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Popps
10-23-2011, 04:35 PM
Never mind the fact that we won the game, right? The play-calling sucked fire has started and the more people repeat it, the more other people believe it.

I'm just curious... question for all of you forum coaching experts around here: how exactly would you have game-planned for a QB that couldn't hit the side of a barn for 55 minutes of a game?

We played out of the shotgun most of the day. (His comfort zone.)

We ran him plenty.

Our running game was productive.

We designed screens, dump-passes, short sideline routes, etc.

When he DID have open receivers, he missed them by a mile.

Oh, and before you answer... let's factor in the reality that Miami was crowding the line most of the day, sending multiple blitzes at him that he clearly was not experienced enough to understand or handle.

This isn't Tebow-bashing, either. I love the kid. I have no idea if he's a real answer long-term. None of us do. But, he was terrible for 55 minutes today.
I'd love to hear why the play-calling was so bad, despite the evidence to the contrary.

Most of the time, when **** works... people assume play-calling was good. When it doesn't, they assume execution has nothing to do with it.

DrFate
10-23-2011, 04:38 PM
How many pass attempts in the first half?

RhymesayersDU
10-23-2011, 04:40 PM
Here's my only beef with the play calling:

In that last 5 minutes, we found an offensive set/plays/etc that worked for us. We moved the ball and scored. In OT, we reverted right back to the first 55 minutes of the game. Run, run, 3rd and long, punt.

I agree with much of what you said about the first 55 minutes. I don't have a problem protecting our young QB, being pretty conservative, pounding the ball. Plus Tebow wasn't making good passes as it was, like you said.

But after seeing a number of plays that were working positively, I think they should have kept that going in OT. I feel like I have an issue with a lack of in-game adjusting rather than play calling.

snowspot66
10-23-2011, 04:40 PM
How many pass attempts in the first half?

Five. Eight counting sacks. Maybe one or two more where he avoided the sack and pulled a nice run out of thin air.

Also, we had two drives in the first half where we ran it five times in a row.

barryr
10-23-2011, 04:42 PM
Never mind the fact that we won the game, right? The play-calling sucked fire has started and the more people repeat it, the more other people believe it.

I'm just curious... question for all of you forum coaching experts around here: how exactly would you have game-planned for a QB that couldn't hit the side of a barn for 55 minutes of a game?

We played out of the shotgun most of the day. (His comfort zone.)

We ran him plenty.

Our running game was productive.

We designed screens, dump-passes, short sideline routes, etc.

When he DID have open receivers, he missed them by a mile.

Oh, and before you answer... let's factor in the reality that Miami was crowding the line most of the day, sending multiple blitzes at him that he clearly was not experienced enough to understand or handle.

This isn't Tebow-bashing, either. I love the kid. I have no idea if he's a real answer long-term. None of us do. But, he was terrible for 55 minutes today.
I'd love to hear why the play-calling was so bad, despite the evidence to the contrary.

Most of the time, when **** works... people assume play-calling was good. When it doesn't, they assume execution has nothing to do with it.

Missed open receivers? Just how many more than any other QB?

Any slant patterns by receivers? Seemed to me more pass patterns designed for Tebow to hold and wait for deeper type of routes and if not open or apparently refusing to throw to wide open guys, then stuck with running or taking a sack.

I basically saw the same offense when Orton was the QB minus the designed QB draws of course.

DrFate
10-23-2011, 04:43 PM
Five. Eight counting sacks.

Also, we had to drives in the first half where we ran it five times in a row.

Exactly. Any discussion regarding the play-calling begins and ends with that number. How many did he complete?

barryr
10-23-2011, 04:46 PM
Exactly. Any discussion regarding the play-calling begins and ends with that number. How many did he complete?

Yet it is stated by some his missed a bunch of open receivers, which he did while handing the ball off too?

KO5K
10-23-2011, 04:47 PM
I don't know why McCoy wasn't calling screen passes, they would of been easy completions/big gains in that game. We called one, that's it.

bronco militia
10-23-2011, 04:47 PM
tebow was as terrible as the playcalling....this one reminded me of last years oakland game

Bronx33
10-23-2011, 04:48 PM
I am really going to cut tebow some slack today it looked like nerves were a big issue with his pass game as far as the run game was concerned sure it was working but it seemed they ran one to many times on 3rd down conversions forcing punts (just my opinion) flame away.

snowspot66
10-23-2011, 04:48 PM
Exactly. Any discussion regarding the play-calling begins and ends with that number. How many did he complete?

He was 3/5 to start. Except for the Moreno throw and the one over Fells' head I don't remember any other terrible throws. There were a few close misses (defender in his face on the Decker throw for example), a drop or two, a throw away or two, and a miscommunication (I'm assuming) but I don't remember any ugly throws other than those two mentioned.

broncosteven
10-23-2011, 04:57 PM
I am really going to cut tebow some slack today it looked like nerves were a big issue with his pass game as far as the run game was concerned sure it was working but it seemed they ran one to many times on 3rd down conversions forcing punts (just my opinion) flame away.

How dare you have an opinion or go on record with something that everyone was thinking!

Personally I didn't bash the play calling because when Timmy was given a pass play he wasn't executing. I bet had he completed more passes in the 1st half and if the run game wasn't clicking they would have called more passes.

Execution won the game, once TIm started completing passes downfield we started scoring. Lack of execution put us in the hole we had to climb out of.

MVPlaya II - Electric Boogaloo
10-23-2011, 04:58 PM
Never mind the fact that we won the game, right? The play-calling sucked fire has started and the more people repeat it, the more other people believe it.

I'm just curious... question for all of you forum coaching experts around here: how exactly would you have game-planned for a QB that couldn't hit the side of a barn for 55 minutes of a game?

We played out of the shotgun most of the day. (His comfort zone.)

We ran him plenty.

Our running game was productive.

We designed screens, dump-passes, short sideline routes, etc.

When he DID have open receivers, he missed them by a mile.

Oh, and before you answer... let's factor in the reality that Miami was crowding the line most of the day, sending multiple blitzes at him that he clearly was not experienced enough to understand or handle.

This isn't Tebow-bashing, either. I love the kid. I have no idea if he's a real answer long-term. None of us do. But, he was terrible for 55 minutes today.
I'd love to hear why the play-calling was so bad, despite the evidence to the contrary.

Most of the time, when **** works... people assume play-calling was good. When it doesn't, they assume execution has nothing to do with it.

Are you serious?

Where were the crossing routes? Where we the quick read routes (the routes where you read the depth of the CB)?

Any OC in the league can draw up some plays for ANY QB to completely short passes when you had a running game going like ours.

You're sitting here saying, what would you have done, but did you completely miss the last 5 minutes of the game? How about calling some of those plays?

They never gave him a chance to catch rhythm or complete some easy routes to get his confidence going.

Honestly, if you can't see it was the play calling you'd have to be nuts.

Next week, we aren't doing this **** against I guarantee you... so Popps if you honestly believe there is nothing wrong then you ought to think next weeks game plan will be similar.

Don't speak until then.

MVPlaya II - Electric Boogaloo
10-23-2011, 04:58 PM
How dare you have an opinion or go on record with something that everyone was thinking!

Personally I didn't bash the play calling because when Timmy was given a pass play he wasn't executing. I bet had he completed more passes in the 1st half and if the run game wasn't clicking they would have called more passes.

Execution won the game, once TIm started completing passes downfield we started scoring. Lack of execution put us in the hole we had to climb out of.

This is the same guy that says he'd rather start off without the football to start OT, when the objective is to score 1st.

We got some of the dumbest football minded people on here.

rbackfactory80
10-23-2011, 04:59 PM
It would be cool if the offensive line didn't decide they could take the day off because they have a QB that can actually move in the pocket.

Jason in LA
10-23-2011, 04:59 PM
I'd say that Tebow was terrible in the third quarter and half of the fourth. He didn't get enough opportunities in the first half to be horrible. They ran the ball too much. I think the offense should be slightly more run than pass, especially with a young QB who is a project, but that was damn near all running. Way too unbalanced and it produced nothing. I could understand if they had a great running game. But with what they have, they aren't going to be able to maintain long drives with mostly running plays.

barryr
10-23-2011, 05:00 PM
Are you serious?

Where were the crossing routes? Where we the quick read routes (the routes where you read the depth of the CB)?

Any OC in the league can draw up some plays for ANY QB to completely short passes when you had a running game going like ours.

You're sitting here saying, what would you have done, but did you completely miss the last 5 minutes of the game? How about calling some of those plays?

They never gave him a chance to catch rhythm or complete some easy routes to get his confidence going.

Honestly, if you can't see it was the play calling you'd have to be nuts.

Next week, we aren't doing this **** against I guarantee you... so Popps if you honestly believe there is nothing wrong then you ought to think next weeks game plan will be similar.

Don't speak until then.

True, I mentioned slant patterns myself and did we see much there? Those are usually good to start a game if the DB's play back and offer cushions.

DrFate
10-23-2011, 05:00 PM
I bet had he completed more passes in the 1st half

He was 3 of 5. If he threw the two completely out of the stadium, I don't see how 'he was inaccurate and that justifies the playcalling' argument makes sense.

snowspot66
10-23-2011, 05:00 PM
Regardless of what the QB is doing I don't think it is ever reasonable to be at a pass count of 14 with 55 minutes of the game already played. If he's off then you run plays to get him in a rhythm. You don't abandon the pass entirely. Half of the pass attempts should never come in the last five minutes (9 of 13 in those 5 minutes though).

Popps
10-23-2011, 05:02 PM
How many pass attempts in the first half?

How many completions in the game?

Let's not just talk about the first half, or if we are... how did he look throwing in the first half?

When a QB is throwing like he's never set eyes on a football before... you'd advocate having him throw more?

Just trying to get it straight.

Rohirrim
10-23-2011, 05:03 PM
Never mind the fact that we won the game, right? The play-calling sucked fire has started and the more people repeat it, the more other people believe it.

I'm just curious... question for all of you forum coaching experts around here: how exactly would you have game-planned for a QB that couldn't hit the side of a barn for 55 minutes of a game?

We played out of the shotgun most of the day. (His comfort zone.)

We ran him plenty.

Our running game was productive.

We designed screens, dump-passes, short sideline routes, etc.

When he DID have open receivers, he missed them by a mile.

Oh, and before you answer... let's factor in the reality that Miami was crowding the line most of the day, sending multiple blitzes at him that he clearly was not experienced enough to understand or handle.

