Khaddafi Dead, Next Tyrant On Deck?

[Smiling Assassin27]

These guys don't understand that when you live by the ruthless, merciless, and tyrannical sword, you usually die by bazooka. Sadly, this is only the beginning, as the power vacuum is now sure to be filled by guys like Khadafy.

http://l.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/WnVx_bOCNJ38.NohDfCdBQ--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Zmk9aW5zZXQ7aD0zNjQ7cT04NTt3PTUxMg--/http://media.zenfs.com/en_us/News/Reuters/2011-10-20T135106Z_01_EF01_RTRIDSP_3_LIBYA.jpg

[mhgaffney]

Smiling assassin didn't get his name by accident.

He glories in this -- what a twisted excuse for a human being.

The fact is our nation has plunged N Africa into a blood bath. This is only the start.

[Rohirrim]

Yeah, Gaddafi was a good guy. Just misunderstood. It's all America's fault.

[mhgaffney]

Idiot.

You always miss the point.

This was another dark chapter in covert ops -- another "success" for the US CIA and NATO -- and why?

One word: OIL.

You need to turn off FOX and study up on the real history.

[Rohirrim]

Idiot.

You always miss the point.

This was another dark chapter in covert ops -- another "success" for the US CIA and NATO -- and why?

One word: OIL.

You need to turn off FOX and study up on the real history.

You're an ass. Gaddafi was a butcher. His own people rose up against his tyranny and shot him dead in retribution. I'll bet you can't wipe your ass without wondering whether your toilet paper might not be a part of some conspiracy.

[alkemical]

http://s.buzzfeed.com//static/imagebuzz/web04/2011/10/19/15/man-killed-to-death-25932-1319054254-21.jpg

[mhgaffney]

You're an ass. Gaddafi was a butcher. His own people rose up against his tyranny and shot him dead in retribution. I'll bet you can't wipe your ass without wondering whether your toilet paper might not be a part of some conspiracy.

Your problem is you have internalized the US exceptionalism nonsense. That God appointed the US to intervene everywhere on behalf of justice and righteousness.

The problem is that when we do -- we always make things much worse.

There is no evidence that the rebels in Libya have the support of a majority of the Libyan people. On the contrary -- everything I have seen points to a small disgruntled minority that NATO armed and supported with air power -- to create mayhem - and get rid of Khadaffy.

So that western interests could go in there and get the oil.

The losers here are the Libyan people. Whatever you think of Khadaffy -- he plowed large amounts of cash from oil back into his country -- and spread it around the region in development projects.

You ned to explain why -- if Khadaffy was so evil -- the Libyan people had the highest per capita income in Africa.

You are a closed minded liberal boor. A loud mouth -- with nothing between your ears.

[Rohirrim]

Your problem is you have internalized the US exceptionalism nonsense. That God appointed the US to intervene everywhere on behalf of justice and righteousness.

The problem is that when we do -- we always make things much worse.

There is no evidence that the rebels in Libya have the support of a majority of the Libyan people. On the contrary -- everything I have seen points to a small disgruntled minority that NATO armed and supported with air power -- to create mayhem - and get rid of Khadaffy.

So that western interests could go in there and get the oil.

The losers here are the Libyan people. Whatever you think of Khadaffy -- he plowed large amounts of cash from oil back into his country -- and spread it around the region in development projects.

You ned to explain why -- if Khadaffy was so evil -- the Libyan people had the highest per capita income in Africa.

You are a closed minded liberal boor. A loud mouth -- with nothing between your ears.

You're a ****ing deluded lunatic. I was just listening to a reporter on the streets of Tripoli on NPR. Thousands of Libyans are partying in the streets. She said the streets are filled with people weeping for joy and dancing.

Why do you always find yourself defending the killers of freedom like Gaddafi, and Ahmadjihad, and Chavez, and Hamas?

[TheDave]

These guys don't understand that when you live by the ruthless, merciless, and tyrannical sword, you usually die by bazooka. Sadly, this is only the beginning, as the power vacuum is now sure to be filled by guys like Khadafy.



It is just pathetic/sad/brutal to watch that process happen over and over again...and they are practicaly swimming in a near priceless commodity. Imagine what happens if the well runs dry. (or we replace it.)

[TonyR]

Bush and Saddam - One Trillion dollars and thousands of US lives.

Obama and Qaddafi - One Billion dollars and zero US lives.

[ant1999e]

Bush and Saddam - One Trillion dollars and thousands of US lives.

Obama and Qaddafi - One Billion dollars and zero US lives.

Everything's gotta be political with you. I guess that's all that really matters to people like you.

[Doggcow]

How come his name gets spelled differently every single post?

[TonyR]

Everything's gotta be political with you. I guess that's all that really matters to people like you.

Relax, Nancy. Everyone bashes Obama every chance they get, usually with a healthy dose of spin, ignorance and disinformation. I think it's fair to point out here that his policy worked, right? And to juxtapose it against the massive mistakes of the previous administration which people like you blindly supported?

[DenverBrit]

Your problem is you have internalized the US exceptionalism nonsense. That God appointed the US to intervene everywhere on behalf of justice and righteousness.

The problem is that when we do -- we always make things much worse.

There is no evidence that the rebels in Libya have the support of a majority of the Libyan people. On the contrary -- everything I have seen points to a small disgruntled minority that NATO armed and supported with air power -- to create mayhem - and get rid of Khadaffy.

So that western interests could go in there and get the oil.

The losers here are the Libyan people. Whatever you think of Khadaffy -- he plowed large amounts of cash from oil back into his country -- and spread it around the region in development projects.

You ned to explain why -- if Khadaffy was so evil -- the Libyan people had the highest per capita income in Africa.

You are a closed minded liberal boor. A loud mouth -- with nothing between your ears.

Typical Gaffney. Doesn't bother with the facts, just anti western rhetoric all wrapped up in one of his 'conspiracy' rants.

Celebrations are happening all over the world now that the mass murdering pos you admire so much is dead.

[Rigs11]

Relax, Nancy. Everyone bashes Obama every chance they get, usually with a healthy dose of spin, ignorance and disinformation. I think it's fair to point out here that his policy worked, right? And to juxtapose it against the massive mistakes of the previous administration which people like you blindly supported?

Yep both bin laden and ghadafi dead while obama is prez.yet the presidential candidates on the right will still claim that obama is weak.bank on it

[baja]

A few minutes ago there were 14 guests on this forum. Is that not odd.

[BroncoLifer]

Well, back to the title of this thread.....so many choices for who should be next. I'd be OK with any of Bashar al-Assad, Kim Jong-il, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad or Fidel Castro.

[cutthemdown]

What a mess. The Arab spring is really just military taking over Egypt and Islamic rebels Libya. The problem is that America had made some decent headway with those 2 countries and they had played ball in the war on terrorism. The way Obama just turned his back on them will now mean no mideast countries will play ball with America.

[cutthemdown]

Yep both bin laden and ghadafi dead while obama is prez.yet the presidential candidates on the right will still claim that obama is weak.bank on it

Except Gaddafi turned over his nuke program, gave us the Iranian centrifuge design, which helped us thwart Iran. It's Iran and Syria we should have overthrown not Libya and Egypt who helped the regions stability.

Now we have war almost breaking out between Egypt and Israel, yeah great job Mr President. Are you kidding? he totally screwed up the whole region.

[Rohirrim]

What a mess. The Arab spring is really just military taking over Egypt and Islamic rebels Libya. The problem is that America had made some decent headway with those 2 countries and they had played ball in the war on terrorism. The way Obama just turned his back on them will now mean no mideast countries will play ball with America.

The game is still being played. Don't jump to conclusions. The protesters in Egypt are now moving against the army. Libya is totally up in the air. Let's wait and see.

[cutthemdown]

The game is still being played. Don't jump to conclusions. The protesters in Egypt are now moving against the army. Libya is totally up in the air. Let's wait and see.

It just seems like he lacked leadership on the whole mess IMO. Now Saudis are all pissed because it seems like we turn on you once enough people protest. You could see how Obama was told enough is enough when they let the Saudis put down the rebellion in Bahrain without a whimper.

In Egypt human rights for Christians at an all time low, so much for freedom. I just don't see any leadership from Obama and now dictators have no reason to make deals with the USA. We turn on you when it suits us. Hell Egypt was like the most stable of them all in terms of helping with Israel. Now we are closer to war then anytime since the 70's.

[mhgaffney]

You're a ****ing deluded lunatic. I was just listening to a reporter on the streets of Tripoli on NPR. Thousands of Libyans are partying in the streets. She said the streets are filled with people weeping for joy and dancing.

Why do you always find yourself defending the killers of freedom like Gaddafi, and Ahmadjihad, and Chavez, and Hamas?

You are a fool to believe anything on NPR. They have been on the Bush war bandwagon for years.

I am not defending killers. I am defending the sovereignty of nations - -something that you and the knee jerks on the OM do not understand.

