feel it anyway.

As a result, it's basically impossible not to see Tebow's ability or inability to complete a 15-yard out pattern to Matt Willis as a referendum on the Book of Deuteronomy.

I'm not a churchgoer, personally. But even for me, Sunday's Miami-Denver game was a harrowing existential ride. For about three quarters, Tebow floundered, and it looked like the Living Water Bible Church out on Route 17 was wrong about pretty much everything. (Just as I suspected!) Then he rallied the Broncos for a heroic comeback and, d'oh, it seemed like there might be a god in the universe after all. And people called the win "overhyped"!

It's not as though, pre-Tebow, the NFL was lacking religiosity. I'm pretty sure Reggie White was actually a character in the Bible. And every sideline reporter has lived through this scenario ó

SIDELINE REPORTER: What defensive adjustments did you make after the half that let you stop the run so effectively in the third quarter?
MIDDLE LINEBACKER: I thank Jesus Christ my personal Lord and Savior thine be the glory baby [kisses finger twice, points up at sky]

ó so many times that they must all be terrified it'll start to happen in their regular, non-football lives:

SIDELINE REPORTER [at the UPS Store]: Does the 12-box jumbo pack come with bubble wrap?
UPS STORE CLERK: Hey, I just wanna give a shout-out to the Prince of Peace, Jehovah, my shepherd, everything I am is how He made me and all I do is for His name.

But Tebow's religiosity is different. For one thing, the public narrative of the Christian athlete normally involves a grown-up conversion experience: Deion Sanders on the Damascene Road. Tebow, by contrast, has been coming at the world with his own personal Good News since college, when he was still dewy from youth group. The son of missionaries, he always seemed religious in a way that, say, Kurt Warner didn't.

The evangelical movement spends a lot of money and time coaching its kids on how to confront secular culture, but the kids don't usually reach a position at which they can confront it on a national-media scale ó not as kids, anyway. But then here was Tebow, the quarterback at Florida, this articulate, successful young guy who was prepared to test all those techniques before a mass audience. He was calm. He was patient. He was totally committed, with the Bible verses on his eyeblack and his self-confessed virginity, but you never got the feeling he was judging you.

Instead, he was just respectfully taking in your mistakes and waiting to help you make a better call. At 20, he was America's camp counselor at a camp half the country never meant to attend.

Tebow self-consciously presented himself as a defender of the faith, filming anti-abortion commercials, flying around the world to help with his parents' missions. A lot of athletes have been religious advocates or preachers over the years, but they've generally acknowledged some token separation between their private faith and their public lives, even if the line often blurs. Reggie White appeared in ads opposing homosexuality, but not until after he retired. Tebow, on the other hand, gets press for circumcising Filipino babies. A trillion words have been written about this already, but suffice it to say that if you see him as the avatar of muscular Christianity in football, you know that in his bland, smiling, placidly self-confident way, he sees himself that way, too.

I'm sure there are people who manage to escape the demographic rooting pattern this creates. But in broad strokes, it's fair to say that how you feel about Tebow depends on how you feel about youth groups and Elisabeth Hasselbeck and, I don't know, WWJD bracelets and raft retreats with a lot of bonfires and swaying. Other religious players are religious individuals; Tebow is a whole culture. It helps that, as an NFL player, he's both nontraditional and kind of bad, which makes it easy to see his success as guided by a higher power ó if a dude with that background and that throwing motion completes a touchdown pass, it almost has to be a miracle.

Whenever I catch one of Tebow's games, I tend to lose sight of the scoreboard and just focus on the metacompetition, the weird Joan of Arc drama that seems to go along with everything he does. I imagine a bar under a train station somewhere where the relevant ideas men gather to learn their fates. Did a receiver drop a pass? James Dobson just choked on a nacho. Did Tim throw an interception? Daniel Dennett just chest-bumped Richard Dawkins. Again, I realize that this is stupid, that it's beyond stupid, but compared to actually watching the Broncos? It'll do.

I find myself half-consciously rooting for Tebow to fail, even though I have nothing against him, have lots of religious friends, am not especially tribal by nature, and wouldn't want to be responsible for the nacho-related deaths of any prominent evangelical leaders, even if I detest their politics. Doesn't matter. The part of me that wants to eat pork and not stone people just switches on and cheers for the blitzing linebacker.

There's a problem with this, though, a problem that I'm convinced lies at the heart of the minor cultural puzzle that Tebow represents. The problem is that if you're rooting against Tebow because he's religious, you're giving way to the trial-by-combat impulse. And the whole idea of the trial by combat is that there's a higher power adjudicating the combat. It means something for the blue knight to kill the green knight only if God is moving the swords. So what I, many secular football fans, and Imaginary Daniel Dennett are really rooting for is for God to make Tim Tebow fail as a means of discrediting Himself, God, in accordance with our wishes, and against His, God's, own interests.

This ó arguably ó doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

For the sake of argument, let's say that the universe is radically meaningless. If that's the case, then when Tebow wins, it's a fluke that doesn't prove anything. When he loses, it's also a fluke that doesn't prove anything. For his losing to mean anything, it has to tie into some larger cosmic order, and if it does, then it can't prove that there isn't one. Since no one really knows whether the universe is meaningless or not, things rapidly grow confusing. Tebow scoring a two-point conversion on an off-tackle power play could prove that Jesus rose from the dead on the third day, or it could, well, not. Tebow's getting picked off after telegraphing a pass could doom us to a state of terrifying metaphysical uncertainty, especially if we are the Broncos' quarterbacks coach.5 But if you're against Tebow, you can't read too much into Tebow's failures, or else Tebow has already won.

From a theological standpoint, it's so hard to say what you're actually rooting for and how it aligns with specific on-field outcomes that it almost seems to make more sense not to bring religion or politics or philosophy into the NFL, or maybe any sport, at all. But then what the hell have we been watching?

Brian Phillips is a staff writer for Grantland. You can find him on Twitter at @runofplay.

Dagmar
10-25-2011, 08:16 PM
http://gallery.nekito.net/albums/album05/Anya_Popcorn.thumb.gif

GreeleyGrizzley
10-25-2011, 08:27 PM
A very interesting read... pass the popcorn.

OBF1
10-25-2011, 08:32 PM
I on the other hand want my 5 minutes back

razorwire77
10-25-2011, 08:36 PM
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-0d1DmPlgHCw/TfkPymBIwcI/AAAAAAAAIjc/T7CwRz2N_bA/s400/homer-eating-popcorn-small-c78.jpg

RhymesayersDU
10-25-2011, 08:38 PM
I on the other hand want my 5 minutes back

Read faster?

SoCalBronco
10-25-2011, 08:56 PM
GB2.

:tebow:

Simple Jake
10-25-2011, 09:05 PM
Read faster?

^

SoCalBronco
10-25-2011, 09:14 PM
"Did Tim throw an interception? Daniel Dennett just chest-bumped Richard Dawkins. Again, I realize that this is stupid, that it's beyond stupid, but compared to actually watching the Broncos? It'll do"

Nice work, old man.

That One Guy
10-25-2011, 09:20 PM
TL; DR

Kaylore
10-25-2011, 09:38 PM
I on the other hand want my 5 minutes back

This.

epicSocialism4tw
10-25-2011, 09:53 PM
Horrible.

The snarky religious angle is already overdone and has entered cheesyville. You'd think that Bill Simmons would hire people who write interesting pieces.

JoRo
10-25-2011, 09:54 PM
For many Bronco fans this is simply garbage. That said I think he may have caught some of the national feel to number 15

epicSocialism4tw
10-25-2011, 10:04 PM
Here are some of the cheesy religious allusions that I was referring to:

As a result, it's basically impossible not to see Tebow's ability or inability to complete a 15-yard out pattern to Matt Willis as a referendum on the Book of Deuteronomy.

Sunday's Miami-Denver game was a harrowing existential ride.

it looked like the Living Water Bible Church out on Route 17 was wrong about pretty much everything. (Just as I suspected!) Then he rallied the Broncos for a heroic comeback and, d'oh, it seemed like there might be a god in the universe after all.

I'm pretty sure Reggie White was actually a character in the Bible

At 20, he was America's camp counselor at a camp half the country never meant to attend.

suffice it to say that if you see him as the avatar of muscular Christianity in football, you know that in his bland, smiling, placidly self-confident way, he sees himself that way, too.

Whenever I catch one of Tebow's games, I tend to lose sight of the scoreboard and just focus on the metacompetition, the weird Joan of Arc drama that seems to go along with everything he does. I imagine a bar under a train station somewhere where the relevant ideas men gather to learn their fates. Did a receiver drop a pass? James Dobson just choked on a nacho. Did Tim throw an interception? Daniel Dennett just chest-bumped Richard Dawkins. Again, I realize that this is stupid, that it's beyond stupid, but compared to actually watching the Broncos? It'll do.