This isn't Tebow-bashing, either. I love the kid. I have no idea if he's a real answer long-term. None of us do. But, he was terrible for 55 minutes today.
I'd love to hear why the play-calling was so bad, despite the evidence to the contrary.

Most of the time, when **** works... people assume play-calling was good. When it doesn't, they assume execution has nothing to do with it.

Good argument. Good luck with it on this site. The blinders are on and the narrative is already running down the track.

Popps
10-23-2011, 05:04 PM
Are you serious?

Where were the crossing routes?

Crossing routes? You mean those routes that require timing?

Did you see where his throws ended up?

So, your answer is that if a QB is starting off inaccurate (and apparently isn't accurate in practice) .... you'd advocate having him throw MORE, and having him throw timing patterns?

Someone get the front office on the phone.

MVPlaya II - Electric Boogaloo
10-23-2011, 05:05 PM
The DBs were playing with some huge cushions throughout the game, did you even see one attempt at a short slant or a read route?

The 1st one was when DT dropped the ball with a thud. What quarter was that in?

snowspot66
10-23-2011, 05:06 PM
How many completions in the game?

Let's not just talk about the first half, or if we are... how did he look throwing in the first half?

When a QB is throwing like he's never set eyes on a football before... you'd advocate having him throw more?

Just trying to get it straight.

He started 3 of 5. Please, explain to me in what world that screams out so terrible that you only throw the ball another 9 times until the game is nearly over?

MVPlaya II - Electric Boogaloo
10-23-2011, 05:06 PM
Crossing routes? You mean those routes that require timing?

Did you see where his throws ended up?

So, your answer is that if a QB is starting off inaccurate (and apparently isn't accurate in practice) .... you'd advocate having him throw MORE, and having him throw timing patterns?

Someone get the front office on the phone.

I mean the crossing routes that he completed in the final minutes of the game.

Yeah, those.

DrFate
10-23-2011, 05:07 PM
how did he look throwing in the first half?


He hit on 60% of his attempts. On a game plan that looked like it was created by the local high school coach. It's not always about how often you pass, it's about when. When you dig up the 1957 'run, run, pass, punt' game plan, you put the QB in an impossible situation.

Popps
10-23-2011, 05:07 PM
Good argument. Good luck with it on this site. The blinders are on and the narrative is already running down the track.

Yea, I mean... the staff were idiots for starting the better practice player... now they start the guy everyone wants... and they're idiots for putting together a game plan that kept the game close and ultimately won... despite a couple missed FGs.

Hopefully we can just get BitchinBroncoBilly or one of these posters on the sidelines next weekend to straighten the staff out.

Bronx33
10-23-2011, 05:08 PM
I think time will determine if tebow goes long term but i am not going makes a decision to kick him to the curb based on practices and 1 game.

MVPlaya II - Electric Boogaloo
10-23-2011, 05:08 PM
another problem is that McCoy is absolutely horrible with adjustments, adjusting to what the defense is doing.. etc.

I honestly feel like people just watch the Broncos and that's it, that's why everybody sense of football is so poor.

jhns
10-23-2011, 05:08 PM
Yeah, I always hear that passers are better when you don't let them pass the ball. It really helps them settle down and all that... Who cares about those quick, easy throws, the QBs don't need to use those....

I know high school coaches that can call better games.

Rohirrim
10-23-2011, 05:11 PM
Yea, I mean... the staff were idiots for starting the better practice player... now they start the guy everyone wants... and they're idiots for putting together a game plan that kept the game close and ultimately won... despite a couple missed FGs.

Hopefully we can just get b****inBroncoBilly or one of these posters on the sidelines next weekend to straighten the staff out.

If Urban Meyer was calling the plays, it would have been 50 to zip.

You don't understand. It's not possible for Tebow to show imperfection. Therefore, if there were imperfections, they were caused by others.

DrFate
10-23-2011, 05:11 PM
Just trying to get it straight.

Let's not pretend you have some kind of 'straight shooter' reputation on this board. You have an agenda every time you click 'submit'.

Dr. Broncenstein
10-23-2011, 05:13 PM
Why does he have to pass from the pocket? Move the launch-point so that he has the option to throw or run by design. Pass from play action. You know, the stuff that made Plummer accurate.

snowspot66
10-23-2011, 05:13 PM
If Urban Meyer was calling the plays, it would have been 50 to zip.

You don't understand. It's not possible for Tebow to show imperfection. Therefore, if there were imperfections, they were caused by others.

It's not the imperfection that's the problem here. It's that somehow people think that 14 pass attempts in 55 minutes is somehow acceptable play calling.

Rohirrim
10-23-2011, 05:14 PM
It's not the imperfection that's the problem here. It's that somehow people think that 14 pass attempts in 55 minutes is somehow acceptable play calling.

It is for a guy who was passing as badly as Tim was for most of today.

broncosteven
10-23-2011, 05:14 PM
This is the same guy that says he'd rather start off without the football to start OT, when the objective is to score 1st.

We got some of the dumbest football minded people on here.

You are taking my post out of context and you read what you wanted to read into it but the fact that getting the ball 1st in OT didn't help Miami out any proved my point.

We had the momentum, the D was fresh I had no problem playing field position and ball control (no turnovers) in OT which they ended up doing to win the game.

If your point about getting the ball 1st being so important was accurate Miami would have won the game.

In some cases it is best to rely on your D to start the OT and play it safe with FP and protecting the ball.

Shanny did that in Buffalo back in 1997 but you likely don't remember because you wern't born yet. BTW The Broncos won the toss and elected to kick because the D had the momentum and we wanted to select the wind.

I love how you feel you know everything and can tell people what and when they can do things. You must be a treat to be around.

barryr
10-23-2011, 05:15 PM
Yea, I mean... the staff were idiots for starting the better practice player... now they start the guy everyone wants... and they're idiots for putting together a game plan that kept the game close and ultimately won... despite a couple missed FGs.

Hopefully we can just get b****inBroncoBilly or one of these posters on the sidelines next weekend to straighten the staff out.

Reeves would say he simply followed that plan with Elway all those years.

Rohirrim
10-23-2011, 05:16 PM
Why does he have to pass from the pocket? Move the launch-point so that he has the option to throw or run by design. Pass from play action. You know, the stuff that made Plummer accurate.

Did you see the roll out to the Left away from pressure where his dump off, Knowshon, was five yards in from of him and he lobbed it ten feet over his head?

Br0nc0Buster
10-23-2011, 05:16 PM
He started 3 of 5. Please, explain to me in what world that screams out so terrible that you only throw the ball another 9 times until the game is nearly over?

Matt Cassel was sacked twice as many times as Tom Brady was the previous year when he came in in 08. The line did not all of a sudden forget how to block, Cassel made them look worse because he was indecisive and would take sacks rather than forces passes

This is happening with Tebow. Our offensive line was not pass blocking well at all today, but Tebow is holding the ball too long and is not really attempting difficult passes until the end of the game when he has to. To sit there and say Tebow was 3/5 is short sighted. He played poorly today, you cannot possibly justify his play from the pocket for the first 3.5 quarters of the game.

Not sure if it is a recognition issue, or if he just is not comfortable with his drops but the guy is not making quick reads and throws for the most part.

I have seen him stand tall in the pocket and deliver good passes, but I think for now the coaching staff needs to get him out of the pocket more with boots and shifting the pocket until he gets a bit more comfortable

broncosteven
10-23-2011, 05:16 PM
Let's not pretend you have some kind of 'straight shooter' reputation on this board. You have an agenda every time you click 'submit'.

REP

Dr. Broncenstein
10-23-2011, 05:17 PM
Did you see the roll out to the Left away from pressure where his dump off, Knowshon, was five yards in from of him and he lobbed it ten feet over his head?

You mean the one that was called back by an offensive penalty and didn't count anyway?

Br0nc0Buster
10-23-2011, 05:17 PM
Why does he have to pass from the pocket? Move the launch-point so that he has the option to throw or run by design. Pass from play action. You know, the stuff that made Plummer accurate.

because teams will just load up the box and take away his roll outs.

If you cant execute from the pocket you cant play in the NFL

Gort
10-23-2011, 05:19 PM
It's not the imperfection that's the problem here. It's that somehow people think that 14 pass attempts in 55 minutes is somehow acceptable play calling.

(blows whistle, throws flag)

unnecessary inclusion of facts that would debunk the OP's argument.

(picks up flag)

15 yards and go stand in the corner for a half hour.

(blows whistle)

http://imgs.sfgate.com/c/pictures/2009/09/07/dd-obsession07_p_0500517067.jpg

DrFate
10-23-2011, 05:19 PM
To sit there and say Tebow was 3/5 is short sighted. He played poorly today, you cannot possibly justify his play from the pocket for the first 3.5 quarters of the game.


I was the one who originally brought up the first-half numbers. And I don't think anyone is trying to justify Tebow's overall play. But when have a young QB trying to get into a rhythm, 5 attempts in the first half is hard to justify. Questioning the playcalling is entirely justified on the first half attempts alone.

BroncoBuff
10-23-2011, 05:20 PM
I don't know why McCoy wasn't calling screen passes, they would of been easy completions/big gains.

It doesn't say where you live, but perhaps you heard me screaming this all game? :~ohyah!:

We need a wholesale re-vamp on offense. Tebow's is a unique skillset, playbook should be written for him. Probably get a backup who can run the same offense ... is Bradlee Van Pelt available?

Dr. Broncenstein
10-23-2011, 05:20 PM
because teams will just load up the box and take away his roll outs.

If you cant execute from the pocket you cant play in the NFL

Jake Plummer made a pretty good living at not being able to execute from the pocket.

broncosteven
10-23-2011, 05:21 PM
Did you see the roll out to the Left away from pressure where his dump off, Knowshon, was five yards in from of him and he lobbed it ten feet over his head?

That was in the 2nd quarter I think, Tim looked pannicked. He made the same type of play in the last game vs the chuggers.

This is a reach but maybe all the Gator half time **** threw Tim off and it took him awhile to calm down.