I put you -- a lib'rel -- in with the knee jerks and rednecks for a reason - you failed to learn the lessons of VietNam.

Your scorch and burn politics will destroy the planet -- leave it unfit for human life.

Peace is a path -- not the goal.

[mhgaffney]

Except Gaddafi turned over his nuke program, gave us the Iranian centrifuge design, which helped us thwart Iran. It's Iran and Syria we should have overthrown not Libya and Egypt who helped the regions stability.

Now we have war almost breaking out between Egypt and Israel, yeah great job Mr President. Are you kidding? he totally screwed up the whole region.

As I've indicated -- the west repaid Khadaffy with treachery -- something we are very good at.

His mistake was giving up his nuke program.

[cutthemdown]

Actually the goal is survival and power, and peace and war are the tools.

[Rohirrim]

You are a fool to believe anything on NPR. They have been on the Bush war bandwagon for years.

I am not defending killers. I am defending the sovereignty of nations - -something that you and the knee jerks on the OM do not understand.

I put you -- a lib'rel -- in with the knee jerks and rednecks for a reason - you failed to learn the lessons of VietNam.

Your scorch and burn politics will destroy the planet -- leave it unfit for human life.

Peace is a path -- not the goal.

NPR is in on it too, eh Kaczynski? :rofl:

[mhgaffney]

I notice none of you hypocrites put the Saudi royal family or Kuwait or Bahrain on the list for regime change.

Why not? These are among the most repressive regimes on earth.

Answer: Because you get your world view from FOX and CNN -- which do not report the crimes of these dictators because they are US allies.

In short - -you all are exactly as indicated -- a bunch of walking automatons -- a bundle of programmed responses.

So sad -- the land of the brave and the home of the free is the most brainwashed public on earth.

[cutthemdown]

As I've indicated -- the west repaid Khadaffy with treachery -- something we are very good at.

His mistake was giving up his nuke program.

I agree its like we never learn. Why would any country want to deal with Obama now? or any President after? They will say that once you are done with me you will let the people revolt, then cut me off from the world with sanctions, then let them drag my body through the streets.

How is this good policy. You can't fix 100 yrs of us not caring about how the people live in the mideast by just turning on the leaders and letting them be killed. Now we have tons of problems because it really give Israels hardliners all the ammo they need to go crazy. Not to mention how duplicitous it makes us once again. Trust me we would never support a Saudi overthrow, in fact we would go to war to help them.

Just bad bad Mideast policy by Obama. We were never fair and just in that policy, but Obama has taken it to another level of failure.

[Rohirrim]

As I've indicated -- the west repaid Khadaffy with treachery -- something we are very good at.

His mistake was giving up his nuke program.

Repaid him for what? Munich? Lockerbie?

[cutthemdown]

Repaid him for what? Munich? Lockerbie?

He did some bad ****, in the end though, at the time, he was playing ball. All your point hammers home is he was better off bombing us then playing ball.

[ant1999e]

Relax, Nancy. Everyone bashes Obama every chance they get, usually with a healthy dose of spin, ignorance and disinformation. I think it's fair to point out here that his policy worked, right? And to juxtapose it against the massive mistakes of the previous administration which people like you blindly supported?

Then I'll be anxiously waiting for your criticizm of Obama and his failed economic policies.

[Arkie]

How come his name gets spelled differently every single post?

Muammar, Moammar, Mu'ammar, or Moamar? Then there's the "al-" before his last name. Which can also be spelled "el-". It can be capitalized or not, It can be followed by a hyphen or not. Sometimes its one word like Algathafi.

[UltimateHoboW/Shotgun]

Actually the goal is survival and power, and peace and war are the tools.

QFT and rep

[Spider]

Your problem is you have internalized the US exceptionalism nonsense. That God appointed the US to intervene everywhere on behalf of justice and righteousness.

The problem is that when we do -- we always make things much worse.

There is no evidence that the rebels in Libya have the support of a majority of the Libyan people. On the contrary -- everything I have seen points to a small disgruntled minority that NATO armed and supported with air power -- to create mayhem - and get rid of Khadaffy.

So that western interests could go in there and get the oil.

The losers here are the Libyan people. Whatever you think of Khadaffy -- he plowed large amounts of cash from oil back into his country -- and spread it around the region in development projects.

You ned to explain why -- if Khadaffy was so evil -- the Libyan people had the highest per capita income in Africa.

You are a closed minded liberal boor. A loud mouth -- with nothing between your ears.

maybe you should send flowers or something ......

[Bronx33]

Gaddafi got what he deserved this should have happened along time ago.

[UltimateHoboW/Shotgun]

And they say the right is eating itself. LOL

[gunns]

He did some bad ****, in the end though, at the time, he was playing ball. All your point hammers home is he was better off bombing us then playing ball.

I don't know, maybe his people remembered the bad and the playing ball didn't give them that warm, fuzzy feeling. Too bad if we turned on him, pay backs a bitch. I think it's great in these country's the people are taking care of their own business. Whether it will be good or bad is up to them, not us for once.

[Tombstone RJ]

Relax, Nancy. Everyone bashes Obama every chance they get, usually with a healthy dose of spin, ignorance and disinformation. I think it's fair to point out here that his policy worked, right? And to juxtapose it against the massive mistakes of the previous administration which people like you blindly supported?

you're jumping to conclussions. just because Gaddafi is dead does not mean everything is ok. there's a huge power vacuum now and we have not seen the end of bloodshed. Also, what happens if an even worse dictator now replaces him?

Iraq sucks but it's trying to transition to a democracy. the jury is still out for sure but its way more stable now that Libya.

[orinjkrush]

i'd like to see the House of Saud die miserably, and pandemically.

they owe it to the world.

[Requiem]

My first Halo 2 usertag was after him. RIP.

[Rigs11]

you're jumping to conclussions. just because Gaddafi is dead does not mean everything is ok. there's a huge power vacuum now and we have not seen the end of bloodshed. Also, what happens if an even worse dictator now replaces him?

Iraq sucks but it's trying to transition to a democracy. the jury is still out for sure but its way more stable now that Libya.mission accomplished?:rofl:

[TonyR]

...the jury is still out for sure but its way more stable now that Libya.

Several years, tens of thousands of lives, and hundreds of billions of U.S. tax dollars later one would certainly hope so.

[barryr]

Funny, the bozo liberals like to play the Iraq card despite the fact the 2 presidents, (not to mention many democrats before the 2000 election even happened), they tried to elect instead of Bush stated that Hussein was danger and needed to be replaced since had weapons, which suddenly disappeared by the way. Bush "lied" according to them, but the democrats that stated the same things..um, well, let's pretend it didn't happen and they didn't say that. The magical world of the liberal where they can never be wrong since can play pretend it didn't happen because they said so.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Funny, the bozo liberals like to play the Iraq card despite the fact the 2 presidents, (not to mention many democrats before the 2000 election even happened), they tried to elect instead of Bush stated that Hussein was danger and needed to be replaced since had weapons, which suddenly disappeared by the way. Bush "lied" according to them, but the democrats that stated the same things..um, well, let's pretend it didn't happen and they didn't say that. The magical world of the liberal where they can never be wrong since can play pretend it didn't happen because they said so.

But genius: Of those presidents you mentioned, yours was the only one who thought invading and occupying Iraq was a good idea. Not even Poppy Bush agreed with that.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

http://www.bartcop.com/gadaffy-thats-all.jpg

[Rohirrim]

Oddly enough, there were about a hundred Libyans on the steps of the State Capitol building in Denver tonight waving flags and celebrating.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

https://s-external.ak.fbcdn.net/safe_image.php?d=AQCfRJ5KVoZekSI-&w=90&h=90&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.addictinginfo.org%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2011%2F10%2FLINDSEY-GRAHAM-Getty.jpg (http://www.addictinginfo.org/2011/10/20/republican-senator-lindsey-graham-supports-infrastructure-spending-but-not-for-america-for-libya/)Republican Senator Lindsey Graham Supports Infrastructure Spending But Not For America, For Libya (http://www.addictinginfo.org/2011/10/20/republican-senator-lindsey-graham-supports-infrastructure-spending-but-not-for-america-for-libya/)

They have no interest in helping the masses of struggling Americans because they stupidly believe it will help them win the election and get the black man they hate so much out of the Oval Office.

[baja]

Funny, the bozo liberals like to play the Iraq card despite the fact the 2 presidents, (not to mention many democrats before the 2000 election even happened), they tried to elect instead of Bush stated that Hussein was danger and needed to be replaced since had weapons, which suddenly disappeared by the way. Bush "lied" according to them, but the democrats that stated the same things..um, well, let's pretend it didn't happen and they didn't say that. The magical world of the liberal where they can never be wrong since can play pretend it didn't happen because they said so.


The overlords that control those claiming to be liberals as well as those claiming to be conservatives have many a laugh at your expense.

Pist they are the same thing, just look at the track record of Reagan, Bush I, Clinton, Junior and the half black half lizard intellectual teleprompter reader.