Shananahan
10-25-2011, 10:07 PM
The URL alone told me everything I probably need to know about that article.

That One Guy
10-25-2011, 10:09 PM
At 20, he was America's camp counselor at a camp half the country never meant to attend.

That one at least made me chuckle.

Why am I back in this thread?

epicSocialism4tw
10-25-2011, 10:10 PM
The URL alone told me everything I probably need to know about that article.

A dude trying to hack through an amateur philosophical and sociological case made out of pro football. Bleh.

"Oh, thanks Brian Phillips for enlightening us as to what your opinions are on secular and religious cultures and the way that you root against Tebow because you identify with secular culture!!!! You are so smart!"

Bleh.

Maybe he should get in touch with TailgateNut or any of the other bigots here and find out what its like when inevitability tramples you underfoot.

mkporter
10-25-2011, 10:25 PM
Entertaining article. I don't at all feel that way towards Tebow, but I do occasionally find myself attaching meaning to events that really don't have any, and then thinking, WTF? I imagine it's fairly spot on for a lot of people with regards to Timmy (less so for Bronco fans).

FISH
10-25-2011, 10:29 PM
I on the other hand want my 5 minutes back

This....bunch of psycho babble bs

broncocalijohn
10-25-2011, 10:32 PM
It had a body of work that was filling and used the English Language in many ways. Oh and by the way, I didnt read it.

Boobs McGee
10-25-2011, 10:56 PM
Pretty well written article IMO. Whether or not it's off base, it provides some interesting food for thought when you really try and dissect the polarizing nature of the situation. I still can't figure out the extremes (both negative AND positive) in regards to Timmy, but this actually sounds like one of the better and more thought out explanations I've heard.

Thanks for posting.

BowlenBall
10-26-2011, 12:04 AM
Excellent article, IMO.

As an die-hard atheist and Denver Broncos fan, it's all very confusing for me. I like Tebow personally (seems like a very nice kid) and hope he is extremely succesful as our quarterback. On the other hand, the fan base that he brought with him annoys the **** out of me.

Rolandftw
10-26-2011, 12:20 AM
On the other hand, the fan base that he brought with him annoys the **** out of me.

^ This.

I would hope that Florida never has a winning season ever again, but that would probably make Gator fans worship Tebow even more. And hate our team for making him fail or something stupid.

Rolandftw
10-26-2011, 12:22 AM
I thought the article was funny. Didn't see it as any more secular then pretty much every American. Or Christmas.

OBF1
10-26-2011, 12:25 AM
^ This.

I would hope that Florida never has a winning season ever again, but that would probably make Gator fans worship Tebow even more. And hate our team for making him fail or something stupid.

Now you sound the fool... Florida has and will continue to have winning seasons. I am a Gator fan, have been for a long time. Tim Tebow is the Bronco QB....and until he pulls an orton and never wins a game, I will continue to cheer for our QB.

Cito Pelon
10-26-2011, 12:28 AM
No reference to the money-changers at the Temple? I'm disappointed.

ol#7
10-26-2011, 12:36 AM
Bill Simmons sucks. Everything going on in sports and he still cries about the NBA lockout. Plus his wife who knows nothing about the NFL spanks him at making picks. Grantland is even worse, as its made up of a bunch of wannabee Bill Simmons'es.

Jay3
10-26-2011, 01:16 AM
I think that guy reveals more about what's going on in his own heart than the pulse of America.

Some people just refuse to accept that there's a whole a dimension to Tebow that's got nothing to do with religion. Because it's on their own mind (hoping for Tebow to fail because he's a Christian), they start projecting that his popularity must mean that's what his fans are all about.

If not for his play, the attention would be 1/10th as much. Philip Rivers, Kellen Moore, Kurt Warner, Colt McCoy -- Tebow is not unique in his Christian faith.

He is unique in the way he plays the game.

Jay3
10-26-2011, 01:21 AM
Here's one example of flawed reasoning I see over and over. "Well, Tim is different because he made the Superbowl Ad, and outward profession of his faith that was beyond what anyone has done."

Think about that . . . . . Tim Tebow was in a Super Bowl ad as a collegiate! The unique part was that he was that popular on all those marketing studies. There are a lot of people who would do that ad -- but not a lot of people that they would spend the money for a Super Bowl ad to appear in.

The unique part is the popularity first. People should stop trying to shoe-horn him into some sort of "Christian only" shoebox. To the extent it's relevant, it's because people recognize and are fascinated he seems to live by a code and be very driven. Some love the code itself (Christianity), some love the idea of having integrity and sticking to what you believe (whatever it is), some are indifferent to that, and some actively disdain it and wish him to fail. It's too complicated for tidy analysis in the NFL, because it's only relevant to the extent he's a good football player.

epicSocialism4tw
10-26-2011, 01:42 AM
Philip Rivers, Kellen Moore, Kurt Warner, Colt McCoy -- Tebow is not unique in his Christian faith.

Drew Brees, Donovan McNabb, Sam Bradford, Patrick Willis, Brian Dawkins, Troy Polamalu, Devin Hester, Ray Lewis, Tony Dungy, Mike Vick (had a conversion experience in prison and councels with Dungy), Anquan Boldin, Derrick Mason, Jason Witten, Michael Oher, Aaron Kampman, Aaron Smith, Tommie Harris, Al Harris, Adam Vinatieri, Mushin Muhammad, LaDanian Tomlinson, Richard Seymour, Jon Kitna, the infamous Foneco, Dallas Clark, Matt Hasselbeck, Donald Driver, Jeff Saturday, Amobi Okoye...

...this is just a small sample of the guys who are serious about their faith and share it openly both in the locker room and in public.

Tebow has a star quality that makes him stand out for some reason.

Agamemnon
10-26-2011, 02:08 AM
This article causes brain damage...

ColoradoDarin
10-26-2011, 05:07 AM
Is this a serious article? Kurt Warner wasn't "in your face" about his faith?? Every other word from Brian Dawkins' mouth is Jesus.

I remember after the Rams won the Superbowl, Mike Tirico asked Kurt Warner something like "First things first Kurt, how about that game-winning touchdown pass to Isaac Bruce?" and Kurt responded, "First things first, I've got to thank my Lord and Savior up above. Thank you Jesus!"

And how do you turn a commercial that says nothing of abortion and it's only message was "Thanks for giving me life, Mom, I love you" into an "anti-abortion" ad?

May God bless you Brian Phillips.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
10-26-2011, 06:35 AM
A dude trying to hack through an amateur philosophical and sociological case made out of pro football. Bleh.

"Oh, thanks Brian Phillips for enlightening us as to what your opinions are on secular and religious cultures and the way that you root against Tebow because you identify with secular culture!!!! You are so smart!"

Bleh.

Maybe he should get in touch with TailgateNut or any of the other bigots here and find out what its like when inevitability tramples you underfoot.

you calling anyone a bigot is 4 da lulz.

sinuous sausage
10-26-2011, 07:04 AM
Excellent article, IMO.

As an die-hard atheist and Denver Broncos fan, it's all very confusing for me. I like Tebow personally (seems like a very nice kid) and hope he is extremely succesful as our quarterback. On the other hand, the fan base that he brought with him annoys the **** out of me.

Now that's just silly: if you're an atheist, why are you die-hard anything? Nothing matters.

In respect to the article, it seems a long-winded way to say that Tebow is new to the NFL, that he's been cast as a pantomime underdog villain by most of the football hierarchy, and that America has a penchant for rooting on pantomime underdog villains. Just look at Barack Obama.

I detected a lot of projection in that snippet.

55CrushEm
10-26-2011, 07:07 AM
This article causes brain damage...

Yup. Another article written by an atheist that in said article, admits he wants Tebow to fail.

Shocker.

Mile High Mojoe
10-26-2011, 07:59 AM
This post clearly points out why there are so many on this board and nationwide that have an intense hatred of Tebow. It has less to do about his skills as a football player and more to do with what he believes in.

The non-believers and left wing Moonbats have no trouble kneeing down on the altar of Obama, the chosen one, as the survivor all mankind. But canít stand the idea that a QB of NFL team who is an unapologetic Christian who isnít trying to shove his show on anyone else is the worst of all evils. Believing in something greater than ourselves today qualifies you as some sort of simpleton, uneducated idiot or an unenlightened rube.

Such is the sad state we live in today where people who have misplaced and totally misguided ideas about who and what is important to be concerned about. I could care less if Tebow is a Christian, Jewish, Polish or even a Martian if he can help my team win football games then he has my support. At one time most Americans felt the same way and didnít have a harden opinion about someone who had a religious belief.