Br0nc0Buster
10-23-2011, 05:21 PM
Jake Plummer made a pretty good living at not being able to execute from the pocket.

if Jake Plummer is your standard then fine

I want Tebow to be a complete qb, not a bigger version of Jake Plummer

Plummer was good, but I want Tebow to be great

Gort
10-23-2011, 05:22 PM
Matt Cassel was sacked twice as many times as Tom Brady was the previous year when he came in in 08. The line did not all of a sudden forget how to block, Cassel made them look worse because he was indecisive and would take sacks rather than forces passes

This is happening with Tebow. Our offensive line was not pass blocking well at all today, but Tebow is holding the ball too long and is not really attempting difficult passes until the end of the game when he has to. To sit there and say Tebow was 3/5 is short sighted. He played poorly today, you cannot possibly justify his play from the pocket for the first 3.5 quarters of the game.

Not sure if it is a recognition issue, or if he just is not comfortable with his drops but the guy is not making quick reads and throws for the most part.

I have seen him stand tall in the pocket and deliver good passes, but I think for now the coaching staff needs to get him out of the pocket more with boots and shifting the pocket until he gets a bit more comfortable

so, all young QBs in their 4th start should be just as polished and decisive as Tom Brady is now. ???

maher_tyler
10-23-2011, 05:22 PM
How about a combination of Tebow not throwing well and bad play calling?? He missed some guys that were open. At the same time, it seems like the play calling is about as complex as something you'd see in college. There isn't much creativity or any formations out there that could help getting WR's open...i really hope we bring in a better OC next year.

DB-Freak
10-23-2011, 05:24 PM
How many completions in the game?

Let's not just talk about the first half, or if we are... how did he look throwing in the first half?

When a QB is throwing like he's never set eyes on a football before... you'd advocate having him throw more?

Just trying to get it straight.

You have a QB who is well known to be a rough around edges and who hasn't had much reps with his offense.

It's not completely ridiculous that you give him in game touches to get him going.

DB-Freak
10-23-2011, 05:24 PM
Let's not pretend you have some kind of 'straight shooter' reputation on this board. You have an agenda every time you click 'submit'.

LOL

BroncosSR
10-23-2011, 05:25 PM
I'd rather let the kid make mistakes throwing the ball than to completely shut down the passing game and make it a purely one dimensional offense. He'll learn from mistakes. Experience will pay dividends in the future.

Let's also not forget that we were 1 and 4 going into the game. It's not like we're trying to limit his mistakes until our star quarterback comes back from injury. The guy is our starting quarterback for the foreseeable future. Let the man grow, growing pains included.

Popps
10-23-2011, 05:27 PM
Let's not pretend you have some kind of 'straight shooter' reputation on this board. You have an agenda every time you click 'submit'.

Don't know don't care.

But, feel free to hop into the topic at hand, Chief.

Bronx33
10-23-2011, 05:28 PM
As far as the bad play calling is concerned ( it wasnt all bad) but i think McCoy went with the run one to many times on a few series and effectively killed some drives throwing any offensive flow into the wind.

Br0nc0Buster
10-23-2011, 05:28 PM
so, all young QBs in their 4th start should be just as polished and decisive as Tom Brady is now. ???

no, but I am showing you how indecisiveness from the qb position leads to sacks and missed opportunities

Thats what I saw from him today, doesnt mean I think he will never improve or anything

ØrangeÇrush
10-23-2011, 05:28 PM
Never mind the fact that we won the game, right? The play-calling sucked fire has started and the more people repeat it, the more other people believe it.

I'm just curious... question for all of you forum coaching experts around here: how exactly would you have game-planned for a QB that couldn't hit the side of a barn for 55 minutes of a game?

We played out of the shotgun most of the day. (His comfort zone.)

We ran him plenty.

Our running game was productive.

We designed screens, dump-passes, short sideline routes, etc.

When he DID have open receivers, he missed them by a mile.

Oh, and before you answer... let's factor in the reality that Miami was crowding the line most of the day, sending multiple blitzes at him that he clearly was not experienced enough to understand or handle.

This isn't Tebow-bashing, either. I love the kid. I have no idea if he's a real answer long-term. None of us do. But, he was terrible for 55 minutes today.
I'd love to hear why the play-calling was so bad, despite the evidence to the contrary.

Most of the time, when **** works... people assume play-calling was good. When it doesn't, they assume execution has nothing to do with it.

No problems with the play calling to me except in OT on the first drive. He was very inaccurate throughout the game and we wouldn't have been there in OT if Fells didn't have an out of his mind catch. Once McGahee went out the running game went a little flat. I would have liked to see a sliding pocket every once in a while since he seems to throw better on the move.

Gort
10-23-2011, 05:31 PM
no, but I am showing you how indecisiveness from the qb position leads to sacks and missed opportunities

Thats what I saw from him today, doesnt mean I think he will never improve or anything


he's a young QB in 4th NFL start. that pretty much explains everything right there. he's 2-2 with two 4th quarter comebacks. i mean, if this was Orton and he Orton in his 4th NFL start i'd be using the same excuse for him too. nobody walks into the NFL from college with all the skills and experience to compete at the highest level. nobody.

Popps
10-23-2011, 05:32 PM
I wonder if Tim had hit a couple passes... we would have thrown more?

Plus, Miami's D had 7 sacks and were in his face all day. Think they had a game plan today?

DrFate
10-23-2011, 05:33 PM
It's not completely ridiculous that you give him in game touches to get him going.

It's also not ridiculous to try to keep the defense off balance. It doesn't take Vince Lombardi to know that a team that runs on first and second down is likely to pass on third-and-long. Give a young player some high percentage chances early to get into a rhythm and gain some confidence.

Steve Prefontaine
10-23-2011, 05:34 PM
Never mind the fact that we won the game, right? The play-calling sucked fire has started and the more people repeat it, the more other people believe it.

I'm just curious... question for all of you forum kIcoaching experts around here: how exactly would you have game-planned for a QB that couldn't hit the side of a barn for 55 minutes of a game?

We played out of the shotgun most of the day. (His comfort zone.)

We ran him plenty.

Our running game was productive.

RtWe designed screens, dump-passes, short sideline routes, etc.

When he DID have open receivers, he missed them by a mile.

Oh, and before you answer... let's factor in the reality that Miami was crowding the line most of the day, sending multiple blitzes at him that he clearly was not experienced enough to understand or handle.

This isn't Tebow-bashing, either. I love the kid. I have no idea if he's a real answer long-term. None of us do. But, he was terrible for 55 minutes today.
I'd love to hear why the play-calling was so bad, despite the evidence to the contrary.

Most of the time, when **** works... people assume play-calling was good. When it doesn't, they assume execution has nothing to do with it.
We get it. You loved Orton. You hate Tebow.

**** you.

You're a joke.

Move on.

Bye.

DrFate
10-23-2011, 05:36 PM
I wonder if Tim had hit a couple passes... we would have thrown more?


He did - it was called 'the first half' - we've covered this...

Gort
10-23-2011, 05:37 PM
We get it. You loved Orton. You hate Tebow.

**** you.

You're a joke.

Move on.

Bye.

to be fair, i'm not sure Popps was a "love Orton, hate Tebow" guy. i do recall that he worked pretty hard to convince people that Hillis was too dumb to be coached, and i think he was also a Cutler/Shanahan guy, but i don't think he's been all over Orton's nuts the way TheElusiveKyleOrton and a couple of others have been.

Gort
10-23-2011, 05:39 PM
I wonder if Tim had hit a couple passes... we would have thrown more?

Plus, Miami's D had 7 sacks and were in his face all day. Think they had a game plan today?

the game plan went out the window once they saw McCoy call running play after running play. doesn't take a genius to put 8 in the box and have your DBs cheat up when the opponents are no more creative than "dive right" or "dive left", although to be fair, "QB keeper" probably confused them for about 200 microseconds.

vonqkilla
10-23-2011, 05:41 PM
I was gonna start a thread for this, but I guess im banned from that, lol.

Anyway, we take alot what he does for granted. Here's what I liked today.

The abilty to break tackles in the pocket and make plays. I wish I had video, but anyway, a few plays.

1. The near sack, broken for 20 yard run.

2. Blindside corner blitz, he spins away ala Elway (yep, went there), scrambled right and found DT for 6.

Cant take that stuff for granted, it was a great play by Tim to spin away, reset his eyes, and fire. In the redzone today, 2 for 2.

3. Reading blitz on the 2 pt, calling his #, and again a free corner whiffs again.

4. Firing a great pass to Fells who made an even better catch.

He converts the toughest plays and impossible plays routinely, and yet makes the most routine plays impossible. If he can just set his feet and get his mechanics consistent, his accuracy will become consistent.

His deficiencies are many, and stayin optimistic, that means he has tons of upside, and room to improve!!

Boobs McGee
10-23-2011, 05:46 PM
Question. Does anyone know how many designed pass plays were called? I'm just curious, because it SEEMED like they were giving him opportunities to throw, but he was either running for his life (poor blocking), couldn't see any receivers, or tucked an ran too early?

I just remember discussing this with the guys I was watching with earlier. It APPEARED like they tried to get him in the passing game, so I'm wondering if anyone knows the amount of times a designed pass play broke down for whatever reason?

Steve Prefontaine
10-23-2011, 05:47 PM
Popps. You're a huge ****face that has an agenda every time you post.

TEAM FIRST?

Unless you don't like a guy.

You're a dick

Popps
10-23-2011, 05:47 PM
We get it. You loved Orton. You hate Tebow.

**** you.

You're a joke.

Move on.

Bye.

Actually love Tebow and haven't really had a horse in the whole Tebow/Orton circle-jerk. But, thanks for checking in! :)

Popps
10-23-2011, 05:48 PM
Popps. You're a huge ****face that has an agenda every time you post.

TEAM FIRST?

Unless you don't like a guy.

You're a dick

I see. No answer to the question? Thanks for playing :)

DrFate
10-23-2011, 05:49 PM
Question. Does anyone know how many designed pass plays were called? I'm just curious, because it SEEMED like they were giving him opportunities to throw, but he was either running for his life (poor blocking), couldn't see any receivers, or tucked an ran too early?


I think this an excellent (and valid) question. The box score says 5 attempts in the first half, and there were 3 sacks. How many plays were CALLED as passes, but didn't result in such?

Bronx33
10-23-2011, 05:50 PM
I was gonna start a thread for this, but I guess im banned from that, lol.

Anyway, we take alot what he does for granted. Here's what I liked today.

The abilty to break tackles in the pocket and make plays. I wish I had video, but anyway, a few plays.