Oh I forgot So Cal's boy Millhouse.

[baja]

Then I'll be anxiously waiting for your criticizm of Obama and his failed economic policies.

I don't see anyone on this forum defending Obama, do you? If so who?

[The Lone Bolt]

You are a fool to believe anything on NPR. They have been on the Bush war bandwagon for years.

Have al Jazeera also been on the Bush War Bandwagon for years? 'Cause they are reporting the exact same things the US media are reporting.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2011/10/20111020161338365577.html

[Requiem]

http://i46.tinypic.com/2qv72mo.jpg

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Just bad bad Mideast policy by Obama. We were never fair and just in that policy, but Obama has taken it to another level of failure.

Geeeezus, you Right Wingers are pathetic! If all these terrorists were going down under Bush, you'd be salivating all over his jock strap.

Hypocrisy truly defined.

[cutthemdown]

Geeeezus, you Right Wingers are pathetic! If all these terrorists were going down under Bush, you'd be salivating all over his jock strap.

Hypocrisy truly defined.

I have no problem with America taking down it's enemies. The bad news is Egypt and Libya actually sort of played ball with us. Make it Iran and Syria and yeah, that would be better.

All this does is let Iran and Syria gain influence, sour the relationship between Egypt and Israel, and worst of all ruin Americas chances of getting dictators and strongmen to play ball with us. Its hurt our relationship with the Saudis. Us letting them crack down in Bahrain was them saying enough is enough and America telling the rest of the world we only do what is easy to do in the mideast from now on.

Meanwhile Iran can in to Libya and took 20 thousand shoulder fired missiles to Africa. Why because Obama and NATO let it happen. Obama better hope one of those missiles doesn't end up taking down a jetliner.

Meanwhile Egypt is now a military dictatorship that is less friendly to Israel. How is that some sort of Arab freedom movement. The media a joke, they aren't reporting what is really going on in Egypt.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

All this does is let Iran and Syria gain influence, sour the relationship between Egypt and Israel, and worst of all ruin Americas chances of getting dictators and strongmen to play ball with us.

Nonsense! This kind of ignorance and reasoning is exactly what I'm talking about.
I guess Bush convinced them all to "play ball with us" by attacking and invading Afghanistan and Iraq, right? Because you never said anything negative about that back when.

Its hurt our relationship with the Saudis. .
Uh, no it doesn't. I work/worked in Saudi Arabia, most people don't give a sh*t that Libya fell or that Yemen has helped us. The ones that do have hated us for years.
And the Saudi government well understands that they have to rid themselves of the terrorist haven moniker to participate in modernizing their country going forward.

[cutthemdown]

Nonsense! This kind of ignorance and reasoning is exactly what I'm talking about.
I guess Bush convinced them all to "play ball with us" by attacking and invading Afghanistan and Iraq, right? Because you never said anything negative about that back when.

Uh, no it doesn't. I work/worked in Saudi Arabia, most people don't give a sh*t that Libya fell or that Yemen has helped us. The ones that do have hated us for years.
And the Saudi government well understands that they have to rid themselves of the terrorist haven moniker to participate in modernizing their country going forward.

Now Iraq and Afghanistan fit our message. If you do not play ball you get attacked. Libya and Egyptian govt for the most part were playing ball. Now there is no incentive to play ball, or at least that incentive is murkier.

[Bronx33]

Oddly enough, there were about a hundred Libyans on the steps of the State Capitol building in Denver tonight waving flags and celebrating.


good for them..

[Bronx33]

But genius: Of those presidents you mentioned, yours was the only one who thought invading and occupying Iraq was a good idea. Not even Poppy Bush agreed with that.


http://www.freedomagenda.com/iraq/wmd_quotes.html

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

http://www.freedomagenda.com/iraq/wmd_quotes.html

Nowhere in the quote you furnished does he say anything about invading and occupying Iraq.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Geeeezus, you Right Wingers are pathetic! If all these terrorists were going down under Bush, you'd be salivating all over his jock strap.

Hypocrisy truly defined.

Yep.

When their hero Dumbya was getting us into these quagmires, the right-wing pinheads on this board were all ready to acquiesce to the idea of a "GWOT" whose end we "might not see in our lifetime," etc.

[Bronco_Beerslug]

Now Iraq and Afghanistan fit our message.Explain that. What is "our" message?

[Bronx33]

Nowhere in the quote you furnished does he say anything about invading and occupying Iraq.


How else was he going to be removed? telepathy? maybe a sharply worded letter? maybe reasoning would have worked.

And nice job driving right past all those lovely quotes by your heros its what you do best.

[peacepipe]

there was no need to get rid of saddam, he was never a threat to the USA. which is what made iraq one big f ck up all thanks to GWB.

This whole "he was a bad guy crap" is the rights way of rationalising there screw up.

[cutthemdown]

Explain that. What is "our" message?

The message should be cooperate and we support you, don't and you end up like Saddam. But instead Obama took out 2 leaders who helped the USA maintain control in the region. It's very simple really. Now we have a new military dictatorship in Egypt and total chaos in Libya.

[baja]

This is all about oil and power and it's always been about oil which = power. It's what every act by the USA and England is about in the Middle East

[Bronx33]

there was no need to get rid of saddam, he was never a threat to the USA. which is what made iraq one big f ck up all thanks to GWB.

This whole "he was a bad guy crap" is the rights way of rationalising there screw up.


Read the link i provided LA which he refused to read.

[Tombstone RJ]

http://www.freedomagenda.com/iraq/wmd_quotes.html

There's one statesman's name who is not anywere in this link. Ron Paul.

[Tombstone RJ]

there was no need to get rid of saddam, he was never a threat to the USA. which is what made iraq one big f ck up all thanks to GWB.

This whole "he was a bad guy crap" is the rights way of rationalising there screw up.

according to BO in that link, Saddam was a bad, bad, bad guy... but you go on with your bad self.

[W*GS]

and worst of all ruin Americas chances of getting dictators and strongmen to play ball with us.

Do you think the victims of these dictators and strongmen get nice warm feelings about the US when we prop up and support said dictators and strongmen?

What is it with you that your view of US foreign policy can be summed up as Uncle Sam telling every other citizen of every other country to **** off?

[Bronx33]

There's one statesman's name who is not anywere in this link. Ron Paul.


Ron was against it hes also against doing nothing about iran getting nuclear bombs and delivery systems thats where he has me on the fence.

[Bronx33]

Do you think the victims of these dictators and strongmen get nice warm feelings about the US when we prop up and support said dictators and strongmen?

What is it with you that your view of US foreign policy can be summed up as Uncle Sam telling every other citizen of every other country to **** off?


Iam sure the Iraqis are pissed saddam is dead now.

[Tombstone RJ]

Ron was against it hes also against doing nothing about iran getting nuclear bombs and delivery systems thats where he has me on the fence.

He's opposed war. If Iran attacks the USA, then he will not oppose war with Iran. He also knows that congress has to be the ones that vote for going to war. It can't be crap coming from the executive branch. It has to be voted on.

Now if Iran develops nuclear weapons and uses them against the USA (I seriously doubt they'd be stupid enough to ever do this) than you damn right Paul would go to war. Paul may even be willing to go to war with Iran if they orchestrate a direct terrorist attack against the USA. But be very assured that he would allow congress to vote on it first.

He's right.

[Bronx33]

He's opposed war. If Iran attacks the USA, then he will not oppose war with Iran. He also knows that congress has to be the ones that vote for going to war. It can't be crap coming from the executive branch. It has to be voted on.

Now if Iran develops nuclear weapons and uses them against the USA (I seriously doubt they'd be stupid enough to ever do this) than you damn right Paul would go to war. Paul may even be willing to go to war with Iran if they orchestrate a direct terrorist attack against the USA. But be very assured that he would allow congress to vote on it first.

He's right.


I am with ya but being proactive in keeping the lunatics in iran from going nuclear and using them on anybody ( and i dont care who it is) should be a concern now vs later i just think its mistake to let iran have anything that destructive.

[cutthemdown]

He's opposed war. If Iran attacks the USA, then he will not oppose war with Iran. He also knows that congress has to be the ones that vote for going to war. It can't be crap coming from the executive branch. It has to be voted on.

Now if Iran develops nuclear weapons and uses them against the USA (I seriously doubt they'd be stupid enough to ever do this) than you damn right Paul would go to war. Paul may even be willing to go to war with Iran if they orchestrate a direct terrorist attack against the USA. But be very assured that he would allow congress to vote on it first.

He's right.

Sorry but after they nuke hits is too late. We need a President willing to take them on before they get a nuke.

[cutthemdown]

Do you think the victims of these dictators and strongmen get nice warm feelings about the US when we prop up and support said dictators and strongmen?

What is it with you that your view of US foreign policy can be summed up as Uncle Sam telling every other citizen of every other country to **** off?

How about all the Christians killed in Egypt lately? Do they get nice warm feelings? Egypt under a military dictatorship how is that getting rid of a strongman?