Not today, people from all over the country want Tebow to be an epic failure and even people who claim to be hardcore Broncos Fans. I just wonder how many fans would support him if he were a confirmed beer bong atheist who supported pot legalization, National Socialism, abortion or gay marriage? If he did Iíd bet in Boulder and in some parts of the City of Denver he would probably be more popular than Obama, Al Gore or Lady Gaga combined.

Kaylore
10-26-2011, 08:05 AM
Pretty sure Obama goes to church.

sinuous sausage
10-26-2011, 08:33 AM
To be fair, atheism makes a buttload of sense. Caring about whether or not anyone else knows you are an atheist, or whether anyone else is, doesn't. Most well-read (key) atheists I know are just brutally honest and driven by reason. There's unfortunately a lot of atheists who are reactionary and simplistic rubes who base their view of the universe's workings as it applies to them: they refuse to believe a god who loves them could ever take away their father, sister, iguana, etc., or allow moral outrage A, B, C, du jour. That's wonk to me. Think about why.

But, speaking from a strictly rational standpoint, and conferring with the hard sciences, a lot of what was once explained by miracle or divine intervention really seems to be naturalistic causes unwittingly obfuscated by superstition. I'm left kinda wondering why the rational is rational, though. It sometimes seems like reality itself is divine, and that maybe God himself is the reason we use to acquire the evidence disfavoring his existence.


I'm an agnostic who's sympathetic to religion, and when I see Tim Tebow I see a guy who's been lambasted for his weaknesses in gross disproportion to the product he's put on the field, especially when compared to his peers. I think Tebow supporters are more his supporters due to his being an underdog on the NFL scene and his remarkable and fierce tenacity on the gridiron. I think his detractors are the status quo, the men in dimly lit halls who believe their appraisal of a QB's skills are what makes or breaks him. They're uncomfortable with Tesus, as they should be. He has the potential to destroy their ivory tower. To extinguish the uprising, they'll do most anything to deplete his troops, even if that means separating his religious supporters from his irreligious supporters.

Mile High Mojoe
10-26-2011, 08:34 AM
Sure he goes to church who can forget this.

http://youtu.be/9hPR5jnjtLo

Dedhed
10-26-2011, 08:40 AM
The snarky religious angle is already overdone and has entered cheesyville.

I agree that the snarky religious angle and "savior" allusions are overdone and irritating. However, I don't think this was either snarky or allusive. I thought it was refreshing to see a writer discuss the issue directly.

DBruleU
10-26-2011, 08:43 AM
Excellent article, IMO.

As an die-hard atheist and Denver Broncos fan, it's all very confusing for me. I like Tebow personally (seems like a very nice kid) and hope he is extremely succesful as our quarterback. On the other hand, the fan base that he brought with him annoys the **** out of me.

What exactly is a die hard atheist? Do you wake up in the morning and shake your fist towards the sky and say, "I do not believe you exist!"

Kaylore
10-26-2011, 08:59 AM
To be fair, atheism makes a buttload of sense. Caring about whether or not anyone else knows you are an atheist, or whether anyone else is, doesn't. Most well-read (key) atheists I know are just brutally honest and driven by reason. There's unfortunately a lot of atheists who are reactionary and simplistic rubes who base their view of the universe's workings as it applies to them: they refuse to believe a god who loves them could ever take away their father, sister, iguana, etc., or allow moral outrage A, B, C, du jour. That's wonk to me. Think about why.

But, speaking from a strictly rational standpoint, and conferring with the hard sciences, a lot of what was once explained by miracle or divine intervention really seems to be naturalistic causes unwittingly obfuscated by superstition. I'm left kinda wondering why the rational is rational, though. It sometimes seems like reality itself is divine, and that maybe God himself is the reason we use to acquire the evidence disfavoring his existence.


I'm an agnostic who's sympathetic to religion, and when I see Tim Tebow I see a guy who's been lambasted for his weaknesses in gross disproportion to the product he's put on the field, especially when compared to his peers. I think Tebow supporters are more his supporters due to his being an underdog on the NFL scene and his remarkable and fierce tenacity on the gridiron. I think his detractors are the status quo, the men in dimly lit halls who believe their appraisal of a QB's skills are what makes or breaks him. They're uncomfortable with Tesus, as they should be. He has the potential to destroy their ivory tower. To extinguish the uprising, they'll do most anything to deplete his troops, even if that means separating his religious supporters from his irreligious supporters.

That's a good post. My problem, and this article flirts with this a bit, is that there are a group of self-described "atheists" who are really just religion/God haters and root against someone like Tebow to get back at God, a god they don't claim to believe in. Their atheism is born of resentment and anger and not of logic or reason. I meet a lot of self-described atheists and while they all claim science as the reason they aren't religious, further inquiry usually reveals it comes down to "I just don't want some preacher telling me what to do" or some such similar complaint about lifestyle change, and their atheism has little to do with science at all and more to do with them not wanting to change or even explore the existential possibilities of their existence for fear of having to change.

In fact science is the new religion. The point of the scientific method is to test results over and over again over several variables until some form of consensus is reached, and until then admitting you do not know. Yet how many people pick a newspaper, read the headline "Scientists find study that shows (insert finding)" and then adopt is as a fact. No research into the study, the findings, the quality of the research itself is ever done. You just slap a nebulous noun like "experts," "scientists," or even the uber-vague "many" and the general public takes it as gospel.

It is a disappointing irony that the elements the atheist movement has tried to create; reason, need for hard evidence and logic, and a moving away from blindly accepting information based on who gave the information in favor of the looking at the information itself, have all just shifted where the blind acceptance is transposed to scientists.

55CrushEm
10-26-2011, 09:15 AM
To be fair, atheism makes a buttload of sense. Caring about whether or not anyone else knows you are an atheist, or whether anyone else is, doesn't. Most well-read (key) atheists I know are just brutally honest and driven by reason. There's unfortunately a lot of atheists who are reactionary and simplistic rubes who base their view of the universe's workings as it applies to them: they refuse to believe a god who loves them could ever take away their father, sister, iguana, etc., or allow moral outrage A, B, C, du jour. That's wonk to me. Think about why.

But, speaking from a strictly rational standpoint, and conferring with the hard sciences, a lot of what was once explained by miracle or divine intervention really seems to be naturalistic causes unwittingly obfuscated by superstition. I'm left kinda wondering why the rational is rational, though. It sometimes seems like reality itself is divine, and that maybe God himself is the reason we use to acquire the evidence disfavoring his existence.


I'm an agnostic who's sympathetic to religion, and when I see Tim Tebow I see a guy who's been lambasted for his weaknesses in gross disproportion to the product he's put on the field, especially when compared to his peers. I think Tebow supporters are more his supporters due to his being an underdog on the NFL scene and his remarkable and fierce tenacity on the gridiron. I think his detractors are the status quo, the men in dimly lit halls who believe their appraisal of a QB's skills are what makes or breaks him. They're uncomfortable with Tesus, as they should be. He has the potential to destroy their ivory tower. To extinguish the uprising, they'll do most anything to deplete his troops, even if that means separating his religious supporters from his irreligious supporters.

Really good post. I, too, am an agnostic. I would add a bit saying that I (and I think many others) support Tebow because he's a truly fine person. He's very religious....however, he doesn't "shove it in your face"....but he's certainly not ashamed of it, either. As you said, I feel sympathy for Tim and others for their religious beliefs, because those people too often get trashed. As the woman in the FoxSports article said (I posted it the other day).....Christians are one of the last few groups for whom it's still "cool" to trash on.

Of course I want Tebow to succeed because he's a Bronco.....but he's more than that. I view him as the underdog. He's constantly picked apart because he doesn't look like Peyton Manning after 4 starts. Also, the guy has work ethic like nobody else. If he can't become a great starting QB in the NFL.....then he's gonna kill himself trying. THAT is admirable. THAT is something I enjoy rooting for. And don't anyone try to say that none of that other stuff matters....of course it does. Would I root for guys like Maurice Clarett if they were on the Broncos?.....yes. Would I care AS MUCH about their personal success as guys similar to Tebow? Probably not. I respect that guy that works hard, despite being told that he's a **** player. Tebow wants to prove people wrong.

I hope he does.

Inkana7
10-26-2011, 09:47 AM
Drew Brees, Donovan McNabb, Sam Bradford, Patrick Willis, Brian Dawkins, Troy Polamalu, Devin Hester, Ray Lewis, Tony Dungy, Mike Vick (had a conversion experience in prison and councels with Dungy), Anquan Boldin, Derrick Mason, Jason Witten, Michael Oher, Aaron Kampman, Aaron Smith, Tommie Harris, Al Harris, Adam Vinatieri, Mushin Muhammad, LaDanian Tomlinson, Richard Seymour, Jon Kitna, the infamous Foneco, Dallas Clark, Matt Hasselbeck, Donald Driver, Jeff Saturday, Amobi Okoye...