1. The near sack, broken for 20 yard run.

2. Blindside corner blitz, he spins away ala Elway (yep, went there), scrambled right and found DT for 6.

Cant take that stuff for granted, it was a great play by Tim to spin away, reset his eyes, and fire. In the redzone today, 2 for 2.

3. Reading blitz on the 2 pt, calling his #, and again a free corner whiffs again.

4. Firing a great pass to Fells who made an even better catch.

He converts the toughest plays and impossible plays routinely, and yet makes the most routine plays impossible. If he can just set his feet and get his mechanics consistent, his accuracy will become consistent.

His deficiencies are many, and stayin optimistic, that means he has tons of upside, and room to improve!!


Your not banned this site appears to still be under a DNS attack effecting certain functions i havent been able to post a thread for almost a month.

Gort
10-23-2011, 05:53 PM
Your not banned this site appears to still be under a DNS attack effecting certain functions i havent been able to post a thread for almost a month.

post the thread with a 1-letter title. then immediately go back and edit the title to whatever you want. works for me.

broncosteven
10-23-2011, 05:53 PM
I think this an excellent (and valid) question. The box score says 5 attempts in the first half, and there were 3 sacks. How many plays were CALLED as passes, but didn't result in such?

Not only plays that broke down but there were quite a few in-completed passing plays that were voided due to penalty's.

Then there was a completion he go credit to Eddie on that they declined the penalty

Bronx33
10-23-2011, 05:54 PM
post the thread with a 1-letter title. then immediately go back and edit the title to whatever you want. works for me.

hmmmm i shall try it thanks

Popps
10-23-2011, 05:54 PM
I think this an excellent (and valid) question. The box score says 5 attempts in the first half, and there were 3 sacks. How many plays were CALLED as passes, but didn't result in such?

Agree, which speaks to a young QB possibly (understandably) holding the ball too long. That would affect attempts and ultimately play calling.

jhns
10-23-2011, 05:56 PM
How about a combination of Tebow not throwing well and bad play calling?? He missed some guys that were open. At the same time, it seems like the play calling is about as complex as something you'd see in college. There isn't much creativity or any formations out there that could help getting WR's open...i really hope we bring in a better OC next year.

This is the truth.

It doesn't help that we just gave away one of the better receivers in the game. If they don't trust Tebow to play, they shouldn't have made the switch.

Steve Prefontaine
10-23-2011, 05:58 PM
to be fair, i'm not sure Popps was a "love Orton, hate Tebow" guy. i do recall that he worked pretty hard to convince people that Hillis was too dumb to be coached, and i think he was also a Cutler/Shanahan guy, but i don't think he's been all over Orton's nuts the way TheElusiveKyleOrton and a couple of others have been.
To be absoluely ****ing sure. Poops was a pro hillis guy.....until he wasn't.

Steve Prefontaine
10-23-2011, 06:02 PM
Never mind the fact that we won the game, right? The play-calling sucked fire has started and the more people repeat it, the more other people believe it.

I'm just curious... question for all of you forum coaching experts around here: how exactly would you have game-planned for a QB that couldn't hit the side of a barn for 55 minutes of a game?

We played out of the shotgun most of the day. (His comfort zone.)

We ran him plenty.

Our running game was productive.

We designed screens, dump-passes, short sideline routes, etc.

When he DID have open receivers, he missed them by a mile.

Oh, and before you answer... let's factor in the reality that Miami was crowding the line most of the day, sending multiple blitzes at him that he clearly was not experienced enough to understand or handle.

This isn't Tebow-bashing, either. I love the kid. I have no idea if he's a real answer long-term. None of us do. But, he was terrible for 55 minutes today.
I'd love to hear why the play-calling was so bad, despite the evidence to the contrary.

Most of the time, when **** works... people assume play-calling was good. When it doesn't, they assume execution has nothing to do with it.

I can't stress this enough. You are such a hypocritical poster that your opinion means nothing at this time. Please stop posting. You know nothing and I'm embarassed for you as a fellow Bronco fan.

Steve Prefontaine
10-23-2011, 06:04 PM
Again Poops. In case in wasn't clear. You are horrible. Please step away from the keyboard.

Popps
10-23-2011, 06:04 PM
I can't stress this enough. You are such a hypocritical poster that your opinion means nothing at this time. Please stop posting. You know nothing and I'm embarassed for you as a fellow Bronco fan.

I've never read any of your posts until you addressed me, which you can go ahead and stop. Grown-ups are trying to talk about football.

Just "neg-rep" me these comments, m'kay? ^5

Steve Prefontaine
10-23-2011, 06:09 PM
I've never read any of your posts until you addressed me, which you can go ahead and stop. Grown-ups are trying to talk about football.

Just "neg-rep" me these comments, m'kay? ^5

Again. You're comments are so subjective that your TEAM FIRST mantra is a joke. Suck a vag. Orton has a game like today and you start a thread....LOOK AT THIS WINNER!

hambone13
10-23-2011, 06:11 PM
Don't know don't care.

But, feel free to hop into the topic at hand, Chief.

Your opinion is the topic at hand, Ensign. You OP reeks of your undying support of your own general position on Tebow from the get go, that of always supporting the coaching staff, McD or not. When you get off of every coaches jock, you might gain a little respect.

Kaylore
10-23-2011, 06:12 PM
I'm Lol'ing at the idea that the offensive line played bad because it "gave up too many sacks".

DrFate
10-23-2011, 06:18 PM
Not only plays that broke down

these plays count


but there were quite a few in-completed passing plays that were voided due to penalty's.


These don't

DrFate
10-23-2011, 06:19 PM
Tebow's play was inconsistent. He's not decisive and his mechanics aren't solid.

That said, I think it's pretty clear the playcalling did him few favors today. You have to throw the ball at the right times. I don't fault them for a run-heavy gameplan. I do fault them for predictable play calling which puts a young QB in the crosshairs. I saw Newton score today on AN OPTION play. AN OPTION. The Carolina offensive staff are doing their best to maximize what Newton can do and hide his warts.

It's not about having Tebow run 30 times a game, that's silly. It's about rolling him about, moving the pocket, giving him options and minimizing the ability of the defense to confuse a young player. He seems to have a good deep ball, we need to see more of that. A lot of the flaws we see seem to be mechanical in nature - bad footwork causes the ball to sail. Where is the QB coach? What's he doing to improve this?

Garcia Bronco
10-23-2011, 06:23 PM
What part of Miami playing "prevent defense" the last 5 minutes do people not understand?

Teams will continue to crowd the line until Tebow can prove he can read a defense.

We didn't all of a sudden find a "scheme" that works unless you count being down 15 with 5 minutes to play a scheme. Miami was playing prevent and Tim took advantage of them.

Steve Prefontaine
10-23-2011, 06:25 PM
What part of Miami playing "prevent defense" the last 5 minutes do people not understand?

Teams will continue to crowd the line until Tebow can prove he can read a defense.

We didn't all of a sudden find a "scheme" that works unless you count being down 15 with 5 minutes to play a scheme. Miami was playing prevent and Tim took advantage of them.

I guess I don't understand how Kyle Orton doesn't undestand. Explain please garcia?

Popps
10-23-2011, 06:26 PM
Tebow's play was inconsistent. That said, I think it's pretty clear the playcalling did him few favors today.

Again, I'm not so sure. If a guy isn't in a passing groove... throwing near INT's and not completing passes, wouldn't protecting him from errors be doing him a favor?

I mean, we stayed close and eventually won the game. We'll never know, but asking him to air it out too much early in this game could have put us in a bigger hole.

I'd personally say that yes... using the middle of the field a couple more times seems like it would have been nice, but I totally understood what they were doing. They were trying to let him get his feet under him, which basically didn't happen until the last few minutes.

DrFate
10-23-2011, 06:27 PM
Teams will continue to crowd the line until Tebow can prove he can read a defense.

Five pass attempts in the first half. Teams will continue to crowd the line until Tebow can at least threaten them with the pass. And part of this failing is play-calling.

DrFate
10-23-2011, 06:30 PM
If a guy isn't in a passing groove... throwing near INT's and not completing passes

He had 5 attempts in the first 30 minutes of play and completed 3 of those. 'They didn't call passes because Tebow wasn't completing them' is an argument that simply doesn't agree with reality.

He was certainly inconsistent (for the entire game) and his accuracy needs much improvement. But a guy can't get into a passing groove throwing 5 times in the first half.

Steve Prefontaine
10-23-2011, 06:33 PM
Again, I'm not so sure.
It explains every post you make.

broncosteven
10-23-2011, 06:35 PM
these plays count



These don't

Right and there would have been more incompletions if they counted the attempts (incompletions) negated by penalty.

DrFate
10-23-2011, 06:36 PM
Right and there would have been more incompletions if they counted the attempts (incompletions) negated by penalty.

And if Granny had wheels she'd be a bicycle. Plays negated by penalty don't count.

Garcia Bronco
10-23-2011, 06:37 PM
I guess I don't understand how Kyle Orton doesn't undestand. Explain please garcia?

Orton is the prevent defense garbage stat king.

But Kyle Orton has nothing to do with this.

MacGruder
10-23-2011, 06:39 PM
-Is Fox not letting Tebow pass because Tebow sucks?

-Or is Tebow sucking because Fox won't let him pass?

Which is it?

Look at Fox's history with quarterbacks, especially young ones - do the math.

White Dragon
10-23-2011, 06:40 PM
He had 5 attempts in the first 30 minutes of play and completed 3 of those. 'They didn't call passes because Tebow wasn't completing them' is an argument that simply doesn't agree with reality.

He was certainly inconsistent (for the entire game) and his accuracy needs much improvement. But a guy can't get into a passing groove throwing 5 times in the first half.

This is invalid since...

passing attempts =/= passing plays called

Garcia Bronco
10-23-2011, 06:41 PM
Five pass attempts in the first half. Teams will continue to crowd the line until Tebow can at least threaten them with the pass. And part of this failing is play-calling.

I don't agree with that. Tebow's problem isn't the play calls, it's his decision making and his ability to adjust to the speed of the game. Over time he should get better. He has to, or he last in the league.

Popps
10-23-2011, 06:41 PM
Right and there would have been more incompletions if they counted the attempts (incompletions) negated by penalty.

Yea, someone pointed out... I think you'd have to calculate by designed passing plays... not attempts if you want to critique the plan. (Not just execution.)

DrFate
10-23-2011, 06:42 PM
passing attempts =/= passing plays called

Read the whole thread - someone else pointed this out and I agreed with them

Steve Prefontaine
10-23-2011, 06:42 PM
Orton is the prevent defense garbage stat king.