[W*GS]

How about all the Christians killed in Egypt lately? Do they get nice warm feelings? Egypt under a military dictatorship how is that getting rid of a strongman?

Egypt needs to have a democratic government, certainly.

Propping up Mubarak isn't that.

'Course, if Egyptians elect an Islamic regime, do we then have the right to go in there and bomb the **** out of 'em?

[Rohirrim]

I'm afraid the world may be forced to do something about Egypt. We can't just sit on our hands while they eradicate religious minorities. It's genocide.

[cutthemdown]

Egypt needs to have a democratic government, certainly.

Propping up Mubarak isn't that.

'Course, if Egyptians elect an Islamic regime, do we then have the right to go in there and bomb the **** out of 'em?

Ummm an enemy is an enemy regardless of how they got to power. But if they were peaceful with the USA then yeah I could care less if they want to be Islamic. That is just a code word for oppression of all other religions, women, gays, and people who don't want to **** goats.

[cutthemdown]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/egypt/8817385/Dozens-killed-in-Egypt-as-Coptic-Christians-protest-church-attacks.html

there is your Egypt now, where Christians protesting no life, no freedoms, get ran down by armored personell carriers probably given to them by the USA Billion a yr.

[cutthemdown]

America should tell Egypt be friendly with Egypt, keep all security agreements, no crackdown on Christians, or we will cut you off from our money completely.

So this is an Obama victory huh? maybe he isn't Christian after all.

[mhgaffney]

Ummm an enemy is an enemy regardless of how they got to power. But if they were peaceful with the USA then yeah I could care less if they want to be Islamic. That is just a code word for oppression of all other religions, women, gays, and people who don't want to **** goats.

So Cut has made his view clear -- Muslims are people who *** goats.

This is worse than racist. It's just plain retarded.

[mhgaffney]

So it appears they executed Khaddafy.

Is this even being reported in the US media?
MHG


Savagery or the rule of law?
Captured: The Last Moments of Colonel Gaddafi

By The Telegraph

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article29483.htm

[barryr]

Libya to introduce Islamic Law, so we'll see just how better things are there now. Egypt has not turned out so great, which much of the media has chosen to ignore for some reason.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8844819/Libyas-liberation-interim-ruler-unveils-more-radical-than-expected-plans-for-Islamic-law.html

[DenverBrit]

So it appears they executed Khaddafy.

Is this even being reported in the US media?
MHG


Savagery or the rule of law?
Captured: The Last Moments of Colonel Gaddafi

By The Telegraph

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article29483.htm


I'm shocked, he was beloved by his people.

The BBC did live interviews with the fighters who captured him and his being shot in the stomach was reported then.

[DenverBrit]

Libya to introduce Islamic Law, so we'll see just how better things are there now. Egypt has not turned out so great, which much of the media has chosen to ignore for some reason.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8844819/Libyas-liberation-interim-ruler-unveils-more-radical-than-expected-plans-for-Islamic-law.html

Then read something other than your local paper. Egypt has been well covered recently.

http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/international/countriesandterritories/egypt/index.html

[Rohirrim]

So it appears they executed Khaddafy.

Is this even being reported in the US media?
MHG


Savagery or the rule of law?
Captured: The Last Moments of Colonel Gaddafi

By The Telegraph

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article29483.htm

Gaddafi spent every day of his life earning that kind of death.

Many are wiping a tear away for the loss of one of their favorite jew killers.

I'm not.

Looks like justice to me.

[Garcia Bronco]

Libya is now oing to operate under Shiara (sP) law. Another religious government.

[Rohirrim]

Libya is now oing to operate under Shiara (sP) law. Another religious government.

So does Saudi Arabia.

[L.A. BRONCOS FAN]

Then read something other than your local paper. Egypt has been well covered recently.

http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/international/countriesandterritories/egypt/index.html

I doubt he even reads his local paper.

Odds are he's exclusively a Fox News man. Ha!

[DenverBrit]

Libya is now oing to operate under Shiara (sP) law. Another religious government.

Religion is fine for some, it just doesn't belong in government.

[DenverBrit]

I doubt he even reads his local paper.

Odds are he's exclusively a Fox News man. Ha!

Then he shouldn't be puzzled by the lack of news coverage....especially about those furriners. ;D

[Tombstone RJ]

Libya to introduce Islamic Law, so we'll see just how better things are there now. Egypt has not turned out so great, which much of the media has chosen to ignore for some reason.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8844819/Libyas-liberation-interim-ruler-unveils-more-radical-than-expected-plans-for-Islamic-law.html

This is one of the reasons I love Israel, they are so far ahead of the game. They told Bush not to invade Iraq because it would cause instibility in the region, their argument was it's better to have to deal with the devil you know than to have to deal with the devil you don't know. Sound logic.

Israel and Egypt have never really gotten along, but again, Israel is not entirely happy with what is happening in Egypt because who knows who will eventually end up in power. Again, it's better to deal with the devil you know rather than deal with the devil you don't know.

Same with Libya

Certain peeps on this message board love to villify Israel but the reality of the situation is that they can deal with oppressive regimes around them much better than they can deal with a bunch of Islamic extremist hell bent on killing everyone who doesn't side with them.

Mmmmm....

[cutthemdown]

This is one of the reasons I love Israel, they are so far ahead of the game. They told Bush not to invade Iraq because it would cause instibility in the region, their argument was it's better to have to deal with the devil you know than to have to deal with the devil you don't know. Sound logic.

Israel and Egypt have never really gotten along, but again, Israel is not entirely happy with what is happening in Egypt because who knows who will eventually end up in power. Again, it's better to deal with the devil you know rather than deal with the devil you don't know.

Same with Libya

Certain peeps on this message board love to villify Israel but the reality of the situation is that they can deal with oppressive regimes around them much better than they can deal with a bunch of Islamic extremist hell bent on killing everyone who doesn't side with them.

Mmmmm....

The Egyptian uprising probably the worst thing that could have happened for the region. Iraq actually fired missiles at Israel so Saddam being gone removes that threat forever. On the border with Egypt though tensions higher then anytime in last 10 yrs. Now Libya going to be an Islamic state. There will never be free and fair elections in either country. Egypt now a military dictatorship and they performed the coup without firing a shot.

[Bronx33]

Anybody see how gadaffis two idiot rich kids are whining about his treatment?

[mhgaffney]

Gaddafi spent every day of his life earning that kind of death.

Many are wiping a tear away for the loss of one of their favorite jew killers.

I'm not.

Looks like justice to me.

Your hypocrisy is a reliable feature of the OM. And your blood lust.

There is nothing worse than a liberal who supports progressive ideas at home -- while cheering US backed mayhem abroad. We expect this of the righties. But liberals claim the high ground -- which makes it especially repulsive.

You say Khaddafi was a killer who got his just reward -- but the real story is more complex and nuanced. We know that Khadaffi executed his enemies. In fact, he hired ex-CIA agents to do his dirty work.

But Khadaffi was not all bad. He did a lot of good in Africa -- which is why even now he has many supporters. Check out this article -- which details Khadaffi's accomplishments -- which were considerable. See bolded section.

When you finish reading it -- you should be asking: Why did it appear in Pravda? Why not in the US press?

Face it -- you and most Americans are brainwashed. Only barbarians cheer when a man is sodomized with a knife -- then killed.

MHG

The Murder of Gaddafi, and the War Crimes of Western Powers

By Peter Baofu, Ph.D.

October 25, 2011 "Information Clearing House" -- - -The jubilant reaction of Western powers and the foes of Muammar Gaddafi to his barbaric murder on October 20, 2011 raises some serious questions about war crimes committed by the Western-backed National Transitional Council (NTC) fighters and NATO forces.

There are two serious violations of international law here, namely, (1) in relation to the Third Geneva Convention in 1929 and (2) in relation to the UN Security Council Resolution #1973 in 2011. Let me explain first (1) the Geneva Convention and then (2) the UN Resolution hereafter.

(1) The first violation of international law concerns the Third Geneva Convention in 1929, which offers rights to prisoners of war (POWs), such that POWs have certain rights to be protected. Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov rightly said on October 21, 2011 that, "in compliance with international law, the moment that a party to an armed conflict is captured, special procedures should be applied to him or her, including assistance, as well as a ban on killing such a person."

But this right was violated, when Gaddafi was captured alive (as POW) and was then repetitively verbally and physically abused before being shot dead shortly after. As "testified by the grainy mobile phone footage seen by the world of the former leader, bloodied and dazed, being dragged along by NTC fighters" in a gruesome way, "Gaddafi can be heard in one video saying 'God forbids this' several times, as slaps from the crowd [of NTC fighters] rain down on his head," as reported by Rania El Gamal for Reuters on October 23.

Then, he was executed by a young NTC fighter named Sanad al-Sadek al-Ureibi, who claimed that he shot Gaddafi after capture, because he did not want him alive; and other fighters celebrated with him after the summary execution. Worse, his dead body was then publicly displayed in a commercial freezer at a shopping center for more celebration.