...this is just a small sample of the guys who are serious about their faith and share it openly both in the locker room and in public.

Tebow has a star quality that makes him stand out for some reason.

He also appeared in a pro-life ad, something none of those guys have done.

EDIT: The fact that you have a list of dozens of Christian NFL players is creepy as ****.

Inkana7
10-26-2011, 09:51 AM
And how do you turn a commercial that says nothing of abortion and it's only message was "Thanks for giving me life, Mom, I love you" into an "anti-abortion" ad?


Are you trying to be serious here or just trolling?

bowtown
10-26-2011, 09:58 AM
He also appeared in a pro-life ad, something none of those guys have done.

EDIT: The fact that you have a list of dozens of Christian NFL players is creepy as ****.

He has a shelf full of models he's made of each of them up on a cross.

vonqkilla
10-26-2011, 10:00 AM
He was brainwashed, look at his parents.

Is he a great person? +
Is he a good player? +

Im agnostic, but don't care about his faith. If you are misinformed and ignorant enough to get your world view because TT or anybody else said so, well thats on you.

Decide for yourself, and let your kids do the same with all evidence provided.

War Broncos and War TT!

broncocalijohn
10-26-2011, 10:20 AM
What exactly is a die hard atheist? Do you wake up in the morning and shake your fist towards the sky and say, "I do not believe you exist!"

Yes and he also gives the finger to churches he passes and punches out the Knights of Columbus when they are giving out tootsie rolls when someone drops money in the bucket.

el chalupacabra
10-26-2011, 11:01 AM
I really wish threads like this went in the WPR forum.

I'm a militant atheist who loves football and just wants my team to win. I couldn't care less about a players faith and I bet most Tebow haters out there really don't either. I think it has more to do with his FOTF involvement.

Archer81
10-26-2011, 11:04 AM
I really wish threads like this went in the WPR forum.

I'm a militant atheist who loves football and just wants my team to win. I couldn't care less about a players faith and I bet most Tebow haters out there really don't either. I think it has more to do with his FOTF involvement.


The two bolded are contradictory. He is involved with FOTF because of his faith...so you do have a problem with his faith.

Militant atheism...thats a silly ass term, too. Like militant homosexual or militant jelly bean. Silly.

:Broncos:

TheReverend
10-26-2011, 11:23 AM
He has a shelf full of models he's made of each of them up on a cross.

...Made out of cupcake wrappers, popsicle sticks and held together with the grease found under the folds of his man boobs.

TheReverend
10-26-2011, 11:23 AM
The two bolded are contradictory. He is involved with FOTF because of his faith...so you do have a problem with his faith.

Militant atheism...thats a silly ass term, too. Like militant homosexual or militant jelly bean. Silly.

:Broncos:

Militant jelly bean sounds delicious, imo.

AlphaSeirra
10-26-2011, 11:25 AM
Gross Stereotyping -- "the fan base that he brought with him"

Sorry, but YOU don't KNOW that ENTIRE fan base, just the very few that you've been exposed to, probably on a message board.
The others are probably the ones that the media morons 'have chosen' for you to see.

Kind of like claiming that ALL Bronco fans (certainly total more than 100,000) are morons, instead of just the ones that show it
by their own actions.
=========

"I would hope that Florida never has a winning season ever again,
but that would probably make Gator fans worship Tebow even more.
And hate our team for making him fail or something stupid."

UF's last losing season, even playing in the SEC, was way back in 1979, 33 years ago.
(some of the more ignorant claim that UF was nothing before Spurrier became the HBC in 1990)
UF hasn't been shut-out in 300+ games, going back to the 1980's.

Heisman Danny Wonderful was well liked and respected (and still is), even though he never got to start with even a pretty good NFL team.
I know a lot of Gator fans, but I know none that ever worshipped Danny.
Same goes for Tim.

I'm mostly a Gator fan, but I have followed NFL teams in the past, and especially the ones with Gator players.
1st Pro Team was Colts/Unitas/Berry (before I was a Gator fan)
2nd Pro Team was Phins/Grease/Warfield/Csonka/Morris/Kick
3rd Pro Team was Broncos Elway/Three-Amigos/Orange Crush
And then a long time of not paying much attention to the NFL (family/work), except for the occasional game with a Gator player.
Disliked the Cowboys, but always liked and respected E.Smith.
Bored with the Jags, but always liked and respected F.Taylor.
Too many Gators in the Pros now days to keep up with them all.
* Hating on the Broncos (or any other Pro team) is to time consuming to bother with imoho.

Many Gator fans are at best, neutral about, or only mildly religious.
However:
S.Spurrier 1966 Heisman QB & the son of a preacher man.
D.Wuerffel 1996 Heisman QB, SEC-C, mNC & the son of a preacher man.
T.Tebow 2007 Heisman QB, 2x SEC-C, 2x BCS-NC & the son of a preacher man.
But I don't know of a single Christian conversion that came about from the above being true.

The media morons pump many things, including religion, but the average fan is a lot more interested in the game.
What some outside group, religious or otherwise chooses to ride on, is of no real concern to me.
I'm just interested in football, and hoping that Tim and the other Gator Pro's do well.

PS

Gator fans don't live & die with how Tebow, or any other Gator for that matter, does in Pro football.
I also didn't jump off any bridges just because Danny Wonderful had a mediocre NFL career and chose to retire, with an offer
still on the table, after 6 seasons.

However, the media morons make a lot of hay by running all over Tim, Gator fans, religion, and anything else that can draw
attention to themselves. Don't fall for it. (or __it)
===========

"I think Tebow supporters are more his supporters due to his being an underdog on the NFL scene and his remarkable and
fierce tenacity on the gridiron."

^ This. --- Plus the Gator Nation fans will always try to support a favorite son in the NFL.

PS

And I certainly DO NOT represent ALL Gator fans,,,, just myself.
Hating and dissing on us/me individually is just fine.... :wave:

ColoradoDarin
10-26-2011, 11:27 AM
Are you trying to be serious here or just trolling?

Serious. Take a look for yourself:

<object width="560" height="315"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/xqReTDJSdhE?version=3&amp;hl=en_US&amp;rel=0"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/xqReTDJSdhE?version=3&amp;hl=en_US&amp;rel=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="560" height="315" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true"></embed></object>

el chalupacabra
10-26-2011, 11:30 AM
I mean, sure his involvement with FOTF is related to his faith but probably 95% of the NFL would identify as Christian. How many of them work with groups that have an agenda trying to legislate what women can and can't do with their bodies or telling two consenting adults who they can and can't marry?

So no, those statements aren't contradictory. I do not care what relationship individuals have with "God" until it infringes on the choices other's make in their own lives.

Again, this thread should really be in WPR. There's a reason I never go in there. I want to read about football and talk Broncos.

el chalupacabra
10-26-2011, 11:31 AM
Militant jelly bean sounds delicious, imo.

Couldn't agree more.

TheReverend
10-26-2011, 11:38 AM
Serious. Take a look for yourself:

<object width="560" height="315"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/xqReTDJSdhE?version=3&amp;hl=en_US&amp;rel=0"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/xqReTDJSdhE?version=3&amp;hl=en_US&amp;rel=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="560" height="315" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true"></embed></object>

Definitely.

With all the hype leading up to it, I was prepared for something stomach-turning and instead got something not even remotely in your face or really even pro-life at all lol

Bronco Yoda
10-26-2011, 12:16 PM
...But Tebow IS a spiritual experience for many a Broncomaniac, regardless of any brand of religious dogma.

He's became the promised game-savior risen from the parking lot that was known as 'Mile High'. A zombie baller bursting through the pavement into this cruel orange crush-less world.... A world where the Broncos have lost their way.

He's the promised gunslinger that is to return... his 'delivery' might not be recognized by a doubting Thomas.... but the miracles reveal his true nature.

...The resurrection of the 'one' true pigskin lord and game savior....John Elway.





too much?

TailgateNut
10-26-2011, 12:20 PM
...But Tebow IS a spiritual experience for many a Broncomaniac, regardless of any brand of religious dogma.

He's became the promised game-savior risen from the parking lot that was known as 'Mile High'. A zombie baller bursting through the pavement into this cruel orange crush-less world.... A world where the Broncos have lost their way.

He's the promised gunslinger that is to return... his 'delivery' might not be recognized by a doubting Thomas.... but the miracles reveal his true nature.