But Kyle Orton has nothing to do with this.

Uh. Sure. The other options at QB are?

Steve Prefontaine
10-23-2011, 06:44 PM
He has to, or he last in the league.
English please.

Garcia Bronco
10-23-2011, 06:44 PM
Uh. Sure. The other options at QB are?

We are talking about Tim Tebow, not Kyle Orton.

You seem to think that I am arguing that Kyle Orton should start. I am not. But Kyle Orton can move the ball on prevent defenses too.

White Dragon
10-23-2011, 06:45 PM
Read the whole thread - someone else pointed this out and I agreed with them

My apologize.

I'm just tired of people blaming play calling when Tebow played like garbage for 56 minutes.

He was unable to diagnose blitzes and adjust for the proper blocking assignments, didn't go through progressions, got happy feet and probably turned 10 passing plays into plays that didn't end up with a pass thrown.

DrFate
10-23-2011, 06:45 PM
I don't agree with that. Tebow's problem isn't the play calls, it's his decision making and his ability to adjust to the speed of the game.

Dan Marino wouldn't threaten the defense with the pass if he wasn't allowed to pass. I know what you are saying and I don't entirely disagree with you - but the playcalling did nothing to help a QB making his 4th career start. Dude had 5 attempts in 30 minutes of NFL play - of course they are going to crowd the line going into the 2nd half. VaTech throws more than that, and they hate to pass the ball. ^5

Garcia Bronco
10-23-2011, 06:45 PM
English please.

You can take the context of what I was saying and figure it out.

DrFate
10-23-2011, 06:48 PM
I'm just tired of people blaming play calling when Tebow played like garbage for 56 minutes.

He wasn't allowed to pass for 30 of those minutes. Nowhere in this thread have I tried to blow smoke on Tebow's overall performance. It was poor. It needs improvement.

Tebow has produced when he's been allowed to pass. Is that because of his performance or because of prevent defense only? That's what I'd like to find out.

Garcia Bronco
10-23-2011, 06:49 PM
Dan Marino wouldn't threaten the defense with the pass if he wasn't allowed to pass. I know what you are saying and I don't entirely disagree with you - but the playcalling did nothing to help a QB making his 4th career start. Dude had 5 attempts in 30 minutes of NFL play - of course they are going to crowd the line going into the 2nd half. VaTech throws more than that, and they hate to pass the ball. ^5

I did feel like I was watching a college game today. He had more than 5 attempts in the first half, or rather the offense attempted passing plays. He was unsure of his reads and tucked, then ran. I think it was the right thing for him to do. If he wasn't comfortable with what he was seeing, then he should run it.

DrFate
10-23-2011, 06:49 PM
turned 10 passing plays into plays that didn't end up with a pass thrown.

If someone demonstrated this in some fashion I'd concede the point.

White Dragon
10-23-2011, 06:50 PM
He wasn't allowed to pass for 30 of those minutes. Nowhere in this thread have I tried to blow smoke on Tebow's overall performance. It was poor. It needs improvement.

Tebow has produced when he's been allowed to pass. Is that because of his performance or because of prevent defense only? That's what I'd like to find out.

Like I said in my last post. Tebow took about 10 pass plays and turned them into plays where a pass wasn't thrown because of his inability to read the defense, go through progressions and stay still.

Steve Prefontaine
10-23-2011, 06:50 PM
You can take the context of what I was saying and figure it out.

I would rather stick to english if you would rather stick to your ridiculous argument which was?

White Dragon
10-23-2011, 06:51 PM
If someone demonstrated this in some fashion I'd concede the point.

7 sacks. That's 7 pass plays where a pass didn't get thrown.

DrFate
10-23-2011, 06:52 PM
7 sacks. That's 7 pass plays where a pass didn't get thrown.

All of those certainly weren't in the first half. And sacks are typically a sign of poor line play (although certainly not always)

Garcia Bronco
10-23-2011, 06:54 PM
7 sacks. That's 7 pass plays where a pass didn't get thrown.

Exactly..it was about 7-10 plays.

broncosteven
10-23-2011, 06:55 PM
And if Granny had wheels she'd be a bicycle. Plays negated by penalty don't count.

Timeout #2 by MIA at 06:09.
3-10-DEN 10
(6:09) (Shotgun) 15-T.Tebow pass incomplete short middle to 88-D.Thomas. PENALTY on MIA-37-Y.Bell, Roughing the Passer, 15 yards, enforced at DEN 10 - No Play.


1-10-DEN 25
(2:41) 15-T.Tebow pass incomplete short left to 27-K.Moreno. PENALTY on DEN-68-Z.Beadles, Ineligible Downfield Kick, 5 yards, enforced at DEN 25 - No Play.


Here are 2 more incompletions in the 1st half negated by penalty. My point is that the coaches evaluate these as well as the plays that count it doesn't matter if he is 3 of 5 or 3 of 7 to the stats but it could have impacted the coaches decision to run more on early downs on the drives that followed rather than allowing him to "pass his way" out of his issues.

There was also a completion for no gain that was called back.

I am guessing that with the way the run game was working and Tim's lack of comfort in the passing game contributed to the lack of passing plays called.

Garcia Bronco
10-23-2011, 06:55 PM
All of those certainly weren't in the first half. And sacks are typically a sign of poor line play (although certainly not always)

There were a couple where he only got 3 seconds, but he had time. The line is young and getting better each week, but they did well.

rbackfactory80
10-23-2011, 06:55 PM
I have never seen people this pissed after a win. You guys act like we have won our last 5 games. We took a step in the right direction today.

Popps
10-23-2011, 06:57 PM
All of those certainly weren't in the first half. And sacks are typically a sign of poor line play (although certainly not always)

For what it's worth... the general consensus from the better evaluators out there was that our line had been improving almost every week, and that the pass-pro had been pretty decent as of late. (Not great but decent.)

I said last week that I thought we were going to face stacked boxes and blitzes from here out... and it started today. That makes game-planning a bit harder unless you've got a guy who can burn teams with his arm. Hopefully in time, we'll see Tim develop that ability.

Bronx33
10-23-2011, 06:57 PM
I have never seen people this pissed after a win. You guys act like we have won our last 5 games. We took a step in the right direction today.

agreed but sadly some folks put it all on the line during the offseason and the last few games and that animosity is coming to the surface now that tebow has finally hit the field.

Garcia Bronco
10-23-2011, 06:58 PM
I have never seen people this pissed after a win. You guys act like we have won our last 5 games. We took a step in the right direction today.

I don't think anyone is pissed. We're just discussing the finer details.

And oh look, NBC kicked off their halftime highlights with us.

Br0nc0Buster
10-23-2011, 06:58 PM
All of those certainly weren't in the first half. And sacks are typically a sign of poor line play (although certainly not always)

a good qb who gets the ball out quickly can make up for a poor line

a qb who hold on to the ball and runs around is going to get sacked more

Peyton never gets sacked, yet his line is nothing special

I already used the example where Cassel stepped into Bradys same line and was sacked twice as much

Tebow does not make quick reads and throws, he is going to take more sacks until he fixes that

I dont have the play by play in front of me, but it was blatantly obvious Tebow holds on too long and he is also partly to blame for the low pass attempts

White Dragon
10-23-2011, 06:59 PM
All of those certainly weren't in the first half. And sacks are typically a sign of poor line play (although certainly not always)

Okay, I'll go off the first half only.

1st Quarter

1-10-DEN 37 (8:43) (Shotgun) 15-T.Tebow scrambles left guard ran ob at 50 for 13 yards (58-K.Dansby).

2-11-DEN 49 (7:36) (Shotgun) 15-T.Tebow scrambles left end to 50 for 1 yard (58-K.Dansby).

3-11-MIA 27 (2:19) (Shotgun) 15-T.Tebow sacked at MIA 31 for -4 yards (98-J.Odrick).

2nd Quarter

2-20-DEN 15 (1:52) 15-T.Tebow scrambles to DEN 36 for 21 yards (58-K.Dansby).

1-10-DEN 36 (:59) 15-T.Tebow sacked at DEN 28 for -8 yards (37-Y.Bell).

2-18-DEN 28 (:51) (Shotgun) 15-T.Tebow scrambles to DEN 32 for 4 yards (99-J.Taylor).

3-14-DEN 32 (:41) (Shotgun) 15-T.Tebow sacked at DEN 26 for -6 yards (70-K.Langford). FUMBLES (70-K.Langford), recovered by DEN-12-M.Willis at DEN 26.


That's 7 plays in the first half where passes were called (Tebow scrambled instead of a designed run) where a pass was not thrown.

Garcia Bronco
10-23-2011, 06:59 PM
For what it's worth... the general consensus from the better evaluators out there was that our line had been improving almost every week, and that the pass-pro had been pretty decent as of late. (Not great but decent.)

I said last week that I thought we were going to face stacked boxes and blitzes from here out... and it started today. That makes game-planning a bit harder unless you've got a guy who can burn teams with his arm. Hopefully in time, we'll see Tim develop that ability.

Exactly.

Bronx33
10-23-2011, 07:01 PM
I don't think anyone is pissed. We're just discussing the finer details.

And oh look, NBC kicked off their halftime highlights with us.



Hilarious!

Garcia Bronco
10-23-2011, 07:02 PM
Hilarious!

:)

KO5K
10-23-2011, 07:04 PM
That's 7 plays in the first half where passes were called (Tebow scrambled instead of a designed run) where a pass was not thrown.

You can't put that all on Tebow, Franklin ****ing sucked today. Two of those went for first downs anyway, so really it's only 5.

White Dragon
10-23-2011, 07:05 PM
You can't put that all on Tebow, Franklin ****ing sucked today. Two of those went for first downs anyway, so really it's only 5.

So because they went for first downs they should be discounted as designed passing plays?

Boobs McGee
10-23-2011, 07:21 PM
You can't put that all on Tebow, Franklin ****ing sucked today. Two of those went for first downs anyway, so really it's only 5.

The whole point of my original question (thank you White Dragon for breaking down the plays) was to find out how many "designated" pass plays were called.

Essentially, we're just trying to decipher the play calling, and whether or not McCoy was "reigning in" Tebow...whether or not they abandoned the pass or just didn't call enough passes.