This act of Western-backed NTC fighters is not only criminal but also barbaric. The foes of Gaddafi may argue that he deserves this fate, but two wrongs do not make a right (which is a well-known logical fallacy), and the answer to criminality is not more criminality. This blatant violation of the Geneva Convention then led Christof Heyns, the UN Special Rapporteur on extra-judicial executions, to charge on October 21 that "the manner of the deposed Libyan leader's killing could be a war crime," in a report by RT on October 22.

This criminal act by Western-supported NTC fighters is not just restricted to the case of Gaddafi's death but also be extended to the murder of his son (and others in the group). For instance, Gaddafi's son, Mutassim Gaddafi, was captured alive, together with his father, and, in a video released by NTC fighters, he was shown to be "alive in custody, and even casually smoking a cigarette" in a room (surrounded by armed NTC fighters), but in a few moments later, "other images show him dead with gunshot wounds to his neck and abdomen" in the same room, in a report by RT on October 21.

A technical question here is who should be responsible for this criminal act. There are at least five legal possibilities, namely, (a) the individuals who physically abused him and/or pulled the trigger, like Sanad al-Sadek al-Ureibi and others to be identified, (b) the specific unit of NTC fighters which participated in the capture of Gaddafi and his group, (c) the NTC leadership, (d) NATO forces because of their participation (or complicity) in the attack which led to the capture (and the subsequent murder), and (e) certain leaders of Western powers who have given wholehearted support to NTC from the start to encourage the violence against the regime.

It is not surprising that, at the beginning, the NTC tried to cover up the criminal killing by making up fictional stories and blaming others instead. For instance, NTC leader Mahmoud Jibril, first tried to defend NTC by making a dubious public statement to the press that Gaddafi was killed in a crossfire and was shot by one of his own loyalists. But this cover-up was questioned later, even by a senior member of NTC, Waheed Burshan, who said on October 22: "We found that he was alive and then he was dead. And as far as we can tell, there was no fight" (crossfire).

Even "British MP Jeremy Corbyn said that, as Gaddafi was captured alive, he should have been treated as prisoner of war, interrogated and put on trial," but "it looks that there was an element of mob rule in this, and he was indeed killed in the back of the truck," as reported by RT on October 20.

So now, both "the UN Human Rights Office and Amnesty International are calling for an investigation into Gaddafi's death as it raises concerns over what may be the unlawful killing of a prisoner," as reported by RT on October 22. U.N. human rights spokesman Rupert Colville even said on October 20 that he found it very disturbing when "you see someone who has been captured alive and then you see the same person dead....Summary executions are strictly illegal under any circumstances. It's different if someone is killed in combat....But if something else has happened, if someone is captured and then deliberately killed, then that is a very serious matter," as reported by Stephanie Nebehay for Reuters on October 21.

Unfortunately, because of the Western dominance in international legal bodies, any prosecution of war crimes committed by Western forces and their allies is very unlikely, as "Benjamin Barber, an analyst at a US think tank, does not expect anyone will be held accountable for the colonel's death," as reported by RT on October 22.

Now that Gaddafi was dead, the most tragic thing is that this gruesome murder "will cast doubt on the promises by Libya's new rulers to respect human rights and prevent reprisals. It would also embarrass Western governments which gave their wholehearted backing to the NTC," as reported by Rania El Gamal for Reuters on October 23.

Even British MP Jeremy Corbyn soberly warned that "this really does raise some question marks about the command and discipline of the NTC forces and what Libya is going to be like, not just tomorrow, but next month, next year and the next ten years."

Furthermore, according to Shirin Sagedhi, "the gruesome and public killing of Gaddafi was insulting to the people of Libya and the people of the region, as well as the 'idea that democratic forces would brutally kill someone like that,'" in a report by RT on October 22.

(2) And the second violation of international law concerns the UN Security Council Resolution #1973 in 2011, which set up a "no-fly zone" above Libya but did not authorize NATO forces to carry out an attack on any group who were not harming anyone but were fleeing from being attacked instead. Indeed, it was a French jet which "fired on Gaddafi convoy" when it was trying to flee from the ferocious attack by NTC fighers, as confirmed by French defense chief and reported by RT on October 20.

In this specific case, Gaddafi and his few bodyguards were under attack by NTC fighters when they were fleeing Sirte in a convoy, but NATO helped the NTC fighters and carried out an aerial attack (by a French jet) on Gaddafi's convoy (which led to Gaddafi's capture).

But this violates international law, in regard to the UN Security Council Resolution #1973, since, as Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov on Friday rightly pointed out, "the attack on Gaddafi's convoy was directly at odds with the agreed task of guaranteeing a no-fly zone," because "in this specific case one cannot speak of protecting the lives of civilians, either because the convoy did not attack anyone" and was trying instead to escape from the ferocious attack by NTC fighters, or because there was no civilian around to protect (as an excuse) in the first place.

Russia's NATO envoy, Dmitry Rogozin, therefore accused NATO of being "directly involved in the operation to kill the former Libyan leader," since "apparently there were orders that oriented the military servicemen who are in Libya and that directed them to ensure the physical elimination of Gaddafi," as reported by RT on October 21.

Instead of showing respect towards international law, Western powers reacted joyfully to the killing, as shown by the elation of U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, who, when "learned about the death of Muammar Gaddafi via an SMS message" in an interview "filmed by CBS NEWS," exclaimed "Wow!" and thus joyfully said, "We came, we saw, he died!," as reported by Pravda on October 21. And her boss, President Obama, triumphantly announced that, "without putting a single U.S. service member on the ground, we achieved our objectives" of getting rid of Gaddafi and setting up a new regime.

In reaction to this Western joy over the killing, Rogozin thus observed that "the Western elation over the death of former Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi could have sadistic grounds," as he thus added: "The faces of the leaders of 'world democracies' are so happy, as if they remembered how they hanged stray cats in basements in their childhoods," as reported by RT on October 21.

In this way, Western mainstream media did not waste time to engage in spinning the whole murder into one of bashing Gaddafi and his historical legacy, without telling the rest of the world about the Western complicity in supporting Gaddafi in all these years of dictatorial rule.

For instance, only some years ago, "former British Prime Minister Tony Blair had no qualms doing business with Gaddafi and Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi got cozy with him at a United Nations Summit in Rome," as reported by RT on October 21.

In the case of the U.S., the thoughtful comment by Matthew Rothschild on October 21 is worth mentioning: "The hypocrisy of the U.S. position could hardly be greater. In 2003, the Bush Administration rehabilitated Qaddafi, who became an ally of the United States in the 'war on terror.' In fact, the CIA used Qaddafi's intelligence service to torture detainees that the U.S. sent over to Libya. The CIA 'rendered' eight or nine detainees to Qaddafi's intelligence service, and sent questions along with for the torturers to ask, according to Human Rights Watch, in an interview with Democracy Now. The CIA may even have had agents present during some of the questioning. In 2008, Condoleezza Rice visited Qaddafi in Libya. The next year, Obama shook his hand, and John McCain offered him arms. When it was convenient for Washington to support Qaddafi, it did so. When it was convenient to attack him, it did so. But the Obama administration didn't attack Bahrain when it cracked down on people fighting for democracy against that kingdom. No, Washington even let Saudi Arabia, another kingdom, invade Bahrain to help put down the nonviolent uprising."

Many who do not know the history of modern Libya are not aware of the historical contributions of Muammar Gaddafi to his people and the region, even when he has his own failures. Consider, for instance, the following five important contributions by Gaddafi to his country and the region:

(a) He envisioned "the United States of Africa" and thus contributed to the formation of the African Union. In fact, "the African Union is basically the creation of Muammar Gaddafi, who saw it as a vessel for a stronger Africa," as reported by RT on October 20

(b) He succeeded in holding Libya together, which, according to Shirin Sagedhi, was previously fragmented by different "tribes and ethnicities."

(c) He transformed Libya to have "one of the highest GDPs per capita in Africa and...to provide an extensive level of social security, particularly in the fields of housing and education," in a way that many sub-Saharan countries in Africa could only dream of, in the article on Libya by Wikipedia.

(d) He managed to avoid being dominated by the Soviet Union or the U.S. during the Cold War by masterfully playing the Soviet Union against the U.S. without being a puppet of the former. After the collapse of the Soviet Union at the end of the Cold War, he continued to fight against Western domination in the region and thus developed bad blood with Western powers.

(e) He overthrew the Kingdom of Libya in a bloodless military coup against King Idris in 1969 and thus brought Libya into the modern era (from monarchic feudalism).

All these achievements are no small feats for a ruler of a small country with only a few million people and thus have allowed Gaddafi to rule for 42 years.

This does not mean that Gaddafi has no failures. Surely, there are good examples to consider, like his personal vanity, his abuse of power, his ruthlessness, and the like. But who has no failures, for a man with his historical status in the modern era?