...The resurrection of the 'one' true pigskin lord and game savior....John Elway.





too much?

yep

Rolandftw
10-26-2011, 12:29 PM
Now you sound the fool... Florida has and will continue to have winning seasons. I am a Gator fan, have been for a long time. Tim Tebow is the Bronco QB....and until he pulls an orton and never wins a game, I will continue to cheer for our QB.

Uh, what? When did I say I wasn't going to cheer for Tebow? Wasn't aware what relevancy you declaring yourself a Gator fan would have.

And perhaps "winning season" wasn't the right phrase. We know they can somehow beat nonconference powerhouses like Florida Atlantic, Furman and UAB. And beating Kentucky and Tennessee is very impressive as well.

They were .500 in the SEC last year, and won't even be that this season. They're not really relevant in the SEC, other then being a middle of the pack team at best.

RhymesayersDU
10-26-2011, 01:53 PM
I mean, sure his involvement with FOTF is related to his faith but probably 95% of the NFL would identify as Christian. How many of them work with groups that have an agenda trying to legislate what women can and can't do with their bodies or telling two consenting adults who they can and can't marry?

So no, those statements aren't contradictory. I do not care what relationship individuals have with "God" until it infringes on the choices other's make in their own lives.

Again, this thread should really be in WPR. There's a reason I never go in there. I want to read about football and talk Broncos.

Yet you have replied to this thread multiple times now. You could always just hit the back button on your browser.

Like it or not, this issue (right or wrong) with Tebow isn't going away any time soon. And coincidentally, Tim Tebow is the Denver Broncos starting QB.

Agamemnon
10-26-2011, 02:08 PM
Serious. Take a look for yourself:

<object width="560" height="315"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/xqReTDJSdhE?version=3&amp;hl=en_US&amp;rel=0"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/xqReTDJSdhE?version=3&amp;hl=en_US&amp;rel=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="560" height="315" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true"></embed></object>

You find that offensive? Seriously? Was it the big "Focus on the Family" at the end? Because the actual commercial was pretty understated with it's message. I almost get the impression some people wish she had aborted Tebow the way people get all uppity over this crap...

chickennob2
10-26-2011, 02:11 PM
Now that's just silly: if you're an atheist, why are you die-hard anything? Nothing matters.


This is absurd. People are die-hard Broncos fans. Does the Broncos winning only have meaning if God exists. The existence of a higher power who reigns over all creation lends meaning to some sweaty dudes pushing each other? Really? You think that if there is a god, he's personally invested in the outcome of football games?

No, man. It's not "if you're an atheist, nothing matters." The Broncos winning has meaning because a whole lot of people are invested in it. It brings to joy to their lives. I'm a die-hard Broncos fan because the experience of watching and being deeply invested in a sports franchise is something I find valuable and enjoyable. It has meaning because I choose to attach meaning to it.

Anyways, continue your thread.

55CrushEm
10-26-2011, 02:21 PM
You find that offensive? Seriously? Was it the big "Focus on the Family" at the end? Because the actual commercial was pretty understated with it's message. I almost get the impression some people wish she had aborted Tebow the way people get all uppity over this crap...

No. I think it was Inkana that called it an "anti-abortion" ad. Darin was just rebutting saying it was very mild.

I agree. The celebrate family message was hardly an in your face anti-abortion ad.

But hey, the Christian haters are always looking for reasons to.....well, hate Christians.

bowtown
10-26-2011, 02:26 PM
Now that's just silly: if you're an atheist, why are you die-hard anything? Nothing matters.


I think you have atheism mixed up with nihilism.

bendog
10-26-2011, 02:44 PM
So a die hard christian flips off jews or muslims or athiests or something?

ColoradoDarin
10-26-2011, 02:44 PM
You find that offensive? Seriously? Was it the big "Focus on the Family" at the end? Because the actual commercial was pretty understated with it's message. I almost get the impression some people wish she had aborted Tebow the way people get all uppity over this crap...

I didn't find it offensive, I was replying to the guy who thought it was.

bendog
10-26-2011, 02:47 PM
it's an anti-abortion political ad. I don't like ANY entertainer, or relative of the intertainer, trying to sway anything political ... be it left right or middle.

Kaylore
10-26-2011, 02:58 PM
it's an anti-abortion political ad. I don't like ANY entertainer, or relative of the intertainer, trying to sway anything political ... be it left right or middle.

I don't have a problem with it. I think they're for the most part idiots, but they think they're doing the right thing and have an audience that is going to listen them. They're citizens. It's their right.

Frankly I trust some celebrities and athletes more than a lot of our elected officials from either party.

And that add is not anti-abortion. It's not anti-anything.

bendog
10-26-2011, 03:04 PM
fine, but then you gotta be cool with Baldwin and Sean Penn. Abdul Rauf wasn't actually trying to be political with the natl athem thing, and look what that got him. I'm not going to pay to see an Oliver Stone movie. I think the anti-abortion ad was over the top, but I do give Tebow credit that generally his "faith" message is not criticizing anyone else's views: he is what he is, but he's not criticizing others who believe differently.

RhymesayersDU
10-26-2011, 03:06 PM
I think you have atheism mixed up with nihilism.

We believe in nothing!

/lebowski

BroncoBeavis
10-26-2011, 03:09 PM
All but the most depraved agree that abortion is less than ideal. The TT FOTF ad isn't political for pointing out that in the long run, good things can come out of difficult situations.

Saying "Hang in There, it'll be Ok" isn't the same as trying to outlaw abortion.

That's an entirely different debate. (Not that it's not one worth having)

Kaylore
10-26-2011, 03:16 PM
fine, but then you gotta be cool with Baldwin and Sean Penn. Abdul Rauf wasn't actually trying to be political with the natl athem thing, and look what that got him. I'm not going to pay to see an Oliver Stone movie. I think the anti-abortion ad was over the top, but I do give Tebow credit that generally his "faith" message is not criticizing anyone else's views: he is what he is, but he's not criticizing others who believe differently.

Tebow's letting his actions speak for themselves. I find it funny that that makes him more hated. As a Mormon, we try not to rip on other people and follow a similar "lead by example" lifestyle and yet we encounter similar over the top resentment and general disdain. I don't claim perfection and neither does Tebow, but its interesting to me the way people resent someone who tries to live a moral life.

Compare that with these ball players that "praise Jesus" after everything but don't take things further than that. I remember Jake Plummer talking about those guys in the locker room. They would talk about Jesus and God after good games and then go cheat on their wives. Tebow has, to my knowledge, never once ripped on someone else and just lived by example. In my opinion criticism for his beliefs are completely unjustified.

As for Sean Penn, Alec Baldwin, et al. I say: Let them be heard. They do more damage then good for their causes, in my opinion. ROFL!

el chalupacabra
10-26-2011, 03:29 PM
Yet you have replied to this thread multiple times now. You could always just hit the back button on your browser.

Like it or not, this issue (right or wrong) with Tebow isn't going away any time soon. And coincidentally, Tim Tebow is the Denver Broncos starting QB.

I'm just trying to point out that people's issues with Tebow may be a little more nuanced than ''''grrr, christians bad, grrr".

That said, I hope he leads us to 11 straight wins. :strong:

Rolandftw
10-26-2011, 03:38 PM
The ad wasn't that big of a deal. It wasn't anti-abortion in nature, but it clearly links to a website that is Pro-Life. Personally, I don't think such ads should have a place during the SB... just like I wouldn't like it if they ran political ads, or a ProChoice ad during the SB. But it was the network that chose to let FocusOnTheFamily buy the ad time, anyways.

Mile High Mojoe
10-26-2011, 03:47 PM
Tebow's letting his actions speak for themselves. I find it funny that that makes him more hated. As a Mormon, we try not to rip on other people and follow a similar "lead by example" lifestyle and yet we encounter similar over the top resentment and general disdain. I don't claim perfection and neither does Tebow, but its interesting to me the way people resent someone who tries to live a moral life.

Compare that with these ball players that "praise Jesus" after everything but don't take things further than that. I remember Jake Plummer talking about those guys in the locker room. They would talk about Jesus and God after good games and then go cheat on their wives. Tebow has, to my knowledge, never once ripped on someone else and just lived by example. In my opinion criticism for his beliefs are completely unjustified.

As for Sean Penn, Alec Baldwin, et al. I say: Let them be heard. They do more damage then good for their causes, in my opinion. ROFL!

This.

razorwire77
10-26-2011, 03:58 PM
I could care less if Tim Tebow pulled a Chad Johnson and renamed himself "Abortion stops a beating heart" so it could appear on the back of his jersey. As long as he played the quarterback position at a high level and got this team back to the playoffs, he can have whatever political/social ideology he wants. Throw the ball where it should be thrown, become a quality NFL starter, elevate the play of the guys around you, and win some ****ing football games.