Trying not to bash Tebow OR the McCoy, just figure out whether or not pass plays were being called.

broncosteven
10-23-2011, 07:22 PM
The whole point of my original question (thank you White Dragon for breaking down the plays) was to find out how many "designated" pass plays were called.

Essentially, we're just trying to decipher the play calling, and whether or not McCoy was "reigning in" Tebow...whether or not they abandoned the pass or just didn't call enough passes.

Trying not to bash Tebow OR the McCoy, just figure out whether or not pass plays were being called.

Exactly the point I was trying to make

Popps
10-23-2011, 07:24 PM
Agree, Boobs... I think people were quick to look for a scape-goat for Tim's poor play today when none existed. How about... he's playing in his 4th NFL game and was well-known as a project QB at this level?

Doesn't mean we should quit on him, clearly... it just means that people might have to exercise some patience and a broader view of what's going on down on the field.

KO5K
10-23-2011, 07:27 PM
So because they went for first downs they should be discounted as designed passing plays?

**** knows what you were arguing, if you were arguing how many pass plays were called then fine it was 7.

BroncoBuff
10-23-2011, 09:23 PM
Wow ... check this out from the Rotoworld game capsule:


The Broncos' grossly conservative game plan clearly wasn't geared to Tebow's strengths. They didn't put him in position to make easy throws and rarely even used screen plays, suggesting there is a feeling that the organization doesn't want to see Tebow succeed.

Popps
10-23-2011, 09:48 PM
Wow ... check this out from the Rotoworld game capsule:

Hilarious!

Sounds credible.

Wonder about those last couple of drives. I guess the front office changed their minds and wanted their own team to win again, huh?

Is the internet making people dumber?

Popps
10-23-2011, 09:49 PM
By the way.. his strengths are running and improvising. His strengths are not sitting in the pocket and picking apart defenses at this point.

So, the staff had him do more A than B today. Crazy huh?

Garcia Bronco
10-23-2011, 10:18 PM
He was 13/27 today according to the stat sheet. He'll get better

BroncoBuff
10-23-2011, 10:43 PM
I keep having this nagging feeling that Fox is the #1 and maybe only anti-Tebow guy in Dove Valley, and might have always been.

The Joker
10-23-2011, 10:57 PM
I keep having this nagging feeling that Fox is the #1 and maybe only anti-Tebow guy in Dove Valley, and might have always been.

Would they really have hired him if that was the case?

You think he'd lie to get the job? Not exactly a good way to build a relationship with Elway and Xanders if so, seems unlikely to me.

BroncoBuff
10-23-2011, 11:13 PM
Would they really have hired him if that was the case?

You think he'd lie to get the job? Not exactly a good way to build a relationship with Elway and Xanders if so, seems unlikely to me.

Maybe, but remember John is not exactly a front office veteran, and Fox has a SB and two Championship games under his belt ... he might've pushed for Orton.

Can't get past the Fox statement when asked why Tebow wasn't used vs. Green Bay: "We tried IT once, and IT wasn't effective" (reminded me of Josh calling Cutler "the player"). I know I'm always looking for the psych and motivation of guys, too much maybe, but those simply are not the words of a Tebow supporter.

Popps
10-23-2011, 11:25 PM
Buff, those were the words of someone upset about people telling him how to do his job... not someone who disliked Tebow.

Cito Pelon
10-24-2011, 12:36 AM
It's hard to say the playcalling was conservative, they called quite a few pass plays. The stat line only shows the pass attempts, a sack doesn't count as a pass attempt. With 7 sacks, those were really passing plays. Also, about 5 of Tebows runs were supposed to be passing plays.

I noticed there was not much separation by the receivers on quite a few passing attempts, and at least Tebow was not trying to force the ball too much. He did blow it a few times with wide open guys - Decker, Moreno, Fells. A few drops also - Royal, BeyBey, Willis. Also Decker pissed me off a couple times, one on the Tebow fumble Decker was right there to compete for the fumble and didn't even try, two Tebow hits him on the cross in the 4th Q and Decker runs out of bounds with a blocker in front of him and no defender within 6 yards of him.

ol#7
10-24-2011, 01:05 AM
Buff, those were the words of someone upset about people telling him how to do his job... not someone who disliked Tebow.

Agreed, but on the other side of the coin, Knowing that teams will stack the box as you pointed out, trading your deep threat in Lloyd who could bail your young QB out from time to time before he gets his first start is also a headscratcher as far as whether or not the FO wants him to succeed.

There is just some peculiar goings on at Dove Valley at the moment.

Tim needs to win to have a shot to be the guy, thats why it was important they pulled out the improbable win. Hard fought losses wont end with him ever getting a shot here. IF we dont need a QB, then the rebuilding Broncos are on track and can fill needs elsewhere. Thats really what fans should be hoping for.

oubronco
10-24-2011, 05:50 AM
So because they went for first downs they should be discounted as designed passing plays?

You can't make this shyt up

jhns
10-24-2011, 06:07 AM
Again, I was able to tell you exactly what was being run, based only on the formations and situations. Every d coordinator in this league is going to have an easily see what is comming if they don't learn how to call plays. People defending the multiple QB drass on third downs are not being rational at all.

If you are going to play Tebow, play him. If not, they shouldn't have made the switch. This coaching staff has been horrible this year. They have cost this team multiple games. They almost did it again yestrday.

Dedhed
10-24-2011, 07:18 AM
Here's my only beef with the play calling:

In that last 5 minutes, we found an offensive set/plays/etc that worked for us. We moved the ball and scored. In OT, we reverted right back to the first 55 minutes of the game. Run, run, 3rd and long, punt.

I agree with much of what you said about the first 55 minutes. I don't have a problem protecting our young QB, being pretty conservative, pounding the ball. Plus Tebow wasn't making good passes as it was, like you said.

But after seeing a number of plays that were working positively, I think they should have kept that going in OT. I feel like I have an issue with a lack of in-game adjusting rather than play calling.
This is my take exactly. I understand the desire to go plain and put the kid in a place where you minimize the chances to make mistakes. But after the two TD drives and the conversion, the offense was in rhythm, Tebow was throwing the ball well, and the Dolphins were reeling. Then we come out and go right back to the plays that were ineffective for 3.9 quarters.

Kaylore
10-24-2011, 07:35 AM
He was 13/27 today according to the stat sheet. He'll get better

He'll have to. We won't get to play a winless team every week. That was some of the uggliest 13/27 play I've ever seen.

Ray Finkle
10-24-2011, 07:50 AM
those were some of the ugliest throws I have ever seen a QB make. Unless he can throw a better, more accurate pass, he will never succeed.

Garcia Bronco
10-24-2011, 07:55 AM
Agreed, but on the other side of the coin, Knowing that teams will stack the box as you pointed out, trading your deep threat in Lloyd who could bail your young QB out from time to time before he gets his first start is also a headscratcher as far as whether or not the FO wants him to succeed.

There is just some peculiar goings on at Dove Valley at the moment.

Tim needs to win to have a shot to be the guy, thats why it was important they pulled out the improbable win. Hard fought losses wont end with him ever getting a shot here. IF we dont need a QB, then the rebuilding Broncos are on track and can fill needs elsewhere. Thats really what fans should be hoping for.

It's obvious to me that Lloyd didn't want to play with Tebow. Which I can understand. I'll never give someone a hardtime because they are worried about their carreer. We got nothing for him and I have to believe he pressed the trade.

Dedhed
10-24-2011, 07:55 AM
He'll have to. We won't get to play a winless team every week. That was some of the uggliest 13/27 play I've ever seen.

He'll have to get better, and I don't think there's any doubt he will. I think the play calling will improve, I think the WRs will improve, the OL will adjust and I think Tebow will get better.

This was DTs first action all year, Royal was in his first game back from injury, and Lloyd was gone. There's a lot of adjusting to do for everyone, and I think there's a lot of things that will improve quickly over the next couple of weeks.

You can see that Tebow is trying too hard not to make a mistake until there's no options left but to go out there, take chances, and sling it. It's been the same situation in all of his starts, and even against SD in the 2nd half.

He has to go out there and just play Tebow style football from the word go. He needs the coaching staff to allow him to do that, and he needs to be willing to make mistakes turn to turn the ball loose.

I thought the play calling was brutally conservative, but I also thought that Tebow's play through 3 quarters was brutally conservative as well. He was unwilling to put the ball in the air if it wasn't wide open, and things generally aren't wide open in the NFL, and it makes him indecisive. And when he wasn't pulling it down and running, he didn't put the ball anywhere near where it might be picked off. Unfortunately, that also meant that his guy didn't have a chance to make a play either.

When it came to do or die time, he pushed the envelope, was decisive and turned the ball loose. He has to be willing to do that from the opening snap.

vonqkilla
10-24-2011, 07:56 AM
Wow ... check this out from the Rotoworld game capsule:

My problem was there were no comebacks til the 4th qtr. I didnt like the playscalling at all, all the obvious tebow gimmicks, 3rd and 1 in the 2nd qtr, and the call a counter vs obvious run blitz, so stupid.

Counter no worky vs run blitz.

Garcia Bronco
10-24-2011, 07:57 AM
He'll have to. We won't get to play a winless team every week. That was some of the uggliest 13/27 play I've ever seen.

You know this as well as anybody; As soon as he can beat the 7-8 man rush, the defenses out there will have to play off.

MplsBronco
10-24-2011, 07:58 AM
Never mind the fact that we won the game, right? The play-calling sucked fire has started and the more people repeat it, the more other people believe it.

I'm just curious... question for all of you forum coaching experts around here: how exactly would you have game-planned for a QB that couldn't hit the side of a barn for 55 minutes of a game?

We played out of the shotgun most of the day. (His comfort zone.)

We ran him plenty.

Our running game was productive.

We designed screens, dump-passes, short sideline routes, etc.

When he DID have open receivers, he missed them by a mile.

Oh, and before you answer... let's factor in the reality that Miami was crowding the line most of the day, sending multiple blitzes at him that he clearly was not experienced enough to understand or handle.

This isn't Tebow-bashing, either. I love the kid. I have no idea if he's a real answer long-term. None of us do. But, he was terrible for 55 minutes today.
I'd love to hear why the play-calling was so bad, despite the evidence to the contrary.

Most of the time, when **** works... people assume play-calling was good. When it doesn't, they assume execution has nothing to do with it.

I used to think you were a quality poster. What happened?