But all these achievements are now forgotten, as the West had finished using him, and Western mainstream media is now spinning his historical legacy, in accordance to the dominant rhetoric of Western powers in world media.

Yet, history has its final say: Muammar Gaddafi, in the end, is a historical figure in the modern history of Africa and for that matter, the Middle East, in spite of all his personal faults. And the war crimes by Western powers and their allies help perpetuating the vicious cycle of violence and of suffering in the world.

This article was first published by Pravda

[baja]

What most don't know or more likely can't bear to conceptualize is that The United States of America herself is a now a tool of an unspeakable plan by people that are very unlike you and I.

[Rohirrim]

Your hypocrisy is a reliable feature of the OM. And your blood lust.



Like I said, some mourn the death of one of their favorite jew killers.

This does not mean that Gaddafi has no failures. Surely, there are good examples to consider, like his personal vanity, his abuse of power, his ruthlessness, and the like. But who has no failures, for a man with his historical status in the modern era?

Yeah, who doesn't make a little mistake now and then?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/ff/PA103cockpit4.png/250px-PA103cockpit4.png

Pravda? Ha!

[Rohirrim]

What most don't know or more likely can't bear to conceptualize is that The United States of America herself is a now a tool of an unspeakable plan by people that are very unlike you and I.

This is one of the points where we differ. I don't believe in the Rothchild cabal or the Illuminati or the Masons or any global sect of hidden puppeteers.

[baja]

This is one of the points where we differ. I don't believe in the Rothchild cabal or the Illuminati or the Masons or any global sect of hidden puppeteers.

I know and trust me I hope you are the one that is right.

[mhgaffney]

According to author William Engdahl -- the Rothchild bankers were behind the assassination of Abraham Lincoln --

I cannot verify this -- I have not yet had a chance to research it -- but I would not be surprised if it's true. Lincoln was on record stating that his biggest problem was not the rebel confederacy but the international banking cartel --

They tried to pressure Lincoln to make huge loans at interest to pay for the war. Instead Lincoln printed greenbacks. We know that JFK did the same thing -- printed Treasury Bills -- with the same result.

The Rothchild banking elite was definitely involved in the conspiracy -- and yes it was a conspiracy -- to push through the Federal Reserve Act of 1913.

Ro's problem (one of them) is that he lives in a fantasy world. He thinks there are no conspiracies. He should have learned that the real world is much stranger than sci fic.

MHG

[Rohirrim]

According to author William Engdahl -- the Rothchild bankers were behind the assassination of Abraham Lincoln --

I cannot verify this -- I have not yet had a chance to research it -- but I would not be surprised if it's true. Lincoln was on record stating that his biggest problem was not the rebel confederacy but the international banking cartel --

They tried to pressure Lincoln to make huge loans at interest to pay for the war. Instead Lincoln printed greenbacks. We know that JFK did the same thing -- printed Treasury Bills -- with the same result.

The Rothchild banking elite was definitely involved in the conspiracy -- and yes it was a conspiracy -- to push through the Federal Reserve Act of 1913.

Ro's problem (one of them) is that he lives in a fantasy world. He thinks there are no conspiracies. He should have learned that the real world is much stranger than sci fic.

MHG

One of us is. No doubt.

[baja]

According to author William Engdahl -- the Rothchild bankers were behind the assassination of Abraham Lincoln --

I cannot verify this -- I have not yet had a chance to research it -- but I would not be surprised if it's true. Lincoln was on record stating that his biggest problem was not the rebel confederacy but the international banking cartel --

They tried to pressure Lincoln to make huge loans at interest to pay for the war. Instead Lincoln printed greenbacks. We know that JFK did the same thing -- printed Treasury Bills -- with the same result.

The Rothchild banking elite was definitely involved in the conspiracy -- and yes it was a conspiracy -- to push through the Federal Reserve Act of 1913.

<b>Ro's problem (one of them) is that he lives in a fantasy world. He thinks there are no conspiracies. He should have learned that the real world is much stranger than sci fic.

MHG


I want Ro to consider that most moves made in the world are conspired.

[UltimateHoboW/Shotgun]

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/ct-met-farrakhan-20111026,0,5790121.story

Controversial Nation of Islam leader Minister Louis Farrakhan condemned the killing of Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi on Tuesday, warning that America and other Western powers will soon face severe consequences for their support of the uprising that led to the dictator's death.

"I know something of the good of Moammar Gadhafi that made me to love him as a brother and to feel a great sense of loss at his assassination," Farrakhan said during a two-hour interview with radio host Cliff Kelley on WVON-AM.

Later in the show, he said: "Gadhafi died in honor, fighting for the Libya that he believed in."



Not everybody is happy, like Obama's friend Louis Farrakhan. :oyvey:

[DenverBrit]

According to author William Engdahl -- the Rothchild bankers were behind the assassination of Abraham Lincoln --

I cannot verify this -- I have not yet had a chance to research it -- but I would not be surprised if it's true. Lincoln was on record stating that his biggest problem was not the rebel confederacy but the international banking cartel --

They tried to pressure Lincoln to make huge loans at interest to pay for the war. Instead Lincoln printed greenbacks. We know that JFK did the same thing -- printed Treasury Bills -- with the same result.

The Rothchild banking elite was definitely involved in the conspiracy -- and yes it was a conspiracy -- to push through the Federal Reserve Act of 1913.

Ro's problem (one of them) is that he lives in a fantasy world. He thinks there are no conspiracies. He should have learned that the real world is much stranger than sci fic.

MHG

Christ, your anti Semitic rants are offensive.

It is well known that the conspiracy nuts (you included), use "Rothschild" as a code for "Jewish Bankers."

You are an embarrassment, Gaffney.

Jewish "Control" of the Federal Reserve:
A Classic Anti-Semitic Myth

......In the 1950’s, anti-Semite Wickliffe Vennard published The Federal Reserve Corporation,alleging Jewish domination of the "Fed" while declaring along the way that Hitler, like Jesus, had come into power "to chase the money changers from the Temple." But the most widely cited expositor of conspiracy theories regarding Jews and the Federal Reserve is probably Eustace Mullins — a longtime anti-Semitic propagandist and a Holocaust denier who still actively peddles this propaganda. Mullins, whose book, The Federal Reserve Conspiracy, is widely promoted in the extremist netherworid, argues:

"The American people have assumed the burden of hundreds of billions of dollars of debt simply because we let a handful of enemy aliens take over our monetary system. The three most important architects of our present monetary system are ...Paul Warburg, the German Jew who wrote the Federal Reserve Act, Emmanuel Goldenweiser, the Russian Jew who supervised the details of Federal Reserve Board operations through its first thirty years, and Harry Dexter White, son of Lithuanian Jews, who set up the International Monetary Fund."

........In the literature of bigots, the name Rothschild is a trigger for the most explosive of anti-Semitic tremors, and it usually sets off a litany of other Jewish names. In his recent book Called to Serve, Col. James "Bo" Gritz, the 1992 Presidential candidate of the extremist Populist Party, charged that "eight Jewish families control the FED" (Federal Reserve System).

In fact the Federal Reserve Bank of New York —the largest and most significant of the Fed’s 12 banks — lists the banks in the Second Federal Reserve District that are members and stockholders in the New York Federal Reserve Bank. With the exception of the Chase Manhattan Bank, the institutions cited by the NARFE newsletter as allegedly owning and controlling the Federal Reserve system ("Rothschild ...Lazard Brothers ...Israel Moses Seif ...Warburg ...Lehman Brothers ...Kuhn, Loeb ...Goldman, Sachs") were not members of the Federal Reserve Bank of New York.

Read the full story on the Anti Defamation League Website...................

http://www.adl.org/special_reports/control_of_fed/print.asp

[W*GS]

gaffe needs a scapegoat for why folks don't accept his sick worldview; Jews have played that role for centuries.

[mhgaffney]

Brit cites the ADL with a straight face -- not knowing that he is being a shill.

What is offensive is Brit's incredible naivete. And of course W*gs has to weigh in with his usual diatribe.

The reality is that banksters are not nice people. The demolition of all three WTC buildings on 9/11 means there was complicity at the highest level on Wall Street. We are not talking about mid level management, here.

We are talking about the most powerful men in America. Some are Jews -- some not. But their religion is not the issue.

We live in a nation where the powerful are untouchable. Its why things ARE SO ****ED UP.

MHG

[Arkie]

Christ, your anti Semitic rants are offensive.

It is well known that the conspiracy nuts (you included), use "Rothschild" as a code for "Jewish Bankers."

You are an embarrassment, Gaffney.