Inkana7
10-26-2011, 04:10 PM
I don't find that ad offensive, and I never said I did. I only said that you're a fool if you don't think it's a pro-life ad.

Mile High Mojoe
10-26-2011, 04:11 PM
TailgateNut[/B];3345780]...But Tebow IS a spiritual experience for many a Broncomaniac, regardless of any brand of religious dogma.

He's became the promised game-savior risen from the parking lot that was known as 'Mile High'. A zombie baller bursting through the pavement into this cruel orange crush-less world.... A world where the Broncos have lost their way.

He's the promised gunslinger that is to return... his 'delivery' might not be recognized by a doubting Thomas.... but the miracles reveal his true nature.

...The resurrection of the 'one' true pigskin lord and game savior....John Elway.

too much?

yep
You know 2 years when I went to Raiders Game in Denver I was told that you put on a great tailgate party and they said you were a nice guy. During that period 2 years ago I didnít see many of your posts on the OM. Maybe you had something going on in your life that kept you busy like life or work like the rest of us. I really enjoyed your party and talking to the other fans that were in attendance. You were so busy making food I never really got much of a chance to talk to you personally.

But I have to say after seeing what youíve posted this year about the Broncos and Tebow especially, youíre far from being a nice guy in fact youíre an angry, hateful and resentful guy at least on this board anyway.

Maybe you have some personal problems that are bothering you right now or youíre in a bad marriage, work pressure I donít know but every thread were Iíve seen you post is another hateful outburst directed at Tebow. Why? Did your parentís make you go to a Christian parochial school as a child or did they stuff Jesus down your throat and you didnít like it? I just donít see how a guy like you who is as hardcore about the Broncos as you can get be so incredibly angry about Tebow. What is about Tebow that you hate so much? If by some chance he ends up being a QB that can produce multiple wins this season and the Broncos end up keeping him next season are you going to root against him?

epicSocialism4tw
10-26-2011, 04:13 PM
He was brainwashed, look at his parents

He probably thinks you're brainwashed. ;)

Inkana7
10-26-2011, 04:14 PM
He probably thinks you're brainwashed. ;)

Yeah but he was the one who was home schooled, so he'd be wrong.

TailgateNut
10-26-2011, 04:14 PM
I don't have a problem with it. I think they're for the most part idiots, but they think they're doing the right thing and have an audience that is going to listen them. They're citizens. It's their right.

Frankly I trust some celebrities and athletes more than a lot of our elected officials from either party.

And that add is not anti-abortion. It's not anti-anything.


Yep, it's not ANTI-abortion, it's Pro-life. See the political connection?

Twist it as you wish, the message is/was clear. It didn't belong. Period

epicSocialism4tw
10-26-2011, 04:16 PM
He also appeared in a pro-life ad, something none of those guys have done.

EDIT: The fact that you have a list of dozens of Christian NFL players is creepy as ****.

If you want to see how many NFL players are serious about their faith, just watch them meet at the 50 yard line after the game. Its not hard to see.

In fact, it nearly works to assume that an extremely high percentage of all NFL players are either active in the Christian faith or are in some way loosely associated with it.

What's creepy is that you feel threatened by the existance of Christians. You should get used to it, because Christianity isn't going anywhere.

epicSocialism4tw
10-26-2011, 04:20 PM
Yeah but he was the one who was home schooled, so he'd be wrong.

This day and age, a home-schooled child is more prepared for college than a kid spat from the public school system.

Why does it matter to you if he was home schooled or not? This is a free country and people are free to teach their children what they wish.

Tebow was taught things that public school children never learn: selfessness, multiculturality, how to run a non-profit, how to interact with foreign governments, how to deal with the management of an orphanage, how to deal with hospital management, etc, etc.

Tebow is way further prepared for the real world than a kid coming from a generic US high school.

TailgateNut
10-26-2011, 04:21 PM
[QUOTE=TailgateNut;3345780]
You know 2 years when I went to Raiders Game in Denver I was told that you put on a great tailgate party and they said you were a nice guy. During that period 2 years ago I didnít see many of your posts on the OM. Maybe you had something going on in your life that kept you busy like life or work like the rest of us. I really enjoyed your party and talking to the other fans that were in attendance. You were so busy making food I never really got much of a chance to talk to you personally.

But I have to say after seeing what youíve posted this year about the Broncos and Tebow especially, youíre far from being a nice guy in fact youíre angry, hateful and resentful guy at least on this board anyway.

Maybe you have some personal problems that are bothering you right now or youíre in a bad marriage, work pressure I donít know but every thread were Iíve seen you post is another hateful outburst directed at Tebow. Why? Did your parentís make you go to a Christian parochial school as a child or did they stuff Jesus down your throat and you didnít like it? I just donít see how a guy like you who is as hardcore about the Broncos as you can get be so incredibly angry about Tebow. What is about Tebow that you hate so much? If by some chance he ends up being a QB that can produce multiple wins this season and the Broncos end up keeping him next season are you going to root against him?


Let's just leave it at you don't know me and those that do know why. It really isn't that complicated, and it didn't start with his religious beliefs.

Hint:I like him as much/little as I did Griese and Cutler.

epicSocialism4tw
10-26-2011, 04:24 PM
it's an anti-abortion political ad. I don't like ANY entertainer, or relative of the intertainer, trying to sway anything political ... be it left right or middle.

Dang...you must not be able to watch anything on TV then.

epicSocialism4tw
10-26-2011, 04:27 PM
Tebow's letting his actions speak for themselves. I find it funny that that makes him more hated. As a Mormon, we try not to rip on other people and follow a similar "lead by example" lifestyle and yet we encounter similar over the top resentment and general disdain.

Its your dang bikes. They're so...unamerican. ;)

epicSocialism4tw
10-26-2011, 04:28 PM
Serious. Take a look for yourself:

<object width="560" height="315"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/xqReTDJSdhE?version=3&amp;hl=en_US&amp;rel=0"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/xqReTDJSdhE?version=3&amp;hl=en_US&amp;rel=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="560" height="315" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true"></embed></object>

Man, that's as controversial as someone's mom saying "I love you" to them.

Rolandftw
10-26-2011, 04:29 PM
If you want to see how many NFL players are serious about their faith, just watch them meet at the 50 yard line after the game. Its not hard to see.

In fact, it nearly works to assume that an extremely high percentage of all NFL players are either active in the Christian faith or are in some way loosely associated with it.

What's creepy is that you feel threatened by the existance of Christians. You should get used to it, because Christianity isn't going anywhere.

I think there's a lot more Christians that are threatened by the existence of other religions, then the other way around. And at the least, many of those other religions have historical reasons to feel threatened.

Christianity will continue to change and evolve as it has the last 1000 plus years.

epicSocialism4tw
10-26-2011, 04:30 PM
Let's just leave it at you don't know me and those that do know why. It really isn't that complicated, and it didn't start with his religious beliefs.

Hint:I like him as much/little as I did Griese and Cutler.

You have had an irrational reaction to Tebow that reveals the same disdain you share for Christians.

Say what you will...I hope you like him.

TailgateNut
10-26-2011, 04:31 PM
I think there's a lot more Christians that are threatened by the existence of other religions, then the other way around. And at the least, many of those other religions have historical reasons to feel threatened.

Christianity will continue to change and evolve as it has the last 1000 plus years.


From holy to hypocrite in 1...2....3

Archer81
10-26-2011, 04:32 PM
I think there's a lot more Christians that are threatened by the existence of other religions, then the other way around. And at the least, many of those other religions have historical reasons to feel threatened.

Christianity will continue to change and evolve as it has the last 1000 plus years.


7 billion people on earth. 1/3 of the population is Christian. On numbers alone you could correctly state there are more people who are threatened by Christians then Christians who exist in the first place.


:Broncos:

Mile High Mojoe
10-26-2011, 04:32 PM
[QUOTE=Mile High Mojoe;3345999]


Let's just leave it at you don't know me and those that do know why. It really isn't that complicated, and it didn't start with his religious beliefs.

Hint:I like him as much/little as I did Griese and Cutler.

I didn't like Griese either, Cutler at least had some talent but he's attitude on the field and off did alienate Fans.

Tebow at least for now anyway hasn't acted out in anyway other than to try to help the Broncos win football games. Until he stops winning them one after the other and doesn't make an ass of himself in the locker room or in the media I support him. It's that simple for me, I didn't think it was a smart pick to get him but we have him so we must see if can or can't cut it and go from there. I can't get inside your head but I'd think you'd want to do the same no matter what you think of him.

epicSocialism4tw
10-26-2011, 04:32 PM
I think there's a lot more Christians that are threatened by the existence of other religions, then the other way around. And at the least, many of those other religions have historical reasons to feel threatened.