KO5K
10-24-2011, 08:02 AM
You can see that Tebow is trying too hard not to make a mistake until there's no options left but to go out there, take chances, and sling it. It's been the same situation in all of his starts, and even against SD in the 2nd half.

He has to go out there and just play Tebow style football from the word go. He needs the coaching staff to allow him to do that, and he needs to be willing to make mistakes turn to turn the ball loose.

Couldn't agree more and Dawkins said something similar after the game.

I'd like to see Fox/Champ/B-Dawk go up to Tebow before the Lions game and just say to him "Let it rip, don't second guess yourself and if it goes wrong, we've got your back".

MplsBronco
10-24-2011, 08:03 AM
I did not see a gameplan designed with high percentage pass plays intended to help Tebow get a few completions under his belt and get into a rythm. They could easily have designed plays with 1 or 2 reads where Tebow could get rid of the ball quickly without a lot of analysis. Instead, they let him throw sparingly and expected him to be able to execute in those rare situations.

jsco70
10-24-2011, 08:07 AM
He'll have to get better, and I don't think there's any doubt he will. I think the play calling will improve, I think the WRs will improve, the OL will adjust and I think Tebow will get better.

This was DTs first action all year, Royal was in his first game back from injury, and Lloyd was gone. There's a lot of adjusting to do for everyone, and I think there's a lot of things that will improve quickly over the next couple of weeks.

You can see that Tebow is trying too hard not to make a mistake until there's no options left but to go out there, take chances, and sling it. It's been the same situation in all of his starts, and even against SD in the 2nd half.

He has to go out there and just play Tebow style football from the word go. He needs the coaching staff to allow him to do that, and he needs to be willing to make mistakes turn to turn the ball loose.

I thought the play calling was brutally conservative, but I also thought that Tebow's play through 3 quarters was brutally conservative as well. He was unwilling to put the ball in the air if it wasn't wide open, and things generally aren't wide open in the NFL, and it makes him indecisive. And when he wasn't pulling it down and running, he didn't put the ball anywhere near where it might be picked off. Unfortunately, that also meant that his guy didn't have a chance to make a play either.

When it came to do or die time, he pushed the envelope, was decisive and turned the ball loose. He has to be willing to do that from the opening snap.

Agree 100% with this take. He will improve over time. I would expect to see a much better passing day against the Lions, provided the coaches give him the chance. I would love to see more no huddle, up tempo play from the start.

Dedhed
10-24-2011, 08:09 AM
It's obvious to me that Lloyd didn't want to play with Tebow. Which I can understand. I'll never give someone a hardtime because they are worried about their carreer. We got nothing for him and I have to believe he pressed the trade.
Lloyd didn't want to play in Fox'S offense. Doesn't have anything to do with Tebow. He requested a trade before Tebow got the job.

jhns
10-24-2011, 08:12 AM
Lloyd didn't want to play in Fox'S offense. Doesn't have anything to do with Tebow. He requested a trade before Tebow got the job.

This. The guy was crying to the media while Orton was starting...

vonqkilla
10-24-2011, 08:16 AM
I totally agree with dragons point, the sacks and poor qb play killed the passing attack.

Kaylore
10-24-2011, 08:17 AM
You know this as well as anybody; As soon as he can beat the 7-8 man rush, the defenses out there will have to play off.

You're right. It's also in his best interest to learn to play from the pocket or at the very least get better at reading the defense's under center. That will make his mobility and athleticism that much more deadly.

TheChamp24
10-24-2011, 08:19 AM
I really think Tebow doesn't want to force anything if he doesn't have to, which resulted in a lot of sacks. Also because Franklin was terrible. My gosh was he terrible.
Tebow had some awful throws though. Missed Fells by a mile, a couple more that weren't even catchable.
I said it before, we need to run a spread offense with Tebow to spread out the defense.

jsco70
10-24-2011, 08:33 AM
You're right. It's also in his best interest to learn to play from the pocket or at the very least get better at reading the defense's under center. That will make his mobility and athleticism that much more deadly.

Yes, it is in the team's best interest he learn to play from the pocket. However, do you think it's the best interest at this particular time? I would rather see them play to his strengths at this time which is spread it out, play up-tempo and create chaos. Hell, it took Elway 10 to 12 years to become comfortable in the pocket.

The problem is Tebow won't be given 10 years. He's going to get 10 games which is obviously not enough time. I think this is unfortunate because I truly believe he can become a pocket passer in time. I would hate to see the team give up on him and then watch him succeed elsewhere.

Popps
10-24-2011, 11:07 AM
I really think Tebow doesn't want to force anything if he doesn't have to, which resulted in a lot of sacks. Also because Franklin was terrible. My gosh was he terrible.
Tebow had some awful throws though. Missed Fells by a mile, a couple more that weren't even catchable.
I said it before, we need to run a spread offense with Tebow to spread out the defense.

I actually agree on this, which is why I think it's funny that people are saying we should just let him go out there all willy-nilly, firing balls all over the field with his eyes closed.

Besides one really bad throw that should have been a pick-six early on, he mostly threw the ball away or took sacks.... I'm guessing because nothing was there or he didn't feel confident enough to make the throw.


Just watched the last few minutes again. Absolutely amazing comeback. Tebow was amazing and for all the flap about play-calling... they dialed it in perfectly to win this game at the end.

jhns
10-24-2011, 11:11 AM
I actually agree on this, which is why I think it's funny that people are saying we should just let him go out there all willy-nilly, firing balls all over the field with his eyes closed.

Besides one really bad throw that should have been a pick-six early on, he mostly threw the ball away or took sacks.... I'm guessing because nothing was there or he didn't feel confident enough to make the throw.


Just watched the last few minutes again. Absolutely amazing comeback. Tebow was amazing and for all the flap about play-calling... they dialed it in perfectly to win this game at the end.

Why are people still claiming that ball should have been a pick six? The announcer was dumb for saying it and the fans seem like they didn't actually watch the game.

That defender ran, jumped, and stretched for the ball. He still didn't come close to touching it. A ball that hits a defender in the hands is an almost pick. A ball that a defender has no chance of touching, is not an almost pick.

Haters gonna hate...

iforgotmypassword
10-24-2011, 01:26 PM
Never mind the fact that we won the game, right? The play-calling sucked fire has started and the more people repeat it, the more other people believe it.

I'm just curious... question for all of you forum coaching experts around here: how exactly would you have game-planned for a QB that couldn't hit the side of a barn for 55 minutes of a game?

We played out of the shotgun most of the day. (His comfort zone.)

We ran him plenty.

Our running game was productive.

We designed screens, dump-passes, short sideline routes, etc.

When he DID have open receivers, he missed them by a mile.

Oh, and before you answer... let's factor in the reality that Miami was crowding the line most of the day, sending multiple blitzes at him that he clearly was not experienced enough to understand or handle.

This isn't Tebow-bashing, either. I love the kid. I have no idea if he's a real answer long-term. None of us do. But, he was terrible for 55 minutes today.
I'd love to hear why the play-calling was so bad, despite the evidence to the contrary.

Most of the time, when **** works... people assume play-calling was good. When it doesn't, they assume execution has nothing to do with it.

You obviously have absolutely zero game planning/coaching skills. Likewise you obviously have no idea of quarterback reads. You answer your question with your post... Miami was crowding the line and sending tons of blitzes... at this point you call plays with a deep threat option. You ever heard the term "throw it over their heads" in football lingo?

They stack the line and blitz, you stretch em out....They give you a soft zone then you chip away at them. This is 101 **** here.

iforgotmypassword
10-24-2011, 01:35 PM
Peter King this morning on MMQB...


"I'm sure this is because Tebow hasn't given offensive coordinator Mike McCoy and coach John Fox reason to think he's ready to play an Aaron Rodgers, bombs-away type of game, but that was the most conservative, buttoned-up gameplan Denver had for most of the game. If you're going to give the guy a chance to win the starting job, you've got to let him play more than this gameplan allowed. A win's a win, but I thought the Broncos were to the right of Michele Bachmann in the game."


Nailed it! Plus he definately gets quote of the week for the Backmann statement.


Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/peter_king/10/24/Week7/index.html#ixzz1bjXG0UhN

jhns
10-24-2011, 01:37 PM
Peter King this morning on MMQB...


"I'm sure this is because Tebow hasn't given offensive coordinator Mike McCoy and coach John Fox reason to think he's ready to play an Aaron Rodgers, bombs-away type of game, but that was the most conservative, buttoned-up gameplan Denver had for most of the game. If you're going to give the guy a chance to win the starting job, you've got to let him play more than this gameplan allowed. A win's a win, but I thought the Broncos were to the right of Michele Bachmann in the game."


Nailed it! Plus he definately gets quote of the week for the Backmann statement.


Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/peter_king/10/24/Week7/index.html#ixzz1bjXG0UhN

Exactly what I said Peter!

The haters don't agree though...

bowtown
10-24-2011, 01:38 PM
Peter King this morning on MMQB...


"I'm sure this is because Tebow hasn't given offensive coordinator Mike McCoy and coach John Fox reason to think he's ready to play an Aaron Rodgers, bombs-away type of game, but that was the most conservative, buttoned-up gameplan Denver had for most of the game. If you're going to give the guy a chance to win the starting job, you've got to let him play more than this gameplan allowed. A win's a win, but I thought the Broncos were to the right of Michele Bachmann in the game."


Nailed it! Plus he definately gets quote of the week for the Backmann statement.


Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/peter_king/10/24/Week7/index.html#ixzz1bjXG0UhN

Also this!


Coffeenerdness: I believe I set a personal record Sunday. Ten total shots of espresso in three lattes between 6 a.m. and 10:30 p.m. Not that it's going to come back to haunt me or anything.

Inkana7
10-24-2011, 01:55 PM
I can't stress this enough. You are such a hypocritical poster that your opinion means nothing at this time. Please stop posting. You know nothing and I'm embarassed for you as a fellow Bronco fan.

Dude, shut the **** up unless you have something meaningful to rebuff Popps with. Replying to his OP with "nanana I hate you" is the stuff that is making this forum unbearable.

jhns
10-24-2011, 01:56 PM
Dude, shut the **** up unless you have something meaningful to rebuff Popps with. Replying to his OP with "nanana I hate you" is the stuff that is making this forum unbearable.

Or the trolling displayed in the OP is what makes it unbearable.

Steve Prefontaine
10-24-2011, 02:19 PM
Dude, shut the **** up unless you have something meaningful to rebuff Popps with. Replying to his OP with "nanana I hate you" is the stuff that is making this forum unbearable.