Jewish "Control" of the Federal Reserve:
A Classic Anti-Semitic Myth

......In the 1950’s, anti-Semite Wickliffe Vennard published The Federal Reserve Corporation,alleging Jewish domination of the "Fed" while declaring along the way that Hitler, like Jesus, had come into power "to chase the money changers from the Temple." But the most widely cited expositor of conspiracy theories regarding Jews and the Federal Reserve is probably Eustace Mullins — a longtime anti-Semitic propagandist and a Holocaust denier who still actively peddles this propaganda. Mullins, whose book, The Federal Reserve Conspiracy, is widely promoted in the extremist netherworid, argues:

"The American people have assumed the burden of hundreds of billions of dollars of debt simply because we let a handful of enemy aliens take over our monetary system. The three most important architects of our present monetary system are ...Paul Warburg, the German Jew who wrote the Federal Reserve Act, Emmanuel Goldenweiser, the Russian Jew who supervised the details of Federal Reserve Board operations through its first thirty years, and Harry Dexter White, son of Lithuanian Jews, who set up the International Monetary Fund."

........In the literature of bigots, the name Rothschild is a trigger for the most explosive of anti-Semitic tremors, and it usually sets off a litany of other Jewish names. In his recent book Called to Serve, Col. James "Bo" Gritz, the 1992 Presidential candidate of the extremist Populist Party, charged that "eight Jewish families control the FED" (Federal Reserve System).

In fact the Federal Reserve Bank of New York —the largest and most significant of the Fed’s 12 banks — lists the banks in the Second Federal Reserve District that are members and stockholders in the New York Federal Reserve Bank. With the exception of the Chase Manhattan Bank, the institutions cited by the NARFE newsletter as allegedly owning and controlling the Federal Reserve system ("Rothschild ...Lazard Brothers ...Israel Moses Seif ...Warburg ...Lehman Brothers ...Kuhn, Loeb ...Goldman, Sachs") were not members of the Federal Reserve Bank of New York.

Read the full story on the Anti Defamation League Website...................

http://www.adl.org/special_reports/control_of_fed/print.asp

Have you ever read about the Rothschild family history? They learned centuries ago that it was more profitable to loan money to kings and queens than regular people because the loans were bigger and secured by the nation's taxes. They began loaning money to governments throughout the world by the issuing of bonds that taxpayers have to pay back with interest. It has nothing to do with their religion. That's just like playing the race card.

[DenverBrit]

Have you ever read about the Rothschild family history? They learned centuries ago that it was more profitable to loan money to kings and queens than regular people because the loans were bigger and secured by the nation's taxes. They began loaning money to governments throughout the world by the issuing of bonds that taxpayers have to pay back with interest. It has nothing to do with their religion. That's just like playing the race card.

Yes, somewhat.

Their loans to Britain were made to finance the War against Napoleon, a period that made the brothers both powerful and popular. Most historians put the 19th century as their zenith of power and influence. They are famous for the fortune they made observing the battle of Waterloo and getting the information back to London before the news broke.

It should be noted, though, that more current research (e.g., by Niall Ferguson) has shown that contemporary accounts of this incident produced by anti-Semites heavily embellished it by overestimating the value of the bond market and overlooking many of the heavy losses Rothschild incurred because of this, as he had also had large speculative bets on a protracted war. Nathan's fortune was actually built largely after the war. This also led to conspiracy theories about Rothschild ownership of the British government.


Mind-bogglingly rich Jewish bankers who funded wars and had a multinational network all the way back in the 19th century? Ripe for conspiracy theorizing! Alex Jones, Lyndon LaRouche, and many other conspiracy theorists view the Rothschilds as helping to create the framework for the New World Order.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Rothschild_family


Introduction

It seems that a consistent practice of "outrageous claim" sites is to repeat the same misinformation without research, then cross-link as though this is proof.

Let's look at an example where several sites have revealed the long-held secret owners of the Federal Reserve. Only a little research into the list would uncover the flaws.
The Alleged owners

Rothschild Bank of London

No such bank exists today.

The Rothschild name is used a lot in international banking conspiracy theories. And there was a time when the Rothschold family did have signficiant power in world banking.

But times change. Once considered one of the great fortunes of the world, the Rothschild empire is but a shadaw of it's former self. "Rothschild bankers of today being only a minor player in the global economy." -
http://webskeptic.wikidot.com/federal-reserve-ownership

[DenverBrit]

Brit cites the ADL with a straight face -- not knowing that he is being a shill.

What is offensive is Brit's incredible naivete. And of course W*gs has to weigh in with his usual diatribe.

The reality is that banksters are not nice people. The demolition of all three WTC buildings on 9/11 means there was complicity at the highest level on Wall Street. We are not talking about mid level management, here.

We are talking about the most powerful men in America. Some are Jews -- some not. But their religion is not the issue.

We live in a nation where the powerful are untouchable. Its why things ARE SO ****ED UP.

MHG

No, what's offensive is your twisted view of the facts and your rabid antisemitism.

You're a disgrace and a conspiracy nut who repeats the same old smears that have been around for decades.
You use these offensive lies in an attempt to make money from 911, then spam message boards in self promotion.

You're a pathetic little man.

[Arkie]

The Rothschild bank has been in the same place in London for over two centuries. This is from wikipedia, far from perfect, but not an "outrageous claim site."

Rothschild's headquarters in London have been continuously located at the same site over the past two centuries, at New Court, St. Swithin's Lane. In the 1950s, the firm outgrew its New Court headquarters and took up space in nearby Chetwynd House. Eventually, in October 1962, at the suggestion of Evelyn Robert de Rothschild, the firm demolished New Court and built a 6-story glass-and-steel building on the same site.
In the 1980s and 1990s, Rothschild outgrew its New Court headquarters for a second time, and now operates out of several buildings on St. Swithin's Lane, including 1 King William Street, which was originally the site of the first Gresham Club. As before, the firm has decided to demolish the New Court and build a taller 15-story glass-and-steel building, again on the same site. This third reincarnation of New Court was designed by Rem Koolhaas and will provide 20,992 square metres of office space (with associated plant, servicing and car parking). The new building will open up views of St Stephen Walbrook church from its lobby, and views of the London skyline from a roof-top "sky pavilion".[11] Construction will take place over a 30-month period from March 2008 to August 2010, so the building will be completed shortly after Rothschild celebrates its 200-year anniversary.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N_M_Rothschild_%26_Sons

Like Brit said, most historians put their zenith of power and influence in the 19th century.

"For most of the nineteenth century, N M Rothschild was part of the biggest bank in the world which dominated the international bond market. For a contemporary equivalent, one has to imagine a merger between Merrill Lynch, Morgan Stanley, J P Morgan and probably Goldman Sachs too — as well, perhaps, as the International Monetary Fund, given the nineteen-century Rothschild's role in stabilising the finances of numerous governments."

They don't have that kind of power today, but they are still a powerful global player.

The firm is particularly strong in Europe, especially in the UK, France, Germany, Italy, and the Benelux countries, in each of which Rothschild consistently holds a top league table position. Rothschild's strength also extends to Eastern Europe, Asia, and the Americas Latin America.

That's not as extreme as the conspiracy sites.

[mhgaffney]

No, what's offensive is your twisted view of the facts and your rabid antisemitism.

You're a disgrace and a conspiracy nut who repeats the same old smears that have been around for decades.
You use these offensive lies in an attempt to make money from 911, then spam message boards in self promotion.

You're a pathetic little man.

You are the nut case.

I am not anti semitic. Absolutely not. It is not antisemitic to oppose Israel's genocidal policies vis a vis the Palestinians.

Nor is it anti semitic to demand a real investigation of 9/11 and to follow the evidence wherever it leads. As of now -- the evidence is very incriminating of the Wall Street high rollers. For a plethora of reasons -- that go way beyond 9/11.

We know the SEC was shredding evidence as early as 1993- - and this continued until just months ago. What this means is that the people charged with regulating criminal fraud on Wall Street had been captured by the very people they were supposed to regulate.

The discovery of explosive residues and actual unexploded ordnance in the WTC dust points to the very same individuals.

Brit and W*gs say we can't hold them accountable because some of them happen to be Jewish.

This BS will not stand the sniff test.

[cutthemdown]

You are the nut case.

I am not anti semitic. Absolutely not. It is not antisemitic to oppose Israel's genocidal policies vis a vis the Palestinians.

Nor is it anti semitic to demand a real investigation of 9/11 and to follow the evidence wherever it leads. As of now -- the evidence is very incriminating of the Wall Street high rollers. For a plethora of reasons -- that go way beyond 9/11.

We know the SEC was shredding evidence as early as 1993- - and this continued until just months ago. What this means is that the people charged with regulating criminal fraud on Wall Street had been captured by the very people they were supposed to regulate.

The discovery of explosive residues and actual unexploded ordnance in the WTC dust points to the very same individuals.

Brit and W*gs say we can't hold them accountable because some of them happen to be Jewish.

This BS will not stand the sniff test.

You don't like the Jewish people Gaff it's very obvious. If you were in charge you would want Israel to lose its status as a Jewish state, you would want refugees to return and vote the Jews out of office, you would want all the settlements razed and Jerusalem given back to the Palestinians. The result would be a crappy life for all Jewish people in Israel. How is that not anti jew?