Christianity will continue to change and evolve as it has the last 1000 plus years.

It does undergo a constant battery of intellectual scrutiny, but the central message will never change. Its unique.

TailgateNut
10-26-2011, 04:35 PM
It does undergo a constant battery of intellectual scrutiny, but the central message will never change. Its unique.


No shiate, as is a 5 legged cat!

epicSocialism4tw
10-26-2011, 04:36 PM
7 billion people on earth. 1/3 of the population is Christian. On numbers alone you could correctly state there are more people who are threatened by Christians then Christians who exist in the first place.


:Broncos:

Just look at whats happening in Egypt after their uprising...the Coptics are getting attacked for the sole purpose of driving them out of the country or killing them off. The same thing happens in China, Turkey, Indonesia, Sudan, Nigeria, the Congo, Sierra Leone, Iran, Syria, etc, etc.

Archer81
10-26-2011, 04:36 PM
No shiate, as is a 5 legged cat!


In India it would be considered an incarnation of Ganesh.


:Broncos:

Archer81
10-26-2011, 04:37 PM
Just look at whats happening in Egypt after their uprising...the Coptics are getting attacked for the sole purpose of driving them out of the country or killing them off. The same thing happens in China, Turkey, Indonesia, Sudan, Nigeria, the Congo, Sierra Leone, Iran, Syria, etc, etc.


Sudan...formed a new country because of it. Weird topic for the main forum.


:Broncos:

epicSocialism4tw
10-26-2011, 04:39 PM
No shiate, as is a 5 legged cat!

Its even more unique than that. Its one of a kind.

There is no other religion that claims that the God of the universe took the initiative in reconciling he and man. Most religions are works-based...saying that doing "good" deeds are the path to whatever enlightenment that they offer, but Christianity says that your deeds flow from God because nobody is perfect and everyone's deeds are tainted for the most part by human qualities like greed, envy, etc.

TailgateNut
10-26-2011, 04:49 PM
oy ****ing vey

Rolandftw
10-26-2011, 04:52 PM
It does undergo a constant battery of intellectual scrutiny, but the central message will never change. Its unique.

I meant more that people see religion and God under the context of the world that they live in. For instance, the Hebrew people were a Tribal people who came to see God as desiring war and conquest which is something that few people today believe a divine being would have interest in. Even though slavery was a central part of the Bible, and something that particular--and some would argue, rather important characters would refuse to deny as an unnecessary evil, most reasonable people have.

Very few Jews today would argue that God desires these things. But people do. Likewise, Christianity is a religion that has been influenced and can influence other religions and cultures. That is the change I'm talking about.

Christianity's central message is really not that different from most religions central message. In fact, I imagine if you were to study some of the ancient religions of the world (lesser known ones I mean), I imagine you would find more things in common then you'd think.

Inkana7
10-26-2011, 05:14 PM
This day and age, a home-schooled child is more prepared for college than a kid spat from the public school system.

Why does it matter to you if he was home schooled or not? This is a free country and people are free to teach their children what they wish.

Tebow was taught things that public school children never learn: selfessness, multiculturality, how to run a non-profit, how to interact with foreign governments, how to deal with the management of an orphanage, how to deal with hospital management, etc, etc.

Tebow is way further prepared for the real world than a kid coming from a generic US high school.

I wish I could learn selfessness. My feeble public school education didn't even teach me that it was a word! Thankfully you're here.

And to think that no one but home schooled learns those things is extremely ignorant of, well, reality.

Many home schooled kids learn from intelligent design textbooks. So to say that learning fake science in lieu of real science is better preparing them is well, special. But par for the course for you, because it's dumb.

Rolandftw
10-26-2011, 05:19 PM
Its even more unique than that. Its one of a kind.

There is no other religion that claims that the God of the universe took the initiative in reconciling he and man. Most religions are works-based...saying that doing "good" deeds are the path to whatever enlightenment that they offer, but Christianity says that your deeds flow from God because nobody is perfect and everyone's deeds are tainted for the most part by human qualities like greed, envy, etc.

All of the Abrahamic religions believe that God has or will reconcile He and man. The Muslim faith believes that God sent Muhammad, the greatest of His prophets to send God's message to the world... as both the Gospels and the Torah have been corrupted by man. They also believe in Jesus, as the Messiah although they do not believe that he ever died on the cross as Christians believe and they certainly do not believe in Jesus being divine, let alone the concept of the Trinity. The Jewish faith traditionally believes that they are God's Chosen People, that the annointed one will be sent by God to repair the world, for it is broken. And that in doing so, war, suffering hunger, disease, etc will end. And the Christian people believe that the annointed one has already come, and anything left to fulfill will be fulfilled upon his return to earth.

Now if you're talking about the idea of God coming to Earth in human form, there are tons of ancient faiths that believe in the idea of a God coming and suffering for people's sins...

TheReverend
10-26-2011, 05:25 PM
I'm glad this discussion evolved.

This will both be civil and productive.

:)

Rolandftw
10-26-2011, 05:27 PM
7 billion people on earth. 1/3 of the population is Christian. On numbers alone you could correctly state there are more people who are threatened by Christians then Christians who exist in the first place.


:Broncos:

You could also say that Islam being the fastest growing religion in the world is something that makes other religious demographics threatened. Since both religions generally practice proselytism, you could argue that there will always be a strong conflict between the two.

Other, smaller religions that do not actively seek members to join probably don't particular care as long as they are free to practice their religion as they see fit. It's because this hasn't always been the case that smaller groups might see themselves threatened.

OABB
10-26-2011, 05:41 PM
I have converted to Tebowism.

Come at me world religions

Tebow 3:16.

Bronx33
10-26-2011, 05:43 PM
And this thread is going going going ( its outa here!! and it aint coming back!)

sinuous sausage
10-26-2011, 08:18 PM
I'd go on the record and allege that misunderstanding of science is the new religion. Science is skepticism towards that which is essentially and demonstrably undeniable, on the off-chance we had it wrong. It seeks to disprove, whereas most belief systems (and pseudosciences) are geared towards confirmation bias in any observations related to it. Science has limited scope, though, and it's that of the observable. God, by definition, is unobservable, so I'm not all too certain there's much to be said for scientific referendums on God's existence. The debate absconds upon observations of God's purported handiwork, and all the timeless human questions of morality, free will, reason, faith, and love come into the fold, and will continue to come into the fold until we are an extinct species or until one of these deities comes back and breaks down the game film for us. Intelligent Design strikes me as whack because I don't believe God, if he exists, would make it that elementary. Plus, there's no evidence for it. Also left wanting is a materialistic explanation of the universe: I'd be lying if I believed a conglomeration of chemicals could ever realize it's just a conglomeration of chemicals. Think about how surreal and esoteric the human mind is, then consider the hypothetical source of everything that exists and existed and ever will exist. The human mind ad infintum, I would imagine. I dunno, I don't think anyone does.

A lot of atheists don't understand the marvels of scientific process: if they did, I dunno if they would be so damn certain about everything. I mean, I sometimes hardly believe I exist. The way to recognize a fundamentalist (doesn't matter if he's fresh out of terrorist training camp or if he's a militant atheist) is his certitude about what he believes, and in my experience a lot of people believe (I know I do) things that are self-regarding and for their own ends or insecurities. Like you said, this typically comes to light the more they work themselves up into a feverish freneticism about how the world isn't what they think it should be. This observation kind of lends itself to the atheism/nihilism angle which has been brought up, as I see nihilism to be the logical end of atheistic thought. Not that there's anything wrong with that: my life often resembles that of a lazy nihilist. I don't give a f*** about not giving a f****. If there is no god then there is no objectivity, there is no morality that matters, there is no person who matters, there is nothing that matters. All my hopes, fears, and loves mean the same as a wave crashing on the shore. Up is down and reason is superstition. I'm a few thousand sunrises of water and bone, then I'm gone into the nether.


That's enough philosophical musing for this gay. I think Tebow gets a bad rap because he can usurp those pundits in power, and it's a tale as old as time for those in power to stop at nothing to stay in power. John Clayton does kind of look like Marie Antoinette...so...Vive la Rťvolution! The next 10 weeks could change the world, and all we have to do is allow the Jesus freak dude to do his thang.