Dude, my Nana doesn't hate you or Popps. Lay of the family stuff please.

But she did say you should grow some tougher skin. I think Popps can handle himself.

Garcia Bronco
10-24-2011, 02:21 PM
Yes, it is in the team's best interest he learn to play from the pocket. However, do you think it's the best interest at this particular time? I would rather see them play to his strengths at this time which is spread it out, play up-tempo and create chaos. Hell, it took Elway 10 to 12 years to become comfortable in the pocket.

The problem is Tebow won't be given 10 years. He's going to get 10 games which is obviously not enough time. I think this is unfortunate because I truly believe he can become a pocket passer in time. I would hate to see the team give up on him and then watch him succeed elsewhere.

There has to be a balance, but yes they team needs to work within his limitations while exposing him to things that will make him grow.

DomCasual
10-24-2011, 03:48 PM
When I was a kid, my buddy and I would play catch with the football from about ten yards apart. We'd count how many times we could go in a row without dropping it. There was nothing special about it, but it sure seemed a lot harder when we'd get up to about 100, or so.

That's what I see with Tebow. How many times did you see him second and third-guessing himself yesterday? How many times did he go to throw, and then pull it back? Most of his sacks looked to be just from his indecisiveness. His passes look like they're thrown by someone who is gripping it so hard, he can't actually throw it.

I don't know if he's putting that pressure on himself, or if it's the coaching staff that's done it. But other than the last five minutes, he looked like he was motivated more by a fear of failure than he was by a desire to succeed.

Someone made the point the other day that nobody has named Tebow the starter for the rest of the season. I wish they would. I wish they'd just give him the ball, and say, "Look, unless you get injured, you are our guy going forward." Take the pressure off of him, and let him go.

Steve Prefontaine
10-24-2011, 04:22 PM
When I was a kid, my buddy and I would play catch with the football from about ten yards apart. We'd count how many times we could go in a row without dropping it. There was nothing special about it, but it sure seemed a lot harder when we'd get up to about 100, or so.

That's what I see with Tebow. How many times did you see him second and third-guessing himself yesterday? How many times did he go to throw, and then pull it back? Most of his sacks looked to be just from his indecisiveness. His passes look like they're thrown by someone who is gripping it so hard, he can't actually throw it.

I don't know if he's putting that pressure on himself, or if it's the coaching staff that's done it. But other than the last five minutes, he looked like he was motivated more by a fear of failure than he was by a desire to succeed.

Someone made the point the other day that nobody has named Tebow the starter for the rest of the season. I wish they would. I wish they'd just give him the ball, and say, "Look, unless you get injured, you are our guy going forward." Take the pressure off of him, and let him go.
Spot on. Rep.

Popps
10-24-2011, 04:36 PM
There has to be a balance, but yes they team needs to work within his limitations while exposing him to things that will make him grow.

Yea, that's where we are.

His first pass from scrimmage yesterday should have been picked and taken to the house. After that, the passes didn't get much better and he looked very uncomfortable in the pocket. The running game was working, so... logically, the staff pulled back the reigns and had tried to protect him from himself for a while.... and it worked. The game stayed close and we were able to open it up at the end and win.

Now, going forward will we be able to win with a game plan like this? Of course not. Miami is awful. If Tim plays like that next Sunday, we'll be down 30 points by halftime. But, I suspect the staff will try to open things up for him a bit, without exposing his weaknesses too much. Once again, this notion of just "turning him loose" and letting him go willy-nilly isn't going to happen in the real world. It's not college football. He'll get murdered out there playing like that every week. The guy needs a system he can execute to keep defenses honest. It MAY take more than one game with the new coaching staff to implement such a game plan. We won his FIRST game as a starter. (With this staff.) People are just going to need to show some patience with him... and with the staff. I'm not making these rules, I'm just trying to explain to people what's happening... which should be pretty obvious.

Bronx33
10-24-2011, 04:41 PM
I think folks are over analyzing this game it was tebows first game and nerves were obvious for all to see let just see a few more games before you start nit picking every single movement the guy makes.

With all the hype since game one about himself and with the orton debacle the pressure on him must have been HUGE to preform yesterday and no i am not making excuses for him but by damn i will give him a fair shot its foolish not too your only beating your own head against the wall and like dom casual eluded too this team needs to commit to tebow and quit beating around the bush and move forward.

Popps
10-24-2011, 04:47 PM
You obviously have absolutely zero game planning/coaching skills.

You probably do. That's why you're posting on a football forum... clearly.

Likewise you obviously have no idea of quarterback reads. You answer your question with your post... Miami was crowding the line and sending tons of blitzes... at this point you call plays with a deep threat option. You ever heard the term "throw it over their heads" in football lingo?

Yea, did you happen to actually watch the game? Happen to see Decker sprinting WIDE open while Tebow sailed the ball 30 yards past him? How about Fells standing on a deserted island waiting for a pass 30 yards down-field as Tim threw it into the stands?

See, we can do this all day long... but the bottom line is, the staff knew he couldn't hit the side of a barn yesterday... and weren't going to continue to try to force a square peg into a round hole.


See, while I don't have your lengthy pro coaching pedigree... I can fairly easily deduce that you don't win by doing MORE of the thing that is clearly not working. The staff knew that, and they managed to keep the game close enough for Timmy to win.

It's also one game, so we should probably panic and assume this is the same game-plan we'll use forever.

Anyway, they probably need you over at Dove Valley... talk later...

Kid A
10-24-2011, 04:58 PM
That's what I see with Tebow. How many times did you see him second and third-guessing himself yesterday? How many times did he go to throw, and then pull it back? Most of his sacks looked to be just from his indecisiveness. His passes look like they're thrown by someone who is gripping it so hard, he can't actually throw it.

I don't know if he's putting that pressure on himself, or if it's the coaching staff that's done it. But other than the last five minutes, he looked like he was motivated more by a fear of failure than he was by a desire to succeed.


I tried to make a similar point in another thread, but you put it much better here. It's not a matter of if his technique is so bad he can't hit a wide open target (it isn't), it whatever is going through his head right before he releases is it.

The last five minutes (I haven't re-watched the full drives, so this is from memory) I believe Miami dropped back in zone and didn't bring any LB or CB rushers. 1) nothing to lose in terms of looking any worse and 2) knowing he had a set amount of time in the pocket every play = him not over-thinking when/how/if to get rid of the ball and simply throwing it how he has practiced to the open guy in the middle.

jhns
10-24-2011, 08:42 PM
Yea, that's where we are.

His first pass from scrimmage yesterday should have been picked and taken to the house.

False. The defender couldn't even graze the ball after jumping and stretching. It would be nice if people actually watched the games, rather than just listen to play by play, when they try to break stuff down. This play makes it very easy to see who did what.

The ball that wasn't close to being within the defenders reach should have been picked! I is smart!

iforgotmypassword
10-24-2011, 09:39 PM
You probably do. That's why you're posting on a football forum... clearly.



Yea, did you happen to actually watch the game? Happen to see Decker sprinting WIDE open while Tebow sailed the ball 30 yards past him? How about Fells standing on a deserted island waiting for a pass 30 yards down-field as Tim threw it into the stands?

See, we can do this all day long... but the bottom line is, the staff knew he couldn't hit the side of a barn yesterday... and weren't going to continue to try to force a square peg into a round hole.


See, while I don't have your lengthy pro coaching pedigree... I can fairly easily deduce that you don't win by doing MORE of the thing that is clearly not working. The staff knew that, and they managed to keep the game close enough for Timmy to win.

It's also one game, so we should probably panic and assume this is the same game-plan we'll use forever.

Anyway, they probably need you over at Dove Valley... talk later...

Yeah.... Tebow had some bad passes, I'm not saying he that he didn't. What I'm saying is that the coaching was horrible. You named two passes, look at the rest of the game. the-rest-of-the-game

So you can "easily deduce that you don't win by doing MORE of the thing that is clearly not working."

Then you can also easily deduce that our ultra conservative offense that we ran for 90% of the game didn't work. Right? Can you figure that much out.

I'm not a pro coach. I do have a minor in coaching, I did play college ball, and I'm graduating after this fall to go into teaching and coach High School ball. It doesn't take a pro coach to know basic 101 football knowledge. If I'm not qualified to call three in a half quarters with zero points bad coaching, then who the hell are you to call 55 minutes of a shut out football good coaching?

Maybe Peter King is qualified to make that analysis?

Popps
10-24-2011, 09:52 PM
Then you can also easily deduce that our ultra conservative offense that we ran for 90% of the game didn't work. Right? Can you figure that much out.


Put it this way, if he can complete some passes or just get the ball near guys in the first 3 quarters, I expect the staff to let him pass more. If he is looking like he looked in the first 55 minutes of this game... they're simply not going to cut him loose.

Would I like to see him roll out more, use more of the middle of the field... etc? Of course. But, the simple point is that the staff protected him from himself on Sunday and actually kept the game close enough for him to do what he does late in the game.

Popps
10-24-2011, 10:01 PM
then who the hell are you to call 55 minutes of a shut out football good coaching?


Didn't say it was necessarily "good coaching" so much as it was not a surprise, given the god-awful passing of the guy behind center. If Prater hits his FGs... it's a relatively tight game through 3 quarters.

I sense that people just can't deal with the notion that he's a young QB who isn't a polished passer, and need another story to make themselves feel better.
I'm not sure why there has to be a scape-goat. He passed very poorly for most of the game. The staff reacted accordingly. He made a phenomenal effort late in the game and we got the win.

He'll need to pass the ball better this weekend or we'll get blown out of the stadium. I expect the staff to try to lengthen his leash this weekend. Hopefully he can come out and play better than he did this week.

Nobody is ripping the kid. I'm a big fan... it's just very apparent what went on.

iforgotmypassword
10-24-2011, 10:11 PM
He needs to calm down in the pocket. He's erratic.... and yes, he needs to play better or we will loose, he played like ****. Footwork and calming the F down can make up for a whooole lot of accuracy issues. But above him, the coaches have to open it up or Detroit will murder us. If they can play 8 or 9 in the box with the D-line they have and we don't stretch them out, say hello to 2-5. Theres a fine line between protecting a young quarterback and hindering a young qb.

It's like the preacher's daughter who slammed the whole basketball team her freshman year of college. Protect them too much and you end up hurting them.