My good friend is Jewish and I was lucky enough to spend time with his family when they visited. I also have a good friend who is from the West Bank. He owns a liquor store now and is really a success in America. Really good story his dad was killed in the war with israel and his mom worked really hard to get him and his brother to the USA.

The problem isn't Israel, or the Palestinians, as much as it is the other Arab countries. Had they given all that money in aid instead of weapons over the last 20 yrs they could have built some decent cities.

[Arkie]

I don't want to give my money to Israel, but I have no choice. I definitely don't want to give this rich little industrial country one fifth of our entire foreign aid budget! WTF is up with that? This is wasteful spending of my money.

[mhgaffney]

You don't like the Jewish people Gaff it's very obvious. If you were in charge you would want Israel to lose its status as a Jewish state, you would want refugees to return and vote the Jews out of office, you would want all the settlements razed and Jerusalem given back to the Palestinians. The result would be a crappy life for all Jewish people in Israel. How is that not anti jew?

My good friend is Jewish and I was lucky enough to spend time with his family when they visited. I also have a good friend who is from the West Bank. He owns a liquor store now and is really a success in America. Really good story his dad was killed in the war with israel and his mom worked really hard to get him and his brother to the USA.

The problem isn't Israel, or the Palestinians, as much as it is the other Arab countries. Had they given all that money in aid instead of weapons over the last 20 yrs they could have built some decent cities.

You don't listen. You don't read. You don't know how to think.

I have JEWISH friends also -- and have had Jewish girlfriends.

Furthermore -- I love Jesus- - the Jewish rabbi.

I am sick and tired of the personal attacks on this board by racists, sadistic A-holes, and various assorted retrograde thinkers.

What is "obvious" is that you and many others on this board love to inflict violence -- and pain on others. Sad to say, our nation is a cesspool of godless degenerates.

[Rohirrim]

You don't listen. You don't read. You don't know how to think.

I have JEWISH friends also -- and have had Jewish girlfriends.

Furthermore -- I love Jesus- - the Jewish rabbi.

I am sick and tired of the personal attacks on this board by racists, sadistic A-holes, and various assorted retrograde thinkers.

What is "obvious" is that you and many others on this board love to inflict violence -- and pain on others. Sad to say, our nation is a cesspool of godless degenerates.

You're such a narcissist that you don't even realize that from your first post on this board you have been nothing but denigrating and insulting. In fact, it is rare that you post anything without including some kind of insult or attack on the intelligence of others. You know what they call it when a person thinks that only he is privileged enough to know the "real" truth? One of the qualities of a sociopath. Here's some more: Paranoid (check), grandiose sense of self (check), contemptuous of the capacities of others (check), lack of shame, remorse or guilt, (check), etc.

[The Lone Bolt]

You're such a narcissist that you don't even realize that from your first post on this board you have been nothing but denigrating and insulting. In fact, it is rare that you post anything without including some kind of insult or attack on the intelligence of others. You know what they call it when a person thinks that only he is privileged enough to know the "real" truth? One of the qualities of a sociopath. Here's some more: Paranoid (check), grandiose sense of self (check), contemptuous of the capacities of others (check), lack of shame, remorse or guilt, (check), etc.

Well Gaffney almost certainly has some Axis II stuff going on. I was thinking Paranoid Personality d/o with an Axis I RO of Schizophrenia, Paranoid Type.

[W*GS]

What is "obvious" is that you and many others on this board love to inflict violence -- and pain on others. Sad to say, our nation is a cesspool of godless degenerates.

Hypocrite.

[mhgaffney]

You're such a narcissist that you don't even realize that from your first post on this board you have been nothing but denigrating and insulting. In fact, it is rare that you post anything without including some kind of insult or attack on the intelligence of others. You know what they call it when a person thinks that only he is privileged enough to know the "real" truth? One of the qualities of a sociopath. Here's some more: Paranoid (check), grandiose sense of self (check), contemptuous of the capacities of others (check), lack of shame, remorse or guilt, (check), etc.

No -- I'm just finished throwing pearls to swine.

Too many of my footnoted articles that went unread -- or met with ridicule.

There is a limit to my patience.

MHG

[Rohirrim]

No -- I'm just finished throwing pearls to swine.

Too many of my footnoted articles that went unread -- or met with ridicule.

There is a limit to my patience.

MHG

You seem to think that footnoting is some kind of magical substantiation of your posts. I guess we'll have to throw "delusional" in there as well.

[W*GS]

There is a limit to my patience.

It must be pretty substantial, because you're getting the same dismissal now as you got when you first plopped your **** here some years ago.

[cutthemdown]

You don't listen. You don't read. You don't know how to think.

I have JEWISH friends also -- and have had Jewish girlfriends.

Furthermore -- I love Jesus- - the Jewish rabbi.

I am sick and tired of the personal attacks on this board by racists, sadistic A-holes, and various assorted retrograde thinkers.

What is "obvious" is that you and many others on this board love to inflict violence -- and pain on others. Sad to say, our nation is a cesspool of godless degenerates.

Do you disagree though Gaff?

Do you think all Palestinian refugees should be able to return from Lebanon, Jordan, to live in Israel?

Do you think Israel should give back the settlements?

Do you think Israel should give back Golan Heights.

You say you don't mind Jewish people. Maybe that is true but its obvious you hate the state of Israel.

[Tombstone RJ]

I don't want to give my money to Israel, but I have no choice. I definitely don't want to give this rich little industrial country one fifth of our entire foreign aid budget! WTF is up with that? This is wasteful spending of my money.

I have no problem with giving money to Israel, fact is, their intelligence in and of itself is worth every penny.

[mhgaffney]

You seem to think that footnoting is some kind of magical substantiation of your posts. I guess we'll have to throw "delusional" in there as well.

Humorous that you so frequently use the "narcissistic" smear -- since you are one of the biggest narcissists on the board.

Amazing how projection works.

Every time you get corrected -- you disappear from the board. How to explain this? Simple. When the going gets tough -- you run for the nearest exit.

It's really quite funny. Or would be if the issues were not so dark.

You package yourself as the big progressive -- yet you never speak out against the wars. Quite the contrary -- you cheer the US backed mayhem.

I agree with Chris Hedges -- liberalism is dead. Liberals gave us the Viet Nam war -- genocide and ecocide -- and now they (you) cheer the ongoing fiascos - -that are leading us toward a nuclear catastrophe.

MHG

[mhgaffney]

Do you disagree though Gaff?

Do you think all Palestinian refugees should be able to return from Lebanon, Jordan, to live in Israel?

Do you think Israel should give back the settlements?

Do you think Israel should give back Golan Heights.

You say you don't mind Jewish people. Maybe that is true but its obvious you hate the state of Israel.

Maybe you are beginning to separate Zionism from Judaism. Hopefully so. These are two different things.

In an age of missiles -- the Golan offers Israel no added security. Quite the contrary since the people who live in Golan are Syrians. Israel must police and occupy a foreign people -- not a happy prospect.

BTW the whole world (outside the US) agrees that Golan must be returned to Syria.

As for the right of return -- in principle I support it -- though in practice it may not be practical. At very least -- the refugees must receive compensation for the property stolen by Israel -- so these people can finally move on with their lives.

Much cheaper to pay them -- than to wage war after war.

Peace is MUCH cheaper. How come you don't get this?

MHG

[Bronx33]

Maybe you are beginning to separate Zionism from Judaism. Hopefully so. These are two different things.

In an age of missiles -- the Golan offers Israel no added security. Quite the contrary since the people who live in Golan are Syrians. Israel must police and occupy a foreign people -- not a happy prospect.

BTW the whole world (outside the US) agrees that Golan must be returned to Syria.

As for the right of return -- in principle I support it -- though in practice it may not be practical. At very least -- the refugees must receive compensation for the property stolen by Israel -- so these people can finally move on with their lives.

Much cheaper to pay them -- than to wage war after war.




MHG


Peace is MUCH cheaper. How come you don't get this?





Any war there would be decided by ground troops ultimately and that is why the golan heights are critical to Israels safety missiles or not.

[cutthemdown]

Maybe you are beginning to separate Zionism from Judaism. Hopefully so. These are two different things.

In an age of missiles -- the Golan offers Israel no added security. Quite the contrary since the people who live in Golan are Syrians. Israel must police and occupy a foreign people -- not a happy prospect.

BTW the whole world (outside the US) agrees that Golan must be returned to Syria.

As for the right of return -- in principle I support it -- though in practice it may not be practical. At very least -- the refugees must receive compensation for the property stolen by Israel -- so these people can finally move on with their lives.

Much cheaper to pay them -- than to wage war after war.

Peace is MUCH cheaper. How come you don't get this?

MHG

Why don't countries like Saudi Arabia, Iran, Syria spend more money helping them and less giving them weapons to fight Israel. I'm not arguing Israel isn't heavy handed. They are. But you make it out like Palestinians only got screwed by Israel. It was the Arab countries that couldn't deal with israel being a state that screwed it for them.