OABB
10-26-2011, 11:54 PM
I'd go on the record and allege that misunderstanding of science is the new religion. Science is skepticism towards that which is essentially and demonstrably undeniable, on the off-chance we had it wrong. It seeks to disprove, whereas most belief systems (and pseudosciences) are geared towards confirmation bias in any observations related to it. Science has limited scope, though, and it's that of the observable. God, by definition, is unobservable, so I'm not all too certain there's much to be said for scientific referendums on God's existence. The debate absconds upon observations of God's purported handiwork, and all the timeless human questions of morality, free will, reason, faith, and love come into the fold, and will continue to come into the fold until we are an extinct species or until one of these deities comes back and breaks down the game film for us. Intelligent Design strikes me as whack because I don't believe God, if he exists, would make it that elementary. Plus, there's no evidence for it. Also left wanting is a materialistic explanation of the universe: I'd be lying if I believed a conglomeration of chemicals could ever realize it's just a conglomeration of chemicals. Think about how surreal and esoteric the human mind is, then consider the hypothetical source of everything that exists and existed and ever will exist. The human mind ad infintum, I would imagine. I dunno, I don't think anyone does.

A lot of atheists don't understand the marvels of scientific process: if they did, I dunno if they would be so damn certain about everything. I mean, I sometimes hardly believe I exist. The way to recognize a fundamentalist (doesn't matter if he's fresh out of terrorist training camp or if he's a militant atheist) is his certitude about what he believes, and in my experience a lot of people believe (I know I do) things that are self-regarding and for their own ends or insecurities. Like you said, this typically comes to light the more they work themselves up into a feverish freneticism about how the world isn't what they think it should be. This observation kind of lends itself to the atheism/nihilism angle which has been brought up, as I see nihilism to be the logical end of atheistic thought. Not that there's anything wrong with that: my life often resembles that of a lazy nihilist. I don't give a **** about not giving a *****. If there is no god then there is no objectivity, there is no morality that matters, there is no person who matters, there is nothing that matters. All my hopes, fears, and loves mean the same as a wave crashing on the shore. Up is down and reason is superstition. I'm a few thousand sunrises of water and bone, then I'm gone into the nether.


That's enough philosophical musing for this gay. I think Tebow gets a bad rap because he can usurp those pundits in power, and it's a tale as old as time for those in power to stop at nothing to stay in power. John Clayton does kind of look like Marie Antoinette...so...Vive la Rťvolution! The next 10 weeks could change the world, and all we have to do is allow the Jesus freak dude to do his thang.

I was an athiest under Orton.

epicSocialism4tw
10-27-2011, 12:18 AM
I wish I could learn selfessness. My feeble public school education didn't even teach me that it was a word! Thankfully you're here.

And to think that no one but home schooled learns those things is extremely ignorant of, well, reality.

Many home schooled kids learn from intelligent design textbooks. So to say that learning fake science in lieu of real science is better preparing them is well, special. But par for the course for you, because it's dumb.

Its nice that youre a wannabe expert on home schooling and all.

Thats a good look for you.

sinuous sausage
10-27-2011, 07:35 AM
I was an athiest under Orton.

I wasn't an atheist, I just thought God had forsaken us

BowlenBall
10-27-2011, 07:40 AM
Old Testament = Elway

New Testament = Tebow

Hell = Orton, Cutler, Plummer, Griese

bendog
10-27-2011, 08:00 AM
Hey, don't be callign the Duke a Jew. !!!!!!!

fdf
10-27-2011, 08:04 AM
To be fair, atheism makes a buttload of sense.

I think a good case can be made for agnosticism, virtually none for athiesm. "I don't know" is a warranted belief." "I know there is no God" is not. On the one hand, athiesm rejects faith. On the other, athiesm needs faith to get past the ambiguity of the answer.

55CrushEm
10-27-2011, 08:26 AM
I think a good case can be made for agnosticism, virtually none for athiesm. "I don't know" is a warranted belief." "I know there is no God" is not. On the one hand, athiesm rejects faith. On the other, athiesm needs faith to get past the ambiguity of the answer.

I agree. For one to say "I absolutely KNOW there is a God" is just as silly as saying "I absolutely KNOW there ISN'T a God".

I don't believe either can be proved. Heck, even the belivers in God would have to admit, to a degree, that they don't KNOW. Isn't that why it's called FAITH?? You can certainly have FAITH and want to believe (and DO believe) there is a God. But you can't PROVE it.....so you don't KNOW.

BowlenBall
10-27-2011, 08:48 AM
Hey, don't be callign the Duke a Jew. !!!!!!!

Well, he DOES have an economics degree from Stanford....

bendog
10-27-2011, 09:06 AM
sartre believed there was no god, but also said one could have a longing or desire to have belief. I think athiesm is a perfectly rational philosophy. It's absolutely more rational that the traditional Christian notion of "blood atonement" for mankind's fall, when that is taken literally, and even that is less irrational than the current ultra-zionist belief that the West Bank and parts of present day Syria belong to Israel because Jehova said so.

BowlenBall
10-27-2011, 09:28 AM
sartre believed there was no god, but also said one could have a longing or desire to have belief. I think athiesm is a perfectly rational philosophy. It's absolutely more rational that the traditional Christian notion of "blood atonement" for mankind's fall, when that is taken literally, and even that is less irrational than the current ultra-zionist belief that the West Bank and parts of present day Syria belong to Israel because Jehova said so.

Watermock? Is that you?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/bd/Tin_foil_hat_3.png

epicSocialism4tw
10-27-2011, 11:23 AM
I agree. For one to say "I absolutely KNOW there is a God" is just as silly as saying "I absolutely KNOW there ISN'T a God".

I don't believe either can be proved. Heck, even the belivers in God would have to admit, to a degree, that they don't KNOW. Isn't that why it's called FAITH?? You can certainly have FAITH and want to believe (and DO believe) there is a God. But you can't PROVE it.....so you don't KNOW.

The concept of a god can be known. At its most fundamental, one can understand and know the truth of the "immoveable mover" concept.

bendog
10-27-2011, 12:01 PM
nah, more in the camus camp myself (or monty python) though the church I belong to is more paul tillich-ish. But, that’s irrelevant. I just think the premise of the article starting the thread is wrong.

“I find myself half-consciously rooting for Tebow to fail, even though I have nothing against him, have lots of religious friends, am not especially tribal by nature, and wouldn't want to be responsible for the nacho-related deaths of any prominent evangelical leaders, even if I detest their politics. Doesn't matter. The part of me that wants to eat pork and not stone people just switches on and cheers for the blitzing linebacker.

There's a problem with this, though, a problem that I'm convinced lies at the heart of the minor cultural puzzle that Tebow represents. The problem is that if you're rooting against Tebow because he's religious, you're giving way to the trial-by-combat impulse. And the whole idea of the trial by combat is that there's a higher power adjudicating the combat. It means something for the blue knight to kill the green knight only if God is moving the swords. So what I, many secular football fans, and Imaginary Daniel Dennett are really rooting for is for God to make Tim Tebow fail as a means of discrediting Himself, God, in accordance with our wishes, and against His, God's, own interests.”

Imo, everyone should give Tebow a break on the relgious non-political stuff. His belief seems to me "believe and you're 'in,' but doing good stuff for people is just what you're supposed to do." He's not going to visit just the Christian kids at the hospital. He's not going to there to convert anyone, he's just being the person he thinks his god wants him to be.

I’ve never been absolutely certain about Tebow’s thanking God stuff after a win, but I sort of doubt Tebow actually believes God wants him, personally, to win a football game. He doesn’t seem to have that narcissism. I suspect it’s more like a baseball player touching a cross before an at bat, grateful for the opportunity and asking for help to do one’s best. It’s a bit offsetting to a lot of people when it seems like someone thinks god favors one “group” over another for no reason other than the person is in “the right group.” But Tebow never really struck me as being like that.

But I don’t think he should get a political pass. Elway learned early on to keep his political beliefs to himself.

As far as proving the existence of a god, or knowing with certainty, just to think that those can be proven repudiates Christian teaching on faith. It’s not only arrogant, it’s being arrogant about being ignorant.

epicSocialism4tw
10-27-2011, 12:06 PM
But I donít think he should get a political pass. Elway learned early on to keep his political beliefs to himself.

When Tebow becomes a fixture in public, I hope that he uses every opportunity available to use his platform.


As far as proving the existence of a god, or knowing with certainty, just to think that those can be proven repudiates Christian teaching on faith. Itís not only arrogant, itís being arrogant about being ignorant.

Thats not what the Christianity teaches. It teaches the opposite. It teaches that God can be known, and not only can God be known, but that God wants you to know more and more about God. Christianity is not an aimless mysticism.

No need to be such a jerk about your opinion. There are millions of Christians in this country and you just essentially called them all ignorant. Many of the most intelligent people in the history of the world and in our culture have been Christians.